Yes, there is fear of hell...

tracifish
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Yes, there is fear of hell...

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly.

Anyone can say "I am a Christian"...but Jesus said:

 

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Jacob Cordingley
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The sad thing is that it's

The sad thing is that it's all too common. Clearly this is a very advantageous meme for the "species" of Christianity's survival, it is a mechanism by which the meme can hook itself into the person's mind, just as hookworms can. Meme species' without such mechanisms die out.

It is disturbing how so many people are trapped by these clearly succesful memes. A good dose of logic sometimes isn't enough to flush them away!


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Iruka Naminori wrote: You

Iruka Naminori wrote:
You know what got rid of my fear of hell? I came to realize how ridiculous the whole idea is. I came onto a forum (not this one, but one where the people realized how ridiculous the idea of hell is) and used my intellect to mock the god of the bible, Christianity, the idea of hell, the idea of heaven. And I laughed about it.

Humor is the ultimate tool against fear.


Good story.
That last line is especially quotable!


Brian37
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Quote: Humor is the

Quote:
Humor is the ultimate tool against fear.

Is that why everyone allways pokes fun at my armpit oder?Or maybe some fear that they might like barbaquing kittens and spreading cooties.

Meh.....is it posible to feel apathy about apathy? Or are the crickets going to swarm my jokes?

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Quote: Rome. It was just

Quote:
Rome. It was just Rome being Rome again.

Hehe... good one.

I know it was Rome, that wasn't what I asked... I asked you to think of motivation and dogma, considering that religion and fear of "corruption" that would send everyone to hell was the actual engine of it.

Quote:
God chose Israel...and from the line of Jacob, he prophecied the Messiah would come. He made a promise to Abraham and also to Moses. Well, he made Messianic promises all through the o.t. and it is through Israel that we have the word of God. He likes to use small and seemingly insignificant things. It wouldn't be as amazing, had he used a super-power...like Rome. Okay. That was only the first question. I'll be working on the second one...

Have you ever thought that perhaps an omnipotent God doesn't have to impress to get his message through? He could have just imprinted it in our minds. We are still free to reject it, but at least this way we know it without possibility of error or interpretation.

Quote:
God commanded that they kill some people...not because they were in the way...but because of their destructiveness. According to the bible, we are ALL evil, by nature...even Israel was. But Israel was His chosen nation...and He ordered Israel to kill anyone that would wipe out their line...as many are trying to do...to this day.

Doesn't it strike you that labelling: "bad" ? Can you really apply it nation-wide? Name one nation today that is "bad" or "evil".

Also, Israel failed God's orders in a very funny way (at a certain point, emperor Hadrianus, who really could't give a greater rat's a$$ about God or Jesus, got sick of Israeli's rebellious nature and sent a few legions to solve the problem; and they almost solved it completely, somehow anticipating Stalin's saying: "No man, no problem&quotEye-wink.

Bottom line: if God wanted to remove something out of the way of his "chosen people", he could have done it without scarring the Israelis, and he could have done it without senselessly enslaving and murdering the others. I doubt that the children that were killed out of God's order were all "evil", I doubt that the young women who were dragged into slavery were all evil, and, frankly, I doubt that you can call one "evil" because of trying to defend his land and family from an invading army, be it the "army of the chosen people" or not. Regarding most of the nations the Israelis swept through in their path, nowhere is it said exactly in which way were they "evil" or "destructive", but more, it sounds as if they were to be destroyed simply because of standing in the way.

Quote:
It did not, completely. Israel disobeyed many times...as I'm sure we would have...had it been us...or I would have, anyway. Who wants to kill a bunch of people? As evil as we are...we still do not like the idea of killing. well, some do...but, mostly, killing bothers people.

Of course it does bother people. That's how people are. God is ordering something, and then he gets mad because his children behaved exactly as he had previously created them to behave. All-loving, omniscient God? I think not.

 

To relate back to your problem, now, as you've successfully got the message I wanted to transmit through those questions (don't bother answering the others unless you really want to). I know that this god of the Christians, if he is real, is in no way a merciful, loving god, but a cruel, demanding one, and Jesus, although a big improvement, is more of a mystic that nobody actually knows what he really wants and expects. I couldn't love such a god even if I tried. And even if I show everyone else that I might be a big churchgoer, this god is also supposed to be omniscient, so I'm not fooling him.

Considering that the Biblical god is a logical absurdity as well, and since there are so many religions, all looking alike, and since nobody has ever been able to bring even the faintest proof on the existence of a god, and considering that 90% of humanity's gods have "died" into oblivion and I see no reason why this god should be different,... considering all these, I have solved my problem with going to hell. If it doesn't exist, as nature kind of points out now, then I'm OK. If it does exist, I cannot avoid it anyway, so why worry?

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
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Iruka Naminori
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traci, I imagine you feel a

traci, I imagine you feel a bit overwhelmed right now by all the responses.  I just wanted to tell you I really do know how you feel because I've been there. 

I'm going to guess you feel trapped because you're afraid you've committed the unforgivable sin.  I thought I'd committed it, too, at one point.  On one hand you'd like to doubt Christianity (or hell...or that you've committed the unforgivable sin).  On the other hand, you're afraid that doubting will also land you in hell. 

Religion is full of catch-22's like that.  You need to ask yourself if a loving god would really require so much mental anguish.  I say no.  Even if you don't leave religion, you need to leave belief in hell behind you.

Your post made me remember exactly why I have declared a personal "jihad" against religion.  Those who claim it does no harm are so full of it.  Even if it didn't cause murders and wars (it does), there is an enormous toll on the believers themselves--at least the fundy ones.  And as long as there is religion there will be fundies.

Again, if you can't question all religion, at least realize that no loving god would send you to hell.  

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Epicurius seems appropriate

Epicurius seems appropriate here...

 If God is willing, but not able to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent.
If God is able, but not willing, he is malevolent.
If God is both willing and able, then whence cometh evil?
If God is neither willing, nor able, then why call him god?

Note that "free will" really isn't an answer here, you end up right back at the beginning. Our free will is already limited to some degree in this universe, even just by the laws of nature, so why not such a common and simple thing with such incredibly grave consequences? Particularly when the consequences were made by god himself? Not able, not willing?

It sounds like a set-up to me, and not by any god... 

 

 

 


tracifish
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Rigor O Mortis, Here is

Rigor O Mortis, Here is the question that I had previously skipped:

Quote:
Also, please tell us where that "no more theocracy until Christ returns" comes from? I don't remember finding that in the Bible.
Of all the verses....to me, this sums it best: Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. If Jesus's kingdom is not of this world...and Christians are supposed to immitate Christ, then a Christian's kingdom should not be of this world...as in we should not seek to gain world power or to win the world to Christ through politics. The bible says we are not going to win the world to Christ anyway, since most will reject the gospel. Jesus, being God the Son, had every right to subdue the roman tyrrany...and cause all the world to bow and worship Him....but chose to humble himself. For us to try to impose a theocracy would be counter to His example and to the gospel message. That answers only part of your question. I will be back to explain how the bible indicates that God will not impose a theocracy until Christ's return. I apologize for my slowness....but will be back to complete the rest of the assignment, bit-by-bit.


tracifish
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Sleepyphoenix

Sleepyphoenix wrote:

Straight to the heart of the matter; is hell as a place for eternal punishment even a biblical concept? Or is it merely one way currupted church leaders used to control their congregations to ensure themselves power?

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

 

This essay (written by a christian) explains in some length how hell is not in the OT at all, and the very limited mentions of hell in the NT can be discredited.

This essay has most focus on the history of biblical translation. If you must believe, please dont live with unfounded fear as well. Too much of a waste.

 

Oooh...you have brought up a topic of much Christian in-fighting, whether or not hell/eternal punishment is in the ot. King James people say it is, NIV/other version people say it's not.

I see myself going off onto a long rabbit-trail. 'Tentmaker Ministries' sounds familiar....I shall have a look...


tracifish
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jce wrote:

jce wrote:

Hey Traci! Like the others, I am concerned for you. As far as your immediate worry, though, I think the fact that you do believe now trumps anything that happened before.

I will, however, encourage you to question anything that mandates that level of fear and causes you to question who you are. With or without Christianity, you are most likely a very good person who knows right from wrong; love from hate so please remember that.

Also, please continue to read these threads and educate yourself on the history of the bible. Those stories are not grounded in fact so your fears are unfounded.

Thank you. At this point, I don't know what to say....but, thank you...