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PLEASE MAKE
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FOLLOW THE
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RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
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RULES
This is the
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Again, not a very nice god. Why bother being born if you're already "convicted"? (No, an argument of "but you get the chance to straighten up and worship the entity that condemned you in the first place" does not suffice.)
Born in sin? A child does not have the capacity to comprehend a "sinful nature". There's nothing more innocent than a newborn. If you don't believe that, you haven't held a tiny baby lately.
Once again, it's like the guy down the street robbing a gas station and I'm the one thrown in jail.
Much like an abusive husband smacking the (&R%# out of his wife to make sure she still loves him afterward. That does not build character or test anything except the amount of time and willpower it takes to flee from the abuser.
If there were such a thing as a soul, then there's no doubt my critters would have them. There is intelligence, sometimes a bit of cognitive thinking and sometimes even humor.
If you believe in souls, how can you possibly believe animals have no souls?
Animal suffering? Critters have their share of maladies.
How about my Sylvia Rose that died of acute kidney failure? How about my Flossie Fiona that (probably) had a brain tumor? How about my Ivy Elizabeth that had gall bladder problems and pancreatitis (undiagnosed even though she had just ungone multiple tests including ultrasound).
How about my special Emma Jean that had hyperglycemia, hypocalemia, hypertension, painful occular blood clots, mild chronic renal failure, etc etc etc?
All had excellent care and better than excellent medical care. When the suffering was evidenced, (sadly) I had to have them euthanized.
Don't misunderstand me, I do not believe in souls. However, since you do, how can you believe critters don't have them?
Do you have evidence or is it just what your church tells you?
(My apologies if that came off as a rant. Critters are a hot button for me.)
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
I believe you missed the point of both questions.
1) What is the significance of the historical period during which jesus supposedly lived and died?
Is there anything significant about the fact that the jesus story with its attendant "fulfillment of prophecies" transpired at this particular point in history and not another? Is it noteworthy that the majority of jews at the time (1st century) did not subscribe to the messianic prophecy?
2) Why is it necessary for jesus to return? Why couldn't jesus have shown up just once at the end of time and paid for everyone's sins then?I didn't ask why jesus had to return; I asked why jesus has to return. Why does the script run like this:
1. god creates world
2. time passes
3. jesus comes down to earth from heaven
4. jesus dies and resurrects
5. jesus goes back to heaven
6. more time passes
7. jesus comes back to earth from heaven
8. world ends
Why does jesus have to make 2 trips? Why not condense the storyline a bit?
Another question: Do we have free will in heaven?
There are no theists on operating tables.
Hi Crossover
Sorry to be so late getting back with you - had to set up medical crap, work, go to school, etc (y'know, life)
Anyway, predestination, while it is mentioned in the Bible, still confuses me. I still can't get past how foreordained doesn't equal foreknown.
I would like your views on these sites (PM if you wish)
http://www.bible.ca/calvinism.htm
http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism.htm
thanks
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Is there any scriptural backing for the age of understanding?
I ask because that concept seems to lead to theological problems. It also seems to further cement that God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil.
That's doesn't answer the question, though. I understand the concept of god giving people free will; I have no problem with the ability to make decisions and being responsible for the effects of actions. BUT, if as you say, everything is either God's will or God's plan, that means he's responsible, either directly or indirectly, for everything that happens. Right? How could he not be? To say otherwise is to claim there are activities outside God's control.
If God allowed Hitler to make bad choices, God did not actually do those things, but he is responsible for allowing it, just like I would be responsible for not stopping my son from hurting himself right in front of me (I could see it coming, I knew what he was doing, and let him play with the hammer anyway). I may have wanted him to learn a lesson, but it's still my responsibility he got hurt since I could have prevented it. Right?
This sounds like an explanation for why some people are good and some people are bad. This also sounds like God wants some people in hell, since if they weren't living a faithful life, it's because he didn't want them to. How is predestination not responsible for people going to hell if it is responsible for people going to heaven?
The story of the fall poses a whole new set of problems for me, which the idea of the age of reason complicates. If you must have a certain level of intellectual comprehension before you can go to hell, do you have to have a certain level of intellectualy ability before you can sin?
So god is only merciful to a few? How does god decide who gets saved and who doesn't?
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
And yet that is life. Is it fair that a small time farmer works endless hours in heat, snow, rain, cold, etc. but the son of a rich guy gets some kushy job where he does no work but makes triple what the farmer makes? Nope. Is that life? Yep.
Because Adam sinned he cursed humanity to be born in sin.
read earlier in the post. Read the story I wrote and you'll see why you're wrong about that.
No. Animals do not have souls. They have intelligence, humor...everything you said. But a soul is something God created only humans with. Angels do not even have souls. Do animals have brains? yes. A soul? No.
Can i give you a soul? No. Scriptural evidence? Yes.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
I have evidence, from scripture, that there is no soul.
You assert so very much, but provide nothing to back it up.
By the way, the bible/scripture doesn't count.
Please provide evidence or your assertions.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Not really. See, this is an issue that has divided the church for many years...and there is little direct Scriptural talk of it. Kind David in the Old Testament did have a child die, and God gave David confidence taht he would see His child again. But it is key to note that it is not by babies innocence but by God's grace taht they are allowed into heaven. Because as I said earlier to Susan, even babies are born sinful. now I know I just touched on babies, because if you belive babies go to heaven you have to believe there is a time when God holds people accountable for their sins.
But how does this mean that God is responsible for the existance of evil?
You are right and wrong at the same time. The example about your child is flawed. The things of this earth are NOTHING. The example with your child has nothing eternal to it, and you are not soveriegn. A sovereign God can create man and give him the choice to create chaos...and while He may be responsible for that temporary chaos indirectly, there are still eternal rewards and punishments. the biggest key is to understand that god gave US the will to choose sin ro good and we chose sin. The chose of sin caused chaos. God may have seen that coming, but the only way to prevent that would be to not give us chosie...that would make us eternaly perfect and equal with Him. That just doesn't work out. Even angels aren't eternal or perfect.
No. You are born into a sin nature. I'll quote something from earlier in the post to help clear this up.
"But it is key to note that it is not by babies innocence but by God's grace that they are allowed into heaven."
I see your problem here and I think that helps. You may have to do some dot connecting, but I think that pretty much answers your problem. IF not tell me and I'll elaborate. I see what you're talking about though.
He is merciful to all in that He doesn't just send us all to hell right now. But hHe is merciful to some in that He saves them forever. And how he decide? I do not know. I don't think scripture is clear on that. Flip a coin, eeny meeny miny mo, whichever names he draws from a hat...it could be anything. I don't know.
Some will argue against predestination saying that HE only chose by looking through time and seeing who would choose Him...and that's how he chose people. But that has so many problems with it. For example there was no time before the world started.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
No and No.
Well, He made/will make 3 trips. One as a man. One as a spirit, and the other that hasn't happened yet. Why? The first to save us. The second to show power over death. The third to judge us. HE can't condense it because if you take one out it all falls apart. he has to come back to judge the world, or else the world will go on forever.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Who determines what is sin?
How is anyone born in sin?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
Sin is breaking of Gods laws.
God determines sin.
Some one is born in sin because of Adam. When Adam sinned he became evil and took on a nature to reject God and His laws...which everyone inherets. Everyone is born with a natural rebellion against god.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Please, share.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
What you are asking me to do is impossible. you're asking me to defend a Biblical stance without using the Bible. That's like saying "proove this paper is pink without talking about colors or paper". I'm telling you what I believe...I'm not arguing a point. You're telling me to provide evidence for assertions that I make without using the Bible, when the Bible is the only reason I can make such asserting.
You can't say "ok, well all your evidence comes from the Bible...so support a stance that comes strickly from the Bible without using the Bible." Its impossible. Its like saying "ok, you're belief is based on science...now support your belief without refering to the belief in question."
Yes I assert much, but you are asking me a uetsion about the Bible. I can not answer a question about something that comes from the Bible without using the Bible.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
What are the laws of god?
How does god determine what is sin?
When did adam sin?
Why do you claim adam became evil?
What is evil?
How did adam reject god and the laws?
How does everyone inherit these laws?
Why would everyone be born with 'natural rebellion towards a god?
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
One question which got lost in the shuffle was one by Kemono and I about the ontological dilemma associated with the contradictory nature of God's attributes. Any reasonable person will find this insurmountable as a problem. In argumentative form, the problem is expressed by me here:
On the Problem of Interaction and the Concluding Piece of the Series: The Absurdity of an Immaterial Mind
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
1. Been answered in about page 2 I think.
2. In basic form...the 10 Commandments. But mostly its disobeying God. Tahts why anything is a sin. Rebellion against God.
3. I don't know.
4. In the garden of Eden.
5. He sinned. God told him not to eat from the tree, and He did. It says in Genesis Adam chose a curse.
6. I'm not sure I can give you a clear cut and dry definition...but the best I can say is evil is what goes against God.
7. Ate from teh one tree he was told not to.
8. Because Adam became evil, man became evil. mand took on a sinful nature by Adams choice. Now we all have a natural inclination to sin.We are attracted to sin.
9. Why? I do not know. Just because Adam was real stupid!
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
I thought I answered taht one. In any case I'll try to get to it later. I'm getting more questions and less time to answer.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
2 Are you claiming adam knew the 10 commandments? And what do you mean "anything is a sin"? Do you mean "everything is a sin"?
3 Isn't that in the bible somewhere?
4 I didn't ask where, I asked when. What did he do?
5 You claim adam became evil after he sinned and you also claim everyone is born in sin. Then you basically think everyone is evil, right?
Farther more, this thing called god instructed adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why was adam judged by god to have done something wrong when adam had no knowledge of good or evil until adam ate from the tree? Surely you see the problem here? adam did not know it was wrong to ignore god's instruction to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil UNTIL he ate from the tree.
6 Then what goes against god?
7 I just explained that adam could not have known it was wrong to ignore this god's instructions
8 Ignoring instructions is hardly an act of evil. What is "sinful nature"? Your claim is that we all have a natural inclination to sin. I think you're projecting here, but actually I've never witnessed this natural inclination to "sin" (which has yet to be defined). Do you live in a hospital for the criminally insane because this is the only place where there would be people who are naturally inclined to sin? And again I think you're projecting when you claim we are attracted to sin.
9 It was because he did not have any knowledge of good and evil
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974
A person does not have a soul. A person is a living soul (Genesis 2:7).
When a person dies, the soul dies, that is to say, if a person is a living soul (which it is according to Genesis 2:7). In other words, the existance of the soul relies entirely on the person existing.
In other words, the soul is the brain of the person.
The word soul as used in Genesis 2:7 is a person. Yes. The word soul as in what I am refering to is not just the brain of the person.
In Genesis 2:7 the word used is nephesh...which means
) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
b) living being
c) living being (with life in the blood)
d) the man himself, self, person or individual
The word soul as used mostly in the New Testament, which is what I am refering to, is psychē...which means
the soul
a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
1. I'll find it and post it later. It was alot and to much to retype.
2. No, he knew what God told him. Today there are mroesins that njust the 10 Commandments, and the only sin back then was disobeying God...which Adam did. And what I mean by anyhting is a sin is "the reason anything that is a sin is a sin is the it is rebellion against God."
3. How does God determine what is a sin? No, it's not in the Bible. There are certain things God told people to do back in ancient israel that were necesarry for their survival (ie. rules for sanitation such as burry your crap when you use teh bathroom, tear dowm a house with mold, wash your hands before eating...etc.)
4. In the garden of Eden. That is the when. There no date on when Adam was in the garden, so the Garden is just its own time perdiod. Some people have tried to date the earth using the Bible, but the 4,000 year old earth estimate isn't actually accurate by Christian standards. Some guy jsut tried to use the geneaology of the Bible to say how old the earth is.
5. Yes. We all have evil, sinful natures. You, me...everyone. But, Adam did ont know evil, but he did know what god told him. It's like telling a 2 year old not to touch the electrical outlet. He doesn't know about electrisity and how it works, he jsut knows you said not to do it.
6. Sin goes against God. I know you might say "well, you define sin is what goes against God, and you define what goes against God as sin...that can't work out." So if you want I can give you a full list of sins, but I dont think you want that.I defined sin as rebellion against God to prevent having to list off what sins there are, but if you see a problem with this tell me and I'll go into detail about what sin is.
7. And I explained otherwise.
8. No. We are atracted to sin. Put any man to the test. If the truth will get us in trouble, we lie. Its nature. We delight in evil things. Different people have inclinations to different sins (some might be porn addicts, other just lie alot). We sin alot.
9. That does not change how we have an inclination to sin.
Man, every question on this thread seems to go back to my Calvinist beliefs. I didn't think that would happen. I'm discussing total depravity with you, unconditional election with others, irresistable grace with others.....Man, the 5 points of Calvinism are the only ones being discussed now. That is surprising to me. Keep in mind everyone, the beliefs of Calvinism is a debated one in Christianity. I believe it, but I'd be willing to bet alot of Christians oyu know/will meet don't believe it.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Terse reply. Any desire to elaborate?
If the point in time which jesus arrived was arbitrary, wouldn't it make more sense for him to arrive in a period such as our own where there are more rigorous means for establishing truth? What sense was there in jesus coming in a time when most jews didn't believe in a messianic prophecy, which essentially guaranteed he would be denied?
"Condensing" doesn't mean "take one out". Why couldn't the "saving", the "showing" and the "judgement" all occur on one trip?
I bring this up because I find the blueprint somewhat confusing: With jesus showing up at some arbitrary point in time, we have have him saving those people who lived before him (and who therefore had no opportunity to accept or deny him), as well as those who live after him (who have not yet been born, and have not yet committed the sins that jesus is saving them from). Are those who lived before and after jesus held to different standards of judgement?
And again, since you seemed to have missed it last time: Do we have free will in heaven?
There are no theists on operating tables.
Okay, to me, the age of understanding seems like a rationalization people use to get around the idea that all unrepentant sinful people go to hell, even when we (the living) don't want them to. If everyone is born sinful, and everyone without faith goes to hell when we die, that means aborted fetuses, failed pregnancies, infants and young children all go to hell when they die, period. They did not live faithful lives (they couldn't have), so they go to hell, as per the rules.
If there is no scriptural basis for the age of understanding, then people who believe this are inserting something into the bible that isn't there in order to justify a belief they hold (babies go to heaven) that goes against something the bible DOES explicitly say (the faithless go to hell). Insertionism doesn't solve problems, it creates them.
Now, you are seemingly aware of this because your position is that God has mercy on those who could not choose faith and allows them into heaven despite their sinful nature. You remove the problem by explaining that it is God's mercy at work, not a lack of sin or capacity to sin.
This, however, poses another problem: sinners cannot get into heaven. By saying that God allows the faithless into heaven, we have a circumstance where God has allowed people into heaven whom have previously been excluded. This capriciousness is the root of my problem. Rules are rules. This can be avoided by appealing to God's sovreignity, but that's not an explanation, that's an excuse.
This explanation was done better by todangst previously, but here's my swing at it (please tell me if any sentences in the paragraph immediately below are incorrect):
God made Adam and Eve, and they were without sin. God made the Garden of Eden, and everything in it. The snake tells Eve to eat the fruit of the tree, and she does. She tells Adam to eat, and he does. God casts them out for disobedience. This is original sin, and the fall of man from perfection.
Here's the problem: the fruit was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Eve and Adam ate, they literally lacked the ability to know the difference between good and evil, so they could not have known what they were doing was wrong; they literally lacked the ability to tell the difference. Additionally, Eve didn't exist when God told Adam not to eat from the tree, and Adam never told Eve not to eat from the tree. Eve eats, incapable of comprehending what she did was going against God's will. Then Adam eats, not knowing where the fruit came from.
So: an omniscient God made the people, the garden, the snake, the apple and the rules. He then blames Adam and Eve for doing something he already knew they'd do when he created them, and casts them out of paradise for doing it.
God made the actors, the stage, and the play. He gave the players their lines, and then punished them for performing.
Not only is God is responsible for the existence of evil, he was unjust in punishing Adam and Eve for a sin they did not have the capacity to recognize as a sin.
It sounds like you believe that although God is responsible for the chaos, we get punished for it. Is this true? If not, how can you reconcile the phrase "...and while He may be responsible for that temporary chaos indirectory, there are still eternal rewards and punishments"? If I am not understanding your meaning, please let me know.
Postponing eternal torment for 80 years cannot be mercy.
Not to mention the problems that omniscience poses for human free will.
--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.
Well its basic because that it. I can't answer the later questions because I don't knows. Who knows why God chooses to do the things He does? There no discussion in scipture about it.
I don't know.
Thats something hotly debated and I have done only limited study on it. My beliefs is there are 3 classes of people who lived before Him
1. People like Isaiah or Moses, whom God garaunteed eternal life.
2. People who followed God's laws as best they could. The people of Israel mostly. These are people who lived and relied on the law to save them. However after Jesus' coming, only grace saves.
3. People who didn't believe in God before Him.
Now since I haven't done much study on it and Idon't see scripture to back up any position I may take, I will just give you the two major points, using 1, 2, and 3 to refer to the groups of people I just metioned.
Theory #1:
That people in groups 1 and 2 are still saved. Since they followed the covanent as it was at that time, they are only judged on the law as of their time. People in group 3 are still lost.
Theory #2:
People in group 1 are eternaly saved. People in group 2 are judged based on God's froreknowlege of who would accept Him or not. Basically Jesus said "ok, if you were to live in this year you would accept me, and you wouldn't." People in group 3 are judged based on the same things as 2.
I tend to lean towards the first one, but I won't make a full statement of my belief until I know more on this topic.
[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes]
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
shikko said it above and my questions were an attempt to lead you to this problem - the "original sin". Because I'm pressed for time I'll go directly to it.
At this point in the story, and up until he actually ate from the tree, adam did not have knowledge of good and evil BECAUSE adam hasn't yet eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
If adam did not have knowledge of good and evil, his eating from the tree was not willful evil, so why was he punished for eating from the tree?
If your answer is adam was punished for disobeying god's command, again I will point out that adam did not know it was wrong to disobey this god BECAUSE he hasn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
2008 I was on a freeway in Salt Lake City at 3:30am in a blizzard. My pick up truck did a 360 on the freeway. I bowed my head quickly and asked if you are real Lord please don't let me hit any car beside me, behind me, or in front of me. When I looked up all was clear. I was safe and there were no cars around me. I slowly continued driving and I said. I knew it was you Lord and the hair in the back of my neck stood up. I then told my wife we need to go to church on Sunday. Since that day the pastor from our church that we attended. Spoke of what was happening during my week or that morning. Jesus (God) was using the pastor as a vessel to reach me. Before all this I was never a church person. I hated going to church. The people are phony, back stabbers, hypocrites and so on. I go to church to worship God not people. I don't care what people think of me. I am a sinner. I will always be a sinner until I die and when Jesus takes me up to his Kingdom. I will be there for eternity. Hope to see you there too.
You want the truth the Bible is the Truth you must have Faith in Jesus he is Our Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I don't know any of you, but Jesus does know you and he loves you. You (I, all of us in this world) were created by a loving God. We have great value. God loves all of us and wants to have a personal relationship with us on a one on one. God doesn't care about skin color, sex, nationalities, religions, or what country we came from. Here he wants us to know him. We are not an accident of nature. The Bible tells us that we are not accidents. We were created by a loving God who knew about us before we were born. We are here for a purpose, we can find ultimate fulfillment by finding a relationship with God. God created you. Read(Psalm 139:13-16) God wants to have a personal relationship with you Read (John 17:3) God loves you Read (John 3:16) We humans to know God is to read the Bible. Start with Proverbs 1-31 I read a verse each day since most months of 31 days in it. These Proverbs will provide you with God's Wisdom. These Proverbs helps me also as a better husband and Father too. Then read John and Matthew. I don't have any answers of my own. I use God to guide me in my life for my work and for my being. It is all about having Faith in God. Thank you Lord Jesus. May God bless all of you.
"I rather believe in something than not to believe in anything at all when I die." Morgan Freeman The movie (Bucket List) What about you?
You know, something similar happened to me. Central Washington, night before Thanksgiving, raining down in Wenatchee. But as we came up the hill out of the Columbia River Gorge, it suddenly switched to ice. There was a car in the ditch in front of us, a car attempting to get back on the highway between the car in the ditch and us. The car behind us starts to spin - I see headlights, taillights, headlights in the rear view mirror. The Volkswagen Beetle in the left lane spins out in front of us behind a semi-tractor trailer. The car behind the Volkswagen is fishtailing. We make it up the hill just fine. And I thank my husband who is one hell of a good driver.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Genesis 2:15-17 (New International Version)
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
God gave Adam choices rather than physically preventing him from eating, God gave Adam choices, and God still give us choices, and we to often choose wrongly. These wrong choices may cause us pain, but they can help us learn and grow and make better choices in the future. Living with consequences of our choices teaching us to think and choose more carefully.
Why would God place a tree in the garden and forbid Adam to eat from it? God wanted Adam to obey, but God gave Adam the freedom to choose. Without choice, Adam would have been like a prisoner, and his obedience would have been hollow. The two trees provided an exercise in choice, with rewards for choosing to obey and sad consequences for choosing to disobey. When you are faced with the choice, always choose to obey God.
I think if Adam and Eve both have repented (meaning they were sorry) and meant it from their hearts instead of putting blame on someone else we would not have evil in our lives now. God would have forgave them. My own personal thought. Want to learn more about Jesus get a bible that you will understand. It helps when it is a study bible. They have more information then a Regular Bible. I really like the NIV Study Bible I have it is a lot easier to understand than King James version... B.I.B.L.E. stands for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
If a baby dies is it sent to hell as it obviously lacks the mental capacity to accept a higher being and pray to it? For that matter, if a person is mentally retarded or severely autistic they might not even be able to be reached, or be able to understand the idea of a dvine being let alone prayer and worship. Are these people given a pass or are they pretty much doomed to hell because God kicked them in the teeth at birth? Here's an interesting one, I am a virtuous bible believing individual, in an accident I end up with amnesia and my new personality (for lack of a better term) is a non-believer or believes in something different. Am I sent to hell, even if I had no control over the loss of my own memory and God apparently didn't send anyone to help. What about a person in the reverse case, they get amnesia and become a bible believing Christian, are they still held under sins that they don't (and can't) remember committing?
On the note of the Garden of Eden, the snake was apparently acting against God at that point, so apparently evil existed before the fall and before Adam ate the fruit. I also say this, no one asks to be born, if God really loves us so much why have we gone so long without a new message? The people of Israel in relatively primitive times seemed to hear from God pretty consistently, we on the other hand seem to be kind of spinning our wheels here.
no baby or child goes to Hell- read story of Bathsheba's child with David........."he will not come to me but I will go to him"
there is a day set upon which God will judge .
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
Do they all go to heaven?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
them with kindness area.
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
be my guest!
As with every christian, our OP starts with the titanic adhom of the garden of eden and original sin and then moves on to christianity's central fallacy from force. Do as you're told or be burned. In this bloke's case we are obligated to say nothing, while the threat is yet again unveiled. This board in particular and this entire forum doesn't allow threats and it activates my swear-o-meter when I have to pretend christians are exempt from the ruling. You'd think a mighty god could come up with better and more sensible proof of his existence and a more even handed manner of dealing with his creation but no. The garden of eden is the best he can do. Believe it or else. It's simply brilliant stuff.
Ed: Civility
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
It's like this. Your beloved god wants to kill us for not believing in him and you are obviously perfectly fine with that. As for being able to suspend morality just because he is god and made us - yeah that makes perfect sense to me. In any case, let's talk about it another time.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
".........it is not God's will that any should perish..............."
'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.
There is even more to it. It is like to intensionally use drugs and alcohol to make sure that your children will have all sorts of birth defects for the reason that they will be surely less perfect and capable than you are.
Hi,
You should be kidding about the lifestyle and income of farmers families. It's about $76K, which is way above average. Also, a relatively small part of it will come from farming, which is often SEASONAL.
100%
Everything is God's will. You either accept Him or go to hell. Do YOU have a problem with this?
Congratulations! Your personal thought would be very unfortunate for religion in general. Imagine no evil. Seriously. Why do you need church then? Religion? Religionmen will make up an evil just to keep people in horror and faith. You cannot have religion without: 1) evil and 2) death.
Have you read "Death with Interruptions". Try it.
Also, I see you like to read. So, I'm sure you have read Dawkins' books. What do you think of them?
My favorite gospel is "The Gospel according to Jesus Christ". It's written very clear and accessible. I also like the idea of Douglas Adams that the Earth will be exterminated to give a way to a transgalactic highway.
Also, when my car turned several times around on icy road, I said "Oh, F&^K!" and I have safely avoided all possible collisions.
Another year, I was driving on ice with my family and I had to stop ASAP because of the car that accidentally stopped in front of me. My car was sliding on the ice. I did not say "Oh, F&^K" because I had kids in the car. My car hit the car in front of me.
So, the moral of this story is that F&^K is great and almighty!
There are tons of books that help to study F&^K. You should try F&^K for yourself. As proven by all human's history F&^K is the only way to eternity. Even Christian Bible says so: "F&^K and multiply!" as it is in a new better interpretation of the Bible which is made for the greatest F&^Kers. Or: "And Adam F&^Ked Eve, and so begun the humankind."
I think there in your spinning car, when you think that you said Lord you actually addressed the great F&^K and the F&^K came and saved you. Hallelujah!
Have you ever heard of Andrea Yates?
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/3.html
She killed her own children so that they would avoid the risk of falling into sin and go to heaven. What do you think about that?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Think about that though 90% of farmers income comes from off the farm. Also you'll notice in that study that the, I believe it says, top 15% skew the average. If you can find the median (which I can't) I'd like to know it. Either way, that income survey is very...uninformed for lack of a better word. Farmers get subsidies, they spend them on costs. If you hire an illegal you can't report the cost of their employment to the government and you cant not tell the government where their subsidy money went. So it goes as income. I grew up in a small southern farm town and have worked on a few farms in my life. It's not quite as easy as "$80k a year and the good life". In fact every farmer I know, including members of my family, live in small houses, have second jobs, and barely pay bills. Agriculture companies and big time farmers can make great money, but they aren't the norm. But that's way off the topic.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Just on your original post, how do you feel about Jesus allegedly walking through doors after rising from the dead? This sounds flippant but isn't meant to be. I always thought a ghost story in the NT was unusual and wondered if he was visible the whole way through. What do you think? Does the door thing constitute another miracle from your perspective or was jesus more ethereal/spiritual after his re-birth?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Figured I'd get in on this thread resurrection.
In your response to me and to others, you seem to have a lot of "I don't knows". Saying "I don't know" is of course better than claiming certainty without evidence, but I have to wonder how you reasoned your way into accepting these beliefs in the first place, without considering basic problems such as these, let alone resolving them.
And you might have missed this last time, so if you'd care to field it now: Do we have free will in heaven?
There are no theists on operating tables.
Anyone notice that jeffrick has 1337 posts?
I don't know if anyone has asked this before but here's a question: Why do so many Christians get upset at atheists just for being atheists? It's not like we don't believe in your god because we're trying to be the devil's advocate. I, personally deny all noumena, whether it be god, or the absurdities of string theory.
Mild PDD-NOS and severe undifferentiated schizophrenia.
It's people like me that should put the oh so loving Christian god to shame, but don't... These people are crazier than I am.
Since this topic got its second life, I have a question.
Do you remember the first time you learned (heard) about God/Christ/Allah/FSM/etc.? Who told you that you will not die after your physical death? I would like all theists AND ATHEIST to answer this question if possible.
My mother told me at age ~9-11 that my grandgrandma believes in god. When I visited my grandgrandma, I asked her why does she believe if it is so clear that there is no god. I do not remember clearly what she said, but as far as I understood it at that time that it is just an old time tradition that many people believed in god. About the same age I was .... baptized in Russian orthodox church
. Believe me or not, I had no clue it does anything with god/jesus/etc. I think my mother believing in all mystic stuff though that baptizing me will help heal me from everything (I think flu was about #1 on that list).
So how about you?
thanks,
100%
Here is why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU
Personally, I think that they are really scared and uncomfortable about the very existence of a single atheist. Especially at schools. Don't talk to kids about god until 21 and the religion will fall apart as a playcard house in one generation.