Questions for a Christian?

Crossover
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Questions for a Christian?

Got any? When I say questions I mean doctrinal questions. Like "why does God allow epole to starve" or "explain you wacky view of three Gods in one"....not science stuff and not debate stuff. This is for people who would actually like to learn more about the people they have come to disagree with. I don't want this to be a debate...just Q & A. Later I will post a questions for athiest topic, where I will ask you questions and you will answer them for me...no debates, just Q & A.

 

So, any questions???????

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Just on your original post, how do you feel about Jesus allegedly walking through doors after rising from the dead? This sounds flippant but isn't meant to be. I always thought a ghost story in the NT was unusual and wondered if he was visible the whole way through. What do you think? Does the door thing constitute another miracle from your perspective or was Jesus more ethereal/spiritual after his re-birth?

 

That's a good question. It has always been my understanding that he was more a spirit. I've never questioned it before though. I can see a problem with him being spiritual because that wouldn't show complete conquest of death. So that would mean logically if the Resurrection was all about showing conquest of death, he would've been all man and it would be more of a miracle.

 

In short, I'm not sure. I've never given it any thought before

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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zarathustra wrote:

 

In your response to me and to others, you seem to have a lot of "I don't knows".  Saying "I don't know" is of course better than claiming certainty without evidence, but I have to wonder how you reasoned your way into accepting these beliefs in the first place, without considering basic problems such as these, let alone resolving them.

And you might have missed this last time, so if you'd care to field it now:  Do we have free will in heaven?

Yea, I missed it last time. But first I will say, if you want to ask a question again that I said "I don't know" to, maybe I will know now. It has been two years. But, maybe not.

 

Do we have free will in heaven? That's sort of a trick. The Bible doesn't address it directly, since (arguably) it doesn't adress whether we have free will on earth! Based on what it says about heaven I can say this: we will have free will, however we will not want to do certain things. We will have free will to sin, but won't. If you think of going to an all white party (I have the most random metaphors, I need to get better at this)...you can't get in unless you're wearing nothing but white. Once you're there you are technically free to wear black but you can't since there is no black anywhere. Once you enter heaven, you are sinless and you have the ability to choose to sin, but since your nature changes you do not have the will to sin. Make sense?

This of course, is jsut pure assumption since the Bible doesn't DIRECTLY address it. Really, the bible doesn't talk about heaven a whole lot, for as much as we focus on it.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


Crossover
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Koopa wrote:

 

I don't know if anyone has asked this before but here's a question: Why do so many Christians get upset at atheists just for being atheists? It's not like we don't believe in your god because we're trying to be the devil's advocate. I, personally deny all noumena, whether it be god, or the absurdities of string theory.

Because they're idiots. Honestly, that's the best explanation I can think of. It directly contradicts the Bible to just yell and rant at people about it. It bothers the crap out of me.

 

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


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100percentAtheist wrote:

 

Since this topic got its second life, I have a question. 

Do you remember the first time you learned (heard) about God/Christ/Allah/FSM/etc.?  Who told you that you will not die after your physical death? I would like all theists AND ATHEIST to answer this question if possible. 

My mother told me at age ~9-11 that my grandgrandma believes in god.  When I visited my grandgrandma, I asked her why does she believe if it is so clear that there is no god.  I do not remember clearly what she said, but as far as I understood it at that time that it is just an old time tradition that many people believed in god.  About the same age I was .... baptized in Russian orthodox church  .  Believe me or not, I had no clue it does anything with god/jesus/etc.  I think my mother believing in all mystic stuff though that baptizing me will help heal me from everything (I think flu was about #1 on that list). 

So how about you?

thanks,

100%

I couldn't tell you really. I grew up in the church. Around age 14, I basically scrapped everything I had been taught. I decided that I didnt want to believe something just because I had been taught it. So I looked at all sides (atheism, Islam, Judaism) and went with Christianity. From there I studied doctrines, and so forth until I decided what I believed in Christianity.

 

While I consciously didn't just choose Christianity because it's what I grew up with, I am aware the argument can be made that I subconsciously chose it simply because it was what I grew up hearing. But hey, the fact that I actually examined other paths and studied Christian doctrines till I decided on everything I believe, puts me ahead of a lot of people...whether they be Christian, atheist, Muslim, whatever.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


Crossover
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Ill make the most of this double post! Chris Johnson is getting 2500 yards this season. I got the #1 pick in my fantasy league and my boy CJ2K is about to run all over your favorite team!.

And the Boise State Broncos are going undefeated again. And the BCS better give them a chance!

I figure I double posted and I gotta say something to explain. Might as well have some fun with it!

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


zarathustra
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Crossover wrote:Yea, I

Crossover wrote:
Yea, I missed it last time. But first I will say, if you want to ask a question again that I said "I don't know" to, maybe I will know now. It has been two years. But, maybe not.

Well those questions were quoted in my last post if you want a full accounting.  But briefly:  You acknowledged there was nothing particularly significant about the point in history god/jesus chose to come down and tarry on earth.  If the time for his incarnation/death/resurrection was arbitrary, why not come rather in modern times where his supernatural claims could be objectively verified?  In conjunction with this was the salvation status of those people who lived before jesus, those contemporary, and those who born after him (assuming here for the sake of argument that he actually did exist).  Your response hitherto was "Who knows why God chooses to do the things He does? There no discussion in scipture about it."

 

Crossover wrote:

Do we have free will in heaven? That's sort of a trick. The Bible doesn't address it directly, since (arguably) it doesn't adress whether we have free will on earth! Based on what it says about heaven I can say this: we will have free will, however we will not want to do certain things. We will have free will to sin, but won't. If you think of going to an all white party (I have the most random metaphors, I need to get better at this)...you can't get in unless you're wearing nothing but white. Once you're there you are technically free to wear black but you can't since there is no black anywhere. Once you enter heaven, you are sinless and you have the ability to choose to sin, but since your nature changes you do not have the will to sin. Make sense?

This of course, is jsut pure assumption since the Bible doesn't DIRECTLY address it. Really, the bible doesn't talk about heaven a whole lot, for as much as we focus on it.

If it is possible for one to have the free will to sin, yet remain sinless, why did god simply not create us with that nature?  That way noone would ever have sinned, whereby noone would have to be punished with hell.  Why not simply start us all of in heaven, with that nature to which you say the heavenbound get changed?

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Quote:If it is possible for

Quote:
If it is possible for one to have the free will to sin, yet remain sinless, why did god simply not create us with that nature?  That way noone would ever have sinned, whereby noone would have to be punished with hell.  Why not simply start us all of in heaven, with that nature to which you say the heavenbound get changed?

 

because, if you think about it, God would have always been open to the charge that he imposed his own nature on us and that 'freewill' was simply hypothetical, if not an illusion.  The principle is akin to, "justice must not only be done but seen to be done"   .........and yes therewill be freewill in Heaven. Without freewill, love cannot exist. Sorry for butting in Crossover........I just saw you hadn't been able to be around for a while.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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freeminer wrote:Quote:If it

freeminer wrote:

Quote:
If it is possible for one to have the free will to sin, yet remain sinless, why did god simply not create us with that nature?  That way noone would ever have sinned, whereby noone would have to be punished with hell.  Why not simply start us all of in heaven, with that nature to which you say the heavenbound get changed?

 

because, if you think about it, God would have always been open to the charge that he imposed his own nature on us and that 'freewill' was simply hypothetical, if not an illusion.  The principle is akin to, "justice must not only be done but seen to be done"   .........and yes therewill be freewill in Heaven. Without freewill, love cannot exist. Sorry for butting in Crossover........I just saw you hadn't been able to be around for a while.

Interesting concept - are you saying that those in heaven would be able to do something to displease God?

Or is it that there is only one will that will be followed (God's) but it is as free as the breeze?

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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Way hasn't anybody walked on water

If everyone walked on water, raised people from the dead, healed people, turned water into wine, transfigure, etc. Then we could all claim that we were the Son of God and divine or Apostles. The whole point of miracles where to prove that Jesus was the Son of God and that the Apostles were his representative (since some of them did miracles also) These things have been recorded in the Bible and He closed the cannon and will not do them again. I am only speaking from one "theist" point of view because "theists" don't have a unified belief system. As I wrote in another forum, there are somewhere in the range of 30,000 Christian denominations. If we did have a unified belief system there wouldn't be 30,000 Christian denominations. I can only speak from a Reformed Theology view (Calvinist). Oh yes.. Calvinist. Hated by atheist and Christian alike


zarathustra
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freeminer wrote:Quote:If it

freeminer wrote:
Quote:
If it is possible for one to have the free will to sin, yet remain sinless, why did god simply not create us with that nature? That way noone would ever have sinned, whereby noone would have to be punished with hell. Why not simply start us all of in heaven, with that nature to which you say the heavenbound get changed?
  because, if you think about it, God would have always been open to the charge that he imposed his own nature on us and that 'freewill' was simply hypothetical, if not an illusion.

Open to a charge from whom?  Is there some higher authority god answers to?   Presumably, imposing his own nature on us would render us sinless, which must be more desirable than us being sinful as a result of him imposing free will on us.

freeminer wrote:
........and yes therewill be freewill in Heaven. Without freewill, love cannot exist.

jcgadfly anticipated my follow-up question:  If those in heaven have free will, are they able to sin?  

 

michael607 wrote:
If everyone walked on water, raised people from the dead, healed people, turned water into wine, transfigure, etc. Then we could all claim that we were the Son of God and divine or Apostles.

And that's a bad thing?

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Jean Chauvin
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Hi OP

Hi OP,

I have a question. Why are so many Christians today are really pathetic wimps? Why are protestants really for Roman Catholicism? Why are Christians without balls and boldness today?

Christians in this generation disgust me. I still would care for them if they were starving verses an atheist (if they were both at my door), but generally speaking, most Christians are fake and not real.

Just give me a Christians that is real. Admits his mistakes, and is normal. Chrisitans are more stupid today then ever in church history. Atheists know more about the bible then most Chrisitans.

When I try to help the Chrisitans, they spit at logic. Why do Chrisitans focus on the heart and attack the mind? And if you use your mind, they say you're not spiritual.

Hopefully you're not a pathetic loser like many Christians in this generation (verses the 19th century, where most were bold and educated).

No balls, only walls is the christian church of today. A fake place for hypocrites. I praise God that He has shown me logic and reason within His Being.

You don't have to answer my question.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

 

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Hi Crossover, I have

Hi Crossover, I have question:

  What exactly do you find so appealing about the god of the bible assuming the depictions of his personality are accurate?  I can see some appealing attributes in the Jesus character, but this Yahweh guy as a hole is a total fail as a wise morally advanced entity.  I would expect much more from such a being than to say mess around with Job and his entire life on a dare with a lesser being, or throw tantrums and kill children or do just plain strange things like turn an innocent women into a salt statue for turning around.  The god as depicted in the bible is a complete fail for me, it is very difficult for me to understand how anyone can see him as a win.  The character in the book is needy, obsessive, petty, narcissistic, jealous, manic depressive, has multiple contradicting personalities, and so many more unappealing things, how can you possibly equate his general behaviour in the book with an all wise, morally advanced being, it just doesn't add up.  What kind of morally advanced being would want to be worshiped, it is ridiculous to me.

 Just the imagery and general feeling I get from Christianity as a hole is dark and unappealing, all the bloody images, hellfire, Yahweh’s complete lack of any sense of humour, I just don't see what people see in it at all.  If there is a god I really hope he's not the boring, super intense, manic-depressive all love one minute all wrath the next god you represent.  I hope he's a "ask me a good question and I'll answer honestly with a smile, critical thinking and questions are welcomed" kind of god.

 So what exactly do you see in your particular deity of choice??? Because I can't see much!


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My 2 cents

Yeah, I know it's an old thread but I may as well join the fray.. take note it's pretty much morning where I'm from and I have class the next day so it may not be that coherent

But I'm a Christian myself, but I have no full conviction that what I believe is right in an objective reality. Since I stand by previous philosophers when they argue that there can be no such thing. Man experiences everything through the senses, which are not  necessarily the same for everyone and similarly their interpretations and understanding is different as well. So in a way, though there is a reality you live in, you craft and mould it the way your mind and subconscious decide to interpret it. Which of course,   brings us to the reason why I believe what I believe and you believe yours. It's how we want to see things. I don't believe I'm 100% right but I live my life the way I believe I should, I'm not that orthodox as a Christian in the sense that I engage in traditions as much, especially those I find nonsensical(for me). Similarly, I don't let my beliefs and faith blind me either. I realize I might be wrong, and science says a fair amount of it is wrong. I am not 100% sold on the Bible being 100% true either. Similar to how every lie has a grain of truth, I believe that most of what is written is true, but misinterpreted(though yeah, it is very cryptic in nature) and also possibly corrupted by man in the translation and possibly even writing. Since I know there are rejected gospels and all that, so though I believe the Bible, I don't take it all in too literally.

   Also... I'm open to criticism, corrections and the like.

   Like I said, I choose what I believe and I don't want to change anyone. I don't let my beliefs cloud my judgment nor do I pass judgment on others since they can all be equally correct. All I want is possibly to show others that there are also Christians like me, I live life the way my own moral code wills me(influenced by the Bible, other religious texts, philosophical works[I enjoy reading about Philosophy as well as the history of it, from Plato to Hume to Fayerabend and Hegel) and the thing is, as cliche as it sounds, I only know that I know nothing of this objective reality we're living in, though I can say I know something about the one I've made for myself with my faith. Also, as for faith... one thing about me, and the others like me. God isn't really just God.. for me, he's more of a friend, in fact.. I don't really see myself as a full Christian though I do believe in Jesus. I am in it for the relationship, and they can leave their religion at the door. Even Christ has objected at religions since they eventually inspire idolatry, bigotry.. and all those problems you associate with the Middle East. He is someone I talk to in prayer like a friend. Like an imaginary friend for you perhaps. Though he may not exist, he comforts me, gives me a feeling of peace at times, and I can also say he's granted my prayers a number of times. I don't exactly want to brag, but I have many awards, from regional to national level competitions in math, science and such. And a lot of them, are God's gifts to me. In a math contest, interschool, national one in high school, we were down by 1 person in the team and my team8 was actually just a sub. Our competitors had a strong lineup and though we botched the easy round and was rock bottom, we reached the 3rd in the end since we caught up in the difficult round and actually made many correct answers they got wrong. Many others like that where I didn't feel like I should've won, where I was also alone(individual, lacking men, and that stuff) and I still won either from luck or I don't know what. And in one contest, we completely misunderstood the coverage so we didn't know a thing, but somehow all the questions somehow fell near fully within the range of my stock knowledge and some I didn't even know I knew, so even without any real preparation, somehow we still placed 3rd in the contest. It's my personal experience so I know it's not strong for a debate but like I said, not debating, only showing my side. Also, at one point in my life, I was going through a lot of problems both spiritually and in the real world, and funny enough, the events that happened after were.. strange, I can't really explain it other than the fact that it was a day of nonstop coincidences wherein half were sort of inside jokes between me and God... much like those you would have with a close friend and they helped me get through my problems and solved a few as well(as in not some feelgood feeling, really solved them). And really, that's my experience about it. I'm sorry but it really is difficult to explain something like this especially since if you knew me, I am probably the most unlucky person on the face of this earth(and I doubt atheists really believe in luck anyway). Sorry if it might come off as arrogant, but I can't really state personal salvation or maybe how my friends turned their lives around when I prayed for them or all that stuff, but I'm trying for something concrete(though yeah, I know, still not really much to go on).

   Also, I'm not saying it's God, just that it's more unlikely that it's pure coincidence given the frequency of the occurences and how they all seem to have some trick/joke or addendum at the end that only God(or my close friends) would even understand. I might be making something out of nothing but... that's my take on things.

   And also, as for the "atheists, nonbelievers burning in hell," well, that's the thing that kept hitting me since really.. it is a dark hole with bloody images and hellfire.. but I don't take the Bible for face value and I don't think it should be either. And also... most likely when you refer to those bleak images it's from passages like Romans 1:18 onwards. But.. well, it's followed by Romans 2:9-11.. and the rest of the context surrounding it.. It advises against what most Christians are doing especially the hate group ones.. and at the same times also says God will judge man by his life and actions, the evil will be glory and peace for the jew AND gentile, though you can also  tell there's a bit of bias since it says "first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" but like I said.. The Bible may or may not be tainted by man's(especially an indoctrined man) bigotry. I don't really believe he's as doom and gloom as others make him to be since for me, God is love. He is what enables us to see good, feel love and experience joy. He is impartial for me so he grants it to everyone and he gave us all free will for a reason.

  The concept of free will in itself is a topic of heavy debate, serving as both bane and boon, gift and curse and as much as I'd like to talk about it, I'll skip over to "why is there so much evil in the world." because here's the thing, It's our free will that allows us to perform good and evil and God does not want to rob us of it(even though logically, world w/o free will WILL actually be similar to UTOPIA). You could read The Grand Inquisitor by Fyodor Dostoevsky in his novel "The Brothers Karamazov" which also explores that(as well as many other topics that might interest you). I just think he wants us to live our life the way we want, and whether we want to share a more pronounced relationship with him or not is our decision. But at the same time, we experience him just by living our lives loving others and treating them kindly(sure you already know the passages that reference something similar and have heard of the good samaritan).
I think I'll end it now since if I don't, I'll probably get screwed in our exams tomorrow so... I think I'll end it here for now.. and questions and I will answer, any corrections and perhaps nudges towards any fallacies I may have committed are welcome. Though please try not to nitpick, since I see that it happened a lot in this thread, sorry in advance but I'm not here to argue so I hope you don't as well. I just stated my opinions on the matter and these are all a part of my own perception of the world around me. You wanted to know how we view this world so I'll show it, and I would also appreciate some answers from you regarding my own questions which I might ask another time. Thank you to those who've taken the time to read my drivel since I know it is a bit too long and I hope you've also learned a bit about us.
 Also, know anywhere to discuss philosophy? though I'm not that fully educated though I've read my fair share and I delve into it a lot during my day to day activities and I would just like other people to talk with, just asking for a nudge in the right direction if you've got any Sticking out tongue Since I really love philosophy, psychology and literature(would've taken them for my courses but it aint practical so I went with my other passion which is in computer systems engineering and all that stuff)

 


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BlackVulcan,I deleted the

BlackVulcan,

I deleted the earlier posts for you - it seemed pretty certain they were essentially duplicates.

===== (Mod hat off)

Hope you find some interesting discussions here.

I was once 'into' philosophy myself, now I have little respect for most of it, my favorite trio of philosophers being David Hume, Bertrand Russell, and Daniel Dennett. Plato was a dumbass.

I regard the 'free will' argument as an intellectual fraud to try and explain some of the moral problems, the 'Problem of Evil', that any assumption that God, if he exists, is a 'good' being, brings with it, as NoMoreCrazyPeople pointed out. Even if you think 'something' must have 'created' the Universe, there is no logical connection between such an event and conscious, all-powerful being, and no logical reason why such a being would be 'good', or even necessarily care about us. And no explanation as to how such a non-elemental entity came into existence itself.

The Bible is manifestly a collection of myths and old and mostly primitive ideas and myths, with a lot of projection and wishful thinking. IMHO.

<rant against religion OFF>

I see at the end there you say you have a passion for computer systems engineering and related stuff - I have done programming for most of my working life, both for myself and others, and am currently heavily into Web programming, both for normal browsing and for Web Apps on iPhone and iPad, and just getting back into native app programming on iOS4.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Welcome to the forum

Welcome to the forum BlackVulcan.

I see the free will defense of the problem of evil as not actually addressing the problem with anything more than a semantic trick, for free will itself is an empty concept. You cannot meaningfully describe the difference between something that has free will and something that doesn't, so one can attach the label as they please. And it is clear that peoples' thoughts and actions are influenced by previous events and their genes and that some people do more good than others; this does not constitute a violation of free will. So, there is no inconsistency between people having free will and being good.

Put another way, the assumption is that if people have free will, then even God is powerless to prevent an equal amount of good and evil. But, this is unsound, for people are predisposed to do things; their actions do not originate from a vacuum. Rather, if God created everything, then he set all the parameters that essentially determine what people going to do. So, the question is, why doesn't he just create people that "freely choose" to do good?

Also, it doesn't address "evils" that are outside of humans' control, such as diseases and natural disasters.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:Welcome

butterbattle wrote:

Welcome to the forum BlackVulcan.

I see the free will defense of the problem of evil as not actually addressing the problem with anything more than a semantic trick, for free will itself is an empty concept. You cannot meaningfully describe the difference between something that has free will and something that doesn't, so one can attach the label as they please. And it is clear that peoples' thoughts and actions are influenced by previous events and their genes and that some people do more good than others; this does not constitute a violation of free will. So, there is no inconsistency between people having free will and being good.

Put another way, the assumption is that if people have free will, then even God is powerless to prevent an equal amount of good and evil. But, this is unsound, for people are predisposed to do things; their actions do not originate from a vacuum. Rather, if God created everything, then he set all the parameters that essentially determine what people going to do. So, the question is, why doesn't he just create people that "freely choose" to do good?

Also, it doesn't address "evils" that are outside of humans' control, such as diseases and natural disasters.

That is a good angle butterbattle.  But also assuming that there was a thing as freewill which is what theists do then an omniscient god knowing the complete contents of a possible world necessarily determines those contents to happen if he actualizes that world and thus negates the free will. Only if good choose the best possible worlds of well being containing freewill threw them up in the air and left it to chance which one would big bang would there be free will. IN other words contrary to Einstein( ( My god does not roll dice) , "God would roll dice." Once the world actualized since he knows the contents of all possible worlds he would then know all the events and history of the world that actualized. But then he would no longer be directly creator having left it up to 'Chance'. Now I think Chance as in the movie Being There is a good candidate for GOD given my proposal.


 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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I'm going to go another

I'm going to go another direction and try to explain why this "problem of evil" "freewill" thing drives me nuts.  When I bring up my observations leading me to not believing in an "all good" god, the theists always spout the catchphrases "problem of evil," and "free will."  As if that at all encompasses what I'm referring to.  "Evil" I would consider to be an action taken by a conscious being that harms another, or something like that.  When I'm referring to my observations, I'm talking about ALL the things in this reality that don't add up to an "all good" god, not just effects of choices we've made.  What exactly does flesh eating bacteria have to do with "evil?"  What do asteroids, solar flares, tiny deadly spiders that like to nap in your slippers, earthquakes, the Ebola virus...have to do with "free will?"   This problem of evil catchphrase is so shallow, it describes nothing of the depth of actual problems we face in this universe that leave me with no room for belief in a loving creator who is powerful enough to change the way everything works, not to mind the "free will" "problem of evil" argument is bunk it its own regard to the choices we make and such things as I don't see any reason god couldn't have made it a law like gravity that we couldn't harm eachother, yet still have the "free will" to make choices within that reality.    

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:I'm

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

I'm going to go another direction and try to explain why this "problem of evil" "freewill" thing drives me nuts.  When I bring up my observations leading me to not believing in an "all good" god, the theists always spout the catchphrases "problem of evil," and "free will."  As if that at all encompasses what I'm referring to.  "Evil" I would consider to be an action taken by a conscious being that harms another, or something like that.  When I'm referring to my observations, I'm talking about ALL the things in this reality that don't add up to an "all good" god, not just effects of choices we've made.  What exactly does flesh eating bacteria have to do with "evil?"  What do asteroids, solar flares, tiny deadly spiders that like to nap in your slippers, earthquakes, the Ebola virus...have to do with "free will?"   This problem of evil catchphrase is so shallow, it describes nothing of the depth of actual problems we face in this universe that leave me with no room for belief in a loving creator who is powerful enough to change the way everything works, not to mind the "free will" "problem of evil" argument is bunk it its own regard to the choices we make and such things as I don't see any reason god couldn't have made it a law like gravity that we couldn't harm eachother, yet still have the "free will" to make choices within that reality.    

 

As Plantinga, the biggy Christian philosopher of our age points out evil is the best evidence against god.  However, the theologians have added in the theodicy argument the idea of natural evil.  This came about because they could not overcome arguments against god from the suffering of animals.  WHile you and I understand that the difference between bad and evil is that the latter is an act of conscious intent. It's bad that the shingle fell off the roof and hit my head. It was evil when Johnny knocked it off on purpose. I have posted several times a modal logic argument against god because of pain and suffering. I've not really had any good responses to it. What you do find are popping up are arguments like the soul-building defense.  There must be a given amount of hardship in the world to build character in humanity. There is a young Australian Philosopher, Nick Trakakis. He has an excellent defeater against these further defenses. Here is mine again. 

1) There is a possible world of only well-being (p).

2) A capable limitless good being (x) knowing of this world (p) would actualize (necessarily) it over  possible worlds with evil and suffering (q).

3)x necessarily would not allow  q

4)p--> not q

5) It is possible that god is x

6)q --> not p

7) Our world=q therefore not p

8)not p

9)not p--->not x

10)not x

11)god= not x

 

 Our world entails there is no capable limitless good being. If there is a god he is not that being. Also a  world of limitless well being would necessarily exist in all possible worlds. Since it does not do in ours then it is not necessary and therefore is a choice of many worlds.  A limitless good entity, god or such would choose the best to create. Since we do not live in that world no limitless good being/god actualized our world.

The argument at least places the question as to whether our attributes of god in conflict with themselves show that they are really in conflict with his actual properties and therefore invalid or simply relative compliments of worship that are not literal but poetic. 


 

 

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TGBaker wrote:WHile you and

TGBaker wrote:

WHile you and I understand that the difference between bad and evil is that the latter is an act of conscious intent. It's bad that the shingle fell off the roof and hit my head. It was evil when Johnny knocked it off on purpose. I have posted several times a modal logic argument against god because of pain and suffering. I've not really had any good responses to it. What you do find are popping up are arguments like the soul-building defense.  There must be a given amount of hardship in the world to build character in humanity.

The "problem of bad?"  haha

Theist:

"You see, because the shingle fell on your head you learned from it, you and the rest of us have a richer soul from the experience." 

=

Little girl is born with disease that destroyes her body from the inside out and she dies by the age of 4, because of this she has learned from it (wait a minute), and her (???) and everyone else has a richer soul from the experience (who her parents?).

I don't understand how theists make any sense of this to themselves, it it nonsense, trying to equate an all good all powerful god with our reality should cause a systems crash of the mind and force a reboot.

 

 

 


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My way of looking at this is

My way of looking at this is that, while the constraints of physical laws probably mean that a world suitable for life to emerge cannot be ideal for maximal comfort of any given life-form, let alone the range of life-forms making up a viable ecosystem. Maybe such a planet means that it will most likely to have the degree of crustal instability for mountains to form and grow to compensate for forces tending to erode them away, and to even have a degree of weather to bring necessary fresh water to enough of the surface to provide a range of life-friendly environments is going to have the inevitable possibility of occasionally more severe events such as earthquake, volcanic eruptions, and extreme weather events and floods to cause occasional mass loss of life. Such events often help to refresh the land by depositing fresh fertile soil for future forests and grasslands.

Volcanoes and other techtonic events are now thought as the most likely source of a localised regions with a very rich chemistry of many chemical compounds, many only formed under the temperatures and pressures of the Earth's mantle, so providing the maximum possibility for the emergence of self-replicating molecules, the staring points of life.

In addition, to be adequately driven by the effects of natural selection to evolve 'higher' forms means that there must be difficulties to be overcome, or at least a range of environments which will be more and less conducive to any life-form.

Then, because there will always be the possible niches of living by preying on, infecting, parasitising, etc other life forms, then predators, diseases and parasites will almost inevitably emerge.

So a degree of 'bad' events is probably inevitable.

My point being, all these circumstances are entirely predictable from the requirements for life itself to emerge and evolve.

Whereas if life existed by the directed will of a super-being, rather than natural abiogenesis and evolution, we could have a 'Garden of Eden' with just a few specific life-forms in an earthquake-, hurricane-, and tsunami-free environment, with the occasional touch of necessary maintenance to keep it that way. Which is more-or-less the way the Bible imagines the initial setup.

So god belief entails resolving the cognitive dissonance between these two pictures to maintain the fiction of a benevolent sky-daddy, in the face of what we now know ever more confidently is the massive evidence that the world we see is pretty much what we expect to see if everything came about by natural processes, no God required. Hence the invention of ideas like "original sin", which in turn implied the necessity of 'free will', and the idea of disobedience to authority being the worst kind of 'sin', and the 'greater' the authority figure the more deserving of extreme punishment

The irony here is that the natural version even explains, by extension into the area of psychology, why the supernatural stories emerged.

So the 'problem of evil' is simply an inevitable outcome of trying to 'explain' our existence in supernatural terms, and rather than concede that the whole God thing doesn't really work, we get the perversion of logic and reason that is theology trying to reconcile fiction and fact.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:My way of

BobSpence1 wrote:

My way of looking at this is that, while the constraints of physical laws probably mean that a world suitable for life to emerge cannot be ideal for maximal comfort of any given life-form, let alone the range of life-forms making up a viable ecosystem. Maybe such a planet means that it will most likely to have the degree of crustal instability for mountains to form and grow to compensate for forces tending to erode them away, and to even have a degree of weather to bring necessary fresh water to enough of the surface to provide a range of life-friendly environments is going to have the inevitable possibility of occasionally more severe events such as earthquake, volcanic eruptions, and extreme weather events and floods to cause occasional mass loss of life. Such events often help to refresh the land by depositing fresh fertile soil for future forests and grasslands.

Volcanoes and other techtonic events are now thought as the most likely source of a localised regions with a very rich chemistry of many chemical compounds, many only formed under the temperatures and pressures of the Earth's mantle, so providing the maximum possibility for the emergence of self-replicating molecules, the staring points of life.

In addition, to be adequately driven by the effects of natural selection to evolve 'higher' forms means that there must be difficulties to be overcome, or at least a range of environments which will be more and less conducive to any life-form.

Then, because there will always be the possible niches of living by preying on, infecting, parasitising, etc other life forms, then predators, diseases and parasites will almost inevitably emerge.

So a degree of 'bad' events is probably inevitable.

My point being, all these circumstances are entirely predictable from the requirements for life itself to emerge and evolve.

Whereas if life existed by the directed will of a super-being, rather than natural biogenesis and evolution, we could have a 'Garden of Eden' with just a few specific life-forms in an earthquake-, hurricane-, and tsunami-free environment, with the occasional touch of necessary maintenance to keep it that way. Which is more-or-less the way the Bible imagines the initial setup.

So god belief entails resolving the cognitive dissonance between these two pictures to maintain the fiction of a benevolent sky-daddy, in the face of what we now know even more confidently is the massive evidence that the world we see is pretty much what we expect to see if everything came about by natural processes, no God required. Hence the invention of ideas like "original sin", which in turn implied the necessity of 'free will', and the idea of disobedience to authority being the worst kind of 'sin', and the 'greater' the authority figure the more deserving of extreme punishment

The irony here is that the natural version even explains, by extension into the area of psychology, why the supernatural stories emerged.

So the 'problem of evil' is simply an inevitable outcome of trying to 'explain' our existence in supernatural terms, and rather than concede that the whole God thing doesn't really work, we get the perversion of logic and reason that is theology trying to reconcile fiction and fact.

That is a very good summary, Bob. Can I make a copy of it and quote it if need be? Oh by the way there is another great Australian "philosopher" ( I know I but they are a necessary evil). His Name is Nick Trakakis. And his major work is on the problem of evil:

The God Beyond Belief: In Defence of William Rowe’s Evidential Argument from Evil

. Springer, 2006.

 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

WHile you and I understand that the difference between bad and evil is that the latter is an act of conscious intent. It's bad that the shingle fell off the roof and hit my head. It was evil when Johnny knocked it off on purpose. I have posted several times a modal logic argument against god because of pain and suffering. I've not really had any good responses to it. What you do find are popping up are arguments like the soul-building defense.  There must be a given amount of hardship in the world to build character in humanity.

The "problem of bad?"  haha

Theist:

"You see, because the shingle fell on your head you learned from it, you and the rest of us have a richer soul from the experience." 

=

Little girl is born with disease that destroyes her body from the inside out and she dies by the age of 4, because of this she has learned from it (wait a minute), and her (???) and everyone else has a richer soul from the experience (who her parents?).

I don't understand how theists make any sense of this to themselves, it it nonsense, trying to equate an all good all powerful god with our reality should cause a systems crash of the mind and force a reboot.

 

 

 

It is simply faith before reason.  And what we let go is the really sick mentality that you point out about the 4 year old. I worked Child Abuse Investigations until I was hardly able to function.  ( 11 years) There is no justification of a God  from it. If there is a god I would rather hang out in hell than with someone who could watch what you describe and I have seen.


 

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa

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TGBaker wrote:That is a very

TGBaker wrote:

That is a very good summary, Bob. Can I make a copy of it and quote it if need be? Oh by the way there is another great Australian "philosopher" ( I know I but they are a necessary evil). His Name is Nick Trakakis. And his major work is on the problem of evil:

The God Beyond Belief: In Defence of William Rowe’s Evidential Argument from Evil

. Springer, 2006.

No problem, TG.

I must find time to look that guy up.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:It

TG wrote:

It is simply faith before reason.  And what we let go is the really sick mentality that you point out about the 4 year old. I worked Child Abuse Investigations until I was hardly able to function.  ( 11 years) There is no justification of a God  from it. If there is a god I would rather hang out in hell than with someone who could watch what you describe and I have seen.

I hear ya, I used this particular example because I happen to have had a sister who was born with a disease that ate her body from the inside out and she died by the age of four.  So when a theist says to me "problem of evil" I want to slap them in the face as if my sister dying of cancer was "evil."   I have had theists actually try to argue myself and my family might be "better" off or that we've learned something from the experience, and that she is in heaven, or that god has a purpose for her...  All the above make me want to ring their necks I find these comments truly disturbing and offensive.  First nothing I could gain from the experience could ever EVER be worth what she went through for those 3 years, 3 years of hospitals, pain, and being terrified the hole time.  I find it sick that she would have to go through that so that I would "learn" something and that is part of this gods plan.  Scik, Who am I?  I don't want to learn anything at the others expenses.  I would gladly in a second give myself up for her to live a healthy life and I have asked for just that way back when I believed their was someone listening to my prayers.  My sisters death destroyed our family, their was nothing good that came from it, just pain.  Still have no idea how theists claim god is all good and all powerful and attempt to logically wrap their heads around my story which is just 1 of millions without falling to the ground paralized from internal contradictions.  A few hundred kids died horrible deaths while I wrote this, who's soul is richer because of it?  

 

It is non-sense    

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:TG

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

TG wrote:

It is simply faith before reason.  And what we let go is the really sick mentality that you point out about the 4 year old. I worked Child Abuse Investigations until I was hardly able to function.  ( 11 years) There is no justification of a God  from it. If there is a god I would rather hang out in hell than with someone who could watch what you describe and I have seen.

I hear ya, I used this particular example because I happen to have had a sister who was born with a disease that ate her body from the inside out and she died by the age of four.  So when a theist says to me "problem of evil" I want to slap them in the face as if my sister dying of cancer was "evil."   I have had theists actually try to argue myself and my family might be "better" off or that we've learned something from the experience, and that she is in heaven, or that god has a purpose for her...  All the above make me want to ring their necks I find these comments truly disturbing and offensive.  First nothing I could gain from the experience could ever EVER be worth what she went through for those 3 years, 3 years of hospitals, pain, and being terrified the hole time.  I find it sick that she would have to go through that so that I would "learn" something and that is part of this gods plan.  Scik, Who am I?  I don't want to learn anything at the others expenses.  I would gladly in a second give myself up for her to live a healthy life and I have asked for just that way back when I believed their was someone listening to my prayers.  My sisters death destroyed our family, their was nothing good that came from it, just pain.  Still have no idea how theists claim god is all good and all powerful and attempt to logically wrap their heads around my story which is just 1 of millions without falling to the ground paralized from internal contradictions.  A few hundred kids died horrible deaths while I wrote this, who's soul is richer because of it?  

 

It is non-sense    

 

I am sorry for what you and your family went threw as well as your sister.  It makes sense that there is no sense about it. There is something inhuman about being able to numb what we feel and think about it in order to defend a doctrine, faith or belief in such a god. It seems to be a mental illness like someone who is convinced of a delusion...who has a delusion

 

 

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TGBaker wrote: It makes

TGBaker wrote:

 It makes sense that there is no sense about it.

Exactly, I am perfectly at peace with the fact their are all kinds of nasties in the natural world and my sister was unlucky in that regard.  When someone envolks a loving creator, it makes me very much not at peace with it.  It just raises more questions, and makes no sense of the situation. 

 

TGBaker wrote:

There is something inhuman about being able to numb what we feel and think about it in order to defend a doctrine, faith or belief in such a god. It seems to be a mental illness like someone who is convinced of a delusion...who has a delusion

Their arguments to this "problem of bad" in the end all boil down to "god is god, and therefore everything he does is right, I know this because of my faith."  I truly believe that holding this position is having a mental disorder.

 

 


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NoMoreCrazyPeople

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:

TGBaker wrote:

 It makes sense that there is no sense about it.

Exactly, I am perfectly at peace with the fact their are all kinds of nasties in the natural world and my sister was unlucky in that regard.  When someone envolks a loving creator, it makes me very much not at peace with it.  It just raises more questions, and makes no sense of the situation. 

 

TGBaker wrote:

There is something inhuman about being able to numb what we feel and think about it in order to defend a doctrine, faith or belief in such a god. It seems to be a mental illness like someone who is convinced of a delusion...who has a delusion

Their arguments to this "problem of bad" in the end all boil down to "god is god, and therefore everything he does is right, I know this because of my faith."  I truly believe that holding this position is having a mental disorder.

 

 

I posted an argument against the existence of god because if everything he did was right (simply his whim) :

I think the comparison of moral well being to physical health is a legitimate one by Harris.  The hypothetical positing of a state of the worst suffering by the most beings for the longest period of time imaginable is a negative thesis from which a positive antithetical can be viewed. It is appears to me to be exactly what evolution has built into life. Animals move from pain, suffering and a hostile environment to avoid pain and suffering. Further natural selection has developed the experience of pleasure as an attraction to many positive things. This seems to me to be the origins of morality even prior to the development of the human species. Now that self consciousness has appeared we can abstract, examine, judge and make goals to move with more intent in a better state of well being.

The dangers of theism is seen in the Divine Command Theory:

One could argue that if god sees something good for a reason rather than his arbitrary will (whim) then god is relative to reason. ( The Divine Command Theory). But if the good of god is a whim then god is not really god. His act is not even really good it is accidental and deemed good by the relative state of the recipients impression.  If god on the other hand has no reason for his will then his will is not subject or relative to reason and is arbitrary and not really an act of will. It is simply a random act. But if his will is subject to reason and then judgment then these  properties are limiters to god and he is relative to standards apart from himself.  If these reasons or will on the other hand are situational ( derive from god's reaction or action to creation) then he again is relative to creation and the situation. To say god experiences our world is to make him relative to our world in that his perception is dependent on what occurs in the world and our "freewill" acts.  The only workable concept of an absolute god that I know of is Aristotle's which is only self aware and has no experience of the imperfect things that orbit around him attempting to obtain perfection. So even if there were a god everything would be relative or it would have no contact or awareness of our universe.

If this type of theological analysis is valid then we see several of the dangers that manifest from morality based on theism. To maintain that god is absolute scripture is typically viewed as Divine Command and propositional statements. The conclusion that whatever is good is at the whim of god does not bother hard core Calvinists.  Many other believers simply are not aware of the implication. Obviously the relativizing of the morality in the bible is done by various hermeneutics whether dispensational, progressive replacement by  the commands of Jesus or what have you.  But many others take the commands as they understand them literally. We all know such examples.

Those who assume reason is a transcendent or logical state from which god  derives his thoughts decisions and actions also take a deontological view or a rigid form of legalism which often leads to a casuistry as convoluted as that morality based upon scripture. And often the definition of reason is still biblically based. If not then humanity can arrive at a moral answer situationally through empirical judgment.

This and the additional arguments or defeaters of the freewill defense of an a limitless god seems to me to be an unexpected argument against the existence of a Judeo-Christian god.  The idea of a panentheism is also unwarranted in that it is an unneeded hypothesis that does nothing above and beyond natural selection in the origins and development of morality. But then that is just me.

Morals are simply physiological responses of the brain in objectifying an event, experience or thing.  They are therefore physical if not material in nature. An abstraction or a mental program is simply stored information that is altered by empirical and mental processes (which themselves are physical).  They are not outside of humans any more than a group's belief in a particular political party lies outside of that collective process of human exchange. Abstraction is to make a symbolic representation of something thus the attributing properties to things. We make situations and events things though they are really complex processes.

 It was a good game.  The weather was terrible. The picture was beautiful.  Killing is bad. Lying is wrong. To love is divine. These qualities represent an experience...not from the external world but from a mental construct that is a nexus of sensory and mental processes such as language, vision, hearing, smell and feeling that are presented as what some philosophers of mind and consciousness call qualia.  Some go your route and deem them as transcendent or non-physical.  But they are a physical process of neurons, dendrites, axions that form specialized modules of processing in the brain that are in turn presented to another physical process called consciousness. Since you can not externally see or experience  a number like 3 or 7 externally but only the numberal representing such it is deemed as non-physical. However that process of 3 or 7 is an actual physiological occurance in your neurons that when you thing of the word or number  it manifests as a conscious thought with all of your accumulated experience and thoughts into a single experience in which the qualia itself is a representation to your consciousness.

 

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Christians (blackvulcan and

Christians (blackvulcan and whoever else), I have a "proof of atheism" that I posted here on my weblog. Can any of you refute my argument? It starts at the bolded definition of Theism, the stuff before is just a preamble.

 

Also...the online community in general (looking specifically at social networking sites that don't specifically cater to one particular demographic) seems to have a higher representation of atheists than theists of any stripe. Do you think this is because of the anonymity of the internet filtering out the social stigma surrounding atheism, is it because atheists are less sensitive to trolls attacking their atheism, is it because religious people are just less interested in online communication with people they've never met, is it because there really are far fewer religious people in the industrialized world than we previously thought, or is it some combination of these factors? Or is it something else?


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some more stuff

Hmmm, I think I understand the problem of evil and I suppose I also agree a lot with it.

To be honest, I see God as more of my own personal friend, since I have seen things happen from prayer, and similarly, a few carefully placed coincidences here and there. So I cannot simply ignore it all and leave it to chance.. since if it is.. then I must really be one in a million or something. Though to be honest, the problem of evil is also something that really negates the present of an essentially "good" God, in which case it means either he is not fully "good"(in which case, like in Stephen Hawking's Grand Design, a God or supernatural entity is no longer required), which would then of course contradict everything in religion and all that and to put things plainly, I'm not as much of a theist as I think I should be.

Simply put.. I'm confused Sticking out tongue though I still wouldn't mind an imaginary friend, real or not since for me, I still have a sort of reason to believe in Him. Though I personally am also sorry for any Christians who might've been all Holier Than Thou on you, I know how it must feel.

Oh, and why are evolution and creation against each other? can't it equally meant that assuming a God exists, his method of creation was evolution and that creation was not meant to be taken literally?(though the order would then be wrong, if it was light/big bang->heavens/stars and nebulaes then earth/planets->waters oceans/earth cooling then elements reacting to form water->land->plants(probably first visible living thing to evolve)->animals/evolved from them)->man(evolved from apes)->rest(now)). I know it's dumb but.. I never took creation literally anyway and I know enough to know evolution is true as well.

Though I know nearly all evidence is against the existence of a sentient God, don't plan on dropping my God yet since he acts as a good placebo, plus.. my logic and rationality prevent me from making wrong choices from religion while my belief in God helps me remain morally sound(since to be honest.. I was sort of an atheist before and... my life was bad... so this works for me and there is an element of miracle, mystery and authority so I'm satisfied for now). Though I know most of the time, it's hard to know something can't exist but believing in it anyway(though this is faith I suppose).

I know you'll prolly not agree but live and let live I suppose. I'll just be lurking around mostly in the philosophy and science sections but before that... small question, what do atheists believe happens during/after death? Since assuming a heaven doesn't exist(which it doesn't, unless it's on an alternate dimension since most of the missing mass has been found apparently.. and I doubt dark matter=heaven anyway), I've always been curious since it is impossible for us to really envision what death is like since our consciousness is blank when we're without it and continues off somewhere else. And do you know where there are any topics about the conscious mind? since I've always been wondering about that, I'm reasonably sure it is merely a part of our brain, but then what happens to it? Sorry, I've just always wondered what nonexistence is like... almost makes me want to die right now to find out XD it just really sucks that all our experiences, emotions, and memories are so thoughtlessly cast away into oblivion.


"What matters our creative, endless toil,

     When at a snatch, Oblivion ends the coil?"

 


BlackVulcan
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 @BenfromCanadaYes, it is

 @BenfromCanada

Yes, it is mainly because Christians aren't into communication with people they've never met and the anonymity lets many people come out from the woodwork. Though thanks for sharing your own opinions, though I fully understand all the logic disproving His existence(well, actually just disproving He's what the books say He is, and I myself find it strange how I still believe in a God while seeing this all around me), but I'd still rather stick to them since they have done no harm, especially because I have no qualms whatsoever with people of differing religions or atheists(unless they turn all preachy as well, since the human ego detests that to the nth degree).

 

Oh yeah, BobSpence1, why do you have no more respect for philosophy? is it because of the lack of any significant progress in it?(which is understandable seeing as we have no outside frame of reference to truly understand ourselves, nor do we have a truly objective method of obtaining information since everything is filtered through the senses) or is it because there is no practical use for it? just curious, since I find it equally as engaging as science and technology, especially regarding the human consciousness and perception.

I'd also just like to say I actually like this forum(I lurk fairly often), and thanks for the welcome, even though I'm on the other side of the fence(though I personally think I'm more in the middle ducking from the crossfire).


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Stephen Hawking is saying

Stephen Hawking is saying that God is not necessary to explain the existence of the Universe,and I would go further, assuming a God would introduce something that required an explanation itself, ie  it complicates things, rather than explaining anything.

That is separate from the moral issue, where the evidence is massively against a 'good' God, our morality is far better explained by natural/evolutionary processes.

Evolution by Natural Selection never disproved God, what it did was remove one of the major arguments for God.

Dark matter is a natural phenomenon, only detected by empirical observation, namely its gravitational effects, so has no necessary connection to anything Supernatural.

There is no real evidence that anything more happens at death other than our brain shutting down and our consciousness simply ceasing. There have been threads here around 'Near Death Experiences' which try to show some evidence of conscious experience dissociated from the brain. The subject does keep coming up either specifically, or as part of an argument for belief of some sort.

I find it sad that you feel God helps keep you 'morally sound', since the doctrines of Christianity include much that is definitely not moral, and a God points to a 'might makes right' system, rather than a moral one.

OTOH, I can understand that you feel comforted and/or 'stabilised' in your outlook by the idea, since that is the standard psychological attraction of such beliefs or feelings, which is a big reason why religion came to be and persists. It doesn't work for everyone, and can cease to work as they progress thru life, for various reasons. It usually is associated with a degree of stress and anxiety in the person's life, which it may help to offset. So you are simply human to feel that way, not  'deluded'. Your other comments show you are aware of the logical and other problems of the idea, but still feel it. Those feelngs are certainly real. It is when people will not even accept the possibility that God is not a real entity, in the face of the evidence, that we can start applying the label 'delusional'.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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 Ok quick rant before the

 

Ok quick rant before the hockey game.
BlackVulcan wrote:
Hmmm, I think I understand the problem of evil and I suppose I also agree a lot with it.To be honest, I see God as more of my own personal friend, since I have seen things happen from prayer, and similarly, a few carefully placed coincidences here and there. So I cannot simply ignore it all and leave it to chance.. since if it is.. then I must really be one in a million or something.
  You understand we all experience these million to 1 coincidences right?  Some more than others depending on how much you pay attention.  For example:  I've really only ever seriously liked 2 girls in my life, the one I'm with, and a girl I went to high school with, both I've known for over 10 years.  A while ago, the girl from high school left me a message on my voice mail, hadn’t even seen her in 5 years.  The next day, she pulled up next to my car at the 7eleven at 11:30 at night.  What are the chances right?  She lives in my city, I drive by her work all the time on regular commutes, never seen her once. She leaves a "how have you been" voicemail and I see her the next day.  Do I take this as more than what it is, no, it is a coincidence.  I have lots of this kind of stuff happen, more if I paid more attention I'm sure, I'm sure many here have more dramatic stories of unbelievable coincidences than this.  I guess the difference between us is I don't make it about myself as if some "magic" things are happening to me, "signs of my destiny" or something, nope it just happened. 
BlackVulcan wrote:
Though to be honest, the problem of evil is also something that really negates the present of an essentially "good" God, in which case it means either he is not fully "good"(in which case, like in Stephen Hawking's Grand Design, a God or supernatural entity is no longer required), which would then of course contradict everything in religion and all that and to put things plainly
Sure their could be a "god" that is somewhat powerful or somewhat good, but then it's not really god is it? It could be advanced aliens or something with that description.  How "good" and how powerful does one have to be to be considered a god?  Would you consider a being that can manipulate stars and hole galaxies even universes a god?  What if it was with technology they had developed and not "magic!!!" is the trick less spectacular to you?  Why one "god" and not many. These are some of the silly things I wonder when I put on my believer hat and try to define "god" to myself.   Would you the believer in the magic god have a bad reaction to finding out the universe WAS created BUT in a completely natural way not by a "god" with magic but by a highly advanced entities science experiment gone kabooom.  Would you worship this natural and explainable entity?  How "good" would it have to be to deserve your worship, how powerful?  Would it have to at least have the power to give you everlasting life?  hmm...What if the advanced entity was not powerful enough to give you any advantages in life or death, couldn't communicated with you at all, but he was "all good," he wished you the best?  Would he still be your god?I’m not trying to get you to drop your belief in “god” or anything, you seem pretty reasonable and open, I just wonder how the gears work behind the unique clocks of every theist.  

GTG Game time, we might actually do it this year!!!


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Crossover wrote:Got any?

Crossover wrote:

Got any? When I say questions I mean doctrinal questions. Like "why does God allow epole to starve" or "explain you wacky view of three Gods in one"....not science stuff and not debate stuff. This is for people who would actually like to learn more about the people they have come to disagree with. I don't want this to be a debate...just Q & A. Later I will post a questions for athiest topic, where I will ask you questions and you will answer them for me...no debates, just Q & A.

 

So, any questions???????

I don't believe in this god but I as well as anyone else here could make anything you like fit as well and as long as you have "faith" to cement it in we can make it fact while we are at it.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


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And..

@BobSpence1 

Uhhhh, when I say God keeps me morally sound.. I am talking about the epistles and some of that stuff.. for example Romans 2, not the part where it is talking trash to the gentiles but on the part where we cannot judge them since we do the same, the part that if they do right, they are just as good as us which is why we should not constantly impose ourself on them or condemn them(which is also why I am very curious as to why many Christians are doing the opposite). Also the stuff about how to treat people with kindness and compassion, as well as learning to accept others. Not entirely sure why you believe Christianity is immoral, because my "Christianity" is mostly just about my relationship, which is why I want to keep that, and as for the rest of religion, which I suppose is where the bigot doctrines come from, I drop that since I know that's not what he would want us to do(if you read it properly[though I also realize interpretations vary so it might change as well], Jesus himself was not about organized religion, just having a personal and fatherly relationship with said God). This is what I believe at least, and I have yet to see what is immoral about it, perhaps you could give me a few hypothetical cases?

Also, I do know what Stephen Hawkings is saying, I have read the book(not finished, since I still have around.. 2800 pages total to read from the intel assembly manual thing, and I also read lots of classic novels as well so I don't find the time). Which is why I understand it all, I know that evolution and the current scientific paradigm show that God is not required, coupled with the fact of the problem of evil as well as the fact that he would allow churches to use his name to do very immoral things sort of implies that should something like Him exist(in alien form or whatever, he would not be what the churches make him out to be).

@NoMoreCrazyPeople

I know these million to one coincidences, it's just that they happen to me at a very large rate, which is heavily affected or seemingly affected by prayer(though my prayer is more like a conversation, much like the one I'm having with you today, I just speak to him as a friend). Like in your case, give me 5 of those in one day happening many more times as well than for the average person. Which is also why I said I must either be a really lucky person that the randomness of the universe is painting such a colorful picture of my life, or there might be something influencing it to even a miniscule degree. It also helps me need for that to stabilize me, and I try my best not to let my beliefs hurt others, which gets easier and easier the more I see Christians saying those things about atheists or what they do to people that don't fit their doctrine. I don't even think it's a product of their faith, rather it's using their faith as an excuse to let their ego run free, which I find rather sad.

At any rate, hope you all the best of luck and I once again apologize for any religious people that might've caused you all grief in the past.

And to be fair, it wasn't exactly just the abrahamic religions that cause most wars, "activist activities" and hate, rather they were just scapegoats, twisted to justify it all. Bin Laden hated the humiliation his people went through at the hands of the Western people(wherein prior to it, the Middle Eastern countries were very poor and their installed governments were predominantly corrupt), where instead of choosing to try and alleviate his country, he instead wanted the Americans to feel the same humiliation and pain he felt. Same goes with other wars, just poster boys while selfish greed, personal enmity and other such things then take charge. For example even in the Quran, Buddhist philosophy, and Bible, many of them are against treating others this way or lashing out and hurting others. Though once again it becomes about interpretation, which is where everything goes to hell...


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BlackVulcan wrote: Also the

BlackVulcan wrote:

 Also the stuff about how to treat people with kindness and compassion, as well as learning to accept others. Not entirely sure why you believe Christianity is immoral,

So many reasons...brain...overloading...

According to your religion a serial killer child molester can make it to heaven scott free after he repents but I will suffer in hell (or won't be in heaven) for being an apostate who harms no one because belief and faith is more important than actions and who you are as a person. 

Your religion indoctrinates children before the age of reason, this is just plain wrong, and disturbing.

Believers of the christian doctrine don't seem to have a problem with billions dying in a rapture, or being in heaven while their loved ones suffer elsewhere, this disturbs me.

 Believers of the christian doctrine don't seem to have a problem with yahweh drowning babies in a flood, or sending angels to kills innocent children while they sleep, infact they teach these story to their children and read them before bedtime, it is all part of the disturbing indoctrination process.

I could go on and on about what I find immoral about christianity.

These are just examples of what Christianity entails, the mind behind the belief system, if we take into account the described actions of yahweh in the bible...well an entire book could be written on the immorality of the character.  No person on earth (hitler, stallin, manson who ever) has ever achieved the level of horror that yahweh brought on humanity in the bible. 


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Sure you can find passages

Sure you can find passages in such a large and inconsistent collection of thoughts as the Bible, which you find mesh with your own feelings.

But the fundamental tenets of Christianity are morally bankrupt.

The Garden of Eden story endorses the idea that disobedience to an authority figure is inherently a 'sin'. Hitler and Stalin would love this,

The defence of Hitler's deputies at Nuremburg that they were 'just following orders' would have to stand.

The G of E story also supports the idea of visiting punishment on the descendents of the 'sinners'.

It is an evil story.

The crucifiction scenario was a blatant scam. If JC really was teh Son of God, there was no sacrifice, the whole thing was just a stunt to impress the gullible. No one was seen to actually benefit from the ritual, unlike a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect his team-mates. Calling JC's fate a 'sacrifice' is an insult to every person who selflessly put his own life at risk to save someone else.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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I guess you're right

 Though similarly, I hope you understand that not all Christians are like that and I can also say that I reject all of those in Christianity, especially the idea that while "believers" are living an afterlife of luxury, their loved ones burn, and all those other stories. To be perfectly honest, the new testament, which is what most Christians refer to is nearly nothing like that. You don't have to say Christianity is full immoral as well because there are passages in that "large and inconsistent collect of thoughts" that reflect your feelings on Christianity as well. And like a rational human being, I try to imbibe the positive and respectable qualities shown in the Bible compared to the other stories you find there. I'm not saying I think it's perfect, but I am saying what moral qualities I do not have, the Bible helps me maintain, while whatever prejudices, and immoral things might persist in it, I reject or ignore entirely. Though I think whatever happens, we'll only agree to disagree, though I hope that I'm proof that not all Christians are close minded, prejudiced and "immoral" bigots(though from your experiences I agree, perhaps decent religious people are more the exception than the general majority).

I do also hope that you understand where I stand as well, and I must ask, what are your thoughts on people like me? out of curiosity, sorry


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BlackVulcan wrote: Though

BlackVulcan wrote:

 Though similarly, I hope you understand that not all Christians are like that and I can also say that I reject all of those in Christianity, especially the idea that while "believers" are living an afterlife of luxury, their loved ones burn, and all those other stories. To be perfectly honest, the new testament, which is what most Christians refer to is nearly nothing like that. You don't have to say Christianity is full immoral as well because there are passages in that "large and inconsistent collect of thoughts" that reflect your feelings on Christianity as well. And like a rational human being, I try to imbibe the positive and respectable qualities shown in the Bible compared to the other stories you find there. I'm not saying I think it's perfect, but I am saying what moral qualities I do not have, the Bible helps me maintain, while whatever prejudices, and immoral things might persist in it, I reject or ignore entirely. Though I think whatever happens, we'll only agree to disagree, though I hope that I'm proof that not all Christians are close minded, prejudiced and "immoral" bigots(though from your experiences I agree, perhaps decent religious people are more the exception than the general majority).

I do also hope that you understand where I stand as well, and I must ask, what are your thoughts on people like me? out of curiosity, sorry

I really appreciate your honesty and the fact that you are prepared to acknowledge that some key ideas put forth in the Bible can be seen as as not as 'nice' or as worthy of respect as those writers, or many modern Christians, would like to think.

I can understand why you would prefer to find parts of the Book that still 'work' for you, rather than reject the whole thing. That is natural, especially if you have grown up with it. Human beings are not 'rational' at the fundamental level, that would make us 'mere' robots, we really do need our emotional aspects, our urges and desires, these are what drive us to continue living in the face of many of the nasty things we encounter in our lives, and to find things which help us cope, and indeed inspire us.

My only issue here might be that there are other great writings, both ancient and contemporary, which can serve as well or better than the bible for those reassurances, at least for many people like myself and many others here. But we all vary in the way we see things, and we can change as we progress through life.

Even Richard Dawkins acknowledges that there are some parts of the Bible that deserve respect for the thoughts they express, and the poetry of the writing.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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BlackVulcan wrote:I'm not

BlackVulcan wrote:
I'm not saying I think it's perfect, but I am saying what moral qualities I do not have, the Bible helps me maintain, while whatever prejudices, and immoral things might persist in it, I reject or ignore entirely.

This is probably beating a dead horse, but do you simply embrace the parts of the Bible that you like and ignore the parts that you don't like?

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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More like

From all I've experienced with God so far, be they real or figments of my imagination or whatever, I believe in a God of love, kindness and empathy. I see him as someone who would rather let people walk their own path and not condemn them for it just because it's not completely the way he says so. I also do believe there is a sort of moral law, which is what he upholds if ever. Which is why the darker and resentful aspect of God's depiction in the Bible strikes me as odd given the other things there. It means either A, God has a split personality or B, it "might" have been written as to force other people to accept Christianity by asserting the "if you're not with us, you're burning in hell" sort of argument even to those who are just as virtuous as the rest of us. After all, if Christianity didn't have that sort of hook, I think it might've died out or waned at the least. Though I myself don't know what to believe(which is why I said many posts ago, the one thing I know is that I don't know anything), I still know what I choose to believe(which is what I "ignore," as you aptly put it).

I am not saying I'm right, but it's what I believe in and I chose to believe this. And like BobSpence1 said, we are very irrational creatures and this is my own version of irrational Smiling


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Okay, so you do see that

Okay, so you do see that it's possible that you are simply relying on your own feelings for moral guidance? Do you see how it is possible that the Bible has good and bad parts because it was written solely by fallible men, like every other book?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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BlackVulcan wrote:From all

BlackVulcan wrote:

From all I've experienced with God so far, be they real or figments of my imagination or whatever, I believe in a God of love, kindness and empathy. I see him as someone who would rather let people walk their own path and not condemn them for it just because it's not completely the way he says so.

So this is what I don't and probably never will understand...What you have described here is not the god of the bible, it just isn't.  I mean the last line in particular is the exact oppisite of the bibles Yahweh, literally the exact opposite.  So this where I get confused, you are a basically a "pure theist," someone who believe in a good god and pretty much leaves it at that.  You mold your god to fit the characteristics you would like him to have.  Why on earth do you hold on to the bible specifically, yahweh etc...  I see no reason to from your position, why do you defend the bible's absurdities?  Why not just believe in a god and leave it at that, we all know of a few nice even meaningful verses in the bible and other holy books, but the rest is .  So why hold onto it, or try to defend it, or mold the words to fit what you'd like them to say?  You can't just say "god is love" if you are pushing the god of the bible because that is not how the story goes.  The god you'd like to be real is "all love" ok and that's fine, but that is not yahweh, yahweh is like the drunken step dad who beats you senseless for not cleaning the house properly and then tells you he loves you next day. 

 

BlackVulcan wrote:

I also do believe there is a sort of moral law, which is what he upholds if ever. Which is why the darker and resentful aspect of God's depiction in the Bible strikes me as odd given the other things there. It means either A, God has a split personality or B, it "might" have been written as to force other people to accept Christianity by asserting the "if you're not with us, you're burning in hell" sort of argument even to those who are just as virtuous as the rest of us.

If the stories are true then yahweh definetly has multiple split personalites, all the way from burning down cities and flooding the entire earth killing all man women and child, to his strange sidekick jesus (himself) who cleans other humans feet and lets people mock him, and everywhere in between.  It just doesn't make a lick of sense he's killing children one day, and telling you to be "good" the next.  And if your not "good" he's gone fuck you up the next day.

If the bible is not true  then your B is correct, as well as C:  The bible is filled with absurdity after absurdity and moral garbage because man was much more primitive, ignorant, and didn't have explanations for things.  So they attributed many of the horrors of our natural world to their gods of choice.   

BlackVulcan wrote:

After all, if Christianity didn't have that sort of hook, I think it might've died out or waned at the least.

Oh it has a hook alright, the large dark shiny kind.  Islam has a nice hook too, a religions ability to "hook" people is no testament to the truth of the claims.  Scientology tells of a gallactic warlord named Xenu who kidnapped billions of aliens and blew them up on the mountains of hawaii and they became evil spirits that now haunt man...there are millions of Scientologists.  People like to get hooked.

 

 


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uhhhhhh

 Okay, I'll make this quick since I have a hell of stuff for tomorrow.. and I am not exactly saying I am defending everything in God and I can say I am a pure theist I suppose given your definition. And I can say from the ones I've read(new testament, seriously.. most of your "evil" God stuff is in the old testament, and yeah.. I defend that portion since it speaks of a God of love that isn't like the ones you've seen before. I already mentioned a few portions that do show it. And from what I've read, most of it isn't as sadistic as the yahweh you've been slandering for... all your life perhaps? And also, Jesus is a decent enough role model to aspire to be, which is why I do hold on to it.

I hold on to the Bible possibly because it was the religion I experienced maybe? and given the things I've seen, things I've felt, it hasn't exactly stabbed me in the back yet. And... I don't really know what to say to really clarify myself to you since to be frank, I don't know myself.

Though I think you might've misinterpreted what  said in the next two quotes since I sort of meant that those darker portions, that evil God was written as the hook to keep people to it, rather than making their own path. Every lie is based on a kernel of truth(I think), so who's to say that the BS parts rly are BS and the other parts aren't? When the Bible tends to contradict or work against itself, what else can I do but accept and believe what better fits my understanding and opinion of God? And I said perhaps the reason they put that "large dark shiny" hook is so that it wouldn't die out? That was just a minor afterthought though, so you know Sticking out tongue

Also, though you admit there are nice and meaningful verses in the bible, you constantly attack it like there's nothing decent in it(minus the few anecdotes here and there). Just an observation, and I'm just hoping you could be even a little bit more fair towards it? Sorry if it's sort of muddled but I have a few things on my plate at the moment and it's very stressful...

One last thing, I'm not the only "pure theist" who is a Christian, I can say there are many others like me(at least from where I'm from, who are nothing like those you see on the internet[and really, I seriously doubt they're Christians if they can be so spiteful and offensive.. and I really am sorry for what you've suffered at their hands...)

 edit: @butterbattle:
yeah I do, which I've stated already before. I already know that the Bible may be made by fallible men, which is why I don't believe the Bible is a "perfect book" seeing as how it's been corrupted by their bigotry and all that. I know that, which is why I make sure my own reason and rationality help safeguard me from falling in the same places many Christians stumble over(which is why they are often bigots who can do those things that you have probably seen to much of). I already said before, I know it might all be wrong, but I cling to them because my religion helps balance me out morally, and it gives me a sense of peace when I am stressed out or frustrated.

And as for the afterlife, I accept whatever life throws my way... the only thing I really hate about death is the separation from the people I love(which is also why I don't like the Christian idea of heaven... and why I can be very troubled about death as well, since I'd rather die a thousand painful deaths than be separated from those I care for[yeah, I know the problem with this figure of speech, when I die, I still will be separated but I think you can see the point]).

Honestly though, I really love humanity(though I do strongly detest people who use circular arguments, fault reasoning and really... people blind to reason and logic[yes, I also see the irony here since this for you is the average Christian]) and I feel very badly whenever I hear Christians cursing atheists and vice versa.. which is sort of why I hope for a day when people can really accept each other, regardless of the other's beliefs and gods... though I also know that this will probably never happen...


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Okay. Cool, you pass my

Okay. Cool, you pass my test.  Lol.

Have fun with your other discussions. 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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In the book of Mark we read

In the book of Mark we read about faith healing. Why can't faith healers heal the missing limbs of soldiers coming back from a war? Or even a Christian who's lost a limb through an accident.

Why does god punish Job and allow Satan to punish him as well and how can this possibly be justified as an act of a loving deity?

Why are there many variations of the bible & which one is right? It appears the Jewish Tanach is the only one that's not been tainted over the years by poor translation, unlike the King James versions.

Why follow a religion like Christianity and not one of the other man made ones?

Do you realise the death & suffering Christianity has caused throughout history as it forced itself upon the indigenous people?

Do people that have never heard of god or Christianity go to hell?

Does a dead fetus go to heaven or hell?

 

 

Scotland The Brave


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michael607 wrote:If everyone

michael607 wrote:

If everyone walked on water, raised people from the dead, healed people, turned water into wine, transfigure, etc. Then we could all claim that we were the Son of God and divine or Apostles. The whole point of miracles where to prove that Jesus was the Son of God and that the Apostles were his representative (since some of them did miracles also) These things have been recorded in the Bible and He closed the cannon and will not do them again. I am only speaking from one "theist" point of view because "theists" don't have a unified belief system. As I wrote in another forum, there are somewhere in the range of 30,000 Christian denominations. If we did have a unified belief system there wouldn't be 30,000 Christian denominations. I can only speak from a Reformed Theology view (Calvinist). Oh yes.. Calvinist. Hated by atheist and Christian alike

That would suggest that modern day faith healers, exorcisms, demonic possession, miracles ect don't happen any more. If these things were only there during biblical times (convenient because primitive people have little understanding of their surroundings), then what evidence can the modern intelligent analytical human be given to justify the existence of a god?

It's a bit of a religious get out clause to say we won't see these things again. That arguably depends on which religion one follows, as theirs such a rich variety of supernatural tales to follow.

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Okay-

Kemono wrote:
I have one: please explain what you mean by 'God'.

 I can't say what others mean by "God". I can only speak for me and my team. If one studies the term it can be seen that different applications apply. It can mean "force(s)", It can mean "way", it can mean "power", it can denote  "person or personality", it can be considered as "that which governs", it can mean "government" as government is force,  among others. For me,  force and way apply the best. It is the forces I am under, that push, pull, compel, and direct. It is all the forces, internal and external combined. The inner forces of one's person, and the external forces that are exerted by others. That would mean that I regard others as God also, and I would be also God  because I exert force on them. The inner fores are presided over by Love and Contempt. That would mean that my "inner" is a God of combined love and contempt, and I regard the inner as ---me. Others have the same "inner " as me, and that means we are the same.  I recognize the forces that preside over others as well as myself. God then, is the terms on how I regard and relate to others, that means "way" enters in. God then, can also show "the way I am" in regard to others. And that's when morals and ethics come into play. Morals are the inner forces that keep me from harming others. Ethics is a force that compels me to be honest, and fair with others. What this all means is, my GodWay is that which is the forces of me and others. Within my inner structure there is man and animal forces, and that means I see God as the combination of the two. That combination compels me to reason that I can interpret life from both, or confine it to one. These two are the "Way's" I can be.

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In other words, "god" for

In other words, "god" for you means "white noise". 


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Jack_Glass_1903 wrote:In the

Jack_Glass_1903 wrote:

In the book of Mark we read about faith healing. Why can't faith healers heal the missing limbs of soldiers coming back from a war? Or even a Christian who's lost a limb through an accident.

Why does god punish Job and allow Satan to punish him as well and how can this possibly be justified as an act of a loving deity?

Why are there many variations of the bible & which one is right? It appears the Jewish Tanach is the only one that's not been tainted over the years by poor translation, unlike the King James versions.

Why follow a religion like Christianity and not one of the other man made ones?

Do you realise the death & suffering Christianity has caused throughout history as it forced itself upon the indigenous people?

Do people that have never heard of god or Christianity go to hell?

Does a dead fetus go to heaven or hell?

 

 

Be careful there, sir. All of that happened, true. But without those events you and I would not be here. All previous events before were were born  led to the coming together of our parents. Had these events not taken place  our parents would never have existed. Evil can bring about a good, a good can bring about an evil. All that evil on your side of the fence brought about a good----you. On my side of the fence---me. (I'm not trying to stomp your guts out-I present this for something to reason) If you could change past events, would you.

 

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Crossover wrote:Got any?

Crossover wrote:

Got any? When I say questions I mean doctrinal questions. Like "why does God allow epole to starve" or "explain you wacky view of three Gods in one"....not science stuff and not debate stuff. This is for people who would actually like to learn more about the people they have come to disagree with. I don't want this to be a debate...just Q & A. Later I will post a questions for athiest topic, where I will ask you questions and you will answer them for me...no debates, just Q & A.

 

So, any questions???????

We,re on our own. "We" allow people to starve. We devised a system on our own that cannot/will not solve the problems it created for itself. The world follows the wrong one, it's one the leaders created, mainly, they took the place of God and became it.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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