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Posted on: June 19, 2007 - 2:36am
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Help us create the next big project...
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I am diggin on the Tax exemption deal Brian
maybe call it something like "Stop the Exemption Challenge" I dunno just a thought. I mean how many RRS memebers are there and on top of that how many churches are in a 10 mile radius or any members home?
there is a lot of good that can be done with this idea imo.
Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evange
I have a few questions about these ideas.
1. How could I get my bible(s) to give to recycling?
2. Could you explain, in detail, about how getting information about a church "endorsing" a politician can remove them from being tax exempt?
Hey RRS
This is not the greatest idea but I figured since
you are located in philly, I would inform you, if you
didn't already know so, of a little problem going
on with Philadelphia Community College (CCP). I
have been a student there for about 3 years and
atleast once a week or everyother, my fellow
students and I are subdued to the loud yelling of a
group of 2 or sometimes 3 men that stop by
outside the lunch room to preach the teachings of
Jesus and scream to us how we are all going to
hell! Not only am I offended by there rudeness but
also other students and some teachers. I have
also over heard that they also go to Temple Univ.
and do the same thing. Who sends them I don't
know but I believe it's a violation of my freedom to
sit outside peacefully and not have to deal with
people screaming damnation to those not of there
faith, sinners, gays, and my personal favorite,
masterbation. I have tried several times to
converse with these people about rationality but I
am neither a well spoken or that intellectual of an
individual. I have done this which isnt much but
hey it got some people thinking :
See this slideshow.
I don't know what you could do, I don't have
much info on them other than they play pictionary
with finger paint and relate it to GOD and they
show up out there atleast once every other week.
I would be in your eternal debt if you'd vanquish
them from the school and I would be willing to
help with whatever you'd need but anyway as I
said not really a project more of a plea. Figured
you should know if you don't.
Keep up the great work
Yours truely
Rob Brotz
I had a similar idea to the recycle your bible one a while back: sponsor a bible burning. The two are very similar except I am not prepared to knock on peoples doors either. So I figured I could do it on street corners (like those salvation army bastards, santa clauses or street preachers,) by setting up like a booth or a drum (for collecting bibles,) to firstly get people to pledge a certain amount of money per bible burned. I was thinking AIDS charities (like the Bill Gates foundation since he's an atheist.)
The second reason to set up a booth is to convince people to go and grab their bibles from their homes, businesses, hotels etc. and bring them back to burn at a later designated date (like later on that night or on the weekend.) You could make an event of it where the people sacrificing their bibles can meet the sponsors and discuss the reasons why humans don't need the bible to be "good people." I was considering making a bonfire on the beach...or a bbq, just because it would make great film - watching a leg of lamb roast over the burning bibles.
The recycling idea is probably more justifyable ethically though since I really hate the idea of burning books (even the bible. ) And all those trees being cut down in vain makes me cringe too. But symbolically a burning pile of books is quite powerful imagery. You could probably get a bit more money for stem cell research by getting people to pledge a certain amount per bible recycled though.
The other thing I was going to suggest was if you were wanting to do something specifically targeted at muslims, why not try a fatwa? I don't know if you've seen this Australian tv show called John Safran Vs God but he did a piece "how difficult is it to get a fatwa on Rove Mcmanus?" You might like to try getting fatwas on your friends, that is if you're brave enough to go near these crazy clerics.
That's all I got for now!
I'd like to add onto Sapient's idea of tax exempt status...
Is it not true that churches are exempt from taxes because they are "charitable organizations" and they just happen to be religious? Well... I was thinking with the whole atheist volunteering thing you all created maybe the RRS could get tax exempt status. My first thought on this was maybe you all don't bring in enough to need it but I remember a while back you got a house donated which is pretty damn big.
Anyway, my idea would be using a slogan like 'keep charity tax free' or 'only good works should be free' or something along those lines. (Okay, so my slogans aren't that great at 7 AM). You could combine people going out and reporting political violations at their local tax-exempt religious organization with the RRS' own quest for tax exemption.
Not only will it show people what the tax-exempt status really means (charity not prayer) but it's sure to gain some attention by annoying a few religious organization and it might even get you all a few more donations!
Beltway Atheists "We're good people, just not god people."
Completely against the door-to-door part, just to say, NOOOO!.
I think you should definitely be giving incentives like you did in the blasphemy challenge, it might not even be much but it will be a little help, everyone loves free stuff. You could even get into contact with people interested in associating their works with the relevant project, like an anti Islamic or pro-free speech book for all those who enter the draw Muhammad, and after a set time there will be voting where the top 5 get a copy of hitchens and some other stuff. A pro-human/womens rights or anti-Islamic book for the burning burka challenge.
What I am -really- interested in though is Exemption Project, because seriously, that shit is fucked up and it would be important for someone to be keeping an eye on tax-free organisations during election season, it would require really devoted people brining cameras and recording devices into church, waiting for someone to slip up, and if some fundies decide to counter and take out a secular group breaking the rules then... great! If they want to take advantage of the rules then they better fucking respect them. I don't know what kind of reward to give to them, but it should be bigger than normal, taking down a church is a great thing.
Oh, and maybe everyone who takes part will get a little icon on the forum, a slither that states what challenge they worked on.-----------------------
I'll get back to you when I think of something worthwhile to say.
With regards to bible recycling...
has anyone looked into if paper recycling actually profitable?
Beltway Atheists "We're good people, just not god people."
I'm going to address all 3 of these ideas:
Is it logistically feasible to make money by recycling paper products? Of course, we don't actually want people to go out and buy Bibles for this project, because that would give money to the Bible makers. Taking Bibles out of hotel rooms would lead to the same thing.
I like this idea, but let's think about what happened when the Danes published their cartoons. I think the people who paid the most were the people in various embasses that got bombed in retribution. Are we willing to put other people at risk to make our statement? If we decide to go with this idea, I think it would be great if we drew picures that wouldn't be offensive if it wasn't Mohamad. Just drawing a stick figure and labling it Mohamad would be enough to piss off the Muslems, and it demonstraits just how irrational they are when it comes to their faith.
Islam - Leaving Islam
Do Muslims in non-Islamist countries care if someone leaves Islam? Would they care if someone converted just to deconvert? I don't know.
Islam - Flushing the Koran
If we buy Korans just to desecrate them we are funding the Koran makers. However, getting a Koran our of the local library and making a video of touching it to my thonged ass would offend without funding. Again, the retaliation might take form in the bombings of innocent embassies, and I don't want to put anyone else in danger for my offences.
I think this one could work, especially if we did it during an election year. Maybe next year we could each attend a random chruch, make a recording of the sermon, and if they endorse a candidate, we've got 'em. I wouldn't mind attending one or two chruches, but to make the most of this campaign, I think we should focus on doing it near the elections.
I've also got my own idea, but it isn't fleshed out yet: campaign for a top-free America. It is unconstitutional to bar women from baring their breasts where men are allowed to do it - gyms, beaches, public parks, etc. Unfortunately, we'd have to get the ACLU in on this in order to fund the legal aspect of the campaign. But look at the bright side: we'd get a ton of attention! We'd offend all kinds of conservatives, and breasts are a sexy issue, in this case, itteraly. Also, it's irrational to outlaw a woman's nipple: it looks exactly like a man's nipple, except maybe bigger. I bet if I got pictures of female nipples and male nipples and cropped and scaled the photos, people wouldn't be able to tell which were which.
Philosophy and Politics
My Foster Kittens
Math/Science help: in Pittsburgh PA or Online
it's my understanding that deconverting from Islam is punishable by death, according to the literal translation of the Koran, even if you were only a Muslim for an hour. granted that in doing so in the USA is probably fairly safe, but it's worth considering that a radical Muslim would take this offense very seriously.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Islam - I do believe that to be a "muslim", all you have to do is recite the creed - "There is no god but allah...", possibly in arabic.
Only muslims are allowed in mecca. I've often thought of sneaking into the great mosque during hajj, and if i'm feeling really lucky, dropping a piece of pork or a star of david on the ground (then high-tailing it out of there, of course).
Other ideas:
1) Starting a fake religion, or just "discovering" a fake set of scriptures (a la mormon), and seeing how many people one can legitimately convert -- just to show how credulous and irrational people can be. The founders of the "religion" would have to agree in advance -- on record -- to reveal the fakery at some designated point, and return any capital accrued through the "religion". Something along the lines of James Randi's Alpha project.
2) Alongside the tax empty issue with religions - hold them to the same standard any other organization is held to. religions offer a "service" and ask for money in return. They should be required to demonstrate the authenticity of such services. For example, the catholic church should be required to prove transubstatiation is actual (prove that a consecrated host is different than a regular piece of bread), inasmuch as they charge for performing the service.
»Why the Bible is Bullshit
As for a video or videos, I think it might be fun to youtube some videos on passages of the bible that are just simply ridiculous (hmmm on second thought the entire bible is ridiculous isn't it).
Oh and it might work for the talmud and quran also.
That fact that you cannot prove god’s non-existence is inconsequential and nugatory because you cannot prove the non-existence of anything.
Although I commend your ongoing creative efforts to keep the RRS in the public eye, I think that the ideas thus far are somewhat questionable, if not downright dangerous.
• The idea of recycling Bibles, then putting the profits towards some sort of Atheist agenda I think would be a failure, for a couple of reasons. First, I don't believe that recycling paper has any sort of profit margin which would allow the person submitting the paper to be recycled to receive money in return, but I could be wrong on that point. Second, while Christians hold the Bible to be sacred, we do not hold it up as a sort of idol unto itself--I don't think that recycling the Bible would be considered a form of desecration--unlike smearing it with dog poo.
• Drawing Mohammed - Not a wise choice, in my opinion. It's one thing to attack Christians and their beliefs, since with rare exceptions Christians do not tend to become violent to the point of murder when their religion is attacked. Protests, pickets, petitions, and even the occasional death threat, but rarely are such threats ever carried out by irate Christians. Not so with Muslims. Even the most mild criticism of Islam or portrayal of Mohammed has been met with murder and mayhem completely disproportionate to the action. Though Sapient makes light of it, there is the very real possibility that a person insulting Islam could find themselves quickly dead, and I certainly wouldn't joke about such matters unless you are truly willing to lay your life on the line to show the irrationality of Islam. Given that the purpose of these "stunts", according to Sapient, is to merely garner more publicity for the RRS, I don't see too many high-level members of this group taking the "Draw Mohammed" challenge. However, if Sapient an Co. want to really get the attention of Muslims, I propose challenge that will surely get them lots of media attention: Draw Mohammed taking it in the ass by a pig. That's guaranteed to make the world stand up and take notice.
• Tax Exempt Status of Churches - Given that the US Supreme Court has routinely upheld that the tax exempt status of Churches is not in any way connected to the Establishment Clause, it is unlikely that any effort to "narc" on churches that dare to support or oppose any given political candidate or position would have any effect. The reference given by Brian for Troy Newman as proof that tax exempt status can be challenged is true to an extent, however Sapient has left out the primary reason why the IRS has been investigating Newman, and it isn't for political endorsement. Newman has been under investigation for money laundering, fraud, and a host of other crimes that have nothing to do with endorsing political candidates from the pulpit.
In my opinion, the best publicity for the RRS is to do what they did with Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort--approach nationally recognized Christian evangelists and apologists, and challenge them to public debate. If you're truly interested in challenging religious thought, then you need to be challenging the greater theological leaders of the Christian world. I fear that if you consistently resort to "stunts" in order to get publicity, fewer and fewer people will take you seriously as any sort of challenge to theism. Just my two cents.
The Saint
Are we supposed to create a project that's supposed to offend people or something?
Rob, did you send this to me before? Someone else has complained about CCP preachers in the past. I would be glad to go down there with a delegation. We'll need someone to hold the video camera, and Rook Kelly and I will gladly teach your annoying preachers a few lessons. By the way, here are two good signs:
"Anyone who says Darwin was a Christian is a liar and a Satanist"
"Anyone who says Darwin was wrong clearly must hate God"
Just some thoughts.
We want to go, we will go. Do you want to help with a few others who can be down there? Feel free to write me in private with your phone number so we can coordinate.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker. Help me get rid of a transferable credit with Southwest Airlines and you'll save $60.
We're still trying to figure that out.
Send a letter to the IRS. (someone want to find the proper form again?) If you find a church getting behind a political candidate, tell the IRS, they just broke their tax laws.
It's rather simple, the IRS does the rest.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker. Help me get rid of a transferable credit with Southwest Airlines and you'll save $60.
Yeah, the IRS LOVES money. If we can get it from a megachurch or two, we'll be happy as pigs in shit.
Imagine how much less of a burden the taxes would be on the average American family if we could just go after Benny Hinn and Pat Robertson and you can understand why I'm salivating at the idea of going after their millions.
As Sapient was asking about the form, it's a form 3949-A. Here's a link:
http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106778,00.html
As the enforcement office is based in California, you're more likely to get people looking at things on the West Coast. Just bear that in mind - as well as the fact that many IRS employees are also Christies.
From your friendly local (and unfortunately seasonal) IRS employee.
"Like Fingerpainting 101, gimme no credit for having class; one thumb on the pulse of the nation, one thumb in your girlfriend's ass; written on, written off, some calling me a joke, I don't think that I'm a sellout but I do enjoy Coke."
-BHG
How about a $10,000 challenge. This won't involve raising money. People could get $100 in ones and cross off the "In God We Trust" and show their cleansed bills on a Youtube video. Just 100 people would need to cleanse 100 dollars each and the challenge can easily be met. Then the people would but the money back into circulation.
This isn't anything new but an effort hasn't really been organized or publicized. When asked about it the history of the slogan can be brought up. It's perfectly legal, the only crime is trying to alter the value of the currency which isn't what's being done.
I like the tax-exempt status removal but I'm biased. Catholics for a Free Choice is also owed some credit for depriving Operation Rescue of their tax status (see Christians are good for something).
Here's the history of the Spirit One church:
http://www.maggotpunks.com/2007/2007-5-01.htm
I'm probably going to give out the Newman Report for free over the e-mail so if you want a copy just e-mail me cause I don't plan on updating it anymore. I can also provide a copy of the IRS complaints I've sent out in case you want an idea of where and what to write.
Vote McCain, he brought back Czechoslovakia and will veto beer. The Real McCain
My complaint was about money laundering and improper use of tax exempt funds (namely to purchase real estate for commercial purposes). The Catholics for a Free Choice complained about a political ad they purchased encouraging people to vote against Senator Kerry.
Vote McCain, he brought back Czechoslovakia and will veto beer. The Real McCain
Brian,
A common misconception is that Churches must file a 501(3)C form with the IRS to obtain tax-exempt status. This is not true. Religious churches, whether Christian or otherwise enjoy automatic tax-exemption, without having to file any forms with the IRS. It is also not true that any church that preaches to endorses or oppose a political candidate violates their tax exempt status. According to the IRS website:
"Whether an organization’s attempts to influence legislation constitute a substantial part of its overall activities is determined on the basis of all the pertinent facts and circumstances in each case. The IRS considers a variety of factors, including the time devoted (by both compensated and volunteer workers) and the expenditures devoted by the organization to the activity, when determining whether the lobbying activity is substantial."
It seems clear that speaking from the pulpit about politics, in and of itself, does not constitute violating tax exempt status. In order to meet the substantive test, a church or other tax-exempt organization must have devoted substantial time and resources to political activism, and I simply don't think that the vast majority of churches engage in this sort of activity on a regular basis.
The Saint
And I fully support the removal of the tax exempt status of any religious organization (or otherwise) that uses that status to commit crimes such as these. I merely wanted it on record that it isn't a violation of the tax exempt status for a priest or preacher to endorse or oppose any particular political candidate or legislation from the pulpit, especially where the tenets of Christian morality would be compromised.
The Saint
I think a campaign to go after the Creation Museum would be kind of cool.
Just a thought.
The IRS disagrees with you about endorsing candidates. Churches may address issues such as war, abortion, stem cell research, slavery in Africa that sort of thing. However they are prohibited by their tax status from endorsing a candidate.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/rr-07-41.pdf
Hence the reason Spirit One Christian Center is under investigation.
Vote McCain, he brought back Czechoslovakia and will veto beer. The Real McCain
Fair enough--the letter-of-the-law reading of the IRS 501(c)3 does indicate that any church or minister that endorses a candidate in an official capacity could lose their tax exempt status. However, a further examination of the gargantuan IRS code reveals that when applying for tax exempt status, the organization must choose one of two options--the Insubstantial Part Test, or the 501(h) Expenditure Test. Under the Insubstantial Part Test (which most Churches fall under), the IRS only requires that "no substantial part of the charity's consist of carrying on propaganda or otherwise attempting to influence legislation" in any given year. Under this statute, Churches may engage in lobbying for or against legislation, so long as they do not devote the substantial amount of their time and resources to said lobbying. When reviewing a churches activities, the IRS takes into consideration a host of factors, including the church's goals, success in achieving those goals, and the amount of time and resources allocated to political activism.
Further complicating the issue are situations where the church in which the "offense" occurred is part of a larger unified religious body. For example, if a Catholic priest were to violate the 501(c)3 tax exemption rules, how exactly is the IRS supposed to proceed? The church building in which the offense occurred is not a stand-alone entity, owned and operated by the offending priest. The church is the property of the Diocese, which is made up of hundreds of such churches, and is under the authority of the Bishop, who is in turn appointed by, and under direct authority of the Pope. Since the offending priest is essentially an agent of Rome, assigned to live and work in property that is only one part of a larger body, how can the IRS revoke the tax exempt status of the entire Catholic Church, due to the offense of this one priest?
The answer is, it can't--primarily because the 501(c)3 code has no teeth. The landmark case of Branch Ministries vs. Rossotti, in which the IRS revoked the tax exempt status of Branch Ministries of Pierce Creek, NY, actually exposed the weakness of the IRS in regards to enforcing its 501(c)3 Code against Churches that violate the statute. In May 2000, the Federal Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia pointed out that under the IRS code, Churches are the only organizations that are not required to apply for federal tax exempt status--Churches, by their very nature, are considered de facto tax exempt. The only reason that a Church may apply is for an advance letter ruling, which is primarily to protect the interests of the charitable donor, since in the event of an IRS audit, it is the donor who must provide proof that the Church is acting in accordance with the 501(c)3 Code.
The Appeals Court also pointed out that losing tax exempt status does not make the Church liable for the payment of taxes. During the appeal, the IRS conceded that "the revocation of the exemption does not convert bona fide donations into income taxable to the Church". In other words, if a Church raised $5 million in charitable donations before violating the exemption, that $5 million is still considered exempt, and not taxable. The Court also noted that it new of no authority to prevent the Church from reapplying for the exemption, provided it renounces future involvement in political campaigns; since Churches are automatically exempt, simply refraining from engaging in political endorsements effectively restores the exemption.
Bottom line is, since revoking tax exempt status does not make a church liable for taxes, and since the status is essentially automatic for churches, (so long as they refrain from violating the exemption), it seems to me that working up a plan to revoke the tax exempt status of Churches would be a lot of effort, with no discernible pay-off for the RRS.
The Saint
Was just on YouTube. I want to say that Kelly's "Burn your Burqa" challenge is a golden idea. I'm behind it
The Enlightenment wounded the beast, but the killing blow has yet to land...