How do I deconvert someone?

Sapient
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How do I deconvert someone?

Quote:
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Laura
Date: Oct 12, 2006 10:50 PM

How do I "dis-convert" someone I love? I try reason, I care, but she's...well..wacko Jesus crazy. What to do?

Thanks for any advice.

First she has to be willing, otherwise the best you can do is plant the seeds of doubt. Have you listened to our shows? Listen to the types of questions we ask. Asking questions of a theist that backs them into a corner are the most illustrative. You need to know many arguments, because years of brainwashing are not easy to get through.

Here's a common dialogue....

Q. Is God All loving?
Theist Answer: Yes
Q. Is God all knowing?
A. Yes
Q. Did God allow people to come into existence knowing they would go to hell?
A. (correct answer is yes, she's likely to dodge this)

If she says yes....

Q. Is it all loving to create a hell and then create someone who you know will end up spending an eternity there?

A (correct answer is no, she's likely to dodge this)

You have to know how to answer the dodged point.

She may say, "Well we can't understand god"
So you'd say "Well if we can't understand him than how do you understand you should believe in him?"

They'll inevitably go on to tell you a reason to believe in god that shows that now they miraculously UNDERSTAND god again. Point this out.

You should listen to our shows, and just do as much research as possible. All of our debates with Christians are available free on our myspace on the left side.

God less,

Sapient

- Brian Sapient


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MarthaSplatterhead (not verified)
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Sapient

Sapient wrote:
Quote:
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Laura
Date: Oct 12, 2006 10:50 PM

How do I "dis-convert" someone I love? I try reason, I care, but she's...well..wacko Jesus crazy. What to do?

Thanks for any advice.

First she has to be willing, otherwise the best you can do is plant the seeds of doubt. Have you listened to our shows? Listen to the types of questions we ask. Asking questions of a theist that backs them into a corner are the most illustrative. You need to know many arguments, because years of brainwashing are not easy to get through.

Here's a common dialogue....

Q. Is God All loving?
Theist Answer: Yes
Q. Is God all knowing?
A. Yes
Q. Did God allow people to come into existence knowing they would go to hell?
A. (correct answer is yes, she's likely to dodge this)

If she says yes....

Q. Is it all loving to create a hell and then create someone who you know will end up spending an eternity there?

A (correct answer is no, she's likely to dodge this)

You have to know how to answer the dodged point.

She may say, "Well we can't understand god"
So you'd say "Well if we can't understand him than how do you understand you should believe in him?"

They'll inevitably go on to tell you a reason to believe in god that shows that now they miraculously UNDERSTAND god again. Point this out.

You should listen to our shows, and just do as much research as possible. All of our debates with Christians are available free on our myspace on the left side.

God less,

Sapient

Sapient,
You've been doing this awhile? Eye-wink


Yellow_Number_Five
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There is no formula for

There is no formula for helping somebody learn to reason. Like Sapient mentioned, they must first be willing to listen and question things they may have held as sacred all their lives - that's the first step, and most can never get that far.

After that, I find the Socratic method works quite well, it worked on Savage, for instance. Simply ask the questions, and let them come to the logical answers on their own. Most people are capable of figuring things out for themselves, sometimes they simply need a bit of guidance and to be asked the right questions.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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Randalllord
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This may help: Are you

This may help:
Are you caught up in an unhealthy. compulsive, and destructive lifestyle?

Do you feel that your Jesus fetish is screwing up your brain and isolating you from the rest of modern society?

Do crucifixes, Bibles, and songs like "onward christian soldiers" turn you on?

The truth is, you don't have to be a christian. You can recover.

Their is hope. Many men and women have reclaimed their brains and walked away from the christian lifestyle. It's not about hate, it's about hope.

The TRUTH about Christianity:
The truth is, Christianity is a fusion of an ancient Jewish set of legends and myths, such as all ancient societies had, mixed up with a bizarre little personality cult that emerged in the first century. It has no relevance to modern society, and time and time again the progress of reason and science has shown it to be inaccurate.

Symptoms of Christianity:

1) Jesus fetish. Those afflicted with christianity develop an obsessive fixation on a man known as Jesus Christ, an ancient cult leader who they say 'loves' them and whose corpse, after he was executed, they believe climbed out of his tomb and ate some food and then went on a space trip into heaven. This man apparently 'saved' them from their 'sins' when he came back from the dead.

2) Intellectual Suicide. Sufferers completely close down their brain and ignore science, logic and reason. Christians, having abandoned their brains, rely on a book, the "Bible", for answers to everything--including how to handle their sex lives.

3) Anti-Social behavior. Christians often retreat from, or condemn the rest of society which they believe is full of 'sinners'.

4) Paranoia and psychological delusions. Christians believe that a fearsome monster, which they call 'Satan", is at large in the world 'tempting' them and trying to drag people off and burn them in his den, known as 'hell'. This monster, 'Satan', is alleged to be red with horns and often carries a pitch fork.

5) Anti-Family attitudes. Christianity is very anti-family. Anyone who believes in family values should be appalled by this cult. For instance, the mythical leader of christianity, Jesus Christ, says the following in the Bible: "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and his mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple".--Luke-12:51-2. "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against his mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."--Luke 10:35-6. It is clear that the radical christian agenda is to destroy the sacred institution of the family and therefore it must not be tolerated.

6) Violence. Christians have been responsible for some of the most horrific acts of violence, mureders and genocide in history. The Crusades, where thousands of Muslims were slaughtered, the Genocide of South Americans conducted by the Spanish Conquistadors, the murder of MILLIONS of men and women accused of being 'heretics' and 'witches' in the 16th and 17th century are only a few examples of countless acts of cold blooded sadism conducted in the name of this cult. While the Christians have cut back on the murders in recent years, they still very successfully drive countless numbers of gay youth to suicide.

7) Sexual Hang-Ups. Christians often suffer from very severe sexual hangups, where perfectly natural and enjoyable human feelings are interpreted as 'evil' and therefore dangersously repressed. This can lead to very unhealthy inner turmoil and psychological trauma.

Cool Hatred and Bigotry. Although not sufacing in all cases, symptoms of pathological hatred and bigotry often surface in christians. It is no coincidence that hate groups such as the Klu Klux Klan are fanatical christians. Although not all christians are like this, the point is that many are, so therfore the potential for such dangerous and insidious mentalities is inherent in the cult. It is intersting to note that a religion such as Buddhism, which for it's widespread influence is the Eastern equivalent of Christianity, although being extremely widespread and diversified has never harbored any hate groups.

Walk out of the Christian lifestyle today! Remeber, no one has to be a christian. You were not 'born that way'. There is hope. You can leave your destructive lifestyle!

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10/becoming-ex-christian.php

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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randalllord, may I post this

randalllord, may I post this at myspace?


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One thing that I haven't

One thing that I haven't read is 'get personal'

I think it's important to know which denomination that the particular theist follows.
For instance, you'll do nothing more than piss a catholic off if you try to lump them in with protestants with too many generalizations concerning christianity. Labels sometimes mean more than the religion itself.
Church of christ folks believe that they're the only true christians and will get a little bent out of shape when you challenge their interpretations of christ's or paul's words in the bible.
Anything that is said to some will be met with a mind that clings to its belief.

In the end, in my opinion, it's of paramount importance to know when to stop and let them think for themselves. I don't think that can be repeated enough by the rrs.
Simply by initiating a conversation, one must be prepared to hug futility. However, embracing futility involves putting emotion into it.

Try as I might, I still let my emotions into my speeches/discussions no matter how hard I try to control my voice inflection and body language.

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Hambydammit
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rational de-religifying

If you listen to religious people talk about their beliefs, you'll notice that they're in sound bytes. Most of their arguments are simple circular logic, and this makes it very easy to spout them quickly and defend them equally quickly.

For instance: How do you know God exists? Because I have faith. But doesn't that mean that you believe in him despite evidence that he exists? Well, of course I do. If I didn't, I wouldn't have faith!

The thing to realize is that you're up against two very formidable opponents: Fear and social pressure. The religion is built so that any question that leads a Christian to question her beliefs will cause such guilt that she will either A) invent an illogical answer, or B) ignore the question on the grounds that it is the devil tempting her.

The social pressure is the real demon, though. If she's a Christian, I guarantee she has a support network, and she feels connected to the millions of other Christians in the country. What you're asking her to do on a human level is to abandon many people close to her as well as literally millions of people who believe as she does now. If you don't believe that Christians will ostracize her for leaving the faith, you don't know much about Christians.

I suggest you take a two-pronged approach. Try to help her realize that the world is populated by lots and lots of non-Christians, and that she will not really be alone without them. Better than that, introduce her to as many cool non-Christians as you can. Give her a new social network and let social pressure work for you instead of against you. It's much easier to question religion when everyone else around you already has.

How to handle the circular logic? There's no short answer. You need to be very good at logic, and you need to stay focused on the question. Learn to recognize diversion, because it's the primary tool Christians use to avoid answering the unanswerable questions.

If you were in the conversation above and got to the question,
"Is it all loving to create a hell and then create someone who you know will end up spending an eternity there?" and she dodged the question, you would need to return to the question by saying something like, "I hear what you're saying, but that's not answering the question," and then repeat the question verbatim. Do this until she answers or gives up. Remember, she's been brainwashed for many years, and it's not going to happen fast. Her brain is going to reject many of your ideas by forgetting them, so you need to reinforce them by asking the same "yes" or "no" questions repeatedly and not accepting dodges as answers.

Good luck.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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So let me get this straight

So let me get this straight you think that a God is not supposed to throw people in hell?

Well i guess in your ideal world Hitler and Stalin would be chilling in paradise, along with all of humanity for all the destruction they have caused.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


Hambydammit
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Um, no. They're dead. Just

Um, no. They're dead. Just like Ghandi and Mother Theresa. When people die, their bodies decompose and rot. Sometimes they get fossilized and people find the remains thousands of years in the future. Other than that, there's pretty much no future in dying. Why is that so hard to understand? Good people die. So do bad people. Give me one reason why that's not rational.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I think this thread goes to

I think this thread goes to the very core of the Rational Response Squad’s agenda. I also think it points out some of the many of the misconceptions and false beliefs of rrs-ers. The fact that one would fight so strongly against theism, that they would attempt to de-convert someone from something that person strongly believes in is such irony.

If someone came here actually seeking help, and claiming to have a “Jesus Fetish” and wanted rrs-ers help to free their mind of this thinking would be one thing. But for the squad to actively seek out believers and attempt to convince them their thinking is wrong, is invasive and exactly the same premise used by many Christians seeking to enlighten non-believers. Randalllord alludes to several of these consistencies.

Randalllord wrote:
This may help:
Are you caught up in an unhealthy. compulsive, and destructive lifestyle?

What unbiased authority do you have to affirm that the rrs-ers is a healthy and nondestructive attitude without compulsion? Since is seems apparent that rrs-ers are highly motivated and aggressively seeks to destroy certain types of thinking in those who believe differently than they do, it seems apparent they are employing tactics very similar to those they are so strongly object to. It becomes apparent that some of its members suffer from the same mental disorder they envision in theists in general, and more specifically in Christians. Here’s a good example
Quote:

Do you feel that your Jesus fetish is screwing up your brain and isolating you from the rest of modern society?

Not only is this a rude question, it has little basis outside the rrs-er’s agenda. As with most of the questions here, they are very loosely based on some internal conception and conjecture. This question equates the faith in Jesus to some other “recognized” disorder (more explicitly a sexual disorder or paranoia). A division from secular society is not an “isolation” but a separation. It seems apparent that the rrs is the one with the “Jesus Fetish” and not the person referred to by Laura at all.

The most interesting part of this thread, is the so-called “Symptoms of Christianity” under the heading of “The TRUTH about Christianity.” It is interesting that such a militant anti-Christian group as rrs-ers would assume they actually know the “truth” about something they continue to show they are unable to accurately comprehend. These misconceptions further illustrate their ignorance of what they perceive to be so threatening. It points more directly to the paranoia of rrs rather than the friend of Laura. But, I digress. Let’s take a closer look at some of these so-called “truths” about Christianity.

Quote:

1) Jesus fetish. Those afflicted with christianity develop an obsessive fixation on a man known as Jesus Christ, an ancient cult leader who they say 'loves' them and whose corpse, after he was executed, they believe climbed out of his tomb and ate some food and then went on a space trip into heaven. This man apparently 'saved' them from their 'sins' when he came back from the dead.

It seems rrs-ers embraces a very strong and obsessive fixation on the man known as Jesus. (FYI-The name Jesus “Christ” makes inference to Him being more than a “man.” It is ironic (and obvious from the description that follows that sentence) that they go to such lengths to discredit such claims. The use of the word “corpse” in reference to body it having climbed out of a tomb is interesting and quite telling of the common attitude found around here.

There are a few interesting misconceptions here. One, there was no “climbing” involved, a simple walk out of the opening of the tomb was all that was necessary. Second, a corpse refers to a lifeless body that couldn’t possibly walk, and therefore exemplifies further misconceptions. It is as if Randalllord would have us believe that we are talking about something similar to the movie character portrayed in “The Mummy” and not the portrayal outlined in the N.T. Bible at all.

Finally, the last statement is fairly accurate, but in context with the previous statements, appears to be meant to be more sarcastic than factual. But it is most interesting that even while trying to point out the untruths, he actually says something truthful. This should be no surprise really, as all believers should know that in the end, “Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, Jesus is Lord.”

Quote:

2) Intellectual Suicide. Sufferers completely close down their brain and ignore science, logic and reason. Christians, having abandoned their brains, rely on a book, the "Bible", for answers to everything--including how to handle their sex lives.

This is another very ironic idea. It is interesting that the implication of a Christian belief system is “Intellectual Suicide,” while at the same time indicate that is exactly what the believers need to do. It’s even more ironic that they don’t understand that the belief is based more on the heart than the mind. They seem to feel there is a need to kill those thoughts that they have embraced all this time, and give their hearts over to science, logic and reason. The implication here is that Christians have neither reason, nor logic, and see science as some sort of evil tool wielded by the devil.

Another misconception here is the belief that for Christians the Bible answers everything. It a sense there is some truth to that, but it leaves out the part these answers are actually referring to. It’s not the “ways of the world” that Randalllord and rrs-ers embrace, it is the spiritual aspect of life, that the Bible has the answers for. We have heard over and over that science cannot “prove” anything, but can only offer ”support” for specific theories. If this is true, why do atheists continue to try to apply “science” for something that it has been shown to be worthless in measuring?

Describing God within the parameters of science is somewhat like comparing apples to oranges. One can not use the properties of an orange using terms related to an apple. It would be impossible to accurately describe an orange to someone who had never seen one and had only eaten apples. Yet, rrs members continue to attempt this impossible feat.

Quote:

3) Anti-Social behavior. Christians often retreat from, or condemn the rest of society which they believe is full of 'sinners'.

More irony. Rrs-ers have retreated from the Christian society. It is they who have run away from Christians, and segregated themselves apart. They are the ones who refuse to give the Christians the same respect they claim to deserve themselves. Not to mention that they refuse to acknowledge Christians realize they are sinners themselves. Rrs—if indeed Randalllord is projecting the same rhetoric as rrs-ers--seem to assume Christians think themselves to be prefect, and fail to realize the true thinking that is…Christians aren’t perfect, they are just forgiven. If Christians were indeed perfect, there would be no need for Christ.

Quote:

4) Paranoia and psychological delusions. Christians believe that a fearsome monster, which they call 'Satan", is at large in the world 'tempting' them and trying to drag people off and burn them in his den, known as 'hell'. This monster, 'Satan', is alleged to be red with horns and often carries a pitch fork.

It is interesting that Christians are referred to as paranoid and delusional when it is rrs-ers who are afraid of them. (Remember the Dawkin’s video when he looked like he was afraid of Pastor Ted and about to flee from the room?) We have already shown a few of the delusions about Christians that are held by rrs-ers, but the three points that follow emphasize these delusions even better.

Quote:

5) Anti-Family attitudes. Christianity is very anti-family. Anyone who believes in family values should be appalled by this cult. For instance, the mythical leader of christianity, Jesus Christ, says the following in the Bible: "If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and his mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple".--Luke-12:51-2. "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against his mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."--Luke 10:35-6. It is clear that the radical christian agenda is to destroy the sacred institution of the family and therefore it must not be tolerated.

How many times have we (who have been here very long) heard the stories of how rrs-ers have rejected members of their own families because they are Christians? It many cases it has been shown that it is the atheist that has rejected the family values, and not the other way around. The Christian families continue to strive to embrace the atheist members and get them to see the truth. It seems very apparent that, parents can not “force” these beliefs on their children. If this were possible, it would not be so easy for so many to reject these beliefs.

More importantly however, is the misconception of what is implied in the context of the scripture. Jesus’ purpose was to bring salvation to a heathen world that had been corrupted by “sin” and had rejected God. Jesus came to bring people back to the Lord, least they die and be sentenced to Hell (Yet another misconception, but not important here). Jesus knew that if anyone accepted Him as Lord, and chose to follow them, they would be rejected by their very own family that didn’t believe. He recognized the divisions this would cause within the family. Randalllord would have you believe that his purpose was to cause this division just to break the family apart. But that is far from the truth. What Jesus was saying that it is more important to love Him and His Father than one’s own family. Since we are here for a short time, and should be more concerned with our eternity, it would be better for the individual, to hate his family, and live, that to love his family and die—forever!

Quote:

6) Violence. Christians have been responsible for some of the most horrific acts of violence, mureders and genocide in history. The Crusades, where thousands of Muslims were slaughtered, the Genocide of South Americans conducted by the Spanish Conquistadors, the murder of MILLIONS of men and women accused of being 'heretics' and 'witches' in the 16th and 17th century are only a few examples of countless acts of cold blooded sadism conducted in the name of this cult. While the Christians have cut back on the murders in recent years, they still very successfully drive countless numbers of gay youth to suicide.

Here is one of the favorite misconceptions used by atheists. While people may commit horrific murders in the name of Christ, these are not really the precepts of Jesus. While the points above have some basis, there are a few things that are misrepresented.

The Crusades: The Muslims had killed many thousands of Jews, and other people for their own purposes, and took Jerusalem for their prophet Mohammad. When Christian pilgrims tried to visit the Holy Sepulcher, many were robbed and killed. The Crusades were simply a reaction to these actions.

Spanish Conquistadors: The so-called genocide that occurred in South America was due to primarily to disease not murder. The killing was a result of the natives attacking the Spanish. While it is true that the Spaniards were there to find the golden city, and all the gold they could carry, and pretty much killed anyone who got in their way, it was based more on greed than religion.

Murder of MILLIONS: While the killing of one person for such “crimes” is unacceptable, there were not millions of people who were killed. This seems to be taken directly from Dan Brown’s version of history. Modern anthropologist put the number closer to 30,000 to 50,000; while this is a huge number, the inflated claim made by Brown and his “followers” seem to be more sensationalist than historic.

What about the “non-Christian” efforts of genocide? Hitler is probably the best known for killing 6,000,000 Jews. But even this number is less than the 23,000,000 Russians that starved to death under Staling. Let’s not forget the more modern attempts going on in Africa today.

Contrary to what some may believe, Christianity is actually reducing the killings in East Africa. There are over 400 tribes in Africa that attack and kill members of opposing tribes. When Christian missionaries bring Jesus to them, the killing stops. That doesn’t really support the idea that Christianity brings death and destruction to the masses.

SUICIDE: Suicide is the choice made by the person who commits it—no one makes a person commit suicide—it is the decision of the person who actually suicides. If someone made a person commit suicide it would in fact be murder. People decide to suicide for a variety of reasons—anger, guilt, severe depression, psychosis, lack of hope, lack of a support network, revenge. But saying Christians not condoning the gay lifestyle of young people drives them to suicide so therefore the Christians are responsible for their deaths is really irresponsible and dare I say it—irrational. And suicide is not the act of a rational person anyway. So I would suppose they also do not fit into your group of heavy thinkers or they quit the group. Talk to a mental health therapist about suicide before you make such inaccurate statements.

Quote:

7) Sexual Hang-Ups. Christians often suffer from very severe sexual hangups, where perfectly natural and enjoyable human feelings are interpreted as 'evil' and therefore dangersously repressed. This can lead to very unhealthy inner turmoil and psychological trauma.

I agree some Christians have sexual hang-ups, but to claim this is a reason to flee from Christianity is not so rational. Is everyone in this group sexually free? What is “perfectly natural?” Do you use this claim of sexual hang-ups as a reason to be anti-Christian and as a “rationalization” for promiscuity? Plenty of Christians have healthy sex lives—it’s just with their spouse. And for those that are unmarried but sexually active—there is forgiveness. Because of course—God allows us free will—and sometimes Christians make bad choices. And with bad choices there might negative consequences. Don’t rrs-ers make bad choices also? As rational as they can be—when hormones take over, can’t rrs-ers fall victim to AIDS, venereal disease, unwanted pregnancies, botched abortions, and other negative consequences associated with bad choices regarding sex.

Quote:

Hatred and Bigotry. Although not surfacing in all cases, symptoms of pathological hatred and bigotry often surface in christians. It is no coincidence that hate groups such as the Klu Klux Klan are fanatical christians. Although not all christians are like this, the point is that many are, so therfore the potential for such dangerous and insidious mentalities is inherent in the cult. It is intersting to note that a religion such as Buddhism, which for it's widespread influence is the Eastern equivalent of Christianity, although being extremely widespread and diversified has never harbored any hate groups.

I agree that the KKK is a fanatical group—but just because they spout a few Jesus this or God that does not mean they are a Christian group. There are the same dangerous and insidious mentalities in any group of people you will encounter—even rrs-ers. It appears that if one does not see the world on the rrs-ers terms then that person is wrong, crazy, brainwashed, whatever terms you can find to discount the person. Yet, guess what—KKK folks kinda believe the same way. If you don’t believe what they think, then you are wrong, crazy, etc. The encouragement to watch your shows—is it to promote rational thinking—or to bash Christians. You take donations—does that money support the group—or support Mr. Dawkins. Are you sure you are not being used like the Roman elite used the gladiators to kill the Christians—let’s bash ‘em—make them prove something that we will never consider in the first place. Let’s Destroy them! A lot like the gladiators—thumbs up or thumbs down—oops—that’s history—do I need a documented name here—or did the gladiators really exist—or the Romans for that matter? Was any of that real—or is reality only what you can see, feel, touch, taste, hear at the present moment? And if Richard Dawkins is alive—what’s his lifestyle like? Because you all seem to honor him like some god.

You say you promote independent thought—but only if it follows your belief system. If people don’t agree with you, you have some comeback to discredit them. You don’t want to reason anything—you just want to hate anything Christian. Because you are rigidly devoted to your own group, religion, race, or politics and are intolerant of those who differ—guess what—you fit the definition of a bigot. And waa—waa—if you don’t agree because I did not use the “right” dictionary. More evidence of intolerance. Oh, excuse me—more “support” for intolerance.

From what I have seen so far with rrs-ers is that you make assumptions about all Christians based on limited data. Not exactly scientific method. RD goes to one church and makes a little film, then makes broad generalizations about the people there. That’s not a very scientific approach. Did he take a legitimate sample of a variety of churches before he makes these claims about Christians and the way they think? How many Christians did he interview? Christians are not all perfect. They are not all affluent. They are not all Republicans. They don’t all go to huge churches that are like rock concerts.

Sometimes they are simple people who simply believe. But that doesn’t mean they are not intelligent or educated. They are capable of rational thought. But they are not so arrogant to promote that anyone who does not believe as they do are less than they—or are stupid, uneducated, crazy, brainwashed, or any of the other terms that rrs-ers use to describe Believers.
PS Don’t even suggest I pay money to view any of the shows to see if RD conducted interviews in other churches or with other Christians—unless the Churches or Christians made him pay for his interviews.

Quote:

Walk out of the Christian lifestyle today! Remeber, no one has to be a christian. You were not 'born that way'. There is hope. You can leave your destructive lifestyle!

I really wonder whose lifestyle is more destructive? You people don’t really seem so happy here in rrs-land! I am not really feelin' the love, ya know what I mean?

In intellectual matters you can think things out, but in spiritual matters you will only think yourself into further wandering thoughts and more confusion. --Oswald Chambers


Sapient
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elnathan wrote:I think this

elnathan wrote:
I think this thread goes to the very core of the Rational Response Squad’s agenda.

Agreed.

Quote:
The fact that one would fight so strongly against theism, that they would attempt to de-convert someone from something that person strongly believes in is such irony.

Meh, whatever. Irony or not, it's not hypocrisy or dishonest. I can live with irony.

Quote:
If someone came here actually seeking help, and claiming to have a “Jesus Fetish” and wanted rrs-ers help to free their mind of this thinking would be one thing. But for the squad to actively seek out believers and attempt to convince them their thinking is wrong, is invasive and exactly the same premise used by many Christians seeking to enlighten non-believers.

And it's the same premise your using right now. Geez, it's everday with this HORRIBLE argument. You see people generally desire to have other people see the world as they see it. You are doing it right now, as you point out that we do it and that Christians do it. I have no fault with the Christians for trying to convince others in what they believe. The fault lies in the beliefs themselves. Beliefs that don't have evidence for them are not beliefs worth believing.

You've never seen me say "Oh Christians should just shut up" or "I wish they would stop shoving their beliefs down my throat."

Let's talk about invasive... Ask yourself: Who asked you to come here? Ask yourself: Are you essentially in someone elses home (private property) trying to convince others of your beliefs?

Yes and Yes, Elnathan. And we're ok with that, you're welcome here and I haven't nor has any core RRS'er said anything to the contrary. Yet here you are trying to convince others of your beliefs, something you seem to be speaking out against... how ironic but more so HYPOCRITICAL.

Quote:
Randalllord alludes to several of these consistencies.

I don't have the time to go through it all, I'll let Randal take it. I might hit a point or two if he misses some of the glaring problems.

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Quote:There are a few

Quote:
There are a few interesting misconceptions here. One, there was no “climbing” involved, a simple walk out of the opening of the tomb was all that was necessary. Second, a corpse refers to a lifeless body that couldn’t possibly walk, and therefore exemplifies further misconceptions. It is as if Randalllord would have us believe that we are talking about something similar to the movie character portrayed in “The Mummy” and not the portrayal outlined in the N.T. Bible at all.

Are we seriously discussing this? Elnathan, you believe in a man who supposedly lived over two millenia ago despite any first hand accounts of his existence -- and despite blatant errors in the book that purportedly recounts his life -- a book that was compiled by people removed by centuries from the supposed person -- people who were not even from the same culture in which he supposedly lived. You're talking about believing in something because somebody told you to. That's the most unscientific reason I can think of to believe in something. And you want to debate the science of how the man who never existed walked or crawled or levitated or bunny hopped out of a tomb?

Prove that this man existed, then we'll talk about whether he was brought back from the dead, ok?

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Quote:It’s not the “ways

Quote:
It’s not the “ways of the world” that Randalllord and rrs-ers embrace, it is the spiritual aspect of life, that the Bible has the answers for.

This hits it right on the head. You accuse atheists of having a distorted view of religion, but this sentence proves your own distortion. Would you like a list of books that purport to have answers for the spiritual aspect of life? It's pretty long.

It's the same as talking about whether or not a man took a pogo stick and flew to heaven after getting nailed to a tree. First prove the man existed, then we can talk about how he was raised to heaven.

Prove that a "spiritual aspect" exists and then we can talk about how we can know which of the thousands of books has the correct answers to that aspect.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Sapient wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Let's talk about invasive... Ask yourself: Who asked you to come here?

I was most certainly invited...it's the one with the red hair in your squad photo.
Quote:

Ask yourself: Are you essentially in someone elses home (private property) trying to convince others of your beliefs?

While this may be "private property" it has been opened to the public, and the public invited. Or perhaps that is being dishonest, and only atheists are invited, not the public? But, I was invited by a member of your squad. Perhaps a more accurate discription would be "dared" to come here.
Quote:

Yes and Yes, Elnathan.

Since you were ignorant of the fact, I won't call you a liar here.
Quote:

And we're ok with that, you're welcome here and I haven't nor has any core RRS'er said anything to the contrary.

Hmmm...interesting that you have recommended I leave. That's not what is usually considered a "welcome" statement?
Quote:

Yet here you are trying to convince others of your beliefs,

Nope...More misconceptions. I am expressing my beliefs, and contradicting your false beliefs. I would like to free "your" mind of its disorder, and bring order to the confusion you and other rrs-ers seem to embrace. Not only embrace, but seek to propagate it to others.
Quote:

something you seem to be speaking out against... how ironic but more so HYPOCRITICAL.

Thank you for showing that I am doing the same thing as you, and I am being "hypocritical." So I guess that puts us in the same boat? Welcome aboard captain!

In intellectual matters you can think things out, but in spiritual matters you will only think yourself into further wandering thoughts and more confusion. --Oswald Chambers


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elnathan wrote: I was most

elnathan wrote:

I was most certainly invited...it's the one with the red hair in your squad photo.

My apologies, I didn't realize Kelly invited you.

Quote:

While this may be "private property" it has been opened to the public, and the public invited. Or perhaps that is being dishonest, and only atheists are invited, not the public?

The public is invited to our private property to take part. We welcome that or we wouldn't have this site.

Quote:

Since you were ignorant of the fact, I won't call you a liar here.

I appreciate that, you're right Kelly didn't tell me.

Quote:
Quote:

And we're ok with that, you're welcome here and I haven't nor has any core RRS'er said anything to the contrary.

Hmmm...interesting that you have recommended I leave. That's not what is usually considered a "welcome" statement?

Frankly I'm stunned at what you just said. I can't determine if you misunderstood or are simply lying. I didn't recommend you leave. Not here are least, in fact it was quite the opposite.

I'm looking for you to understand that you have a desire to convince others of your point of view, just as we do, just as www.godhatesfags.com does, just as Osama Bin Laden does. We all have that in common.

Quote:
Quote:

Yet here you are trying to convince others of your beliefs,

Nope...More misconceptions. I am expressing my beliefs, and contradicting your false beliefs.

And in expressing your beliefs, and those you deem to be false you are hoping to persuade others to see it your way. If you are incapable of admitting to that, you're just being dishonest with us but moreso, yourself.

Quote:
I would like to free "your" mind of its disorder, and bring order to the confusion you and other rrs-ers seem to embrace. Not only embrace, but seek to propagate it to others.

Quite obvious, and obvious you would feel that way. Also it's understandable, it's the same way we feel, except with the shoe on the other foot.

Quote:
Quote:

something you seem to be speaking out against... how ironic but more so HYPOCRITICAL.

Thank you for showing that I am doing the same thing as you, and I am being "hypocritical." So I guess that puts us in the same boat? Welcome aboard captain!

We are in a same boat but it's not the hypocrisy boat. You're still at the helm on that one. You see, you're speaking out against trying to convince others of our beliefs, while you try to convince us of yours. I however, haven't spoke out against the desire humans have to convince others of their beliefs, and I wouldn't because I do it myself. You are a hypocrite, you just don't realize it or don't want to fes up to it. It's ok, you're still welcome here. Eye-wink

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I appreciate your apology,

I appreciate your apology, that is good of you, and does show a side I often forget in our discussions.

We are most certainly in the same hypocritical boat. You continue to call me a hypocrite. I have fessed up to it several times. I agree that I am trying to persuade you to see my views. While you are being partially honest in that you "haven't spoke out against the desire humans have to convince others of their beliefs" you continue to deny the validity of those beliefs, and profess they should be replaced with your own--and Mr. Dawkin's of course.

You and he proclaim that Christian parents are poisioning the minds of their children. Dawkins wants to establish a foundation in the US, in order to raise funds to do research to find exactly what age children are most vunerable to what he calls "unreason" in order to find what age is most effective for tageting "his belief" at those children at that age. He wants to attack religious belief at ever level, but wants to start at the most effective level....children. He wants to inflict his belief on children before they have (according to him) been indoctrinated in to this thing he calls unreason. In other words, he wants to get at them before their own parents have a chance to teach them the family values they embrace. He thinks his beliefs are better than the children's parents beliefs. He wants to break that family tradition, and replace those family values with his value system. How hypocritical is that?

What seems to be the problem here (at rrs) is that you are okay with calling me a hypocrite. Yet you do the very same thing I do, but deny the your own hypocracy. I think that is what you call being, intellectually dishonest, with yourself. Come on...fess up...you do it too! Admit it and just sit back and enjoy the voyage! Smiling

And if you want, I will drive, but you can still be captain! m'kay? :ROTF:

In intellectual matters you can think things out, but in spiritual matters you will only think yourself into further wandering thoughts and more confusion. --Oswald Chambers


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elnathan wrote:I appreciate

elnathan wrote:
I appreciate your apology, that is good of you, and does show a side I often forget in our discussions.

No problem, I'm not above an apology and I shouldn't have assumed.

Quote:
We are most certainly in the same hypocritical boat. You continue to call me a hypocrite. I have fessed up to it several times. I agree that I am trying to persuade you to see my views.

Ok first of all, we're still not in the same boat, the SSS Hypocrisy. I also didn't notice you fessing up to trying to convince us, in fact you seemed to cleverly dodge it in the last post but here obviously you showed you have partaken in acts of attempted convincing.

So let's analyze....

elnathan wrote:
"But for the squad to actively seek out believers and attempt to convince them their thinking is wrong, is invasive and exactly the same premise used by many Christians seeking to enlighten non-believers.

You see the problem here is simple. What you said, directly contradicts your actions. You are seeking us out, you are trying to attempt to convince us that our thinking is wrong, and yet you claim that such an action is wrong. I have not spoke out, nor has any core RRS'er spoke out against Christians trying to convince others of their beliefs. We are not against that action, we are not against people speaking up for what they feel is right. You however seem to think that is wrong, while you engage in the act yourself. This makes you a hypocrite, however you have yet to show how we are the same.

Quote:
He thinks his beliefs are better than the children's parents beliefs.

Because his beliefs have proof. Those beliefs are better. He's right.

Quote:
He wants to break that family tradition, and replace those family values with his value system. How hypocritical is that?

There isn't an ounce of hypocrisy in it.

Quote:
And if you want, I will drive, but you can still be captain! m'kay? :ROTF:

Actually I'm on the SSS Rational, looking at your dingy of hypocrisy through my binoculars, if you want me to board ship to be the Captain you'll have to drive over here and convince me to get in. But you probably should steer clear of doing that, as it would reinforce what I just said about you engaging in actions you speak out against.

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Damn... I wish I could

Damn... I wish I could remember the line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail... Something like "Let's not get caught up worrying about who killed who..."

Anyway, could we dispense with the discussion of who's a hypocrite and who's not and get back to Elnathan giving us some logical reason for his belief? Since everyone agrees that he's here for that purpose, I suggest he make with the evidence. I'm tired of reading about who misunderstood who.

MAKE WITH THE EVIDENCE, MAN!

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Hambydammit wrote: MAKE WITH

Hambydammit wrote:

MAKE WITH THE EVIDENCE, MAN!

He might as well, the evidence is already "making" with him...

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If an atheist holds his

If an atheist holds his breath waiting for a rational response from a theist, will he die and go to heaven?

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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(Okay so we can now drop the

Funny you should mention this....

Quote:

Damn... I wish I could remember the line from Monty Python and the Holy Grail... Something like "Let's not get caught up worrying about who killed who..."

I was just thinking something similar today. Mine was the black knight and the "mere flesh wound." "Now get back here... and let's fight.... you coward." There are so many similarities with Monty Python, the black knight is my favorite. "What's your favorite color?"
...I have got to rent that this weekend.

(Okay so we can now drop the H'crit argument and move on).
What evidence would you like? Which one of them didn't you understand. Seriously....

Feel free to pick out one or two points that I made in the previous points that you either disagree with, or didn't understand what I actually mean. Please...Let's just take one or two at a time, Okay?

I really don't like the machine gun aproach to battle. I am more comfortable with taking a pot shot or two, and then waiting for the smoke to clear, and then address a couple more. How's that sound?

Okay...you first clapping but remember, just a couple at a timeclapping
Peace

In intellectual matters you can think things out, but in spiritual matters you will only think yourself into further wandering thoughts and more confusion. --Oswald Chambers


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I'm Seriously

Um, no offense, I haven't seen any yet. You pick one that you think is empirical evidence for your god. Maybe I didn't understand your argument -- I'm a simple man.

So, with the understanding that I am clueless, and have not been enlightened by anything I've seen in the thread so far, what's your best shot? Give me your best empirical argument for Christianity.

B

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Hambydammit wrote:Um, no

Hambydammit wrote:
Um, no offense, I haven't seen any yet. You pick one that you think is empirical evidence for your god.

Was just about to say something similar.

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ALMALHAMAH wrote:Well i

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Well i guess in your ideal world Hitler and Stalin would be chilling in paradise, along with all of humanity for all the destruction they have caused.

No Hitler and Stalin are dead like the squirrel I ran over yesterday. That's it. No Karma, no Heaven, no Hell - just dead. Dead like a squished squirrel.*

*Unless you are a Buddhist, in which case the squirrel I squished could have been Hitler. In which case, if I knew, I would have backed over him a few times.

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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elnathan wrote: (Okay so we

elnathan wrote:

(Okay so we can now drop the H'crit argument and move on).
What evidence would you like? Which one of them didn't you understand. Seriously....

Feel free to pick out one or two points that I made in the previous points that you either disagree with, or didn't understand what I actually mean. Please...Let's just take one or two at a time, Okay?

If I thought that it would make a difference then I would.

Rather than spend time refuting your accusations, I will attempt to take a proactive approach.

The benefits from studying the impressionability of specific age groups are many. We need to understand at what age it is ethical to speak to a child concerning the world in which they live. What age do you teach them about sex education? What age do you broach the subject of drugs and drinking? What age should we expect them to question 'faith' on their own? Should we maintain the comfortable myths (santa claus, easter bunny) until they are of the 'proper' age to explain the reason for the myth?

The study of child psychology must be done with the highest degree of care. We, theists or atheists, must err on the side of caution with regard to our children's impressionability. Coercing a child to stand in a picket line with a 'god hates fags' sign is patently immoral by the prevailing opinion of society. I have no poll results to support that statement. However, I am confident that you would agree with me.

Likewise, I have struggled most recently with the converse of this situation in that I wish to take my 11 yr. old son and 10 yr. old daughter to see Professor Dawkins in Charlottesville, VA next week. Are they old enough to meet the world's smartest, most outspoken atheist? I don't know. I feel that I will 'err on the side of caution' and simply go myself or stay home and spend some secular fun time on the air hockey table. Would a fundamentalist christian hesitate to send their child to 'jesus camp'? I'm not sure they would. Does this answer attest to the ethical behavior of most theistic parents? Yes. I believe it does.

Proselytization of 'children' is the ethical question. At what age or maturity level is it acceptable for you to speak to my children concerning christianity, islam, or catholicism? Is that my decision to make for them? When should I be allowed to speak to your children? What age would their faith be unshakable in order for you to keep them brainwashed with religion? (Do you see how the wording some of these questions immediately makes base assertions? You do this repeatedly, elnathan. I'm giving you a dose of your own drug.)

Until these questions are answered, the continuing research that Professor Dawkins and other great minds are doing concerning genetic behavioral characteristics MUST be allowed unfettered by humanity as a whole.

Oh yeah. Now for my irrational moment.
Keep your fucking ludicrous ideas of christian morality away from my children. I promise not to help your children think until they're old enough to do it on their own. Until then, I'll just continue to beg your friends to think critically for themselves while you preach at them.

Incidentally, you're still a hypocrite. Sorry for ya. That's my subjective assessment.

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darth_josh wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

So, with the understanding that I am clueless, and have not been enlightened by anything I've seen in the thread so far, what's your best shot? Give me your best empirical argument for Christianity.

B


Galatians 5:22

The fruit of the Spirit [Christian morality] is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and sefl-control.

I would think those are morals any mother or father would like to see in their children? But, maybe you prefer them to have; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, silfish ambition, dissnesions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies and the like ?

darth_josh wrote:

Keep your fucking ludicrous ideas of christian morality away from my children. I promise not to help your children think until they're old enough to do it on their own. Until then, I'll just continue to beg your friends to think critically for themselves while you preach at them.

Okay...so let me get this straight.

You do not want me to "brainwash" your children with my "Christian morality" but you want to "wash" the "Christian morality" from my children's "brain" and insert Dawkins morality?

Is that what you are saying?

In intellectual matters you can think things out, but in spiritual matters you will only think yourself into further wandering thoughts and more confusion. --Oswald Chambers


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elnathan wrote:Hambydammit

elnathan wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

So, with the understanding that I am clueless, and have not been enlightened by anything I've seen in the thread so far, what's your best shot? Give me your best empirical argument for Christianity.

B


Galatians 5:22

The fruit of the Spirit [Christian morality] is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and sefl-control.

I would think those are morals any mother or father would like to see in their children? But, maybe you prefer them to have; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, silfish ambition, dissnesions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies and the like ?

darth_josh wrote:

Keep your fucking ludicrous ideas of christian morality away from my children. I promise not to help your children think until they're old enough to do it on their own. Until then, I'll just continue to beg your friends to think critically for themselves while you preach at them.

Okay...so let me get this straight.

You do not want me to "brainwash" your children with my "Christian morality" but you want to "wash" the "Christian morality" from my children's "brain" and insert Dawkins morality?

Is that what you are saying?

Elnathan,
Those are good morals to be sure but they are not exclusive to the Bible. The problem with the Bible is that these are not the only morals given. God kills all those that don't worship him in just the right way or those that do things he doesn't care for. Worse, in the Bible, God kills even those that have done nothing wrong at all.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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elnathan wrote:Hambydammit

elnathan wrote:
Hambydammit wrote:

Give me your best empirical argument for Christianity.


Galatians 5:22

If that is your best empirical argument for Christianity, it's highly improbable that you'll ever convince anyone on this forum to embrace Christianity. It's almost as improbable as the likelihood of a god existing.

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#1 thing to remember when

#1 thing to remember when trying to convert anybody is that their beliefs are not based on anything rational, and that attacking them with reason is not going to help. You will go round and round in circles. Appeal to the REAL reason why they are Christian: emotions! Appeal to their emotions.

I had a friend of mine who was quite an entrenched Catholic. I knew that the reason she was Catholic was the same reason I was Catholic: she grew up with it, and was emotionally trapped. God is kind and sincere, and shows love towards us, she said. I told her straight up: I was an atheist, and yet I love too. I am kind and sincere to you. Perhaps there is something good in atheism, and that we are not evil people (people in the South where I grew up REALLY believe we are evil fairy-tale things you use to scare your kids. There are NO out-of-the-closet atheists there, so you really think they are the things of fiction. You just don't get that they could even exist, how could someone be so evil? haha)

So yea I showed her that I was a loving, kind person, and that began to change her view of atheism. She began studying other religions, view points. She ended up becoming somewhat of a hybrid Bhuddist/Christian/Agnostic. Nonetheless, I am proud of her. And she attributes my showing her that atheists are good people too to her changes!!

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Quote:The fruit of the

Quote:
The fruit of the Spirit [Christian morality] is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and sefl-control

This is not evidence. This is a passage from a book with no empirical authenticity. Are you telling me that the bible is the only book to ever advocate these qualities?

Quote:
I would think those are morals any mother or father would like to see in their children? But, maybe you prefer them to have; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, silfish ambition, dissnesions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies and the like ?

Actually, I'm a big fan of drunkenness, and I imagine orgies have their high points, too.

The rest of it -- are you telling me that if I don't believe your little fairy tale, I'll automatically end up being really evil? Are you seriously telling me that billions of Chinese people are all dominated by hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, silfish ambition [sic!], dissnesions [sic!], factions and envy? I've known lots of non Christians who were pretty swell folks, and not nearly as divisive or aggressive as, say, Pat Robertson.

Let's try this again, this time with evidence. You provide empirical evidence that your god exists and that I ought to believe it. Nothing in the bible counts because the bible is a book written by men, and men have written lots of books.

Oh, and one more thing...

Quote:
You do not want me to "brainwash" your children with my "Christian morality" but you want to "wash" the "Christian morality" from my children's "brain" and insert Dawkins morality?

Almost exactly correct. I do not want you to brainwash my children with your Christian RELIGION. I do want to wash the Christian MYTH from my children's brain. I want to insert FREE RATIONAL THOUGHT into their heads so that they can make up their own minds based on rational thought and empirical evidence.

Just so we don't get bogged down on a side issue, let's be straight on this...

You have not provided one smidgen of evidence that I should believe your fairy tale.

Please provide empirical evidence that your god exists and that the bible is his holy word.

Thanks.

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elnathan wrote: darth_josh

elnathan wrote:

darth_josh wrote:

Keep your fucking ludicrous ideas of christian morality away from my children. I promise not to help your children think until they're old enough to do it on their own. Until then, I'll just continue to beg your friends to think critically for themselves while you preach at them.

Okay...so let me get this straight.

You do not want me to "brainwash" your children with my "Christian morality" but you want to "wash" the "Christian morality" from my children's "brain" and insert Dawkins morality?

Is that what you are saying?

No. It isn't. Re-read the post. Starting with: "If I thought it would make a difference then I would" You seem to have skipped over everything else including the reference to your style of posting which you have just evidenced again.

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elnathan, you take

elnathan, you take obfuscation to new levels. Actually, I take that back. I just spent thirty minutes trying to wade through the maelstrom of words dmitri tossed into the air. You're definitely not as bad as that.

What you are doing is consistently avoiding the simplest questions.

Here is a breakdown of the simple questions you haven't even attempted to answer yet:

1. Would you please provide empirical evidence that your god exists and that the bible is his holy word?

2. Are you telling me that the bible is the only book to ever advocate the qualities known to you as "the fruits of the spirit?" (this one's real easy. Yes or No.)

3. Are you seriously telling me that billions of Chinese people are all dominated by hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, silfish ambition [sic!], dissnesions [sic!], factions and envy?
(again, very simple. They are, or they are not.)

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Sapient wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Quote:

Give me your best empirical argument for Christianity.


Galatians 5:22

Here...I have a better one for you. This verse more than anyother, got my attention. It really made me sit back and think...hm... Do I really want to mess with the consequences, what I am I willing to gamble, that it isn't real, and what possibility....I considered, I had to ask some serious questions....but I digress.

Oh Kay, here it is...are you sitting down? Smiling Of course you would be sitting down...Eye-wink cumffy?

Matthew 18:6
because who so ever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea.

And it made me think like....Whoah man....that's some bad stuff there. The visiualizing the effect such an act would have is chilling. The thought of actuallly sinking to such a horrible death, how much worse could it really be...you know? Then realize, the reality is that it will actually be even worse than that!!!

I am thinkin’ to myself,…this is some serious shit right here, now. I suddenly found my self calculating some odds and re-examining a few things a bit differently.

Of course, that was years ago. Probably around the time I was you boys age. Yeah, I thought I had the world by the ass then too. Youngin's indeed!

Quote:

If that is your best empirical argument for Christianity, it's highly improbable that you'll ever convince anyone on this forum to embrace Christianity. It's almost as improbable as the likelihood of a god existing.

Yeah…see??? It was always the improbable likelihood of possible existence. What if God is real?

I am suddenly reminded of going into a cave with a torch in hand and looking for a bear? What are the odds of a bear really being in there? It’s scary stuff. And we’re talking beyond life and death here! But this is where it is difficult for people to truly open the mind, and they just close up.

The idea of the possibility of such a horrible death began to concern me...if you know what I mean? It started me down a road of caution, being careful no to provoke the possibilities. You know…all those “what if” things? Was it worth the risk of me being wrong. God forbid, I would be wrong. But, then again, if there is no God to contend with, then Hell...we can do no wrong. There are no enternal consequences to be dealing with. When you die, you die. The grave yard is full of evidence of that!

But becareful. It may cause you to think more freely that you are comfortable with?

Hambydammit wrote:

Actually, I'm a big fan of drunkenness, and I imagine orgies have their high points, too.

So…at what age is it you would take your son and daughter to a drunken orgy?

Quote:

I've known lots of non Christians who were pretty swell folks,

Yep, there are lots of pretty swell non-Christians. I have known a great many of them and know several of them personally.
But I really don't need Pat Robertson for my spokesperson and to proliferate what I believe. I can tell the difference between what, I believe and don't believe, pretty clearly.
Quote:

and not nearly as divisive or aggressive as, say, Pat Robertson.

I am not a fan of Pat Robertson. How about we take a look at the aggression and diversity displayed in Dick Dawkins?

Want to start compare “poster boys?” Eye-wink (hahaaha)
-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Let's try this again, this time with evidence. You provide empirical evidence that your god exists and that I ought to believe it. Nothing in the bible counts because the bible is a book written by men, and men have written lots of books.

Well…you win! I just can not meet your demands. How clever. The only books I am aware of were all written by men. If we can NOT believe evidence that was written by men, then whose are we to believe? Perhaps there is something to this “fairy” thing after all? Are you suggesting fairies have evidence that men don’t? We can go on and on….

We’ve already established that we can NOT use todangst time machine. If we can’t go back and see for ourselves what evidence can we find? so what other evidence would you suggest?

One reason you should believe is because there is more to it than the “here and now.” Do you really believe we are just here to live and die and regenerate the earth because of randomly coincidental physics that occurred uniquely and a singular moment, in the far past, that has not reoccurred since?

Quote:

Oh, and one more thing...

Quote:
You do not want me to "brainwash" your children with my "Christian morality" but you want to "wash" the "Christian morality" from my children's "brain" and insert Dawkins morality?

Almost exactly correct. I do not want you to brainwash my children with your Christian RELIGION. I do want to wash the Christian MYTH from my children's brain. I want to insert FREE RATIONAL THOUGHT into their heads so that they can make up their own minds based on rational thought and empirical evidence.

And you called me a hypocrite….tsk tsk /\/\/\

Quote:

You have not provided one smidgen of evidence that I should believe your fairy tale.

Well…you see…the problem here is that I don’t have any fairy tales to tell you. I don't have smidgen calipers for measuring evidence. But, I can see evidence of God all around me.

You see it too, but you just don’t get it! You can't see the trees for the forrest--so to speak. You got nothing to prove, and everything to loose.

Sometimes when I am getting ready to go to sleep at night, I lay down and imagine myself in line on judgement day. Which by the way...don't be expecting any of that 24/7 stuff outlined in Genesis. I am talkin' no night. No...just one "day!" Man, that could take like forever...you know?

But as I am laying there, I am in this sea of people. They all seem to be going the same place. And I realize that this is judgment day, and up ahead, a reasonably long way away is a huge wall, with bright lights and trumpets blaring behind it. It's so big, and the light is so bright, the shadow from it, blankets the people gathered In front of the gates. It kind of reminded me of the crowd I was in to get tickets to Led Zepplin (’77 tour), but there were L O T S more people. Anyway…

So I start lookin’ around to see if I know anyone. So I kinda migrate along, cause we’re going to be here a long time. There is a little movement, but nothing an old lady couldn’t keep up with. And there are still lots of people coming in from behind. Just kind of wandering along like they know were they are going, and aren’t concerned when they will get there or how long this is going to take.

I am not claiming that is what it is going to be like, I am just saying that is kind of how I think about it being. What would you do if you saw me in that line? We are getting ready to stand before the judgment seat, and give an answer for every offense held against us. So the judge has to assign justice. What if it is as it says, that we will have to account for every act of “sin” in our lives. (we’re talking a r e a l l y l o n g day.).

So we have to stand there while someone brings up all these “charges” against us, and we have to plead every one. How will we fair? What would our sentence be. But the thing is, if all this really is real, and we all end up in that line. When it comes to carrying out the sentence, there’s Jesus to say, “Hey, it’s okay Dad, I will take care of this one and he will not have to pay because he is forgiven.”

Is He going to forgive you? Would He even know who you were? Why would He set You Free?

Quote:

Please provide empirical evidence that your god exists and that the Bible is his holy word.
Thanks.

Why don’t you come on over and I will show you all the evidence you want to see!
Bring some friends and we can show them that it truly is empirical. But please don’t bring your daughter or alcohol, okay? Thanks….
And you're welcome!

In intellectual matters you can think things out, but in spiritual matters you will only think yourself into further wandering thoughts and more confusion. --Oswald Chambers


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elnathan wrote:Sapient

elnathan wrote:
Sapient wrote:

Quote:

Give me your best empirical argument for Christianity.


Galatians 5:22

Here...I have a better one for you. This verse more than anyother,

I think you're missing the point. Bible passages aren't exactly empirical proof.

Quote:
Quote:

Please provide empirical evidence that your god exists and that the Bible is his holy word.
Thanks.

Why don’t you come on over and I will show you all the evidence you want to see!
Bring some friends and we can show them that it truly is empirical. But please don’t bring your daughter or alcohol, okay? Thanks….
And you're welcome!

If you're within a 30 minute drive of Philadelphia I'd be glad to come over for an empirical proof party. Although if we're talking about Yahweh there's no need to waste my time, I know he is a logical impossibility and can't exist, so I'll make a safe logical deduction and gather that your empirical proof will be as poor as what you've already presented. If you're speaking about a god concept in general though, I'm game.

- Brian Sapient


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I don't mean this as an

I don't mean this as an insult. It's an honest question. Were you high when you wrote this?

Your style changed a bit. You seem more... i don't know... high. No accusation here.. I don't recall reading anything in the bible about how getting high is a sin.

Quote:
Here...I have a better one for you. This verse more than anyother, got my attention. It really made me sit back and think...hm... Do I really want to mess with the consequences, what I am I willing to gamble, that it isn't real, and what possibility....I considered, I had to ask some serious questions....but I digress.

Oh Kay, here it is...are you sitting down? Of course you would be sitting down... cumffy?

Matthew 18:6
because who so ever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it is better for him that a heavy millstone be hung around his neck, and that he be drowned in the depth of the sea.

And it made me think like....Whoah man....that's some bad stuff there. The visiualizing the effect such an act would have is chilling. The thought of actuallly sinking to such a horrible death, how much worse could it really be...you know? Then realize, the reality is that it will actually be even worse than that!!!

I am thinkin’ to myself,…this is some serious shit right here, now. I suddenly found my self calculating some odds and re-examining a few things a bit differently.

Of course, that was years ago. Probably around the time I was you boys age. Yeah, I thought I had the world by the ass then too. Youngin's indeed!

That, specifically, sounds high.

Anyway. Here's the deal. I'm pretty much immune to the "I'm older than you, so you should believe me on experience" bit. Not that experience isn't worthwhile. I assume that in another ten years, I'll know about ten years more than I do now. However, the fact that you've believed a fairy tale longer than other people doesn't carry much weight with me.

Let's talk turkey.

Quote:
So…at what age is it you would take your son and daughter to a drunken orgy?

Aww, elnathan... you're trying emotional manipulation on me! It's almost cute, but not. As a matter of fact, one of the great things about teaching children to be rational is that one day, they can make the decision for themselves based on looking at the real consequenses of the actions they're thinking about. Not like being scared of something just because the preacher tells you it's bad.

Quote:
Well…you win! I just can not meet your demands. How clever. The only books I am aware of were all written by men. If we can NOT believe evidence that was written by men, then whose are we to believe? Perhaps there is something to this “fairy” thing after all? Are you suggesting fairies have evidence that men don’t? We can go on and on….

Sarcasm now! Still, you've missed the point. We certainly can believe books written by men -- if there is a good reason to. Good reasons include: scientific reproducible research, documentation of sources, a high degree of agreement with similar material. The bible lacks all of these. In fact, if the bible were admitted as evidence in a court style hearing, it would be thrown out immediately as hearsay.

Quote:
And you called me a hypocrite….tsk tsk /\/\/\

Actually, no. I think that was somebody else. Anyway, it's not hypocritical for me to say I want to free the world from religion, so you're implication that I am the hypocrite is empty.

Anyway, score one for trying "insinuation!"

Quote:
But, I can see evidence of God all around me.

No. You see evidence that the world exists. That's it.

Quote:
You see it too, but you just don’t get it! You can't see the trees for the forrest--so to speak. You got nothing to prove, and everything to loose.

Everyone all together now...."Pascal's Wager is a pile of poopy!"

(Score me one for sarcasm. Sorry about that. I'm really tired of this argument.)

Quote:
Sometimes when I am getting ready to go to sleep at night, I lay down and imagine myself in line on judgement day. Which by the way...don't be expecting any of that 24/7 stuff outlined in Genesis. I am talkin' no night. No...just one "day!" Man, that could take like forever...you know?

I'm totally serious, man. You sound high.

Anyway, I'm not going to quote the rest of your story about judgement day. Obviously you're familiar with it. It's an interesting story. If I had more of an interest in belaboring the point, I'd make up a story about how the Flying Spaghetti Monster is going to judge you based on how many meatballs you burned in your life. The thing is, that would be just as made up as your story, and the only difference would be that your story has been repeated a lot more times than mine. As to validity? No evidence for either story.

Quote:
Why don’t you come on over and I will show you all the evidence you want to see!
Bring some friends and we can show them that it truly is empirical. But please don’t bring your daughter or alcohol, okay? Thanks….

Ah... one last shot at my morals before you go. Thanks for trying, but like I said, I'm just not that easily swayed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be mean to you or run you off. It's just that in that whole response, you only proved that you didn't get what we have been saying. Appealing to our emotions or fears is no evidence for believing anything. You've been around a while, as you said. Were you here during the McCarthy years? He used fear very effectively, but it didn't make him right. Or Hoover! There was a guy who could use fear effectively.

And just for the record, I'd be happy to compare poster boys. Give me some time to get my facts together, ok? I'll put up a new topic comparing Robertson to Dawkins.

Oh, and one final thing. Seriously, dude. If you're high, it's ok. I'm really not making fun of you. I've posted with some Guiness flowing through my veins before. It's cool.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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This is what you are doing

This is what you are doing elnathan...

1. Going on on about this hypocrite idea. This adds nothing to your arguments but text.

2. Pulling bible quotes, something you should know by now wouldn't sway an atheist in anyway.

3. Linking godless to bad behavior(subjective) or saying no god means no morals (subjective). This is a very poor agreement and will be shoot down by any atheist who looks into the argument.

4. You add a little bit of a Pascal's Wager as rational for your belief, but I am pretty sure almost every atheist here can rip holes through that.

5. You seem say we'll see the evidence when we believe, at least I think this want you mean by "Why don’t you come on over and I will show you all the evidence you want to see!" If that is what you mean the flaw is that we won't believe till we see evidence and evidence should always be clear as long as the person understands the subject matter. By understanding I am saying that a person who does not understand how to add will have trouble multiplying. However I fail to see what I don't know that would make it impossible for me to understand your proof for a god. I know a good amount of logic and I have seen a lot of arguments for god, but none has proven anything. Please note that if this is not what you mean regard this as a new argument, but please be careful how you dispute it. Clearly define your argument so that no one deals with a strawman. And again this is only if you meant we need to believe first.


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[elnathan=quote]But as I am

elnathan wrote:
But as I am laying there, I am in this sea of people. They all seem to be going the same place. And I realize that this is judgment day, and up ahead, a reasonably long way away is a huge wall, with bright lights and trumpets blaring behind it. It's so big, and the light is so bright, the shadow from it, blankets the people gathered In front of the gates. It kind of reminded me of the crowd I was in to get tickets to Led Zepplin (’77 tour), but there were L O T S more people. Anyway…

This is something you sort of hold a belief in? wtf :ROTF: This is what I hear a lot of Christians kind of think of judgement day. There's something wrong here. How are you supposed to see all this if your eyes on your body is down on earth in a grave? Really ridiculous. Raised Brow


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Hey all of you athiests i

Hey all of you athiests i have a no brainer question for you:

Do you believe a boeing 747 can assemble itself (i.e. without any intervention)?

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:Hey all of

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
Hey all of you athiests i have a no brainer question for you:

Do you believe a boeing 747 can assemble itself (i.e. without any intervention)?

No and I know where you are trying to go with this question. It won't work. Manmade machines are made by man, Biological machines are made by nature. Manmade machines are not made by random events, neither are biological machines. Evolution is NOT a random event. Evolution is done by natural selection not randomness.

At least know your subject before you stick your foot in your mouth. It would make you look a little more intelligent, but then if you were knowledgable, you probably wouldn't stick your foot in mouth at all.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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Randalllord wrote:No and I

Randalllord wrote:
No and I know where you are trying to go with this question. It won't work. Manmade machines are made by man, Biological machines are made by nature. Manmade machines are not made by random events, neither are biological machines. Evolution is NOT a random event. Evolution is done by natural selection not randomness.

Next time try to answer the question without jumping to conclusions. I never mentioned evolution, i was talking about the boeing 747 which is a complex system and you agreed that it cannot construct itself, or assemble itself.

SO WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE, an even more complex and delecate system, CAME ABOUT BY ITSELF??

SAME LOGIC.

(REGUARDLESS IF MADE BY MAN OR 'NATURE', COMPLEX SYSTEMS DO NOT DESIGN THEMSELVES)

Quote:
At least know your subject before you stick your foot in your mouth. It would make you look a little more intelligent, but then if you were knowledgable, you probably wouldn't stick your foot in mouth at all.

you're the one that needs to stick your foot in your own mouth because you jump to conclusions, i never mentioned evolution.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Hey! Everyone want to see

Hey! Everyone want to see an exercise in futility? Watch this...

(picture me warming up my hands like Mr. Miagi when he was about to fix Daniel's leg in Karate Kid)

The logic of the argument goes like this:

If we can see that some complex things are created, then there must be a creator of all complex things.

That's mixing variables.

Here's what the argument really says:

If humans make complex things, then god must have created the universe.

No. No. No. No. No. NO!

If humans make complex things, then there are some complex things that humans create. That's about as far as you can get with the statement.

Is it too much to ask that people go back and review their logic textbooks before publishing such shite!?

*******************************

Ok. I will now prepare myself for the inevitable restatement of the thing that I have just disproven.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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So what designed God/Allah?

So what designed God/Allah? And if God/Allah can be eternal, so can the universe.

tsk-tsk


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YES! That was very clever,

YES! That was very clever, Alma. After the fact, saying that's not where you were going...

Ok. Explain to us why we need you to point out to us that men make 747s?

I think all of us are aware of that.

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I have heard this question

I have heard this question many times before that's how I knew where you were going. If not biological evolution then cosmology, but basically the same argument from the same religious mindset. You believe that complex things can only come from God and their existance is therfore proof of the existance of God.
This is not a path to knowledge as nothing is learned. "God did it" is not a statement of science or knowledge, rather it's a path to not knowing.

The evolution of the universe is similar to biological evolution in that given something simple like protons and electrons can form complex structures like stars and planets given 15 billion years.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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ALMALHAMAH wrote:i was

ALMALHAMAH wrote:
i was talking about the boeing 747 which is a complex system and you agreed that it cannot construct itself, or assemble itself.

We have evidence that a 747 was constructed by man.

Quote:
SO WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU BELIEVE THE UNIVERSE, an even more complex and delecate system, CAME ABOUT BY ITSELF??

We have no evidence that a Universe is constructed by a deity that itself didn't need a creator. Furthermore, the creator of the Universe would be more complex than the Universe itself, so if you actually wanted to hold to your false logic, you must admit that God itself needed a creator. If you can logically justify reasons that this god which is abundantly complex wouldn't need a creator, then it is dishonest to not admit the same is possible of the Universe.

Show me a picture of a Universe Factory and it's CEO (god) in his office and I'll admit to being wrong. Until then....

- Brian Sapient


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Quote:So what designed

Quote:
So what designed God/Allah? And if God/Allah can be eternal, so can the universe.

the universe had a beginning, the big bang tells you this.

you are saying Allah had a beginning prove this based on scieitific findings.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Hambydammit wrote:YES! That

Hambydammit wrote:
YES! That was very clever, Alma. After the fact, saying that's not where you were going...

Ok. Explain to us why we need you to point out to us that men make 747s?

I think all of us are aware of that.

you need to use this logic to understand complex systems don't create themselves or do not organize themselves.

THEY ARE ORGANIZED BY AN ORGANIZER.

The computer never majically assembeled itself, over decades Humans began to design and develop them. then they are able to assemble them.

This is my whole point the Universe is MORE COMPLEX than BOTH COMPUTER AND AIRPLANES COMBINED.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR IT (the Big Bang) TO COME ABOUT BY ITSELF.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR

Quote:
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR IT (the Big Bang) TO COME ABOUT BY ITSELF.

Why is that ALMALHAMAH? What proof do you have to support this position?

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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"We have no evidence that a

"We have no evidence that a Universe is constructed by a deity that itself didn't need a creator. Furthermore, the creator of the Universe would be more complex than the Universe itself, so if you actually wanted to hold to your false logic, you must admit that God itself needed a creator. If you can logically justify reasons that this god which is abundantly complex wouldn't need a creator, then it is dishonest to not admit the same is possible of the Universe."

you have the torah, bible, and Quran all saying the earth and the heavens origionated from the same place. This was known thousands of years before Big Bang theory was introduced.

Second, The Creator, God, does not have a beginning, he is omnipresent, remember?

He was always around, so there can be nothing or nobody to create God.

Third, the Universe is even more complex than a Boeing 747 im sure you agree with that. so is it still your position to explain the universe constructed itself??

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:Why is that

Quote:
Why is that ALMALHAMAH? What proof do you have to support this position?

Basic logic and reason that complex systems do not design themselves. (Also concerning God he has no beginning so He cannot be created)

Unless you like to believe in a dogmatic approach: complex systems design themselves and come about by themselves.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio


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Quote:Show me a picture of a

Quote:
Show me a picture of a Universe Factory and it's CEO (god) in his office and I'll admit to being wrong. Until then....

That's the thing with athiests, they always want to see pictures of God.

Can i see a picture of the Roman Empire?

Can i see photos of evolution from the first living organism into humans?

Just because we don't have pictures doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Future of the World and the United States can be summed up in one verse:

Quran 61:9
{ He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâmic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religio