I can't see why you try to destroy religion. [YOU RESPOND]

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I can't see why you try to destroy religion. [YOU RESPOND]

 From: Tashaazor@yahoo.com

Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: [General Question] What is your point?

 Tasha sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

For the life of me, i can't see why you bother to try and destroy religion.
you never can. its not a place or a practice. its something in ones heart.
how can you destroy that.  for a group of people that don't believe in
god, you spend all day and all night thinking about him. your lives are
dedicated to disproving him so much. for something you feel is not true,
you spend a lot of time on. i dont try and disprove the existence of santa
or the tooth fairy cause i simply know its a lie. honestly, if i ever had a
doubt about god being real, your whole "movement" assures me he is. he must
be to get all this attention. in fact, you are proving him to be true just
by proving his word true. the bible says people like you would say just
what you say and do just what you do. this was all predicted. your
actually fulfilling prophecy that you are trying to prove false. if you
want to convince me god isn't real, live as such. dont post up a whole
website and debate nationally with believers. what are you so upset about
if its all a myth. i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed
and sarcastic. i cant help but to think, why get so heated about it then.
go home, eat sleep and wake up without god for all we care. religion does
not cause conflict, ethics do. people will always disagree about things.
if religion never existed, we would still fight about anything. its the
human condition, that we must disagree. honestly, you guys come off more
like satanists. it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all
you do. whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this
is true. how is evolution rational to you rational response team? how can
anything come from nothing. you CANNOT prove that the earth was just
simply made by gases. who made the gases? who made the "thing" that made
the gases? it will never make sense. why just stop at saying that the
gases were just there. lets figure out who made them. without that, how
can we ever satisfy the question of "where did creation come from". you
guys are stupid and i would love to talk to you some day. you dont make
sense period! god is real! if he wasn't, you wouldn't spend all this time
on him

Thank you,

and God Bless

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God belief is a delusion,

God belief is a delusion, not a place or a practice. Just like Santa is not a place or a practice. It is a false warm fuzzy crutch people cling to like crossing their fingers.

You really made one huge mistake that gives you away as a newbie in dealing with conversing with atheists. You assume we have never heard your arguments before.

"Maybe if I say it with enough passion?"

The problem with the passion argument is that all the deity claimers have it, but what they dont have, just like you, is quite simple, EVIDENCE. Your emotional reaction is quite typical of someone who is not used to being questioned and lacks the introspection to be sure that their position is right. Merely liking a claim is not evidence of anything but liking a claim.

Why do we fight deity claims? For the same reason you'd find it absurd if a 50 year old man litterally and truely believed that 8 reigndeer could land on all the rooftops on the planet in one night.

For the same reason you rightfully reject claims of Thor making lighting, we reject claims of Allah picking the sex of the baby.

Why? It is quite simple. Because the god believers(incert label here) have all the political power and aim their guns at each other. Typical jock "alpha male" mentality. Only problem is, that I live here too. And if their fantacies didnt bleed into politics, I wouldnt give one rats ass what they believe. Forgive me for giving a shit about the only home I live on.

 

 

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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

From: Tashaazor@yahoo.com

Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 3:42 PM
Subject: [General Question] you guys are stupid and i would love to talk to you some day. you dont make sense period! god is real! if he wasn't, you wouldn't spend all this time
on him

Thank you,

and God Bless

The question is, why would we want to talk to you ?

You insult us by calling us "stupid", then tell us we "don't make sense period ! "

And lastly after attacking us, you end your post with the blatantly insincere "Thank you and God bless."

Yes darling, I can tell by your words that your heart aches over the fate of all the lost souls on this forum.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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HOLY SHIT. Wow, I think

HOLY SHIT.

Wow, I think after reading this I may choose to go back to church. I have been so deluded. DAMN YOU PEOPLE. Oh wait, I never chose to be an atheist. Fundies Say The Darndest Things.

I like the part where she called us stupid. I mean why stop there and call us stupid with poopie pants LOL? Then she ends the last sentence with the word period and uses an exclamation point. I mean talk about stupid poopie pants. Damn it, sorry I gave up the higher moral ground on that one.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Tashaazor@yahoo.com

Tashaazor@yahoo.com wrote:



For the life of me, i can't see why you bother to try and destroy religion. you never can. its not a place or a practice. its something in ones heart. how can you destroy that.

Are you sure that religion in one's heart, or is it in one's mind? What makes you so sure? Is your sureness different to that of a married person whose spouse cheats and lies but still they hold fast to the relationship because they feel so strongly that under it all their spouse really loves them? Is this religion in your heart, actually any different at all to interpreting your emotional life through a cloudy lens of irrational thinking?

 

 

Quote:

for a group of people that don't believe in god, you spend all day and all night thinking about him.

No, we spend a lot of time thinking about your wellbeing, and the future of our world. Religion is affecting both of these.

Quote:

your lives are dedicated to disproving him so much. for something you feel is not true, you spend a lot of time on. i dont try and disprove the existence of santa or the tooth fairy cause i simply know its a lie.

Children are allowed the freedom to stop believing in Santa and the tooth fairy. But my understanding is that in some very religious circles there are grave consequences for exercising the same freedom when it comes to God.

Quote:

honestly, if i ever had a doubt about god being real, your whole "movement" assures me he is he must be to get all this attention.

What is actually getting attention here is the cruel and overbearing aggression against all and sundry used by religious movements to gain compliance with their worldview. The fact that so much force is determined to be used on the young and the vulnerable to have them accept the religious notion of God is equal proof to yours of it's non-existence.

Quote:

in fact, you are proving him to be true just
by proving his word true. the bible says people like you would say just what you say and do just what you do. this was all predicted.

Human behaviour is largely predictable. It's fair to say the writers of the bible could have gotten this much right without God.

Quote:

your actually fulfilling prophecy that you are trying to prove false. if you want to convince me god isn't real, live as such. dont post up a whole website and debate nationally with believers.

Whilesoever believers are campaigning politically against the freedom to live as such, the debate stays. That should not be so difficult to understand.

Quote:

what are you so upset about if its all a myth.

This should be obvious.

Quote:

i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed
and sarcastic. i cant help but to think, why get so heated about it then. go home, eat sleep and wake up without god for all we care.

"for all we care" implies an untruth, religion does not leave unbelievers alone to their decisions.

Quote:

religion does not cause conflict, ethics do. people will always disagree about things.

I doubt anybody here disagrees with you on this. But religion fuels conflict to outrageous and intolerable degrees.

 

Quote:


if religion never existed, we would still fight about anything. its the
human condition, that we must disagree.

Yes, and so we shall, but we don't have to kill and maim and segregate ourselves and each other, as so many religious tenets command, whenever and wherever we do disagree.

 

 

Quote:

honestly, you guys come off more like satanists. it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all you do. whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this is true. how is evolution rational to you rational response team? how can
anything come from nothing.

 

Atoms are so empty that most of the universe is nothing, Tasha. Look around you, everything you see is made mostly out of nothing.

 

Quote:

you CANNOT prove that the earth was just simply made by gases. who made the gases? who made the "thing" that made
the gases? it will never make sense. why just stop at saying that the gases were just there. lets figure out who made them. without that, how can we ever satisfy the question of "where did creation come from".

You are incorrect for the most, in 1957 Hoyle demonstrated that the heavier elements required for earth and life are formed in stars. The earth, then, was made of supernovae relics, not gases. Hydrogen and Helium Gases, formed by big bang nucleosynthesis, clustered into stars so for some time the only objects in the universe would have been stars. BB Nucleosynthesis is demonstrated by Gamow to have formed hydrogen and helium in a dense hot singularity, this singularity is the result of calculating the expansion of the universe inversely using relativity. Within the dimensions of this limit of relativity we are able to use Quantum calculations to show that a vaccuum origin of the universe was capable of tansforming into a big bang singularity.

Question satisfied.

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Disproving something that doesn't not exist

 I can only speak for myself, but one time when invisible friends become annoying is when people vote. There are many people in the United States and Canada who have a belief in an invisible friend, and actually vote with that in mind. Who will be more favourable to my invisible friend? To a rationalist, that's kind of scary. Especially when many invisible friends are promising to come back from somewhere to cause the end of the earth, and people vote and lobby as though that's fact.

I happen to agree with you, though, that conflict and disorder are permanent human conditions, but to bring an invisible friend into the conflict is irrational. It seems as though you have both an invisible friend called God and an invisible enemy called the devil, and you ascribe to them specific superhuman powers. That's difficult for a rationalist to believe.

However, saying that "people will make fun of you" (or whatever the scriptural version is) is a prophecy makes my parents prophets. It doesn't prove ... well, anything.

"You guys are stupid, and I would love to talk to you" is just about the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Thank you for that. I'm not sure why Kelly or Sapient are upset, since I don't know them personally, but it might just be that people who make rational decisions aren't often treated with much respect, and that can be frustrating.

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I am personally aware, that

I am personally aware, that religion has some benefits. For example, without religion Juno Reactor wouldn't record their albums Bible of Dreams and Labyrinth, and specially God is God, a cool song I'm listening right now. (and it's not a gospel, but rather a psychedelic sinister ethno techno) Also, religion helps drug addicts and homeless people.

The thing, what all reasonable people, not only atheists, can not accept, is a blind accepting of what is written, even if it gives no sense, it's even not allowed to ever search for any meaning in it, it must be understood literally. 
Under closer look, many biblic texts gives a sense, just a bit different than the current christianic faith. 

For example, nobody can believe that a thing what created the universe, matter and physical laws, was the same thing what pulled Israelites for 40 years in circles across a desert in a total cultural separation to the other world and gathered their yummy sacrifices. It's a totally different behavior, you know it.
But I am not an atheist. I like to make these things clear, what is the First source of the universe, what were the beings known as Yahweh, who was Jesus and if he is resurrected and how.  For me, faith and atheism are two ways of not seeing the same thing. Everything must be properly investigated, not blindly (un)believed in. There are ways how to find a fairly precise truth about everything. Even what the life is and how it works. Since we all live, it is very important, to understand the laws of life, (at least intuitively) otherwise our lives are more diffcult than they could be.

Quote:
honestly, you guys come off more like satanists. it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all you do. whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this is true. how is evolution rational to you rational response team? how can anything come from nothing.

As far as I know satanism (LaVey's satanistic bible), it's basically a naturalistic, materialistic and humanistic philosophy, with some occultism on the top (in Enochian language instead of latin). It sounds quite well (if I wouldn't be aware of narrowness of materialism) and many reasonable people could accept it, but it's just made to be an opposite extreme of a dogmatic christianity. Where is an altar with a holy wine chalice, there's in satanism a lying naked woman with an unholy wine bowl on her...uhm, you got the point. It's mostly a response to christianity, not an independent life sense.

You're right about the evolution, it's too successful to be a random process... And yet, it's still no reason to believe, that Yahweh in form of a pillar of smoke led the mammals to evolve and away from the paths of sinful dinosaurs, which will be struck by God's punishment soon. You see, it's the same problem like I mentioned, these proofs of God's existence doesn't prove, that Yahweh from Bible is anything more than a player of Popolous.
The religional notion of God is the greatest blasphemy. I don't reject God, I reject an imperfect notion of God, just like all reasonable atheists does. You wouldn't want to have such a neighbour, why do you believe in such a God? Maybe, because you had no other choice.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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My life is certainly not

My life is certainly not dedicated to the disproof of gods.  You have atheism all wrong if you think that.  It is up to the believer to proove that gods exist. 

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

-James Madison-


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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:


in fact, you are proving him to be true just by proving his word true. the bible says people like you would say just
what you say and do just what you do. this was all predicted. your actually fulfilling prophecy that you are trying to prove false.

No shit! People that don't think god is real would say that god isn't real? Wow, what a profound prophecy!

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

if you want to convince me god isn't real, live as such.

Oh, we do. "Atheism" doesn't have a set of rules to live by like Christianity. We all live our lives however we see fit, and that can vary vastly from person to person. The one thing that binds us is that none of have chosen to live our lives the way we do because of religious faith.

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

what are you so upset about if its all a myth.

The fact that Christians feel that America needs to be a "Christian nation" and are trying to enforce a set of beliefs on other people in a land that offers religious freedom (and freedom from religion). I'm upset that my whole life may be dictated by a myth.

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed and sarcastic.

Maybe they were annoyed because Comfort and Cameron were annoying. They condescendingly told Brian and Kelly to read the Bible, they broke the rules of debate by repeatedly invoking the Bible, and they had the nerve to bring a poster of a fucking croccaduck (as well as other made up "transitionary species&quotEye-wink and parade around their ignorance of evolutionary theory.

Additionally, as Brian mentioned at one point, we may come off as "mean" in the arena of debate, but in real life we are not cynical or angry. It is simply frustrating to watch other people devote their lives to something we deem irrational, and to make up silly "arguments" ala Ray & Kirk trying to defend something that has no evidence for it.

You claim that we spend our days whining about the nonexistence of god, but you are looking at a very skewed picture. You only "see" us in this forum discussing the subject it was set up to discuss. In reality, we are passionate about much more than just atheism. In my case, I devote a lot of time to my family, my boyfriend, my friends, my studies, the environment, student groups that I participate in, exercising, combatting racism, combatting sexism, combatting homophobia... basically trying to better my own life and the lives of others. We all have very diverse interests, but we all try to be rational and well-balanced people.

 

 


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  Making up dogma about god

  Making up dogma about god the cosmos or whatever you call it is bull shit religion. Everyone with half a brain feels the AWE. Religion is fear mongering. Me so sorry you are afraid. I can your hold your hand if that would help. Stop freaking out the kids with useless FEAR and HELL.  Grow up. Whatever will be will be. Easy does it .... Have you Xians no "faith"


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Quote:For the life of me, i

Quote:
For the life of me, i can't see why you bother to try and destroy religion.

Neither myself nor any atheist I personally know sees 'trying to destroy religion' as their mission. Even more outspoken critics of faith like Harris, arguably, have an agenda that is seperate from simply injuring your belief.

We're interesting in learning the actual systems of our universe, based on evidence and application of the scientific method, and we're interested in sharing that knowledge in order to contribute to human well being.

If religion becomes victimized by nothing more than a pursuit of knowledge and truth, then it's deconstruction is no more vile than the exposing of a con artist's ploys. It's an unworthy pursuit, and so collapses all on it's own - with no malice necessary - when critically approached.

Faulting atheists for the weightlessness of Christianity, or any other religion, is patent nonsense.


Quote:
you never can. its not a place or a practice. its something in ones heart.
how can you destroy that.  for a group of people that don't believe in
god, you spend all day and all night thinking about him. your lives are
dedicated to disproving him so much. for something you feel is not true,
you spend a lot of time on.

Well, my life certainly isn't. Like most other human beings, I've got an awful lot of problems and goals I've got to balance, and actually quite little time to waste on an imaginary deity. I wouldn't waste it at all, in fact, if it weren't for the fact I'm constantly confronted by it and so have no choice.

Again, you're also hinting at some innuendo atheists have as a group against Christians. You're constructing your own enemy, effectively saying, "Since science cannot help you prove a magical deity exists, science is bad."

Quote:
i dont try and disprove the existence of santa
or the tooth fairy cause i simply know its a lie.

...And how do you 'know' it's a lie, in this case? Don't simply make a statement like this and treat it as a throwaway - think about what you just said.

There must be a reason that you - and I share your view - don't see Santa or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy as real entities:

They don't fit the model of our universe.

We know it is impossible for these beings to function as claimed because our universe doesn't allow for it. Either they are false, or our universe (being built of our perceptions and assumptions) is false. The two cannot co-exist.

Having to choose between the two likelyhoods, you and I both choose the first (Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy do not exist); me because I'm biased in favor of my own perceptions, and you for whatever your own reasons are.

Why is it that you have decided that an exception has to be made for God?

What about God, in your mind, allows him to fit within our universe better than the mythical beings we just discussed?  

honestly, if i ever had a
doubt about god being real, your whole "movement" assures me he is. he must
be to get all this attention.

Back in the 1950s, 'The Domino Effect' had all kinds of international attention, and in fact became such a popular notion that it largely served as a catalyst for the entire Vietnam War.

Harry Potter is an extremely popular guy. Mario and Luigi are popular fellows. Darth Vader is a popular villain, and The Force is a popular concept.

 

Guess what? None of the things I just named are factual entities. The Domino Effect was a nonsensical fallacy, all the characters I named remain fictional despite their popularity and The Force is a ficticious concept.

The fact that God is a widespread notion does not somehow increase it's likelyhood as a truthful notion.

Quote:
in fact, you are proving him to be true just
by proving his word true. the bible says people like you would say just
what you say and do just what you do. this was all predicted. your
actually fulfilling prophecy that you are trying to prove false.

These are what's known as 'self-fulfilling prophecies'. For the Bible, or anyone/anything else to make an outrageous claim, then 'prophesize' that someone or a group of someones will call that claim into question, then use the fulfillment of said prophecy as proof of it's own legitimacy, is nothing but fraud. It's not even particularly strong fraud.

If I were to tell you, "I envision that I will be caught on a bank security camera conducting an armed robbery, and that the clerks and patrons of the bank will claim to have witnessed my crime - but I swear, I shall be innocent of the crime!", and then later you heard that a bank had been robbed and that I had been caught red-handed just as I had 'prophesized', would you honestly believe my 'vision' and that I was innocent?

Quote:
if you
want to convince me god isn't real, live as such. dont post up a whole
website and debate nationally with believers. what are you so upset about
if its all a myth. i saw your debate on abc and you guys looked annoyed
and sarcastic. i cant help but to think, why get so heated about it then.

We aren't. O rather, weren't, right up until people who felt threatened by our exploration of the world decided to start attacking us, and other individuals from across the world decided to punish us terrible infidels by flying aircraft into our places of work.

Why you think you're somehow entitled to the 'vcitim' stance here is beyond me.


Quote:
go home, eat sleep and wake up without god for all we care. religion does
not cause conflict, ethics do.

That's a credibility stretching statement if ever there was one. To take the most extreme and 'popular' modern example - what did 'ethics' have to do with the events of 9/11? It is right next to certain that the young men who hijacked those aircraft were motivated by religion alone. They were not sociopaths, they were not out to commit acts of evil - in their own minds, they were being righteous and morally sound.

Quote:
people will always disagree about things.
if religion never existed, we would still fight about anything. its the
human condition, that we must disagree.

Pardon me, but I don't believe that you're in a position of authority to be determining what human nature is or isn't (if indeed there is only a singular, all-encompassing and static 'human nature' as such). Yes, there would be conflict without religion. This does not somehow excuse it from the conflicts that it has caused in the past and is still causing in the present.

We have enough problems already without one more arbitrary thing to kill each other over.

Quote:
honestly, you guys come off more
like satanists. it seems more like the devil set you up to do and say all
you do. whether or not you accept that, everyone out there knows that this
is true.

The Patricia Pulling fallacy. How much longer will this one haunt us, I wonder?

 My dear girl, please consider the accusation you just made and what connotations lie behind it. I want you to recognize this:

The type of self-fulfilling prophecies advocated by church groups that allow you to manufacture this kind of adversarial 'proof'? They can be used to 'prove' just about anything.

I believe that cult worshippers of the Elder Gods have infiltrated all levels of society across the globe, and have set plans in motion to awaken the dread Cthulhu. That there are no obvious signs of the cult's activity is only evidence of how well embedded within the political system they've become. If you attempt to dispell or debunk the claim, you're obviously in league with them, assisting to keep the conspiracy hidden, or you're just some dupe being manipulated who can't see the end coming.

Without evidence, the accusation is strictly inflammatory, unuseful and, at worst, creates monsters and where they don't exist in order to instill irrational fear.  

Quote:
how is evolution rational to you rational response team? how can
anything come from nothing. you CANNOT prove that the earth was just
simply made by gases. who made the gases? who made the "thing" that made
the gases? it will never make sense. why just stop at saying that the
gases were just there. lets figure out who made them. without that, how
can we ever satisfy the question of "where did creation come from".

The proposition is not, and has never been, that anything came from nothing. This would violate the laws of thermodynamics, one of the principle guiding forces of our universe (and, incidentally, one that is incompatible with a magical world view and/or omnipotent dieties).

There did not need to be a 'someone' to 'manufacture' the cosmos, no more than there needed to be someone to manufacture the clouds out your window. The processes that created the planet, according to what evidence has been studied, are entirely autonomous, and continue to occur all over the universe - in some cases even in places where we can observe it in various stages.

It makes good, sound, logical sense, and it does so right at the present, actually. There is no counter-evidence to suggest that the creation of a planet is a magical process rather than a natural one.

We are in the process of trying to discover where we came from and how, exactly. And, in my opinion, we've made considerable progress. To be frank, I think that's why you object. You're afraid of the answer we're bound to find. If it turns-out you weren't created by, and aren't guided by, your benevolent Lord... then what? Now you're face with the same fearsome task that atheists have chosen step-up to:

You've got to make your own destiny, and find your own purpose.

You've got to shoulder all of the responsibility for how full or empty your life is. There's no God to blame or turn to anymore - it's up to you.

Quote:
you
guys are stupid and i would love to talk to you some day. you dont make
sense period! god is real! if he wasn't, you wouldn't spend all this time
on him

Thank you,

and God Bless

You throw-out insults, then expect us to take your 'blessing' as genuine?

I'll be honest: I don't reciprocate the feeling of wanting to have a conversation with you. Not if ad hominem attacks and a rigid, negative outlook on critical thinking is all you have to offer.

I very sincerely hope you take the time to rethink most of the statements you shot-off here, and seriously consider all of the arguments you've been presented with. There's an absolute goldmine of good information and learning material to be found here.

 

Regards,

Kevin R Brown

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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Wow Super Duper posting all

Wow Super Duper posting all you Free Thinkers.

Eloise deserves that badge, "Gnostic/Philosophical Panentheist"

Thanks again "Saint" Will

Kevin R Brown, a high "Buddha" I must say again.

I see no one wasting their time here.

Call it what you want, but the "God of Abe" must be put down in the name of Jesus Christ Buddha Science !

RRS could make a cool book like , "Saving the Religious", using insightful rrs conversations such as this one. Stupendously Marvelous .... makes this "old fuck" tree hugger happy and hopeful .... Love Love ....