There are so many problems with this statement. For one thing we have not guaranteed our end as a species buy a long shot.

Yes, given sufficient time, our descendants will evolve as we did, but I don't see why that's a bad thing. Most evolutionary changes are environmentally and sexually motivated. So our descendants will simply adapt to their surroundings, and keep multiplying.  How is that bad?

No other species flew to the moon. No other species can plumb the depths of the oceans, cross all the land, AND fly above the clouds. No other species has mastered the power of the atom. No other species has sent objects out of the solar system and into orbit around all its planets, or planned to send some of its own to another world.

If we blew ourselves up tomorrow, how could that possibly equate to the greatest failure in the universe?

We talk about the universe as if we comprehend it, but we really don't. The universe is literally incomprehensible. No person can truly imagine the sheer vastness of it, let alone the uncountable objects within it.

The galaxy closest to the milky way, andromeda, is approximately 2.5 million light years away. The light we see from the stars closest to us was generated 2.5 million years ago. Humans weren't even around 2.5 million years ago. The genus our species belongs to had only been around a few million years, and it would be 2.3 more million years before our species diverged from other primates. Andromeda is the closest major galaxy that you can see with the naked eye. The furthest yet seen is estimated at 13.2 billion light years away. Our solar system didn't even exist when that light was first generated. To finish it off, the expansion of the universe over its 13.8 billion years ensures that we probably cannot see as much as half of it, because galaxy clusters are moving away from each other sufficiently quickly that the light doesn't move fast enough to catch up. .

Vastet says: Repeating yourself isn't going to change anything or stop me from responding . . You're just acting like a troll yourself.

Fonzie wrote:

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

As far as "young earth" goes, I don't subscribe to the "dating game" - yours or anybody elses.  "Is there a thing of which it is said, 'See this is new'?  It has been already in the ages before us."  It's only logical to think that God has made worlds MANY TIMES before - so the materials are probably MUCH older than your carbon dating ticker.

Lol. Well, at least you don't think the universe is only a few thousand years old. My view on you has slightly improved.

 

 

Vas,

Well, if you think the world has been here a long, long time but man is only going to last one "lifetime" - man must be the greatest failure of the universe.  

 

 

 

There are so many problems with this statement. For one thing we have not guaranteed our end as a species buy a long shot. Yes, given sufficient time, our descendants will evolve as we did, but I don't see why that's a bad thing. Most evolutionary changes are environmentally and sexually motivated. So our descendants will simply adapt to their surroundings, and keep multiplying. How is that bad? And if we do die out, so what? We accomplished more than any other species in all Earths history. No other species flew to the moon. No other species can plumb the depths of the oceans, cross all the land, AND fly above the clouds. No other species has mastered the power of the atom. No other species has sent objects out of the solar system and into orbit around all its planets, or planned to send some of its own to another world. No other species has mastered communication and electricity. If we blew ourselves up tomorrow, how could that possibly equate to the greatest failure in the universe? We talk about the universe as if we comprehend it, but we really don't. The universe is literally incomprehensible. No person can truly imagine the sheer vastness of it, let alone the uncountable objects within it. The galaxy closest to the milky way, andromeda, is approximately 2.5 million light years away. The light we see from the stars closest to us was generated 2.5 million years ago. Humans weren't even around 2.5 million years ago. The genus our species belongs to had only been around a few million years, and it would be 2.3 more million years before our species diverged from other primates. Andromeda is the closest major galaxy that you can see with the naked eye. The furthest yet seen is estimated at 13.2 billion light years away. Our solar system didn't even exist when that light was first generated. To finish it off, the expansion of the universe over its 13.8 billion years ensures that we probably cannot see as much as half of it, because galaxy clusters are moving away from each other sufficiently quickly that the light doesn't move fast enough to catch up. Yet you have the arrogance to think that our VERY young species on this tiny little speck of a planet could possibly be the single greatest failure of the whole thing? When we've done so much and left a mark on this world that cannot be removed by time until the planet itself is no more? You must have ridiculously high standards for success.

So many planets, so little time...  Man comes and goes - the earth remains.  Nothing new under the sun.

Our perspective on things not seen all rests on faith.

Abraham is the textbook example of the faith God wants - 'come and go to a place I'll show you' - live GPS.  "He who through faith is righteous shall live" - this is the principle of the Righteousness of God through faith.  Faith requires us to bring our whole being to the Living God - to walk with God through faith, to be reborn into Christ and His Victory over Death...through faith.

The Earth will not remain forever anymore than we will. Even the sun will die. And yet, every day there is something new under the sun. New life, every single day.

It would require faith to believe that the rules of the universe could change, and that science could be wrong. Only a god could change the laws of the universe, and that god would require faith. It doesn't take faith to believe the Earth has orbited the sun for billions of years, it requires extrapolation of facts.

Faith doesn't accomplish what you think. It allows billions of people to believe someone is watching over them, even though noone is. It allows good people to do bad things in the name of conquest and greed, pretending to be the saviour of fictional souls. Faith doesn't lead to a greater understanding or technology, it leads to cycles of oppression and war. It can occasionally be a force to fight oppression and war, but in recent times it is only a cause for them. Science brings us actual knowledge. The reason you can go to a doctor to treat so many problems is because people spent centuries studying life and death and biology, testing things until they found out what works. The same goes for flying in a plane, floating in a boat, turning on your computer, talking on the phone, or knowing anything at all about the universe we are in. Abandon your harmful faith and step into the light of reason and logic. Embrace all the things that humanity has accomplished, and quit giving credit and blame to beings invented by men thousands of years ago. Abandon your ignorance and be all you want to be, instead of the tortured puppet you pretend to be.

Heaven will remain forever, and we can have New Life in jesus,  after the day of judgement.

The science could be wrong, but faith in jesus is never wrong, for he is the Eternal Truth. Miracles prove that god can change the laws of the universe, but god does not require faith:  he offers it to us as a gift.  It takes more faith to believe the earth could orbit the sun so perfectly by random chance, rather than by an omnipotent Designer.

 As jesus said, faith can move mountains (and bring forth mice).

Without god, we would not know good from bad.

Science may bring us knowledge of the world, but faith brings us knowledge of the Eternal.  No human doctor can cure us of sin, and no human technology can carry us to heaven.

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas - in fact I rather wish you'd start.

The discussions to this point have gone something like this:

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Ok - why does Jesus work for you?

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Yeah - but why? You're not telling us anything.

You: I've answered you clearly - It's just that the answer leads you to a place where you don't want to go. Jesus is cool!

One of us: Some of us have been Christians before...

You: Oh, you just didn't stick with it - If you'd stuck with it for as long as I have, you'd have no problems. Jesus is cool!

One of us: But it says in the Bible that.<fill in reference here>..and you said this <fill in quote here>.

You: You just mischaracterized what I said and have a flawed understanding of his word. Jesus is cool!

<usw.>

I don't want you to deny your Jesus if he works for you. If you are one of those who needs Jesus to keep him from doing all kinds of bad things, then please Keep the Jesus!

As for Jesus being more real than the visible and tangible - I'd love to see some justification for that (other than "Jesus is cool!" of course).

 

jcgadfly,

 

Why does Jesus work for me ---

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?  I haven't - except for this:  putting my faith and trust in Jesus, what He says, fellowship with Him in
The Spirit.  My wife believes in Jesus too, which makes the marriage like heaven on earth.  I have personally experienced great changes in my life, great security, life is more and more fulfilling, great and greater happiness, more and more longing for Him, more and more anxious to see Him face to face. 

I am also able to help some fellow travelers on the way.  

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.  I get guidance in work skills and safety, self discipline, warning about traps of life, light to understand what's going on and what to expect.  I am being helped in this life and also prepared for death and heaven - the next.  I have a piece of heaven in me that is a guarantee and certified seal of my inheritance.  I am having experiences that match up with some Jesus had, also some vexations He had, also some very close relationships with other disciples like He had, closer and closer fellowship with Him in the Spirit.  I have no anxieties.  I have no fears.  I look forward to tomorrow with great incentive.  I look back to no regrets.  The Scriptures are a continual spiritual feast and a spiritual GPS to my way.  I'm having success in my business, marriage, relationships with Christians and non Christians.  I have the security of discipline from God when I need it. 

Like you said I am one of those who can't live without Jesus.  I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

As far as Jesus and everything that happened in the Bible being as real to me as if I had been there and more real than things I can see and touch - I'm not sure I can get that across to you, but I'm telling you the truth.  I don't have to work at it - that's the way it is.  The Bible is a miraculous book, unlike any other.  "....living and active, able to divide bone from marrow".  I know that won't do it for you, but seeing the unseen eternal world is a by-product of eating, digesting (meditating on) and applying the Scriptures.  I'm having the problem here of talking colors to a man born blind.  The LORD opens your eyes to see the unseen.  The wicked walk in darkness, they don't know what they are stumbling over.  Sorry JCGadfly, I'm just hitting a wall as far as describing it.  How would you describe color to a man born blind? 

 

You've been at this how many years now Fonzie?

Quote:

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?

Is that what you think all atheists fill their lives with? Materialism? Some maybe but our individual desires are a speices issue not a label issue. Are you trying to argue that "fullfillment" in life is magical out of a comic book? You assume we are blind because we don't buy your invisible sky hero claim? Yet we can point to all of human history in the past and point out tons of dead gods you yourself dont buy into.

Quote:

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.

I can. Evolution, entropy, super novas, black holes, the computer you are typing your apology on. The doctor who fixed my mom's heart anurism. None of those things require Allah or Vishnu to discover or learn, so why would I need your god either?

Quote:

I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

That is sad. Christianity is only 2,000 years old, humans managed to reprocuce prior to the invention of your religion. And most of the 7 billion living today do fine without believing in Jesus, including the atheists here who have been debating you all this time. We know you'd do fine without your belief and we are living proof you can. There is a huge difference between "cant" and "don't want to". You can live without your belief, you just don't want to. It never occurs to you that we are trying to help you view the world in a better natural reality, wrather than the prisiom of an ancient book written by people who had no clue of modern science. It is not frigtening at all to accept reality.

Quote:

How would you describe color to a man born blind?

Actually just the opposite. You are to us like Galileo was to the church of his time. How do we convince theists of all labels that their claims are merely their imaginations? Even after Galileo told the truth about the earth rotating arround the sun the majority of humans refused to accept his factual discovery.

Atheists and scientists are not evil for telling the truth. It should be for you a learning experiance and growing experience, and most certainly nothing to be frightened of. For the same reason you reject claims of Allah and Vishnu, we reject your god claim as well.

God claims and religion in our entire species history is born out of our species flawed perceptions. We see a gap and fill it in with a god claim. Unfortunately that comfort our species gets from believing in all sorts of gods is nothing more than a sugar pill. We still manage as a speices to get beyond those flawed perceptions and discover reality long term.  The truth is we want better for our fellow humans in terms of how we measure the nature of reality.

You really have nothing to fear by giving up on god claims. You can still live your life with both the ups and downs every human goes through. You can still find love and relationships with others. The good news is no invisible villian is going to burn you in hell for eternity. I still find awe in nature, like love for my mother, and my cat, and my friends. I still see greatness in the power of nature, like volcanos and sunsets. I simply do not asign any of it to ancient comic books of any name. You can as well and again, it really is nothing to be frightened of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bryan,

I understand you don't believe Jesus or believe in Him.   Plus, you don't believe me.  We're on opposite sides of the issues.  

I believe Jesus, believe in Jesus, believe the Bible.  You believe scientists and atheists have and tell the truth.   That's your faith.     

And that's fine with me,  no problem.  You can have it.  

 

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas - in fact I rather wish you'd start.

The discussions to this point have gone something like this:

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Ok - why does Jesus work for you?

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Yeah - but why? You're not telling us anything.

You: I've answered you clearly - It's just that the answer leads you to a place where you don't want to go. Jesus is cool!

One of us: Some of us have been Christians before...

You: Oh, you just didn't stick with it - If you'd stuck with it for as long as I have, you'd have no problems. Jesus is cool!

One of us: But it says in the Bible that.<fill in reference here>..and you said this <fill in quote here>.

You: You just mischaracterized what I said and have a flawed understanding of his word. Jesus is cool!

<usw.>

I don't want you to deny your Jesus if he works for you. If you are one of those who needs Jesus to keep him from doing all kinds of bad things, then please Keep the Jesus!

As for Jesus being more real than the visible and tangible - I'd love to see some justification for that (other than "Jesus is cool!" of course).

 

jcgadfly,

 

Why does Jesus work for me ---

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?  I haven't - except for this:  putting my faith and trust in Jesus, what He says, fellowship with Him in
The Spirit.  My wife believes in Jesus too, which makes the marriage like heaven on earth.  I have personally experienced great changes in my life, great security, life is more and more fulfilling, great and greater happiness, more and more longing for Him, more and more anxious to see Him face to face. 

I am also able to help some fellow travelers on the way.  

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.  I get guidance in work skills and safety, self discipline, warning about traps of life, light to understand what's going on and what to expect.  I am being helped in this life and also prepared for death and heaven - the next.  I have a piece of heaven in me that is a guarantee and certified seal of my inheritance.  I am having experiences that match up with some Jesus had, also some vexations He had, also some very close relationships with other disciples like He had, closer and closer fellowship with Him in the Spirit.  I have no anxieties.  I have no fears.  I look forward to tomorrow with great incentive.  I look back to no regrets.  The Scriptures are a continual spiritual feast and a spiritual GPS to my way.  I'm having success in my business, marriage, relationships with Christians and non Christians.  I have the security of discipline from God when I need it. 

Like you said I am one of those who can't live without Jesus.  I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

As far as Jesus and everything that happened in the Bible being as real to me as if I had been there and more real than things I can see and touch - I'm not sure I can get that across to you, but I'm telling you the truth.  I don't have to work at it - that's the way it is.  The Bible is a miraculous book, unlike any other.  "....living and active, able to divide bone from marrow".  I know that won't do it for you, but seeing the unseen eternal world is a by-product of eating, digesting (meditating on) and applying the Scriptures.  I'm having the problem here of talking colors to a man born blind.  The LORD opens your eyes to see the unseen.  The wicked walk in darkness, they don't know what they are stumbling over.  Sorry JCGadfly, I'm just hitting a wall as far as describing it.  How would you describe color to a man born blind? 

 

You've been at this how many years now Fonzie?

Quote:

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?

Is that what you think all atheists fill their lives with? Materialism? Some maybe but our individual desires are a speices issue not a label issue. Are you trying to argue that "fullfillment" in life is magical out of a comic book? You assume we are blind because we don't buy your invisible sky hero claim? Yet we can point to all of human history in the past and point out tons of dead gods you yourself dont buy into.

Quote:

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.

I can. Evolution, entropy, super novas, black holes, the computer you are typing your apology on. The doctor who fixed my mom's heart anurism. None of those things require Allah or Vishnu to discover or learn, so why would I need your god either?

Quote:

I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

That is sad. Christianity is only 2,000 years old, humans managed to reprocuce prior to the invention of your religion. And most of the 7 billion living today do fine without believing in Jesus, including the atheists here who have been debating you all this time. We know you'd do fine without your belief and we are living proof you can. There is a huge difference between "cant" and "don't want to". You can live without your belief, you just don't want to. It never occurs to you that we are trying to help you view the world in a better natural reality, wrather than the prisiom of an ancient book written by people who had no clue of modern science. It is not frigtening at all to accept reality.

Quote:

How would you describe color to a man born blind?

Actually just the opposite. You are to us like Galileo was to the church of his time. How do we convince theists of all labels that their claims are merely their imaginations? Even after Galileo told the truth about the earth rotating arround the sun the majority of humans refused to accept his factual discovery.

Atheists and scientists are not evil for telling the truth. It should be for you a learning experiance and growing experience, and most certainly nothing to be frightened of. For the same reason you reject claims of Allah and Vishnu, we reject your god claim as well.

God claims and religion in our entire species history is born out of our species flawed perceptions. We see a gap and fill it in with a god claim. Unfortunately that comfort our species gets from believing in all sorts of gods is nothing more than a sugar pill. We still manage as a speices to get beyond those flawed perceptions and discover reality long term.  The truth is we want better for our fellow humans in terms of how we measure the nature of reality.

You really have nothing to fear by giving up on god claims. You can still live your life with both the ups and downs every human goes through. You can still find love and relationships with others. The good news is no invisible villian is going to burn you in hell for eternity. I still find awe in nature, like love for my mother, and my cat, and my friends. I still see greatness in the power of nature, like volcanos and sunsets. I simply do not asign any of it to ancient comic books of any name. You can as well and again, it really is nothing to be frightened of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bryan,

I understand you don't believe Jesus or believe in Him.   Plus, you don't believe me.  We're on opposite sides of the issues.  

I believe Jesus, believe in Jesus, believe the Bible.  You believe scientists and atheists have and tell the truth.   That's your faith.     

And that's fine with me,  no problem.  You can have it.  

 

 

 

 

 

This is what you sound like "I don't have a problem with you why do you have a problem with me?"

 

That is not the issue. This is NOT about human rights or even if you personally or a good or bad person. This is about the CLAIMS YOU MAKE.

 

Now it is not my fault some ignorant people in antiquity wrote stories down and other gullible people fell for it and successfully marketed it. The earth WAS NOT made in 6 days. Men do not pop out of dirt. Women do not pop out of ribs. Babies cannot be made without TWO sets of DNA, and human flesh DOES NOT survive rigor mortis.

The bible is a comic book just like the Koran and Torah and Talmud and Reg Vedas.

We understand you believe what you believe and we don't doubt you believe what you believe. What we are trying to get you to understand is that you believe it, not because it is true, you believe it because it makes you feel good.

If you can accept that the sun is not a god like the Egyptians falsely believed for 3,000 years. And you can accept that you will not get 72 virgins because of a verse in the Koran, and you can also accept that Poseidon does not cause hurricanes, then it should not be that hard for you to understand why we don't buy your claims either. If you can accept that other people with other god claims believe them merely because they like what they believe then you need to be intellectually brave and aim that same logic and look in the mirror yourself. You really ARE making the same mistake humans make in filling in the gap with god claims.

It makes much more sense that humans make up gods than a god actually existing. It made sense back then that people believed in any polytheistic on monotheistic god because humans didn't know better. We know better now, both about the nature of reality, and even the human psychology as to why humans believe false things.

You may think you are trying to help or teach us, but the reality is that WE are trying to help you and teach you.

 

See if you can spot the pattern.........

 

"Allah exists" does that make sense to you?

"Yahweh exists"(FYI, was a Canaanite god prior to becoming the Hebrew god) does that make sense to you?

"Vishnu exists" does that make sense to you?

"Apollo exists" does that make sense to you?

If it is easy for you to dismiss those claims above and rightfully so, then you now know why we reject your pet god claim as well.

Now, the problem is this - if you were so deceptive for so long about something is trivial as your internet identity, why should I believe you about Jesus? _{22^nd time}

Fonzie wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Nothing wrong with discussing ideas - in fact I rather wish you'd start.

The discussions to this point have gone something like this:

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Ok - why does Jesus work for you?

You: Jesus is cool!

One of us: Yeah - but why? You're not telling us anything.

You: I've answered you clearly - It's just that the answer leads you to a place where you don't want to go. Jesus is cool!

One of us: Some of us have been Christians before...

You: Oh, you just didn't stick with it - If you'd stuck with it for as long as I have, you'd have no problems. Jesus is cool!

One of us: But it says in the Bible that.<fill in reference here>..and you said this <fill in quote here>.

You: You just mischaracterized what I said and have a flawed understanding of his word. Jesus is cool!

<usw.>

I don't want you to deny your Jesus if he works for you. If you are one of those who needs Jesus to keep him from doing all kinds of bad things, then please Keep the Jesus!

As for Jesus being more real than the visible and tangible - I'd love to see some justification for that (other than "Jesus is cool!" of course).

 

jcgadfly,

 

Why does Jesus work for me ---

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?  I haven't - except for this:  putting my faith and trust in Jesus, what He says, fellowship with Him in
The Spirit.  My wife believes in Jesus too, which makes the marriage like heaven on earth.  I have personally experienced great changes in my life, great security, life is more and more fulfilling, great and greater happiness, more and more longing for Him, more and more anxious to see Him face to face. 

I am also able to help some fellow travelers on the way.  

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.  I get guidance in work skills and safety, self discipline, warning about traps of life, light to understand what's going on and what to expect.  I am being helped in this life and also prepared for death and heaven - the next.  I have a piece of heaven in me that is a guarantee and certified seal of my inheritance.  I am having experiences that match up with some Jesus had, also some vexations He had, also some very close relationships with other disciples like He had, closer and closer fellowship with Him in the Spirit.  I have no anxieties.  I have no fears.  I look forward to tomorrow with great incentive.  I look back to no regrets.  The Scriptures are a continual spiritual feast and a spiritual GPS to my way.  I'm having success in my business, marriage, relationships with Christians and non Christians.  I have the security of discipline from God when I need it. 

Like you said I am one of those who can't live without Jesus.  I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

As far as Jesus and everything that happened in the Bible being as real to me as if I had been there and more real than things I can see and touch - I'm not sure I can get that across to you, but I'm telling you the truth.  I don't have to work at it - that's the way it is.  The Bible is a miraculous book, unlike any other.  "....living and active, able to divide bone from marrow".  I know that won't do it for you, but seeing the unseen eternal world is a by-product of eating, digesting (meditating on) and applying the Scriptures.  I'm having the problem here of talking colors to a man born blind.  The LORD opens your eyes to see the unseen.  The wicked walk in darkness, they don't know what they are stumbling over.  Sorry JCGadfly, I'm just hitting a wall as far as describing it.  How would you describe color to a man born blind? 

 

You've been at this how many years now Fonzie?

Quote:

Have you ever anticipated doing something, going somewhere, buying something and it was fulfilling in every way?

Is that what you think all atheists fill their lives with? Materialism? Some maybe but our individual desires are a speices issue not a label issue. Are you trying to argue that "fullfillment" in life is magical out of a comic book? You assume we are blind because we don't buy your invisible sky hero claim? Yet we can point to all of human history in the past and point out tons of dead gods you yourself dont buy into.

Quote:

I can't think of anything in my life that Jesus doesn't help and give instruction in, correction of, and make better.

I can. Evolution, entropy, super novas, black holes, the computer you are typing your apology on. The doctor who fixed my mom's heart anurism. None of those things require Allah or Vishnu to discover or learn, so why would I need your god either?

Quote:

I would be the most miserable man ever without Him.  I couldn't imagine it.

That is sad. Christianity is only 2,000 years old, humans managed to reprocuce prior to the invention of your religion. And most of the 7 billion living today do fine without believing in Jesus, including the atheists here who have been debating you all this time. We know you'd do fine without your belief and we are living proof you can. There is a huge difference between "cant" and "don't want to". You can live without your belief, you just don't want to. It never occurs to you that we are trying to help you view the world in a better natural reality, wrather than the prisiom of an ancient book written by people who had no clue of modern science. It is not frigtening at all to accept reality.

Quote:

How would you describe color to a man born blind?

Actually just the opposite. You are to us like Galileo was to the church of his time. How do we convince theists of all labels that their claims are merely their imaginations? Even after Galileo told the truth about the earth rotating arround the sun the majority of humans refused to accept his factual discovery.

Atheists and scientists are not evil for telling the truth. It should be for you a learning experiance and growing experience, and most certainly nothing to be frightened of. For the same reason you reject claims of Allah and Vishnu, we reject your god claim as well.

God claims and religion in our entire species history is born out of our species flawed perceptions. We see a gap and fill it in with a god claim. Unfortunately that comfort our species gets from believing in all sorts of gods is nothing more than a sugar pill. We still manage as a speices to get beyond those flawed perceptions and discover reality long term.  The truth is we want better for our fellow humans in terms of how we measure the nature of reality.

You really have nothing to fear by giving up on god claims. You can still live your life with both the ups and downs every human goes through. You can still find love and relationships with others. The good news is no invisible villian is going to burn you in hell for eternity. I still find awe in nature, like love for my mother, and my cat, and my friends. I still see greatness in the power of nature, like volcanos and sunsets. I simply do not asign any of it to ancient comic books of any name. You can as well and again, it really is nothing to be frightened of.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bryan,

I understand you don't believe Jesus or believe in Him.   Plus, you don't believe me.  We're on opposite sides of the issues.  

I believe Jesus, believe in Jesus, believe the Bible.  You believe scientists and atheists have and tell the truth.   That's your faith.     

And that's fine with me,  no problem.  You can have it.  

 

 

 

 

 

First off my name is spelled Brian, not Bryan.

Secondly, and once again the reason I do not believe you is the same reason you do not believe in Allah or Vishnu. This has nothing to do with human rights at all. All god claims past and present, polytheistic and monotheistic start with the naked assertion that an invisible sky hero exists, even before you get to any holy book by any hame.

EVIDENCE is what this is about and you have as much as anyone else with a different pet god claim. And it is not a matter of "believing" science. Science, unlike religion, is universal and testable and falsifiable. It is why we know that the earth rotates around the sun. It is why we  know what the speed of light is. It is why you and I have computers to use. It is why we have doctors and cars and cell phones.

You believe what you believe for the same reason a Muslim or Jew does. You like what you believe. "Belief" is not evidence, it is merely what you like believing.

 Subject-line :: IS SCIENCE REQUIRED FOR ATHEIST MAJOR?

Brian,

Could you be an atheist and not believe in science either?

Let me teach you something about atheists.

1. It only refers to the "off" position on god claims. It does not reflect anything else about the person. It is not a moral code. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not club. It does not reflect the person's education level, class or political leanings.

2. None of that above says anything about your lack of evidence for the fictional invisible sky hero you claim is real. You have as much evidence for your Catholic god claim as a Baptist, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or even pantheist. If any one of you had a lick of evidence for your superstitions it would be quite easy to take that evidence to a neutral lab and get it tested and falsified and independently peer reviewed. You could beat everyone to the patent office and win a Nobel Prize. (FYI) Former Catholic myself.

3. Science is universal. It is not deity based. It is completely independent of the fictional god claims humans invent. Science is not Allah based, Vishnu based, Jesus based, or Thor based. The level of education of atheists or lack of education is also independent of science. Science is not atheist based either. One could only say on average atheists lean to it more ON AVERAGE, because we are not clouded by human concocted claptrap.

4. Again, it is least complicated to say that humans make up gods to fill in gaps. God of the gaps explain nothing about reality, and are merely the reflections of humans desires. Religion is nothing more than a human invented placebo born out of our own ignorance as a species.

Confirmation bias, sample rate error, and false perceptions are all you are employing. The ability to universally prove something goes way beyond merely trying to convince yourself. All you are doing is wanting to believe something bad enough you will look for excuses to cling to it. Muslims and Jews and Mormons also deeply believe in their versions of god as well, as deeply as you believe in yours. Hardly evedence and hardly impressive.

Now, the problem is this - if you were so deceptive for so long about something is trivial as your internet identity, why should I believe you about Jesus? _{23^rd time}

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Brian,

Could you be an atheist and not believe in science either?

Let me teach you something about atheists.

 

1. It only refers to the "off" position on god claims. It does not reflect anything else about the person. It is not a moral code. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not club. It does not reflect the person's education level, class or political leanings. Yes, some atheists outside the issue of "off" on god claims can have bat shit insane beliefs too. I've meet atheists who think 9/11 was an inside job. I've known atheists who claim Star Trek invented the modern cell phone.

 

2. None of that above says anything about your lack of evidence for the fictional invisible sky hero you claim is real. You have as much evidence for your Catholic god claim as a Baptist, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or even pantheist. If any one of you had a lick of evidence for your superstitions it would be quite easy to take that evidence to a neutral lab and get it tested and falsified and independently peer reviewed. You could beat everyone to the patent office and win a Nobel Prize. (FYI) Former Catholic myself.

3. Science is universal. It is not deity based. It is completely independent of the fictional god claims humans invent. Science is not Allah based, Vishnu based, Jesus based, or Thor based. The level of education of atheists or lack of education is also independent of science. Science is not atheist based either. One could only say on average atheists lean to it more ON AVERAGE, because we are not clouded by human concocted claptrap.

4. Again, it is least complicated to say that humans make up gods to fill in gaps. God of the gaps explain nothing about reality, and are merely the reflections of humans desires. Religion is nothing more than a human invented placebo born out of our own ignorance as a species.

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

 

You DID teach me something about atheists - PREJUDICE!  You're ok with atheists you meet having unproven 9/11 Star Trek "insane beliefs" - as long as the unproven God claims are in the "off position".  If they say they "don't believe in God" THAT'S  the "password", the "secret handshake" and - you're not concerned about other unproved or unscientific beliefs they have.  How can you be honest with yourself and not recognize this as a blind cult-club with zenophobic prejudice???

As, in fact, your unbelief in God is unproven.  It's not scientific (or it is, or it isn't, or it is, or it isn't, wink, wink) - it's what you would call emotional and I would call spiritual.  

 

We have more in common than you realize Brian.  

1. You DON'T believe in God.  I DO believe in God.  You don't have any proof for your position - held up like (and shaky as) a balloon over the back end of a vacuum cleaner - (though you convince yourself THAT YOU DO).  I have proof for my position which is on and in the ROCK of the LORD Jesus Christ (though you have convinced yourself I don't) - I am convicted by the Light of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God  that I do have PROOF.  And life goes on.. here in Christ - and death there...animated dirt without Him.  

2. You say I have made up God to fill a gap - you have made up the "God off" position to leave a gap....for you there to be enthroned.  

3. Christians with the "righteousness which is by faith" in God in Christ have varying levels of education too -  just like your atheist buddies.  Some believers in God plant "in the sign of the moon" and think "soap under the mattress keeps them from having cramps".  Others have doctor's degrees in math or cutting edge electronic classroom.  

4. We have a common camp around the camp-FIRE of Christ.  You have a common meeting place around the pit of the "God - off - button".  There... you don't need "evidence for your superstitions" - there you have a "circle of love" around your blind committment to "God off"  and you belly up to the bar of nothingness, calling darkness light, keeping the lie alive (I forgot, to you it's an uproven truth), with a little blasphemy thrown in to spice it all.  I (we) use salt.  Thank God for salt.

5. We say, "we see" because God gives us Light - and you say we can't prove it to you... but we say - we can prove it to ourselves.  You say we don't see - you can't prove that to us though you can prove it to youself and other atheists - EVEN ATHEISTS WITH INSANE UNPROVEN BELIEFS which you accept under your "God-off" button umbrella!  You also have convinced yourself (though unproven) that, alas, you see.  And in your seeing you see nothing.  In our seeing we see God, His Son, His Righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death on the cross for our sins, becoming sin for us and being raised for our justification now with an Indestructible Life at work within us who believe.     

 

 

 

 

 

Fonzie wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Brian,

Could you be an atheist and not believe in science either?

Let me teach you something about atheists.

 

1. It only refers to the "off" position on god claims. It does not reflect anything else about the person. It is not a moral code. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not club. It does not reflect the person's education level, class or political leanings. Yes, some atheists outside the issue of "off" on god claims can have bat shit insane beliefs too. I've meet atheists who think 9/11 was an inside job. I've known atheists who claim Star Trek invented the modern cell phone.

 

2. None of that above says anything about your lack of evidence for the fictional invisible sky hero you claim is real. You have as much evidence for your Catholic god claim as a Baptist, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or even pantheist. If any one of you had a lick of evidence for your superstitions it would be quite easy to take that evidence to a neutral lab and get it tested and falsified and independently peer reviewed. You could beat everyone to the patent office and win a Nobel Prize. (FYI) Former Catholic myself.

3. Science is universal. It is not deity based. It is completely independent of the fictional god claims humans invent. Science is not Allah based, Vishnu based, Jesus based, or Thor based. The level of education of atheists or lack of education is also independent of science. Science is not atheist based either. One could only say on average atheists lean to it more ON AVERAGE, because we are not clouded by human concocted claptrap.

4. Again, it is least complicated to say that humans make up gods to fill in gaps. God of the gaps explain nothing about reality, and are merely the reflections of humans desires. Religion is nothing more than a human invented placebo born out of our own ignorance as a species.

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

 

You DID teach me something about atheists - PREJUDICE!  You're ok with atheists you meet having unproven 9/11 Star Trek "insane beliefs" - as long as the unproven God claims are in the "off position".  If they say they "don't believe in God" THAT'S  the "password", the "secret handshake" and - you're not concerned about other unproved or unscientific beliefs they have.  How can you be honest with yourself and not recognize this as a blind cult-club with zenophobic prejudice???

As, in fact, your unbelief in God is unproven.  It's not scientific (or it is, or it isn't, or it is, or it isn't, wink, wink) - it's what you would call emotional and I would call spiritual.  

 

We have more in common than you realize Brian.  

1. You DON'T believe in God.  I DO believe in God.  You don't have any proof for your position - held up like (and shaky as) a balloon over the back end of a vacuum cleaner - (though you convince yourself THAT YOU DO).  I have proof for my position which is on and in the ROCK of the LORD Jesus Christ (though you have convinced yourself I don't) - I am convicted by the Light of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God  that I do have PROOF.  And life goes on.. here in Christ - and death there...animated dirt without Him.  

2. You say I have made up God to fill a gap - you have made up the "God off" position to leave a gap....for you there to be enthroned.  

3. Christians with the "righteousness which is by faith" in God in Christ have varying levels of education too -  just like your atheist buddies.  Some believers in God plant "in the sign of the moon" and think "soap under the mattress keeps them from having cramps".  Others have doctor's degrees in math or cutting edge electronic classroom.  

4. We have a common camp around the camp-FIRE of Christ.  You have a common meeting place around the pit of the "God - off - button".  There... you don't need "evidence for your superstitions" - there you have a "circle of love" around your blind committment to "God off"  and you belly up to the bar of nothingness, calling darkness light, keeping the lie alive (I forgot, to you it's an uproven truth), with a little blasphemy thrown in to spice it all.  I (we) use salt.  Thank God for salt.

5. We say, "we see" because God gives us Light - and you say we can't prove it to you... but we say - we can prove it to ourselves.  You say we don't see - you can't prove that to us though you can prove it to youself and other atheists - EVEN ATHEISTS WITH INSANE UNPROVEN BELIEFS which you accept under your "God-off" button umbrella!  You also have convinced yourself (though unproven) that, alas, you see.  And in your seeing you see nothing.  In our seeing we see God, His Son, His Righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death on the cross for our sins, becoming sin for us and being raised for our justification now with an Indestructible Life at work within us who believe.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes "Predudice", and so what? If you kept on claiming the Yankees won the Superbowl willfully ignoring that they play baseball not football, any sane person is going to respond with "BULLSHIT".

You have a comic book that took over 1,000 years to complete, written by 40 or more authors, full of contradictions and full of scientific absurdities. I am reacting to your naked assertions the same way if you claime the sun rotates around the earth. Trying to blame me for crap I had no hand in writing is absurd.

 

Now, what would you like me to start with? The scientific absurdities, or the moral bankruptsy in that book?

 

 1. Scientific absurdities. 6 day earth, men poppping out of dirt, women comming from ribs, the sun and moon treated as the seperate  sources of light, talking donkeys, talking snakes, talking bushs', babies being born without a second set of DNA, a man dying and magically surviving rigor mortis. That is a fraction of the scientific absurdities in that book.

2. Moral bankruptsy.

A head character(God) unellected, immovable, does not need our consent to rule over us, cannot be impeached or voted out of his position. Watches over, sanctions, and or condones or causes himself, infanacide, genocide. Treats girls and women like property, does not condone slavery, infact has laws telling you how to treat slaves, does not condone rape. And at the end of the book, the majority of humans are thrown in a trash fire to be tortured forever, even for the mere infraction of not belonging to the right sky hero club.

 

Point being my "Predudice" is not ignorant or bigoted. I think you need to be intelectually brave, and read that book without your beer goggles on.  Yes I am predudice just like if you claimed you were Napoleon.

 

 

 

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

Brian,

Could you be an atheist and not believe in science either?

Let me teach you something about atheists.

 

1. It only refers to the "off" position on god claims. It does not reflect anything else about the person. It is not a moral code. It is not a loyalty oath. It is not club. It does not reflect the person's education level, class or political leanings. Yes, some atheists outside the issue of "off" on god claims can have bat shit insane beliefs too. I've meet atheists who think 9/11 was an inside job. I've known atheists who claim Star Trek invented the modern cell phone.

 

2. None of that above says anything about your lack of evidence for the fictional invisible sky hero you claim is real. You have as much evidence for your Catholic god claim as a Baptist, Mormon, Muslim, Hindu, Jew or even pantheist. If any one of you had a lick of evidence for your superstitions it would be quite easy to take that evidence to a neutral lab and get it tested and falsified and independently peer reviewed. You could beat everyone to the patent office and win a Nobel Prize. (FYI) Former Catholic myself.

3. Science is universal. It is not deity based. It is completely independent of the fictional god claims humans invent. Science is not Allah based, Vishnu based, Jesus based, or Thor based. The level of education of atheists or lack of education is also independent of science. Science is not atheist based either. One could only say on average atheists lean to it more ON AVERAGE, because we are not clouded by human concocted claptrap.

4. Again, it is least complicated to say that humans make up gods to fill in gaps. God of the gaps explain nothing about reality, and are merely the reflections of humans desires. Religion is nothing more than a human invented placebo born out of our own ignorance as a species.

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

 

You DID teach me something about atheists - PREJUDICE!  You're ok with atheists you meet having unproven 9/11 Star Trek "insane beliefs" - as long as the unproven God claims are in the "off position".  If they say they "don't believe in God" THAT'S  the "password", the "secret handshake" and - you're not concerned about other unproved or unscientific beliefs they have.  How can you be honest with yourself and not recognize this as a blind cult-club with zenophobic prejudice???

As, in fact, your unbelief in God is unproven.  It's not scientific (or it is, or it isn't, or it is, or it isn't, wink, wink) - it's what you would call emotional and I would call spiritual.  

 

We have more in common than you realize Brian.  

1. You DON'T believe in God.  I DO believe in God.  You don't have any proof for your position - held up like (and shaky as) a balloon over the back end of a vacuum cleaner - (though you convince yourself THAT YOU DO).  I have proof for my position which is on and in the ROCK of the LORD Jesus Christ (though you have convinced yourself I don't) - I am convicted by the Light of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God  that I do have PROOF.  And life goes on.. here in Christ - and death there...animated dirt without Him.  

2. You say I have made up God to fill a gap - you have made up the "God off" position to leave a gap....for you there to be enthroned.  

3. Christians with the "righteousness which is by faith" in God in Christ have varying levels of education too -  just like your atheist buddies.  Some believers in God plant "in the sign of the moon" and think "soap under the mattress keeps them from having cramps".  Others have doctor's degrees in math or cutting edge electronic classroom.  

4. We have a common camp around the camp-FIRE of Christ.  You have a common meeting place around the pit of the "God - off - button".  There... you don't need "evidence for your superstitions" - there you have a "circle of love" around your blind committment to "God off"  and you belly up to the bar of nothingness, calling darkness light, keeping the lie alive (I forgot, to you it's an uproven truth), with a little blasphemy thrown in to spice it all.  I (we) use salt.  Thank God for salt.

5. We say, "we see" because God gives us Light - and you say we can't prove it to you... but we say - we can prove it to ourselves.  You say we don't see - you can't prove that to us though you can prove it to youself and other atheists - EVEN ATHEISTS WITH INSANE UNPROVEN BELIEFS which you accept under your "God-off" button umbrella!  You also have convinced yourself (though unproven) that, alas, you see.  And in your seeing you see nothing.  In our seeing we see God, His Son, His Righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ and His substitutionary death on the cross for our sins, becoming sin for us and being raised for our justification now with an Indestructible Life at work within us who believe.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes "Predudice", and so what? If you kept on claiming the Yankees won the Superbowl willfully ignoring that they play baseball not football, any sane person is going to respond with "BULLSHIT".

You have a comic book that took over 1,000 years to complete, written by 40 or more authors, full of contradictions and full of scientific absurdities. I am reacting to your naked assertions the same way if you claime the sun rotates around the earth. Trying to blame me for crap I had no hand in writing is absurd.

 

Now, what would you like me to start with? The scientific absurdities, or the moral bankruptsy in that book?

 

 1. Scientific absurdities. 6 day earth, men poppping out of dirt, women comming from ribs, the sun and moon treated as the seperate  sources of light, talking donkeys, talking snakes, talking bushs', babies being born without a second set of DNA, a man dying and magically surviving rigor mortis. That is a fraction of the scientific absurdities in that book.

2. Moral bankruptsy.

A head character(God) unellected, immovable, does not need our consent to rule over us, cannot be impeached or voted out of his position. Watches over, sanctions, and or condones or causes himself, infanacide, genocide. Treats girls and women like property, does not condone slavery, infact has laws telling you how to treat slaves, does not condone rape. And at the end of the book, the majority of humans are thrown in a trash fire to be tortured forever, even for the mere infraction of not belonging to the right sky hero club.

 

Point being my "Predudice" is not ignorant or bigoted. I think you need to be intelectually brave, and read that book without your beer goggles on.  Yes I am predudice just like if you claimed you were Napoleon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brian,

Your prejudice is selective though.  You allow other unproven beliefs with the "secret (God - off) handshake".  And you yourself don't have a proven position but require weighty proof for the "game on - God" position.  You use different weights and measures.  

If the first sentence of the Bible is true (which it is) the rest is all "too easy" for God: make an ass talk (think about that one), animate dirt, shake mountains, in effect stop the sun, raise the dead, use birds to feed Elijah, manna from the sky, water from the Rock, waltz through the Red Sea, walk on water, become flesh and die for us - saving us with the Blood of the Lamb of God through faith, the Righteousness of God (OK, CORRECTION:  saving us was NOT EASY)  

If you've seen microscope pictures of the human brain (which looks like dryer lint) it's pretty amazing that something could be happening in that to deny this.  

Infidelity is not an honest position.

The way to destruction is a very fashionable and popular road and it always will be.

 

 

 

You keep calling me "Prejudice" and I don't deny that at all. Why shouldn't I value facts over superstition? Again, you confuse human rights with ability to demonstrate the credibility of a claim. You have the right to claim the New York Yankees won the Superbowl all you want. It still would not make it true.

The fact still remains that all god claims in human history, even prior to your superstition club being invented, are made up and concocted by the mere imaginations of intellectually lazy people. It is a flaw in our species having nothing to do with your particular label. Try being brave, and think about all the polytheistic god claims and even the other monothistic god claims you RIGHTFULLY reject, then you'll understand why I reject your claim as well.

Claiming a non material magical invisible sky hero to me is like claiming the earth is flat and the sun rotates around the earth. It would be the same to me if you claimed the Yankees won the Superbowl. Do not blame me for the bad claims other people make and you yourself swallow.

So yea, I am prejudice, but not for the reasons you think. I have a bias for FACTS, and hate superstition. I do not feel the slightest bit of guilt for accepting reality.

Onward dragged the pointless thread,

 

AE wrote:

Tell us  how  G-d  speaks to you, Fonzie. When you read the bible to you feel closer to him, do you feel a warm sense of belonging, do you feel loved by god? What is love? How do you identify it happening to you?

What other way is there to know god but by one's personal feelings? There's precious little external conversation going on, even you must agree. 

And what is the 'illumination of the holy spirit' if not an upwelling of feelings? A stirring of emotion? A strong sense (feeling) in your heart (limbic system) that what you are reading in the bible is 'true'?

I have to say this line "seen through the eyes of faith" is rather silly. What it really means is that you read biblical assertions with eager preparedness to believe them for the sake of the continuity of your dogma. 

Anyway. Hope you are well and happy, Fonzie. Glad to see your thread hasn't jumped the shark.

 [ An enigma, inside a cipher wrapped in an enigma, smothered in secret sauce (basically like myself). ¬ Jimmy James ]

  God is able to use random events to individually speak/communicate  to any one of his children?  How is that?  As is normal for this Thread; this sort of topic has the potential of branching off into any number of distinct directions (Fonzie is the limiting factor though). So, You dont turn purple,  I  am  sure  Fonzie  means well. I will throw it out there.  One analogy  I find very fascinating is what you see in the Japanese Pachinko parlors are widespread in Japan  there is  a  view  (not to lawyer this too much) that randomness is governable by the deity. If you get a chance  look up what the machines are like, cascading  silver balls,   it is quite the picture of randomness. Most religious people are very fatalistic according to the perceptions of others on this board, you'd find. It's why  you'd see ex-minister often ask, which he has on many many occasions (take my word for it), specifically  asked people if they believed anything random ever happened?  In the re-runs of the American  Series: The X-Files. Scully and Mulder, had an episode of that Original Airdate  I could look up but don't honestly care to. I can if need be. Anyhow, It's on/bout a killer who is guided by numerology and the influence by omen like events, in the fictional television series. It particularly  featured   Burt Reynolds (actor), of Smokey and the Bandit fame, where he was a deity like  figure  around this serial-killer, in the series. His episode, was (again) he (the Bandit) played a devil-like nebulous figure who had some unnatural obsession with the killer's approach to killing. It was portrayed where he was able to perfectly predict where and when he would strike next. Many people have filed through here only hinting at how  god  can own and freely manipulate seemingly random events, with considerable mastery Independent of whether a person would personally find it true or false or argued it to be beyond the ability of human perception to definitively tell . . .

 

That's where you theists always lose the argument. Science isn't about faith. Science wouldn't work if it were based on faith

Vastet wrote:

zarathustra wrote:

Onward dragged the pointless thread, For on and on, the Troll they fed, Whose nonsense, one may demonstrate,

Trolls feeding trolls. Like you, the biggest and most obvious troll on the site in recent times. Also the least effective, since noone cares about your broken record peanut gallery comments enough to stop responding. Brian doesn't qualify as a troll, since he actually believes the stuff he's saying. Like theists, he's stuck in a loop. Fonzie, if he is trolling, would be the best troll, since he's been doing it for years without a break in character. But not the biggest troll and certainly not the most obvious or ineffective.

What loop am I stuck in? That it makes more sense that humans merely make gods up to coddle their insecurities? Or that they have no evidence whatsoever that an ivisible non material thinking being exists? Or that even people like Hawkins have said "A god is not required". If that is a loop, then I am more than happy to be stuck in that loop because that is where science is pointing. I still think some people here think somehow I cannot separate human rights from personal beliefs.

I think this also is a missunderstanding of the term "agnostic atheist" which is what I am. The part even atheist sometimes fail to consider is timeframe issues. Past, present and future. As far as past and present claims I am 100% sure it all god claims are merely products of human imagination that merely give humans false comfort. I am strictly "semantically" and "technically"  agnostic about the future because science never talks in terms of absolutes.

But even then I still lean strong atheist about the future in terms of 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% probablility of a god even being a requirement. Stephen Hawkens has said "A god is not required".

So yea, I truely believe gods are made up and that even though we cant "techncally know", we do have abundant evidence that humans can believe false things.

 

All anyone with any god claim has to do is produce a universale testible falsifiable system so that an independent source can replicate such methodology and confirm their claims, get those claims independently tested and confirmed, and even the scientific community will be forced to adapt to those findings. They'd also be able to get patents and even win a Nobel prize in "god theory".

But if all they have is claims based on personal bias, tradition, and faith, all they are telling me is that they have claims they like believing. That is why "faith" cannot be equated to evidence. Rights are separate from the ability to demonstrate the credibility of a claim.

 

 

 

 

 
   ------ 
 
   Words that should be told to everyone!!  Help me discover  my future,  don't counterproductively ensure I lose out !!

 

 

 

What loop am I stuck in? That it makes more sense that blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

I don't think it's possible to function in life without an ongoing faith in something (s).  Even if SAID  faith is in the wrong thing it is still an ongoing (dedicated or undedicated) - living, breathing, moving pursuit (which may lead to an honest conclusion "fail" - change of direction - different focus  - another faith - but still necessary faith to carry on).

You can't deny that faith is  breath to life - we walk steadily by faith into the unknown future, not knowing even how we walk or exactly where... 

I think you try to blank it out in your zeal to deny God or - faith in God - because  to admit faith in anything would be a suspicion, leave a blank or a vacuum or a question, that you are treating something as a god, (which I say confidently you are).  In the most personal sense you are trusting in your own perception of everything you have accepted as trustworthy and extrapolate that expericne and ongoing  venture of faith forward into the unknown future.