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whirlwind
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Hello

Good Day. 

 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

.

 

 

 


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Hello, welcome to the forum.

Hello, welcome to the forum.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Welcome to the forum. 

Welcome to the forum. 


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Thank you. May I ask, when

Thank you.

 

May I ask, when responding to a post...how do I subscribe to it?


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whirlwind wrote:Thank

whirlwind wrote:

Thank you.

 

May I ask, when responding to a post...how do I subscribe to it?

Hmmm.

There should be a "Subscribe Post" link underneath the original post.

When creating a new post, there should be a check-box you can select or de-select to subscribe to it.

However, I think when you just do a reply or quote, there's no obvious way to do it at the same time as you are composing/posting the reply. Just click the 'subscribe post' link under the OP after you've replied.

Also, there's the Recent Posts link on the nav bar to the left, which makes it easy to keep on top of the latest posts on the entire forum.

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If you click on your

If you click on your username, then click on "track", then you'll see the topics you posted in and the same goes if you click on another user's name.

 

 


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Welcome to the forums.......

 

 

 

 

 

                      ................and what kind of christian art thouist?  Canadian atheists here, eh?

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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whirlwind
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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

                      ................and what kind of christian art thouist?  Canadian atheists here, eh?

 

 

 

I art a child of God kind of Christian.  (American...deep South, ya'll)


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Welcome Brother!That's the

Welcome Brother!

That's the kind I was, in NC. They call us "charismatic" categorically. We called ourselves the"Holiness" faith, and detracters called us "Holy Rollers", to which we responded, "I'd rather Roll into Heaven rather than slide into Hell!"

That sound familiar? Or were your folk different?


whirlwind
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beardedinlair wrote:Welcome

beardedinlair wrote:

Welcome Brother!

That's the kind I was, in NC. They call us "charismatic" categorically. We called ourselves the"Holiness" faith, and detracters called us "Holy Rollers", to which we responded, "I'd rather Roll into Heaven rather than slide into Hell!"

That sound familiar? Or were your folk different?

 

 

Very different.  My mother was a fallen away Catholic while dad never commented on anything about God.  We went to church once or twice a year. 

 

I still don't go to church but I do study, I do believe and I am a Christian. 

 

Thank you for the welcome.  


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Hello and welcome

whirlwind wrote:
I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

So what about Christianity seems to hold more water then any other religion for you? As a life long atheist, it's hard for me to grasp what draws people to specific religions, or supernatural thinking in general, so all I can do to get a better understanding of the situation is to ask. I'm curious about what things you think Christianity got right while all the others religions and gods (Allah, Krishna, Buddha, Thor, Zeus, etc.) got them wrong. Why do you think Christianity is correct and not some other faith?

whirlwind wrote:
I hope there will be interesting discussions.

I hope so too.

"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!


Brian37
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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

beardedinlair wrote:

Welcome Brother!

That's the kind I was, in NC. They call us "charismatic" categorically. We called ourselves the"Holiness" faith, and detracters called us "Holy Rollers", to which we responded, "I'd rather Roll into Heaven rather than slide into Hell!"

That sound familiar? Or were your folk different?

 

Very different.  My mother was a fallen away Catholic while dad never commented on anything about God.  We went to church once or twice a year. 

 

I still don't go to church but I do study, I do believe and I am a Christian. 

 

Thank you for the welcome.  

I am going to give you the same speech I give all theists upon coming here. We know you believe, you have already said that. We may end up liking you as an individual, we don't know, you have only posted here for a day.

This website is primarily as an oasis for atheists. Believers OF ALL LABELS are welcome here. But just to warn you ahead of time, we won't simply go "isn't that nice". We do ask hard and even blasphemous questions about your claims.

This is about your claims NOT YOU.


Some here will take a library approach to you, others, like me, are not afraid of a boxing ring. Treat us all as individuals and UNDERSTAND again, that this is NOT about you, we don't know you personally.

If you expect to spend any time here you will read things you are not used to hearing and may offend you, But the attacks we make that "offend you" are about your claims, NOT YOU the person.

Look at it this way.

If someone came up to you and said, "The moon is made of cheese"

You might think to yourself, "bullshit".

If someone claimed, "The Chargers won the super bowl"

And I responded, "Bullshit, the Packers did"

Am I expressing hate for the person, or am I calling them out on their error?

We look at your claims AND all claims that lack evidence equally. To us, if you claimed UFOs or Loc Ness or Ouija boards were credible claims, we will respond with criticism of such claims and even blasphemy of such claims.

We promise you we are not singling you out nor do we hate you. But what comes out of your mouth does not deserve respect, "just because"

My mother for example may love me, but I know darn well she doesn't like everything I say or do. Same with my co-workers and friends.

What IS important to us is what you claim your evidence is for your position. This has NOTHING to do with you as a person, just the claims you make.

I hope this helps. Just treat us all as individuals and don't take our criticism personally, just try to learn from what you read here. If it changes nothing about your position, it should at a minimum allow you to see that we are not the stereotypes far too many make us out to be.

Welcome.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Welcome, I look forward to

Welcome, I look forward to disagreeing with you on religion, and hopefully agreeing on most other things.  Smiling

Have fun, it is an interesting place.

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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B166ER wrote:whirlwind

B166ER wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

So what about Christianity seems to hold more water then any other religion for you? As a life long atheist, it's hard for me to grasp what draws people to specific religions, or supernatural thinking in general, so all I can do to get a better understanding of the situation is to ask. I'm curious about what things you think Christianity got right while all the others religions and gods (Allah, Krishna, Buddha, Thor, Zeus, etc.) got them wrong. Why do you think Christianity is correct and not some other faith?

whirlwind wrote:
I hope there will be interesting discussions.

I hope so too.

 

 

I don't consider Christianity to be a religion...it is a way of life.

Thinking in a supernatural way, or seeing in a supernatural way, is knowing God.  I first saw, really saw, His creation and that drew me to Him.  Now He teaches me through His Word.  He lives in me.....

 

 


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Ktulu wrote:Welcome, I look

Ktulu wrote:

Welcome, I look forward to disagreeing with you on religion, and hopefully agreeing on most other things.  Smiling

Have fun, it is an interesting place.

 

 

 

I seldom discuss religion(s).  I enjoy discussing His teaching.  Thank you for the welcome. 


whirlwind
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Brian37 wrote:whirlwind

Brian37 wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

beardedinlair wrote:

Welcome Brother!

That's the kind I was, in NC. They call us "charismatic" categorically. We called ourselves the"Holiness" faith, and detracters called us "Holy Rollers", to which we responded, "I'd rather Roll into Heaven rather than slide into Hell!"

That sound familiar? Or were your folk different?

 

Very different.  My mother was a fallen away Catholic while dad never commented on anything about God.  We went to church once or twice a year. 

 

I still don't go to church but I do study, I do believe and I am a Christian. 

 

Thank you for the welcome.  

I am going to give you the same speech I give all theists upon coming here. We know you believe, you have already said that. We may end up liking you as an individual, we don't know, you have only posted here for a day.

This website is primarily as an oasis for atheists. Believers OF ALL LABELS are welcome here. But just to warn you ahead of time, we won't simply go "isn't that nice". We do ask hard and even blasphemous questions about your claims.

This is about your claims NOT YOU.


 

Some here will take a library approach to you, others, like me, are not afraid of a boxing ring. Treat us all as individuals and UNDERSTAND again, that this is NOT about you, we don't know you personally.

If you expect to spend any time here you will read things you are not used to hearing and may offend you, But the attacks we make that "offend you" are about your claims, NOT YOU the person.

Look at it this way.

If someone came up to you and said, "The moon is made of cheese"

You might think to yourself, "bullshit".

If someone claimed, "The Chargers won the super bowl"

And I responded, "Bullshit, the Packers did"

Am I expressing hate for the person, or am I calling them out on their error?

We look at your claims AND all claims that lack evidence equally. To us, if you claimed UFOs or Loc Ness or Ouija boards were credible claims, we will respond with criticism of such claims and even blasphemy of such claims.

We promise you we are not singling you out nor do we hate you. But what comes out of your mouth does not deserve respect, "just because"

My mother for example may love me, but I know darn well she doesn't like everything I say or do. Same with my co-workers and friends.

What IS important to us is what you claim your evidence is for your position. This has NOTHING to do with you as a person, just the claims you make.

I hope this helps. Just treat us all as individuals and don't take our criticism personally, just try to learn from what you read here. If it changes nothing about your position, it should at a minimum allow you to see that we are not the stereotypes far too many make us out to be.

Welcome.

 

 

 

Understood and accepted.  I would add...please try to learn from what you read from me too.  

 

Thank you for your welcome. 


Atheistextremist
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Hi Whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence. Ultimately these discussions come down to the old 'is not/is too' position with the godly insisting that evolution is a lie, the lord exists outside this space time and we all argue because we crave a life of sin. It's quite pathetic. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence. Ultimately these discussions come down to the old 'is not/is too' position with the godly insisting that evolution is a lie, the lord exists outside this space time and we all argue because we crave a life of sin. It's quite pathetic. 

 

 

 

     Hee hee.  That was an awesomely accurate characterization Ae.   It made me laugh.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

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Atheistextremist
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Crumbs, Whirlwind.

whirlwind wrote:

 

Thinking in a supernatural way, or seeing in a supernatural way, is knowing God.  I first saw, really saw, His creation and that drew me to Him.  Now He teaches me through His Word.  He lives in me.....

 

 

I'm sorry to hear your life is based on an assertion.

I saw life on earth first and fully when I realised I was a colony of cooperative single celled organisms that had evolved by chance in a boring neighborhood on the outskirts of a dull galaxy. Now I read most every new discovery about life and the universe I possibly can and debatable truth lives in me.

The amazingness of a sentient existence in this place and being raised in a group have taught me awe and morality - just as they have you - misdirect your humanity as you will. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:
...

The amazingness of a sentient existence in this place and being raised in a group have taught me awe and morality - ... 

This gives me hope and makes me feel better. I hope you mean it.


Atheistextremist
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Hi Bearded

beardedinlair wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
...

The amazingness of a sentient existence in this place and being raised in a group have taught me awe and morality - ... 

This gives me hope and makes me feel better. I hope you mean it.

 

Hope you're doing ok today. I wasn't trying to 'mean it' especially. This is simply the clear and observable truth. Positing supernatural causes for anything, entertaining though this may be, has no basis in knowable fact.  

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:I'm

Atheistextremist wrote:

I'm sorry to hear your life is based on an assertion.

I saw life on earth first and fully when I realised I was a colony of cooperative single celled organisms that had evolved by chance in a boring neighborhood on the outskirts of a dull galaxy. Now I read most every new discovery about life and the universe I possibly can and debatable truth lives in me.

The amazingness of a sentient existence in this place and being raised in a group have taught me awe and morality - just as they have you - misdirect your humanity as you will. 

I like this Smiling

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


Brian37
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whirlwind wrote:Brian37

whirlwind wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

beardedinlair wrote:

Welcome Brother!

That's the kind I was, in NC. They call us "charismatic" categorically. We called ourselves the"Holiness" faith, and detracters called us "Holy Rollers", to which we responded, "I'd rather Roll into Heaven rather than slide into Hell!"

That sound familiar? Or were your folk different?

 

Very different.  My mother was a fallen away Catholic while dad never commented on anything about God.  We went to church once or twice a year. 

 

I still don't go to church but I do study, I do believe and I am a Christian. 

 

Thank you for the welcome.  

I am going to give you the same speech I give all theists upon coming here. We know you believe, you have already said that. We may end up liking you as an individual, we don't know, you have only posted here for a day.

This website is primarily as an oasis for atheists. Believers OF ALL LABELS are welcome here. But just to warn you ahead of time, we won't simply go "isn't that nice". We do ask hard and even blasphemous questions about your claims.

This is about your claims NOT YOU.


 

Some here will take a library approach to you, others, like me, are not afraid of a boxing ring. Treat us all as individuals and UNDERSTAND again, that this is NOT about you, we don't know you personally.

If you expect to spend any time here you will read things you are not used to hearing and may offend you, But the attacks we make that "offend you" are about your claims, NOT YOU the person.

Look at it this way.

If someone came up to you and said, "The moon is made of cheese"

You might think to yourself, "bullshit".

If someone claimed, "The Chargers won the super bowl"

And I responded, "Bullshit, the Packers did"

Am I expressing hate for the person, or am I calling them out on their error?

We look at your claims AND all claims that lack evidence equally. To us, if you claimed UFOs or Loc Ness or Ouija boards were credible claims, we will respond with criticism of such claims and even blasphemy of such claims.

We promise you we are not singling you out nor do we hate you. But what comes out of your mouth does not deserve respect, "just because"

My mother for example may love me, but I know darn well she doesn't like everything I say or do. Same with my co-workers and friends.

What IS important to us is what you claim your evidence is for your position. This has NOTHING to do with you as a person, just the claims you make.

I hope this helps. Just treat us all as individuals and don't take our criticism personally, just try to learn from what you read here. If it changes nothing about your position, it should at a minimum allow you to see that we are not the stereotypes far too many make us out to be.

Welcome.

 

 

 

Understood and accepted.  I would add...please try to learn from what you read from me too.  

 

Thank you for your welcome. 

I'll try, but my 9 year experience of debate online the only new things I learn from theists is how they re package their arguments. We are tough to please as far as evidence is concerned. We don't simply buy the car because it is a pretty cherry red, we look under the hood too.

You have stepped into the lions den here. We will knock your claims around. Just warning you.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


whirlwind
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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence. Ultimately these discussions come down to the old 'is not/is too' position with the godly insisting that evolution is a lie, the lord exists outside this space time and we all argue because we crave a life of sin. It's quite pathetic. 

 

 

It is difficult for the two, the supernatural and the natural, to come together. 

 

  • 1 Corinthians 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  •  
  • 2:13-14  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's widom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spirtual things with spiritual.   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

Hopefully, discussions of the spiritual vs. natural will provide understanding.

 

I don't think you (at least not all of you ) crave a life of sin.

 

 

.

 

 

 


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

Thinking in a supernatural way, or seeing in a supernatural way, is knowing God.  I first saw, really saw, His creation and that drew me to Him.  Now He teaches me through His Word.  He lives in me.....

 

 

I'm sorry to hear your life is based on an assertion.

I saw life on earth first and fully when I realised I was a colony of cooperative single celled organisms that had evolved by chance in a boring neighborhood on the outskirts of a dull galaxy. Now I read most every new discovery about life and the universe I possibly can and debatable truth lives in me.

The amazingness of a sentient existence in this place and being raised in a group have taught me awe and morality - just as they have you - misdirect your humanity as you will. 

 

 

  My life isn't based on assertion but rather on truth. 

 

Even if you had not been "raised in a group," where you were taught "awe and morality" your soul would make decisions....

  • Romans 2:11-15 For there is no respect of persons with God.  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:  and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained n the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one anotherEye-wink

So, even if not taught morality...one would either do or not do what they know "by nature" to be good or evil. 

 

 

.

 


whirlwind
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Brian37 wrote:I'll try, but

Brian37 wrote:

I'll try, but my 9 year experience of debate online the only new things I learn from theists is how they re package their arguments. We are tough to please as far as evidence is concerned. We don't simply buy the car because it is a pretty cherry red, we look under the hood too.

You have stepped into the lions den here. We will knock your claims around. Just warning you.

 

 

 

Evidence is all around you...the problem is in recognizing it for what it is.  We simply accept the wonder of this world without wondering.  Instead we attribute it to some strange happenstance.

 

We should all "look under the hood" of Christianity and atheism.  One is truth.  One is life.

 

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death;  but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

As for stepping into the lion's den...

 

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy:  and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

 

A group of lions you may be but even if you turn into an enemy...I don't worry.

 

 

 

 

 

 


TGBaker
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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

 

Thinking in a supernatural way, or seeing in a supernatural way, is knowing God.  I first saw, really saw, His creation and that drew me to Him.  Now He teaches me through His Word.  He lives in me.....

 

 

I'm sorry to hear your life is based on an assertion.

I saw life on earth first and fully when I realised I was a colony of cooperative single celled organisms that had evolved by chance in a boring neighborhood on the outskirts of a dull galaxy. Now I read most every new discovery about life and the universe I possibly can and debatable truth lives in me.

The amazingness of a sentient existence in this place and being raised in a group have taught me awe and morality - just as they have you - misdirect your humanity as you will. 

 

 

  My life isn't based on assertion but rather on truth. 

 

Even if you had not been "raised in a group," where you were taught "awe and morality" your soul would make decisions....

  • Romans 2:11-15 For there is no respect of persons with God.  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:  and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained n the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one anotherEye-wink

So, even if not taught morality...one would either do or not do what they know "by nature" to be good or evil. 

 

 

.

 

I think what Paul mistakes as a natural theology in which the non-favored still intuit a divine law is really an innate nature of mammals that reache real secular morality in homo sapien once language develops as a tool for his reason.That a secular non-religious morality exits can be seen by the fact that we do not follow through with the obvious barbaric aspects of religious ethic and mores.  We do not stone a woman who loses her virginity before marriage or a disobiedient child before the village. We protest things that god commanded in the OT like killing a whole population including theinfants and children but sparing virgins for the "elects" own use. We are outraged to think about a fathe offering his daughters to be raped in order to protect a man from being sexually abused. These things though claimed as from god simply reflect a primitive barbaric nomadic culture that happened to make good and left us with its superstitions.   Fundementalists are right if their religion is true you should blow up abortion clinics, kill their doctors and execute homosexuals. Fortuntely your religion is false and not often adhered to. A secular morality that is somewhat corrupted by religious superstition does. Our intent is to create a  truly humane morality that ultimately must rid itself of the superstitions that infect its functioning.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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Brian37
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Quote:Evidence is all around

Quote:
Evidence is all around you...the problem is in recognizing it for what it is.  We simply accept the wonder of this world without wondering.  Instead we attribute it to some strange happenstance.

This is a very simplistic and childish view of the world. Remember that I am attacking the claim, not you.

I am not saying you are being childish. I am saying that the view is outdated and born out of ignorance. It is like claiming Santa to be real because there are presents under the tree. You outgrew that and you can grow out of your god belief as well.

I see lots of "wonder" in the world and universe. Bob Spence here blew my mind away when he told me about one of the largest suns in the universe. It's surface if we replaced our sun with it, would extend out past Saturn.

What I don't do, which you do, is assign life to magic and ancient myth.

I see the wonder in my cat when he curls up on my lap, but the reality is that he will die someday. Knowing that he will die doesn't involve good or evil, much less magic or myth. Nor does it take away the enjoyment I have now while he is alive.

The good I see in life does not cause me to ignore the bad. AND NEITHER  are caused by a cosmic comic book battle between a man in a white robe vs a man with a pitchfork.

You don't need belief in your god any more than the Egyptians needed to believe the sun was a god that cared about them. You simply think you do because the idea of having a super hero is appealing to you. The problem is that there is no such thing as a super hero.

That does not mean that there is no value in life. It does not mean that we cant be good or do good. It just means we don't need to insert superstition in as an answer.

People once held the popular belief that the earth was flat. That ignorance was childish and at the same time prevented them from finding the truth. It was only when people refused to simply accept "what feels good at the time" THAT we questioned set beliefs and social norms and uncovered the truth to reality.

The emotion of feeling things is natural, but is immature when it is not measured by taking oneself outside personal bias and actually testing what is around you to insure quality of data. Kids believe in Santa, not because Santa is real, but because of the emotional appeal and their immaturity allows the parents to sell that to them.

It was understandable long ago that people held superstitions in polytheism and monotheism because people were not scientifically mature, much less psychologically introspective. But with doctors today, and cell phones and putting man on the moon, I find no need to try to  measure reality with ancient myth.

Even Einstien called the Abrahamic book "Childish". He wasn't calling the people who follow that god childish, just that humanity has come a long way since that book was written and it needs to be scrapped for the better data we have now.

I said I was going to knock your claims around. I am simply trying to point out to you that you don't need a fictional being to see prettiness or have a "sense of awe". You've lived without Vishnu and Thor quite fine and you don't need any form of Santa for adults.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence. Ultimately these discussions come down to the old 'is not/is too' position with the godly insisting that evolution is a lie, the lord exists outside this space time and we all argue because we crave a life of sin. It's quite pathetic. 

 

 

It is difficult for the two, the supernatural and the natural, to come together. 

 

  • 1 Corinthians 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  •  
  • 2:13-14  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's widom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spirtual things with spiritual.   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

Hopefully, discussions of the spiritual vs. natural will provide understanding.

 

I don't think you (at least not all of you ) crave a life of sin.

 

 

.

 

 

 

I don't think that many of us who are atheists would acept a category of spiritual at least in a supernatural of Cartesian dualistic sense.  The universe seems to be a monism. The idea of spirit goes back to prehistoric times when "ruach", Hebrew fro breath, wind and spirit; pneuma New Testament Greek for breath, wind air spirit were all viewed the same. The ancients believed in four elements and that which could not be seen but felt nonetheless was considered  that which left the body at death. And it does but it is only air. We find similar originations from Indo-Eurpean langauge such as beu meaning breath which became our word "be". Isha breath becomes is. Our language is contains these ancient fossils that flavor our speech unconciously with a primitive physics and metaphysics that are no longer warranted. That we "sin" Greek New Testament harmatia is an old archers term that simply means the missing of the mark.  That it is specialized with a mythic fall and inherited evil ot propensity to evil (depending on which of the 30,000 variations of Chrisitian systems or denomination) simply reflects a superstitious belief that bad things happen to you because you screwed up.  A secular missing of the mark is simply not actively decreasing suffering in this world whther your own, your family of society.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TGBaker wrote: I think what

TGBaker wrote:

 I think what Paul mistakes as a natural theology in which the non-favored still intuit a divine law is really an innate nature of mammals that reache real secular morality in homo sapien once language develops as a tool for his reason.That a secular non-religious morality exits can be seen by the fact that we do not follow through with the obvious barbaric aspects of religious ethic and mores.  We do not stone a woman who loses her virginity before marriage or a disobiedient child before the village. We protest things that god commanded in the OT like killing a whole population including theinfants and children but sparing virgins for the "elects" own use. We are outraged to think about a fathe offering his daughters to be raped in order to protect a man from being sexually abused. These things though claimed as from god simply reflect a primitive barbaric nomadic culture that happened to make good and left us with its superstitions.   Fundementalists are right if their religion is true you should blow up abortion clinics, kill their doctors and execute homosexuals. Fortuntely your religion is false and not often adhered to. A secular morality that is somewhat corrupted by religious superstition does. Our intent is to create a  truly humane morality that ultimately must rid itself of the superstitions that infect its functioning.

 

 

How's that working for 'ya...the "truly humane morality" part? 

 

I don't have "a religion," but I do know God.  There are things in the Bible that are hard to be understood and some that are explained after study.  He gives us wisdom and knowledge as we mature and with it comes understanding.

 

 

.

 

 

.


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whirlwind wrote:Hopefully,

whirlwind wrote:

Hopefully, discussions of the spiritual vs. natural will provide understanding.

 

I don't think you (at least not all of you ) crave a life of sin.

 

Realize there are a lot of us who used to be some flavor of religious and have stopped believing because we just couldn't suspend our disbelief and "have faith".  I grew out of needing imaginary friends a long time ago.

And I'm too freaking old to live a life of sin, more's the pity.  I have to reduce my alcohol consumption because of the blood sugar tendency to rise.  I have to watch what I eat.  I have osteoarthritis and so I can't dance all night and sex is a gingerly careful dance anymore.  I really did turn 60 this year, I really am female and menopausal, and I have been known to be cranky on a bad day.

Other than all that TMI, welcome from Portland, OR, which really is a wonderful place to live.

And if you are more curious about any religious views I may have, I've been atheist - not agnostic - for the last 30 odd years.  I have tried the religious BS before and it is just too stressful to waste my time on what is obviously not true.

 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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most everything you produce

most everything you produce is biblical. you were taught the bible. you were taught god. take away the god construction you were taught and you might, and probably would still have awe and wonder. that might be considered god, but the point is you can and would have the awe and wonder and even maybe an innate sense of right and wrong without having to use a book and mental construct called god.

even the concept of sin and sinning is a feeling that doesn't need the bible to define it.

can you acknowledge you would still have these feelings even if you didn't have a bible defining what they might be?


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whirlwind wrote:TGBaker

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 I think what Paul mistakes as a natural theology in which the non-favored still intuit a divine law is really an innate nature of mammals that reache real secular morality in homo sapien once language develops as a tool for his reason.That a secular non-religious morality exits can be seen by the fact that we do not follow through with the obvious barbaric aspects of religious ethic and mores.  We do not stone a woman who loses her virginity before marriage or a disobiedient child before the village. We protest things that god commanded in the OT like killing a whole population including theinfants and children but sparing virgins for the "elects" own use. We are outraged to think about a fathe offering his daughters to be raped in order to protect a man from being sexually abused. These things though claimed as from god simply reflect a primitive barbaric nomadic culture that happened to make good and left us with its superstitions.   Fundementalists are right if their religion is true you should blow up abortion clinics, kill their doctors and execute homosexuals. Fortuntely your religion is false and not often adhered to. A secular morality that is somewhat corrupted by religious superstition does. Our intent is to create a  truly humane morality that ultimately must rid itself of the superstitions that infect its functioning.

 

 

How's that working for 'ya...the "truly humane morality" part? 

 

I don't have "a religion," but I do know God.  There are things in the Bible that are hard to be understood and some that are explained after study.  He gives us wisdom and knowledge as we mature and with it comes understanding.

 

 

.

 

 

.

It works fine. My degrees are in theology and Bible. I have a specialization in the historical jesus.  Morality as you hinted from Paul is quite natural. As far as those things being hard to understand. They aren't really...they just do not correspond to the contemporary idea of a Judeo-Christian god. Those things are quite consistant with the barbaric Yahweh and Eloistic origins of the Western concepts of theism. The texts state what they state and show what they show.  Nothing hard from our position but does not correspond to theism very well does it. So perhaps it is hard for you to understand from your presuppositions and beliefs.

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:Evidence

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Evidence is all around you...the problem is in recognizing it for what it is.  We simply accept the wonder of this world without wondering.  Instead we attribute it to some strange happenstance.

This is a very simplistic and childish view of the world. Remember that I am attacking the claim, not you.

I am not saying you are being childish. I am saying that the view is outdated and born out of ignorance. It is like claiming Santa to be real because there are presents under the tree. You outgrew that and you can grow out of your god belief as well.

 

I don't feel that you are attacking me.  Perhaps the view is childish and simplistic but...that is as it should be:

 

  • 11 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
  •  
  • Luke 18:17  Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

 

I can't outgrow a belief when I am growing stronger in it each day. 

 

 

Quote:

I see lots of "wonder" in the world and universe. Bob Spence here blew my mind away when he told me about one of the largest suns in the universe. It's surface if we replaced our sun with it, would extend out past Saturn.

What I don't do, which you do, is assign life to magic and ancient myth.

I see the wonder in my cat when he curls up on my lap, but the reality is that he will die someday. Knowing that he will die doesn't involve good or evil, much less magic or myth. Nor does it take away the enjoyment I have now while he is alive.

 

 

You're right...death doesn't involve good or evil, it simply is part of life and life is good to enjoy:

 

  • Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

 

However...while still living physically we are either spiritually dead or spiritually alive.  One He gives us, the other He offers us.  Life isn't magic or myth.  Life is God given:

 

  • John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, "I am the resurrection, and the life:  he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live;  And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die, Believest thou this?" 

 

 

Quote:
The good I see in life does not cause me to ignore the bad. AND NEITHER  are caused by a cosmic comic book battle between a man in a white robe vs a man with a pitchfork.

 

 

  We're capable of good and bad on our own.

 

 

Quote:
You don't need belief in your god any more than the Egyptians needed to believe the sun was a god that cared about them. You simply think you do because the idea of having a super hero is appealing to you. The problem is that there is no such thing as a super hero.

That does not mean that there is no value in life. It does not mean that we cant be good or do good. It just means we don't need to insert superstition in as an answer.

People once held the popular belief that the earth was flat. That ignorance was childish and at the same time prevented them from finding the truth. It was only when people refused to simply accept "what feels good at the time" THAT we questioned set beliefs and social norms and uncovered the truth to reality.

The emotion of feeling things is natural, but is immature when it is not measured by taking oneself outside personal bias and actually testing what is around you to insure quality of data. Kids believe in Santa, not because Santa is real, but because of the emotional appeal and their immaturity allows the parents to sell that to them.

It was understandable long ago that people held superstitions in polytheism and monotheism because people were not scientifically mature, much less psychologically introspective. But with doctors today, and cell phones and putting man on the moon, I find no need to try to  measure reality with ancient myth.

Even Einstien called the Abrahamic book "Childish". He wasn't calling the people who follow that god childish, just that humanity has come a long way since that book was written and it needs to be scrapped for the better data we have now.

 

 

 

There are deep mysteries in the Bible and today's science doesn't refute anything therein.  Truth is truth...it was in the beginning as it is today.

 

 

Quote:

I said I was going to knock your claims around. I am simply trying to point out to you that you don't need a fictional being to see prettiness or have a "sense of awe". You've lived without Vishnu and Thor quite fine and you don't need any form of Santa for adults.

  

 

 

None of us need anything "fictional" in our lives.  We need truth and that isn't found in atheism. 

 

 

 

.


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whirlwind wrote:... We need

whirlwind wrote:
... 

We need truth and that isn't found in atheism. 

.

Hah! too funny. I think you mean Truth, as in Bible Truth. And that is ...uh, true.


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whirlwind wrote:TGBaker

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 I think what Paul mistakes as a natural theology in which the non-favored still intuit a divine law is really an innate nature of mammals that reache real secular morality in homo sapien once language develops as a tool for his reason.That a secular non-religious morality exits can be seen by the fact that we do not follow through with the obvious barbaric aspects of religious ethic and mores.  We do not stone a woman who loses her virginity before marriage or a disobiedient child before the village. We protest things that god commanded in the OT like killing a whole population including theinfants and children but sparing virgins for the "elects" own use. We are outraged to think about a fathe offering his daughters to be raped in order to protect a man from being sexually abused. These things though claimed as from god simply reflect a primitive barbaric nomadic culture that happened to make good and left us with its superstitions.   Fundementalists are right if their religion is true you should blow up abortion clinics, kill their doctors and execute homosexuals. Fortuntely your religion is false and not often adhered to. A secular morality that is somewhat corrupted by religious superstition does. Our intent is to create a  truly humane morality that ultimately must rid itself of the superstitions that infect its functioning.

 

 

How's that working for 'ya...the "truly humane morality" part? 

 

I don't have "a religion," but I do know God.  There are things in the Bible that are hard to be understood and some that are explained after study.  He gives us wisdom and knowledge as we mature and with it comes understanding.

 

 

.

 

 

.


We know that you say you believe in a God. We know you use the bible as evidence.

What is the issue is the fact that the bible was written by ignorant people(by ignorant, I mean, didn't have modern tools to measure reality), It was written over 1,000 year period by over 40 authors with books left out.

What I am trying to point out to you is that YOU DON'T NEED THAT ancient book of myth. You simply like the idea of a super hero. Some people find comfort in belief in Allah, so?

You live fine without belief in Vishnu and Thor and the Christian god is merely another tradition myth. None of the bible is reliable and it is not even a good model of morality and any good motifs in it can be appreciated without the myth or the book.

I can find the morals in Harry Potter and Star Wars nice without believing that little boys fly around on brooms or that the "Force" is a real thing.

FACT,  it takes TWO sets of DNA to manifest into a zygote. Thus making claims of virgin births bogus.

FACT, human flesh does not survive rigor mortis, thus making rising from the dead claims bogus.

Being kind to your neighbor and not steeling SHOULD BE A "NO DUH" to everyone, so the bible is not needed to gauge even morality.

Much less, even before you get to the bible you have problems with the omimax concept of a god, AND the problem that thoughts do not occur outside a material process. Thus making ANY claim of a thinking being with no material or location, an absurd claim.

You have tons of problems in the bible, but you haven't even gotten past the core concept of an invisible brain with magic super powers BY ANY NAME, even before you get to the bible.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Quote:Perhaps the view is

Quote:
Perhaps the view is childish and simplistic but...that is as it should be:

So you like the fact that your bible promotes ignorance and says you should be satisfied with not knowing?

I am so glad some humans didn't say, "That moon is pretty, but we will never get there because we will never know how to get there"

I am glad some humans didn't say, "How do those birds fly, they sure our pretty, we don't need to find out how we can get up into the air"

I am glad we still don't believe that the sun is a god.

"wonder" or "sense of awe" is NOT childish by itself. It is childish when it prevents you from investigation.

If humans always went with "Thats the way it is" we never would have left the caves.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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beardedinlair wrote:most

beardedinlair wrote:

most everything you produce is biblical. you were taught the bible. you were taught god. take away the god construction you were taught and you might, and probably would still have awe and wonder. that might be considered god, but the point is you can and would have the awe and wonder and even maybe an innate sense of right and wrong without having to use a book and mental construct called god.

even the concept of sin and sinning is a feeling that doesn't need the bible to define it.

can you acknowledge you would still have these feelings even if you didn't have a bible defining what they might be?

 

 

I do acknowledge the innate sense of right and wrong without the written Word.   I wrote that in a previous post when I quoted [Romans 2:11-15] in #24.  That is God given.  We don't have to know how to read in order to love Him.  I knew God before I was taught God.  I didn't worship Him, I didn't understand Him, I questioned His very existence...but I felt Him.  I knew right and wrong...not the finer points, but certainly good vs. evil.

 

Then...I read His letter and He teaches me.  I have never looked back.

 

  • 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:  but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.

 

 

 .

 

 


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TGBaker wrote:  It works

TGBaker wrote:

 

 It works fine. My degrees are in theology and Bible. I have a specialization in the historical jesus.  Morality as you hinted from Paul is quite natural. As far as those things being hard to understand. They aren't really...they just do not correspond to the contemporary idea of a Judeo-Christian god. Those things are quite consistant with the barbaric Yahweh and Eloistic origins of the Western concepts of theism. The texts state what they state and show what they show.  Nothing hard from our position but does not correspond to theism very well does it. So perhaps it is hard for you to understand from your presuppositions and beliefs.

 

I congratulate you on your degrees however it shows only that you are intelligent enough to read and pass exams.   I do not mean that in an unkind way.  Reading something and understanding something are not the same.  I read the Bible three times and never got diddly out of it.  Now...I see.

 

 

  • 11 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

 

 

 

 


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Hello,giving you a late

Hello,

giving you a late welcome to the forum.

 

Just a little suggestion if I may.  As atheists, we do not take the bible literally.  So throwing out verses at us, as if those verses are the final authority in justifying how right you are, and how wrong we are, will not get you anywhere.

 

The old, "because the bible says so" crap will not work here.......nice try though. 

 

To be a devout Christian, does this imply that you have no belief in any of these Gods.......?? The following link provides a resource for nearly every belief and every diety ever concieved by man.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

 

 

If you reject all of these other "Gods", then you are an Atheist.  Congratulations!

 

 

If you have any evidence other than the bible, and your own hallucinations that your God exists,  by all means, enlighten us.

 

 

mr. O

 

 

"Whoever feels predestined to see and not to believe will find all believers too noisy and pushy: he guards against them."

Friedrich Nietzsche


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beardedinlair

beardedinlair wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
... 

We need truth and that isn't found in atheism. 

.

Hah! too funny. I think you mean Truth, as in Bible Truth. And that is ...uh, true.

 

There cannot be a truth of the Bible and another truth of atheism.  There is one truth. 

 

 

 


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Welcome

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

Welcome to the forums.

I see you already got your wish for discussions. Whether they will be interesting or not is still uncertain.

So far, you are quote pulling from the bible which is something we have seen from  about every theist that comes here. I realize you think it is meaningful, it's not though. I don't hold much hope for anything meaningful to come from you if that is your plan of attack.

As Brian has probably already told you, I know he's real, he's real, Santa left me presents, he did, he did.

Same thing, different myth.

That's how you are sounding.

Perhaps you have something else to present, I'll wait and see.

Some of us as CJ told you were Christians and no longer believe.

Welcome anyway.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Brian37 wrote:  We know

Brian37 wrote:

 

 

We know that you say you believe in a God. We know you use the bible as evidence.

What is the issue is the fact that the bible was written by ignorant people(by ignorant, I mean, didn't have modern tools to measure reality), It was written over 1,000 year period by over 40 authors with books left out.

 

 

It was Divinely inspired by God over a long, long period and penned by different men which, to my mind...lets me know there was only One author. 

 

 

Quote:
What I am trying to point out to you is that YOU DON'T NEED THAT ancient book of myth. You simply like the idea of a super hero. Some people find comfort in belief in Allah, so?

You live fine without belief in Vishnu and Thor and the Christian god is merely another tradition myth. None of the bible is reliable and it is not even a good model of morality and any good motifs in it can be appreciated without the myth or the book.

I can find the morals in Harry Potter and Star Wars nice without believing that little boys fly around on brooms or that the "Force" is a real thing.

 

 

God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths. 

 

 

Quote:
FACT,  it takes TWO sets of DNA to manifest into a zygote. Thus making claims of virgin births bogus.

FACT, human flesh does not survive rigor mortis, thus making rising from the dead claims bogus.

Being kind to your neighbor and not steeling SHOULD BE A "NO DUH" to everyone, so the bible is not needed to gauge even morality.

Much less, even before you get to the bible you have problems with the omimax concept of a god, AND the problem that thoughts do not occur outside a material process. Thus making ANY claim of a thinking being with no material or location, an absurd claim.

You have tons of problems in the bible, but you haven't even gotten past the core concept of an invisible brain with magic super powers BY ANY NAME, even before you get to the bible.

 

 

 

There are what we humans consider problems in the Bible and problems are to be resolved.  Keep looking.

 

 

.


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whirlwind wrote:TGBaker

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 

 It works fine. My degrees are in theology and Bible. I have a specialization in the historical jesus.  Morality as you hinted from Paul is quite natural. As far as those things being hard to understand. They aren't really...they just do not correspond to the contemporary idea of a Judeo-Christian god. Those things are quite consistant with the barbaric Yahweh and Eloistic origins of the Western concepts of theism. The texts state what they state and show what they show.  Nothing hard from our position but does not correspond to theism very well does it. So perhaps it is hard for you to understand from your presuppositions and beliefs.

 

I congratulate you on your degrees however it shows only that you are intelligent enough to read and pass exams.   I do not mean that in an unkind way.  Reading something and understanding something are not the same.  I read the Bible three times and never got diddly out of it.  Now...I see.

 

 

  • 11 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Oh I understand it and even understand your belief system and faith since I once had it. However a non-biased study of the origins of the Bible, its culture and the obvious reworking of the gospels over  and over again to accomadate change in Christology is why I finally rejected "OUR" faith.  I studied under several New Testament scholars since my focus wass the "real" historical Jesus. I focused on the culture of 160 BCE to the counsel of Nicea, Church History and can tell you with certainty that the Christian faith ( whichever one you want to pick ) was recast and fabricaated over and over again. There was never one belief system from shortly after Jesus's death. Jesus was simply  a follower of John the Baptist and began a similar eschatological ministry after the Baptist was arrested.  ANd to finish you simply use the illegitimate arrogance of your on faith in the sited scripture which is not evidentiary and simply self serving mumbo-jumbo. I am right because  I am from god. I am from god because I am inerrant scripture completely circular and meaningless. Secondly the errors and contradictions of scripture are plentiful and even recognized and discussed inmany seminaries but buffered and kept from laity.

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Brian37 wrote:Quote:Perhaps

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps the view is childish and simplistic but...that is as it should be:

So you like the fact that your bible promotes ignorance and says you should be satisfied with not knowing?

I am so glad some humans didn't say, "That moon is pretty, but we will never get there because we will never know how to get there"

I am glad some humans didn't say, "How do those birds fly, they sure our pretty, we don't need to find out how we can get up into the air"

I am glad we still don't believe that the sun is a god.

"wonder" or "sense of awe" is NOT childish by itself. It is childish when it prevents you from investigation.

If humans always went with "Thats the way it is" we never would have left the caves.

 

 

 

Promotes ignorance?  Where do you read that?

 

Approaching faith by understanding it in a simplistic and childish way is the beginning but that must be the beginning.  Then, when we are able to understand, He feeds us meat....

 

  • 1 Corinthians 3:1-2  And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat:  for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

It's a process.

 

 

.

 


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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

beardedinlair wrote:

whirlwind wrote:
... 

We need truth and that isn't found in atheism. 

.

Hah! too funny. I think you mean Truth, as in Bible Truth. And that is ...uh, true.

 

There cannot be a truth of the Bible and another truth of atheism.  There is one truth. 

I don't think you know the definition of the word atheism... and to stay in the 'being nice' theme of this thread, I don't mean that in an unkind way. 

We are not theists, that's TRUE!.  How can there be no truth in atheism? What do you even mean by that?

 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


pauljohntheskeptic
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whirlwind wrote: It was

whirlwind wrote:

 

It was Divinely inspired by God over a long, long period and penned by different men which, to my mind...lets me know there was only One author.

The writing that has been called the Bible can't even be universally agreed upon as to what should be included, translations, or interpretations.

That you say you are a Christian indicates you reject the interpretations of the originators of the Bible, the Jews.

So why do you know more than those that created the stories?

As to if it was a group of 40 guys that created the stories or 5000 from myths, legends and storytelling is hard to transcend it into the god was the author.

The writing has Canaanite myths, Sumerian myths, and Egyptian myths rewritten into it, to fit the developing god myths of the people of Judah. The myths and stories of these other cultures are thousands of years older than the god myths of the Hebrews and Jews. The oldest storytelling from the Jews is found in the DSS, dated to the 2nd century BCE at best. While Sumerian stories date to 3500 BCE, as original documents.

whirlwind wrote:
 

God isn't a super hero to me.  The Bible isn't an ancient book of myths.

It is more a book of storytelling with legends and fables.

Pick any OT story and present your view for criticism.

whirlwind wrote:
 

 

There are what we humans consider problems in the Bible and problems are to be resolved.  Keep looking.

What is to be resolved? That 3 men can walk into a furnace and live? That snakes and donkeys talk?

Not to mention the mythical invasion of Palestine by the Hebrews, which has no support and countless problems.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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whirlwind wrote:TGBaker

whirlwind wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 

 It works fine. My degrees are in theology and Bible. I have a specialization in the historical jesus.  Morality as you hinted from Paul is quite natural. As far as those things being hard to understand. They aren't really...they just do not correspond to the contemporary idea of a Judeo-Christian god. Those things are quite consistant with the barbaric Yahweh and Eloistic origins of the Western concepts of theism. The texts state what they state and show what they show.  Nothing hard from our position but does not correspond to theism very well does it. So perhaps it is hard for you to understand from your presuppositions and beliefs.

 

I congratulate you on your degrees however it shows only that you are intelligent enough to read and pass exams.   I do not mean that in an unkind way.  Reading something and understanding something are not the same.  I read the Bible three times and never got diddly out of it.  Now...I see.

 

 

  • 11 Timothy 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Earlier you said that childlike ignorance might be the way it should be. Now learning is important?

We don't have to chose between the two like you. Learning is important, PERIOD. We don't buy into ignorance being a virtue to be celebrated, anymore than you would, or should celebrate someone claiming the earth to be flat.

Your problem is that once you buy into a concept that can be whatever you want it to be you can have it both ways. We are not plagued with that problem.

You do the same thing every theist I have ever debated does. Learning is what leads you to your own conclusions.

NO, learning is the ability to go where the evidence leads, not where one wants it to go. You do not have that ability because of a REAL evolutionary side affect humans suffer from. We seek patterns, and when they seem to work, we far too often jump on that pattern, failing to test it to insure quality of data.

You are what Dawkins describes as the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight,

 

 

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mrOriginal

mrOriginal wrote:

Hello,

giving you a late welcome to the forum.

 

Just a little suggestion if I may.  As atheists, we do not take the bible literally.  So throwing out verses at us, as if those verses are the final authority in justifying how right you are, and how wrong we are, will not get you anywhere.

 

The old, "because the bible says so" crap will not work here.......nice try though. 

 

 

I know you are an atheist.  You know I am a Christian.  I will ALWAYS use the Bible for only His Words have any meaning in regards to discussions about Him.  You may disregard it if you wish. 

 

 

Quote:
To be a devout Christian, does this imply that you have no belief in any of these Gods.......?? The following link provides a resource for nearly every belief and every diety ever concieved by man.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

 

 

If you reject all of these other "Gods", then you are an Atheist.  Congratulations!

 

 

If you have any evidence other than the bible, and your own hallucinations that your God exists,  by all means, enlighten us.

 

 

mr. O

 

 

 

 

There is only One Father.  Only His Words can enlighten you but...you must listen.

 

 

.


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pauljohntheskeptic

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

Welcome to the forums.

I see you already got your wish for discussions. Whether they will be interesting or not is still uncertain.

So far, you are quote pulling from the bible which is something we have seen from about every theist that comes here. I realize you think it is meaningful, it's not though. I don't hold much hope for anything meaningful to come from you if that is your plan of attack.

As Brian has probably already told you, I know he's real, he's real, Santa left me presents, he did, he did.

Same thing, different myth.

That's how you are sounding.

Perhaps you have something else to present, I'll wait and see.

Some of us as CJ told you were Christians and no longer believe.

Welcome anyway.

 

 

 

My visit here isn't an attack.   As a Christian...what else would I have to present except His Word? 

I realize you were and no longer are "a Christian" but, there is always hope you will see truth.

 

 

.

 

 


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whirlwind

whirlwind wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

whirlwind wrote:

Good Day. 

 

I am a Christian that was just informed about your forum and thought I'd drop by.

 

I hope there will be interesting discussions.

 

 

In honesty I have to confess that many of the discussions are not interesting. We spend all our time arguing about the nature of supernatural/subjective vs empirical evidence. Ultimately these discussions come down to the old 'is not/is too' position with the godly insisting that evolution is a lie, the lord exists outside this space time and we all argue because we crave a life of sin. It's quite pathetic. 

 

 

It is difficult for the two, the supernatural and the natural, to come together. 

 

  • 1 Corinthians 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
  •  
  • 2:13-14  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's widom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spirtual things with spiritual.   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:  for they are foolishness unto him:  neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

Hopefully, discussions of the spiritual vs. natural will provide understanding.

 

Hello welcome to the form.   So far you've had a lot of posts like the one above.  Based on this and on what other Christians post I was wondering if you believe bible verses are like magical spells.  You keep chanting them at us like you think they will magically burrow their way into our skulls, and make us believe the whole book isn't a bunch of crap.  Is this what you mean by the spiritual vs. the natural?  The natural being well thought out modes of reality which are judged by how well they adhere to and predict empirical evidence vs. the supernatural being knowledge from a magical book used to cast magical spell on nonbeliever in hopes the words will burrow their way into people skulls turning them into true Christians.