How many did God kill vs Satan?

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How many did God kill vs Satan?

How many people did God kill in the Bible?

It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all. This list doesn't include those figures.

  SAB, Brick Testament Number Killed Cumulative Total
Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 1
Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, BT 1 2
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 3
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 3003
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 3005
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 3006
A man who picked up sticks on the SabbathNum.15:32-36, BT 1 3007
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 3019+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 3269+
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 17,969+
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 41,969+
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 131,969+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 131,974+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 143,974+
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 153,974+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 153,975+
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 163,975+
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 283,975+
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 284,005+
The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 285,005+
Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 288,005+
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 313,105+
More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 338,105+
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19 50,070 388,175+
God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12 20 388,195+
Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 1 388,196+
"The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1 388,197+
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 388,198+
David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Sam.12:14-18 1 388,199+
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 388,206+
From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 458,206+
A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 458,207+
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 558,207+
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 585,207+
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 585,208+
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 585,209+
Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 585,311+
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 585,343+
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 585,344+
Jezebel2 Kg.9:33-37 1 585,355+
God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 585,358+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 770,358+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1 770,359+
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17 500,000 1,270,359+
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 1,270,360+
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 2,270,360+
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 2,270,361+
Ezekiel's wife Ezek.24:15-18 1 2,270,362+
Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2,270,364+
Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1 2,270,365+


But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?

Well SAB can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. Steve's talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job ... And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. ... And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD ... put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. ... And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house...And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. -- Job 1:1-19 So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. If so, then the tally would be:

Lots!

Source/Credit: Steve Wells Skeptics Annotated Bible Check him out:

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

 

- Brian Sapient


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Bodhitharta
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American Atheist

American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
Ophios wrote:

Quote:
If the whole point of the RRS is to be rational, how rational is it to make a post that says God did anything

 

WE aren't saying, THE BIBLE is saying. This is to show that the xians all loving god, is a a bit a murdering thug. How many times must this be said?

 

Quote:
It seems to me that you are trying to use a brainwashing technique maybe cognitive dissonance.

What? Bod, I suggest you go back on the drugs, your getting very paranoid.

Quote:
Do you believe in God even a little deep inside when you have those moments of anxiety. Did you really purge yourself of God? If you did please tell me why it was necessary?

Do you have anything relevent to say, or are you going to troll around with emotions, lies, hatred, hypocricy, and ego?

 

As soon as someone becomes an atheist they would immediately drop the whole idea that God did or did not do anything, in other words the Holy Bible should be irrelevent. If it is spoken of with relevance then there is something else going on here and not atheism.

Are you saying that someone is not an atheist if they talk about the Bible? Some of us have read the bible and became atheists because of it.

 

Yes, if you discuss the Bible as relevant you are not truly an atheist. If you have become an atheist from reading the Bible then you have chose death over life and there is nothing wrong with that. Atheism was obviously not the solution to a better life otherwise you wouldn't be so bitter, you would be happy like me.

 

We're debating about the Bible, and I'm an atheist.

I haven't chosen death over life, I'm still alive, what's wrong with you? I simply chose not to believe in a god. 

Atheism is much better. I'm not even bitter.

 What are you happy about? Puzzled

 

 

Okay, what are "you" debating about the Bible? Use your own mind! What problem do you find with the Bible?

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


American Atheist
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Bodhitharta

Bodhitharta wrote:
American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
Ophios wrote:

Quote:
If the whole point of the RRS is to be rational, how rational is it to make a post that says God did anything

 

WE aren't saying, THE BIBLE is saying. This is to show that the xians all loving god, is a a bit a murdering thug. How many times must this be said?

 

Quote:
It seems to me that you are trying to use a brainwashing technique maybe cognitive dissonance.

What? Bod, I suggest you go back on the drugs, your getting very paranoid.

Quote:
Do you believe in God even a little deep inside when you have those moments of anxiety. Did you really purge yourself of God? If you did please tell me why it was necessary?

Do you have anything relevent to say, or are you going to troll around with emotions, lies, hatred, hypocricy, and ego?

 

As soon as someone becomes an atheist they would immediately drop the whole idea that God did or did not do anything, in other words the Holy Bible should be irrelevent. If it is spoken of with relevance then there is something else going on here and not atheism.

Are you saying that someone is not an atheist if they talk about the Bible? Some of us have read the bible and became atheists because of it.

 

Yes, if you discuss the Bible as relevant you are not truly an atheist. If you have become an atheist from reading the Bible then you have chose death over life and there is nothing wrong with that. Atheism was obviously not the solution to a better life otherwise you wouldn't be so bitter, you would be happy like me.

 

We're debating about the Bible, and I'm an atheist.

I haven't chosen death over life, I'm still alive, what's wrong with you? I simply chose not to believe in a god.

Atheism is much better. I'm not even bitter.

What are you happy about? Puzzled

 

 

Okay, what are "you" debating about the Bible? Use your own mind! What problem do you find with the Bible?

 

You don't pay attention to what you say, don't you? Just look at how you were trying to define atheist and then you say that if an atheist talks about the Bible (even if he criticizes it) he's not an atheist.

Quote:
As soon as someone becomes an atheist they would immediately drop the whole idea that God did or did not do anything, in other words the Holy Bible should be irrelevent. If it is spoken of with relevance then there is something else going on here and not atheism.

 

You were referring to all of us, which is why I said "we". Then I said, "I'm an atheist" to tell you what I am, because we have some agnostics here, too.

Use your own mind!

The Bible is fiction, but there are people that try to use the Bible to convert me.


Bodhitharta
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American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:
Ophios wrote:

Quote:
If the whole point of the RRS is to be rational, how rational is it to make a post that says God did anything

 

WE aren't saying, THE BIBLE is saying. This is to show that the xians all loving god, is a a bit a murdering thug. How many times must this be said?

 

Quote:
It seems to me that you are trying to use a brainwashing technique maybe cognitive dissonance.

What? Bod, I suggest you go back on the drugs, your getting very paranoid.

Quote:
Do you believe in God even a little deep inside when you have those moments of anxiety. Did you really purge yourself of God? If you did please tell me why it was necessary?

Do you have anything relevent to say, or are you going to troll around with emotions, lies, hatred, hypocricy, and ego?

 

As soon as someone becomes an atheist they would immediately drop the whole idea that God did or did not do anything, in other words the Holy Bible should be irrelevent. If it is spoken of with relevance then there is something else going on here and not atheism.

Are you saying that someone is not an atheist if they talk about the Bible? Some of us have read the bible and became atheists because of it.

 

Yes, if you discuss the Bible as relevant you are not truly an atheist. If you have become an atheist from reading the Bible then you have chose death over life and there is nothing wrong with that. Atheism was obviously not the solution to a better life otherwise you wouldn't be so bitter, you would be happy like me.

 

We're debating about the Bible, and I'm an atheist.

I haven't chosen death over life, I'm still alive, what's wrong with you? I simply chose not to believe in a god.

Atheism is much better. I'm not even bitter.

What are you happy about? Puzzled

 

 

Okay, what are "you" debating about the Bible? Use your own mind! What problem do you find with the Bible?

 

You don't pay attention to what you say, don't you? Just look at how you were trying to define atheist and then you say that if an atheist talks about the Bible (even if he criticizes it) he's not an atheist.

Quote:
As soon as someone becomes an atheist they would immediately drop the whole idea that God did or did not do anything, in other words the Holy Bible should be irrelevent. If it is spoken of with relevance then there is something else going on here and not atheism.

 

You were referring to all of us, which is why I said "we". Then I said, "I'm an atheist" to tell you what I am, because we have some agnostics here, too.

Use your own mind!

The Bible is fiction, but there are people that try to use the Bible to convert me.

 

Who told you the Bible was fiction? And, if it was fiction how is it that the bible said that the earth was round thousands of years before scientist discovered it to be true?

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


Bodhitharta
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He sits enthroned above the

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:21-23 (in Context)

 

How could this be in the Bible if it was false?

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Bodhitharta wrote: Who

Bodhitharta wrote:

Who told you the Bible was fiction? And, if it was fiction how is it that the bible said that the earth was round thousands of years before scientist discovered it to be true?

Correction, the Bible IS fiction.

But does somebody have to tell me? It's pretty obvious, just read it.

1. A talking snake and donkey.

2. Angels.

3. Demons.

4. The flood story.

5. Satan.

6. Jesus walking on water. The list could go on...

 

Where does it say in the Bible that the earth is round? The Bible says that the Earth is flat.

Isaiah 11:12- And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 7:1-And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Job 38:13- That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19- O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.


Daniel 4:11- The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH:

 

Even if the Bible did say the earth was round, I don't think it was the first one.

http://www.phy6.org/stargaze/Scolumb.htm


Bodhitharta
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American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:

Who told you the Bible was fiction? And, if it was fiction how is it that the bible said that the earth was round thousands of years before scientist discovered it to be true?

Correction, the Bible IS fiction.

But does somebody have to tell me? It's pretty obvious, just read it.

1. A talking snake and donkey.

2. Angels.

3. Demons.

4. The flood story.

5. Satan.

6. Jesus walking on water. The list could go on...

Where does it say in the Bible that the earth is round? The Bible says that the Earth is flat.

Isaiah 11:12- And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Revelation 7:1-And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Job 38:13- That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

Jeremiah 16:19- O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.


Daniel 4:11- The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH:
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

Even if the Bible did say the earth was round, I don't think it was the first one.

Do you understand what analogies and metaphors are? Also, when you look on a map do you see curves or do you see North, East. West and South?

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


American Atheist
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Bodhitharta wrote: He sits

Bodhitharta wrote:

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:21-23 (in Context)

 

How could this be in the Bible if it was false?

Actually, it could be saying that the Earth is a flat disk.

I forgot to mention this one.

Matthew 4:8- Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

(Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.)

That every kingdom or society on earth can be seen from the top of a high enough mountain only if the earth is flat is self-evident. From any point on a globe, no part of the opposite hemisphere could be seen no matter how high one climbed. Luke's account of the same incident (4:5) is ambiguous and could be true on either a flat or a global earth, but Matthew makes clear that either the earth is flat or he was a liar.

Luke 4:5- And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

You only gave me one verse. The Bible says that the earth is flat like about SIX times. (Seven times if you count Luke 4:5)

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004round.html


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Bodhitharta wrote: Do you

Bodhitharta wrote:
Do you understand what analogies and metaphors are? Also, when you look on a map do you see curves or do you see North, East. West and South?

Why would you use analogies and metaphors to talk about the shape of the earth? You're the worst defender of the Bible I've seen so far. 


Bodhitharta
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American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:21-23 (in Context)

How could this be in the Bible if it was false?

Actually, it could be saying that the Earth is a flat disk.

I forgot to mention this one.

Matthew 4:8- Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them.

(Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.)

That every kingdom or society on earth can be seen from the top of a high enough mountain only if the earth is flat is self-evident. From any point on a globe, no part of the opposite hemisphere could be seen no matter how high one climbed. Luke's account of the same incident (4:5) is ambiguous and could be true on either a flat or a global earth, but Matthew makes clear that either the earth is flat or he was a liar.

Luke 4:5- And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

You only gave me one verse. The Bible says that the earth is flat like about SIX times. (Seven times if you count Luke 4:5)

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004round.html

Al- Quran 79:30  
 
 
                “And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” *

Al- Quran 21:33  
 
 
“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.”

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


Bodhitharta
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American Atheist wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:
Do you understand what analogies and metaphors are? Also, when you look on a map do you see curves or do you see North, East. West and South?

Why would you use analogies and metaphors to talk about the shape of the earth? You're the worst defender of the Bible I've seen so far. 

 

Do you not understand the depth of a metaphor and how you yourself use them everyday to comminicate effectively. For instance you haven't "seen" me at all yet you wrote the worse you've "seen". You just don't have a very good grasp of language.

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Bodhitharta wrote: Do you

Bodhitharta wrote:
Do you not understand the depth of a metaphor and how you yourself use them everyday to comminicate effectively.

You didn't answer the question. Nor did you show me which parts are metaphors, because there aren't any. 

Quote:
For instance you haven't "seen" me at all yet you wrote the worse you've "seen". You just don't have a very good grasp of language.

 

You fucking moron. Sad 


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Bodhitharta wrote: Al-

Bodhitharta wrote:

Al- Quran 79:30
 
 
“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” *

Al- Quran 21:33
 
“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.”

Now using the Quran, huh?  

You're still not responding to the verses I gave you.  


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Bodhitharta wrote: Who told

Bodhitharta wrote:
Who told you the Bible was fiction? And, if it was fiction how is it that the bible said that the earth was round thousands of years before scientist discovered it to be true?

Oh, and if a book has a few facts, it can still be fiction.

Read about historical fiction.


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Bodhitharta

Bodhitharta wrote:
 
 
 
“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.”

This comes straight from Aristotle and his celestial sphere concept (which is wrong btw), invented 1000 years before the Quran was written. There is nothing unique or special about this.


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Bodhitharta wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:21-23 (in Context)

 

How could this be in the Bible if it was false?

Becuase the Earth isn't a circle, it isn't even flat, heck it isn't an ordinary sphere. it's an oblate Spheroid (a slight bulge around the equator)

 

EDIT: I got my terms mixed up. 

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American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:

Al- Quran 79:30
 
 
“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” *

Al- Quran 21:33
 
“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.”

Now using the Quran, huh?

You're still not responding to the verses I gave you.

Here is a cheap little picture, for you two. 

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g138/Ophios86/Eggearth.png

Now as I siad in the picture, the Quran is much much closer... but still off. Which would be okay, if it wasn't divinly inspired. Not unless Allah is just as lazy as God.

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I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


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American Atheist wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:
Who told you the Bible was fiction? And, if it was fiction how is it that the bible said that the earth was round thousands of years before scientist discovered it to be true?

Oh, and if a book has a few facts, it can still be fiction.

Read about historical fiction.

 

The facts in this case are occuring before they are known to be facts. If you understood how a fiction book is composed you might get a better understanding of why the Bible cannot be considered a fictional work. Are you really saying that all the Characters of the bible are fictional? If you are, there really is no need for us to continue this conversation until you get a better grasp of history. BTW, The Jewish people are real not fictional and Israel is a Real nation even today.

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Ophios wrote: American

Ophios wrote:
American Atheist wrote:
Bodhitharta wrote:

Al- Quran 79:30
 
 
“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” *

Al- Quran 21:33
 
“It is He Who created The Night and the Day, And the sun and the moon: All (the celestial bodies) Swim along, each in its Rounded course.”

Now using the Quran, huh?

You're still not responding to the verses I gave you.

Here is a cheap little picture, for you two. 

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g138/Ophios86/Eggearth.png

Now as I siad in the picture, the Quran is much much closer... but still off. Which would be okay, if it wasn't divinly inspired. Not unless Allah is just as lazy as God.

 

The eggs I eat are a lot closer to your first picture than your second picture.

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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Bodhitharta wrote: The eggs

Bodhitharta wrote:
The eggs I eat are a lot closer to your first picture than your second picture.

You got one sick chicken then. 

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Bodhitharta
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Ophios wrote: Bodhitharta

Ophios wrote:

Bodhitharta wrote:
The eggs I eat are a lot closer to your first picture than your second picture.

You got one sick chicken then. 

 

ROTF.....LOLLaughing

Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show patience, and charge one another to show compassion.


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God Does Exist

Hello,

I just joined this forum and thanks to the moderators for giving us a place to share our opinions.

I have noticed that most of who deny God base their reasoning on either judging the church for mistakes it has committed, or judging God's fairness.  In order not to mix things up, let us distinguish the two topics and discuss each aside.  That is, let's first study "if God exists," and then "if God is fair."

Some might say that we prove the inexistence of God because we find He is not fair, or because His church has been involved in wars.  I can prove to these people that their assumption is wrong.  There are lots of proofs of the existence of God.  The question is, do you want to hear these proofs or just repeat words blindly that God does not exist?

That's why I separate the two issues.  The existence of God can be easily proven.  We all have some idea of that but we forget or close our eyes.  The prophecies in the Bible are one of the proofs of God's existence, because if it were not God who prophesied them, then it would be the man.  But history has shown that the man does not have the full capacity to predict the future for tens, hundrends, or sometimes thousands of years.  Miracles are the second proofs of God's exitence, and Jesus' miracles were done in front of people, and the Gospels were written just shortly after the miracles were done.  That is, the Gospels were written while the people who had received the miracles were still alive.  If the miralces were wrong, then those people could have denied the truth of the Bible; but none had done that meaning that what was written was correct.  Miracles occur nowadays too.  If anyone likes to read a "free" article about the proofs of God's existence, please email me and I'll send you a copy of my article (micho_36@yahoo.com).

Moving to the next issue, God's fairness, one has to follow things from scratch, and not take specific events separately.

Yes, God killed people.  But He killed sinful people, not innocent ones.  He gave us life and He has the right to take back this life if we are sinful to Him.  The sin entered to the mankind since Adam and Eve obeyed Satan by eating from the tree of knowledge.

By the time God created the man, Satan (who was earlier the archangel Lucifer) had rebelled against God's ruling.  Satan wanted the angels to worship him instead of God.  So, when God created Adam and Eve, He wanted to test the man's faithfullness.  Would the man trust and worship God or Satan?  By eating from the tree of knowledge, the man chose to obey Satan.

One might wonder, wouldn't the omnipotent God know in advance whether the man would obey Him or Satan?  Yes God knows, for sure.  But the word "test" is not to make God know, but actually to tell us that some men choose to obey Satan.  If there was no such testing, one would have asked God, "Why do you think we will obey Satan; we won't."  But by letting the test goes on, God has showed the mankind that some men would obey Satan.  The testing aims at showing the man not God.

The testing of the man has another benefit as well.  It makes the man know, from now on, that if he disobeys God, he will enter into trouble.

Some might wonder, if God created a perfect Lucifer and perfect Adam and Eve, then why would have sin entered to the world from scracth?  That is, why did they commit mistake from scratch if they were perfect?

The answer is "free will."  The word perfect does not mean programmed.  The man (and Satan) were not created programmed to obey God.  He was created "conditionally perfect."   That is, if the man relies on and follows God, he would live forever happy.  If the man rebels against God, he would have willingly chosen to break his ties with God, and hence break down the perfect body he has.

The mistake of some Christian scholars is that they assume that the man was created perfect.  This is wrong.  The man was not created omniscient; he needs God to enlighten his steps.

 

To sum it up, the proofs of God's existence are so powerful.  For this reason, one should consider the other issues of Christianity.  Was the man perfect?  Is God fair?  God is fair, and the man was not all perfect.

Michel


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Quote: Yes, God killed

Quote:
Yes, God killed people.  But He killed sinful people, not innocent ones.

And you run into a problem, for you see. Sinful doesn't always mean bad, and bad doesn't always mean sinful.  What would make someone sinful, wouldn't always make them look bad to us (Someone like me).

and here is something else, all the suffering in Egypt, WAS HIS FUALT!

He purposefully made pharaoh's heart hard so said pharaoh wouldn't let moses and his people go, and give god a good reason to tourture and maim.

In other words, your god just loves tourture.

And then there is noah's ark. All those people sinned, so he drowned them.

Ummm... couldn't he have, I don't know, stepped in and ummm... told them to knock it off? Before the sin fest happened? 

Quote:
He gave us life and He has the right to take back this life if we are sinful to Him.

Gee, I don't remember getting a contract from him. I don't really remember WANTING to be alive. And besides it's mine, IT'S MINE! 

Quote:
if God created a perfect Lucifer and perfect Adam and Eve, then why would have sin entered to the world from scracth?

He didn't make a perfect Adam and Eve. He made the first humans without the ability of knowing good and evil. Of courseeveryone "Knows" that diobeying god is bad, but then they didn't know that.

 So I suffer.

Quote:
The answer is "free will."

And your god gets less powerful by the day. Becuase he somehow can't make people who can only make good choices. 

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Bodhitharta wrote: Who told

Bodhitharta wrote:
Who told you the Bible was fiction? And, if it was fiction how is it that the bible said that the earth was round thousands of years before scientist discovered it to be true?

http://www.youtube.com/v/nbCeeREA5-g

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. ~ Albert Eins


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There was a huge thread

There was a huge thread about this a while back, don't remember where though.


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Here is the original

Here is the original thread.

How many did God kill vs Satan?

 


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I would say that

I would say that technically, God has been at the very least indirectly involved with all deaths in the history of the world. After all, he's the one who made it so that man could die in the first place, and he condemned Adam and all of his descendents to death after he and Eve ate the apple.


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I read somewhere about

I read somewhere about analogies between satan tempting eve to eat the apple and prometheus giving fire to man. They both defied god's will and man got knowledge and they were both punished for it. Prometheus, however, was seen as a hero in Greek mythology instead of tempting man to sin, he gave them knowledge. 






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LosingStreak06 wrote: I

LosingStreak06 wrote:
I would say that technically, God has been at the very least indirectly involved with all deaths in the history of the world. After all, he's the one who made it so that man could die in the first place, and he condemned Adam and all of his descendents to death after he and Eve ate the apple.

 

Well, what do you know? A theist who recognizes the ramifications of the Panglossian error!

Yes, there wouldn't be 'death' in the first place in a system with an omnipotent god, unless the god created the concept, and then allowed for death to occur.  

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


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Jarem Asyder wrote: I read

Jarem Asyder wrote:
I read somewhere about analogies between satan tempting eve to eat the apple and prometheus giving fire to man. They both defied god's will and man got knowledge and they were both punished for it. Prometheus, however, was seen as a hero in Greek mythology instead of tempting man to sin, he gave them knowledge.

For the record, the Satan is not a character who appears in the book of Genesis.   There's a serpent that you can read about in Genesis, but Satan doesn't make his first appearance in the bible until the book of Job (and even that is arguably a mistranslation).  The idea that the serpent is Satan is an unfounded assumption.

But the analogy is valid and it emphasizes the point that Christians struggle with the story that obviously shows the God of Genesis setting up humans to fail.  The Gnostic Christians dealt with the problem by making the serpent the hero (like Prometheus, which makes sense since the Gnostics were Greek) and making the God of Genesis the villain. 

The Gnostics held that the God of Genesis, who created the universe, was an evil deceiver god (sometimes called the "blind god" or Simeon or the Demiurge), and that creation was the Demiurge's method of keeping human souls imprisoned in material reality so that they coudn't rejoin the true God (also called God the father, the God over God or the Monad).  The serpent was helping out Adam & Eve by giving them that key bit of knowledge about good and evil.

But of course all those versions of the creation story were burned--along with some of their authors--when the Roman Christians seized power.

"After Jesus was born, the Old Testament basically became a way for Bible publishers to keep their word count up." -Stephen Colbert


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Who killed more people in the Bible, God or Satan?

Feel free to include the various genocides committed by God's "Chosen Ones"; but it doesn't change the answer.


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Your post about the number God killed vs satan

In every definition of the word kill I could find it requires ones unjustified actions against another.  In Genesis when God commands Adam not to eat of the tree of good and evil he also warns him, it will cause death ( in the day you eat of it you will surely die).  However, Adam eventual chooses to eat of the fruit and accepts death for himself and mankind, until that point man was perfect.  When Adam and Eve choose to take death unto themselves it became apart of what they passed on to their children.  Man had been corrupted by his own choice.  Lastly, God being the creator of life, it belongs to him.  It seems only right that he would be able to take something that belongs to him.


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livefree wrote: Lastly,

livefree wrote:
Lastly, God being the creator of life, it belongs to him. It seems only right that he would be able to take something that belongs to him.

 

Sorry, that doesn't justify.

I made something, and I give it to someone else, it is theirs.

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s0m3b0dy wrote: i find it

s0m3b0dy wrote:


i find it interesting how you were the only person who dared attempt to question my post. very well. allow me to answer you your response. abortion is wrong. not only by christian standards, religious standards, but even by yours,you would think it was wrong . y ? according to you, this is the only life we get correct? well if that is so, by having an abortion you are denying a newborn child his life.


In case you did not understand this, abortion does not involve denying a newborn child its life. Abortions are performed on blastocysts/embyros/fetuses in the womb - not children that have been born.

Quote:
his only life, just because you don't feel suited to have a child. if i knew for a fact this was all there was for me, and that i would never come to liveagain after i died, i sure as hell would rather go hungry for a few days then to get dismembered inside my mother before i was even born. abortion is murder.


Really? Abortion is murder? The god of the bible seems to delight in slaughtering unborn fetesus - see 2 Kings 15:16 & Hosea 9:16 & Hosea 13:16

Quote:
now ill answer your secound post. the Bible says that God was "the alpha and the omega" "the BEGGINNG and the end". what does this mean? HE is what all things originated from, and where all things which have an end, end. HE was always there, because he IS time, he IS the beggining.


Nice use of pretense... perhaps you could provide some logic and/or evidence to back up your emotionally-charged bullshit?

Quote:
on to your infinite universe theory. much proof has been found of "background radiation" floating around in theuniverse , left over from the explosion of the big bang (creation), explain to me how this radiation got here if not from the big bang. what about the observation made by many scientists which point out that the universe is expanding? if the universe has always been expanding, obviously it started off small, to get big.


WTF are you talking about? Are you attempting to refer to "dark energy and matter"? By the way - Any and ALL proof for the existence of a god remains lacking on an absolute level... perhaps you should find backup for your bullshit before spouting your absurd nonsense.

Quote:
what about the delicate balance of things? if the expansion of the universe was off by one billion billionth, the universe would have recollapsed befre it ever got to its present size.


What?!?! says who? Stop pulling bullshit out of your ass and attempting to pass it as fact. You're going to get no respect on this forum by being a lying super-hypocrite.

Quote:
what about the earth? i dont think i need to point out how perfectly balanced nature is here, before men screwed it all up that is.


What the fuck in nature is "perfectly balanced"?!?!?!? So... are you denying the occurance of earthquakes, volcanoes, storms of all kinds, plagues, natural disasters, diseases...?

Storms occur because of the chaotic inbalances in the atmosphere... hurricane Katrina is hardly an example of atmospheric stability.

Quote:
feel free to attempt and answer my other questionsin my previous post. once you have an answer for which i cannot contradict in any way for all my questions regarding the matter, i will believe you.

and if you want to imply that much of it could be false, that perhaps the bible doesent tell the truth, then much of this site would be uncredible as well wouldn't it?


What the fuck? what event in the bible can you extract that you can show is not mythologized? are you SERIOUSLY this fucking naive and ignorant?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Quote:
after all, pretty much what you are doing is attacking religions who worship the one true god of kindness, love, and justice. why don't you attempt to target pagan gods? gods of the aztecs which were offered human sacrifice veyoften,or the greatstone owl in the bohemian gove which human sacrifice still occurs secretly? considering this, if thereis anyone who is evil, wicked, and trying to limit people's minds, it is you, for only attacking the "good" God, and attempting to say the"bad" ones are good.


 What religion promotes a good god? Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, and many pagan religions' gods are all violent, evil, and sadistic beings. Yours is the Christian god of the bible, yes? Did you not review the beginning post of this thread before making such a stupid claim that god is good?!?!? Note to you: stop being a total moron!

Quote:
and i just saw the clips of the "God who wasent there. your contradictions are pathetic. i honoestly don't have time to write the answer to those things here, but if you guys have any voice communication medium such as "ventrilo" "teamspeak" or yahoo, to name a few, contact me. i would love to discuss such matters with you. however, allow me to point out that if you have commited the "blasphemy challenge", do not bother, even the bible says you should not waste time on those you cannot save.


 You probably don't have the ability comprehend the contradictions. And, of course, you're a super-cultist... so you don't want to admit your Christ Cult is full of shit, anyway... of course the bible says don't waste your time on those you cannot save... you want to know why - because the ones you cannot save are the ones whom know better than your rediculous bullshit - and your cult doesn't want you to wake up from their hypnotic control.


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how many did god kill vs satan?

sharky wrote:
Besides, Christians believe that God has conquered death and has even better things in store in the next life, so if you believe he exists (I'm assuming you're saying he does as you accuse him of 'smiting' people).

No, it is learned objection to claims made by theists who claim to know the Bible.  it's rational to use the book that some people find holy to dispute their points.


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we could learn a lesson from

we could learn a lesson from satan/


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ok then.  So we created

ok then.  So we created evil, because God gave us 'free will.  However, ee have to follow a set of rules, otherwise, we will go to hell.  How can this be called 'free'  I see it as blackmail. 'Do what you want, if you do the wrong thing, you will be punished severly'

E.V


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This is a silly comparison

God created all people. Therefore he is entitled to kill whomever he pleases and be morally justified. Satan created no one. When he kills someone, he is a murderer because he is not morally justified. If I build a computer and then destroy it, I have done nothing wrong. If I build a computer and you destroy it without my permission, you are morally wrong. God has killed more than Satan - no big deal.

 


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Christian Nerd wrote: God

Christian Nerd wrote:

God created all people. Therefore he is entitled to kill whomever he pleases and be morally justified.

Because parents created a child, they have the right to kill it? 

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Susan wrote: Christian

Susan wrote:
Christian Nerd wrote:

God created all people. Therefore he is entitled to kill whomever he pleases and be morally justified.

Because parents created a child, they have the right to kill it? 

I don't know where you stand Susan, but according to the pro-choice people - parents have the right to partially birth the child and kill it.  That is the current law.  AND YET, if a stranger kicks a woman in the stomach and destroys the fetus - that is manslaughter.  So according to the current law - the answer to your question is YES.  (Just to be clear - a partial birth abortion is a fully developed child)

Secondly, Totally stupid thread.  Complete lack of understanding concerning the sovereignty of God on Brian's part, but I certainly do not expect anything more from him.

Did America have the right to go and kill Nazis because they were in the wrong?

Does God have the right to destroy humans because we are in the wrong? 

What is stupid about this thread?

If you are posting this for atheists - You don't believe in God therefore He didn't kill anyone.

If you are posting this for theists - God is sovereign and righteousness is not a standard outside of God by which He is measured.  God is righteous and therefore what He does is right.

SO WHAT HAVE YOU ACCOMPLISHED?  You have simply stated that the God of the Bible has not done what YOU think He should have done.  God does not meet your standards.  Ah YES - Moral relativism pops up again.  Dude, you don't believe he exists - so really by your standards - God has done nothing wrong.

Go ahead, you can shut this thread down for making no sense.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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you will all die [and

you will all die [and athiests hate this reality]


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Quote: Did America have

Quote:
Did America have the right to go and kill Nazis because they were in the wrong?

Does God have the right to destroy humans because we are in the wrong?

So,
America = God
Nazis = Humans

What a terrible analogy. I like apples and oranges, though.


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Zanaver

Zanaver wrote:
Quote:
Did America have the right to go and kill Nazis because they were in the wrong?

Does God have the right to destroy humans because we are in the wrong?

So,
America = God
Nazis = Humans

What a terrible analogy. I like apples and oranges, though.

What is terrible is your ability to comprehend.  The issue is relativism.  Brian looks at the actions of God from his point of view and decides that God has done wrong.  Again, he has no understanding of God's sovereignty.

America = God - not even close.  Not what I said and not what I attempted to convey.  If I need to explain to you why America was right in fighting against the Nazis you need more help than I can give you.  When you understand the sovereignty of God you will also understand why it is right for God to take any life that He wants. 

BY THE WAY:  Brian's math is really messed up.  God holds life in his hand.  He chooses when EVERY life is extended or extinguished. 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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So what's your point,

So what's your point, Bryan?   God creates, he destroys.   So?  

"do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."  -matthew 10:28

 

 

 


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Denae wrote: So what's

Denae wrote:

So what's your point, Bryan? God creates, he destroys. So?

"do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -matthew 10:28

So it is ok to destroy/kill what you create?  If a man and women have a child, is it ethical or right for them to kill that child?  Of course not.  Also, if God is omniscient, then why would he create something that he knows he would have to destroy later?  Indeed, not just destroy, but send them to hell for all eternity.


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Piper2000ca wrote: Denae

Piper2000ca wrote:
Denae wrote:

So what's your point, Bryan? God creates, he destroys. So?

"do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." -matthew 10:28

So it is ok to destroy/kill what you create?  If a man and women have a child, is it ethical or right for them to kill that child?  Of course not.  Also, if God is omniscient, then why would he create something that he knows he would have to destroy later?  Indeed, not just destroy, but send them to hell for all eternity.

I will answer this question again.  Susan already asked it. 

According to America, parents DO have the right to kill their child.  It is called abortion.  Before you start the debate about if it is a fully developed person  - parents have the right to partially birth the child and kill it.  That is the current law.  AND YET, if a stranger kicks a woman in the stomach and destroys the fetus - that is manslaughter (at any point in the pregnancy).  So according to the current law - the answer to your question is YES.  The parents have the right to kill the child and the stranger does not.  (Just to be clear - a partial birth abortion is a fully developed child)

Also to be clear, I do not believe parents have this right, because I know that the parents do not create the baby.  God does.  But since you do not believe in God, again this is a stupid post.  According to you, God didn't kill anyone. 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


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How many did Satan give

How many did Satan give life? Hmmm...


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What?

If you're a metaphysical naturalist then life has no value and this whole thread is an exercise in futility.  What rational explanation do you have to be offended at anyone killing anything?

Spumoni


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Never saw this

Never saw this before....................just.......wow.


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Numbers

OK, so you want to play the numbers game.

Let's begin with this.  Satan hasn't killed anyone.  God has killed MILLIONS.

If you are wondering if YOU are safe, then what are the odds? Are they stacked in your favour?

Brian is tossing around numbers like salad. 

The Bible gives us numbers like "many there are that strive to enter the wide gate. Few that strive to enter the narrow gate. Not really specific, that, is it? How about specific odds mentioned?

There shall be two in a field, one taken, the other left. Fifty-fifty.

Or "Lord, here are thine ninety and nine, and you go to seek the one?" Hmmn. One in a hundred.

How about Lot (one in a whole city!),

Noah (one in the entire world).

Job?  God killed his entire family, just on a bet.

 

The question for YOU is, "How badly do you want to triffle with someone with this kind of power?"

Consider this farther.  Forget all these peon men and women and children.  God killed his OWN SON on account of sin.  His own Son who was worth more than all the men, women, and children on earth - COMBINED.

Now ask yourself this question:

 

What do you think he will do to YOU?

 

Still wanna play with numbers?

 

 


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 BTW - BZ calls Brian on

 

BTW - BZ calls Brian on his source.

 

Brian didn't compile these numbers himself from his own study.  Hell, I'd respect him for that, if he did. 

No... He took someone else's work and published it.

If this weren't true, he could tell me, right now, the name of the most obvious, glaring omission from his list.

 And, no... it isn't "Jesus."  I just gave you that one.

 

Like that line from Jeff Goldblum in Jurrasic Park: "You didn't do the work yourself.  You stood on the shoulders of greater men...."