How many did God kill vs Satan?

Sapient
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How many did God kill vs Satan?

How many people did God kill in the Bible?

It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all. This list doesn't include those figures.

  SAB, Brick Testament Number Killed Cumulative Total
Lot's wife for looking back Gen.19:26, BT 1 1
Er who was "wicked in the sight of the Lord" Gen.38:7, BT 1 2
Onan for spilling his seed Gen.38:10, BT 1 3
For dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf Ex.32:27-28, 35, BT 3000 3003
Aaron's sons for offering strange fire before the Lord Lev.10:1-3, Num.3:4, 26:61, BT 2 3005
A blasphemer Lev.24:10-23, BT 1 3006
A man who picked up sticks on the SabbathNum.15:32-36, BT 1 3007
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (and their families) Num.16:27, BT 12+ 3019+
Burned to death for offering incense Num.16:35, 26:10, BT 250 3269+
For complaining Num.16:49, BT 14,700 17,969+
For "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT 24,000 41,969+
Midianite massacre (32,000 virgins were kept alive) Num.31:1-35, BT 90,000+ 131,969+
God tells Joshua to stoned to death Achan (and his family) for taking the accursed thing. Joshua 7:10-12, 24-26, BT 5+ 131,974+
God tells Joshua to attack Ai and do what he did to Jericho (kill everyone). Joshua 8:1-25, BT 12,000 143,974+
God delivered Canaanites and Perizzites Judges 1:4, BT 10,000 153,974+
Ehud delivers a message from God: a knife into the king's belly Jg.3:15-22, BT 1 153,975+
God delivered Moabites Jg.3:28-29, BT 10,000 163,975+
God forces Midianite soldiers to kill each other. Jg.7:2-22, 8:10, BT 120,000 283,975+
The Spirit of the Lord comes on Samson Jg.14:19, BT 30 284,005+
The Spirit of the Lord comes mightily on Samson Jg.15:14-15, BT 1000 285,005+
Samson's God-assisted act of terrorism Jg.16:27-30, BT 3000 288,005+
"The Lord smote Benjamin" Jg.20:35-37, BT 25,100 313,105+
More Benjamites Jg.20:44-46 25,000 338,105+
For looking into the ark of the Lord 1 Sam.6:19 50,070 388,175+
God delivered Philistines 1 Sam.14:12 20 388,195+
Samuel (at God's command) hacks Agag to death 1 Sam.15:32-33 1 388,196+
"The Lord smote Nabal." 1 Sam.25:38 1 388,197+
Uzzah for trying to keep the ark from falling 2 Sam.6:6-7, 1 Chr.13:9-10 1 388,198+
David and Bathsheba's baby boy 2 Sam.12:14-18 1 388,199+
Seven sons of Saul hung up before the Lord 2 Sam.21:6-9 7 388,206+
From plague as punishment for David's census (men only; probably 200,000 if including women and children) 2 Sam.24:13, 1 Chr.21:7 70,000+ 458,206+
A prophet for believing another prophet's lie 1 Kg.13:1-24 1 458,207+
God delivers the Syrians into the Israelites' hands 1 Kg.20:28-29 100,000 558,207+
God makes a wall fall on Syrian soldiers 1 Kg.20:30 27,000 585,207+
God sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet 1 Kg.20:35-36 1 585,208+
Ahaziah is killed for talking to the wrong god. 2 Kg.1:2-4, 17, 2 Chr.22:7-9 1 585,209+
Burned to death by God 2 Kg.1:9-12 102 585,311+
God sends two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head 2 Kg.2:23-24 42 585,343+
Trampled to death for disbelieving Elijah 2 Kg.7:17-20 1 585,344+
Jezebel2 Kg.9:33-37 1 585,355+
God sent lions to kill "some" foreigners 2 Kg.17:25-26 3+ 585,358+
Sleeping Assyrian soldiers2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36 185,000 770,358+
Saul 1 Chr.10:14 1 770,359+
God delivers Israel into the hands of Judah 2 Chr.13:15-17 500,000 1,270,359+
Jeroboam 2 Chr.13:20 1 1,270,360+
"The Lord smote the Ethiopians." 2 Chr.14:9-14 1,000,000 2,270,360+
God kills Jehoram by making his bowels fall out 2 Chr.21:14-19 1 2,270,361+
Ezekiel's wife Ezek.24:15-18 1 2,270,362+
Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-10 2 2,270,364+
Herod Acts 12:23, BT 1 2,270,365+


But how does this compare with Satan? How many did he kill in the Bible?

Well SAB can only find ten, and even these he shares with God, since God allowed him to do it as a part of a bet. Steve's talking about the seven sons and three daughters of Job. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job ... And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. ... And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD ... put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. ... And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house...And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. -- Job 1:1-19 So it seems that both Satan and God share the blame (or the credit) for these killings. If so, then the tally would be:

Lots!

Source/Credit: Steve Wells Skeptics Annotated Bible Check him out:

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

 

- Brian Sapient


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EGWG
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God's "psychopathic" killing sprees

No, I am not saying that God kills people because they will die later. What I wrote was aimed at the first post which says that God has killed everyone and Satan is the “good” guy.

 

Your analogy was well written but does not apply to God. You see, you are talking as if God is a man like us. If I decided to blow myself up and take you with me because you are an atheist (as an extremist Muslim would) I am committing murder. Why? Because I am just as guilty as you are. I have no right to choose whether you should live or die because I have committed the same sin (Atheism is transgression of the First and Second Commandments) as you have. We are both guilty before the God I might claim I am serving when I blow myself up.

 

Second, the place in the Bible from which you are drawing is the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, Jesus Christ had not come to die yet. So, all men stood before God as totally responsible for their actions and without hope for salvation apart from total obedience to the Laws of God.

 

When you talk about the first dog biting the “chosen” dog, the second dog that was fornicating, and the third dog that looked back at his friend, you talk about how unfair God is for punishing people for actions which in your eyes “aren’t that bad”.

 

My question is this, IF, bear with me, IF God does exist and IF He did all the things the Bible says He did (Create the world, create us, die on the Cross etc.) and IF He is all the things the Bible says He is, wouldn’t it make sense that He punishes us?

 

Look at it this way.

 

Is a judge who sends a man to the electric chair just because the man killed someone, evil? No. He is just. Does a just judge impose greater punishments on those who aren’t his family? No. He punishes both equally.

 

God has shown us time and time again that He is the same way.

 

When God “orders his specially chosen dogs to tear to pieces the dog who did the biting” He is being just. The people who “bit God’s dogs” did great evils and attacked God’s children. They wanted to punish them for worshipping and serving God. They wanted to conquer them and steal the wealth God gave them or take them as slaves. They attacked God’s kids and, in turn, attacked their Father, God. The “offending dogs” REFUSED to become God’s kids. God protected His family. He gave those “dogs” every chance to get right. But they didn’t.

 

And, His method of destroying them was right. God sees all sin as it is, not as we would LIKE HIM to see it.

 

You may think nothing of spreading lies about someone to get back at them, but to God it is as evil as if you cut them up with a knife. God grants you what you give. You reap what you sow, What goes around comes around, and so on.

 

You speak of how unfair God is yet you are looking at His actions from your position of moral relativism instead of cutting Him some slack.

 

YOU are the one being “intolerant and narrow minded” (as other atheists have said to Christians), not God or myself. I at least gave Atheism a chance; you haven’t given God the time of day.

 

Here is another question, why is it wrong to kill men, women and children by dashing them against the rocks, cutting them up or tearing them apart?

 

Note I AM NOT saying that these actions are okay, I just want you to explain to me why they are wrong.

 

By the way, God DID RAIN DOWN HEART ATTACKS. He struck a couple down when they lied to Him and tried to steal. Their names were Ananias and Sapphira .

 

With Christ,

EGWG

 


MattShizzle
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This is utter bullshit.

This is utter bullshit. First of all, note that many members here are European and Canadian and consider the death penalty barbaric in and of itself. Besides that, the Buybull and hell are the equivalent of a judge giving someone the death penalty for going 1 mile per hour over the speed limit when there are no speed limits posted but thousands of books listing possible speed limits without knowing which if any are true. The Buybull is bullshit and the God character in it makes Adolph Hitler look good by comparison.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


butterbattle
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Holy crap! This thread has

Holy crap! This thread has been going on forever. 

Quote:
Your analogy was well written but does not apply to God.

Why not?

Quote:
You see, you are talking as if God is a man like us. If I decided to blow myself up and take you with me because you are an atheist (as an extremist Muslim would) I am committing murder. Why? Because I am just as guilty as you are.

Guilt?

Quote:
I have no right to choose whether you should live or die because I have committed the same sin (Atheism is transgression of the First and Second Commandments) as you have.

Cough, the first amendment is, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Atheists don't follow any gods so they didn't break the first commandment.

The second amendment is, from New International Version, "You shall not make for yourself in the form of anything in the heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."  

I actually like the second amendment because it's a perfect example of how much of a fucking narcissistic lunatic God is.

But, let's see.

"You shall not make for yourself in the form of anything in the heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

If this implies something for me to worship, then, no, I did not break the second commandment. However, if it simply implies making a replica of anything, then we're all going to hell.

"You shall not bow down to them or worship them."

Nope, I don't do that.

"for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."   

Oh, really?

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does NOT envy, it does NOT boast, it is NOT proud. It is NOT rude, it is NOT self-seeking, it is NOT easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE." 1 John 4:7-8

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16

And I will harden the Pharoah's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharoah and all his army and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. Exodus 14:4

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Quote:
Second, the place in the Bible from which you are drawing is the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, Jesus Christ had not come to die yet.

Um, we know.

So, there's nothing wrong with the New Testament? LMAO. 

Quote:
So, all men stood before God as totally responsible for their actions and without hope for salvation apart from total obedience to the Laws of God.

"Without hope for salvation" they all went to hell.

Quote:
you talk about how unfair God is for punishing people for actions which in your eyes “aren’t that bad”.

-working on Sunday

-purifying your house with mildew the wrong way

-accidentally offering the wrong sacrifice

-eating shellfish

Quote:
My question is this, IF, bear with me, IF God does exist and IF He did all the things the Bible says He did (Create the world, create us, die on the Cross etc.) and IF He is all the things the Bible says He is, wouldn’t it make sense that He punishes us?

IF Pastafarisnism is true, then it would make sense for us to stop eating Alfredo.

IF my body is infested with thetans, then it would make sense for me to pay $200,000 to Scientology to help me remove them. 

The bottom line is, anything will make sense if you start with the assumption that it is true, instead of starting from a neutral position and being as open-minded as possible.

God told the Israelites to kill "everything that breathes," but to keep all the virgins so they can use them as sex slaves. 

The reason you feel that there is something inherently wrong with this scenario is not because God is "beyond your comprehension" or "Satan is tempting you." You don't have to make up 1,000,000 rationalizations for those verses from Deuteronomy. There is a perfectly logical explanation. The Bible was compiled by liars, lunatics and medieval rulers. It's bullshit. 

Quote:
Look at it this way. Is a judge who sends a man to the electric chair just because the man killed someone, evil? No. He is just.

The reason industrial nations have complex court systems with lawyers, juries, and many rights for the accused is because this is just. God is not just. The judge in the courtroom is not God. The judge does not control EVERYTHING because that would be ridiculous.  

A judge that stones anyone he wants and sends people to life imprisonment for weird, mundane things like working on Sunday and cooking a goat in its mother's milk is not just. He's insane. 

Quote:
Does a just judge impose greater punishments on those who aren’t his family? No. He punishes both equally. God has shown us time and time again that He is the same way.
 

When somebody in my family says something negative about me, I shrug it off and love them anyways. I don't cut their thumbs off and smite them down with holy fire. I don't do this because I am rational. 

Quote:
When God “orders his specially chosen dogs to tear to pieces the dog who did the biting” He is being just. The people who “bit God’s dogs” did great evils and attacked God’s children.

Yes, we're all just dogs aren't we. Accept, if we're God's dogs, we're all powerful, and we can feel morally superior raping 32,000 virgins. On the other hand, if we're not God's dogs, we're automatically evil and we're going to be tortured in a pit of lava for all eternity.  

Quote:
They wanted to punish them for worshipping and serving God. They wanted to conquer them and steal the wealth God gave them or take them as slaves. They attacked God’s kids and, in turn, attacked their Father, God.

Can't you back up one even one of your claims? What is this? Am I going to pity the Israelites? The Israelites did all of these things.

"They wanted to punish them for worshipping and serving God."

For worshiping other Gods. Check.

"They wanted to conquer them and steal the wealth God gave them or take them as slaves."

Conquer land. Check.

Steal wealth. Check.

Enslaving virgins. Check.

Quote:
The “offending dogs” REFUSED to become God’s kids.

The people in the Bible never existed. 

Quote:
God protected His family.

The flood was a great way of protecting his family.

Quote:
He gave those “dogs” every chance to get right. But they didn’t.

"Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the Lord, He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you."

Quote:
And, His method of destroying them was right.

Stoning, burning, drowning, stabbing, hanging, torturing, eaten by lions, disease,.........

Quote:
God sees all sin as it is, not as we would LIKE HIM to see it.

There is no evidence that God exists.

If he does exist, he is inconsistent on morality. 

Quote:
You may think nothing of spreading lies about someone to get back at them, but to God it is as evil as if you cut them up with a knife.

Yup, Bible views all sins as the same. Why don't you?

Eating shellfish=global infanticide?

Why don't you? Because it's insane!

Quote:
God grants you what you give. You reap what you sow, What goes around comes around, and so on. You speak of how unfair God is yet you are looking at His actions from your position of moral relativism instead of cutting Him some slack.

I'm looking at God from REALITY. Do you know what REALITY is? 

Cut him some slack? Why don't you cut Allah some slack? Why don't you cut Buddha some slack? Ditto, because they're not real.  

Quote:
YOU are the one being “intolerant and narrow minded” (as other atheists have said to Christians), not God or myself. I at least gave Atheism a chance;

More hypocrisy. Many of us used to be Christians.

I personally went to many different churches looking for the truth.

Quote:
Here is another question, why is it wrong to kill men, women and children by dashing them against the rocks, cutting them up or tearing them apart? Note I AM NOT saying that these actions are okay, I just want you to explain to me why they are wrong.

Oh no, not this again. 

First of all, God did all of these things. 

And, the answer would be I don't know. Well, we have some guesses, but we can't say for sure yet. The need for it might have evolved from society.

Secularism doesn't have a straight answer to this question because secularism is honest. When we haven't found the answer to something yet, we don't invent imaginary bearded men in the sky to make ourselves more comfortable.

All we need to know is that morality is inherent within us because it's certainly not in any religion.

Quote:
By the way, God DID RAIN DOWN HEART ATTACKS. He struck a couple down when they lied to Him and tried to steal. Their names were Ananias and Sapphira . With Christ, EGWG

Ah, God causes heart attacks. This is truly a perfect conclusion to your rant.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


EGWG
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I am working to respond to

I am working to respond to your post, but today I have a ton of things to do.

 

For now, I would like you to give me the list of Bible verses which you mentioned above.

 

You said God told the Israelites to kill all but the virgins so as to make them sex slaves. Where did this happen in the Bible?

 

Show me please so that I might examine them and look deeper into this topic.

 

With Christ,

EGWG

 

P.S. One thing, when I said "YOU are the one being “intolerant and narrow minded” (as other atheists have said to Christians), not God or myself. I at least gave Atheism a chance" I was not doing this to point a finger at you. Nor was I referring to your attendance at a church.

 

When I say you are not giving God a chance, I am talking about how you seem to refuse to look at what I'm saying. I want you to provide me evidence as to why you think God does not exist and why He should not be worshipped.

 

This is one of those DEEP topics found in the Bible. It brings up questions, questions and more questons. This topic will have to go WWWWWWAAAAYYYYYY back to the beginning.

 

Are you willing to go there?

 

Am I?

 

This is what we must answer.

 

I want our discussion from here on out to be done with true friendship and kindness. We are not enemies, you and I. I don't HATE atheists. So, do you wish to call a truce?

 

I apologize for how I might have come across in my earlier post. I was not trying to be judgmental or holier-than-thou.


butterbattle
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 EGWG wrote:When I say you

 

EGWG wrote:
When I say you are not giving God a chance, I am talking about how you seem to refuse to look at what I'm saying.
 

I pretty much quoted your entire post. What have you stated that I refused look at? 

EGWG wrote:
Are you willing to go there?

Go where? Ponder the question of the existence of the Christian God?

Bleh, save this appeal for the emotionally vulnerable.  

EGWG wrote:
You said God told the Israelites to kill all but the virgins so as to make them sex slaves. Where did this happen in the Bible?

Sure, here you go.

"Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army - the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds - who returned from the battle."

"Have you allowed the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." Numbers 31:15-18

EGWG wrote:
I want you to provide me evidence as to why you think God does not exist and why He should not be worshipped

Reason 1) Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. -Marcus Aurelius 

Reason 2) "Love is patient, love is kind. It does NOT envy, it does NOT boast, it is NOT proud. It is NOT rude, it is NOT self-seeking, it is NOT easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." 1 Corinthians 13:4-5

 

"Beloved, let us LOVE one another: for love is of God; and every one who loves is born of God, and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is LOVE." 1 John 4:7-8

"You shall not make for yourself in the form of anything in the heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:4-6 

Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Leviticus 24:16

And I will harden the Pharoah's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharoah and all his army and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. Exodus 14:4

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Reason 3: Genesis states that God made two great lights. One for the day, one for the night. This is because the writers of the Bible didn't know that the moon doesn't produce light, but reflects the light of the sun.

Reason 4: One the third day, God produced vegetation. Then, on the sixth day, he made Adam and Eve. However, Genesis then contradicts itself and says that God made Adam before there were any "shrubs" or "plant." Then, it emphasizes that God made Adam first, and when Adam couldn't find a suitable helper, God put him into a deep sleep and took one of his ribs to make Even. But, in 27, it already implied that God made Adam and Eve at the same time.

Reason 5: God curses the snake by taking away its legs. Ha, a snake with long legs would never be able to survive. The snake as a species is very well adapted to its environment partly because of the fact that it crawls on its belly. This is obviously a product of evolution.

Reason 6: "But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"

What is this? Self-imposed amnesia? Hide and seek? The omnipotent, omniscient Creator of the universe didn't know that Adam would eat the fruit? He doesn't even know where Adam is hiding?

Reason 7: Genesis is an internally inconsistent argument. God created Adam and Eve, whom didn't know the difference between right and wrong. If they don't know the difference between right and wrong, then why would eating the fruit be the "wrong" thing to do? God is punishing them for not having something that God didn't give them in the first place. 

Reason 8: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Adam and Even did NOT die. God lied.

Reason 9: Snakes can't talk.

Reason 10: God inflicts all women with terrible pain during child birth because Eve ate a piece of fruit.

Reason 11: "Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" Again, if God already knows the answer, then why is He asking the question? If He doesn't know the answer, then he's not all-knowing.

Reason 12: It's impossible to fit all the animals on the ark.

Reason 13: An animal is an animal. Why are some of them are "unclean?" What does this mean?

Reason 14: The amount of water that it would take to cover the entire Earth up to the highest mountain is several times the amount of water that even exists on Earth. Mixing freshwater and saltwater for that long would have killed most species of fish. etc.

Reason 15: The first humans would have had to marry their brothers, sisters, parents, uncles, cousins. Realistically, a gene pool of this size can't possibly survive.

Reason 16: A rainbow is a reminder of the covenant. God makes rainbows.

Reason 17: You cannot build a brick tower to heaven.

Reason 18: The writers invented a fable to explain why there are people all over the Earth that speak different languages. God felt threatened by the people in Shinar, so he confused their language and scattered them over the Earth.

Shall I continue? 

EGWG wrote:
I at least gave Atheism a chance

Sure.

EGWG wrote:
I was not doing this to point a finger at you.
  

 

Of course not, you were just calling me intolerant and narrow-minded because I don't follow your imaginary friend. 

EGWG wrote:
So, do you wish to call a truce?

A truce? What does this mean? That we're going to stop debating? Obviously not. Does this mean that we're going to respect each other? 

I will try to control my language, but I would still prefer to respect people after they have proven that they deserve my respect.  

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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You must be kidding

s0m3b0dy wrote:

It truly saddens my heart to see all of these brilliant but clouded minds go to waste.

 

 

"Mind gone to waste"???...Are you kidding me??!!... You are the Theist, not us.

 

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...Only 15..Hmmm

OMG !!!  ...As a 15 year old, this person understands God's work !!!!!.  He/she wrote

"In order for to you to understand God's work first you must believe...."

Again I ask.  Who's mind has gone to waste?  

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None

He killed none because he doesn't exist? Trick question Sapient?

I am gender assigning god to keep it within everyone's mental boundaries.

Late 50's

Heavy set, great chest

On a cloud

Toga

Beard

Zeus lightning bolt

That him?

Who would want to finish what they have said with the same thing everytime?


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Why God Killed 2,270,365+ people?

 The Simple reason why God killed 2,270,365+ is that they were dumb Atheists thats why! 

 

For eg. I am a gardener I am pruning my garden, sometimes I will pluck away every moth eaten leaf or if necessary uproot an infected plant for the good of the garden, as a whole.

 

So God, just wiped out people who were corrupted and were corrupting others. He thought it is best to wipe out certain clan of people, because they were very corrupted.

 

When God created everything it was perfect, it was Good Gen 1:13 tells us all that He created was Good! And He gave man the free will to choose life and death. Man choose death.  He rebelled against God! Choose to side with the rebel leader Lucifer (Satan, the fallen Angel) Sin came into this world, Sin is nothing but corruption, Murder, human sacrifice, sexual immorality, greed, hatred, selfishness, Jealousy, mutilating own self with drugs, blood sports, theft, lying, dishonesty, backbiting, cunningness, pride and ect…. All these were practiced by men. (Do you expect God to appreciate that?)

 

If I was God, I would have wiped the whole human race for Good, long before, I can’t tolerate to see my creation decay in sin. But God is longsuffering…. Even though man was corrupted, even thou he denied God, and even thou man is worthy to be terminated as a whole, His heart aced within Himself, He waited for a man to come to Him, (Not all are going to come) But perhaps someone might come to Him. Someone from this corrupted human race might seek Him,

And yes some did seek God, And that someone is so precious in His sight! He wants that precious jewel! that someone who seeks Him against all odds and human reasoning. Therefore God swore to Himself that He would do anything redeem it.

 

Redeem it from the Fallen Angel Lucifer! (Heaven is at war! Still at war!) Man has fallen into the hands of Lucifer and His Angels. Even though God is all powerful, He is righteous, He will just come and bash satan and to redeem man!

because of His own righteousness, and because of His goodness, He has not destroyed Satan yet! But to redeem man God will do anything! He came down to the level of contesting with the devil.

 

The devil said, come down as man, I challenge you!  Can you withstand my sin? My temptations? Come down God let have a fair game! This Good God, came down as man (Jesus), suffered poverty, temptations, trails, shame, reproach and pain. Ultimately gave His own life, to redeem man. For every mans sin! For his every corruption, He took the punishment upon himself. And He redeemed him.

 

Therefore, who is precious in His sight? Those who seek Him. As far as those who do not seek Him or want Him or curse Him, in the eyes of God, they are as good as dead! Even if thou they are alive it means nothing to Him. A day will come, their own sins will judge them! Their own wickedness will raise up and condemn them!

God is life, He will depart from them…. When life departs, death enters! Not bodily death,  I am speaking about totally separation from God, eternally….. Such a soul is Lost!

 

 

God is Good and whatever He does is Good! Psalms 119:68


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Yea, this makes perfect

Yea, this makes perfect sense.  God created us the way we are, and the way we are is not good enough for God.  So God obviously need to keep killing us until we start acting differently.  If you planted a field a beans, and then found out that you didn't like bean wouldn't you reap horrid vengeance on those beans.  It only logical! 


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GodisGood wrote: The Simple

GodisGood wrote:

 The Simple reason why God killed 2,270,365+ is that they were dumb Atheists thats why!

Check your Bible myths. Most were either pagans or disobedient Jews.

  

GodisGood wrote:

So God, just wiped out people who were corrupted and were corrupting others. He thought it is best to wipe out certain clan of people, because they were very corrupted.

Yeah even babies that couldn't speak or walk were corrupt and evil.

GodisGood wrote:
 

When God created everything it was perfect, it was Good Gen 1:13 tells us all that He created was Good!

If all was so perfect how did the snake or if you think Satan was the snake, Satan  manage to be less than perfect?

GodisGood wrote:

And He gave man the free will to choose life and death. Man choose death.  He rebelled against God! Choose to side with the rebel leader Lucifer (Satan, the fallen Angel) Sin came into this world, Sin is nothing but corruption, Murder, human sacrifice, sexual immorality, greed, hatred, selfishness, Jealousy, mutilating own self with drugs, blood sports, theft, lying, dishonesty, backbiting, cunningness, pride and ect…. All these were practiced by men. (Do you expect God to appreciate that?)

Apparently, as God boasts in Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

GodisGood wrote:
 

If I was God, I would have wiped the whole human race for Good, long before,

Good thing god is a myth and you aren't the incorporation of the myth in the real world.

GodisGood wrote:

And yes some did seek God, And that someone is so precious in His sight! He wants that precious jewel! that someone who seeks Him against all odds and human reasoning. Therefore God swore to Himself that He would do anything redeem it.

Guess the god can violate his own commandments by swearing.

GodisGood wrote:
 

Redeem it from the Fallen Angel Lucifer! (Heaven is at war! Still at war!)

Exactly where is this war in heaven in your biblical mythology? Not the future war in Revelation, but rather the supposed war when Lucifer and his angels went against the warmonger god Yahweh and were cast from heaven?

GodisGood wrote:

because of His own righteousness, and because of His goodness, He has not destroyed Satan yet!

Perhaps he still needs his prosecutor angel.

GodisGood wrote:
 

The devil said, come down as man, I challenge you!  Can you withstand my sin? My temptations? Come down God let have a fair game! This Good God, came down as man (Jesus), suffered poverty, temptations, trails, shame, reproach and pain. Ultimately gave His own life, to redeem man. For every mans sin! For his every corruption, He took the punishment upon himself. And He redeemed him.

And it's on to NT myths. Did you ever wonder if Satan was so cunning and tricky why he would risk immediate eradication by directly confronting a part of the god? This god could instantly remove Satan from reality as if he never existed and so he's playing games with part of him/her/it?

GodisGood wrote:
 

Therefore, who is precious in His sight? Those who seek Him. As far as those who do not seek Him or want Him or curse Him, in the eyes of God, they are as good as dead! Even if thou they are alive it means nothing to Him. A day will come, their own sins will judge them! Their own wickedness will raise up and condemn them!

But what if Thor or Zeus is the real god. Or even worse, the Muslim version Allah. You're screwed then.

GodisGood wrote:

God is life, He will depart from them…. When life departs, death enters! Not bodily death,  I am speaking about totally separation from God, eternally….. Such a soul is Lost! 

Death returns a person to the state from whence they came, not existing. Can you produce a photo of this soul thing?

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I don't see the Great Flood

I don't see the Great Flood in there. Am I just missing it?


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So if your mom died, your

So if your mom died, your sister, your brother, your best friend, that'd be okay?

 


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Whoeva wrote:I don't see the

Whoeva wrote:

I don't see the Great Flood in there. Am I just missing it?

I don't remember the bible mentioning how many people were killed in the flood.  I think most of the omitted murders are because we don't know how many people theists believe died.

 

edit:

Quote:
It's impossible to say for sure, but plenty. How many did God drown in the flood or burn to death in Sodom and Gomorrah? How many first-born Egyptians did he kill? There's just no way to count them all. This list doesn't include those figures.

 

 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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Whoeva wrote:So if your mom

Whoeva wrote:

So if your mom died, your sister, your brother, your best friend, that'd be okay?

 

Since humans live only so long and death is part of life it is the way it is. 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I recall posting in here

I recall posting in here too, before my net left me months ago. I'm not going to look through all the posts, it's all stuff I've seen before. I'll add something else to the topic though.

Everyone that has ever died was killed by god, if god exists. That puts the numbers in the billions. Even if satan killed people, god created satan. God knew what satan would do. God bears responsibility for his kills and every death that resulted from his creation.

God is evil.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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what's the biblical error claimed?

Fascinating thread, but I have yet to see any assertion of an error in the Bible in it.

God told the Prophet Isaiah, I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil:  I the LORD do all these things.  Isaiah 45:7  So God created death as much as He created life.  But the parties responsible for human death are Adam and Eve.  God had meant us to be immortal (which, for the Saved, in a sense we are), but Adam and Eve screwed it up at least for our existence on Earth:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  Genesis 2:17

 

Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.


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RespectfulButBelieving

RespectfulButBelieving wrote:

 

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.  Genesis 2:17

 

Yet they seemed to have lived a few years past that day didn't they?.  "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years and he died." Genesis 5:5

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Hambydammit wrote:So... You

Hambydammit wrote:
So... You are obviously opposed to the death sentence in any form... ever.
I can't speak for the poster, but Jesus said, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone.

Quote:
You are also opposed to fertility clinics because they "kill babies" all the time.
Yes.

Quote:
You are also opposed to the IUD as a method of birth control, as it is not 100% effective in preventing pregnancy, but it virtually always causes a miscarriage when fertilization occurs.
Yes.

Quote:
You believe that we should never defend ourselves with lethal force if our house, country, etc... is invaded.
Not if we're invaded by babies.  The Bible tells us not to murder, it doesn't say we cannot defend ourselves.  Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, but, after that, we're fresh out of cheeks to turn.

Quote:
You believe that if someone tries to kill you, you can protect yourself, but that you cannot, under any circumstances, kill the person who is trying to kill you.
Same answer as above.

Quote:
It follows that as a good Christian who believes that murder is always wrong, you believe that America, as a Christian Nation, should destroy all of its guns and weapons, for if we used them, we would be sinning.
You seem very good at putting words in other people's mouths.

Quote:
Ok, enough about the things you obviously believe, since all of these beliefs are naturally deduced from your position on abortion.
If by "naturally," you mean "by a moron only," then yes.

Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.


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there are days, and then there are days

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Yet they seemed to have lived a few years past that day didn't they?.  "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years and he died." Genesis 5:5
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

Once an athiest, now a believer, and always ready to debate issues respectfully.


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   "The people of Samaria

And speaking of spiritually motivated carnage:  

   "The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God.

   They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

   their pregnant women ripped open."   Hosea 13:16

 

 

Gee, who wouldn't worship a god who behaves like that ?      

"Uh, yeah God..sorry to make you angry,....of course I love  you the most....now put the knife down, please..."  

   


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D:

totsadoodles wrote:
OreosTheTrombone wrote:

One: When I ask Christians why there is evil in this world, most reply "Because God gave us Free Will", but they also believe God has set plan and is all-knowing, if he is all knowing then he knows what all our choices are (and they are set for us) then how do we really have free will?

I do believe that there is evil exists because of free will, but I don't think that God has a "plan" that we are forced to follow. God can still allow free will and be all-knowing. We still have a choice, even if God already knows what choice we will make.

 

Umm...evil according to what definition? You are assuming there is such a thing as a moral absolute, when history and logic would firmly disagree with that concept. Look at how many things even in the last 100 years have changed from unacceptable to accepted, or accepted to unacceptable. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it "wrong" or "evil" or "bad", it just means you disagree with it. You might share opinions with others, but that still doesn't make it a "good" or "bad", "holy" or "evil", or whatever you want to call it.

 

It is impossible to lay judgement and try and divide the world into two sides, and then expect it to mesh with other people's personal values.

Theism is why we can't have nice things.


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RespectfulButBelieving

RespectfulButBelieving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:
Yet they seemed to have lived a few years past that day didn't they?.  "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years and he died." Genesis 5:5
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

So he needs to buy a Seiko then he'd know what time it was.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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The Universe....

"And we have answered the one about "how did the universe get here?" many times on here already. Why couldn't it always have been here? If everything that exists has to have been created, what created God? If God could have always been here, so could the universe."

 

I know this post is old, but I am new here, so what the heck.

I have a slight problem with the statement quoted above.  Didn't Hubble prove  that the universe indeed had a beginning? 

Doesn't the theory that the universe has always been here contradict empirical science? since Hubble's astronomical observations preclude an eternal universe. We now know beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe began at some point in the finite past.

Knowing this, logic now requires that you identify the uncontrolled mechanism by which the universe could have been initiated, designed, created and/or developed by itself. OR intellectual honesty requires the necessity of a "cause" or creator.

As for God's eternal existence - God exists outside of space and time - he is not bound by scientific laws.  God is not a "scientific" being - he is a supernatural being, and the supernatural cannot be observed scientifically.  This is a dilemma for some who do not believe the supernatural exists.  God, not bound by scientific laws, but being the creator of them, can indeed exist infinitely. 

That said, your question can be answered about how God, a supernatural being, not a 'thing', could have always been here, but the unviverse, as proven by Hubble, has not been here infinetly and must have a "cause" or origin of some sort. 

 

Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow.


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Journey247 wrote:"And we

Journey247 wrote:

"And we have answered the one about "how did the universe get here?" many times on here already. Why couldn't it always have been here? If everything that exists has to have been created, what created God? If God could have always been here, so could the universe."

 

I know this post is old, but I am new here, so what the heck.

I have a slight problem with the statement quoted above.  Didn't Hubble prove  that the universe indeed had a beginning? 

Doesn't the theory that the universe has always been here contradict empirical science? since Hubble's astronomical observations preclude an eternal universe. We now know beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe began at some point in the finite past.

Knowing this, logic now requires that you identify the uncontrolled mechanism by which the universe could have been initiated, designed, created and/or developed by itself. OR intellectual honesty requires the necessity of a "cause" or creator.

As for God's eternal existence - God exists outside of space and time - he is not bound by scientific laws.  God is not a "scientific" being - he is a supernatural being, and the supernatural cannot be observed scientifically.  This is a dilemma for some who do not believe the supernatural exists.  God, not bound by scientific laws, but being the creator of them, can indeed exist infinitely. 

That said, your question can be answered about how God, a supernatural being, not a 'thing', could have always been here, but the unviverse, as proven by Hubble, has not been here infinetly and must have a "cause" or origin of some sort. 

 

Welcome to the forum.  Wow, looks like new members are being treated to huge avatars...

 

Whether or not the universe has a beginning according to the big bang theory really depends on how you define beginning.  The big bang postulates a change from a small hot universe (too hot to even support matter) to the expanding and cooling universe as we know it now.  Nowhere does this imply a literal beginning to physical existence.

We have no means of observing before a certain point in the history of our current universe, so the logical conclusion is that we simply don't know.  "I don't know" is an acceptable stance, as it leaves us open to learning, unlike clinging to a presupposition such as a god.

btw, you may want to take a few minutes to look up what logic actually is.  Along with "random" and "theory", "logic" is one of the most misused words.

 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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Welcome to the forums.You

Welcome to the forums.

You might want to look at the size requirements for your avatar as it appears you have exceeded the suggested size to the point it covers that which you post.

 

Journey247 wrote:

 

As for God's eternal existence - God exists outside of space and time - he is not bound by scientific laws.  God is not a "scientific" being - he is a supernatural being, and the supernatural cannot be observed scientifically.  This is a dilemma for some who do not believe the supernatural exists.  God, not bound by scientific laws, but being the creator of them, can indeed exist infinitely.

Here is the age old problem. If a god exists outside of space and time how can you perceive of it's existence. If you can perceive of it's existence then he interacts with reality and can be observed. I see no dilemma here, if something can exist outside reality and you perceive it then you can show by the scientific method how you perceive. If you can't do this, perhaps you have errored in your rush to describe that which you lack knowledge. It may be that what you think is "milk" or a "cow" is neither.

Journey247 wrote:

That said, your question can be answered about how God, a supernatural being, not a 'thing', could have always been here, but the unviverse, as proven by Hubble, has not been here infinetly and must have a "cause" or origin of some sort.  

You can claim a god exists but that answers nothing but that you so believe without a shred of evidence. Our existence alone does not indicate anything about that which one cannot perceive but only that we exist.

As to what existed prior to our Universe no one knows hence no valid claim can be made.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Sorry about the avatar size,

Sorry about the avatar size, without my glasses that fine print went unnoticed.  Hopefully it is corrected.

 

I am well aware of the meaning of the word logic - and agree that there is a tendency to misuse/misunderstand it.

Maybe a better term for me to have used would be deductive reasoning.

I don't care to argue whether the "big bang" or any other theory is the correct definition of the beginning....just that there is, without a doubt, a beginning.

Admittedly, I DON'T claim to know HOW the universe came to be, or when it began - but through deductive reasoning, with the information available, I am inclined to come to the presupposition that there very well may be a creator.  I disagree that to presuppose God to be that creator closes the mind to learning.  Why would it?

It is a presupposition to declare that Christians cling to God and don't want to learn about the universe they live in.  It may be true of some, but not all. 

It is also a presupposition that there is no creator.  Obviously we cannot scientifically know this without a doubt, one way or another.

I view Science as a tool used to gain knowledge about the natural, observable world.  I don't believe it's use is not limited to only those who don't believe in a creator, but by all who want to know about the world around them, who possess the knowledge and skill needed to correctly use that tool effectively. Those using science to gain knowledge have a responsibility to convey that knowledge in an honest and truthful manner, no matter what their presuppositions are.  Christians are not the only people who have presuppositions, afterall.

Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow.


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Thanks for the

Thanks for the welcome.

 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote: "if something can exist outside reality and you perceive it then you can show by the scientific method how you perceive."

If I perceive something, then it does not exist outside of reality.  We could go on infinitely about the philosophical, metaphysical and epistemological factors that determine what is "real" - but I won't, as the views about reality are as varied as the person perceiving it.  Science can be used to study what is observable in the natural world by the senses.  It cannot be used to study the spiritual/supernatural world...not yet.  There is nothing we can point to, name and say that it will exist forever.  Does this mean that the supernatural does not exist?  No.  It means that something besides the scientific method must be used to describe it.  It does not mean that it is something besides what I think, "the milk or the cow" as you say - but the milk and the cow have different methods used to describe them.

 

 pauljohntheskeptic wrote:"You can claim a god exists but that answers nothing but that you so believe without a shred of evidence. Our existence alone does not indicate anything about that which one cannot perceive but only that we exist "

Once again, the reality is as varied as the person perceiving it.  My spiritual reality IS the evidence I believe in.

 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote: "As to what existed prior to our Universe no one knows hence no valid claim can be made."

And none has been offered.

 

 

Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow.


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Journey247 wrote:I don't

Journey247 wrote:

I don't care to argue whether the "big bang" or any other theory is the correct definition of the beginning....just that there is, without a doubt, a beginning.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Quote:
It is also a presupposition that there is no creator.  Obviously we cannot scientifically know this without a doubt, one way or another.
My position on god, gods, and\or mythological deities is simple non belief.  I do not believe in its\their existence or its\their non-existence.  I have no reason to so much as suspect that one or more of them are real.  I carry no burden of proof.

Quote:
It is a presupposition to declare that Christians cling to God and don't want to learn about the universe they live in.  It may be true of some, but not all.
  Not really, it's been observed in much of history that religions stifled free though and scientific progress, and I'm not just talking about Christianity, as there are many religions who think their god is just as real as Christians think their god is.  If you are an exception, good for you.

 

Edit:  Oops sorry, I just realized that this is totally the wrong place for this discussion.

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


pauljohntheskeptic
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Journey247 wrote:Thanks for

Journey247 wrote:

Thanks for the welcome.

 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote: "if something can exist outside reality and you perceive it then you can show by the scientific method how you perceive."

If I perceive something, then it does not exist outside of reality.  We could go on infinitely about the philosophical, metaphysical and epistemological factors that determine what is "real" - but I won't, as the views about reality are as varied as the person perceiving it.  Science can be used to study what is observable in the natural world by the senses.  It cannot be used to study the spiritual/supernatural world...not yet.  There is nothing we can point to, name and say that it will exist forever.  Does this mean that the supernatural does not exist?  No.  It means that something besides the scientific method must be used to describe it.  It does not mean that it is something besides what I think, "the milk or the cow" as you say - but the milk and the cow have different methods used to describe them.

 

 pauljohntheskeptic wrote:"You can claim a god exists but that answers nothing but that you so believe without a shred of evidence. Our existence alone does not indicate anything about that which one cannot perceive but only that we exist "

Once again, the reality is as varied as the person perceiving it.  My spiritual reality IS the evidence I believe in.

 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote: "As to what existed prior to our Universe no one knows hence no valid claim can be made."

And none has been offered. 

There are several recent threads dealing with this topic that you might enjoy:

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17393

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17409

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17361

Or search the site using search this site on the left edge of your screen for that which interests you the most.

Any of them are a more appropriate place then this thread which originally was about God's tally of dead vs. Satan.

It's clear we have opposing positions on the supernatural and a discussion regarding it  is best done elsewhere.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Abortion is not murder. Yes

Abortion is not murder. Yes this is the one life we get, but it is the choice of the mother whether or not she wants to spend her life tending to a child that was the product of rape, for example. Furthermore, human embryos have a tail that measures about one-sixth of the size of the embryo itself. Is this the example you wish to give of god's perfect creation? Is that him as the alpha?

Your examples of the "finely tuned universe" as proof of god have all been refuted  before, there's no need to do it again. Although I would point out that this perfect nature on earth that you describe is mostly inhospitable to man. Does that sound like a planet created especially for us? And a lot of us do believe the Big Bang is a solid theory for the expansion of the universe, we just don't see fit to add unnecessary factors like god.

As far as the god of kindness and love as compared to other gods for which you cite examples of human sacrifice, what about people like Matthew Shephard or Dr. John Britton and his assistant James Barrett who were killed in the name of your god?

Are you seriously going to start a conversation about contradictions in philosophy? Christians practically invented that.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure it's humans that give life to our children. We create them, nurse them, deliver them, and raise them. Not god. Also, Adam and Eve never existed, just want to put that out there. The first humans were from the African savannah, not Mesopotamia. 

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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Oh, and one more thing - noor wrote: So if I say that the

Actually, that is circular reasoning. If the tooth fairy imprisons other fairys, its assumed that for the imprisoned fairys to exist (in this statement), then its implied that the tooth fairy exists to imprison them. Therefor, with no tooth fairy, none would be imprisoned, and with none to be imprisoned, there would be no tooth fairy. This only applies with THAT STATEMENT.

Second, I wish to bring some of these bible thumpers down.

Take into consideration how many religions the world contains. Then, assuming ONE of them is correct, what the chances are that you, by choosing one, will pick the one tre one? Now, assume atheism is one of those "religions" or belief systems, that would only slightly lower your chances of being right. With that said, one could easily verify that there is NO poissible way to KNOW that youve chosen the right religion without knowing/experiencing/testing ALL the others.

Its common knowledge that all different religions contradict one another. Every religion says their beliefs are correct and all others are false. Then you can break them down even more and say, within every religion there are sub-religions that are derived from different interpretations of that said religon, thus accumulating a base of followers for that particular agreement. FOr example, with christanity, there are several different sub-religions based upon the Christ following, such as Catholics, Penticostle, Baptists, Church of Christ, Non-demoninational, etc... the list goes on. Alright, now all of these different categorys of the said religion disagree with one another. Baptist accept live bands in their worship ceremonies and Curch of Christ are against it. Some speak in tongues, dance, scream/hollar, handle serpents (search Salvation On Sand Mountain). The people who follow each of these only populate the following based on its relevance to their own beliefs. Someone who likes live bands might attent a Baptist or non-denominational church for this reason, and for the same, one might attent a Church of Christ if they were against a live band playing in church. There is no gray area with the christian god, either you are doing something right, or you are doing something wrong. They cant both be right.

People only follow a certain religion/sub-religion based on its relativity to their own lives. For example, I live in the southern bible belt of the US. People here are die-hard christanity followers. Almost everyone claims to believe in God. However, Islam is unheard of in these parts because, based on location and history, people raised here are only taught christanity. The same could be said about a follower of Islam. They are not exposed to christanity, so naturally, they disagree/do not follow it. Keep in mind, they both cant be right.

Next I address this christian god, only because its the only one people here ever care to debate over, so "god" here on-out is referring to the christian god. I assume this forum was created by an american, and americans are the majority of the posters.....What is a sin? Example: Murder. Most everyone has the capability of murder. Keeping it simple, the only way to not commit this sin is to desire and decide that you are not going to murder. If you were to, having the ability to make this decision, to go against the current and murder someone, you will have committed a sin, yes? So, with this example, sin is the result of an ability, a desire, and a decision. God, being ALL powerful, has it in his will to do whatever he chooses. IF, he is then ALL powerful, has the ability to prevent murder. He does not do this, therefor the desire for him to prevent it is not there, and the decision is made to allow it. This is, in fact, a sin. God, daily, breaks his own rules. If god, however, does not have the power to alter human actions, thus giving them free will, then he is IN FACT, not ALL powerful. This makes his desire and decision irrelevant. If this is so, then i wouldnt catch myself trying to worship such a weak entity.

The historical documentation of the known worlds religons is vast. We know of the Greek mythological gods for example. I do not know anyone who still follows this religion, for our technology has changed the populations view of our world by leaps and bounds. As mentioned before, we understand that the earth is a sphere, not a circular disk, as once thought. We know that the planets revolve around the sun, and the earth is NOT the center of our universe, nor does anything other than our moon revolve around it (aside from satellites).

This information was not always prevelant. Ever heard of Galileo Galilei? He invented the telescope, was responsible for discovering the crators on the moon and that it wasnt a perfect sphere, the founder of modern science and physics, jupiters moons, venuses phases, and even improvements on the compass. Yeah, youve heard of him. Were you aware the, in the middle 1600s the catholic church decaired him a heritic because his techings directly conflicted with the bible? They sentenced him to prison when he was 69 years old, but because of his age, he was instead put under house arrest. They confiscate all of his scientific equipment, writings, anything and everything he had to continue his research. He shortly became blind before he died and wrote of how all that he had loved and desired was now confined within his mind. Question: Anyone ever go to church and hear them speak agianst any of his teaching? Denying a single one? No. The church CHANGED their teachings to better fit their society. They bullied a brilliant scientist into submission with their "holy bullshit fear mongering" as i call it. He was an example of the churches power over people. Tell me, how can one change absolute truth, as the bible likes to claim itself to be? Simple, you cannot. Thats because religions are bullshit. Ways to contol and dumb down people so they dont think for themselves. People who think are hard to control. This country was founded on that very fact.

You guys can choose to believe whatever you want, im taking my chances. If there truely is an almighty god who choses not to reveal himself to the masses, for whatever reason he has, i think my best bet, though it may be equally as likely to get me into trouble after death, is to just live as a good person. Do noone wrong, try to be good to your fellow man, to make it a point to learn as much as you can, to experience as much as this world/life has to offer. I find this much more difficult to do with religious worries, which is a whole different topic i would be happy to address.

To end, i leave a question. If God is all powerful and can do anything, can he create a mountain so big that even he is unable to move it?....or are humans just "too dumb" to understand these things like the bible tries to tell you haha.

There are many things unknow to us now, but also things known now that were far unknown in the past. The more you know... =)

 


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the reason

The reason is, we are interested in science, and i think that chistianity is a tad larger influence on our culture than your silly monster argument. and as for us being goths, i  havnt seen one goth like person arguing this point on here, i am far from a hate everything loser, i love the world, you are crazy.


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the reason

The reason is, we are interested in science, and i think that chistianity is a tad larger influence on our culture than your silly monster argument. and as for us being goths, i  havnt seen one goth like person arguing this point on here, i am far from a hate everything loser, i love the world, you are crazy.


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Depends on the theist, many

Depends on the theist, many Christians believed it to be an honor to die for their faith. They knew why they were dying and they knew who they were dying for. You guys think we believers are fools who have lost hope and clinging to the last thread of a future we can find. Those who truly believe have their proof, they have seen the work of their father, in the flesh, and in the spirit, and to those, these conversations are pitiful reminders of our wasted time resisting the true freedom that has been offered. I have no power to convince anybody, you will have to see the truth with your own eyes or your own spirit. I assure you, none who have truly come to him have been disappointed.      


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And yet, Ken you are unable

And yet, Ken you are unable to relate this proof in any way that is meaningful to others.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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You cannot argue that there

You cannot argue that there is no GOD because bad things happen, many find happiness after the loss of certain  things. Suppose every human lived in a ten-thousand sq foot home and a new car every year. One day he is forced to leave and live in card board box. People are outraged at the suffering this man must endure, but tells these people to leave him alone, he has discovered his freedom. Now I'm not camparing this to harming a child, but suffering can be the instrument of growth and change. This world is already fallen and evil is allowed to continue on the earth, so the question is where is not where is GOD, but why are we still here?  If you believe anyone ever gets away such things, then I don't believe you understand the nature of GOD, these people will suffer on this earth and more importantly, be judged.


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Ken1186 wrote:Depends on the

Ken1186 wrote:

Depends on the theist, many Christians believed it to be an honor to die for their faith. They knew why they were dying and they knew who they were dying for. You guys think we believers are fools who have lost hope and clinging to the last thread of a future we can find. Those who truly believe have their proof, they have seen the work of their father, in the flesh, and in the spirit, and to those, these conversations are pitiful reminders of our wasted time resisting the true freedom that has been offered. I have no power to convince anybody, you will have to see the truth with your own eyes or your own spirit. I assure you, none who have truly come to him have been disappointed.      

Which is it? Proof or faith? Would you all please get that settled amongst yourselves?


 

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Ken1186 wrote:Depends on the

Ken1186 wrote:

Depends on the theist, many Christians believed it to be an honor to die for their faith. They knew why they were dying and they knew who they were dying for. You guys think we believers are fools who have lost hope and clinging to the last thread of a future we can find. Those who truly believe have their proof, they have seen the work of their father, in the flesh, and in the spirit, and to those, these conversations are pitiful reminders of our wasted time resisting the true freedom that has been offered. I have no power to convince anybody, you will have to see the truth with your own eyes or your own spirit. I assure you, none who have truly come to him have been disappointed.      

Yes, the 9/11 hijackers felt honored to die for Allah. So too did the Crusaders dying to save the Holy land from infidel Muslims. Those that were doing so in pursuit of God's will as propagated to them by the popes. Others did so in pursuit of booty and riches, probably more honorable, at least they got something out of the deal.

I think people who cast away their life for a god that is not real are deluded, not fools. They do perform foolish acts however. I'm aware of what proof you think you have, but it doesn't hold up in the harsh light of reality. Unless you have something I've never seen or heard about, if so lay it on the lab table.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Hahahah. You are

Hahahah. You are hillarious.

If anybody in here knew that actually religious text have to do with : i) astrology and astronomy, ii) customs of the races who wrote each textbook, this thread would not even exist.

It's like fighting over Star Wars, or any other book, script, scenario or movie.

The sad thing is that I see other atheists such as myself, getting consumed, trying to explain to all kinds of theists that religious faith equals insanity ( yes it does as there is a strong positive correlation between psychoses, neuroses and religious belief ).

I can feel your anguish and hatred my brothers, but let them believe whatever they are injected with. I have many times tried to open their eyes to the truth, or actually the lack of absolute truth, the relativity that defines the truth for us (Homo Sapiens). You know and I know; they simply believe because they dare not know. They dare not accept entropy or inertia. They make distinctions between body and mind. Just bring up your families away from this insanity and keep your distance. 

And to you believers, this only I have to say : We know you want the world destroyed, ripped off us Men and our inadequacy. You think that the day that you roll the world in blood you will be saved. But who will save the sane?

 

 

 


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 God is not killing

 God is not killing anyone.. he is taking back his creatures to Him. It's so simple. If anyone understands it :p 

peace out~ 

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God killed all those people

God killed all those people because they violated His laws.  They violated His laws because they chose to.  And they chose to because they were tempted by Satan.  Therefore, Satan had a hand in their death but those people are ultimately responsible for their choices.


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Free will and TV Preachers

Two responses:

1. It is incorrect to think that God's knowledge of the future means he CONTROLS every future choice. As CS Lewis explained through Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters- God doesn't see the future as we do, waiting for it to arrive as one trapped with in time. He sees it as part of his unbound NOW. And of course, to see a man do something is NOT the same as to MAKE him do it. (If you've not read the Screwtape letters, I recommend it- also, there is a wonderful audio dramatization with Andy Serkis as Screwtape. http://www.screwtape.com/)

2. I think Asimov is almost right. There is nothing in all the Bible nor Christianity which would say God approves of liars and hypocrites abusing his name by pretending to be his servants and using his name. The whole New Testament reserves harsh language for such people. My only question is in the idea of an honest Atheist. What would that mean? One for whom purely intellectual causes have driven him from belief in God? C.S. Lewis used to be one of those, if I understand him correctly. As was Josh Mc Dowell, Lee Stroble, and William Lane Craig. If I were you, I’d honestly look into their stories and see what they learned.


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Sugar Bomb wrote:Two

Sugar Bomb wrote:

Two responses:

1. It is incorrect to think that God's knowledge of the future means he CONTROLS every future choice. As CS Lewis explained through Screwtape in The Screwtape Letters- God doesn't see the future as we do, waiting for it to arrive as one trapped with in time. He sees it as part of his unbound NOW. And of course, to see a man do something is NOT the same as to MAKE him do it. (If you've not read the Screwtape letters, I recommend it- also, there is a wonderful audio dramatization with Andy Serkis as Screwtape. http://www.screwtape.com/)

2. I think Asimov is almost right. There is nothing in all the Bible nor Christianity which would say God approves of liars and hypocrites abusing his name by pretending to be his servants and using his name. The whole New Testament reserves harsh language for such people. My only question is in the idea of an honest Atheist. What would that mean? One for whom purely intellectual causes have driven him from belief in God? C.S. Lewis used to be one of those, if I understand him correctly. As was Josh Mc Dowell, Lee Stroble, and William Lane Craig. If I were you, I’d honestly look into their stories and see what they learned.

1. How is knowing what choice you are going to make before you make it and punishing you for the choice he knew you'd make not wrong?

2. I find it interesting that you talk about liars and hypocrites abusing God's name and then mention McDowell, Strobel and Craig. You must not have read them.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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m-big wrote: God killed all

m-big wrote:

God killed all those people because they violated His laws.  They violated His laws because they chose to.  And they chose to because they were tempted by Satan.  Therefore, Satan had a hand in their death but those people are ultimately responsible for their choices.

I like how you say that these people "choose" to violate god. Then sugar whatever says that god know the future and it's set in stone. So there's no chose to be made. Can the two of you can get on the same page may it would be easier to understand your insane positions.

Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…


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in fairness

MattShizzle wrote:
There's nothing wrong with abortion. God in the Babble killed actual people, not just fetuses - and look how many miscarriages there are! If God exists, he's the greatest abortionist ever!

If you blame god for all the bad things that happen in the world then in fairness you should thank god for all the good things in the world or do you just take them for granted?


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Rook, this is in  response

Rook, this is in  response to your post about hitler etc, Very good work! I know this was a long time ago but I just read it and am blown away by the evidence. I have copied some of this down for my own reference. Great work. My wife has bought this up before so now we can research it together.

 

Ed


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Anonymous123

Anonymous123 wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:
There's nothing wrong with abortion. God in the Babble killed actual people, not just fetuses - and look how many miscarriages there are! If God exists, he's the greatest abortionist ever!

If you blame god for all the bad things that happen in the world then in fairness you should thank god for all the good things in the world or do you just take them for granted?

As there is no evidence for a god, we neither credit him nor blame him for the happenings of the world.

It's the theist who believe they must shield their omnipotent deity from being involved in bad things. Praise him for all he does, not just the stuff you like.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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m-big wrote:God killed all

m-big wrote:

God killed all those people because they violated His laws.  They violated His laws because they chose to.  And they chose to because they were tempted by Satan.  Therefore, Satan had a hand in their death but those people are ultimately responsible for their choices.

Theistic flawgic


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m-big wrote:God killed all

m-big wrote:

God killed all those people because they violated His laws.

   So, most killers kill for a reason, even if it's a twisted reason.  Everyone has a motive don't they ?