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whirlwind
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Hello

Good Day. 

 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

.

 

 

 


Brian37
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Quote:God isn't a super hero

Quote:
God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

Thanks for the update. I know that YOU dont believe that. I am saying that when you compare ANY myth, including ones you don't buy, to comic books, there is no difference.

Claiming that virgins can pop out a baby with no second set of DNA is the same to me as claiming superman can stop bullets with his chest. Claiming that adults pop out of dirt is no different to me than claiming that Wonder Woman has a magic rope.

BOTH require suspension of skepticism. The only difference is degree of skepticism. You can enjoy a superman movie without believing that superman can stop bullets with his chest. You cannot enjoy a virgin birth story without literally believing it.

MY POINT IS you blindly accept one fantastic claim while rightfully rejecting another for the mere story it is. BUT BOTH your myth and the comic book make fantastic claims.

Thor making lightening was once a literal belief. The sun being a god was once a literal belief. I see no difference between the myths and comic books you RIGHTFULLY reject for clearly obvious reasons, and your own claims as well.

The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more myth than you do.

 

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pauljohntheskeptic
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whirlwind wrote:  My visit

whirlwind wrote:

 

 My visit here isn't an attack.   As a Christian...what else would I have to present except His Word? 

I realize you were and no longer are "a Christian" but, there is always hope you will see truth.

What I asked if your use of Bible quotes was your plan of attack, means your method of approach. How is that suggesting you are attacking?

 

The words in the Bible are words that have as much validity as a discussion in regards to Enki, Anu and Enlil.

The truth that you and other believers promote based in storytelling and legends that have no basis in reality?

Don't hold your breath, at least not for long.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


whirlwind
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TGBaker wrote: I don't

TGBaker wrote:

 I don't think that many of us who are atheists would acept a category of spiritual at least in a supernatural of Cartesian dualistic sense.  The universe seems to be a monism. The idea of spirit goes back to prehistoric times when "ruach", Hebrew fro breath, wind and spirit; pneuma New Testament Greek for breath, wind air spirit were all viewed the same. The ancients believed in four elements and that which could not be seen but felt nonetheless was considered  that which left the body at death. And it does but it is only air. We find similar originations from Indo-Eurpean langauge such as beu meaning breath which became our word "be". Isha breath becomes is. Our language is contains these ancient fossils that flavor our speech unconciously with a primitive physics and metaphysics that are no longer warranted. That we "sin" Greek New Testament harmatia is an old archers term that simply means the missing of the mark.  That it is specialized with a mythic fall and inherited evil ot propensity to evil (depending on which of the 30,000 variations of Chrisitian systems or denomination) simply reflects a superstitious belief that bad things happen to you because you screwed up.  A secular missing of the mark is simply not actively decreasing suffering in this world whther your own, your family of society.

 

 

Whether or not one accepts the category of spiritual has no bearing on there being a category of spiritual. 

 

The ruach, the spirit of life breathed into Adam formed a living soul.  Until that time mankind lived in walking, talking, breathing flesh bodies but they were not spiritually alive.  Adam was the first living soul.

 

 

 

 

 


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i have questions, not meant

i have questions, not meant as an attack on your faith. most of my questions fall in this category by the way. i am agnostic. if you can honestly prove to me that God exists, I will jump on your  bandwagon. You got a chance with me.

what would you have called yourself before Christ was born? Would you have been Led to go to the Jews and beg them to let you be Jewish? Same type of question, what would you have been before the bible was written?

What was God to you before you read the Bible? You admit you were aware, and the bible was confirmation?

Can you define God without the bible? Define for me God without using scripture please. You sort of say you can have god without the bible.

 

also: if you say i have to take things on faith and no evidence, i will refer you to my own introduction. and i do not find the bible acceptable as evidence. hearsay and circumstantial.


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TGBaker wrote:whirlwind

TGBaker wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 

 It works fine. My degrees are in theology and Bible. I have a specialization in the historical jesus.  Morality as you hinted from Paul is quite natural. As far as those things being hard to understand. They aren't really...they just do not correspond to the contemporary idea of a Judeo-Christian god. Those things are quite consistant with the barbaric Yahweh and Eloistic origins of the Western concepts of theism. The texts state what they state and show what they show.  Nothing hard from our position but does not correspond to theism very well does it. So perhaps it is hard for you to understand from your presuppositions and beliefs.

 

I congratulate you on your degrees however it shows only that you are intelligent enough to read and pass exams.   I do not mean that in an unkind way.  Reading something and understanding something are not the same.  I read the Bible three times and never got diddly out of it.  Now...I see.

 

 

  • 11 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I understand it and even understand your belief system and faith since I once had it. However a non-biased study of the origins of the Bible, its culture and the obvious reworking of the gospels over  and over again to accomadate change in Christology is why I finally rejected "OUR" faith.  I studied under several New Testament scholars since my focus wass the "real" historical Jesus. I focused on the culture of 160 BCE to the counsel of Nicea, Church History and can tell you with certainty that the Christian faith ( whichever one you want to pick ) was recast and fabricaated over and over again. There was never one belief system from shortly after Jesus's death. Jesus was simply  a follower of John the Baptist and began a similar eschatological ministry after the Baptist was arrested.  ANd to finish you simply use the illegitimate arrogance of your on faith in the sited scripture which is not evidentiary and simply self serving mumbo-jumbo. I am right because  I am from god. I am from god because I am inerrant scripture completely circular and meaningless. Secondly the errors and contradictions of scripture are plentiful and even recognized and discussed inmany seminaries but buffered and kept from laity.

 

As some believe "errors and contradictions of scripture" are "kept from laity," I assure you....the knowledge of God is kept from those who treat His Words as myth.

 

  • John 12:37-40  But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him:  That the saying of Esias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, ":Lord, who hath believed our report?  and to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?"  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart:  that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

 

You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

 

 

 

.

 


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Quote:Whether or not one

Quote:
Whether or not one accepts the category of spiritual has no bearing on there being a category of spiritual.

For that to be true you have to first establish that the spiritual is a reality. No one in human history has done that, much less a polytheist or monotheistic god by any NAME.

God/spirit both rely on the credulity that thinking can happen outside a material process.

Go work on getting "spirit theory" as solid as DNA and you will have something. I will hold my breath for your evidence as long as I do for claims of Big Foot and Ouija Boards.

Good luck with that. I am sure if you accomplish that you will win the Nobel Prize.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

It was Divinely inspired by God over a long, long period and penned by different men which, to my mind...lets me know there was only One author.

The writing that has been called the Bible can't even be universally agreed upon as to what should be included, translations, or interpretations.

That you say you are a Christian indicates you reject the interpretations of the originators of the Bible, the Jews.

 

 

Why do you say that?  I reject that those of the Jewish faith don't accept Christ as the fulfillment of what was to be.  I certainly don't reject the Old Testament.

 

Quote:

So why do you know more than those that created the stories?

 

 

I don't follow.

 

 

Quote:
As to if it was a group of 40 guys that created the stories or 5000 from myths, legends and storytelling is hard to transcend it into the god was the author.

The writing has Canaanite myths, Sumerian myths, and Egyptian myths rewritten into it, to fit the developing god myths of the people of Judah. The myths and stories of these other cultures are thousands of years older than the god myths of the Hebrews and Jews. The oldest storytelling from the Jews is found in the DSS, dated to the 2nd century BCE at best. While Sumerian stories date to 3500 BCE, as original documents.

 

 

Because the Sumerians had a written language before the Adamic line doesn't mean the history, as written in the Torah, didn't happen before that of the Sumerians...just written later. 

 

 

Quote:
whirlwind wrote:
 

God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

It is more a book of storytelling with legends and fables.

Pick any OT story and present your view for criticism.

 

 

Why don't you choose?  I might be able to answer....I might not.  Just know, they are not myths or fables.

 

 

Quote:
whirlwind wrote:
 

 

There are what we humans consider problems in the Bible and problems are to be resolved.  Keep looking.

What is to be resolved? That 3 men can walk into a furnace and live? That snakes and donkeys talk?

Not to mention the mythical invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews, which has no support and countless problems.

 

 

How did those three men live?  Was it literally or spiritually?  Was the fire literal fire or deception?  The "talking snake" is the serpent...Satan.  He's still hissing in ears today.

 

 

.


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Brian37 wrote:Earlier you

Brian37 wrote:

Earlier you said that childlike ignorance might be the way it should be. Now learning is important?

 

 

No Brian, I said a childlike belief was the beginning.  Learning is important for knowledge strengthens faith.

 

Quote:

We don't have to chose between the two like you. Learning is important, PERIOD. We don't buy into ignorance being a virtue to be celebrated, anymore than you would, or should celebrate someone claiming the earth to be flat.

Your problem is that once you buy into a concept that can be whatever you want it to be you can have it both ways. We are not plagued with that problem.

You do the same thing every theist I have ever debated does. Learning is what leads you to your own concbblusions.

NO, learning is the ability to go where the evidence leads, not where one wants it to go. You do not have that ability because of a REAL evolutionary side affect humans suffer from. We seek patterns, and when they seem to work, we far too often jump on that pattern, failing to test it to insure quality of data.

You are what Dawkins describes as the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight,

 

 

 

 

Proverbs 4:4-7  He taught me also, and said unto me, "Let thine heart retain my words:  "Keep my commandments, and live.  Get wisdom, get understanding:  Forget it not;  neither decline from the words of my mouth.  Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee:  Love her, and she shall keep thee.  wisdom is the principal thing:  therefore get wisdom:  And with all thy getting get understanding.

 

 

.


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:God

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

Thanks for the update. I know that YOU dont believe that. I am saying that when you compare ANY myth, including ones you don't buy, to comic books, there is no difference.

Claiming that virgins can pop out a baby with no second set of DNA is the same to me as claiming superman can stop bullets with his chest. Claiming that adults pop out of dirt is no different to me than claiming that Wonder Woman has a magic rope.

 

 God created DNA.  He took the rib of Adam, which properly translated is curve...which I see as the helix curve, DNA,  from Adam  to form Eve.  Could He not also take Mary's DNA which was from both the line of Judah and Levi to form Christ....His only begotten Son?

 

 

Quote:
BOTH require suspension of skepticism. The only difference is degree of skepticism. You can enjoy a superman movie without believing that superman can stop bullets with his chest. You cannot enjoy a virgin birth story without literally believing it.

 

 

I do literally believe it.  I literally believe all that I read until and unless I see that it is to be understood spiritually. 

 

 

 

Quote:
 POINT IS you blindly accept one fantastic claim while rightfully rejecting another for the mere story it is. BUT BOTH your myth and the comic book make fantastic claims.

Thor making lightening was once a literal belief. The sun being a god was once a literal belief. I see no difference between the myths and comic books you RIGHTFULLY reject for clearly obvious reasons, and your own claims as well.

The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more myth than you do.

 

 

 


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whirlwind wrote: Whether or

whirlwind wrote:

 

Whether or not one accepts the category of spiritual has no bearing on there being a category of spiritual. 

 

Right I get it.  Just because evidence of magic doesn't exist it doesn't mean that magic doesn't exists.  It's like with the Harry Potter stories.  God is like the ministry of magic.  He keeps normal moogle people from knowing about magic, but the special elect witches and wizards get a magical invitation to go get together with the other witches and wizards where they all learn together from a magical book.   

 


Brian37
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whirlwind wrote:Brian37

whirlwind wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Earlier you said that childlike ignorance might be the way it should be. Now learning is important?

 

 

No Brian, I said a childlike belief was the beginning.  Learning is important for knowledge strengthens faith.

 

Quote:

We don't have to chose between the two like you. Learning is important, PERIOD. We don't buy into ignorance being a virtue to be celebrated, anymore than you would, or should celebrate someone claiming the earth to be flat.

Your problem is that once you buy into a concept that can be whatever you want it to be you can have it both ways. We are not plagued with that problem.

You do the same thing every theist I have ever debated does. Learning is what leads you to your own concbblusions.

NO, learning is the ability to go where the evidence leads, not where one wants it to go. You do not have that ability because of a REAL evolutionary side affect humans suffer from. We seek patterns, and when they seem to work, we far too often jump on that pattern, failing to test it to insure quality of data.

You are what Dawkins describes as the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight,

 

 

 

 

Proverbs 4:4-7  He taught me also, and said unto me, "Let thine heart retain my words:  "Keep my commandments, and live.  Get wisdom, get understanding:  Forget it not;  neither decline from the words of my mouth.  Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee:  Love her, and she shall keep thee.  wisdom is the principal thing:  therefore get wisdom:  And with all thy getting get understanding.

 

 

.

OK, have it "Yahweh" "child like belief is the beginning"

No human starts out with adult knowledge. Once again your biblical view of what we are and what we seek are STILL childish.

I am addressing HOW WE GROW UP, not the fact we start out ignorant. As I said, if you still believe in invisible men at your age you might as well believe in pink unicorns. Having an adult imagination does not mean an adult can separate their ability to fall for elaborate scams, and dream up ways to sell what they believe, means that they have evidence for what they believe. It merely means they have adult imaginations.

Maturity is when you don't confuse your wishes as being more important than your ability to demonstrate your claims.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


pauljohntheskeptic
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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

It was Divinely inspired by God over a long, long period and penned by different men which, to my mind...lets me know there was only One author.

 

The writing that has been called the Bible can't even be universally agreed upon as to what should be included, translations, or interpretations.

That you say you are a Christian indicates you reject the interpretations of the originators of the Bible, the Jews.

 

 

Why do you say that?  I reject that those of the Jewish faith don't accept Christ as the fulfillment of what was to be.  I certainly don't reject the Old Testament.

 

As you see man is born with original sin requiring the Jesus to die as a sacrifice you are in opposition to Jewish belief from the start.

Jews consider man to be born with a pure soul and can return it to the god in the same condition.

 

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So why do you know more than those that created the stories?

  

I don't follow.

Is it your blinders?

From the start the Jews do not require the god to kill part of himself to redeem them from an original sin, see above.

The mashiach, what you call a messiah was considered to be the one to institute the god's kingdom on the Earth. The Jesus does not meet any of their requirements or prophecies. The prophecies used most generally by Christians are not considered to be prophecies related to the Jewish mashiach. If you'd like to examine this in detail, list the OT scriptures you consider to be related prophecies and why? I'll be glad to give you the Jewish interpretations of the same quotes.

 

whirlwind wrote:
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

As to if it was a group of 40 guys that created the stories or 5000 from myths, legends and storytelling is hard to transcend it into the god was the author.

The writing has Canaanite myths, Sumerian myths, and Egyptian myths rewritten into it, to fit the developing god myths of the people of Judah. The myths and stories of these other cultures are thousands of years older than the god myths of the Hebrews and Jews. The oldest storytelling from the Jews is found in the DSS, dated to the 2nd century BCE at best. While Sumerian stories date to 3500 BCE, as original documents.

  

Because the Sumerians had a written language before the Adamic line doesn't mean the history, as written in the Torah, didn't happen before that of the Sumerians...just written later. 

 

Keep telling your self that. This is more of, I know he's real, he's real.

If the god of the Hebrews was anywhere to be found before the time of Abraham's departure from the homeland of the Moon god Sin, please indicate where. One would think something would exist besides the Canaanite versions of El and Yahweh also sometimes know as Ba'al and his/their wife Ashtoret or Asherah as part of their pantheon which had basis in the gods of Sumer.

 

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

It is more a book of storytelling with legends and fables.

Pick any OT story and present your view for criticism.

  

Why don't you choose?  I might be able to answer....I might not.  Just know, they are not myths or fables.

Let's discuss the supposed invasion of Palestine by Joshua.

Start with the supposed destruction of Jericho and Ai.

There is also a very long thread on all of the OT in this thread - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279 and we have already discussed this there, so you can go see my views on it there. We are currently at the end of 1 Samuel. If you hang out for a few years, we may get to the end of the OT by then.

 

 

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

 

There are what we humans consider problems in the Bible and problems are to be resolved.  Keep looking.

What is to be resolved? That 3 men can walk into a furnace and live? That snakes and donkeys talk?

Not to mention the mythical invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews, which has no support and countless problems.

 

How did those three men live?  Was it literally or spiritually?  Was the fire literal fire or deception? 

The writings of Daniel are from the 2nd century BCE written during the Jewish Wars against Antiochus IV.

For a very, very detailed discussion on this see this thread - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20506 There are well over 1000 posts in it and we have reached Daniel 11 just recently. The Daniel discussion begins somewhere around page 5 or 6.

My view is the book of Daniel was written for the purpose of analogy, using storytelling and fiction to get across the author's intent to the Jews, that the god would see to it that they won out in the end against the Seleucids and Antiochus. If you wish to discuss this content, go to that thread, I imagine that Gramps would appreciate your help by now as he's been floundering lately.

 

whirlwind wrote:

The "talking snake" is the serpent...Satan.  He's still hissing in ears today. 

The serpent in Genesis is once again nothing but a snake in Judaism, not the god's servant prosecutor angel the Satan.

So you now have another disagreement with Jews that you have expressed.

As I always ask those that claim Satan warred with the god and fell with a number of angels, where exactly is this described in the OT. Not the NT Revelation account, as that was written far far after the supposed Torah account in Genesis regarding the Adam and Eve characters. Where in the OT is the fall of the angels and the Satan?

*edit fixed a quote problem*

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


Brian37
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whirlwind wrote:Brian37

whirlwind wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

Thanks for the update. I know that YOU dont believe that. I am saying that when you compare ANY myth, including ones you don't buy, to comic books, there is no difference.

Claiming that virgins can pop out a baby with no second set of DNA is the same to me as claiming superman can stop bullets with his chest. Claiming that adults pop out of dirt is no different to me than claiming that Wonder Woman has a magic rope.

 

 God created DNA.  He took the rib of Adam, which properly translated is curve...which I see as the helix curve, DNA,  from Adam  to form Eve.  Could He not also take Mary's DNA which was from both the line of Judah and Levi to form Christ....His only begotten Son?

 

 

Quote:
BOTH require suspension of skepticism. The only difference is degree of skepticism. You can enjoy a superman movie without believing that superman can stop bullets with his chest. You cannot enjoy a virgin birth story without literally believing it.

 

 

I do literally believe it.  I literally believe all that I read until and unless I see that it is to be understood spiritually. 

 

 

 

Quote:
 POINT IS you blindly accept one fantastic claim while rightfully rejecting another for the mere story it is. BUT BOTH your myth and the comic book make fantastic claims.

Thor making lightening was once a literal belief. The sun being a god was once a literal belief. I see no difference between the myths and comic books you RIGHTFULLY reject for clearly obvious reasons, and your own claims as well.

The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more myth than you do.

 

 

 

Ribs don't spiral like a staircase.

Would you believe a Muslim who claimed that a verse in the Koran proved that Allah was the one true god because of a verse talking about mountains moving? That must mean Muhammand knew about plate tectonics.

Would you believe a Muslim quoting the Koran  Allah picking the sex of the baby quoting a verse talking about congealed blood?

Would you believe a Muslim who quotes the Koran verse talking about "the skies turning red" as proof of knowledge of Super Novas?

All arguments I have encountered over the years.

NO, a male rib cadge is NOT twisted like a double helix. That would be like confusing a circle with being a slinky by proxy of both having round shapes.

Not to mention that a male rib cage is not a strand of DNA by itself.

You are grasping at straws.

You are merely back peddling because science has left your myth in the dust and the only thing you can do is try to pathetically ride it's coat tales to falsely maintain some sense of relevancy in modern times. No different than the Muslims I have debated who claim science prove their book.

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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whirlwind wrote: God

whirlwind wrote:
 

God created DNA.  He took the rib of Adam, which properly translated is curve...which I see as the helix curve, DNA,  from Adam  to form Eve.  Could He not also take Mary's DNA which was from both the line of Judah and Levi to form Christ....His only begotten Son?

I see, you are indeed a wise Wizard pondering over the details of your magical Lore.  As a mere muggle I can't answer your question sense obviously only wizards can truly understand the true meaning of your magical book.  

Quote:
I do literally believe it.  I literally believe all that I read until and unless I see that it is to be understood spiritually. 

 You are indeed a wise Wizard, because who else but a wise Wizard would come up with such a convenient way of interpreting things.  

 

 

 

 


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 whirlwind wrote:As some

 

whirlwind wrote:

As some believe "errors and contradictions of scripture" are "kept from laity," I assure you....the knowledge of God is kept from those who treat His Words as myth.

 

  • John 12:37-40  But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him:  That the saying of Esias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, ":Lord, who hath believed our report?  and to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?"  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart:  that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

 

You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

I'm still being nice here... and the majority of people are being nice.  But atheism is not a religion, and we are not arrogant.  That's not a very Christian thing to do, accuse people unjustly, or maybe it is, it seems I'm quite ignorant of what a TRUE Christian is.  Smiling

Again, what does the word ATHEIST mean to you? and explain to me why you believe that atheism is a religion.

Perhaps you can explain what the word RELIGION means to you as well.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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whirlwind wrote:You don't

whirlwind wrote:
You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

First of all, atheism is a religion in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Secondly, do you know what the height of irony is? It is being called arrogant by someone who claims to have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe!


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KSMB wrote:whirlwind

KSMB wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

First of all, atheism is a religion in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Secondly, do you know what the height of irony is? It is being called arrogant by someone who claims to have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe!

How dare you speak to the Wizard like that.  He has a special magical book that only he can truly understands.  We're just a bunch of arrogant stupid muggles who have no right to question the words of one of the elect.   If were not careful he'll sick he who can't be named on us.  They have a close personal relationship you know.  


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whirlwind wrote:TGBaker

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 I don't think that many of us who are atheists would acept a category of spiritual at least in a supernatural of Cartesian dualistic sense.  The universe seems to be a monism. The idea of spirit goes back to prehistoric times when "ruach", Hebrew fro breath, wind and spirit; pneuma New Testament Greek for breath, wind air spirit were all viewed the same. The ancients believed in four elements and that which could not be seen but felt nonetheless was considered  that which left the body at death. And it does but it is only air. We find similar originations from Indo-Eurpean langauge such as beu meaning breath which became our word "be". Isha breath becomes is. Our language is contains these ancient fossils that flavor our speech unconciously with a primitive physics and metaphysics that are no longer warranted. That we "sin" Greek New Testament harmatia is an old archers term that simply means the missing of the mark.  That it is specialized with a mythic fall and inherited evil ot propensity to evil (depending on which of the 30,000 variations of Chrisitian systems or denomination) simply reflects a superstitious belief that bad things happen to you because you screwed up.  A secular missing of the mark is simply not actively decreasing suffering in this world whther your own, your family of society.

 

 

Whether or not one accepts the category of spiritual has no bearing on there being a category of spiritual. 

 

The ruach, the spirit of life breathed into Adam formed a living soul.  Until that time mankind lived in walking, talking, breathing flesh bodies but they were not spiritually alive.  Adam was the first living soul.

 

 

 

 

 

DUH of course it is not acceptance that detrmines a category. The explanation as to why we don't accept such a superstitious category is the reason we dont' accept it. It is laid out where your metaphysical idea of a spirit originates...from breathing (life) to not breathing (death). The invisible thing that amazed early man and gave him reason to think a bigger invisible force gave it to man. The primal element of air. Your mythic statement is from Genesis shows the very thing I mention sbout Ruach (the breath ) of God is breathed  into Adam and he lives. When the breath (spirit ) leaves so does life/ pseuke ( soul ) It's quite obvious any number of primitive tribes could a thought such a thing. That last part is funny. It allows an old EARTH WITH ZOMBIE LIFE NEADERTHALS LACKING SPIRIT OR WHAT HAVE YOU. lOOKS LIKE A POOR ATTEMPT OF SPECULATION TO HARMONIZE SCRIPTURAL MYTH WITH SCIENCE.

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beardedinlair wrote:i have

beardedinlair wrote:

i have questions, not meant as an attack on your faith. most of my questions fall in this category by the way. i am agnostic. if you can honestly prove to me that God exists, I will jump on your  bandwagon. You got a chance with me.

what would you have called yourself before Christ was born? Would you have been Led to go to the Jews and beg them to let you be Jewish? Same type of question, what would you have been before the bible was written?

What was God to you before you read the Bible? You admit you were aware, and the bible was confirmation?

Can you define God without the bible? Define for me God without using scripture please. You sort of say you can have god without the bible.

 

also: if you say i have to take things on faith and no evidence, i will refer you to my own introduction. and i do not find the bible acceptable as evidence. hearsay and circumstantial.

 

 

I don't feel you are attacking my faith.    But, I thank you for showing consideration. 

 

I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't.    He is God and that He lives is obvious to me.  I feel Him, His Spirit teaches me and has shown signs many times.  There is no doubt.  This cannot be proven...at least as far as I know.  I simply know.  

 

 If I knew what I now know before Jesus was born I would have been of the One Body whether or not the tribe of Judah accepted me or not.  However, you should understand that there are many of us of the house of Israel and we are not Jews for they are the house of Judah.   Both houses are Israel but not all are Jews. 

 

What would I have called myself?  A child of God...I still do.

 

Before I read the Bible, (with understanding), I was agnostic.  I wanted to believe but there were too many unanswered questions.  That began when I was thirteen and lasted many, many years.  Just five or six years ago I was finally awakened.  Seeing nature...really seeing a seed grow, tadpoles change into frogs...the miracles that happen around us all the time.  I finally SAW.  At the same time I noticed signs.  I paid attention.  I prayed....He answered.  As the signs happened over and over again I would point them out to my mother.  She saw but shrugged them off as coincidence. 

 

I know that the Bible isn't hearsay and is evidence but each of us must reach a point before we accept that.   Perhaps the most difficult part is to shake off all the teaching we're received through the years.  Religion can take some serious bites out of folks.  Sometimes it can be a mortal blow.

 

 

.

  

 

 

 

 


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Brian37 wrote:Quote:Whether

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Whether or not one accepts the category of spiritual has no bearing on there being a category of spiritual.

For that to be true you have to first establish that the spiritual is a reality. No one in human history has done that, much less a polytheist or monotheistic god by any NAME.

God/spirit both rely on the credulity that thinking can happen outside a material process.

Go work on getting "spirit theory" as solid as DNA and you will have something. I will hold my breath for your evidence as long as I do for claims of Big Foot and Ouija Boards.

Good luck with that. I am sure if you accomplish that you will win the Nobel Prize.

 

 

 

Well, if Obama won the Nobel Prize  it shouldn't be too hard for anyone else. 

 

 

 

 

 


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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

beardedinlair wrote:

i have questions, not meant as an attack on your faith. most of my questions fall in this category by the way. i am agnostic. if you can honestly prove to me that God exists, I will jump on your  bandwagon. You got a chance with me.

what would you have called yourself before Christ was born? Would you have been Led to go to the Jews and beg them to let you be Jewish? Same type of question, what would you have been before the bible was written?

What was God to you before you read the Bible? You admit you were aware, and the bible was confirmation?

Can you define God without the bible? Define for me God without using scripture please. You sort of say you can have god without the bible.

 

also: if you say i have to take things on faith and no evidence, i will refer you to my own introduction. and i do not find the bible acceptable as evidence. hearsay and circumstantial.

 

 

I don't feel you are attacking my faith.    But, I thank you for showing consideration. 

 

I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't.    He is God and that He lives is obvious to me.  I feel Him, His Spirit teaches me and has shown signs many times.  There is no doubt.  This cannot be proven...at least as far as I know.  I simply know.  

 

 

Eleven Non-Commandments

1) There is a possible world of only well-being (p). 

2) A capable limitless good being (x) knowing of this world (p) would actualize (necessarily) it over  possible worlds with evil and suffering (q).

3)x necessarily would not allow  q

4)p--> not q

5) It is possible that god is x

6)q --> not p

7) Our world=q therefore not p

8)not p

9)not p--->not x

10)not x

11)god= not x

 Our world entails there is no capable limitless good being. If there is a god he is not that being. No sky daddy like the theistic one.

 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

beardedinlair wrote:

i have questions, not meant as an attack on your faith. most of my questions fall in this category by the way. i am agnostic. if you can honestly prove to me that God exists, I will jump on your  bandwagon. You got a chance with me.

what would you have called yourself before Christ was born? Would you have been Led to go to the Jews and beg them to let you be Jewish? Same type of question, what would you have been before the bible was written?

What was God to you before you read the Bible? You admit you were aware, and the bible was confirmation?

Can you define God without the bible? Define for me God without using scripture please. You sort of say you can have god without the bible.

 

also: if you say i have to take things on faith and no evidence, i will refer you to my own introduction. and i do not find the bible acceptable as evidence. hearsay and circumstantial.

 

 

I don't feel you are attacking my faith.    But, I thank you for showing consideration. 

 

I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't.    He is God and that He lives is obvious to me.  I feel Him, His Spirit teaches me and has shown signs many times.  There is no doubt.  This cannot be proven...at least as far as I know.  I simply know.  

 

 If I knew what I now know before Jesus was born I would have been of the One Body whether or not the tribe of Judah accepted me or not.  However, you should understand that there are many of us of the house of Israel and we are not Jews for they are the house of Judah.   Both houses are Israel but not all are Jews. 

 

What would I have called myself?  A child of God...I still do.

 

Before I read the Bible, (with understanding), I was agnostic.  I wanted to believe but there were too many unanswered questions.  That began when I was thirteen and lasted many, many years.  Just five or six years ago I was finally awakened.  Seeing nature...really seeing a seed grow, tadpoles change into frogs...the miracles that happen around us all the time.  I finally SAW.  At the same time I noticed signs.  I paid attention.  I prayed....He answered.  As the signs happened over and over again I would point them out to my mother.  She saw but shrugged them off as coincidence. 

 

I know that the Bible isn't hearsay and is evidence but each of us must reach a point before we accept that.   Perhaps the most difficult part is to shake off all the teaching we're received through the years.  Religion can take some serious bites out of folks.  Sometimes it can be a mortal blow.

 

 

.

  

 

 

 

 

Well actually the bible is not just hearsay it is for the most part fabricated regarding the gospels.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism


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whirlwind wrote:TGBaker

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 

 It works fine. My degrees are in theology and Bible. I have a specialization in the historical jesus.  Morality as you hinted from Paul is quite natural. As far as those things being hard to understand. They aren't really...they just do not correspond to the contemporary idea of a Judeo-Christian god. Those things are quite consistant with the barbaric Yahweh and Eloistic origins of the Western concepts of theism. The texts state what they state and show what they show.  Nothing hard from our position but does not correspond to theism very well does it. So perhaps it is hard for you to understand from your presuppositions and beliefs.

 

I congratulate you on your degrees however it shows only that you are intelligent enough to read and pass exams.   I do not mean that in an unkind way.  Reading something and understanding something are not the same.  I read the Bible three times and never got diddly out of it.  Now...I see.

 

 

  • 11 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I understand it and even understand your belief system and faith since I once had it. However a non-biased study of the origins of the Bible, its culture and the obvious reworking of the gospels over  and over again to accomadate change in Christology is why I finally rejected "OUR" faith.  I studied under several New Testament scholars since my focus wass the "real" historical Jesus. I focused on the culture of 160 BCE to the counsel of Nicea, Church History and can tell you with certainty that the Christian faith ( whichever one you want to pick ) was recast and fabricaated over and over again. There was never one belief system from shortly after Jesus's death. Jesus was simply  a follower of John the Baptist and began a similar eschatological ministry after the Baptist was arrested.  ANd to finish you simply use the illegitimate arrogance of your on faith in the sited scripture which is not evidentiary and simply self serving mumbo-jumbo. I am right because  I am from god. I am from god because I am inerrant scripture completely circular and meaningless. Secondly the errors and contradictions of scripture are plentiful and even recognized and discussed inmany seminaries but buffered and kept from laity.

 

As some believe "errors and contradictions of scripture" are "kept from laity," I assure you....the knowledge of God is kept from those who treat His Words as myth.

 

  • John 12:37-40  But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him:  That the saying of Esias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, ":Lord, who hath believed our report?  and to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?"  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart:  that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

 

You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

 

 

 

.

 

I can load you up with  errors and contradictions of scripture for the next four years but unfortunately there are none that are so  blind as them that will not see. Secondly how is atheism a religion. It is the rejection of a theistic claim. Is non-football a sport?  I know the real Jesus and your theistic arrogance shows by stating I do not.  You have no idea what lies in the original language of the New Testment....what it says apart from some poor English translation. You have not looked at the way the Greek was pasted together to create a false idea of who Jesus really was.It is YOUR RELIGION AMONG ALL OTHERS THAT HAS REACHED A HEIGHT OF UNSURMOUNTABLE ARROGANCE. I. THINK YOU NEED TO DISCUSS THIS ONCE YOU HAVE READ SOMETHING OTHER THAN PROPAGANDA' Do you think that throwing about scriptural quotes have any evidentuary value? I know it is hard for you to take or believe but you bought into a bill of goods that is equivalent to Santa Claus for adults. I know Johnny 12:37ff gives you comfort in that you can look at those who do not believe your bible as actually blinded by god.  It also indicts god as a willy-nilly silly who goes through hsi cretion saying that should burn so don't let him see and believe ...oh let that cute blond believe heaven will be better off with her. Harden that dude's heart he's such a geek oh about that redhead same situation as the blond. What John12:37ff actually shows also if you believe there is no real reason to talk with us since we are blinded so that we can not believe.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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whirlwind wrote:...I cannot

whirlwind wrote:

...

I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't.    He is God and that He lives is obvious to me.  I feel Him, His Spirit teaches me and has shown signs many times.  There is no doubt.  This cannot be proven...at least as far as I know.  I simply know.  

...


Before I read the Bible, (with understanding), I was agnostic.  I wanted to believe but there were too many unanswered questions.  That began when I was thirteen and lasted many, many years.  Just five or six years ago I was finally awakened.  Seeing nature...really seeing a seed grow, tadpoles change into frogs...the miracles that happen around us all the time.  I finally SAW.  At the same time I noticed signs.  I paid attention.  I prayed....He answered.  As the signs happened over and over again I would point them out to my mother.  She saw but shrugged them off as coincidence. 

I know that the Bible isn't hearsay and is evidence but each of us must reach a point before we accept that.   Perhaps the most difficult part is to shake off all the teaching we're received through the years.  Religion can take some serious bites out of folks.  Sometimes it can be a mortal blow.

 

Personal experience. Unprovable personal experience. What I have found is that people using faith without evidence leads to evil actions. (again, see my introduction) My personal experience is a sign to me that faith without proof, verifiable proof that can't be recanted is evil. You believing in God without being able to show the evidence means that your belief in God is evil, or it could lead to evil actions.

The Bible was written by men. Divine intervention or not, they filtered it through their own faulty awareness. If you concede that Jesus is the only perfect man, then imperfect men wrote the bible, leading to an imperfect bible. Not to be trusted any more than any other personal experience.


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whirlwind wrote: My visit

whirlwind wrote:
My visit here isn't an attack. 

You're a guest here, and not a very kind one.

You like to run your fucking mouth an awful lot, about individuals you know nothing about.

whirlwind wrote:
 As a Christian...

You're just as obnoxious as all the other ones that are welcomed here.

whirlwind wrote:
I realize you were and no longer are "a Christian" but, there is always hope you will see truth.

I see just fine.

You're a misinformed, ignorant, presumptuous, pompous, obnoxious ass who mistakenly assumes their more intelligent and informed that complete strangers are.

IOW, you're a garden variety Christian idiot.

Just as an FYI, the 'battle' has been won long ago. America is a secular country, and not a 'Christian' nation, like most of you clowns daydream about.

More and more individuals are rejecting theism, and breeding the next generations of atheists, that will combine with the hundreds of millions that currently exist.

The internet is the next big nail in the coffin for theism.

 

And finally, if there is a hell, it's probably been grossly underrated.

Think about it. That's where all the strippers and rock stars are...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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I'm not sure what this

I'm not sure what this person is trying to accomplish by posting here.  All he seems to do is make baseless assertions about atheism, which I don't believe he even understands the meaning of.  Accuse us of being arrogant, which most of us are, but not because we're atheists, we're just assholes.  

Also I see him as sticking his fingers in his ears and going "Nanananananana" every time he hears anything questioning the bible.  The constant bible quotes thrown in to highlight his points are silly at best.  

To sum it up, he doesn't care that he believes in an idiotic fairytale, he REALLY believes it, so it must be true.

He's obviously too self deluded to learn anything, so what's the point?

Also, I wish he grew a spine and tell us why we're wrong, at least I would respect him for taking a stand.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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This constitutes

whirlwind wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence. Ultimately these discussions come down to the old 'is not/is too' position with the godly insisting that evolution is a lie, the lord exists outside this space time and we all argue because we crave a life of sin. It's quite pathetic. 

 

 

It is difficult for the two, the supernatural and the natural, to come together. 

 

  • 1 Corinthians 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  •  
  • 2:13-14  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's widom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spirtual things with spiritual.   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

Hopefully, discussions of the spiritual vs. natural will provide understanding.

 

I don't think you (at least not all of you ) crave a life of sin.

 

A fallacious argument from complexity. Whirlwind, there are things about reality that can be known. But things about the supernatural by definition, cannot be known by those in this place. That 2:13-14 quote is an ad hominem on top of an assertion. I think you ought to bear in mind that when you use the word spiritual you should be deploying the word imaginary.

 

 


 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Morality and Awe

whirlwind wrote:

 

  My life isn't based on assertion but rather on truth. 

 

 

This is a rank assertion with a triple somersault and pike in the half tuck position.

 

whirlwind wrote:

 

Even if you had not been "raised in a group," where you were taught "awe and morality" your soul would make decisions....

  • Romans 2:11-15 For there is no respect of persons with God.  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:  and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained n the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one anotherEye-wink

So, even if not taught morality...one would either do or not do what they know "by nature" to be good or evil. 

 

 

I feel awe as a sentient being in this place. Morality I learned from growing up in a group. Morality is not some universal constant it's an integral feature of the development of a human life. Insisting god is behind morality is an assertion based on zero proof. Children are not born with morality. They learn it over a long period of time. I am still learning it in my mid-40s. Read some Kohlberg. At least his assertions are based on the observations of a lifetime of fieldwork.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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No Whirlwind, we don't.

whirlwind wrote:

Evidence is all around you...the problem is in recognizing it for what it is.  We simply accept the wonder of this world without wondering.  Instead we attribute it to some strange happenstance.


We seek to understand the natural world for what it can be demonstrated to be. There are gaps in this knowledge but our journey is in its infancy. You are the one attributing the world to some strange happenstance. In refuting this point, perhaps you could explain to us, using cogent data, how creation works.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Sorry to quote myself but

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence.

 

 

Here we are again. What fun...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Well folks

 

whirlwind wrote:

I assure you....the knowledge of God is kept from those who treat His Words as myth.

 

  • John 12:37-40  But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him:  That the saying of Esias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, ":Lord, who hath believed our report?  and to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?"  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart:  that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

 

You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.


 

 

My store of politeness is completely used up. Whirlwind you are an arrogant, obnoxious git. Your posts here indicate you have no understanding of anything actual and you use bible to perpetrate a position of righteous ignorance.

Here you tell us we must believe your baseless assertions before we can understand them. You offer no proof, you have no proof, you just throw bible at us like it proves something. You are a glittering instance of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Congratulations on your elevation.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Argument from ignorance.

whirlwind wrote:

 

I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't. 

 

 

Fallacious argument from ignorance.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

  My life isn't based on assertion but rather on truth. 

 

 

This is a rank assertion with a triple somersault and pike in the half tuck position.

hehe, he gets a PERFECT 10!

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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There is no decently

There is no decently verifiable Truth in Christian dogma and the bible, it is all empty conjecture + wishful thinking (AKA 'faith' ).

Without empirical, independent evidence, all you have are ideas and fallible intuitions.

'God' is a total fail as any kind of 'explanation' of origins, relative to current science, and the very opposite of a source of decent morality.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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Ktulu wrote:I'm not sure

Ktulu wrote:

I'm not sure what this person is trying to accomplish by posting here.  All he seems to do is make baseless assertions about atheism, which I don't believe he even understands the meaning of.  Accuse us of being arrogant, which most of us are, but not because we're atheists, we're just assholes.  

Also I see him as sticking his fingers in his ears and going "Nanananananana" every time he hears anything questioning the bible.  The constant bible quotes thrown in to highlight his points are silly at best.  

To sum it up, he doesn't care that he believes in an idiotic fairytale, he REALLY believes it, so it must be true.n

He's obviously too self deluded to learn anything, so what's the point?

Also, I wish he grew a spine and tell us why we're wrong, at least I would respect him for taking a stand.

it's I like  I've posted before Ktulu.  The belief in god is built on a more primary belief: The Bible is his revelation about himself and therefore inspired. iIt is either infallible or inerrant but at the authoritative means of a god. No bible no  known god since god is dependent upon it as his revelation. So what happens is the the primary belief is in the bible as a necessary thing. God is whatever it says in whatever way. And since there are tmany ways that god is presented in the differing books there are many different types of christianity, few of which are compatible. Many Christians are really biblio-idolators so indoctrinated that they do not even realize that their object of worship is scripture and what it speaks  IT IS THE WORD OF GOD.  There is a place in ! Corithians 13 which talks about the Eschaton ( KIngdom) but instead of the end times the real conservatives interpete the perfect as the bible.

 8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.

 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. .

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TGBaker wrote:There is a

TGBaker wrote:

There is a place in ! Corithians 13 which talks about the Eschaton ( KIngdom) but instead of the end times the real conservatives interpete the perfect as the bible.

 8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.

 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. .

Smiling I miss your input in these discussions.  Of course they would interpret it that way, what' more perfect than a collection of stories, arbitrarily chosen from a larger number of stories, and bastardized by transcribing and translating for almost two millennia?  Just about anything is actually.

The more I read on this forum, the more I see what you meant about approaching these individuals at a bible level.  But even that seems to fail in the face of voluntary ignorance and idiocy.  It's really depressing to see a fellow human so self deluded, it points out everything that's wrong with humanity.  Ironically it also exemplifies our bestial ancestry more than any other human trait.  

How are things going for you dude on a personal level? I wish your stay there sucks less every day Smiling

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Quote:I cannot prove God

Quote:
I cannot prove God exists anymore than you can prove He doesn't.

Thoughts require a material process. There is no science out there disputing that FACT of biological evolution. Much less an invisible brain with no material with magical super powers.

NOT to mention this is a very typical 101 theist mistake.

How do you know there are not invisible  unicorns on Mars? Have you aver been on mars physically? Have you searched every inch of it? They are invisible so you cant detect them, but that doesn't mean they are not there.

Again, the burden of proof is on the claimant, not the person saying "you have no evidence for your claim".

AND combine that with the fact that these stories were written in an age where they DIDN'T have modern science to test their claims.

AND, since you already accept that people are capable of believing false things, I would say YOU need to consider that YOU are doing no differently than the others you know, rightfully so, that they believe false things.

Humans have always had a history of believing false things. Humans like placebos and invent them and believe in them because of the false sense of comfort it brings them. It is merely wishful thinking.

See if you can spot the pattern...

"Allah is real because you cannot prove he isn't"

"Vishnu is real because you cannot prove he isn't"

"Yahweh is real because you cannot prove he isn't"

"Thor is real because you cannot prove he isn't"

"Osirus is real because you cannot prove he isn't"

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

See what you are doing? To make your model work you would have to believe in all these claims which you don't. You would rightfully demand evidence, OR you should, if someone claimed Allah to be real and the one true god.

I am asserting that NO ONE in human history that has claimed a deity of any kind, is getting it right. I am asserting that every human in human history who has claimed a deity, including you, merely likes the idea of having a god.

Otherwise if there were evidence for ANY of these claims it would be settled easily in an independent lab setting. We have much better data than ANY holy book. We know that it takes a physical material for a thought to arise. We know people are capable of believing false things.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see what humans do. They invent these myths to placate their own emotions.

You simply believe yours is not a myth. I am telling you it is a myth. You are no different than any god/s believer in human history.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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RatDog wrote:whirlwind

RatDog wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

Whether or not one accepts the category of spiritual has no bearing on there being a category of spiritual. 

 

Right I get it.  Just because evidence of magic doesn't exist it doesn't mean that magic doesn't exists.  It's like with the Harry Potter stories.  God is like the ministry of magic.  He keeps normal moogle people from knowing about magic, but the special elect witches and wizards get a magical invitation to go get together with the other witches and wizards where they all learn together from a magical book.   

 

 

 

 

 

The analogy doesn't work.  The Book is there for all to read...same words for everyone as "He sendeth rain on the just and the unjust." [Mt.5:45]  There are elect and there are those of free will but the reason for His elect is so they reach those of free will.  He wants all to be with Him....

 

  • 2 Peter 3:9  The LORD is not slack concerning His promise as some men count slackness:  but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

Those that have repented are those that receive deeper knowledge...we all make choices.

 

 

 

.

 


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Brian37 wrote:OK, have it

Brian37 wrote:

OK, have it "Yahweh" "child like belief is the beginning"

No human starts out with adult knowledge. Once again your biblical view of what we are and what we seek are STILL childish.

I am addressing HOW WE GROW UP, not the fact we start out ignorant. As I said, if you still believe in invisible men at your age you might as well believe in pink unicorns. Having an adult imagination does not mean an adult can separate their ability to fall for elaborate scams, and dream up ways to sell what they believe, means that they have evidence for what they believe. It merely means they have adult imaginations.

Maturity is when you don't confuse your wishes as being more important than your ability to demonstrate your claims.

 

 

 

Maturity is when we find wisdom, knowledge and understanding.  In other words, when we find truth and are willing enough, mature enough, to let go of childish things.  Those "childish things" you see as spirit.  Those "childish things" I see as man's ego and inability to recognize something larger than himself. 

 

 

  • 1 Corinthians 13:9-12  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child:  but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  For now we see through a glass, darkly;  but then face to face:  now I know in part:  but then shall I know even as also I am known.
  •  

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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I have no problem with

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

It was Divinely inspired by God over a long, long period and penned by different men which, to my mind...lets me know there was only One author.

 

The writing that has been called the Bible can't even be universally agreed upon as to what should be included, translations, or interpretations.

That you say you are a Christian indicates you reject the interpretations of the originators of the Bible, the Jews.

 

 

Why do you say that?  I reject that those of the Jewish faith don't accept Christ as the fulfillment of what was to be.  I certainly don't reject the Old Testament.

 

As you see man is born with original sin requiring the Jesus to die as a sacrifice you are in opposition to Jewish belief from the start.

Jews consider man to be born with a pure soul and can return it to the god in the same condition.

 

 

 

What men, whether Jewish or not, believe has no bearing on what is written.  Being Jewish or Christian doesn't make one correct or incorrect. 

 

 

Quote:

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

So why do you know more than those that created the stories?

  

I don't follow.

Is it your blinders?

From the start the Jews do not require the god to kill part of himself to redeem them from an original sin, see above.

The mashiach, what you call a messiah was considered to be the one to institute the god's kingdom on the Earth. The Jesus does not meet any of their requirements or prophecies. The prophecies used most generally by Christians are not considered to be prophecies related to the Jewish mashiach. If you'd like to examine this in detail, list the OT scriptures you consider to be related prophecies and why? I'll be glad to give you the Jewish interpretations of the same quotes.

 

 

The Messiah did institute God's kingdom on earth.  I am of that kingdom now. 

 

Psalm 22 tells of the crucifixion of Jesus. 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

As to if it was a group of 40 guys that created the stories or 5000 from myths, legends and storytelling is hard to transcend it into the god was the author.

The writing has Canaanite myths, Sumerian myths, and Egyptian myths rewritten into it, to fit the developing god myths of the people of Judah. The myths and stories of these other cultures are thousands of years older than the god myths of the Hebrews and Jews. The oldest storytelling from the Jews is found in the DSS, dated to the 2nd century BCE at best. While Sumerian stories date to 3500 BCE, as original documents.

  

Because the Sumerians had a written language before the Adamic line doesn't mean the history, as written in the Torah, didn't happen before that of the Sumerians...just written later. 

 

Keep telling your self that. This is more of, I know he's real, he's real.

If the god of the Hebrews was anywhere to be found before the time of Abraham's departure from the homeland of the Moon god Sin, please indicate where. One would think something would exist besides the Canaanite versions of El and Yahweh also sometimes know as Ba'al and his/their wife Ashtoret or Asherah as part of their pantheon which had basis in the gods of Sumer.

 

 

He is real.  You are allowing yourself to be mislead by myth, by twisted truths. 

 

 

 

Quote:

 

whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

It is more a book of storytelling with legends and fables.

Pick any OT story and present your view for criticism.

  

Why don't you choose?  I might be able to answer....I might not.  Just know, they are not myths or fables.

Let's discuss the supposed invasion of Palestine by Joshua.

Start with the supposed destruction of Jericho and Ai.

There is also a very long thread on all of the OT in this thread - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279 and we have already discussed this there, so you can go see my views on it there. We are currently at the end of 1 Samuel. If you hang out for a few years, we may get to the end of the OT by then.

 

 

Why do you see the destruction of Jericho as being "supposed?" 

 

 

 

Quote:
whirlwind wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
 

 

There are what we humans consider problems in the Bible and problems are to be resolved.  Keep looking.

What is to be resolved? That 3 men can walk into a furnace and live? That snakes and donkeys talk?

Not to mention the mythical invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews, which has no support and countless problems.

 

How did those three men live?  Was it literally or spiritually?  Was the fire literal fire or deception? 

The writings of Daniel are from the 2nd century BCE written during the Jewish Wars against Antiochus IV.

For a very, very detailed discussion on this see this thread - http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/20506 There are well over 1000 posts in it and we have reached Daniel 11 just recently. The Daniel discussion begins somewhere around page 5 or 6.

My view is the book of Daniel was written for the purpose of analogy, using storytelling and fiction to get across the author's intent to the Jews, that the god would see to it that they won out in the end against the Seleucids and Antiochus. If you wish to discuss this content, go to that thread, I imagine that Gramps would appreciate your help by now as he's been floundering lately.

 

whirlwind wrote:

The "talking snake" is the serpent...Satan.  He's still hissing in ears today. 

The serpent in Genesis is once again nothing but a snake in Judaism, not the god's servant prosecutor angel the Satan.

So you now have another disagreement with Jews that you have expressed.

As I always ask those that claim Satan warred with the god and fell with a number of angels, where exactly is this described in the OT. Not the NT Revelation account, as that was written far far after the supposed Torah account in Genesis regarding the Adam and Eve characters. Where in the OT is the fall of the angels and the Satan?

*edit fixed a quote problem*

 

 

If those of the Jewish faith believe the serpent was a talking snake then I am amazed and very disappointed. 

 

When we are first introduced to Satan in the garden he is already in his fallen state.  When did that happen?    In [Gen.6] we're shown fallen angels. 

 

 

.


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Brian37 wrote:whirlwind

Brian37 wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

Thanks for the update. I know that YOU dont believe that. I am saying that when you compare ANY myth, including ones you don't buy, to comic books, there is no difference.

Claiming that virgins can pop out a baby with no second set of DNA is the same to me as claiming superman can stop bullets with his chest. Claiming that adults pop out of dirt is no different to me than claiming that Wonder Woman has a magic rope.

 

 God created DNA.  He took the rib of Adam, which properly translated is curve...which I see as the helix curve, DNA,  from Adam  to form Eve.  Could He not also take Mary's DNA which was from both the line of Judah and Levi to form Christ....His only begotten Son?

 

 

Quote:
BOTH require suspension of skepticism. The only difference is degree of skepticism. You can enjoy a superman movie without believing that superman can stop bullets with his chest. You cannot enjoy a virgin birth story without literally believing it.

 

 

I do literally believe it.  I literally believe all that I read until and unless I see that it is to be understood spiritually. 

 

 

 

Quote:
 POINT IS you blindly accept one fantastic claim while rightfully rejecting another for the mere story it is. BUT BOTH your myth and the comic book make fantastic claims.

Thor making lightening was once a literal belief. The sun being a god was once a literal belief. I see no difference between the myths and comic books you RIGHTFULLY reject for clearly obvious reasons, and your own claims as well.

The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more myth than you do.

 

 

 

Ribs don't spiral like a staircase.

 

 

Ribs don't have to spiral.  This has nothing to do with a rib...that was a mistranslation.  The word was "curve," not rib, as in helix curve. 

 

 

Quote:
Would you believe a Muslim who claimed that a verse in the Koran proved that Allah was the one true god because of a verse talking about mountains moving? That must mean Muhammand knew about plate tectonics.

Would you believe a Muslim quoting the Koran  Allah picking the sex of the baby quoting a verse talking about congealed blood?

Would you believe a Muslim who quotes the Koran verse talking about "the skies turning red" as proof of knowledge of Super Novas?

All arguments I have encountered over the years.

NO, a male rib cadge is NOT twisted like a double helix. That would be like confusing a circle with being a slinky by proxy of both having round shapes.

Not to mention that a male rib cage is not a strand of DNA by itself.

You are grasping at straws.

 

 

You are not understanding.  Please get the word "rib" out of your thoughts.  Instead see the word "curve."  The translators apparently saw curve and assumed it was a rib. 

 

Quote:

You are merely back peddling because science has left your myth in the dust and the only thing you can do is try to pathetically ride it's coat tales to falsely maintain some sense of relevancy in modern times. No different than the Muslims I have debated who claim science prove their book.

 

 

 

Science and the Bible should agree.  Where it doesn't either means science was wrong or folks reading the bible aren't seeing what is there.

 

 

.


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BobSpence1 wrote:I have no

BobSpence1 wrote:

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

I'm not sure that mr. whirlwind here is referring to the same 'spirituality'.  For that matter, I'm not sure him and us speak the same language when defining a large number of words.

Well said though Smiling

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Ktulu wrote:TGBaker

Ktulu wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

There is a place in ! Corithians 13 which talks about the Eschaton ( KIngdom) but instead of the end times the real conservatives interpete the perfect as the bible.

 8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.

 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;

 10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. .

Smiling I miss your input in these discussions.  Of course they would interpret it that way, what' more perfect than a collection of stories, arbitrarily chosen from a larger number of stories, and bastardized by transcribing and translating for almost two millennia?  Just about anything is actually.

The more I read on this forum, the more I see what you meant about approaching these individuals at a bible level.  But even that seems to fail in the face of voluntary ignorance and idiocy.  It's really depressing to see a fellow human so self deluded, it points out everything that's wrong with humanity.  Ironically it also exemplifies our bestial ancestry more than any other human trait.  

How are things going for you dude on a personal level? I wish your stay there sucks less every day Smiling

  I may get to go home monday but they can not find what is causing my fever.  I would really like to post more but it is really hard for me to type and see. Those that know me bare with the typos and sometimes babbling runons since they are drug induced by many doctorsand nurses that cater to my evewry need. Thanks.  Well the delusion is deeply imprinted I would bet. Not only from family and church going but things like liquor and beer not being sold on Sunday in many southern states. It is an actual indoctrination or brainwashing of large systems of belief like Calvinism.  Words such as truth, goodness, bad,evil and what have you become specialized and mean something different in their belief system than in a non-belief system.  In fact it even corrupts secular language where fact and truth  are blurred. People speak of "Truth" as some transcendent absolute.  But if we use a simple experiment we see that truth is simple itself.  You ask me to tell you truthfully what the furtherest planet in the solar system is. I respond that it is Pluto. I do not know Pluto has been demoted.  I answered truthfully but wrongly.  Truth does not entail facticity. Truth is an actual inherent logic in homo sapiens that is a early seed of secular morality.  Truth simply is a person tellling another what he/she actually understands about thhe given.  Truth corresponds to facts only as well as the person can understand.  Lying has to have intent. For example Mary bought a new BMW.  John saw her looking at a Toyoto and she was close to purchasing it. John figured done deal. He went back to work and ran into Sue who he knew would fume if he told her about Mary bying a new car. To make her really jealous he told Sue that Mary had bought a sporty BMW.  His statement is factual but the intent is a deception. He believed she had bought a Toyoto.  So with at least the development of language our species had to negotiate about communication once someone invented lying. Facts is what it is....Truth is an ethical moral handling of those facts to another.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TGBaker wrote:I may get to

TGBaker wrote:

I may get to go home monday but they can not find what is causing my fever.  I would really like to post more but it is really hard for me to type and see. Those that know me bare with the typos and sometimes babbling runons since they are drug induced by many doctorsand nurses that cater to my evewry need. Thanks.  Well the delusion is deeply imprinted I would bet. Not only from family and church going but things like liquor and beer not being sold on Sunday in many southern states. It is an actual indoctrination or brainwashing of large systems of belief like Calvinism.  Words such as truth, goodness, bad,evil and what have you become specialized and mean something different in their belief system than in a non-belief system.  In fact it even corrupts secular language where fact and truth  are blurred. People speak of "Truth" as some transcendent absolute.  But if we use a simple experiment we see that truth is simple itself.  You ask me to tell you truthfully what the furtherest planet in the solar system is. I respond that it is Pluto. I do not know Pluto has been demoted.  I answered truthfully but wrongly.  Truth does not entail facticity. Truth is an actual inherent logic in homo sapiens that is a early seed of secular morality.  Truth simply is a person tellling another what he/she actually understands about thhe given.  Truth corresponds to facts only as well as the person can understand.  Lying has to have intent. For example Mary bought a new BMW.  John saw her looking at a Toyoto and she was close to purchasing it. John figured done deal. He went back to work and ran into Sue who he knew would fume if he told her about Mary bying a new car. To make her really jealous he told Sue that Mary had bought a sporty BMW.  His statement is factual but the intent is a deception. He believed she had bought a Toyoto.  So with at least the development of language our species had to negotiate about communication once someone invented lying. Facts is what it is....Truth is an ethical moral handling of those facts to another.

Glad to hear you are doing better Smiling  It's a little frustrating dealing with someone that appeals to the bible as a reason for believing that the bible is not a work of fiction.  Truth is relative, just like everything else.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote: whirlwind

Ktulu wrote:

 

whirlwind wrote:

As some believe "errors and contradictions of scripture" are "kept from laity," I assure you....the knowledge of God is kept from those who treat His Words as myth.

 

  • John 12:37-40  But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on Him:  That the saying of Esias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, ":Lord, who hath believed our report?  and to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?"  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart:  that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

 

You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

I'm still being nice here... and the majority of people are being nice.  But atheism is not a religion, and we are not arrogant.  That's not a very Christian thing to do, accuse people unjustly, or maybe it is, it seems I'm quite ignorant of what a TRUE Christian is.  Smiling

Again, what does the word ATHEIST mean to you? and explain to me why you believe that atheism is a religion.

Perhaps you can explain what the word RELIGION means to you as well.

 

 

 

My use of the "arrogance" word was in response to a posters use of the word when describing my beliefs.  I didn't mean it to be said in a nasty way...

 

The word atheist means to me?  Godless. 

 

Why do I believe atheism is a religion?  I don't know if I can answer that...I just do.

 

The word religion means to me...a waste of time. 

 

Perhaps my thoughts on that tell me why I see atheism as a religion.  A waste of time, for all religions are of man, by man, for man.  They separate...section off people from each other.

 

 

.


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KSMB wrote:whirlwind

KSMB wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
You don't know the "real Jesus" yet.  The arrogance of your religion of atheism won't allow it.

First of all, atheism is a religion in the same way that NOT collecting stamps is a hobby. Secondly, do you know what the height of irony is? It is being called arrogant by someone who claims to have a personal relationship with the creator of the universe!

 

 

Truly, I didn't mean to call you arrogant.  It was used in reply to a posters' comment when he used that word.

 

Many have a person relationship with the Creator.  Pretty amazing and wonderful!   

 

 

.

 


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whirlwind wrote:Brian37

whirlwind wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

OK, have it "Yahweh" "child like belief is the beginning"

No human starts out with adult knowledge. Once again your biblical view of what we are and what we seek are STILL childish.

I am addressing HOW WE GROW UP, not the fact we start out ignorant. As I said, if you still believe in invisible men at your age you might as well believe in pink unicorns. Having an adult imagination does not mean an adult can separate their ability to fall for elaborate scams, and dream up ways to sell what they believe, means that they have evidence for what they believe. It merely means they have adult imaginations.

Maturity is when you don't confuse your wishes as being more important than your ability to demonstrate your claims.

 

 

 

Maturity is when we find wisdom, knowledge and understanding.  In other words, when we find truth and are willing enough, mature enough, to let go of childish things.  Those "childish things" you see as spirit.  Those "childish things" I see as man's ego and inability to recognize something larger than himself. 

 

 

  • 1 Corinthians 13:9-12  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child:  but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  For now we see through a glass, darkly;  but then face to face:  now I know in part:  but then shall I know even as also I am known.
  •  

 

You have not put away childish things. The fact that you quote the bible to prove the bible is immature, not mature, and hardly wisdom.

Lets try again and see if you can spot the pattern.

"The Koran is true because the Koran says so"

"The Talmud is true because the Talmud says so"

"The Reg Vedas are true because the Reg Veda's say so"

All you have proven to me is your ability to copy and paste something.

You still have no evidence of an invisible non-material magical super brain with magical super powers. Don't feel bad, Jews and Muslims don't have any more evidence for their god than you do, and neither do their holy books.

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CALLED CIRCULAR REASONING.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Ktulu
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whirlwind wrote:Ktulu

whirlwind wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

 

I'm still being nice here... and the majority of people are being nice.  But atheism is not a religion, and we are not arrogant.  That's not a very Christian thing to do, accuse people unjustly, or maybe it is, it seems I'm quite ignorant of what a TRUE Christian is.  Smiling

Again, what does the word ATHEIST mean to you? and explain to me why you believe that atheism is a religion.

Perhaps you can explain what the word RELIGION means to you as well.

 

 

 

My use of the "arrogance" word was in response to a posters use of the word when describing my beliefs.  I didn't mean it to be said in a nasty way...

 

The word atheist means to me?  Godless. 

 

Why do I believe atheism is a religion?  I don't know if I can answer that...I just do.

 

The word religion means to me...a waste of time. 

 

Perhaps my thoughts on that tell me why I see atheism as a religion.  A waste of time, for all religions are of man, by man, for man.  They separate...section off people from each other.

Well, thank you for responding to me, I understand that you have a lot to read, it's a bit one sided in here Smiling.

Atheist doesn't mean godless, it means not a theist.  Godless is a word with a lot of baggage, you most likely equate it with sinful or a attach a negative connotation to it.  Every human is born as an atheist, meaning not a theist.  Theist is defined as someone that believes at least one deity exists.  I don't believe that any deity that humanity has every imagined and wrote stories about exists.  That makes me an atheist.  Smiling 

I hope that clears it up a little.  I am very open to the idea of god, and I hold a hope that a deity exists, but it has to be proven empirically in order for me to believe that's the case.

The only thing myself and the other atheists have in common is this fact alone, we have no rituals, we have no doctrine, and we have no central atheistic literature equivalent to the bible.  I'm not sure how you think this is a waste of time.  I could say that since you do not collect old coins is also a waste of time.  Or if you DO NOT play golf, then you waste time.  It makes no sense what so ever.  

Actually, your reply is really really weak.  I mean, even in contrast with your other replies, perhaps you should stick to the bible?

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


whirlwind
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BobSpence1 wrote:I have no

BobSpence1 wrote:

I have no problem with 'spirituality' in the orginal, basic sense of awe and wonder at contemplating the Universe, our existence, our nature and our society, etc.

Religion tries to take ownership of those basic feelings, and perverts them for its own purpose.

If you read widely enough beyond the outdated words of the Bible, as I and most everyone else here have, you may realize that there is a far grander reality beyond the limited world of those ancient myths.

The ego of the believer in thinking they have access to a supreme 'truth' through an exercise of the imagination is truly enormous, contrasted with the humility of the Atheist who acknowledges the limitations of our minds in apprehending truth without the help of empirical study and evidence.

 

 

 

Religion does take ownership....perhaps then it would be best to stay away from religion?

 

The Words are not outdated.  The Words are truth and life.

 

 

 

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