Questions for a Christian?

Crossover
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Questions for a Christian?

Got any? When I say questions I mean doctrinal questions. Like "why does God allow epole to starve" or "explain you wacky view of three Gods in one"....not science stuff and not debate stuff. This is for people who would actually like to learn more about the people they have come to disagree with. I don't want this to be a debate...just Q & A. Later I will post a questions for athiest topic, where I will ask you questions and you will answer them for me...no debates, just Q & A.

 

So, any questions???????

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Crossover wrote: Susan

Crossover wrote:
Susan wrote:

Please explain that to the infant or toddler born with a terrible affliction or disease.

Sorry, the original sin explaination doesn't suffice here. Causing suffering to an innocent is the same as putting me in jail because the guy down the street robbed a gas station. I didn't do it. I couldn't stop it. Heck, I don't even know the guy!

That's not a very nice god to cause pain and suffering to a tiny baby because somebody else did something wrong. That child is neither a criminal nor a sinner.

Please explain that to the victims of Hurricane Katrina who lost everything including loved ones. No doubt there were plenty of good, god-fearing xians who suffered terribly and deserved NONE of it.

Take it one step further. Please explain it to all the animals that suffer cruelty, affliction and disease. They cannot comprehend any of it. They only know that they suffer.

Everyone is born in sin. We have a sin nature. You ARE the criminal. You have sinned. Do not deny that, because that in and of itself would be a sin...a lie. The child is a sinner. The term "original sin" comes in...also "total depravity". Looke those up.

Again, not a very nice god.  Why bother being born if you're already "convicted"?  (No, an argument of "but you get the chance to straighten up and worship the entity that condemned you in the first place" does not suffice.)

Born in sin?  A child does not have the capacity to comprehend a "sinful nature".  There's nothing more innocent than a newborn.  If you don't believe that, you haven't held a tiny baby lately.

Once again, it's like the guy down the street robbing a gas station and I'm the one thrown in jail. 

 

Crossover wrote:
As far a Christians and huricane Katrina. I think that Christian suffering has been touched on earlier in the discussion. I think it was me talkin to Fish. But, also, look at my last post. God uses suffering to build our character, to build our faith, to test our faith, and to help us. I used a huricane analogy in another post, with Katrina in mind specifically.

Much like an abusive husband smacking the (&R%# out of his wife to make sure she still loves him afterward.  That does not build character or test anything except the amount of time and willpower it takes to flee from the abuser. 

Crossover wrote:
Animal sufering. Well, they have no "soul"...and they have not sinned. Most animal suffering is really caused by humans. If this answer isn't thorough enough then please provid an example. I'm having a hard time thinking of any animal suffering not caused by humans.

If there were such a thing as a soul, then there's no doubt my critters would have them.  There is intelligence, sometimes a bit of cognitive thinking and sometimes even humor. 

If you believe in souls, how can you possibly believe animals have no souls? 

Animal suffering?  Critters have their share of maladies.

How about my Sylvia Rose that died of acute kidney failure?  How about my Flossie Fiona that (probably) had a brain tumor?  How about my Ivy Elizabeth that had gall bladder problems and pancreatitis (undiagnosed even though she had just ungone multiple tests including ultrasound).

How about my special Emma Jean that had hyperglycemia, hypocalemia, hypertension, painful occular blood clots, mild chronic renal failure, etc etc etc?  

All had excellent care and better than excellent medical care.  When the suffering was evidenced, (sadly) I had to have them euthanized.

Don't misunderstand me, I do not believe in souls.  However, since you do, how can you believe critters don't have them?  

Do you have evidence or is it just what your church tells you?

(My apologies if that came off as a rant.  Critters are a hot button for me.) 

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zarathustra
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I believe you missed the

I believe you missed the point of both questions.

1) What is the significance of the historical period during which jesus supposedly lived and died?

Crossover wrote:
Jesus could have lived during a different time, but it would have had to line up with the prophecies.

Is there anything significant about the fact that the jesus story with its attendant "fulfillment of prophecies" transpired at this particular point in history and not another? Is it noteworthy that the majority of jews at the time (1st century) did not subscribe to the messianic prophecy?

2) Why is it necessary for jesus to return? Why couldn't jesus have shown up just once at the end of time and paid for everyone's sins then?

Crossover wrote:
And the reasons Jesus had to return are...

I didn't ask why jesus had to return; I asked why jesus has to return. Why does the script run like this:

1. god creates world

2. time passes

3. jesus comes down to earth from heaven

4. jesus dies and resurrects

5. jesus goes back to heaven

6. more time passes

7. jesus comes back to earth from heaven

8. world ends

Why does jesus have to make 2 trips? Why not condense the storyline a bit?


Another question: Do we have free will in heaven?


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Hi Crossover Sorry to be so

Hi Crossover

Sorry to be so late getting back with you - had to set up medical crap, work, go to school, etc (y'know, life)

Anyway, predestination, while it is mentioned in the Bible, still confuses me. I still can't get past how foreordained doesn't equal foreknown.

I would like your views on these sites (PM if you wish)

http://www.bible.ca/calvinism.htm

http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism.htm

thanks 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Crossover wrote: shikko

Crossover wrote:

shikko wrote:

So everyone is born guilty, and anyone unsaved will go to hell for eternity. I think I've got that straight now

Yes. Now that you understand it I'll add in a few exeptions. I believe in something called teh age of understanding. Which means, if a baby is born and dies a a few weeks later, or if a mentaly retarded person lives to be 100...they can still go to heaven. Only those who have the intellectual capacity to understand the idea of God can be held accountable. There is no particular age, rather a particular level of understanding.

CAtholics believe infant baptism is the only way to save babies, but I do not.

Is there any scriptural backing for the age of understanding?

I ask because that concept seems to lead to theological problems. It also seems to further cement that God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil.

Quote:

Quote:

So are you telling me that you agree with the idea of God being ultimately responsible for the bad things humans to do each other?

I'm saying that God allowed men to have the will to make the choices that became bad things. God gave Hitler a choice to be a mass murdered or a doctor...Hitler chose murdered. God gives choise, people make choice.

That's doesn't answer the question, though. I understand the concept of god giving people free will; I have no problem with the ability to make decisions and being responsible for the effects of actions. BUT, if as you say, everything is either God's will or God's plan, that means he's responsible, either directly or indirectly, for everything that happens. Right? How could he not be? To say otherwise is to claim there are activities outside God's control.

If God allowed Hitler to make bad choices, God did not actually do those things, but he is responsible for allowing it, just like I would be responsible for not stopping my son from hurting himself right in front of me (I could see it coming, I knew what he was doing, and let him play with the hammer anyway). I may have wanted him to learn a lesson, but it's still my responsibility he got hurt since I could have prevented it. Right?

Quote:

Quote:

Also, this sounds like predestination allows for someone to live a pious, faithful, model Christian life and going to hell anyway because that's what God preordained. Can this happen?

No, because if you live a truely faithful life then you basically were predestined. Faith in God is a gift from God, which means if you have faith in God then you were given it because God predestined you.

This sounds like an explanation for why some people are good and some people are bad. This also sounds like God wants some people in hell, since if they weren't living a faithful life, it's because he didn't want them to. How is predestination not responsible for people going to hell if it is responsible for people going to heaven?

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not sure how to fit this idea in with the commonly accepted view of God as an omnimax being. I know that people often say that just because god is omnipotent doesn't imply that he WILL do anything, just that he CAN. If he is, how can God not find a way to accomplish his will without increasing human suffering? Wouldn't that be the merciful thing to do?

Let's go back to the story of Adam and Eve. This world was perfect. Adam (and Eve) sinned. That made this world fallen. God told Adam not to eat from one tree, and Adam chose to eat from that one tree. It was the choice of man that caused the fall of man. Could God have created Adam and not given Him the choice of eating from taht tree? Yes...and that would have saved humanity. But God gave us a choice to show us that we are below Him.

(snip)

The story of the fall poses a whole new set of problems for me, which the idea of the age of reason complicates. If you must have a certain level of intellectual comprehension before you can go to hell, do you have to have a certain level of intellectualy ability before you can sin?

Quote:

Quote:

Predestination causes me some intellectual problems. I can't understand how God can be considered just while at the same time casting people into hell for eternity if that's what he chooses to have happen. So does predestination dictate that some people will go to hell because that is God's will, or just that there are people guaranteed to go to heaven, because that is God's will?

That is the biggest objection to predestination there is, even amongst Christans. "a God who predestins can't be just". Well, I'll explain it like this.

-We have all sinned

-Because of our love for si we have no desire for God.

-God HAD to give us that desire.

-Since we have all sinned He paid the price for that sin

-Since we have all sinned, and we have no desire for Him he gives justice to a few.

Picture a court, where there are 3 defendants and God is the judge. God says to one, "I will have mercy on you. You deserve justice, but my son paid the price for you". He says to the others"you have committed a crime...you deserve justice and justice is what you will have."

So God isn't not just for choosing to save some. It's just that He chose to save some, and chose to exercise justice on others.

So god is only merciful to a few? How does god decide who gets saved and who doesn't?

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Crossover
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susan wrote: Again, not a

susan wrote:

Again, not a very nice god.  Why bother being born if you're already "convicted"?  (No, an argument of "but you get the chance to straighten up and worship the entity that condemned you in the first place" does not suffice.)

Born in sin?  A child does not have the capacity to comprehend a "sinful nature".  There's nothing more innocent than a newborn.  If you don't believe that, you haven't held a tiny baby lately.

Once again, it's like the guy down the street robbing a gas station and I'm the one thrown in jail. 

And yet that is life. Is it fair that a small time farmer works endless hours in heat, snow, rain, cold, etc. but the son of a rich guy gets some kushy job where he does no work but makes triple what the farmer makes? Nope. Is that life? Yep.

Because Adam sinned he cursed humanity to be born in sin.

Quote:

Much like an abusive husband smacking the (&R%# out of his wife to make sure she still loves him afterward.  That does not build character or test anything except the amount of time and willpower it takes to flee from the abuser.

read earlier in the post. Read the story I wrote and you'll see why you're wrong about that.

Quote:

Don't misunderstand me, I do not believe in souls.  However, since you do, how can you believe critters don't have them?  

No. Animals do not have souls. They have intelligence, humor...everything you said. But a soul is something God created only humans with. Angels do not even have souls. Do animals have brains? yes. A soul? No.

Quote:

Do you have evidence or is it just what your church tells you?

Can i give you a soul? No. Scriptural evidence? Yes.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Crossover wrote: Can i give

Crossover wrote:
Can i give you a soul? No. Scriptural evidence? Yes.

I have evidence, from scripture, that there is no soul.


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Crossover wrote: susan

Crossover wrote:

susan wrote:

Again, not a very nice god. Why bother being born if you're already "convicted"? (No, an argument of "but you get the chance to straighten up and worship the entity that condemned you in the first place" does not suffice.)

Born in sin? A child does not have the capacity to comprehend a "sinful nature". There's nothing more innocent than a newborn. If you don't believe that, you haven't held a tiny baby lately.

Once again, it's like the guy down the street robbing a gas station and I'm the one thrown in jail.

And yet that is life. Is it fair that a small time farmer works endless hours in heat, snow, rain, cold, etc. but the son of a rich guy gets some kushy job where he does no work but makes triple what the farmer makes? Nope. Is that life? Yep.

Because Adam sinned he cursed humanity to be born in sin.

Quote:

Much like an abusive husband smacking the (&R%# out of his wife to make sure she still loves him afterward. That does not build character or test anything except the amount of time and willpower it takes to flee from the abuser.

read earlier in the post. Read the story I wrote and you'll see why you're wrong about that.

Quote:

Don't misunderstand me, I do not believe in souls. However, since you do, how can you believe critters don't have them?

No. Animals do not have souls. They have intelligence, humor...everything you said. But a soul is something God created only humans with. Angels do not even have souls. Do animals have brains? yes. A soul? No.

Quote:

Do you have evidence or is it just what your church tells you?

Can i give you a soul? No. Scriptural evidence? Yes.

You assert so very much, but provide nothing to back it up.

By the way, the bible/scripture doesn't count.

Please provide evidence or your assertions. 

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Crossover
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shikko wrote: Is there any

shikko wrote:

Is there any scriptural backing for the age of understanding?

I ask because that concept seems to lead to theological problems. It also seems to further cement that God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil.

Not really. See, this is an issue that has divided the church for many years...and there is little direct Scriptural talk of it. Kind David in the Old Testament did have a child die, and God gave David confidence taht he would see His child again. But it is key to note that it is not by babies innocence but by God's grace taht they are allowed into heaven. Because as I said earlier to Susan, even babies are born sinful. now I know I just touched on babies, because if you belive babies go to heaven you have to believe there is a time when God holds people accountable for their sins.

 

But how does this mean that God is responsible for the existance of evil?

Quote:

That's doesn't answer the question, though. I understand the concept of god giving people free will; I have no problem with the ability to make decisions and being responsible for the effects of actions. BUT, if as you say, everything is either God's will or God's plan, that means he's responsible, either directly or indirectly, for everything that happens. Right? How could he not be? To say otherwise is to claim there are activities outside God's control.

If God allowed Hitler to make bad choices, God did not actually do those things, but he is responsible for allowing it, just like I would be responsible for not stopping my son from hurting himself right in front of me (I could see it coming, I knew what he was doing, and let him play with the hammer anyway). I may have wanted him to learn a lesson, but it's still my responsibility he got hurt since I could have prevented it. Right?

You are right and wrong at the same time. The example about your child is flawed. The things of this earth are NOTHING. The example with your child has nothing eternal to it, and you are not soveriegn. A sovereign God can create man and give him the choice to create chaos...and while He may be responsible for that temporary chaos indirectly, there are still eternal rewards and punishments. the biggest key is to understand that god gave US the will to choose sin ro good and we chose sin. The chose of sin caused chaos. God may have seen that coming, but the only way to prevent that would be to not give us chosie...that would make us eternaly perfect and equal with Him. That just doesn't work out. Even angels aren't eternal or perfect.

Quote:

The story of the fall poses a whole new set of problems for me, which the idea of the age of reason complicates. If you must have a certain level of intellectual comprehension before you can go to hell, do you have to have a certain level of intellectualy ability before you can sin?

No. You are born into a sin nature. I'll quote something from earlier in the post to help clear this up.

"But it is key to note that it is not by babies innocence but by God's grace that they are allowed into heaven."

I see your problem here and I think that helps. You may have to do some dot connecting, but I think that pretty much answers your problem. IF not tell me and I'll elaborate. I see what you're talking about though.

Quote:

So god is only merciful to a few? How does god decide who gets saved and who doesn't?

He is merciful to all in that He doesn't just send us all to hell right now. But hHe is merciful to some in that He saves them forever. And how he decide? I do not know. I don't think scripture is clear on that. Flip a coin, eeny meeny miny mo, whichever names he draws from a hat...it could be anything. I don't know.

Some will argue against predestination saying that HE only chose by looking through time and seeing who would choose Him...and that's how he chose people. But that has so many problems with it. For example there was no time before the world started.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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zarathustra wrote: Is

zarathustra wrote:

Is there anything significant about the fact that the jesus story with its attendant "fulfillment of prophecies" transpired at this particular point in history and not another? Is it noteworthy that the majority of jews at the time (1st century) did not subscribe to the messianic prophecy?

No and No.

Quote:

Why does jesus have to make 2 trips? Why not condense the storyline a bit?

Well, He made/will make 3 trips. One as a man. One as a spirit, and the other that hasn't happened yet. Why? The first to save us. The second to show power over death. The third to judge us. HE can't condense it because if you take one out it all falls apart. he has to come back to judge the world, or else the world will go on forever.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Crossover wrote:

Crossover wrote:
Everyone is born in sin
What is sin?

Who determines what is sin?

How is anyone born in sin?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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aiia wrote: Crossover

aiia wrote:

Crossover wrote:
Everyone is born in sin
What is sin?

Who determines what is sin?

How is anyone born in sin?

Sin is breaking of Gods laws.

God determines sin.

Some one is born in sin because of Adam. When Adam sinned he became evil and took on a nature to reject God and His laws...which everyone inherets. Everyone is born with a natural rebellion against god.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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CrimsonEdge

CrimsonEdge wrote:

Crossover wrote:
Can i give you a soul? No. Scriptural evidence? Yes.

I have evidence, from scripture, that there is no soul.

Please, share.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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susan wrote:You assert so

susan wrote:

You assert so very much, but provide nothing to back it up.

By the way, the bible/scripture doesn't count.

Please provide evidence or your assertions. 

What you are asking me to do is impossible. you're asking me to defend a Biblical stance without using the Bible. That's like saying "proove this paper is pink without talking about colors or paper". I'm telling you what I believe...I'm not arguing a point. You're telling me to provide evidence for assertions that I make without using the Bible, when the Bible is the only reason I can make such asserting.

You can't say "ok, well all your evidence comes from the Bible...so support a stance that comes strickly from the Bible without using the Bible." Its impossible. Its like saying "ok, you're belief is based on science...now support your belief without refering to the belief in question."

Yes I assert much, but you are asking me a uetsion about the Bible. I can not answer a question about something that comes from the Bible without using the Bible.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Crossover wrote: aiia

Crossover wrote:
aiia wrote:


Crossover wrote:
Everyone is born in sin
What is sin?

Who determines what is sin?

How is anyone born in sin?



Sin is breaking of Gods laws.

God determines sin.

Some one is born in sin because of Adam. When Adam sinned he became evil and took on a nature to reject God and His laws...which everyone inherets. Everyone is born with a natural rebellion against god.
What is a god?
What are the laws of god?
How does god determine what is sin?
When did adam sin?
Why do you claim adam became evil?
What is evil?
How did adam reject god and the laws?
How does everyone inherit these laws?
Why would everyone be born with 'natural rebellion towards a god?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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One question which got lost

One question which got lost in the shuffle was one by Kemono and I about the ontological dilemma associated with the contradictory nature of God's attributes. Any reasonable person will find this insurmountable as a problem. In argumentative form, the problem is expressed by me here:

On the Problem of Interaction and the Concluding Piece of the Series: The Absurdity of an Immaterial Mind

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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aiia wrote: What is a

aiia wrote:

What is a god?
What are the laws of god?
How does god determine what is sin?
When did adam sin?
Why do you claim adam became evil?
What is evil?
How did adam reject god and the laws?
How does everyone inherit these laws?
Why would everyone be born with 'natural rebellion towards a god?

1. Been answered in about page 2 I think.

2. In basic form...the 10 Commandments. But mostly its disobeying God. Tahts why anything is a sin. Rebellion against God.

3. I don't know.

4. In the garden of Eden.

5. He sinned. God told him not to eat from the tree, and He did. It says in Genesis Adam chose a curse.

6. I'm not sure I can give you a clear cut and dry definition...but the best I can say is evil is what goes against God.

7. Ate from teh one tree he was told not to.

8. Because Adam became evil, man became evil. mand took on a sinful nature by Adams choice. Now we all have a natural inclination to sin.We are attracted to sin.

9. Why? I do not know. Just because Adam was real stupid!

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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deludedgod wrote: One

deludedgod wrote:

One question which got lost in the shuffle was one by Kemono and I about the ontological dilemma associated with the contradictory nature of God's attributes. Any reasonable person will find this insurmountable as a problem. In argumentative form, the problem is expressed by me here:

On the Problem of Interaction and the Concluding Piece of the Series: The Absurdity of an Immaterial Mind

I thought I answered taht one. In any case I'll try to get to it later. I'm getting more questions and less time to answer.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Crossover wrote:

Crossover wrote:


aiia wrote:


What is a god?
What are the laws of god?
How does god determine what is sin?
When did adam sin?
Why do you claim adam became evil?
What is evil?
How did adam reject god and the laws?
How does everyone inherit these laws?
Why would everyone be born with 'natural rebellion towards a god?



1. Been answered in about page 2 I think.

2. In basic form...the 10 Commandments. But mostly its disobeying God. Tahts why anything is a sin. Rebellion against God.

3. I don't know.

4. In the garden of Eden.

5. He sinned. God told him not to eat from the tree, and He did. It says in Genesis Adam chose a curse.

6. I'm not sure I can give you a clear cut and dry definition...but the best I can say is evil is what goes against God.

7. Ate from teh one tree he was told not to.

8. Because Adam became evil, man became evil. mand took on a sinful nature by Adams choice. Now we all have a natural inclination to sin.We are attracted to sin.

9. Why? I do not know. Just because Adam was real stupid!
1 no you haven't, but even if you did why not answer anyway

2 Are you claiming adam knew the 10 commandments? And what do you mean "anything is a sin"? Do you mean "everything is a sin"?

3 Isn't that in the bible somewhere?

4 I didn't ask where, I asked when. What did he do?

5 You claim adam became evil after he sinned and you also claim everyone is born in sin. Then you basically think everyone is evil, right?
Farther more, this thing called god instructed adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why was adam judged by god to have done something wrong when adam had no knowledge of good or evil until adam ate from the tree? Surely you see the problem here? adam did not know it was wrong to ignore god's instruction to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil UNTIL he ate from the tree.

6 Then what goes against god?

7 I just explained that adam could not have known it was wrong to ignore this god's instructions

8 Ignoring instructions is hardly an act of evil. What is "sinful nature"? Your claim is that we all have a natural inclination to sin. I think you're projecting here, but actually I've never witnessed this natural inclination to "sin" (which has yet to be defined). Do you live in a hospital for the criminally insane because this is the only place where there would be people who are naturally inclined to sin? And again I think you're projecting when you claim we are attracted to sin.

9 It was because he did not have any knowledge of good and evil

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Crossover wrote: Please,

Crossover wrote:
Please, share.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

A person does not have a soul. A person is a living soul (Genesis 2:7).

When a person dies, the soul dies, that is to say, if a person is a living soul (which it is according to Genesis 2:7). In other words, the existance of the soul relies entirely on the person existing.

In other words, the soul is the brain of the person. 


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CrimsonEdge

CrimsonEdge wrote:

Crossover wrote:
Please, share.

http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

A person does not have a soul. A person is a living soul (Genesis 2:7).

When a person dies, the soul dies, that is to say, if a person is a living soul (which it is according to Genesis 2:7). In other words, the existance of the soul relies entirely on the person existing.

In other words, the soul is the brain of the person.

The word soul as used in Genesis 2:7 is a person. Yes. The word soul as in what I am refering to is not just the brain of the person.

 

In Genesis 2:7 the word used is nephesh...which means 

) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man

b) living being

c) living being (with life in the blood)

d) the man himself, self, person or individual

The word soul as used mostly in the New Testament, which is what I am refering to, is psychē...which means

the soul

a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life

 

 

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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aiia wrote:

aiia wrote:
1 no you haven't, but even if you did why not answer anyway

2 Are you claiming adam knew the 10 commandments? And what do you mean "anything is a sin"? Do you mean "everything is a sin"?

3 Isn't that in the bible somewhere?

4 I didn't ask where, I asked when. What did he do?

5 You claim adam became evil after he sinned and you also claim everyone is born in sin. Then you basically think everyone is evil, right?
Farther more, this thing called god instructed adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why was adam judged by god to have done something wrong when adam had no knowledge of good or evil until adam ate from the tree? Surely you see the problem here? adam did not know it was wrong to ignore god's instruction to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil UNTIL he ate from the tree.

6 Then what goes against god?

7 I just explained that adam could not have known it was wrong to ignore this god's instructions

8 Ignoring instructions is hardly an act of evil. What is "sinful nature"? Your claim is that we all have a natural inclination to sin. I think you're projecting here, but actually I've never witnessed this natural inclination to "sin" (which has yet to be defined). Do you live in a hospital for the criminally insane because this is the only place where there would be people who are naturally inclined to sin? And again I think you're projecting when you claim we are attracted to sin.

9 It was because he did not have any knowledge of good and evil

 

1. I'll find it and post it later. It was alot and to much to retype.

2. No, he knew what God told him. Today there are mroesins that njust the 10 Commandments, and the only sin back then was disobeying God...which Adam did. And what I mean by anyhting is a sin is "the reason anything that is a sin is a sin is the it is rebellion against God."

3. How does God determine what is a sin? No, it's not in the Bible. There are certain things God told people to do back in ancient israel that were necesarry for their survival (ie. rules for sanitation such as burry your crap when you use teh bathroom, tear dowm a house with mold, wash your hands before eating...etc.)

4. In the garden of Eden. That is the when. There no date on when Adam was in the garden, so the Garden is just its own time perdiod. Some people have tried to date the earth using the Bible, but the 4,000 year old earth estimate isn't actually accurate by Christian standards. Some guy jsut tried to use the geneaology of the Bible to say how old the earth is.

5. Yes. We all have evil, sinful natures. You, me...everyone. But, Adam did ont know evil, but he did know what god told him. It's like telling a 2 year old not to touch the electrical outlet. He doesn't know about electrisity and how it works, he jsut knows you said not to do it.

6. Sin goes against God. I know you might say "well, you define sin is what goes against God, and you define what goes against God as sin...that can't work out." So if you want I can give you a full list of sins, but I dont think you want that.I defined sin as rebellion against God to prevent having to list off what sins there are, but if you see a problem with this tell me and I'll go into detail about what sin is.

7. And I explained otherwise.

8. No. We are atracted to sin. Put any man to the test. If the truth will get us in trouble, we lie. Its nature. We delight in evil things. Different people have inclinations to different sins (some might be porn addicts, other just lie alot). We sin alot.

9. That does not change how we have an inclination to sin.

 

 

Man, every question on this thread seems to go back to my Calvinist beliefs. I didn't think that would happen. I'm discussing total depravity with you, unconditional election with others, irresistable grace with others.....Man, the 5 points of Calvinism are the only ones being discussed now. That is surprising to me. Keep in mind everyone, the beliefs of Calvinism is a debated one in Christianity. I believe it, but I'd be willing to bet alot of Christians oyu know/will meet don't believe it.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Crossover

Crossover wrote:

zarathustra wrote:

Is there anything significant about the fact that the jesus story with its attendant "fulfillment of prophecies" transpired at this particular point in history and not another? Is it noteworthy that the majority of jews at the time (1st century) did not subscribe to the messianic prophecy?

No and No.

Terse reply.  Any desire to elaborate?  

If the point in time which jesus arrived was arbitrary, wouldn't it make more sense for him to arrive in a period such as our own where there are more rigorous means for establishing truth?   What sense was there in jesus coming in a time when most jews didn't believe in a messianic prophecy, which essentially guaranteed he would be denied?

Crossover wrote:

Quote:

Why does jesus have to make 2 trips? Why not condense the storyline a bit?

Well, He made/will make 3 trips. One as a man. One as a spirit, and the other that hasn't happened yet. Why? The first to save us. The second to show power over death. The third to judge us. HE can't condense it because if you take one out it all falls apart. he has to come back to judge the world, or else the world will go on forever.

"Condensing" doesn't mean "take one out".  Why couldn't the "saving", the "showing" and the "judgement" all occur on one trip? 

I bring this up because I find the blueprint somewhat confusing:  With jesus showing up at some arbitrary point in time, we have have him saving those people who lived before him (and who therefore had no opportunity to accept or deny him), as well as those who live after him (who have not yet been born, and have not yet committed the sins that jesus is saving them from).  Are those who lived before and after jesus held to different standards of judgement?  

 

And again, since you seemed to have missed it last time:  Do we have free will in heaven?

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Crossover wrote: shikko

Crossover wrote:

shikko wrote:

Is there any scriptural backing for the age of understanding?

I ask because that concept seems to lead to theological problems. It also seems to further cement that God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil.

Not really. See, this is an issue that has divided the church for many years...and there is little direct Scriptural talk of it. Kind David in the Old Testament did have a child die, and God gave David confidence taht he would see His child again. But it is key to note that it is not by babies innocence but by God's grace taht they are allowed into heaven. Because as I said earlier to Susan, even babies are born sinful. now I know I just touched on babies, because if you belive babies go to heaven you have to believe there is a time when God holds people accountable for their sins.

Okay, to me, the age of understanding seems like a rationalization people use to get around the idea that all unrepentant sinful people go to hell, even when we (the living) don't want them to. If everyone is born sinful, and everyone without faith goes to hell when we die, that means aborted fetuses, failed pregnancies, infants and young children all go to hell when they die, period. They did not live faithful lives (they couldn't have), so they go to hell, as per the rules.

If there is no scriptural basis for the age of understanding, then people who believe this are inserting something into the bible that isn't there in order to justify a belief they hold (babies go to heaven) that goes against something the bible DOES explicitly say (the faithless go to hell). Insertionism doesn't solve problems, it creates them.

Now, you are seemingly aware of this because your position is that God has mercy on those who could not choose faith and allows them into heaven despite their sinful nature. You remove the problem by explaining that it is God's mercy at work, not a lack of sin or capacity to sin.

This, however, poses another problem: sinners cannot get into heaven. By saying that God allows the faithless into heaven, we have a circumstance where God has allowed people into heaven whom have previously been excluded. This capriciousness is the root of my problem. Rules are rules. This can be avoided by appealing to God's sovreignity, but that's not an explanation, that's an excuse.

Quote:

But how does this mean that God is responsible for the existance of evil?

This explanation was done better by todangst previously, but here's my swing at it (please tell me if any sentences in the paragraph immediately below are incorrect):

God made Adam and Eve, and they were without sin. God made the Garden of Eden, and everything in it. The snake tells Eve to eat the fruit of the tree, and she does. She tells Adam to eat, and he does. God casts them out for disobedience. This is original sin, and the fall of man from perfection.

Here's the problem: the fruit was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When Eve and Adam ate, they literally lacked the ability to know the difference between good and evil, so they could not have known what they were doing was wrong; they literally lacked the ability to tell the difference. Additionally, Eve didn't exist when God told Adam not to eat from the tree, and Adam never told Eve not to eat from the tree. Eve eats, incapable of comprehending what she did was going against God's will. Then Adam eats, not knowing where the fruit came from.

So: an omniscient God made the people, the garden, the snake, the apple and the rules. He then blames Adam and Eve for doing something he already knew they'd do when he created them, and casts them out of paradise for doing it.

God made the actors, the stage, and the play. He gave the players their lines, and then punished them for performing.

Not only is God is responsible for the existence of evil, he was unjust in punishing Adam and Eve for a sin they did not have the capacity to recognize as a sin.

Quote:

You are right and wrong at the same time. The example about your child is flawed. The things of this earth are NOTHING. The example with your child has nothing eternal to it, and you are not soveriegn. A sovereign God can create man and give him the choice to create chaos...and while He may be responsible for that temporary chaos indirectly, there are still eternal rewards and punishments. the biggest key is to understand that god gave US the will to choose sin ro good and we chose sin. The chose of sin caused chaos. God may have seen that coming, but the only way to prevent that would be to not give us chosie...that would make us eternaly perfect and equal with Him. That just doesn't work out. Even angels aren't eternal or perfect.

It sounds like you believe that although God is responsible for the chaos, we get punished for it. Is this true? If not, how can you reconcile the phrase "...and while He may be responsible for that temporary chaos indirectory, there are still eternal rewards and punishments"? If I am not understanding your meaning, please let me know.


Quote:

Quote:

So god is only merciful to a few? How does god decide who gets saved and who doesn't?

He is merciful to all in that He doesn't just send us all to hell right now. But hHe is merciful to some in that He saves them forever. And how he decide? I do not know. I don't think scripture is clear on that. Flip a coin, eeny meeny miny mo, whichever names he draws from a hat...it could be anything. I don't know.

Postponing eternal torment for 80 years cannot be mercy.

Quote:

Some will argue against predestination saying that HE only chose by looking through time and seeing who would choose Him...and that's how he chose people. But that has so many problems with it. For example there was no time before the world started.

Not to mention the problems that omniscience poses for human free will.

 

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zarathustra

zarathustra wrote:

Terse reply. Any desire to elaborate?

If the point in time which jesus arrived was arbitrary, wouldn't it make more sense for him to arrive in a period such as our own where there are more rigorous means for establishing truth? What sense was there in jesus coming in a time when most jews didn't believe in a messianic prophecy, which essentially guaranteed he would be denied?

Well its basic because that it. I can't answer the later questions because I don't knows. Who knows why God chooses to do the things He does? There no discussion in scipture about it.

Quote:

"Condensing" doesn't mean "take one out". Why couldn't the "saving", the "showing" and the "judgement" all occur on one trip?

I don't know.

Quote:

I bring this up because I find the blueprint somewhat confusing: With jesus showing up at some arbitrary point in time, we have have him saving those people who lived before him (and who therefore had no opportunity to accept or deny him), as well as those who live after him (who have not yet been born, and have not yet committed the sins that jesus is saving them from). Are those who lived before and after jesus held to different standards of judgement?

Thats something hotly debated and I have done only limited study on it. My beliefs is there are 3 classes of people who lived before Him

1. People like Isaiah or Moses, whom God garaunteed eternal life.

2. People who followed God's laws as best they could. The people of Israel mostly. These are people who lived and relied on the law to save them. However after Jesus' coming, only grace saves.

3. People who didn't believe in God before Him.

 

Now since I haven't done much study on it and Idon't see scripture to back up any position I may take, I will just give you the two major points, using 1, 2, and 3 to refer to the groups of people I just metioned.

Theory #1:

That people in groups 1 and 2 are still saved. Since they followed the covanent as it was at that time, they are only judged on the law as of their time. People in group 3 are still lost.

Theory #2:

People in group 1 are eternaly saved. People in group 2 are judged based on God's froreknowlege of who would accept Him or not. Basically Jesus said "ok, if you were to live in this year you would accept me, and you wouldn't." People in group 3 are judged based on the same things as 2.

 

I tend to lean towards the first one, but I won't make a full statement of my belief until I know more on this topic.

 

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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shikko said it above and my

shikko said it above and my questions were an attempt to lead you to this problem - the "original sin". Because I'm pressed for time I'll go directly to it.

Crossover wrote:
2. No, he knew what God told him.
according to the story, god told adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
At this point in the story, and up until he actually ate from the tree, adam did not have knowledge of good and evil BECAUSE adam hasn't yet eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
If adam did not have knowledge of good and evil, his eating from the tree was not willful evil, so why was he punished for eating from the tree?
If your answer is adam was punished for disobeying god's command, again I will point out that adam did not know it was wrong to disobey this god BECAUSE he hasn't eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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To answer why I believe in God as known as Jesus

2008 I was on a freeway in Salt Lake City at 3:30am in a blizzard. My pick up truck did a 360 on the freeway. I bowed my head quickly and asked if you are real Lord please don't let me hit any car beside me, behind me, or in front of me. When I looked up all was clear. I was safe and there were no cars around me. I slowly continued driving and I said. I knew it was you Lord and the hair in the back of my neck stood up. I then told my wife we need to go to church on Sunday. Since that day the pastor from our church that we attended. Spoke of what was happening during my week or that morning. Jesus (God) was using the pastor as a vessel to reach me. Before all this I was never a church person. I hated going to church. The people are phony, back stabbers, hypocrites and so on. I go to church to worship God not people. I don't care what people think of me. I am a sinner. I will always be a sinner until I die and when Jesus takes me up to his Kingdom. I will be there for eternity. Hope to see you there too.

 You want the truth the Bible is the Truth you must have Faith in Jesus he is Our Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I don't know any of you, but Jesus does know you and he loves you. You (I, all of us in this world) were created by a loving God. We  have great value. God loves all of us and wants to have a personal relationship with us on a one on one. God doesn't care about skin color, sex, nationalities, religions, or what country we came from. Here he wants us to know him. We are not an accident of nature. The Bible tells us that we are not accidents. We were created by a loving God who knew about us before we were born. We are here for a purpose, we can find ultimate fulfillment by finding a relationship with God. God created you. Read(Psalm 139:13-16) God wants to have a personal relationship with you Read (John 17:3) God loves you Read (John 3:16) We humans to know God is to read the Bible. Start with Proverbs 1-31 I read a verse each day since most months of 31 days in it. These Proverbs will provide you with God's Wisdom. These Proverbs helps me also as a better husband and Father too. Then read John and Matthew. I don't have any answers of my own. I use God to guide me in my life for my work and for my being. It is all about having Faith in God. Thank you Lord Jesus. May God bless all of you.

 

"I rather believe in something than not to believe in anything at all when I die." Morgan Freeman The movie (Bucket List) What about you?

 


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thayward65 wrote:2008 I was

thayward65 wrote:

2008 I was on a freeway in Salt Lake City at 3:30am in a blizzard. My pick up truck did a 360 on the freeway. I bowed my head quickly and asked if you are real Lord please don't let me hit any car beside me, behind me, or in front of me. When I looked up all was clear. I was safe and there were no cars around me. I slowly continued driving and I said. I knew it was you Lord and the hair in the back of my neck stood up. I then told my wife we need to go to church on Sunday. Since that day the pastor from our church that we attended. Spoke of what was happening during my week or that morning. Jesus (God) was using the pastor as a vessel to reach me. Before all this I was never a church person. I hated going to church. The people are phony, back stabbers, hypocrites and so on. I go to church to worship God not people. I don't care what people think of me. I am a sinner. I will always be a sinner until I die and when Jesus takes me up to his Kingdom. I will be there for eternity. Hope to see you there too.

 

You know, something similar happened to me.  Central Washington, night before Thanksgiving, raining down in Wenatchee.  But as we came up the hill out of the Columbia River Gorge, it suddenly switched to ice.  There was a car in the ditch in front of us, a car attempting to get back on the highway between the car in the ditch and us.  The car behind us starts to spin - I see headlights, taillights, headlights in the rear view mirror.  The Volkswagen Beetle in the left lane spins out in front of us behind a semi-tractor trailer.  The car behind the Volkswagen is fishtailing.  We make it up the hill just fine.  And I thank my husband who is one hell of a good driver.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

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Adam knew eating the fruit was wrong he didn't repent.

Genesis 2:15-17 (New International Version)

 

 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

God gave Adam choices rather than physically preventing him from eating, God gave Adam choices, and God still give us choices, and we to often choose wrongly. These wrong choices may cause us pain, but they can help us learn and grow and make better choices in the future. Living with consequences of our choices teaching us to think and choose more carefully.

Why would God place a tree in the garden and forbid Adam to eat from it?  God wanted Adam to obey, but God gave Adam the freedom to choose. Without choice, Adam would have been like a prisoner, and his obedience would have been hollow. The two trees provided an exercise in choice, with rewards for choosing to obey and sad consequences for choosing to disobey. When you are faced with the choice, always choose to obey God.

I think if Adam and Eve both have repented (meaning they were sorry) and meant it from their hearts instead of putting blame on someone else we would not have evil in our lives now. God would have forgave them.  My own personal thought. Want to learn more about Jesus get a bible that you will understand. It helps when it is a study bible. They have more information then a Regular Bible. I really like the NIV Study Bible I have it is a lot easier to understand than King James version... B.I.B.L.E. stands for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.  

 


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Where's Billy Bob?

thayward65 wrote:

Genesis 2:15-17 (New International Version)

 

 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

 

 

               Genesis 2: 15-17 makes it clear that; 1]  the all-powerfull omnipitent god couldn't keep an eye on JUST 2 people,  and also 2] God's a liar, Adam & Eve did not die.

 

God gave Adam choices rather than physically preventing him from eating, God gave Adam choices, and God still give us choices, and we to often choose wrongly. These wrong choices may cause us pain, but they can help us learn and grow and make better choices in the future. Living with consequences of our choices teaching us to think and choose more carefully.                     I choose not to involve religion and imaginary friends in my life,  so far so good.   

Why would God place a tree in the garden and forbid Adam to eat from it?  God wanted Adam to obey, but God gave Adam the freedom to choose. Without choice, Adam would have been like a prisoner, and his obedience would have been hollow. The two trees provided an exercise in choice, with rewards for choosing to obey and sad consequences for choosing to disobey. When you are faced with the choice, always choose to obey God.

 

 

                  Why would a grown man your age still think genesis is a REAL story. Please stay in church, the rest of us will be safer with you in church rather then driving on a snowy road.

 

 

I think if Adam and Eve both have repented (meaning they were sorry) and meant it from their hearts instead of putting blame on someone else we would not have evil in our lives now. God would have forgave them.  My own personal thought. Want to learn more about Jesus get a bible that you will understand. It helps when it is a study bible. They have more information then a Regular Bible. I really like the NIV Study Bible I have it is a lot easier to understand than King James version... B.I.B.L.E. stands for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. 

 

 

                  I think it is cute when Adam & Eve try to blame some one else;  Who else was there?  The serpant is NOT a WHO. It makes god out to be rather stupid if he has to ask the only two people on earth, "who did this".   btw  the jesus charactor was no more real then Adam or Eve, the charactor is a mish mash of several sources, both real and imaginary.   Also btw  the word bible comes from the ancient Greek word for Book. 

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


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If a baby dies is it sent to

If a baby dies is it sent to hell as it obviously lacks the mental capacity to accept a higher being and pray to it? For that matter, if a person is mentally retarded or severely autistic they might not even be able to be reached, or be able to understand the idea of a dvine being let alone prayer and worship. Are these people given a pass or are they pretty much doomed to hell because God kicked them in the teeth at birth? Here's an interesting one, I am a virtuous bible believing individual, in an accident I end up with amnesia and my new personality (for lack of a better term) is a non-believer or believes in something different. Am I sent to hell, even if I had no control over the loss of my own memory and God apparently didn't send anyone to help. What about a person in the reverse case, they get amnesia and become a bible believing Christian, are they still held under sins that they don't (and can't) remember committing? 

On the note of the Garden of Eden, the snake was apparently acting against God at that point, so apparently evil existed before the fall and before Adam ate the fruit. I also say this, no one asks to be born, if God really loves us so much why have we gone so long without a new message? The people of Israel in relatively primitive times seemed to hear from God pretty consistently, we on the other hand seem to be kind of spinning our wheels here.


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Quote:If a baby dies is it

Quote:

If a baby dies is it sent to hell as it obviously lacks the mental capacity to accept a higher being and pray to it?

no baby or child goes to Hell- read story of Bathsheba's child with David........."he will not come to me but I will go to him"  

 

Quote:
For that matter, if a person is mentally retarded or severely autistic they might not even be able to be reached, or be able to understand the idea of a dvine being let alone prayer and worship. Are these people given a pass or are they pretty much doomed to hell because God kicked them in the teeth at birth? Here's an interesting one, I am a virtuous bible believing individual, in an accident I end up with amnesia and my new personality (for lack of a better term) is a non-believer or believes in something different. Am I sent to hell, even if I had no control over the loss of my own memory and God apparently didn't send anyone to help. What about a person in the reverse case, they get amnesia and become a bible believing Christian, are they still held under sins that they don't (and can't) remember committing? 

there is a day set upon which God will judge .

 

Quote:
On the note of the Garden of Eden, the snake was apparently acting against God at that point, so apparently evil existed before the fall and before Adam ate the fruit. I also say this, no one asks to be born, if God really loves us so much why have we gone so long without a new message? The people of Israel in relatively primitive times seemed to hear from God pretty consistently, we on the other hand seem to be kind of spinning our wheels here.

  but you haven't responded to the one he's given you yet.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:no baby or

freeminer wrote:
no baby or child goes to Hell- read story of Bathsheba's child with David........."he will not come to me but I will go to him"  

Do they all go to heaven?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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What a shame this thread is in the kill

 

them with kindness area.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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butterbattle wrote:freeminer

butterbattle wrote:

freeminer wrote:
no baby or child goes to Hell- read story of Bathsheba's child with David........."he will not come to me but I will go to him"  

Do they all go to heaven?

 

yes, the reason being, they are incapable of freewill decisions.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

them with kindness area.

 

be my guest!


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Yes, Freeminer.

freeminer wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 them with kindness area.

be my guest!

 

As with every christian, our OP starts with the titanic adhom of the garden of eden and original sin and then moves on to christianity's central fallacy from force. Do as you're told or be burned. In this bloke's case we are obligated to say nothing, while the threat is yet again unveiled. This board in particular and this entire forum doesn't allow threats and it activates my swear-o-meter when I have to pretend christians are exempt from the ruling. You'd think a mighty god could come up with better and more sensible proof of his existence and a more even handed manner of dealing with his creation but no. The garden of eden is the best he can do. Believe it or else. It's simply brilliant stuff.

 

Ed: Civility

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

freeminer wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 them with kindness area.

be my guest!

 

Quote:
As with every christian, our OP starts with the titanic adhom of the garden of eden and original sin and then moves on to christianity's central fallacy from force. Do as you're told or be burned.

but you are not "forced" into anything........you are currently exercising your free- will choice. 

Quote:
In this bloke's case we are obligated to say nothing, while the threat is yet again unveiled. This board in particular and this entire forum doesn't allow threats and it activates my swear-o-meter when I have to pretend christians are exempt from the ruling.

atheists see threats everywhere......they lost all sense of real humour when they lost God.......chill out, you were given an invitation to suspend the thread rules.......I assumed it's what you were asking for. 

Quote:
You'd think a mighty god could come up with better and more sensible proof of his existence and a more even handed manner of dealing with his creation but no. The garden of eden is the best he can do. Believe it or else. It's simply brilliant stuff.

 

please explain why God is under an obligation to uphold anyone's sinful life? Having created everything, does he own it or not?

 

Ed: Civility

 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Well Freeminer

 

It's like this. Your beloved god wants to kill us for not believing in him and you are obviously perfectly fine with that. As for being able to suspend morality just because he is god and made us - yeah that makes perfect sense to me. In any case, let's talk about it another time.

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Quote: It's like this. Your

Quote:

 

It's like this. Your beloved god wants to kill us for not believing in him and you are obviously perfectly fine with that.

".........it is not God's will that any should perish..............." 

Quote:
As for being able to suspend morality just because he is god and made us - yeah that makes perfect sense to me. In any case, let's talk about it another time.

 

who said that?...........not me!

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Susan wrote:Crossover

Susan wrote:
Crossover wrote:

 

First, God created man to glorify Him. Why did he create us with the forknowlege that we would sin (not only that, but with the forknowlege of knowing whom he would choose to save!)? My personal belief is that God did that because that glorifies Him more. Christians dont (or shouldnt) say that God is merciful for creating us...but rather he is merciful for offering us a way of salvation. I can only say that God sees that He can get more glory out of the way He did it than any other way.

Am I understanding this correctly?

You believe the god created man just so he would have someone to glorify and worship him?

That sounds pretty arrogant and self-centered to me.

The only analogy I can think of is someone having children for the sole purpose of keeping the children focused only on obeying and worshipping the parents. 

That would be a good recipe for kids that need therapy for years. 

There is even more to it.  It is like to intensionally use drugs and alcohol to make sure that your children will have all sorts of birth defects for the reason that they will be surely less perfect and capable than you are. 

 


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Crossover wrote:And yet that

Crossover wrote:

And yet that is life. Is it fair that a small time farmer works endless hours in heat, snow, rain, cold, etc. but the son of a rich guy gets some kushy job where he does no work but makes triple what the farmer makes? Nope. Is that life? Yep.

Hi,

You should be kidding about the lifestyle and income of farmers families. It's about $76K, which is way above average. Also, a relatively small part of it will come from farming, which is often SEASONAL.  

100%


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freeminer wrote:Quote: It's

freeminer wrote:

Quote:

 

It's like this. Your beloved god wants to kill us for not believing in him and you are obviously perfectly fine with that.

".........it is not God's will that any should perish..............." 

 

Everything is God's will.  You either accept Him or go to hell.  Do YOU have a problem with this?


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thayward65 wrote:I think if

thayward65 wrote:

I think if Adam and Eve both have repented (meaning they were sorry) and meant it from their hearts instead of putting blame on someone else we would not have evil in our lives now. God would have forgave them.  My own personal thought. Want to learn more about Jesus get a bible that you will understand. It helps when it is a study bible. They have more information then a Regular Bible. I really like the NIV Study Bible I have it is a lot easier to understand than King James version... B.I.B.L.E. stands for Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.  

Congratulations! Your personal thought would be very unfortunate for religion in general.  Imagine no evil.  Seriously.  Why do you need church then? Religion?  Religionmen will make up an evil just to keep people in horror and faith.  You cannot have religion without: 1) evil and 2) death. 

Have you read "Death with Interruptions".   Try it. 

Also, I see you like to read. So, I'm sure you have read Dawkins' books.  What do you think of them?

My favorite gospel is "The Gospel according to Jesus Christ".  It's written very clear and accessible.  I also like the idea of Douglas Adams that the Earth will be exterminated to give a way to a transgalactic highway. 

 

Also, when my car turned several times around on icy road, I said "Oh, F&^K!"  and I have safely avoided all possible collisions.  

Another year, I was driving on ice with my family and I had to stop ASAP because of the car that accidentally stopped in front of me.  My car was sliding on the ice.  I did not say "Oh, F&^K" because I had kids in the car.  My car hit the car in front of me.   

So, the moral of this story is that F&^K is great and almighty!

There are tons of books that help to study F&^K.  You should try F&^K for yourself.  As proven by all human's history F&^K is the only way to eternity. Even Christian Bible says so:  "F&^K and multiply!" as it is in a new better interpretation of the Bible which is made for the greatest F&^Kers.  Or: "And Adam F&^Ked Eve, and so begun the humankind."  

 

I think there in your spinning car, when you think that you said Lord you actually addressed the great F&^K and the F&^K came and saved you.  Hallelujah! 

 


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freeminer wrote:yes, the

freeminer wrote:
yes, the reason being, they are incapable of freewill decisions.

Have you ever heard of Andrea Yates?

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/3.html

She killed her own children so that they would avoid the risk of falling into sin and go to heaven. What do you think about that?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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100percentAtheist

100percentAtheist wrote:

Crossover wrote:

And yet that is life. Is it fair that a small time farmer works endless hours in heat, snow, rain, cold, etc. but the son of a rich guy gets some kushy job where he does no work but makes triple what the farmer makes? Nope. Is that life? Yep.

Hi,

You should be kidding about the lifestyle and income of farmers families. It's about $76K, which is way above average. Also, a relatively small part of it will come from farming, which is often SEASONAL.  

100%

 

Think about that though 90% of farmers income comes from off the farm. Also you'll notice in that study that the, I believe it says, top 15% skew the average. If you can find the median (which I can't) I'd like to know it. Either way, that income survey is very...uninformed for lack of a better word. Farmers get subsidies, they spend them on costs. If you hire an illegal you can't report the cost of their employment to the government and you cant not tell the government where their subsidy money went. So it goes as income. I grew up in a small southern farm town and have worked on a few farms in my life. It's not quite as easy as "$80k a year and the good life". In fact every farmer I know, including members of my family, live in small houses, have second jobs, and barely pay bills. Agriculture companies and big time farmers can make great money, but they aren't the norm. But that's way off the topic.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Hi Crossover

 

Just on your original post, how do you feel about Jesus allegedly walking through doors after rising from the dead? This sounds flippant but isn't meant to be. I always thought a ghost story in the NT was unusual and wondered if he was visible the whole way through. What do you think? Does the door thing constitute another miracle from your perspective or was jesus more ethereal/spiritual after his re-birth?

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Since you're back...

Figured I'd get in on this thread resurrection.

Crossover wrote:

zarathustra wrote:

Terse reply. Any desire to elaborate?

If the point in time which jesus arrived was arbitrary, wouldn't it make more sense for him to arrive in a period such as our own where there are more rigorous means for establishing truth? What sense was there in jesus coming in a time when most jews didn't believe in a messianic prophecy, which essentially guaranteed he would be denied?

Well its basic because that it. I can't answer the later questions because I don't knows. Who knows why God chooses to do the things He does? There no discussion in scipture about it.

Quote:

"Condensing" doesn't mean "take one out". Why couldn't the "saving", the "showing" and the "judgement" all occur on one trip?

I don't know.

Quote:

I bring this up because I find the blueprint somewhat confusing: With jesus showing up at some arbitrary point in time, we have have him saving those people who lived before him (and who therefore had no opportunity to accept or deny him), as well as those who live after him (who have not yet been born, and have not yet committed the sins that jesus is saving them from). Are those who lived before and after jesus held to different standards of judgement?

Thats something hotly debated and I have done only limited study on it. My beliefs is there are 3 classes of people who lived before Him

1. People like Isaiah or Moses, whom God garaunteed eternal life.

2. People who followed God's laws as best they could. The people of Israel mostly. These are people who lived and relied on the law to save them. However after Jesus' coming, only grace saves.

3. People who didn't believe in God before Him.

 

Now since I haven't done much study on it and Idon't see scripture to back up any position I may take, I will just give you the two major points, using 1, 2, and 3 to refer to the groups of people I just metioned.

Theory #1:

That people in groups 1 and 2 are still saved. Since they followed the covanent as it was at that time, they are only judged on the law as of their time. People in group 3 are still lost.

Theory #2:

People in group 1 are eternaly saved. People in group 2 are judged based on God's froreknowlege of who would accept Him or not. Basically Jesus said "ok, if you were to live in this year you would accept me, and you wouldn't." People in group 3 are judged based on the same things as 2. 

I tend to lean towards the first one, but I won't make a full statement of my belief until I know more on this topic.

In your response to me and to others, you seem to have a lot of "I don't knows".  Saying "I don't know" is of course better than claiming certainty without evidence, but I have to wonder how you reasoned your way into accepting these beliefs in the first place, without considering basic problems such as these, let alone resolving them.

And you might have missed this last time, so if you'd care to field it now:  Do we have free will in heaven?

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Anyone notice that jeffrick

Anyone notice that jeffrick has 1337 posts?

 

I don't know if anyone has asked this before but here's a question: Why do so many Christians get upset at atheists just for being atheists? It's not like we don't believe in your god because we're trying to be the devil's advocate. I, personally deny all noumena, whether it be god, or the absurdities of string theory.

Mild PDD-NOS and severe undifferentiated schizophrenia.
It's people like me that should put the oh so loving Christian god to shame, but don't... These people are crazier than I am.


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Crossover wrote:Got any?

Crossover wrote:

Got any? When I say questions I mean doctrinal questions. Like "why does God allow epole to starve" or "explain you wacky view of three Gods in one"....not science stuff and not debate stuff. This is for people who would actually like to learn more about the people they have come to disagree with. I don't want this to be a debate...just Q & A. Later I will post a questions for athiest topic, where I will ask you questions and you will answer them for me...no debates, just Q & A.

 

So, any questions???????

 

Since this topic got its second life, I have a question. 

Do you remember the first time you learned (heard) about God/Christ/Allah/FSM/etc.?  Who told you that you will not die after your physical death? I would like all theists AND ATHEIST to answer this question if possible. 

My mother told me at age ~9-11 that my grandgrandma believes in god.  When I visited my grandgrandma, I asked her why does she believe if it is so clear that there is no god.  I do not remember clearly what she said, but as far as I understood it at that time that it is just an old time tradition that many people believed in god.  About the same age I was .... baptized in Russian orthodox church  .  Believe me or not, I had no clue it does anything with god/jesus/etc.  I think my mother believing in all mystic stuff though that baptizing me will help heal me from everything (I think flu was about #1 on that list). 

So how about you?

thanks,

100%


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Koopa wrote:I don't know if

Koopa wrote:

I don't know if anyone has asked this before but here's a question: Why do so many Christians get upset at atheists just for being atheists? It's not like we don't believe in your god because we're trying to be the devil's advocate. I, personally deny all noumena, whether it be god, or the absurdities of string theory.

Here is why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHnXrU5JzU

Personally, I think that they are really scared and uncomfortable about the very existence of a single atheist.  Especially at schools.  Don't talk to kids about god until 21 and the religion will fall apart as a playcard house in one generation.