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whirlwind
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Hello

Good Day. 

 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

.

 

 

 


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beardedinlair

beardedinlair wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

...

I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't.    He is God and that He lives is obvious to me.  I feel Him, His Spirit teaches me and has shown signs many times.  There is no doubt.  This cannot be proven...at least as far as I know.  I simply know.  

...


 

Before I read the Bible, (with understanding), I was agnostic.  I wanted to believe but there were too many unanswered questions.  That began when I was thirteen and lasted many, many years.  Just five or six years ago I was finally awakened.  Seeing nature...really seeing a seed grow, tadpoles change into frogs...the miracles that happen around us all the time.  I finally SAW.  At the same time I noticed signs.  I paid attention.  I prayed....He answered.  As the signs happened over and over again I would point them out to my mother.  She saw but shrugged them off as coincidence. 

I know that the Bible isn't hearsay and is evidence but each of us must reach a point before we accept that.   Perhaps the most difficult part is to shake off all the teaching we're received through the years.  Religion can take some serious bites out of folks.  Sometimes it can be a mortal blow.

 

Personal experience. Unprovable personal experience. What I have found is that people using faith without evidence leads to evil actions. (again, see my introduction) My personal experience is a sign to me that faith without proof, verifiable proof that can't be recanted is evil. You believing in God without being able to show the evidence means that your belief in God is evil, or it could lead to evil actions.

The Bible was written by men. Divine intervention or not, they filtered it through their own faulty awareness. If you concede that Jesus is the only perfect man, then imperfect men wrote the bible, leading to an imperfect bible. Not to be trusted any more than any other personal experience.

 

 

What can I offer you except "personal experience?"  It is evident to me so what I see, feel, understand and know is proof.  All I can do with that proof is tell it to you.  What do you expect....Jesus to write an affadvit and have it notorized?  Would that be enough?  Of course not.  I can tell you events that happened but they are personal events...would you believe them?  Probably not. 

 

What you seek is for Him to stand in front of you and show you His wounds...as did Thomas.  I can't provide that for you.

 

 

.


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whirlwind wrote:BobSpence1

whirlwind wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

 

 

 

Religion does take ownership....perhaps then it would be best to stay away from religion?

 

The Words are not outdated.  The Words are truth and life.

 

Yes they are outdated, just because they are still popular doesn't mean they are true. Your bible is just as outdated as the hieroglyphics depicting Ra the sun god.

Your book is just a book of myth. A poorly written book written by ignorant people who had no clue as to what the nature of reality was.

Here is what you are doing,

You, "The moon is made of cheese, this book says so"

Me, "No, the moon is not made of cheese"

Belief that the earth was flat was widely popular in past human history, we now know that is not true.

There is no such thing as an invisible magical puppeteer no matter how badly you want such a critter to be real.

What would be so scary to you if you found out that this was all there is?

Oh, and "tadpoles turning into frogs" thats your "evidence"? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

That statement alone DEMONSTRATES you do not have the debate skills to compete with us at all.

I was hoping for something more deep with meat on it, but you are WAY out of your league here. We have debated much more educated theists than you.

I really would suggest you take some time outside this website doing some hardcore research, and not just on Christianity, but biology and evolution too, and refrain from posting until you come back with better ammo.

You are getting your clock cleaned.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


beardedinlair
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whirlwind wrote:What can I

whirlwind wrote:

What can I offer you except "personal experience?"  It is evident to me so what I see, feel, understand and know is proof.  All I can do with that proof is tell it to you.  What do you expect....Jesus to write an affadvit and have it notorized?  Would that be enough?  Of course not.  I can tell you events that happened but they are personal events...would you believe them?  Probably not. 

 

What you seek is for Him to stand in front of you and show you His wounds...as did Thomas.  I can't provide that for you.

Taking a point to a silly extreme does not invalidate the original point.

Was it provided for you? Did you put your finger in the wounds? Everyone has personal experiences. I have ghost stories.

My point is if you take the semantics, the bible, and God out of the equation, you still have what you see, feel, and understand. What you "know" is what you've been told, or read.

You don't need to assign it to any theism for the experience to be any more or less real.


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whirlwind wrote:What you

whirlwind wrote:

What you seek is for Him to stand in front of you and show you His wounds...as did Thomas.  I can't provide that for you.

 

That would work for me.  Or, perhaps angels writing with flaming swords - CJ, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

Otherwise, all the faith in the world is just wishful thinking.  I understand wanting for a god/s/dess to be true.  I understand wanting someone, anyone, to love you just the way you are, warts and all.  I understand wanting a rhyme, a reason, a purpose.  And you know, you just have to love yourself the way you are and you have to find your own purpose.

What, god/s/dess texts you every day with an update on your personal purpose in life project list?  I don't think so.  I think you are just as much in the dark as any atheist.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


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whirlwind wrote: I hope

whirlwind wrote:
I hope there will be interesting discussions.

Sure.

Let's hear your most interesting thoughts...

 

whirlwind wrote:
You don't know the "real Jesus" yet. 

He is real.  You are allowing yourself to be mislead by myth, by twisted truths.
The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.
Why do I believe atheism is a religion?  I don't know if I can answer that...I just do.

Just know, they are not myths or fables.
The Words are not outdated.  The Words are truth and life.
The "talking snake" is the serpent...Satan.  He's still hissing in ears today.

 

God created DNA.

I cannot prove God exists....

The Messiah did institute God's kingdom on earth.  I am of that kingdom now. 

 

Science and the Bible should agree.  Where it doesn't either means science was wrong

I know that the Bible isn't hearsay 

You're not talking to 6 yrs olds.

You're going to have to switch it up a little...

whirlwind wrote:
I hope there will be interesting discussions.

A hope is all you've got, apparently.

Maybe by the time you grow some hair on your balls, you'll begin to be able to contemplate the universe from a more mature and analytical perspective.

In the meantime, don't let Mommy and Daddy catch you on the computer talking to evil atheists, when you should be studying for how to live trapped inside a 2000 yr old comic book...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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whirlwind wrote:BobSpence1

whirlwind wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

 

Religion does take ownership....perhaps then it would be best to stay away from religion?

The Words are not outdated.  The Words are truth and life.

Religion and related belief systems, such as what you seem to be portraying here as yours, do not, indeed cannot, 'own' our basic human nature - but they TRY to treat it as evidence of a divine presence, as our connection with this imaginary being, with nothing more than wishful thinking and intuition to 'justify' that idea, which have zero evidentiary value.

I have had several 'spiritual' experiences, but with zero God content, although with immensely uplifting and inspiring effects. I will not assert that they were superior in any way to what you may have felt, but then you would have no cause to claim yours were 'better' or more authentic than mine. They are part of the way our minds react under certain conditions. I also would not claim such experiences as justification for my world-view, I just wish to make that point that such experiences are not exclusive to those with some kind of God belief.

We all interpret such experiences thru the filter of our own point of view.

The claims of the bible are quite definitely outdated. They were written by people who had nothing remotely matching current understanding of all aspects of Life and the Universe, and morality, and human nature.

You have no basis for claiming the truth of the bible claims, which would have to come from sources outside, beyond, the Bible itself, and beyond your own internal experiences. Your claimed personal reasons would justify almost every vaguely similar belief system, every religion, on earth, based on the claims of many of the followers. Such experiences are incredibly common - they are not special.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Brian37 wrote:Yes they are

Brian37 wrote:

Yes they are outdated, just because they are still popular doesn't mean they are true. Your bible is just as outdated as the hieroglyphics depicting Ra the sun god.

Your book is just a book of myth. A poorly written book written by ignorant people who had no clue as to what the nature of reality was.

Here is what you are doing,

You, "The moon is made of cheese, this book says so"

Me, "No, the moon is not made of cheese"

Belief that the earth was flat was widely popular in past human history, we now know that is not true.

There is no such thing as an invisible magical puppeteer no matter how badly you want such a critter to be real.

What would be so scary to you if you found out that this was all there is?

Oh, and "tadpoles turning into frogs" thats your "evidence"? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

That statement alone DEMONSTRATES you do not have the debate skills to compete with us at all.

I was hoping for something more deep with meat on it, but you are WAY out of your league here. We have debated much more educated theists than you.

I really would suggest you take some time outside this website doing some hardcore research, and not just on Christianity, but biology and evolution too, and refrain from posting until you come back with better ammo.

You are getting your clock cleaned.

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of His Word isn't about someone having their clocks cleaned Brian.  Nor is it about debating skills.  It is about finding truth.  I have found it and continue to search for deeper truths.  

 

 

.


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whirlwind wrote:Discussion

whirlwind wrote:

Discussion of His Word isn't about someone having their clocks cleaned Brian.  Nor is it about debating skills.  It is about finding truth.  I have found it and continue to search for deeper truths.  

I thought you equate 'truth' with nirvana.  How could there be deeper truth? What if you dig deeper and discover that what you thought of as 'truth' is just a naked assertion? 

I would be wary of skeptical inquiry if I were in your position.  Once you establish a fix point of reference in the universe, what else is there?  You have an objective 'truth' there can be nothing deeper.  You can apply that truth to anything.  Let me give a quick example.  

Joe Blow is a good person, he leads a good life, doesn't hurt anyone, donates blood and feeds the homeless on the weekends.  Has a family and raises his children to care for others and do no harm.  Joe Blow doesn't believe in god, and has no time for all that nonsense.  Assuming your god exists, when Joe Blow dies, will he go to heaven or hell?

As an atheist I can debate this point and come up with a subjective answer where I may send him to heaven or hell depending on how I rate loyalty on my moral compass.  You on the other hand, have nothing to debate about, you don't need to seek a 'deeper truth', you, my lucky friend, have all the answers in front of you.  Any good Calvinist will tell you that this poor guy will burn in hell for eternity.  Anyone following the bible will tell you the same if they were being consistent and 'truthful' (pun intended).  

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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beardedinlair

beardedinlair wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

What can I offer you except "personal experience?"  It is evident to me so what I see, feel, understand and know is proof.  All I can do with that proof is tell it to you.  What do you expect....Jesus to write an affadvit and have it notorized?  Would that be enough?  Of course not.  I can tell you events that happened but they are personal events...would you believe them?  Probably not. 

 

What you seek is for Him to stand in front of you and show you His wounds...as did Thomas.  I can't provide that for you.

Taking a point to a silly extreme does not invalidate the original point.

Was it provided for you? Did you put your finger in the wounds? Everyone has personal experiences. I have ghost stories.

 

 

I had questions with no answers so I couldn't believe.  In other words I was professing myself to be wise and became a fool [Romans 1:22].  Then He began to awaken me.  I paid attention and let go of my ego...as much as I could for it is an ongoing process.  I believed without the answers and now....He provides the answers.  I had to make the step before receiving the benefit.   

 

1 Corinthians 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

So no, I didn't put my fingers in the wounds but I did recognize the signs He gave.  The more I recognized them the more open my eyes were to proof all around us. 

 

Quote:

My point is if you take the semantics, the bible, and God out of the equation, you still have what you see, feel, and understand. What you "know" is what you've been told, or read.

You don't need to assign it to any theism for the experience to be any more or less real.

 

 

God cannot be taken out of the equation.  He is why we see, feel and understand. 

 

 

.

 


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beardedinlair

beardedinlair wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

What can I offer you except "personal experience?"  It is evident to me so what I see, feel, understand and know is proof.  All I can do with that proof is tell it to you.  What do you expect....Jesus to write an affadvit and have it notorized?  Would that be enough?  Of course not.  I can tell you events that happened but they are personal events...would you believe them?  Probably not. 

 

What you seek is for Him to stand in front of you and show you His wounds...as did Thomas.  I can't provide that for you.

Taking a point to a silly extreme does not invalidate the original point.

Was it provided for you? Did you put your finger in the wounds? Everyone has personal experiences. I have ghost stories.

My point is if you take the semantics, the bible, and God out of the equation, you still have what you see, feel, and understand. What you "know" is what you've been told, or read.

You don't need to assign it to any theism for the experience to be any more or less real.

Is whirlwind the A.I. program you mentioned earlier? you better not be screwing with us lol.  If so, you need to increase the processing power, this thing is pretty boring. Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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cj wrote:whirlwind

cj wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

What you seek is for Him to stand in front of you and show you His wounds...as did Thomas.  I can't provide that for you.

 

That would work for me.  Or, perhaps angels writing with flaming swords - CJ, GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

 

 

Angels are writing with flaming swords.  You need only see....

 

Jeremiah 23:29  Is not My word like as a fire?  saith the LORD:  and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

 

 

Quote:
Otherwise, all the faith in the world is just wishful thinking.  I understand wanting for a god/s/dess to be true.  I understand wanting someone, anyone, to love you just the way you are, warts and all.  I understand wanting a rhyme, a reason, a purpose.  And you know, you just have to love yourself the way you are and you have to find your own purpose.

What, god/s/dess texts you every day with an update on your personal purpose in life project list?  I don't think so.  I think you are just as much in the dark as any atheist.

 

 

 

 I am a child of Light.  I left the darkness behind.

 

 

.


whirlwind
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BobSpence1 wrote:whirlwind

BobSpence1 wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

 

Religion does take ownership....perhaps then it would be best to stay away from religion?

The Words are not outdated.  The Words are truth and life.

Religion and related belief systems, such as what you seem to be portraying here as yours, do not, indeed cannot, 'own' our basic human nature - but they TRY to treat it as evidence of a divine presence, as our connection with this imaginary being, with nothing more than wishful thinking and intuition to 'justify' that idea, which have zero evidentiary value.

 

 

Religions may wish to own you so why allow it? 

There is a Divine Presence and we are connected. Not simply connected but...we are One with Him when we believe and love.

 

 

Quote:
 

I have had several 'spiritual' experiences, but with zero God content, although with immensely uplifting and inspiring effects. I will not assert that they were superior in any way to what you may have felt, but then you would have no cause to claim yours were 'better' or more authentic than mine. They are part of the way our minds react under certain conditions. I also would not claim such experiences as justification for my world-view, I just wish to make that point that such experiences are not exclusive to those with some kind of God belief.

We all interpret such experiences thru the filter of our own point of view.

 

 

I find that fascinating.  You know you have had spiritual experiences and still negate spirit somehow?  Usually people simply explain away experiences, giving no credence to spirit. 

 

Quote:
The claims of the bible are quite definitely outdated. They were written by people who had nothing remotely matching current understanding of all aspects of Life and the  Universe, and morality, and human nature.

You have no basis for claiming the truth of the bible claims, which would have to come from sources outside, beyond, the Bible itself, and beyond your own internal experiences. Your claimed personal reasons would justify almost every vaguely similar belief system, every religion, on earth, based on the claims of many of the followers. Such experiences are incredibly common - they are not special.

 

Outdated?  Part of the wonder of the Bible is that it is for all times, all people.  It isn't outdated at all. 

 

I do have a basis to claim truth.  His Spirit teaches me as it does others that are of His One body, that "abide in Him."

 

1 Corinthians 2:13-14  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  but the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of god:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideeth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:  but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

 

 

.

 


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Ktulu wrote:whirlwind

sorry....wrong button pushed


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Ktulu wrote:whirlwind

Ktulu wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Discussion of His Word isn't about someone having their clocks cleaned Brian.  Nor is it about debating skills.  It is about finding truth.  I have found it and continue to search for deeper truths.  

I thought you equate 'truth' with nirvana.  How could there be deeper truth? What if you dig deeper and discover that what you thought of as 'truth' is just a naked assertion? 

 

 

The Bible isn't a book to be picked up, read and then set aside.  It's not just another story whether you consider it to be fiction or history.  It lives.  As we mature His Spirit reveals deeper truths for us to understand.  Jesus tells us...

 

John 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

 

You can read a passage one week....refer to it later and see new things.  He knows when we are ready to understand. 

 

 

Quote:
I would be wary of skeptical inquiry if I were in your position.  Once you establish a fix point of reference in the universe, what else is there?  You have an objective 'truth' there can be nothing deeper.  You can apply that truth to anything.  Let me give a quick example.  

Joe Blow is a good person, he leads a good life, doesn't hurt anyone, donates blood and feeds the homeless on the weekends.  Has a family and raises his children to care for others and do no harm.  Joe Blow doesn't believe in god, and has no time for all that nonsense.  Assuming your god exists, when Joe Blow dies, will he go to heaven or hell?

 

 

He won't go to hell if he is a righteous man but he won't be with Christ.  He will be taught during the millennium, with no influence from Satan....tested at it's end as we will be tested at the end of this age and then....the final decision/judgment is given on Joe Blow's life.  If it's still "nonsense" to him then he has made his decision and chosen wrongly.

 

 

Quote:

As an atheist I can debate this point and come up with a subjective answer where I may send him to heaven or hell depending on how I rate loyalty on my moral compass.  You on the other hand, have nothing to debate about, you don't need to seek a 'deeper truth', you, my lucky friend, have all the answers in front of you.  Any good Calvinist will tell you that this poor guy will burn in hell for eternity.  Anyone following the bible will tell you the same if they were being consistent and 'truthful' (pun intended).  

 

 

Perhaps the "good Calvinist" needs to read with understanding. 

 

 

 

.


pauljohntheskeptic
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Assertions of Beliefs are not evidence

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

It was Divinely inspired by God over a long, long period and penned by different men which, to my mind...lets me know there was only One author.

 

The writing that has been called the Bible can't even be universally agreed upon as to what should be included, translations, or interpretations.

That you say you are a Christian indicates you reject the interpretations of the originators of the Bible, the Jews.

 

Why do you say that?  I reject that those of the Jewish faith don't accept Christ as the fulfillment of what was to be.  I certainly don't reject the Old Testament. 

As you see man is born with original sin requiring the Jesus to die as a sacrifice you are in opposition to Jewish belief from the start.

Jews consider man to be born with a pure soul and can return it to the god in the same condition.

 

What men, whether Jewish or not, believe has no bearing on what is written.  Being Jewish or Christian doesn't make one correct or incorrect. 

It however creates issues for those that morph the original belief system into something other than was propagated for centuries. It is on the Christian to explicitly and meticulously detail where the originators of the god belief in Yahweh have erred. Assertions that you make are no more than your personal views without a detailed analysis of Hebrew interpretations. That their beliefs are also assertions is another story.  I'd rather see believers as Jews not Christians, as they don't go door to door promoting their myths as y'all.

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So why do you know more than those that created the stories?

  I don't follow.

Is it your blinders?

From the start the Jews do not require the god to kill part of himself to redeem them from an original sin, see above.

The mashiach, what you call a messiah was considered to be the one to institute the god's kingdom on the Earth. The Jesus does not meet any of their requirements or prophecies. The prophecies used most generally by Christians are not considered to be prophecies related to the Jewish mashiach. If you'd like to examine this in detail, list the OT scriptures you consider to be related prophecies and why? I'll be glad to give you the Jewish interpretations of the same quotes.

 

 

The Messiah did institute God's kingdom on earth.  I am of that kingdom now. 

 Psalm 22 tells of the crucifixion of Jesus.  

 

I asked y'all to provide a list of scriptures indicating the Jesus was the mashiach and y'all provide only the weak King David Psalm.

If the Jesus instituted the Kingdom of the god on the Earth, how did he meet the following Jewish prophecies?

1- Build the 3rd temple - Ezekiel 37:26-28, Micah 4:1

2-Bring all the Jews back to Israel - Isaiah 43:5-6

3-Institute world peace ending all wars, hate, disease etc - Isaiah 2:4

4-The god of the Jews will become the only god of the Earth with all people recognizing the god as the One - Zechariah 14:9

 

Please use a Hebrew Bible for the following quotes, such as the JPS, see all of the following for understanding:

Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34, Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5, 

See - http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus#2

http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html

http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/id17.html

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/index.html

http://ajewforjudaism.wordpress.com/

http://www.ouradio.org/

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org.au/home

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

In regards to Psalm 22:

This is David whining about his own life if the mythical king was really the writer. All of the text describes issues David has and is not prophecy of the Jesus. The Jews do not see this as prophecy at all in regard to the mashiach.

 

whirlwind wrote:
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

As to if it was a group of 40 guys that created the stories or 5000 from myths, legends and storytelling is hard to transcend it into the god was the author.

The writing has Canaanite myths, Sumerian myths, and Egyptian myths rewritten into it, to fit the developing god myths of the people of Judah. The myths and stories of these other cultures are thousands of years older than the god myths of the Hebrews and Jews. The oldest storytelling from the Jews is found in the DSS, dated to the 2nd century BCE at best. While Sumerian stories date to 3500 BCE, as original documents.

  Because the Sumerians had a written language before the Adamic line doesn't mean the history, as written in the Torah, didn't happen before that of the Sumerians...just written later. 

 

Keep telling your self that. This is more of, I know he's real, he's real.

If the god of the Hebrews was anywhere to be found before the time of Abraham's departure from the homeland of the Moon god Sin, please indicate where. One would think something would exist besides the Canaanite versions of El and Yahweh also sometimes know as Ba'al and his/their wife Ashtoret or Asherah as part of their pantheon which had basis in the gods of Sumer.

 He is real.  You are allowing yourself to be mislead by myth, by twisted truths. 

 

Your assertion does not support that your god is real any more than the writing of the Sumerians proves their gods were real. You are the one buying into myths, legends and deception.

whirlwind wrote:
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

 

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

It is more a book of storytelling with legends and fables.

Pick any OT story and present your view for criticism.

  

Why don't you choose?  I might be able to answer....I might not.  Just know, they are not myths or fables.

Let's discuss the supposed invasion of Palestine by Joshua.

Start with the supposed destruction of Jericho and Ai.

There is also a very long thread on all of the OT in this thread - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279 and we have already discussed this there, so you can go see my views on it there. We are currently at the end of 1 Samuel. If you hang out for a few years, we may get to the end of the OT by then.

  

Why do you see the destruction of Jericho as being "supposed?" 

  

Archealogy does not support there was an invasion of Canaan. Jericho had no walls to be "blown down". Ai was a ruin for over a thousand years by the supposed time of the Hebrew invasion.

Additionally, there is nothing that substantiates nearly 2 million people wandered the desert for 40 years.

You obviously did not visit the thread I gave you to see my views. If you won't do research, we are not going to have any kind of "interesting discussions".

 

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

 

There are what we humans consider problems in the Bible and problems are to be resolved.  Keep looking.

What is to be resolved? That 3 men can walk into a furnace and live? That snakes and donkeys talk?

Not to mention the mythical invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews, which has no support and countless problems.

 

How did those three men live?  Was it literally or spiritually?  Was the fire literal fire or deception? 

The writings of Daniel are from the 2nd century BCE written during the Jewish Wars against Antiochus IV.

For a very, very detailed discussion on this see this thread - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20506 There are well over 1000 posts in it and we have reached Daniel 11 just recently. The Daniel discussion begins somewhere around page 5 or 6.

My view is the book of Daniel was written for the purpose of analogy, using storytelling and fiction to get across the author's intent to the Jews, that the god would see to it that they won out in the end against the Seleucids and Antiochus. If you wish to discuss this content, go to that thread, I imagine that Gramps would appreciate your help by now as he's been floundering lately.

 

whirlwind wrote:
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

The "talking snake" is the serpent...Satan.  He's still hissing in ears today. 

The serpent in Genesis is once again nothing but a snake in Judaism, not the god's servant prosecutor angel the Satan.

So you now have another disagreement with Jews that you have expressed.

As I always ask those that claim Satan warred with the god and fell with a number of angels, where exactly is this described in the OT. Not the NT Revelation account, as that was written far far after the supposed Torah account in Genesis regarding the Adam and Eve characters. Where in the OT is the fall of the angels and the Satan?

*edit fixed a quote problem*

 

 

If those of the Jewish faith believe the serpent was a talking snake then I am amazed and very disappointed. 

 

When we are first introduced to Satan in the garden he is already in his fallen state.  When did that happen?    In [Gen.6] we're shown fallen angels. 

I mentioned this before, Satan is not one of the "watchers" or "sons of god" in Genesis 6. A more detailed account is 1 Enoch. The leader of this group is not the god's servant the Satan. In any event, these angels come after the creation of the Adam and the Eve characters when man has already populated the Earth. It is supposedly in the time of Enoch. The Genesis 6 event is one of the main reasons the god destroys the Earth with the mythical world-wide flood.

All you are doing is making assertions with no evidence. If this is your method, we are done. If y'all can't bring something to support your claims. it is not an interesting discussion and is just you saying, "I know he's real, he's real....."

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


BobSpence
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whirlwind wrote:BobSpence1

whirlwind wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

Religion does take ownership....perhaps then it would be best to stay away from religion?

The Words are not outdated.  The Words are truth and life.

Religion and related belief systems, such as what you seem to be portraying here as yours, do not, indeed cannot, 'own' our basic human nature - but they TRY to treat it as evidence of a divine presence, as our connection with this imaginary being, with nothing more than wishful thinking and intuition to 'justify' that idea, which have zero evidentiary value.

Religions may wish to own you so why allow it? 

I was not referring to Religions' wishing to own me, but rather the desire of believers to claim for their own the basic heritage of all humans, preceding religion.

Quote:

There is a Divine Presence and we are connected. Not simply connected but...we are One with Him when we believe and love.

Only in your personal opinion and assessment, not as established fact. If He exists, He does not deserve Love.

Quote:
 

Quote:

I have had several 'spiritual' experiences, but with zero God content, although with immensely uplifting and inspiring effects. I will not assert that they were superior in any way to what you may have felt, but then you would have no cause to claim yours were 'better' or more authentic than mine. They are part of the way our minds react under certain conditions. I also would not claim such experiences as justification for my world-view, I just wish to make that point that such experiences are not exclusive to those with some kind of God belief.

We all interpret such experiences thru the filter of our own point of view.

 

I find that fascinating.  You know you have had spiritual experiences and still negate spirit somehow?  Usually people simply explain away experiences, giving no credence to spirit. 

You do seem to be blind to what I am trying to convey to you.

I negate the Religious interpretation of the basic human experience, which is not dependent on religious beliefs. The emotions and feelings we all experience are real, it is the interpretation, the understanding of how they arise, that we disagree on. 

The feelings are not manifestations of an independent 'soul' or 'spirit', to me. It is a problem with using the word 'spiritual', because religion has pre-empted the more general usage of the word, to refer to a particular class of feelings/experiences.

Quote:

Quote:
The claims of the bible are quite definitely outdated. They were written by people who had nothing remotely matching current understanding of all aspects of Life and the  Universe, and morality, and human nature.

You have no basis for claiming the truth of the bible claims, which would have to come from sources outside, beyond, the Bible itself, and beyond your own internal experiences. Your claimed personal reasons would justify almost every vaguely similar belief system, every religion, on earth, based on the claims of many of the followers. Such experiences are incredibly common - they are not special.

Outdated?  Part of the wonder of the Bible is that it is for all times, all people.  It isn't outdated at all. 

It holds no wonder to me. There are works of literature, and discourses on the nature of 'Life, the Universe, and Everything', which I do regard with wonder. The words and works of Shakespeare, and of Carl Sagan, spring to mind, each showing vastly more insight into the human condition, and the nature of the Universe, repectively, than anything in the Bible.

It is completely outdated.

Quote:

I do have a basis to claim truth.  His Spirit teaches me as it does others that are of His One body, that "abide in Him." 

1 Corinthians 2:13-14  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  but the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of god:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideeth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:  but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him

No you don't. You are describing your interpretation of purely subjective experiences, and then trying to justify them by pointless references to claims in the Bible.

Your belief system is groundless.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


Brian37
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whirlwind wrote:Brian37

whirlwind wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Yes they are outdated, just because they are still popular doesn't mean they are true. Your bible is just as outdated as the hieroglyphics depicting Ra the sun god.

Your book is just a book of myth. A poorly written book written by ignorant people who had no clue as to what the nature of reality was.

Here is what you are doing,

You, "The moon is made of cheese, this book says so"

Me, "No, the moon is not made of cheese"

Belief that the earth was flat was widely popular in past human history, we now know that is not true.

There is no such thing as an invisible magical puppeteer no matter how badly you want such a critter to be real.

What would be so scary to you if you found out that this was all there is?

Oh, and "tadpoles turning into frogs" thats your "evidence"? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

That statement alone DEMONSTRATES you do not have the debate skills to compete with us at all.

I was hoping for something more deep with meat on it, but you are WAY out of your league here. We have debated much more educated theists than you.

I really would suggest you take some time outside this website doing some hardcore research, and not just on Christianity, but biology and evolution too, and refrain from posting until you come back with better ammo.

You are getting your clock cleaned.

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of His Word isn't about someone having their clocks cleaned Brian.  Nor is it about debating skills.  It is about finding truth.  I have found it and continue to search for deeper truths.  

 

 

.

We don't "discuss" we debate, and you are not even "discussing" you are selling. We are not potential buyers of the product you call the bible. Making naked assertions and using circular reasoning is hardly impressive to us.

7 billion people on this planet and you found the truth. You know what claims are like don't you? Claims are like what you sit on, everyone has one.

"His word" is merely what you claim, not what you can prove. Writing something and putting a book together doesn't make something true. Otherwise little boys could fly because the book Peter Pan is a real book.

Seriously, I thought you understood that we were going to knock your claims around. It seems to me that has not sunk in because you are not debating but merely trying to sell us something.

"His word"

"Allah's word"

"Yahweh's word"

All the same to us. Just a bunch of people trying to convince themselves that a magical invisible super brain with magical super powers exists. You might as well try to convince us Klingons are real.

Just admit you like what you believe but don't try to pretend you have any testable falsifiable independently reviewed evidence for your claims. You don't.

 

 

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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beardedinlair
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No, this is not the a.i. The

No, this is not the a.i. The a.i. is much smarter than this guy. It doesn't consider any part of the text more important than any other, so you can actually find startling conclusions, not just the generic stuff this guy is spouting.