What the English press doesn't tell you about Ayaan Hirsi Ali [YOU RESPOND]
Offline This isn't your typical "You Respond"
It's entirelly possible the emailer is a muslim using a dishonest ploy to discredit Ayaan. At the same time, he could be someone that was misled by that group. Muslims have a nonstop discrediting campaign on all the time for Ayaan. They almost all call her a "proven liar" when the "lie" is simply that she lied about the existence of Allah. Where do you stand on this issue? Do you have issues with Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Do you think the smear campaign is merely bullshit? Have you heard these things about Ayaan before?
For those looking to help protect Ayaan from the almost certain attack from muslim terrorists, you can donate here:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/ayaan_hirsi_ali_security_trust
I have alerted the author to this thread.
Ferre sent a message using the contact form at
http://www.rationalresponders.com/contact.
Hi guys and girls,
My name is Ferre, I'm Dutch and appreciate the work you are doing, I'm a
"friend"of Kelly at Digg and digg her stories and I also subscribed to
your youtube channel.
I noticed that you posted a couple of videos with a speech from Hirsh Ali,
the former Dutch politician and want you to have some information that the
english language press desperately avoids to mention about this woman.
For one, she is a zionist and is supported by the powers-that-be in Israel
and America. She was kicked out of our politics because she was busted
lying about her name and the circomstances she claimed to have fled to our
country, when those lies came out in a Dutch documentary she had to reseign
and leave the country and she was immediately offered a job in one of
Rothshield's think tanks in America. Her anti-muslim stance is just
propaganda to demonize muslims, not that I think much of muslims, for me
they are just as delusional as any other abrahamic based religious
nutters, but in Hirsh ali's case this is not about religion, it's about
politics and she is a tool to help Israel and the zionists pave the way
for their wars.
Don't take my word for it, do your own research, and don't think I'm a
right wing anti semetic, I'm not, I used to the the chairman of the
Legalize organization in the Netherlands and was one of the organizers of
the Stop Bush demonstrations against the war in Iraq in Amsterdam, I just
hate to see how the CIA/Mossad/zionists use people like Hirsh Ali to
"work" public opinion.
Hirsh Ali was planted in our country to help he zionists/neocons work the
public opinion against muslims, not because of the damaging influence that
those religions have on our societies, but because it rallies support for
their wars.
As a Dutchman I know what was not written in the english language press,
but I found one article which does have some information on her;
http://fanonite.org/2007/02/20/lifting-the-veil-on-ayaan-hirsi-ali/
Please, don't be a platform for those people's agenda, you guys have a
good thing going and there are thousands of credible scientists and
writers who spread the right message, people like Hirsh Ali don't fit in
the "credibility" group, they just want more wars for their masters.
Please be a platform for atheists, not for "agent provocateurs", they only
USE you when you give them any attention.
Regards,
Ferre, Amsterdam
SUPPORT RRS:
While I have no doubt that she is genuine refugee from Islamic fundamentalism (well Islam in general) I do think she is a poor role model for atheist/secular movements. She did have full protection in Holland and the Dutch govermernt should not be expected to fund her international protection. She has basically run from Muslim fundamentalism to Christian fundamentalist organisations.
Just be wary with politically associating with her. While I do disagree strongly with a lot of Hitchens non-religious political views there is at least a clear divide between his view on religion and his right wing politics
§§That fact that I cannot prove the nonexistence of a thing called god is inconsequential and nugatory because nonexistence cannot be proven of anything.§§
While I am sure that Ali is in danger, the question is: Is she in more danger than a woman like Ghada Jamshir?
Jamshir is IN Bahrain working for women's rights against Shari'a adherent lawmakers. Last I checked, she was still doing that. I have seen no fundraising for her security. OH WAIT! Jamshir/Jamsheer dislikes Bush and criticizes him for his hypocrisy concerning human rights advocation. Hmmm. One wonders who needs more protection. The woman living in a relatively secular country or the woman living IN Bahrain.
I'm not trying to downgrade Ali's voice. I'm merely asking "Why worry more for her?"
"Preachers and prostitutes earn their money on bended knee using mouth and hands. I much prefer the company of the latter." - Me
It's believed the Hofstad Network (Al-Qaeda like) is trying to kill Ali.
§§That fact that I cannot prove the nonexistence of a thing called god is inconsequential and nugatory because nonexistence cannot be proven of anything.§§
In all fairness, I am truly more worried about our 'own' for want of a better term.
My provincial hypocrisy overwhelms me when I think of global change, but am confronted with local problems. Imagery of LSD buses and whatnot spring to mind.
"Preachers and prostitutes earn their money on bended knee using mouth and hands. I much prefer the company of the latter." - Me
Hello, I am Ferre, the one who send this email to you guys.
For one, I am not a muslim, I'm an Atheist like my parents and anyone else in my family, second, I use my own name and picture, I allways do because I have nothing to hide from anyone, everything I stated about myself and Hirshi Ali (which is not her real name btw) is true and can be verified.
I had send that email with honest intentions, I support your cause and wanted to warn you guys not to become a platform for political powers with a hidden agenda, do with it the information I gave you what you like, but I'm hoping that you guys use your brains.
Don't get me wrong, I have no objections towards the message this woman sends, I have objections towards the motives behind the people who planted her in our country. Those people are just as religious as the mulsims she attacks, I'm also not an "anti-semite", I just don't buy zionism and Rotshield funded initiatives and trust me, those people are not fans of Atheism either.
In your responce you say: "They almost all call her a "proven liar" when the "lie" is simply that she lied about the existence of Allah."
This is not correct, She lied about her name and the country she claimed to be fled from, she also lied about being a victim of an "arranged" marriage, all those lies have been busted by Dutch journalists and that was the reason she had to leave our country.
Do your frikkin homework before you defend this woman, PLEASE.
Funny that you mention the "hofstad group", another fabrication busted by the Dutch court, the Dutch court has found that this "group" was nothiing but a couple of crazy (but harmless) religious nutters who got infiltrated by "nameless secret service agents" and those secret service agents gave them weapons, a building to use as headquarters and was feeding them the ideas and plans they got arrested for. Last month the Dutch court declared that they are NOT a "terrorist group"
It's a shame that this has not been translated by the english press, it was all over the news in my country. The same powers that brought us Hirshi Ali, also brought us the "hofman group".
Don't believe me? Do your own research, Dutch court keeps public files and our newspapers do too.
here is a Dutch newspaper article which has the headline; "Court dismisses Hostad group terrorist charges"
http://www.dvhn.nl/nieuws/nederland/article3026216.ece
The court dismissed the charges after they found out that this group was manipulated and fabricated by secret service agents. Dutch people know this, but the rest of the world is, apparently, not supposed to know.
Glad you came aboard.
Just as a heads up, since you do advocate we use our brains, while it's nice to hear your position here, my experience with muslims have shown me how extremely dishonest they can be. So sticking with the theme of using our heads, I hope you understand that I remain slightly skeptical.
And you as well. You should provide direct proof for claims, and then they'll be easier to believe.
So you have a problem with the people who fund her but agree with her message? If that's the case wouldn't you sort of giggle at the fact that your enemy was funding a portion of your agenda?
Not sure how much any of that matters. Wasn't she lying to protect her life from fanatical muslims? We should question why people feel the need to lie to governments for protection from muslims, not call them liars for doing what most people would do.
Agreed. And vice versa as well. I posted the topic so that an open discussion could be had. I encourage you to post links that you think build your case. I'd hope those links will look like they come from decent sources and not muslim propoganda sources.
Furthermore you should know that before Kelly posted information about protecting Ayaan in her blog we talked to a very high power atheist about just this issue. I don't recall the details of that call but I recall having better feelings about the issues you bring up. Specifically the issue of who is funding her, and why, and if that's ok. The issue of liar, didn't come up in that call.
This email was sent by me to the person I refer to in response to a request to support Ayaan security:
These are the places we were being asked to support and a portion of the email I was responding to...
(1) The Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust––a private trust fund that will be entirely dedicated to financing Ayaan’s security. This fund is able to begin accepting donations immediately. Check donations can be made out to the name of the trust, and sent to my attention at the American Enterprise Institute, 1150 Seventeenth St., N.W., Washington, DC. (Please note that this fund can only accept money from within the United States, and that donations to this fund will not be tax deductible.)
(2) A public U.S. charity (501(c)(3)) that will support Muslim dissidents around the world and, among other things, provide financial support for their security––including Ayaan’s. As we are still in the process of establishing this charity, tax deductible donations to it can, for the time being, be made out to American Enterprise Institute and mailed to the attention of Christopher DeMuth, president of AEI, with a cover letter stating the purpose of the donation. (Please note that this fund can also only accept money from within the United States.)
At that point I already was aware of what you were discussing in your email. And I followed up with a lengthy phone call to that atheist leader. My fears were laid to rest, I wish I remembered the particulars. I don't want to ask that person to waste the time on this issue and would instead like to see what the community thinks, and what your evidence shows. So far I'm not that bothered by either of the claims, the fact is, she is helping slow islam down. That's important and I think it excuses a lie for security and a security paycheck from a fundie christian.
Even if you're right. I happen to think our anger should be pointed at the muslim who makes us lie for protection, and the Christian fundie who seeks to destroy islam but claims to be inclusive and loving.
You see how telling me to do my friging homework, considering that I used to actually hold your postion (it was only a brief while) and have done my homework to work myself out of your position, might not be the best argument? Just provide some evidence, videos, news stories, etc. We're all ears.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
I'm not too good at reading this...
Hofstadverdachten vrijgesproken van terrorisme
anp | Gepubliceerd op 23 januari 2008, 17:10
ROTTERDAM - Het Haagse gerechtshof heeft woensdag zeven veronderstelde leden van terreurnetwerk de Hofstadgroep vrijgesproken van het vormen van een terroristische organisatie. Het hof verklaarde in het geval van Jason W., dat hij zich heeft schuldig gemaakt aan vijfvoudige poging tot moord.Laatst bijgewerkt op 23 januari 2008, 17:17
Daarbij was volgens het hof geen sprake van een terroristisch motief.
W. gooide op 10 november 2004 handgranaten naar leden van een arrestatieteam dat hem en zijn kompaan Ismaïl A. wilde arresteren in een woning in het Haagse Laakkwartier. De rechtbank veroordeelde W. destijds tot vijftien jaar cel, in hoger beroep eiste het Openbaar Ministerie achttien jaar. Het hof legde W. vijftien jaar op.
Ismaïl A. kreeg van de rechtbank dertien jaar cel. In hoger beroep eiste het OM achttien jaar. Het hof veroordeelde hem tot vijftien maanden, want het rechtscollege achtte hem niet schuldig aan het medeplegen van de vijfvoudige moordpoging, wel aan het bezit van de handgranaten. A. kwam woensdag direct op vrije voeten.
I think it says, they love the Rational Response Squad and Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a liar for not believing in Allah. But I can't tell.
Anyone got a good translator page, want to translate for the audience?
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
Using Babel Fish http://world.altavista.com/
Hofstadverdachten clearred of terrorism
Dutch Press Agency | published on 23 January 2008, 17.10
last updated on 23 January 2008, 17.17
ROTTERDAM - in The Hague the Court of Justice has clearred Wednesday seven assumed members of terreurnetwerk the court city group of forming a terrorist organisation. The court explained in the case of Jason W., which he has turned himself guilty to quintuple attempt into assassination.
Thereby no talk of a terrorist aim was according to the court.
W. threw hand grenades on 10 November 2004 to members of a special squad who him is and kompaan Ismaïl A. wants arrest in a house in the Laakkwartier in The Hague. The court condemned W. then up to fifteen years cell, in appeal the Public Prosecution Service eighteen required years. The court empty W. fifteen years.
Ismaïl A. got cell of the court thirteen years. In appeal it required Public Prosecution Service eighteen years. The court condemned him up to fifteen months, because the court considered him not guilty to the medeplegen of the quintuple assassination attempt, however, to the possession of the hand grenades. A. came Wednesday directly on free feet.
§§That fact that I cannot prove the nonexistence of a thing called god is inconsequential and nugatory because nonexistence cannot be proven of anything.§§
Well, as I said, the english language corporate press has not translated any of this, but here are some links to documentaries which were broadcasted on Dutch tv. You should know that Dutch tv is not commercial, like the BBC they are funded with tax money and have to apply to many rules, one of those rules is to verify sources. OLther links are to press articles in Dutch newspapars, and those are mainstream newspapers, not some unknown blogs or independent biased outlets.
Documentary on Hirsi Ali, called "luck-seeker" translated from a Dutch word which actually means the same as the American word "golddigger"
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl&fuseaction=videoaudio.details&fontincrease=1&reportage_id=4570
Article on the nomination for a Dutch journalism award for the documentary that outed Hirsi Ali as a scammer;
http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article643178.ece/zembla-uitzending_Documentaire_over_Hirsi_Ali_genomineerd_voor_prijs
Another documentary wich shows that Hirsi Ali also lied about her being "oppressed" by Islam as a reason for her feeing to our country, apparently she was not being "oppressed" at all.
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?fuseaction=videoaudio.details&reportage_id=4340
here is an article on the Dutch anti-islam site militant islam monitor, one of the few articles I found in the english language, although they are very anti-islam, they too write about the lies of Hirsi (which is NOT her real name btw)
http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1903
Then there is her History in Dutch politics, she was put forward and given electable positions within two different political parties down here by influencal people who are known Israel lobbyists, as a Dutch human rights activist I happened to be very aware of changes in our local political spectrum, I'm 49 years old and have been an activist since decades, from the very first day she came into the news I smelled a rat, and years later my intuition got conformed by the documentaries that outed her.
Of course, when you are such a fan of her that her lies don't matter, I rest my case.
Now, on your accusations of me being a muslim, Anyone who knows me also knows that I am a highly vocal opponent of ALL abrahamic religions, for me, all the judeo christian brands of religion are all the same bullcrap and the world would be a much better place without them.
I was NOT raised religious, in our country only 30% of the population is religious and my family nor I are part of that since many generations, I never had to "loose"any religion (as most Americans have who are "new born Atheists" and I'm certainly not going to adopt one of the most sick and totalitarian doctrines on earth, which the abrahamic traditions are.
To be honest, I find it rather insulting to be labelled a "suspected muslim" by someone I emailed to offer him information that could help him to stay clear of people who have hidden agendas.
Me too have the opinion that islam, christianity, jewish and all the offspring and different brands of this religions are a plague to this world, I was an activist against those religions before many of you guys were born and to be labelled a suspected muslim by a kid who is young enough to be my son and who knows nothing about me or my past is really too much. Seriously. That retoric might fly in the USA, but don't use it towards Dutch people, they might feel offended, as I do.
Our media verifies sources too, they still get it wrong.
First of all, you should translate the relevant proofs and post the text here. I've spent 20 minutes translating and reading with this: http://www.google.com/translate I have yet to find the sort of evidence I need to start hating her. I read some members of her family said her story was false, and made her story seem more impeded by religion than it is. I also know religious people will lie to defend their religion. I also know that her family would have reason to fear for their life if it looked like they support her.
Thanks for the english site. I spent about 20 minutes snooping around for her on the site. You are not providing evidence, just links, and then you're making us do the work. I for one am a busy man, either hope someone else gets involved to start deciphering, or start actually posting the relevant text that you feel makes the case that we should be up in arms about her.
How about when you're a wiseass who does a poor job proving his case? Then what? Are wiseasses who have hard times proving their case more likely to have bought into a smear campaign? I think so. My disagreement with yor position doesn't equal blind support for Ali. I barely know her... I know muslim smear campaigns and how they work abundantly better than I know Ali. And your arguments have "smear campaign" written all over em. Does it mean we're not willing to change our minds because we're such a fan of her? No. Don't be stupid.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
Good for the people that know you... I don't.
This is ridiculous. Your skeptic senses are weak and/or you took that too personal. You don't see the reasons why a person would have their skeptical senses up? If not, you're saying quite a great deal about your ability to apply critical thought in life.
Our ages have absolutely nothing at all to do with our skeptical inquiry. You were not labeled a suspected muslim, nor was your age known when you wrote the letter. Nor would your age have mattered at all. I'm 30, I posted it, I'm a grown man, not a kid... got that gramps?
You mention how I don't know anything about you, and then have the audacity to be offended when we apply skepticism to your inquiry? Your arguments are so extremely weak. Stop whining about it, some of us will likely suspect you're a muslim for a while. You should applaud that skepticism, if you truly do have a problem with all the religions in the world and how they operate.
I'm in the USA, the site is hosted in the USA, and the overwhelming majority of our audience is in the USA. Dutch law doesn't apply here. Sorry, grow thicker skin.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
Well when it comes to whether I believe the Dutch government /legal system or a right wing fundie group that Hirsi Ali has associated herself with my instinct has to be with the Dutch.
I do not think she is lying in hatred of Islamic fundamentalism but I do suspect some of her motives or at least those she associates with. Too many anti Muslim groups are just fundi christians ones which are just as bad
Jon, 34 fat balding, British human, anti-theist (bar the FSM( and in need of a good beer
Me too. Problem is so far I haven't read a word from the Dutch govt/legal system on the issue. No evidence in English has been submitted. Did you see something that I didn't?
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
An attempt at a brief political history of her life from the BBC (not perfect but probably the media source I trust most)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4985636.stm
Its not that she doesnt tell a lot of truth but is by her open emission guilty of lying to public officials in one of the most open liberal governments in the world makes her a poor political ally when trying to promote rationalism.
I suspect a lot of disagreedments on this website and others regarding her come down to pretty much Europe versus America where the political scenes are still vastly different.
I certainly dont buy into the bullshit war on terror, nasty people who want to blow up buildings/trains in the name of islam sure, Islamic world trying to destroy westerm democracy utter bullshit media invention to control some redneck americans and expand an empire. And its this war on terror that Hirsi Ali represents not rationalism, atheism or secularism
PS still love ya Sapient!
That article leads me closer to believing that she's a hero not someone who should be smeared.
"Ms Verdonk said in May that the falsifications made her application for citizenship, granted in 1997, invalid. But a month later, Ms Verdonk wrote to the Dutch parliament saying she had found a loophole which made it legitimate for Ms Hirsi Ali to have used her grandfather's name in her asylum claim."
"The MP has previously explained not giving her real name, Ayaan Hirsi Magan, and saying she was born in 1967, not 1969, because she was afraid her family would find her."
"But after the decision sparked uproar, Ms Verdonk made a major U-turn and said Ms Hirsi Ali could keep her Dutch citizenship after all."
For the record "Sapient" is not my real last name. I use this name for some protection against religious fundamentalists who would prefer to see me dead.
He's not the man he wants you to think he is. Go to The Real John McCain to learn about the double talk express. View these videos about John McCain to learn about the flip-flopping double talker.
As far as I am concerned the Hague group is a terrorist gang. They escaped the Netherlands legal system on technicalities.
From another Netherlands source NRC Handelsblad
This is a crude translation. I did some editing and added the picture of mohammed.
Not just punishing for terrorismBinnenland Inland
Arrest of Jason W. In the Antheunisstraat in The Hague in November 2004. (Image Rien Zilvold) -->
Not just punishing for terrorism
Published: January 23, 2008 17:08 | Modified: January 24, 2008 16:44
By Folkert Jensma
Rotterdam, 23 jan. The Hague court has assumed Wednesday seven members of the terrorist Hofstadgroep acquitted of forming a terrorist organization. Terreurdaden punish that have not yet been committed is also a new law difficult. Four points on which the Court corrects the court.The Hofstadgroep was not a terrorist organization but a network of radical young Muslims. With inflammatory and threatening attitudes, that is. But they had no special plans. They also do not have available a coherent violent ideology. It is unlikely that their views automatically to attacks on democracy would lead.
Only Jason W., who in November 2004 with a handgranaat in the Antheunisstraat a arrestatieteam tried to murder, was yesterday sentenced to a long prison sentence. His henchman Ismail A. Was acquitted of complicity in the throwing of that shell, which severely verwondde five agents. His sentence was reduced from 13 years to 15 months. He is expected to be immediately released.
The Hague court found that the new terreurartikel 140 on a nobody could apply. All members of the Hofstadgroep were also acquitted of involvement in a terrorist organization.
The judgement hit yesterday when a bomb. Deep disappointment to the prosecutor that the Rotterdam court last year all members of the Hofstadgroep was convicted. While most group members were already low when sentences of 1 to 2 years. The Hofstadgroep as such had not yet released any act committed, except for the arrest in the Antheunisstraat. The group had not made plans for terrorist attacks or forged. The public prosecutor had to prove that there in the future would be assured.
Last year was the prosecutor absolutely 'pleased' with the verdict of the court. Yesterday the lawyers were just delighted at the ruling of the Court. One of them put on the pavement his arm stuck in the air and cried out: "At last there is once again done right in this ... land”. Land ".
For many, the trial of the Hofstadgroep also about freedom of expression and freedom of religion. Can you still others verfoeide views after? Can you still violent books and movies possession? For others, the murder of one of the Hofstadgroep members, Mohammed Bouyeri Of Theo van Gogh just a proof of the great danger that emanates from fundamentalist groups boys. Even if they are (still) had done nothing, they had already punished can be found even as Cabinet Room and in 2004 they changed the law.