It works for me!

Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
It works for me!

 

Faith in Jesus works for me - it's exciting.  I love the Bible and believe all of it - though there is mystery.  There is mystery everywhere though, right?  I am a incredibly happy believer in Jesus.  I'm not a theologian, I just believe in Jesus.

I understand you can't make anybody believe in Jesus and the Bible, and I don't personally try to do that.  But I highly recommend it from my experience with it.  I can't get enough of the Bible or Jesus.  I can't imagine trying to navigate through life without it at this point in my life. 

I don't think Jesus or God is a thing you can prove to somebody.  I heard about it a large percentage of my life and it didn't mean anything to me until a certain point - then that all changed. 

So do you guys think that I'm fooling myself, not really happy, you don't believe me, or do you really think I can't be as happy or enlightened as you - are you evangelistic in that sense or what?  What is the purpose of this site?   Do you have something better to offer?  If so, what is your gospel? 

 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

Sadly, it seemd the Troll's senility was getting worse, as It now resumed conversations from years ago.

And yet, it was still quite easy...

Quote:
^ Broken record of fail.
The only broken record is the atheist belief in nothing.  The bible is the Eternal Record of jesus (Bread) who is the Fountain of Salvation Water, and there is nothing broken about that.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
SOMEBODY'S KNOCKING ON THE DOOR - SOMEBODY'S RINGING THE BELL

butterbattle wrote:

butterbattle wrote:
I've found all kinds of atrocities, racism, sexism, rape, slavery, and complete contradictions, but I haven't seen any diamonds. Where are they?

Fonzie wrote:
Rightly seen and in context it is all diamonds and gold to me.  True, the Bible tells it the way it is.

It certainly does. 

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20

Say to the Israelites: "A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be cermonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding." Leviticus 12:2-5

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE. 1 John 4:7-8

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exodus 20:5-6

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

For all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. Zephaniah 3:8

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. Exodus 21:20

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. Numbers 31:15-18

 

butterbattle wrote:
Why do I like so many other books more than the Bible?

Fonzie wrote:
Your books fit the road you're on.

Mark Twain, George Orwell, Ayn Rand, Ernest Hemingway?

Aw, now you're making me depressed. You seem to be an incredibly kind person, and yet, you're throwing insults at me to dispel my question. I can easily imagine how a person might want something to be true so badly that it creates a placebo affect; this almost happened to me.   

From my own experience, I assume you already understand all, or at least most, of the problems associated with your religion. If you're intelligent, the issue is not that you have failed to recognize these logical fallacies, it's just that the wonderful feeling that you receive eventually becomes so powerful that it overwhelms reason. This "faith," this "Holy Ghost," possesses the same affect as alcohol, caffeine or nicotine, you become addicted to it.  

Do you think that a compassionate person can go to heaven without following Jesus?    

 

 

 

Butter,

if you Know God - and rightly understand (rightly divide into context)  the Word of God - It IS Perfect, All True and Right  

In order to rightly understand the Thoughts of God and Know God Himself you need the Gift of The Holy Spirit 

a Gift promised to all who believe in Jesus and are Born Anew by the Water and the Spirit - a Gift you can have if you believe in Jesus

God through Paul tells the Corinthians: (paraphrased) 'what man knows the thoughts of man except the spirit which is in him'

I don't know how this works obviously (or neurons, gravity, light photons, etc.) but we think all the time - using our spirit

we use things all the time we don't understand - so this isn't a thing God wants to withhold from us or confuse us with

in the same way - that our spirit "knows" our thoughts - The Holy Spirit KNOWS the Thoughts of God - and makes them available to us, dwelling in us

also Jesus Promises He and The Father will come and dwell with those of us who believe in Jesus

this is why when Paul went to Corinth he had one thought in mind: Jesus and Him Crucified - the gospel was the First Thing, the One Thing

Paul wanted to get the Corinthians through the Door ("born anew into Christ) - so they could have fellowship with God

and understand these spiritual things, know God, have their sins washed away, be secure in Christ, be freed from being "in Satan", break the trap

God through Paul says it is therefore impossible for men and women of the world to understand the Things of God - 

the unspiritual person can't understand the spiritual - it's foreign to them

however; God invites:  "all who will may come" to Him - God invites and wants all to come to Him

since He is the potter - we are the clay...we come to Him on His terms - not vice versa - He is God not us

we submit to the Salvation He has provided and take on the Wedding Garment of the Righteousness of God in Christ

the Word of God says: there is "One LORD, One Faith, One Baptism" - those who believe in Him will be Saved

the Grace of God in Christ Jesus is a Gift to be received through faith in Jesus, His Death for our sins, His Resurrection  to Indestructable Life

those who don't believe are condemned already because they have rejected the Grace of God in Christ Jesus

which is: God paying the price Himself through the death of The Perfect Lamb of God 

God providing The Way, The Truth and The Life for us...in Christ

the Scripture speaks of those that love darkness rather than Light, and lies more than Truth

they condemn themselves by rejecting the gospel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
^ Attempting to rehash lost

^ Attempting to rehash lost arguments with people who aren't active posters is the definition of fail.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

 

The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to fruitlessly respond to old posts.  And yet, it was still quite easy

Quote:
^ Attempting to rehash lost arguments with people who aren't active posters is the definition of fail.

god…blah…Word of god…blah…Holy Spirit…blah…jesus…blah…Water…blah…Father…blah…

He is the Baker - we are the pastries…blah…

christ…blah…Resurrection…blah…Lamb…blah…Scripture …blah…

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
THE GAPS THE GAFFS THE LIE OF THE HIGH CHAIR CANADIAN

Vastet wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

How is it that science can come out with a totally new practice and condemn the old practices of the past?   Why have they got it wrong again and again? 

 

What?

1: That is not an argument.

2: That is fiction.

3: That has nothing to do with what I said.

4: You fail horribly.

Fonzie wrote:

No, I'm not.  I'm consciously deferring to the Words and Precepts and Teachings of my God. 

Wrong. You are your own god. You and only you determine your daily and future decisions. Stop trying to pass off your faults and gifts as something they aren't, belonging to something that doesn't exist.

Fonzie wrote:

That's not from the Scriptures.  That is just a person's impression of something.

I didn't say it was from a scripture or some shit, now did I? Can you say anything of any value at all?

Fonzie wrote:

I'm trying to respectfully understand your perspective and be honest about it.  I think you're able to take discussion about these things without being hurt - or...find the "off" button.  I'm treating you like a man and I get the impression you're whining.

Yet another attack. What a little bitch you are. Get off your high horse and join reality.

Fonzie wrote:

I am honestly telling you my experience in Christ - you are honestly not accepting.

Your experience is a delusion. 

Fonzie wrote:
  You don't have to accept my experience as true, or as yours, but your not accepting doesn't change the fact that my experience of the truth of it is still 100% true to me.

And there are people in psychiatric wards who 100% believe that they are jesus or the Queen of England.  I guess you belong with them.

Fonzie wrote:
There is my living experience with Christ.  I have evidence within myself and it is ongoing. 

Delusion. Not evidence. If you had evidence, you'd have presented it already.

 

Fonzie wrote:
 

Think about it.  If you believed in God you would believe He could manage His book publishing. 

Then why didn't he? Why did he leave it to a bunch of war mongering savages? The only logical assumptions to be made are: A: He's an immoral piece of shit who should be forgotten. Or B: He doesn't exist.

Fonzie wrote:

Many times gold has been found where people had long overlooked. 

Your gold is fools gold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vas,

science has gaps it will never bridge - which you illustrate by your dedication and resulting gaps and non answers

when it comes to conveniences and new uses of God's creation - science does wow us

when you turn the corner and ask science or Vas, "what is truth" -

"where did we come from" -

"what is right and moral" -

"where are we going" -

science and Vas crashes

at that point science and Vas come to a fork in the road - and take it

either science Vas, Vas science -  is honest and admits it/he has no answer and is not God

(I'm trying to imagine you being that honest - imagination fail)

or science/Vas pontificates

with some form of the lie

cloaked in a dissertation wilderness of full-bloom foliage dissemination wording

like a double chocolate sunday in a bananna forest

or the prating arrogance and ignorance of blasphemous ridicule - said ridicule of what is not known or understood

but a poor man with a modicum of understanding...can find them (and you) out - hmmm...el fako senor

but science is not God - it can't give you the answers you don't have, claim you do, claim you gave but didn't...long, long, ago

and far, far away - before time began,

before Vas even tried out the high chair,  

titrated and evoluted to the risen state of self-propelled proud Canadian 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
^ Still spouting pure

^ Still spouting pure fiction that has been thoroughly refuted

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
[Poe (Poe)]

The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to fruitlessly respond to old posts.

 

Fonzie wrote:
...
All lies...projection.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
WHERE YOU GO - THERE YOU ARE - BUT WHERE ARE YOU - WHAT AND WHY

Vastet wrote:
^ Still spouting pure fiction that has been thoroughly refuted

 

 

 

Vas and All,

 

keep in mind that the atheist "chomper" is not sure of anything - not sure of anything that's true or false.  

he gives no reasoning to back up his statements - so he is asking you (or I) to accept his pontification with blind faith

his statements stemming from "no faith" as being true - I guess "because I say so" (to paraphrase the decree of Vas)  

he invites us all into his life of doubt - not knowing what is, what to do, if what I did...is right - or why

the things he is doing or has done or will do he is not sure of - neither the things he is saying...admittedly - he's given no examples

he gives no reason - no truth - no facts - no proof - but he throws firebrands, arrows and death...and "chomps"

he doesn't know where he's come from, where he's going, right or wrong (if "what he likes" is right will he allow everybody that latitude?)

I guess this impresses atheists - but it doesn't impress me

I have a standard of what's True and what's False - the Bible which I have no doubt in - nor...The Shepherd's Voice

I also have no concerns about Vas' contrary view of all that - he's wrong - I have no doubt

I accept the Bible as True - Jesus The Way, The Truth, The Life - The Bible "God Breathed" "Living" "The Word of God"

the earth is God's Footstool - Vas is on it, doesn't know what he's on or what he's under, Who's the potter, who's the clay

it's tragic

but Vas wants it that way -

and...he can have it

 

 

 

 

 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
[Poe (Poe)]

Quote:
Jesus...Truth...Life...Bible...God ...Word
 All lies...fiction...projection.


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie is the perfect

Fonzie is the perfect example of irrational: repeating the same task over and over expecting a different result. The fact that a different result never happens actually qualifies as proof his god doesn't exist. Irony can be a beautiful thing.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
FAITH HAS ENTERED THE BUILDING

Vastet wrote:
Fonzie is the perfect example of irrational: repeating the same task over and over expecting a different result. The fact that a different result never happens actually qualifies as proof his god doesn't exist. Irony can be a beautiful thing.

 

 

Vas,

wow

you sound pretty sure of all this - as if, bored with...and having left the moorings of "scientific method" - have sailed out with faith to fill the gap 

but...faith in what Vas?  how do you know these things?  who told you?  or did you discern them in yourself, in your spirit, your heart of hearts?

did you tell them to yourself?  can you counsel yourself?

 

i.e., (to paraphrase) "this is the way it is"  (has Vas come out to play?)   

he's "the perfect example" (and I thought perfection was not in us)

the "fact" (a fact is a fact...wow - always true - you can take it to the bank)

he's "expecting (x)" (Vas can divine what I'm expecting - now that's a gift)

this "is proof" (a certain repeatable result? - a Pythagorean thing: i.e.,  A squared + B squared = C squared!) 

now, carry on -  what are you sure of that applies to you in real time?

or...it would be perfect irony - me  living "rent free" in your head all day long

 

 

 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
[Poe (Poe)]

Quote:
blah blah blah

All lies...projection.


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie asks questions he

Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

...still quite easy...

Quote:
Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.
 The atheist chomper has no answers, so can only hurl insults.  

I am wasting no time,

Because I am waiting to receive the enternal time of salvation,

Plus Bible ... Jesus ... Truth ... Life ... Word...

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
THE DEEP ATHEIST THOUGHT THAT ISN'T THERE

Vastet wrote:
Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.

 

 

Vas,

if "understanding" is a waste of time

I wonder what you consider productive 

I look at the question of scientific gaps

such as:  what is right, what is wrong

why are we here - how do we help

whence did we come - where do we go - what do we do

but with you - hiding behind the no-faith tree of atheism

chomping on something

the news is: "he's wasting our time - I chomped on that already"

the Vaster is hosting a sampler of what the atheist considers a "waste of time"

a showcase of the atheist' empty suit

the "smoke and mirrors" of atheism

the "no reason" reason

the "take it from me" that represents true "faith in nothingness"

the essence of "diversion from basic questions of life"

the distraction of sarcastic pomp

the chomposity of dismissive whateverism

the "deep thought" that isn't there

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
[Poe (Poe)]

All lies...fiction...projection. 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Fonzie asks questions he

Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

Quote:
Fonzie asks questions he knows were answered, wasting time as usual.
The atheist always answers with "Something evolved from Nothing", wasting his Eterntity as usual.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
INTERPRETATION CREDENTIALS FROM THE TREE MAKER

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

Fonzie, this is what it comes down to for the believer isn't it, they have ultimately had some incredible experience or series of experiences which they have found totally undeniable as being the most direct contact with God.And backed up by your perception of the world thru 'the eyes of faith'.

The problem that we see from our perspective is that we hear very similar and every bit as heart-felt testimony form individuals with a whole range of 'faiths', which have varying degrees of incompatible details, including ones which definitely do not have CHrist and his sacrifice as part of their belief.

To further stir up the sand on which you have built your faith, there are quite a number of people who have been into a faith every bit as deep as you seem to be, who have actually, after further and even deeper study of the Bible, have had the scales of 'faith' fallen from their eyes and mind and seen that deep down, the belief system is built on nothing but wishful thinking.

So you either have to insist that all these people are deceived or are liars, or admit the possibility that you are experiencing exactly what they have, but have yet to work your way thru the 'faith' phase out into the clear light of honest dealing with the world as it is. You may well be happier in your comforting cocoon of faith, so perhaps we should just leave you alone.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men", 'You can't handle the truth!"

 

Well Bob,

We don't know what a day wil bring forth - that's true - so I won't boast about what I will/won't do tomorrow....  but we do know we are all eventually going to die.  That's a blessing because we can prepare for it.  That's a way in which we are different than the cattle on the truck. 

Jesus has rescued me from the prison of the fear of death - through faith in Him and spiritually discerning and experiencing His presence.

I am recommending this good news to you and anyone who will listen.  You have obviously thought about these things and are in the process of choosing.

Does it interest you that the most controversial choice appears to be Jesus?

Don't know if I've noticed that, usually Jesus is the one mentioned on this board by people coming on. What other prophets were you comparing him to?

What makes Jesus any better than Mohammed, Buddha, Vishnu, etc, etc.?

You didn't really address the point that many other people have felt just as strongly about Jesus as you appear to now, and found eventually that it DOES NOT 'work for them', ultimately. Maybe they value truth over comforting fiction...

 

 

Bob,

In Daniel 2 Nebuchadnezzar had a dream.  He wanted to make sure he got the right interpretation - so he required those who were going to interpret the dream to give him the dream as well.  They stalled.  Don't you know you couldn't "stump the band" in the sense that if the king had laid out a dream, any dream - they could have come up with an interpretation, but would it be right?  . Nebuchadnezzar had the right idea though - make them come up with the dream itself - that would show they are qualified to give an interpretation.  

The Word of God said man's life is like a vapor - you could say even like a dream quickly gone.  Since it's here already and we're experiencing the dream of life - there are a ton of interpretations.  But no interpreter has come up with the dream itself (life itself) to prove his credentials to interpret life - except God.  There are all kinds of interpretations - how do we know which one is right? Through faith in the One Who Made the Dream itself.

It's efficient - you "know" things by having faith in the one telling or teaching you things.  If you have faith in God and the Word of God - things are revealed from the heavenly realm that you would never know.  If you are "born anew" you are given the promised Gift of The Holy Spirit which reveals the thoughts of God and enables you to know the Master's Voice.  

I'd really like to hear from you again Bob - are you still leaning against the same tree?  

 

 

 

 

 

 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to fruitlessly respond to old posts.

 

Fonzie wrote:
...
"All lies...projection."

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
lol I've been so incredibly

lol I've been so incredibly successful here that the irrational fool is now doing my job for me. Sweet.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
MOVIE STARS, PRODUCERS, WRITERS, SCRIPTS - NOT A THREAT TO TRUTH

BobSpence wrote:

Fonzie, this is what it comes down to for the believer isn't it, they have ultimately had some incredible experience or series of experiences which they have found totally undeniable as being the most direct contact with God.And backed up by your perception of the world thru 'the eyes of faith'.

The problem that we see from our perspective is that we hear very similar and every bit as heart-felt testimony form individuals with a whole range of 'faiths', which have varying degrees of incompatible details, including ones which definitely do not have CHrist and his sacrifice as part of their belief.

To further stir up the sand on which you have built your faith, there are quite a number of people who have been into a faith every bit as deep as you seem to be, who have actually, after further and even deeper study of the Bible, have had the scales of 'faith' fallen from their eyes and mind and seen that deep down, the belief system is built on nothing but wishful thinking.

So you either have to insist that all these people are deceived or are liars, or admit the possibility that you are experiencing exactly what they have, but have yet to work your way thru the 'faith' phase out into the clear light of honest dealing with the world as it is. You may well be happier in your comforting cocoon of faith, so perhaps we should just leave you alone.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson from the movie "A Few Good Men", 'You can't handle the truth!"

 

 

Bob, 

The way you frame this focuses on "experiences" "feelings".  That's not where it's at with faith.  How do you think the apostle Paul was "feeling" after he had been stoned and left for dead - or was in prison (no TV BTW) for an extended period of time.  The Word of God is Living and Active and able to produce faith in the hearers - a faith that can see beyond feelings and experiences as well as the disfavor of mankind.

You continue in your reasoning to question how someone can discount the shipwreck of other's faith.  This brings up faith in man.  If you are focused on mankind, have fear of man, have confidence in the thinking of man - then I agree this would be quite a blow.  I don't have that focus, fear or confidence.  The fear of man lays a snare - and you illustrate that peril.

As far as "handling the truth" (a quote from a scripted movie delivered by a movie star).  Again you cite the works and productions of man - which are a big deal to you.  Is this where you find your "truth" - from movies?  A lot of people quote from movies these days - again I'm not impressed.  

What if I paraded all the "movie stars", "writers", and "producers" that shipwrecked life in general - committed suicide, etc., and used that against your great source of man's idea of "truth"?  Maybe you couldn't handle that truth.  Anyway, the fact is: Jesus IS The Way, The Truth, and The Life.  Noone comes to the Father except by Him.  

 

 

 


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

The Troll's senility and/or cowardice was getting worse, as it continued to continue fruitlessly responding to old posts.

Fonzie wrote:
...
"All lies...projection." 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Victory!

Victory!

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Atheistextremist
atheist
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5133
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
The Definition of Confirmation Bias

 

 

"Butter,

if you Know God - and rightly understand the Word of God - It IS Perfect, All True and Right "

 

Lols....

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
CONFIRMATION OF WHATEVER

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

"Butter,

if you Know God - and rightly understand the Word of God - It IS Perfect, All True and Right "

 

Lols....

 

 

 

A-Ex,

Not sure what you mean by "confirmation bias" - but I do believe the Word of God totally.  It is the "Living Word of God" - able to Prove Itself, able to Define Itself, able to Produce Faith in the hearers (I haven't seen them here).  That may be what what you are defining.  

Could you describe the atheist "confirmation bias"?  Could you indicate (other than decrying faith in God) where it would lead fellow atheists to the "happy hunting ground" if not hereafter at least here?  

 

 


Atheistextremist
atheist
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5133
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Hey, Fonzie

Fonzie wrote:

 

A-Ex,

Not sure what you mean by "confirmation bias" - but I do believe the Word of God totally.  It is the "Living Word of God" - able to Prove Itself, able to Define Itself, able to Produce Faith in the hearers (I haven't seen them here).  That may be what what you are defining.  

Could you describe the atheist "confirmation bias"?  Could you indicate (other than decrying faith in God) where it would lead fellow atheists to the "happy hunting ground" if not hereafter at least here?  

 

 

A confirmation bias is a tendency to see clarification of pre-existing ideas in new evidence. Everyone has confirmation biases and waves them about all the time, including scientists in dogmatic moments. For this reason I would argue rationalism and empiricism together comprise the best way to approach what is more or less true. Generally, I would argue any person who is absolutely convinced of any particular thing is believing irrationally. But as long as you're not calling for the death of unbelievers Fonzie, I'm not particularly interested in changing your world view. My entire family shares it. There are scarier things in the world than love of Jesus. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

So returneth the maskéd McNinja,

With fresh haggis spiced lightly with ginge-a,

To put in the bowl 

Of the Dishonest Troll,

And coax him back in from the fringe-a.


And yet, it was still quite easy...

Quote:
A confirmation bias is a tendency to see clarification of pre-existing ideas in new evidence.
I am biased towards the Truth, which is the Word of god (Bread).  god (Light) pre-exists everything, so He is the strongest evidence of all.

 

Quote:
Generally, I would argue any person who is absolutely convinced of any particular thing is believing irrationally.
There is nothing irrational of being absolutely convinced of the Absolute Truth, which is jesus (Lamb). 

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
CONFIRMATION BIAS

Atheistextremist wrote:

Fonzie wrote:

 

A-Ex,

Not sure what you mean by "confirmation bias" - but I do believe the Word of God totally.  It is the "Living Word of God" - able to Prove Itself, able to Define Itself, able to Produce Faith in the hearers (I haven't seen them here).  That may be what what you are defining.  

Could you describe the atheist "confirmation bias"?  Could you indicate (other than decrying faith in God) where it would lead fellow atheists to the "happy hunting ground" if not hereafter at least here?  

 

 

A confirmation bias is a tendency to see clarification of pre-existing ideas in new evidence. Everyone has confirmation biases and waves them about all the time, including scientists in dogmatic moments. For this reason I would argue rationalism and empiricism together comprise the best way to approach what is more or less true. Generally, I would argue any person who is absolutely convinced of any particular thing is believing irrationally. But as long as you're not calling for the death of unbelievers Fonzie, I'm not particularly interested in changing your world view. My entire family shares it. There are scarier things in the world than love of Jesus. 

 

 

Hey A-Ex, 

Your answer here is the first real reply I've had in a long time.  It's interesting you say we all have confirmation biases - which is probably true.  Having grown up in a Christian family I had a lot of things hard to let go - but they became obvious untruths so I experienced the difficulty adjusting.  

Another thing that really interests me in this is that everything we "know" involves faith in something or somebody.  The faith that I have in Scripture and God and Jesus was at one time a fragile thing - but has grown as I see it all and experiene it as more and more true and real.  My faith in man has diminished.  My basis for evaluating everything is based in the Word of God.  It's interesting how faith plays a fundamental role in "who" and "what" we know.  I believe Christ is Alive, Living in Me (as promised in Scripture), and thus I have "live support" in "real time".  I know you don't share this but I'm trying to explain how it "works for me".   

I appreciate your tolerance and lack of ridiule.  I know you won't get much support from the masses on that.   

 

 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
For those who are neither

For those who are neither brainwashed nor trolls, but are interested in learning something:

"Another thing that really interests me in this is that everything we "know" involves faith in something or somebody."

This really isn't true. All knowledge stems from faith in oneself above and beyond everything. Faith isn't required for any real and applicable knowledge.

I don't need faith to know about gravity or evolution or life or thought or time or any other useable knowledge. All of it can be tested, predictions made and verified. Attempts to disprove fail. The knowledge gained in such fashion can be passed on to future generations and built upon.

Except that you must have faith in your own existence and your perceptions of all that is not you, without which everything is meaningless. If you don't have faith in your own perceptions, then a demonstration of gravity behaving as predicted is irrelevant and uninteresting. If you don't have faith in your own existence, then all is called into question and nothing matters.

You can have knowledge that you simply have faith in yet remains useful, if you're lazy and never test that knowledge. Never question it and never seek out conflicting evidence. Most people are indeed guilty of this. Read something in a textbook and simply take it on faith. Countless scientists have knowledge they never tested, because that knowledge applies to fields they have no interest in. Indeed everyone believes something they never tested personally, for the simple reason that we don't have the time to test everything billions of people have learned over a hundred thousand years. Not even a small fraction of it.

That's why so many people are religious. They just read something in a book they are told is true, and believe it. Never test it, never question it. It's a necessary side effect of a quality of intelligence which is capable of advancing technologically as we have.

The trick is that with science, even if you don't test it personally; you can. And if you do, you will find that evolution happens. The big bang was an event, if poorly named. That entropy is the prevalent force in the universe. That life is undefinably incredible, yet quite obviously not something that was planned and designed.

When you attempt to test religion, it always fails. It always makes grand claims that are impossible. It often contradicts itself, and always flies in the face of testing and prediction. Only if you do not have faith in yourself can you believe such claims.

The grand irony of faith is that to have faith in gods, you must lack faith in yourself and your perceptions.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

Quote:
For those who are neither brainwashed nor trolls, but are interested in learning something:
Poisoning the well.

Quote:
All knowledge stems from faith in oneself above and beyond everything. Faith isn't required for any real and applicable knowledge.
christ (Water) is the Fountain of All Knowledge, and we know his Truth (Bread) through the gift of Faith.

Quote:
I don't need faith to know about gravity or evolution or life or thought or time or any other useable knowledge.
But you need Faith to know the One who created gravity.  It takes faith in Nothing to deny the Creator and accept evolution. 

Quote:
When you attempt to test religion, it always fails. It always makes grand claims that are impossible.
As jesus (Lamb) said to satan in the desert:  "Do not put the Lord (Light) your god (Lamb) to the test." 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
^ A pathetic fool continues

^ A pathetic fool continues to prove he's a pathetic fool. lol. Fonzie and Brian37 both are more intelligent than zarathustra. Embarrassing.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
MORE THAN YOU WANT TO HEAR

Vastet wrote:
For those who are neither brainwashed nor trolls, but are interested in learning something: "Another thing that really interests me in this is that everything we "know" involves faith in something or somebody." This really isn't true. All knowledge stems from faith in oneself above and beyond everything. Faith isn't required for any real and applicable knowledge. I don't need faith to know about gravity or evolution or life or thought or time or any other useable knowledge. All of it can be tested, predictions made and verified. Attempts to disprove fail. The knowledge gained in such fashion can be passed on to future generations and built upon. Except that you must have faith in your own existence and your perceptions of all that is not you, without which everything is meaningless. If you don't have faith in your own perceptions, then a demonstration of gravity behaving as predicted is irrelevant and uninteresting. If you don't have faith in your own existence, then all is called into question and nothing matters. You can have knowledge that you simply have faith in yet remains useful, if you're lazy and never test that knowledge. Never question it and never seek out conflicting evidence. Most people are indeed guilty of this. Read something in a textbook and simply take it on faith. Countless scientists have knowledge they never tested, because that knowledge applies to fields they have no interest in. Indeed everyone believes something they never tested personally, for the simple reason that we don't have the time to test everything billions of people have learned over a hundred thousand years. Not even a small fraction of it. That's why so many people are religious. They just read something in a book they are told is true, and believe it. Never test it, never question it. It's a necessary side effect of a quality of intelligence which is capable of advancing technologically as we have. The trick is that with science, even if you don't test it personally; you can. And if you do, you will find that evolution happens. The big bang was an event, if poorly named. That entropy is the prevalent force in the universe. That life is undefinably incredible, yet quite obviously not something that was planned and designed. When you attempt to test religion, it always fails. It always makes grand claims that are impossible. It often contradicts itself, and always flies in the face of testing and prediction. Only if you do not have faith in yourself can you believe such claims. The grand irony of faith is that to have faith in gods, you must lack faith in yourself and your perceptions.

 

 

 

Vas,

I appreciate your time giving an extensive answer.  "Faith in someone or something" would apply to you and your view wouldn't it?  You are building on your faith in yourself and you are "someone".  

It's true I don't see how you could start at any other point than faith in yourself to determine what you're looking for in life.  I was a heathen and was wowed by the wisdom of men, science, what most people think, "believe in yourself", "love yourself", a false idea of Christianity being rules and ceremonies, etc. etc.

I never was able to honestly have much faith in myself however.  And in fact the ground was moving under me with the bipolar - and when I turned the corner I saw my perceptions had been grandiose and wrong - so how could I trust myself?  Fortunately, I had already found something that was "rock solid" and not moving - the Word of God.  In and out of sanity I kept reading my Bible seeing more and more how true and right and real it was and is.  

Your science was experimenting on me - as if all the world was a big nail for science's hammer - electroshock treatments.  I woke up not knowing where I was for a while but the problem was not solved but it was held off with heavy sleepy drugs.  I kept working and dealing with this new normal which re-occured about every 2 years.  I read a book "Moodswing" which had just came out and was featured at the library and found what my real diagnosis was - bipolar not schitzophrenic.  I took the book in and told them to put me on lithium - but no, this was foreign to this doctor who soon retired.  

I went off the med.  9 months later it started coming on and I realized it.  I started taking the old med but was falling behind on my mood level.  I had a vivid dream - that I died in the hands of this Jewish doctor - the old psy doc that went back to the '40's with his strategy.  In this vivid dream I died and he became a Christian.  I entered the hospital voluntarily but made him agree to not give me shock treatments.  He agreed.

He gave me more of the old med than I knew the body would take.  I was on the ground in about 3 days - but I had good insurance.  He came in and said, I think you're jumpy, you need shock treatmatents".  I said, "I'm ok and you promised me".  He then went on a mission to get me to sign for treatment.  I wouldn't.  He said he would commit me to the state hospital then they would do whatever if I wouldn't sign ( a lie - not possible because I had done nothing that warranted).  He had a nurse take me into the storeroom and try to flirt with me and get me to sign - I didn't fall for it.  He had my dad come in and sign (my dad didn't know what was best - he was the professional).  

There was a black dude in the same room that was a cool guy.  He said, "you don't have to do this, man - this is America - tell them you won't go".  I told them exactly that.   Later the psy dock came in mad and said, "I thought we had you scheduled..." I said, "you gave me a choice, commit me".  He said, mad as hell, "I didn't give you a choice, your EST will start Wed."   I was sitting there reading my Bible.  I looked him in the eye and said, "Ok, but I've had a dream.  And in that dream I die at your hands in a shock treatment, and I'm hoping and praying it happens."  He jumped back and said - "no shock treatment!"  He came in the next day and said, "I want to remind you there will be no shock treatment".  He released me at the end of the week and I went back to work.

A new doc came to town from a big city.  He called me and said I had been misdiagnosed - I was bipolar.  I needed to be on lithium.  Yeah.  No more problems for over 35 years.  I take a ultra small dose of it now - llke Kay Redfield Jamison said in one of her books.  I just need very little.  It's in the water down in an area in Texas and there are no cases (if you have faith in the book Moodswing).  

So I have some gratitude for science advances.  I enjoy this computer.  But I've learned I can't trust my own perception of things totally - nor theirs - nor science's - nor anybody's.  I haven't however found anything in the Word of God that isn't solid rock true and real.  The Presence of God and Jesus is real to me - and the Word of God is true.  And that is my ruling principle.  

I have abandoned my heathen faiths - wisdom of men, love yourself, believe in yourself, be swayed by what most think, etc.  I have found rest in being mastered by Jesus Christ and comfort and strength and navigation through this maze  in His Living Presence.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 13210
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Unfortunately you were a

Unfortunately you were a victim of the least understood science: medicine. It is in the worst shape because the procedures necessary to advance understanding happen to be unethical. As horrible as your experience was, the steps necessary to advance medicine to vastly improve diagnosis and treatment would require experimenting on people. As much as I would love us to have that knowledge, I don't think I could condone the methods necessary to acquire it at a faster pace.

But the consequence of that is effectively butchery, as the problems the plague our species are manifest in number, and often complex. Hell, the only reason medicine has advanced sufficiently to mend bones and perform transplants is because our own bodies do most of the work.

We've a lot further to go in medicine than in almost every other field of science. Psychology in particular has a history of horrors, as the tools necessary to begin to understand the mind only recently became available, and without those tools a number of methods that can only be described as torture became mainstream. It'll likely be decades before we can treat psychological problems the way we can mend a broken arm.

But we have managed to muddle our way through to some effective treatments despite our blundering, and as a result you were lucky enough to get a treatment that worked; at least to the degree necessary to keep you out of the hospital.

And you shouldn't trust anything blindly, not even science. I myself have long questioned some mainstream beliefs in the scientific community, because I wasn't satisfied with the evidence. But I actually looked at the evidence, and researched the subject for years. I didn't just read a couple paragraphs on the subject and make a conclusion. Science takes work. It builds on itself. Religion is easy, and remains the same forever. It doesn't grow.

But you don't have to abandon religion entirely to embrace science. Religion itself has contributed significantly to science. It can easily be argued it has been a bigger detriment to science in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't erase the contributions of religious scientists.

One thing science will never do is destroy belief in god or gods, nor will it ever attempt to. People might use science to point out flaws in specific religions, but eventually a religion will come along that actually is consistent and has no vulnerabilities in logic and reason, which people won't be able to use science against.

In the interim, however, science is under assault simply because it doesn't mesh with literal interpretations of the bible and other 'holy' books. But we need science. Without science we'd still be migrating for food, dying of simple things like broken bones, and being hunted by predators. Until the inevitable disaster that wiped us out hit and we went extinct. With science we've become top of the food chain, mastered gravity to such a degree we've sent people to a moon (soon to a whole different planet) and a probe (debatably) outside the solar system. With science we will colonise space and continue to advance beyond what we can comprehend. Without it we will die.

So believe in god if you like, but don't attack science along the way. It isn't necessary. It isn't your enemy.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1521
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is offlineOffline
(Poe)

Quote:
And you shouldn't trust anything blindly, not even science. I myself have long questioned some mainstream beliefs in the scientific community, because I wasn't satisfied with the evidence.
I do not trust the Word of god blindly, but in the Light of christ, and I am satisfied by the evidence.

Quote:
Without science we'd still be migrating for food, dying of simple things like broken bones, and being hunted by predators.
Without sin, we would still be in the Garden, with the Tree of Life.  No man-made science can overcome sin, but only the science of god, and his Word. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Fonzie
TheistardTroll
Fonzie's picture
Posts: 1152
Joined: 2008-08-31
User is offlineOffline
GROWING SCIENCE AND CARPENTRY

Vastet wrote:
Unfortunately you were a victim of the least understood science: medicine. It is in the worst shape because the procedures necessary to advance understanding happen to be unethical. As horrible as your experience was, the steps necessary to advance medicine to vastly improve diagnosis and treatment would require experimenting on people. As much as I would love us to have that knowledge, I don't think I could condone the methods necessary to acquire it at a faster pace. But the consequence of that is effectively butchery, as the problems the plague our species are manifest in number, and often complex. Hell, the only reason medicine has advanced sufficiently to mend bones and perform transplants is because our own bodies do most of the work. We've a lot further to go in medicine than in almost every other field of science. Psychology in particular has a history of horrors, as the tools necessary to begin to understand the mind only recently became available, and without those tools a number of methods that can only be described as torture became mainstream. It'll likely be decades before we can treat psychological problems the way we can mend a broken arm. But we have managed to muddle our way through to some effective treatments despite our blundering, and as a result you were lucky enough to get a treatment that worked; at least to the degree necessary to keep you out of the hospital. And you shouldn't trust anything blindly, not even science. I myself have long questioned some mainstream beliefs in the scientific community, because I wasn't satisfied with the evidence. But I actually looked at the evidence, and researched the subject for years. I didn't just read a couple paragraphs on the subject and make a conclusion. Science takes work. It builds on itself. Religion is easy, and remains the same forever. It doesn't grow. But you don't have to abandon religion entirely to embrace science. Religion itself has contributed significantly to science. It can easily be argued it has been a bigger detriment to science in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't erase the contributions of religious scientists. One thing science will never do is destroy belief in god or gods, nor will it ever attempt to. People might use science to point out flaws in specific religions, but eventually a religion will come along that actually is consistent and has no vulnerabilities in logic and reason, which people won't be able to use science against. In the interim, however, science is under assault simply because it doesn't mesh with literal interpretations of the bible and other 'holy' books. But we need science. Without science we'd still be migrating for food, dying of simple things like broken bones, and being hunted by predators. Until the inevitable disaster that wiped us out hit and we went extinct. With science we've become top of the food chain, mastered gravity to such a degree we've sent people to a moon (soon to a whole different planet) and a probe (debatably) outside the solar system. With science we will colonise space and continue to advance beyond what we can comprehend. Without it we will die. So believe in god if you like, but don't attack science along the way. It isn't necessary. It isn't your enemy.

 

Vastet,

I am getting finally a totally different impression of you from this answer - in fact we see several things alike from different viewpoints obviously.  I accept the existence of the different bases of viewpoints and don't have either a arrogant or submissive position to them.  So there's no attack really from either side - you are secure in your base of operations and I in mine and finally it seems we understand and accept that.  I'm not thinking or trying to strong-arm anybody to my view nor deny it which it seems you can handle.  

I don't see science any different than my carpenter work - trying different approaches to problems.  Some things work out and others bomb - and so it develops.  Of course in medicine it's not boards that get cut wrong but people - as a saying I've heard on the job goes:  "we recut they bury their mistakes".  Probably most of them (my doctor I'm sure is this way, I've even done construction work for him) - most doctors want to get it right and try things in the process to arrive at the right.  I see science that way - advancing, feeling its way, etc.  The fruit of the work of many result in Edison's inventions and now have developed into LEDs and microprocessors.  

If you ask science about integrity and morality and life after death - I think science might venture something on the subject but actually they would have to push the issue to think they have the answer.  I don't worry about the answer they come up with because I don't have that kind of faith in science.  I have faith in their microprocessors and transistors but not their ventures into interpreting the dream of life.  They can't tell me my dream - therefore they aren't qualified to interpret (Daniel 2).  

So I would frame this, like this:  we are working, experimenting, assessing each from our base of operations - which is the "base" we have faith and confidence in - and moving forward at different rates and different ways.  But we have different bases of confidence and a different basis of operation.  

I would probably veer trying to describe your base of operations, but my attempt would be something like you have ultimate confidence in yourself and your assessment of everything.  You take points and proof where you find them and assess them still from your own view, your ultimate galaxy of experiences, knowledge, and sensors which you process in your living way however that happens.  But you don't have a faith in a heavenly intelligence for that decision.  I do.  

Up until the point of decision I see myself very similar to you - but beyond my base I see above and beyond me a Infinite Intelligence and before me the Living Word of God which gives me the ultimate answer as I escape from my "heathen faiths" in the wisdom of men, "what most people think", "ideas just flying around".  I come into a different harbor.  

I don't feel threatened by science any more than other carpenters.  Though I might have been at one time I'm not bitter either at the experiment on me.  Like you said in essence; it was a case of "the good with the bad".  

A big difference I see I would share with you concerning the difference in my field of work, my galaxy and yours is this:  it seems you are much more alone.  I take great strength and comfort and joy in The Lord Living in me; the Presence of God with me.  This is very real with me and I'm not threatened by anything because of the way it has come:  that God would send His Son to die for me, then raise Him to an Indestructible Life settles all argument about the Truth of it - and the question of, "will He Keep His Promises?"  My view is that what I'm building on is "Rock Solid".