Greydon Square attacks Brian Sapient (later pleas guilty)

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Greydon Square attacks Brian Sapient (later pleas guilty)

Brian, I realize that words alone aren't worth much, but since I have nothing else to offer you:

I just wanted to give you my deepest sympathies. I'm quite sure Greydon hurt more than just your head when he attacked you. I am very sorry to hear that this happened to you, as well as the other tragedy you mentioned but did not want to discuss.

Bad things like that shouldn't happen to good people like yourself. The fact that they do will always be the most compelling evidence, to me, that there is no magical force looking out for the best interests of the meek or altruistic. It's a bleak world, sometimes, which is why I think it's so important we show kindness, compassion and companionship to one another.

 


Second post from Kevin Brown on the horrific attack by Greydon Square on Brian Sapient:

Kevin Brown wrote:

 

Brian and a number of other people from the RRS were at a secular humanist convention in the Washington District of Columbia. Greydon Square was there to both promote his CD and simply be another atheistic representative.

Greydon is, as I understand it, bipolar - and was not taking his medication. He confronted Brian at the convention over a paranoid delusion he'd developed as a result, regarding the CDs that Brian and bought and was selling at the convention (feeling that he was somehow being taken advantage of, regardless of the fact that these were CDs Brian had already paid Greydon for), and psychotically attacked and attempted to beat Brian to death (nearly succeeding in the endeavor).

 

Brian explained this story to the best of his ability to as many people as possible on Stickam, just after getting out of the hospital. He looked like he'd been hit by a truck.

To say the least, Greydon's in prison right now, charges are pending.

 

Such a waste.

 

nullusdeus wrote:

 

Brian,

I'm sure you've had other threats, but to have someone you trusted turn on you is reprehensible. I'm sure myself and countless others wish you a speedy recovery. The mental part, I realize, is the most difficult to overcome.

 

Iruka wrote:

 

Holy shit. Sad  I had no idea.

This sucks on so many levels. 

Brian, I hope you're doing better.

 

On edit: This really bothers me because if Greydon wasn't on medication, he isn't entirely responsible for his actions.  Yet I'm extremely concerned about Brian.  No winners here.  It just plain sucks.

I have a severe form of unipolar depression.  I've never developed delusions or psychoses.  I've never become violent toward others.  However, my doctor just tried to change one of my medications (sans psychiatrist because there aren't any good ones in this county).  I've been at the edge of a panic attack for about two weeks as a result.  I think (hope?)  I'm turning the corner.  It got so bad that at several points I was like, "Please, I'll believe in anything, god...just fix me!"  Of course, I don't believe in god, nor do I think I could make myself, but it was that bad.  I've been an atheist for many years and haven't felt anything like this in quite some time.

Mental illness is awful, especially because of the stigma and loss of self-respect that often follow.  For Greydon it's hard enough to be a black atheist.  Once he's well enough to realize what he's done to Brian (and probably his own career), he's going to be in a lot of pain.  I'm with Brian: Let's pray to Jake that Greydon gets the help he needs.

Again: Brian, I'm sorry this happened to you.  Rest well.  What a huge shock to you, both mentally and physically. Sad

 

What Brian Sapient has to say about Greydon Square and his assault

 

Thingy wrote:

 

Now that I know what happened, you can throw my best wishes, thoughts, and prayers to both Jake and the FSM in to the ring too.  Best of luck with the recovery Sapient.

I've never understood why people start refusing to take meds, even if they are artists and their creativity gets affected.  The downside in almost all situations I've come across (including ones that don't end up in situations like this) still don't seem worth it to me yet by the time the person gets back on the meds they've formed other rationalisations which make them not see the real affects that everyone around them sees of being off the meds.  It makes it that much easier for them to convince themself next time to stop taking them etc and turns it in to a recurring circle.  The sooner he gets back on them to realise what he's done the better. 

I hadn't bought any Greydon CD's in the past because the music just isn't my style.  It's something I probably wouldn't even listen to once, so I never bothered with the purchase.  May as well make a donation via another form as I've done via the gold membership.

bsalert wrote:

 

People have misunderstandings and conflicts, but there is no excuse for things degenerating to violence like that. 

However, I wouldn't go so far as to use Greydon as the poster child for bipolar disorder and imply that all people suffering from such ailments are prone to violence.

I would point out that there's another serious problem looming on the horizon that is affecting people like him who have served in the armed forces: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.  Not that I have any clue what is happening with him, but PTSD is another issue that I wouldn't be surprised if it was a factor. 

In any case, this is a sucky thing to have gone down.  I hope it resolves itself in a way that everyone can live with.

 

 

Three years later and Sapient still has PTSD:

Sapient wrote:

I still have PTSD from this.  I'm too embarrassed to explain publicly how that PTSD affects me, because I know it's illogical and irrational.  My fears are based solely on one person, but the PTSD remains.  

 

 

 

 

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
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Rev. Real wrote:Now I'd

Rev. Real wrote:

Now I'd think atheists can be on a higher moral ground and prove that they are better than christians in the way they treat their own kind.

-RR

Why would you think that?  We're atheists.  We don't believe in God.  We don't ceaselessly try and outdo Christians for generosity and forgiveness.  That's just not in the title.  

"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men."
--Bertrand Russell


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Greydon just posted a very

Greydon just posted a very relieving message, and I wish for him to become who he needs to be and should be for the advancement of all of our common goals.  I would also like to reiterate what should be obvious which is that I don't wish Greydon ill will, I wish him a safe and successful future.  However the flip side of this positive note is not as relieving.  Sometimes those who lash out in this manner offer apologies, but later spin down a hole that leads to flared uncontrollable tempers.  Kelly is familiar from dealing with an ex-husband that would beat her, apologize, and beat her a week later.  I hope he gets better, and time does in fact heal wounds.  I hope time works it's magic in this case, we are not healed in the RRS house, and would still feel highly uncomfortable, but I tend to be a hopeful optimistic person, maybe almost irrationally so.

In fairness, here is his statement...

 

Thursday, June 12, 2008

 

The Un-official Official Statement
Current mood: refreshed
Category: Blogging

To those interested in what has transpired in the last week,
I would like to take the time to apologize to everyone about the events that has transpired over the last week or so. I understand that I have created division and tension in the very community I sought unity in, and for this I am truly sorry and apologize. Though the fact that I have really no idea what has been said about me or my character is irrelevant. I know a lot of you have sent messages about the situation that I have not responded to, and truth be known, I don't even want to know. The fact of the matter is that no matter what business differences I may have had with Brian Sapient, I should have had more restraint and business composure than I did, and for this too, I apologize. This has given me time to reflect on my past my present and my future. Obviously the ties between myself and the Rational Response Squad Has been Severed, and understandably so, but I want people to understand that within our so called community, that while we express disbelief more-so than belief, one thing that I DO BELIEVE is that we are ALL human and we ALL make mistakes. I am a man, and due to my military background, I have had it instilled in me to take responsibility for every action that I taken whether good or bad. This is not an admission of guilt, and due to the legal process of this matter, I cannot actually make an official statement about my side of the story, so we will let the courts figure it out. To Brian and his family, I apologize for my behavior, and my conduct of late and hope that this humanistic community will find the time to understand me, and eventually forgive me. As of now IM SQUASHING ALL BEEFS that I have with ALL PEOPLE, that includes Brian Sapient, Frank Walton, Ellen Johnson, & Michael Shermer. As a result, I am choosing to once again take a step back from the forefront and examine who I am as a person and as an artist, and while after TAM6 I planned to deal with my legal issues, I also still plan or being active on the battlefront against theistic intolerance as well as the separation of Church & State. Thank you to the people who supported me through this, including my family and my peers. Oh and a special thanks goes out to Ralf.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Ummm...frank... WHO?

Ummm...

frank... WHO? Wha...?


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Rev. Real wrote:So it looks

Rev. Real wrote:

So it looks like Greydon Square is getting the official snub.  This is how Christians do it to one of their own - excommunication. 

Instead of making a good example and offering rehabilitation and reconciliation...this is what:  get your own shit together and don't come back to talk to us until you do?

 

Now I'd think atheists can be on a higher moral ground and prove that they are better than christians in the way they treat their own kind.

-RR

This isn't a snubbing. Both sides need some time to cool down.

The view you seem to be proposing is close to what the Christians believe - "You anally raped me with a broken coke bottle. I don't think I can trust you again...what? You prayed and asked Jesus to forgive you? Well, that's different. If He forgives you I forgive you too. Come on back. It'll be like it never happened"

Sapient and Greydon are human beings - don't force them to be more or less.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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jcgadfly wrote:Rev. Real

jcgadfly wrote:

Rev. Real wrote:

So it looks like Greydon Square is getting the official snub.  This is how Christians do it to one of their own - excommunication. 

Instead of making a good example and offering rehabilitation and reconciliation...this is what:  get your own shit together and don't come back to talk to us until you do?

 

Now I'd think atheists can be on a higher moral ground and prove that they are better than christians in the way they treat their own kind.

-RR

This isn't a snubbing. Both sides need some time to cool down.

The view you seem to be proposing is close to what the Christians believe - "You anally raped me with a broken coke bottle. I don't think I can trust you again...what? You prayed and asked Jesus to forgive you? Well, that's different. If He forgives you I forgive you too. Come on back. It'll be like it never happened"

Sapient and Greydon are human beings - don't force them to be more or less.

Word.

And the same goes for all of us as we express our feelings on the matter.  We're only human.

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jcgadfly wrote:Sapient and

jcgadfly wrote:

Sapient and Greydon are human beings - don't force them to be more or less.

Sure I know that, but how do you deal with violent behavior?  And BTW maybe the whole bi-polar rumor is untrue, or maybe it is and now it is on front street and GS has to cover up his mess by denials.

If this is true, then most people wouldn't be so open about a mental illness.  People keep secrets for different reasons and this could be creating the cognitive dissonance.

I don't know the guy except from what I see on the internet.  Last I saw he was at an atheist convention on ABC TV.  This incident has a lot of visibility.  The atheist community is watching.  Friendly Atheist just commented on it (and I concur).

Also didn't he grow up in the ghetto?  I mean straight outta Compton.

Hambydammit wrote:

Didn't Christina Ricci do some independent movie about a really smart girl who was bipolar?

 

Watched this last week and she did an excellent job playing a dirty feet peckerwood nympho.  I don't know if she was bipolar, but sure reminds me a girl I used to know. Smiling

 

-RR

 


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greydon wrote: ... I should

greydon wrote:

 

... I should have had more restraint and business composure than I did ...

 

This is a joke, right?

 

watcher wrote:

 

However, I don't think going rabid on him is the appropriate response.  Better to just shun him ...

 

 

Or maybe that was it?

 

Thank Jake I've lightened up!

 

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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Rev. Real wrote:jcgadfly

Rev. Real wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Sapient and Greydon are human beings - don't force them to be more or less.

Sure I know that, but how do you deal with violent behavior?  And BTW maybe the whole bi-polar rumor is untrue, or maybe it is and now it is on front street and GS has to cover up his mess by denials.

If this is true, then most people wouldn't be so open about a mental illness.  People keep secrets for different reasons and this could be creating the cognitive dissonance.

I don't know the guy except from what I see on the internet.  Last I saw he was at an atheist convention on ABC TV.  This incident has a lot of visibility.  The atheist community is watching.  Friendly Atheist just commented on it (and I concur).

Also didn't he grow up in the ghetto?  I mean straight outta Compton.

Hambydammit wrote:

Didn't Christina Ricci do some independent movie about a really smart girl who was bipolar?

 

Watched this last week and she did an excellent job playing a dirty feet peckerwood nympho.  I don't know if she was bipolar, but sure reminds me a girl I used to know. Smiling

 

-RR

 

If GS is trying to cover it up, it's a damned stupid way to get street credibility to boost sales. We know he's more intelligent than that - he's just got this silly notion in his head that his meds block his creativity (imo, that's only one part of the creativity equation)

How do I deal with violent behavior? It depends on how much time I have. If I have enough time to avoid it, I do. If I'm forced into the situation as in this case I try to stop it with as little bloodshed/injury as possible(to the other party if possible, to me for damned sure).

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Rev. Real wrote:...Also

Rev. Real wrote:
...

Also didn't he grow up in the ghetto?  I mean straight outta Compton....

What the fuck do you mean by that comment? I didn't realise that this place housed people like you. That is an outrageous thing to say.

And to think that I am labelled a "troll".

 

 


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Sources

Nialler wrote:

Rev. Real wrote:
...

Also didn't he grow up in the ghetto?  I mean straight outta Compton....

What the fuck do you mean by that comment? I didn't realise that this place housed people like you. That is an outrageous thing to say.

And to think that I am labelled a "troll".

top40-charts.com wrote:
Raised as a legal orphan in the Department of Children & Family services system of southern California, Greydon Square is a native of Compton, grew up in gang life and is an Iraqi war veteran among other things. Greydon, born Eddie Collins, left Compton in May of 2001, to enlist in the United States army.

From http://top40-charts.com/news.php?nid=33326

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Nialler wrote:Rev. Real

Nialler wrote:

Rev. Real wrote:
...

Also didn't he grow up in the ghetto?  I mean straight outta Compton....

What the fuck do you mean by that comment? I didn't realise that this place housed people like you. That is an outrageous thing to say.

And to think that I am labelled a "troll".

I'm removing the label for now.  I appreciate the sentiment you posted in this thread. 

- Brian Sapient


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Nialler wrote:Rev. Real

Nialler wrote:

Rev. Real wrote:
...

Also didn't he grow up in the ghetto?  I mean straight outta Compton....

What the fuck do you mean by that comment? I didn't realise that this place housed people like you. That is an outrageous thing to say.

And to think that I am labelled a "troll".

 

 

 

That's not cool. As an honorary pimp I am pissed. Try tellig that to 50 Cent. The ghosts of Iceberg Slim and Donald Goines are going to haunt you for that.

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Hey gang just wanted to

Hey gang just wanted to address two issues real quick even though they've been covered, however I do have more details on the shipping of Greydon CD's.  It seems the equivalent of the atheist paparazzi are working their rumor spreading magic on this issue all over the place, and although this has been made clear I wanted to reiterate. 

- If my recollection serves me correctly Greydon himself talks about being bipolar openly.  He's stated this to many people, and I recall originally learning about it in one of his videos, additionally he alludes to this in his music.  I apologize if anyone has thought that I would speak about Greydons mental state in order to make things seem worse for him, or in any negative way about him.  If anything a rational person should realize that saying such a thing about him under the circumstances would potentially absolve him from the other scenario which is that he is simply a violent person.  I have a great deal of empathy for someone who is unable to control their emotions as should be illustrated from the comments I've made in this thread.  From the outset I have stated that I hope (if his reaction was in fact an uncontrollable one) that he get well or take the necessary steps to ensure he doesn't endanger others in the future.  The notion that I would be saying anything about his mental health in order to make things worse for him is ludicrous to me.  Approximately 5.7 million Americans are affected with bipolar, and my heart goes out to those people, just as it does for people who are afflicted with any ailment that makes their lives more difficult to manage.  Additionally 1 in 4 Americans are dealing with a mental disorder.  I don't feel as if we should shut our mouths in regards to such statistics, and instead feel as if we should be able to openly discuss them.  Furthermore I feel that those who paint any honest portrayal of another persons mental state as a bad thing are doing a disservice to all parties involved, and are actually furthering a stigmatization of any mental ailment that the affected person may have.  Accusing me of asserting that Greydon is bipolar is some form of revenge on Greydon which it clearly isn't, actually makes Greydon look worse.  My apologies to Greydon if he was unhappy by anything I've stated about the event and his mental state, my desire was to portray as accurately as possible what happened or what the potential reasons behind the "simple assault" would've been.

- Additionally Lori and I have every intention on filling all back orders of Greydon Square CD's in the next 48 hours to be sent in Mondays mail.  I thought it was very obvious from my perspective but I suppose it was not, so I should inform you that it was my responsibility and my responsibility alone to ensure that Greydons CD's were sent on time.  I did not realize that anyone would think that Greydon was responsible for his shipping on CD's and now realize based on the way that the CDs were listed for sale that the purchaser would not now that the CD's were solely my responsibility.  To anyone that thought Greydon was at fault for delays in shipping, please understand that is not the case, that blame falls on me.  Furthermore, there never has been nor would there ever be any intention within my group to rip people off.  Unfortunately I had a miscommunication with the volunteer who I enlisted to send the CDs out and she did not realize that I was unaware that the CD's weren't being sent until a few days before I saw Greydon.  Furthermore as stated before, Kelly and I have been dealing with a seperate trauma (unrelated to RRS) of a much higher severity than what happened to me with Greydon last weekend and my own ability to adhere to work related needs suffered for a brief period of time, thereby making it more difficult for me to notice or communicate with my volunteer on this issue.  While the buck stops with me, I assure the community I was unaware at the time that the CDs weren't being sent out and my volunteer assures me she was unaware that I was unaware.  In summation, my apologies to anyone who has felt inconvenienced by not receiving their CD on time, and we will make every attempt to have them all out in Mondays mail.  We will also be sending CDs to the several people who disputed claims with paypal and were refunded their money for the inconvenience.  Greydon is not at fault for CDs not have being shipped on time.  Upon the completion of sending this batch of CDs (I'm still unsure of how many need to be sent) it seems as if they will be near the end of the batch, and per Greydons wishes we will no longer sell them to the public.  The order form is removed from both this site and Greydons site.

Furthermore, out of respect for Greydon since he's obviously frustrated with our performance on this end, I have removed the typical RRS support information from his site, and continue to host his site for free on our server.  Shall he choose to move his site to a new server I would assume he knows that all he needs to do is change the nameservers on his domain name.  He still has rights on his site which is hosted by RRS, and RRS supportive information (including the donate section) have been removed.

I hope that helps clear some loose ends up that are part of the libel train directed at me and the RRS.

- Brian Sapient


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Wow I had no idea that this

Wow I had no idea that this had happened, can't imagine going through something like that. I wish you a good recovery, Brian.


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Brian it sounds like you

Brian it sounds like you trying to excuse Greydon behaviour which says positive things about you BUT

Bipolar disorder or any other depression does NOT make a person violent, there is simply no evidence for it. As best it may make a person hyperactive or irritable but neither of these makes a person turn to violence. Its quite possibly that an individual has  violent personality which can lead to some forms of depression.

Saying a person is violent because they are bipolar is a bit like saying the person was only violent because they were drunk. Alcohol doesnt make a person hit his wife, an unpleasant person who likes doing this may like his drink as well but all alcohol ever does is exaggerate existing tendencies.

I suffered greatly from depression most my life and its generally under control these days and I've certainly have violent thoughts against myself but the idea it would make me want to hit someone else is just absurd when it was really bad I could barely get out of bed never mind start a fight.

 

Violent people 99% of the time are just bad people and even if they have genuine illness that makes them this way they should still be in a secure hospital not on the streets. If they are trusted enough to be on the street controlled by medication then it their responsbility to take the mediation if they dont they should be treated in exactly the same way as a healthy criminal.

 

 

 


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I've read the comments on

I've read the comments on the blogosphere.  It looks like there are haters of the RRS based on their speculation of business practices, personal conduct, and lifestyle. 

For the sake of rationality this comment made the biggest impact on me:

Basically,i am mostly posting here to relate to you my very real disappointment that what went down between Brian and Greydon wasn't recorded by an historian,complete with peer reviewed youtube links

 

We'll have to see if something good comes out of this.  I sympathize with both parties.

-RR

 


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Quote:What the fuck do you

Quote:

What the fuck do you mean by that comment? I didn't realise that this place housed people like you. That is an outrageous thing to say.

And to think that I am labelled a "troll".

You're labeled a troll because you are one.  This comment is indicative of why you're a troll.  Greydon DID grow up in Compton.  It IS the ghetto.  Living in that kind of environment DOES have an effect on people, and violence is usually part of growing up.  The comment was true and relevant.  But guess what... you want to make it into RRS being a place that houses what you call "people like you."  Of course, by that, you mean what?  Racist?

You're a troll, and a generally unpleasant person, but that's your right.  Enjoy your time on the boards.

 

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Is it any surprise that the

Is it any surprise that the asshats at the rdf site and the rants and raves site think this is a big joke?

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MattShizzle wrote:Is it any

MattShizzle wrote:

Is it any surprise that the asshats at the rdf site and the rants and raves site think this is a big joke?

No.  What is a surprise is to see the humanity in some of them, that they feel bad about it. You should know the haters tend to be a very small group shouting as loud and as often as they can and not indicative of the community at large.  The irony is to have people who seem to have so much time to have their head in my asshole as they call me slacker... get a life haters.

 

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Whoops.  Sapient, I didn't

Whoops.  Sapient, I didn't see your post earlier removing the troll label from Nialler.  I applaud your sense of fair play and giving him a shot to be a decent human being.  I'm not betting with you on this one, but I would love it if you're right.

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Whoops. 

Hambydammit wrote:

Whoops.  Sapient, I didn't see your post earlier removing the troll label from Nialler.  I applaud your sense of fair play and giving him a shot to be a decent human being.  I'm not betting with you on this one, but I would love it if you're right.

I'm not betting either, however he is slightly more docile and also slightly more rational than some of the folks he runs with. On top of that, Kelly said she never really agreed with the troll badge on him.  At least he stuck around, he's got that going for him.

 

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mrjonno wrote:Brian it

mrjonno wrote:

Brian it sounds like you trying to excuse Greydon behaviour which says positive things about you BUT

Bipolar disorder or any other depression does NOT make a person violent, there is simply no evidence for it. As best it may make a person hyperactive or irritable but neither of these makes a person turn to violence. Its quite possibly that an individual has  violent personality which can lead to some forms of depression.

Saying a person is violent because they are bipolar is a bit like saying the person was only violent because they were drunk. Alcohol doesnt make a person hit his wife, an unpleasant person who likes doing this may like his drink as well but all alcohol ever does is exaggerate existing tendencies.

Jonno~ I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. I HAVE known bipolar people that have been quite violent as a result of their condition.

In high school, I was friends with a guy whom I ended up dating for a few months. His older sister was in the grade above me, and had been diagnosed with bipolar depression sometime in her early teens. During her sophomore year of hs, she spent several months in the psych ward because of it. She was a senior when her brother and I dated, and luckily for me, I was never on the receiving end of her bad moods. She viewed me as sort of a little sister, and if anyone ever talked shit about me, she would curse them out. There were some rumors spread about me and her brother, and she was very protective of us - it was almost like she perceived any attack against our relationship as a direct attack against her as well.
When she was happy, she was HAPPY. She was very generous a lot of times, offering me cigarettes and rides in her car. She would be chatty, super-energetic, smiley.

But the tiniest thing could set her off. It was not uncommon for me to walk into the girls' bathroom to find her crying, with one or two of her friends trying to console her and talk her out of suicide. Half the time I didn't even know what had caused her to get so upset. She missed more school than most people, because there were days she couldn't bring herself to get out of bed. Her brother often told me about fights that occurred in their home, because when she was "down," she was so irrational and felt like everyone was out to get her. There was one particularly bad incident, in which she apparently was in a shouting match with her mother and step-father, and started trying to beat up the step-father with her fists, and then chased him around beating him with a piece of wood. The police were called, and she fled. The next day, her brother and I were hanging out at my house, when she showed up at my door. She had run away and was staying with a close friend, who had accompanied her. She asked if she could borrow clothes from me, since we were the same size, and I obliged. She was sweet as could be through the whole ordeal; no trace of the violent girl from the night before.

I would say that, from the sound of things, Greydon's behavior fits this profile as well. The rapid mood swings, the conspiracy theorist attitude, the unprovoked violence... these do appear to be manifestations of bipolar disorder. In the case of my friend, I always tried to help her and never held her actions against her, because it was clear that this was something she struggled to control.

 

mrjonno wrote:

I suffered greatly from depression most my life and its generally under control these days and I've certainly have violent thoughts against myself but the idea it would make me want to hit someone else is just absurd when it was really bad I could barely get out of bed never mind start a fight.

 

Violent people 99% of the time are just bad people and even if they have genuine illness that makes them this way they should still be in a secure hospital not on the streets. If they are trusted enough to be on the street controlled by medication then it their responsbility to take the mediation if they dont they should be treated in exactly the same way as a healthy criminal. 

I agree, I've suffered from depression too, and it was horrible. Most of the time I was mopey and anti-social, but I hated when people pushed my frustration over the edge, and that could cause me to lose my temper - quite uncharacteristic of me. I got sent to the dean for yelling "fuck you all" during cheerleading practice - yes, I went to a religious private school, where apparently that's a huge crime.

But I guess my point is that bipolar depression is much different from regular depression, and the two should not be considered synonymous. Depression is generally caused by dissatisfaction with one's life, arrived at through rational assessment. Chemically, most people with depression are low on serotonin and norepinephrine, as was the case with me. Bipolar depression is typically the result of genetic factors, coupled with biological susceptibility (e.g. neurotransmitter imbalances) and exacerbated by life situations. Oftentimes, the conclusions reached by someone who is bipolar are NOT rationally derived, and furthermore, they tend to act in irrational ways.

I'm no psychiatrist, so perhaps I'm wrong here, but I think that given my personal experiences, it is entirely possible that an act of violence could be solely due to bipolar depression.


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I agree with Kelley, and say

I agree with Kelley, and say send an invitation to even the super crazies, as they also usually provide important revealing educational debate.

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Hmm I wonder if the word

Hmm I wonder if the word bi-polar is used differently in the  US. Unfortunately psychatriatry is more vulnerable to politics than other branches of medicine. 90% of all users of the drug Ritalin are in the US, its still argued whether ADHD even exists outside the US. I think the general European believe is badly behaved children are due to poor upbringings (which may not be directly the parents fault).

I am not saying you don't get violent bipolar people I just not convinced this is the cause. Do we have any shinks on these forums preferable America and non-American who can comment on this would be very interested.


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Don't know about differences

Don't know about differences between the UK and US in diagnosing bipolar, but I do know that legally both countries do not allow bipolar as admissable clinical cause for anti-social behaviour in defence cases. It's not a disease but a category, and within that category lies a whole swathe of mood disorders, some of which are admissable, others not. It hinges on the predictive nature of diagnosis - if it can be demonstrated that the disease diagnosed is the principal cause of the behaviour to the point that future behaviour can be predicted and established treatments are guaranteed to alter that behaviour, then a court can factor it in as a cause. If, like ADHD and other mood disorder diagnoses, the resultant behaviour is non-predictive and does not follow any distinct pattern, then a court cannot use this as a causal factor.

 

Incidentally there is no clinical connection either between bipolarism and violence directed against others. According to Kay Redfield Jamison the opposite is the case. Bipolarism is typified by self-obsession and self-consciousness that leads to higher levels of self-control than people who engage in spontaneous violence demonstrate.

 

Whatever drives a person to pummell another in the face with his fists because of a disagreement over CD distribution it's not bipolarism. I reckon the same guy's summary of the incident as a lapse in business ethics might suggest a more correct answer.

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I've only brought this up as

I've only brought this up as something like 1 in 4 people will have some sort of mental illness in life and I don't think there is shred of evidence that those 1 in 4 are any more likely to be violent and to say otherwise is in effect to libel a lot of people.

 

 


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mrjonno wrote:I've only

mrjonno wrote:

I've only brought this up as something like 1 in 4 people will have some sort of mental illness in life and I don't think there is shred of evidence that those 1 in 4 are any more likely to be violent and to say otherwise is in effect to libel a lot of people.

 

 

There are different degrees of "mental illness".  One could be only mildly neurotic to a full blown psychotic.  If mental illness and violent tendencies are such rare occurrences the why do psychiatric hospitals still have procedures ( and equipment ) to restrain violent patients ?   

Distinctions should be made as to the type and severity of a person's symptoms: "mental illness" is much too broad a term to be making such sweeping generalizations about possible violent tendencies.  There is a broad spectrum of disorders and to make blanket statements such as yours is a gross oversimplification.

As far as "libel" is concerned, to simply be classified as mentally ill already carries a huge stigma.  Try putting down that you are a paranoid schizophrenic on an employment application and see if you get hired.

 

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There are undoubtedly

There are undoubtedly psychiatric disorders in which excessively violent behaviour is a predictable trait. Bipolarism is not one of them however, and that is the one that has been presented here as an explanation for an assault.

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All of the Greydon Square CD

All of the Greydon Square CD orders that were unfulfilled have been packed and completed, ready for the post office on Monday.  They will be sent via media mail (7-10 days) with delivery confirmation and tracking. 

- Brian Sapient


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Nordmann wrote: There are

Nordmann wrote:

There are undoubtedly psychiatric disorders in which excessively violent behaviour is a predictable trait. Bipolarism is not one of them however, and that is the one that has been presented here as an explanation for an assault.

             http://www.psychlaws.org/GeneralResources/Facts1.htm

             http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-md02.html

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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Thanks for the links

Thanks for the links Prozacdeathwish, they support completely my point. If the alleged assailant in the case reported on this thread wishes to use his bipolarity as a mitigating circumstance then he will have to explain just which psychosis he suffers from which his bipolarity has increased his susceptibility to.

 

And, as in the Bebb murder case cited on on of these links, he will have to entertain the defence of pleading insanity - not a condition bipolarity automatically confers in the slightest - in order to avail of such a claim of mitigation in a court of law.

 

His violence, to put it plainly, is not a product of his bipolarity. It may well have a cause, but if a cause is to be presented in his defence then he would be wise not to claim it was his bipolarity. That will invalidate his plea, not support it. The law is rather a stickler on violence - if it is committed while sane the perpetrator must pay the penalty. If it is committed while insane the perpetrator must pay the penalty and take the treatment.

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Nordmann wrote:Thanks for

Nordmann wrote:

Thanks for the links Prozacdeathwish, they support completely my point. If the alleged assailant in the case reported on this thread wishes to use his bipolarity as a mitigating circumstance then he will have to explain just which psychosis he suffers from which his bipolarity has increased his susceptibility to.

 

And, as in the Bebb murder case cited on on of these links, he will have to entertain the defence of pleading insanity - not a condition bipolarity automatically confers in the slightest - in order to avail of such a claim of mitigation in a court of law.

 

His violence, to put it plainly, is not a product of his bipolarity. It may well have a cause, but if a cause is to be presented in his defence then he would be wise not to claim it was his bipolarity. That will invalidate his plea, not support it. The law is rather a stickler on violence - if it is committed while sane the perpetrator must pay the penalty. If it is committed while insane the perpetrator must pay the penalty and take the treatment.

 

I'm glad you found the link informative.  ( I'm sorry the other was a dead link.)  If you scrolled down to the topic "Articles on Violence"  you will find a few articles that contain statistics that are predicated upon the violent acts of two specific categories, persons who are schizophrenic and those who are bi polar.  The various articles relate to those individual who are  suffering from untreated mental illnesses.  

One could only assume that if statistics are being maintained regarding the violent behavior of some mental patients, including those classified as bi polar, that the association between violence and untreated brain diseases must be more significant than you are willing to acknowledge.

 

 As far as Greydon Square's legal status is concerned, well the justice system is simply a game that is played between the prosecution and the defense and despite the arbitrary use of "scientific facts" the outcome is never a forgone conclusion.

 

 

www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/misanthropy

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The legal system might

The legal system might appear to be simply a "game" but it does have rules, and the area of what evidence is deemed admissable is one where those rules strictly apply. Schizophrenia, for example, is one mental disorder which in fact can be used to provide a clinical explanation of criminal behaviour for which the perpetrator disavows full responsibility. But even then the defendant has to provide reasonable evidence that this illness played a role in his crime. Bipolarism is not, since it is an umbrella term for various mood disorders and insufficient an explanation for any particular behaviour without further qualification, and a lot of it.

 

The article you indicate is rather vague when it comes to indicating what illnesses trigger violent behaviour. In fact it mentions only two disorders by name - schizophrenia and bipolarism - but then continues with a comprehensive list of "danger signs" and signals of potentially violent behaviour few of which will be familiar to the many people suffering from, or familiar with, bipolarism and quite a few that are not clinically attributable to either condition but belong instead to the psychotic group of illnesses.

 

The propensity to behave violently can be amplified by mental illness, especially when the illness leads to the development of psychosis, but it is in no way solely attributable to mental illness. Social conditioning and an unreinforced ability to empathise also play a huge role in producing violent people. One thing is also certain - mood disorders in themselves do not make a person more or less inclined to inflict violence against others (against themselves is a different story), but should a person already be inclined to behaving violently then indeed the depressed periods to which bipolar sufferers are subjected to are likely times for that behaviour to be expressed - as indeed are the hypomanic periods. If the individual in question here maintains that his bipolarity was a factor in this case then he has to go further and provide medical evidence that his mood swings allow a more serious mental disorder, such as psychosis, to dictate his actions. Even then he has to go further again and demonstrate to the court's satisfaction that this applied at the moment in question.

 

It's a tall order - and even should he convince the court he runs the risk of incarceration on medical grounds since his defence rested on the admission that he is subject clinically to bouts of violence against others over which he has no control when they occur. His "apology" as printed above however indicates to me that he has a serious problem with accepting responsibility period - not an indication of a mental illness but an indication of an arrogance and faulty understanding of consequence based on an inflated ego and an equally inflated sense of worth, but without the social intelligence to express this false view of himself except through aggression. In this case the aggression was concentrated on one victim. That is a crime.

 

<edit> Sorry, almost forgot. Should he be stupid enough to emhasise in his defence that he has already been diagnosed with a clinical illness but has voluntarily opted not to take the prescribed medicinal treatment then he runs an even greater risk of incarceration, even ironically if the mental illness is not regarded as a factor in the crime. This too will be legally construed as evidence of failure to take responsibility however.

The clever thing to do, given the seriousness of the consequences should a defence based on mental instability backfire, is to plead guilty to the charge and take the punishment. An examination of the defendant's behaviour with regard to managing his mental illness, which would follow a "not guilty" plea based on diminished responsibility, can only work against his chances of avoiding an even lengthier custodial sentence imposed for his own good.

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Greydon CDs

Well this is an odd turn of events.

In February, I ordered a 3-pack of Greydon's CDs for myself and to give to friends, and a month later, still hadn't received them.

Subsequently, I made numerous contact attempts to Brian and Greydon to say "Where's my CD's?" with a response from Greydon, but still no CDs.  The Post Office reported shipping them, but not delivering them.

So... I have just received them TWO DAYS AGO.  It appears that this is just how long the Post Office took to get them to me? Ridiculous.  Hopefully, Greydon wasn't prompted to be upset by complaints about situations like mine, thinking Brian was to Blame.

I hope this can get worked out amicably.  I hate to see divisions within Athiendom Eye-wink


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:'(

This is extremely disappointing all around. I love Sapient for what he has done for Atheism and I am also very fond of GS's music and message, and it's really sad that all of this happened and that, figuratively, "Mommy and daddy can't live together any more."

 

While I do understand the bad mojo directed towards Greydon, I do agree with whomever said that this feels like an excommunication. One has to remember that a mental illness is an illness, and that GS wasn't entirely himself. That being said, I think that he definitely needs help because whatever he's doing to keep his crazies inside obviously isn't working.

 

But the whole idea of "shunning" him is bullshit.

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Zymotic wrote:But the whole

Zymotic wrote:

But the whole idea of "shunning" him is bullshit.

Fine.  You go hang out with a 6'6" military veteran, that potentially has bipolar personality, has a history of violence, and apparently refuses to take his medication.

I'm saying, until he becomes responsible enough to take his medication or whatever else is needed so he is no longer a threat to those around him, I will not associate with such a person.

If he's willing to do what is necessary to be able to maintain control I'll welcome him back with open arms.  I really hope he does contain this behaviour.  Very much so.

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Wishing you a speedy

Wishing you a speedy recovery Brian. I have been the victim of two individuals with mental illness and violent tendancies in my past...it's complex, and every case is different. I hope that this individual seeks the help he so obviously needs before someone else gets hurt.


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He has already been

He has already been "disinvited" to some atheist events - from the little I read it wasn't a "shunning" or "excommunication" - it was a safety issue. I personally think from what I've read here and elsewhere he should be hospitalized rather than incarcerated.

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well fuck!

dammit - where can I send my Greydon CD for a refund?  Oh wait, I got it from his own web site.

What a fucktard.  Wish I had been there to see it - I don't care how big he is, I would have either tackled him or hit him repeatedly with the nearest heavy object.  There is NO excuse for an attack like that, short of self-defense.  He's lucky no one in the room had a concealed carry weapon on him.


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This was in Washington DC -

This was in Washington DC - concealed carry not legal there - in fact I think owning a pistol there is illegal period.

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Wow this came to me as a

Wow this came to me as a shocker. I go away for bout a week or two for WOW and i come back to this wow. Hope your recovery is going well brian.  I was going to buy a GS CD, but now im going to wait to see how he changes his life. I only support musicians if i like how they are handling their life. (yes i only own probly 20 CD's due to this) But man that sucks i hope he gets the help that he needs.

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Wow, I've been in and out of

Wow, I've been in and out of the forums and rarely in chat. I'm probably more stunned now than I was with that other thing involving one of the more renowned guests.

As far as my opinion goes. . .I don't have one yet. As I've told him before in stickam, Brian is my hero. I don't take kindly to people beating on my heros. I based my judgment of Greydon's character off of Brian's, and for the most part he was right. Greydon had something new going, but it's up to him whether is goes from being new to that tired old drama that is so cliche of his genre. What's more I know that if Greydon doesn't get his shit together, the biggest insult will be directly from his own mind. . .

 

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Crazy

Damn I can't believe GS did that shit! Wow.  I hope Brian is ok.  My vote is for Syqnys too, he's fucking awesome!  He does need to work on his music career more though.  Lol.

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greydon square

  What the Fudge !!!

What a ASSHOLE ,this clown states that the Military drilled into him to take responsilbility for your Actions,and then this Idiot states in the very next sentence that  "This is not an admission of guilt",sounds like he forgot that he's a Delusional Asshole.Take care Brian, and may the voice of Reason prevail.

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Ken G. wrote:  What the

Ken G. wrote:

  What the Fudge !!!

What a ASSHOLE ,this clown states that the Military drilled into him to take responsilbility for your Actions,and then this Idiot states in the very next sentence that  "This is not an admission of guilt",sounds like he forgot that he's a Delusional Asshole.Take care Brian, and may the voice of Reason prevail.

Obviously, you don't realize he made the comment "This is not an admission of guilt" as a way of saving his ass legally. Had he admitted to the guilt, it would have thrown out any chance he had legally of defending a not guilty plea as it could have been used as evidence against him. So in the future, don't be too quick to judge, because I'm pretty sure his lawyer would have asked that he made that qualifier.

Anyway, I wish you, Brian, a speedy and full recovery and I hope that this tragedy serves as a lesson for us all.


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They mentioned in the

They mentioned in the Non-prophets podcast that Greydon wasn't any longer invited to some functions but only mentions at that one that there was "controversy" involving him. Not sure why they didn't say what happened.

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GUNS

  Not any more.they changed the law last week

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Soundwave wrote:Ken G.

Soundwave wrote:

Ken G. wrote:

  What the Fudge !!!

What a ASSHOLE ,this clown states that the Military drilled into him to take responsilbility for your Actions,and then this Idiot states in the very next sentence that  "This is not an admission of guilt",sounds like he forgot that he's a Delusional Asshole.Take care Brian, and may the voice of Reason prevail.

Obviously, you don't realize he made the comment "This is not an admission of guilt" as a way of saving his ass legally. Had he admitted to the guilt, it would have thrown out any chance he had legally of defending a not guilty plea as it could have been used as evidence against him. So in the future, don't be too quick to judge, because I'm pretty sure his lawyer would have asked that he made that qualifier.

Claiming "this is not an admission of guilt" does absolutely nothing to defend you in court when you admit to what happened.  The photographs the police took tell their own story, and need no statement from either side.

 

Quote:

Anyway, I wish you, Brian, a speedy and full recovery and I hope that this tragedy serves as a lesson for us all.

Thanks.  I still have some tissue damage, possibly some nerve damage becoming clearer now that swelling is almost gone.  I'm hoping for no long term effects at all, which is what I was originally told.

 

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Sorry bro

Brian,

 

You kicked me awhile back in a Myspace chatroom for bringing up my opinion of Greydon's music. I simply brought up that I thought the music was just plain terrible... then was kicked shortly after. I used to be "Bornright" when I first joined RRS. Used to follow you guys closely. Now just reporting in because I find this so funny after this whole time I've been saying how much Greydon's music sucks.


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bi-polar

I'm not saying what Greydon did was right in any sense, but I'm bi-polar and I understand!