Please forgive ignorant Christians [YOU RESPOND]

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Please forgive ignorant Christians [YOU RESPOND]

 

 

 From: "Rational Response Squad" <Carpenters_hand@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: [General Question] Athiesm, thiesm and reality

Aaron sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

Now, I usually dont find myself writing to web sites such as your. for the
same reason I dont discuss Jesus with many Christians. people are so ready
to defend what they believe that they dont have time to listen to others. I
know that it would be pointless to try to convince you that Jesus is real,
just as it is pointless to try to convince most christians that they need
to come to reality with the real Christ rather than the one represented in
American society. I would like, however to say this.

God does not need to defend himself and it is not up to those who follow
Christ, to defend him.

What people dont understand is we serve an experiental God. meaning, their
is a depth of knowing God that only comes through experience. so for me to
try to convince you, would be impossible because God doesnt serve our
ability to debate.

I understand that the greatest frusturation with the Church is that it is
ignorant and condemning. and you have very good reason to be angry with
the church, if the christians were to reflect their Christ, the christians
would have to stop their idea of church. the reason that I wrote to you is
to ask you one thing. I realize the root of this site is grounded in
bitterness towards the church and its christians. I would like to ask, not
on behalf of christians, but on behalf of Christ, for your forgiveness of
our ignorance and condmnation. I am not asking for the sites forgiveness,
I am asking for yours specifically. I dont know your name, but I know that
you have been offended by us and we are not called to offend. so I ask for
your forgiveness specifically, and I ask that you would have grace to
forgive all the ignorant christians that you meet in the future.

Aaron

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I will forgive all of them

I will forgive all of them completely, but only if they believe that I am 6'8" tall, can fly like superman and richer than Bill Gates. I refuse to show anyone any evidence for this. If you believe it, someday I will send you $20 million. If you don't one day I will come to your house, kick your ass and shit in your mouth. Once I have done that I will continue to do it once a day for the rest of your life. Even if you believe me then it will be too late. Oh yeah, I can also read minds so don't just pretend to believe.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Luminon
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MattShizzle: you had a bad

MattShizzle: you had a bad day?

Aaron, I agree with you, that's a pity here's not much christians like you. However, I think there's not much to forgive, if any person can be foolished by a Church cult, then it's their own problem, they're simply not resistant and must undergo that experience to gain an immunity. I'd be angry if a religional sect would violently brainwash someone who wouldn't otherwise accept their teaching, but as for common "ignorant christians", I can just play a role of wise God, ascended over their ignorance. It is sometimes fun to try how they react on a very different paradigm, which I dare to have.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Belief and Forgiveness

 Your invisible friends sound nice. I (personally) feel that I have nothing to forgive you, or other Christians for. I haven't been offended, only frightened by the political power of groups who believe in (sometimes competing) invisible friends.

We all do irrational things. I certainly have. You're forgiven.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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Don't feel bad because we

Don't feel bad because we bang on christians more than other religions. All religions are guilty of the same crap when compared to each other. The muslim intolerance to other faiths today are just as abhorent as the crusades or the inquisition were centuries ago. The problem does not stem from what someone believes but from what degree they will go to to persecute others. If moderates and liberals would distance themselves from the radicals then you would find most of us to be less "hostile". In a closed society I could care less what happens. If muslims are happy living in a society that persecutes others, fine. I disagree with that stance but it isn't my position to judge them. However, in most westernalized states we are supposed to have freedom to choose for ourselves rather or not we follow some faith. If there are laws that protect religion in favor of lack there of I have a problem with it. It isn't religion most of us disagree with, rather the discrimination that comes with it. If you are a moderate christian stand against the fundamentalists and things can change in how you are perceived.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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 Quote:I know that it would

 

Quote:
I
know that it would be pointless to try to convince you that Jesus is real,
just as it is pointless to try to convince most christians that they need
to come to reality with the real Christ rather than the one represented in
American society.

I would suggest that it's almost as unlikely that anyone with logic training could convince you that you're making a No True Scotsman fallacy, and that this whole line of reasoning is complete bollocks.

Quote:
God does not need to defend himself and it is not up to those who follow
Christ, to defend him.

Who's that leave?  Don't you know that any idea has to be defended if it is to be believed?  So who's going to defend your god if he won't do it himself and you won't?

Quote:
What people dont understand is we serve an experiental God. meaning, their
is a depth of knowing God that only comes through experience. so for me to
try to convince you, would be impossible because God doesnt serve our
ability to debate.

So you have to believe in him to have the knowledge to believe in him.  Really awesome.  You're a mental giant, clearly.  If you care to respond, tell me truthfully, how much formal training in logic have you had?  Philosophy?

Quote:
I understand that the greatest frusturation with the Church is that it is
ignorant and condemning.

And arrogant and pushy and authoritarian.

Quote:
I realize the root of this site is grounded in
bitterness towards the church and its christians.

Like much in your life, you've decided to believe that which makes you feel better as opposed to that for which there is evidence.  If you'd read without blinders for a while, you'll find that the reason we founded this site is to help people learn to think rationally.  Anger and bitterness are quite different.  We are angry (AND HERE'S WHY) about what theists do, but we're truly saddened by the extraordinary pain and suffering that people willingly inflict on themselves and others, and we're trying to help, both for your sakes and for ours.

Quote:
I would like to ask, not
on behalf of christians, but on behalf of Christ, for your forgiveness of
our ignorance and condmnation.

Tell them to stop.  When they stop, I will forgive them.  I do not forgive that for which there is no repentance.

Quote:
I am not asking for the sites forgiveness,
I am asking for yours specifically.

I, specifically, do not forgive people who continue to hurt others with no intention of quitting.

Quote:
and I ask that you would have grace to
forgive all the ignorant christians that you meet in the future.

Forgiveness comes after repentance.  When theists apologize to me personally and change their ways, I will forgive them. 

Oh, and don’t get smug thinking that I’m wasting time holding onto bitterness or any of that shit.  I won’t give this letter another thought after I hit {Post Comment}.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I AM GOD AS YOU
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  To do as the Jesus

  To do as the Jesus character is to be pissed off, to bring a "Sword", and to scorn the religious hypocrites because ya care.

 "Forgive" is a complex word. "Forgive them for they do not know what they do", is to have compassion and understanding, but not to forget or appease. 'Love the enemy", is the same message. Love is kind and LOUD, and unrelenting. 

God = All and forgets nothing. Nothing is ever actually forgotten. Action can't be erased. Even if time was to move backwards, what was, was .....

To understand Jesus is to be as Jesus and to know "I am one with the father [cosmos]."  God is not separate from anything. All is ONE. "God of Abe" is an unheathy myth. 

Atheists are Jesus like, Jesus worshipers are Idol worshipers.

Gotta run now ..... "Save a Christian"..... 


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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:

 

 

From: "Rational Response Squad" <Carpenters_hand@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: [General Question] Athiesm, thiesm and reality

Aaron sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.

Now, I usually dont find myself writing to web sites such as your. for the
same reason I dont discuss Jesus with many Christians. people are so ready
to defend what they believe that they dont have time to listen to others. I
know that it would be pointless to try to convince you that Jesus is real,
just as it is pointless to try to convince most christians that they need
to come to reality with the real Christ rather than the one represented in
American society. I would like, however to say this.

God does not need to defend himself and it is not up to those who follow
Christ, to defend him.

What people dont understand is we serve an experiental God. meaning, their
is a depth of knowing God that only comes through experience. so for me to
try to convince you, would be impossible because God doesnt serve our
ability to debate.

I understand that the greatest frusturation with the Church is that it is
ignorant and condemning. and you have very good reason to be angry with
the church, if the christians were to reflect their Christ, the christians
would have to stop their idea of church. the reason that I wrote to you is
to ask you one thing. I realize the root of this site is grounded in
bitterness towards the church and its christians. I would like to ask, not
on behalf of christians, but on behalf of Christ, for your forgiveness of
our ignorance and condmnation. I am not asking for the sites forgiveness,
I am asking for yours specifically. I dont know your name, but I know that
you have been offended by us and we are not called to offend. so I ask for
your forgiveness specifically, and I ask that you would have grace to
forgive all the ignorant christians that you meet in the future.

Aaron

 

Aaron- First let me thank you for your lack of condescending language, which I often hear from even the most apologetic Christians. Because I appreciate your non-condescending tone, I will reply in kind. I do not seek any forgiveness from Christians in particular, rather a specific contract with society that the values and interests of the atheist, the intellectual, and the intellectual atheist will be protected against the rival interests of movements with anti-intellectual values at their core, which more often than not use atheists and religious/ethnic minorities as scapegoats for national crises. You seem like a pretty smart person, so I hope you can see the difference here. I am far more concerned with the damage that irrational thinking in general does to society than whether my neighbor believes in invisible friends and their hybrid offspring.

This site is not about bitterness, anymore than a group of comrades venting about a shared frustration is about bitterness. I come here for solidarity. I come here to communicate with others who value science, reason, and progress over faith, and who are familiar with concepts like memes and the intricacies of modern evolutionary theory. I come here to chat with people who aren't afraid to self-identify as "militant" atheists, and who generally are less uptight and less conservative than most of the richarddawkins.net forum. So I have to argue with you there. This site is not about bitterness. It is about camaraderie, solidarity, and commonality, as well as a diversity of opinions (yes, we do have different opinions on things other than the almost certain non-existence of invisible friends in the sky). Yeah, so the motto is "Belief in God, We Can Fix That." It's a security blanket, pure and simple. We all need them. The only difference is that we think about it rationally. We don't personify or deify our security blankets. We recognize them for what they are.

Think about this. It can't do any harm.

-----FTD

“It is true that in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. It is equally true that in the land of the blind, the two-eyed man is an enemy of the state, the people, and domestic tranquility… and necessarily so. Someone has to rearrange the furniture.”


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:  To

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

  To do as the Jesus character is to be pissed off, to bring a "Sword", and to scorn the religious hypocrites because ya care.

 "Forgive" is a complex word. "Forgive them for they do not know what they do", is to have compassion and understanding, but not to forget or appease. 'Love the enemy", is the same message. Love is kind and LOUD, and unrelenting. 

God = All and forgets nothing. Nothing is ever actually forgotten. Action can't be erased. Even if time was to move backwards, what was, was .....

To understand Jesus is to be as Jesus and to know "I am one with the father [cosmos]."  God is not separate from anything. All is ONE. "God of Abe" is an unheathy myth. 

Atheists are Jesus like, Jesus worshipers are Idol worshipers.

Gotta run now ..... "Save a Christian"..... 


You're right! It's nice to see there are still more people who understands what Jesus was talking about.
By the way, the "Sword" Jesus promised to "bring", is fully said, "sword of cleavage", a revolution-supporting society effect, dividing the world in opinions and actions. This effects should bring the situation in the world to the boil, so people can actually see a manipulative powers upon them, and can start to disagree with being controlled. (well, that's just a brief explanation of what is happening in the world now)
Yes, open-minded atheists are Jesus-like, Christians, and strongly religional people overall, are Pharisee-like. It is also interesting, how some Christians are all into the eye-for-eye thing, though Jesus specifically spoke about it and totally disagreed with it. This wasn't any rebellion against the mighty Yahweh, his heavenly father, but a simply attempt to fix an immoral old religion. I think the whole Old testament with all its teachings shouldn't be included in Christianic religion at all!
It should be treated as, for example, the ancient Egyptian religion, it's pretty much the same class, as for usability for people of the upcoming age.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Kevin R Brown
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Quote:Now, I usually dont

Quote:
Now, I usually dont find myself writing to web sites such as your. for the
same reason I dont discuss Jesus with many Christians. people are so ready
to defend what they believe that they dont have time to listen to others.

That's quite a generalization. There are many people here who listen to the arguments they are presented before counter-arguing.

Tonight, I'm even one of them.

Quote:
I
know that it would be pointless to try to convince you that Jesus is real,
just as it is pointless to try to convince most christians that they need
to come to reality with the real Christ rather than the one represented in
American society. I would like, however to say this.

God does not need to defend himself and it is not up to those who follow
Christ, to defend him.

That's nonsense.

If you make the argument, it certainly is up to you to back it up. Who else do you think you can possibly shift the responsibility to?

Now, you can choose to not back up a claim you've made - but that's essentially the same as conceding that the claim is false.

Quote:
What people dont understand is we serve an experiental God. meaning, their
is a depth of knowing God that only comes through experience. so for me to
try to convince you, would be impossible because God doesnt serve our
ability to debate.

What you've effectively said here is,

"The evidence that God exists is that I believe in him,"

...Or, perhaps more accurately,

"The evidence that God exists is that you could believe in him,"

'Belief' isn't any form of evidence. Many children sincerely believe in Santa Clause - is that sufficient evidence, in your opinion, that he is a real entity?

You also argue that God's cosmic nature somehow puts him outside of our ability to explore and define. If that true, how can the Bible do just that? Or how could anyone have ever gained enough knowledge of him in the first place to form concrete beliefs about him?

Quote:
I understand that the greatest frusturation with the Church is that it is
ignorant and condemning.

...And the spread/enforcement of ignorance, the blatant hypocrisy, the malicious deceit, the targeting of children for easy indoctrination, the breeding of conflicts...

The list is long indeed.

Quote:
and you have very good reason to be angry with
the church, if the christians were to reflect their Christ, the christians
would have to stop their idea of church.

Ridiculous.

While I would applaud the destruction of the Church institute, it would not somehow 'fix' the notion that it's pefectly sound reasoning to blindly accept outrageous claims. I'll note that no formal structure is needed to compel muslims to strap-on explosives in a bid to secure a ticket to paradise.

Quote:
the reason that I wrote to you is
to ask you one thing. I realize the root of this site is grounded in
bitterness towards the church and its christians.

It is not. The root of this site is grounded in the notion that scientific exploration and critical thinking are titanically more important to our understanding of the universe than any ancient tradition could ever dream of being. We intend to demonstrate the important of evidence to support claims, and why 'faith' is an empty concept. 

Quote:
I would like to ask, not
on behalf of christians, but on behalf of Christ, for your forgiveness of
our ignorance and condmnation. I am not asking for the sites forgiveness,
I am asking for yours specifically. I dont know your name, but I know that
you have been offended by us and we are not called to offend. so I ask for
your forgiveness specifically, and I ask that you would have grace to
forgive all the ignorant christians that you meet in the future.

Aaron

No dice.

First, you've asked me to forgive a phantom. I don't offer forgiveness to those any more than I thank them for my accomplishments.

Second, you've asked me to forgive to a group of people I have no respect for. I'm not as outspoken, angry or passionate as a lot of the wonderful folks here, so I hold my tongue when I'm around them (or just generally try to avoid them where possible) - but to ask that I just say, "...Ah, whatever. We cool,"?

Forget it. We ain't cool. If one of them decides to demonstrate a willingness to let go of that ignorance and grow, and then offers a genuine apology? Then we talk about fogiveness.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940