Tom from RepentanceChallenge

tmajor
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Tom from RepentanceChallenge

Hi, my name is Tom, and I am the admin at RepentanceChallenge.com. I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

My purpose in coming here is not to start arguments, although because of the nature of this discussion it may be hard to avoid. I am primarily here to uphold the truthfulness of God and His written word, the Bible. Also, not only will I argue for the existence of God, but I will argue that all religions are false (tom, you said what?!?). I will openly say that religion has caused much trouble throughout history, and the only hope for mankind is not religion, but relationship!

See a religion, in my eyes, is a belief system that says that man is the center of the universe (e.g. mankind makes the rules). This includes even so-called christianity that is not centered on the Bible (e.g. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc). Instead I will argue that having a personal relationship with our Creator (who is in charge, not us), as it is presented throughout the text of the Bible (and only the bible), is man's primary purpose.

I will readily admit that I do not know everything, unlike some that I have seen in the RRS group that show great pride in their knowledge. Also, when confronted about some biblical or scientific issue that I am not aware of, I will simply say that I need to research it more. I will try to get back to comments as soon as possible, but I cannot reply to everything because of my busy schedule. I will say right now that I will not respond to flaim baits or other such comments. They are just a waste of my time.

BTW, you can see my initial response to the ABC debate on my blog: http://www.repentancechallenge.com/blog/2007/05/abc-nightline-god-challenge.html

I hope to have more responses soon.


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Awwww....you made all of

Awwww....you made all of that up, didn't you?  LOL

Well, you made me smile!  Welcome - I do hope you stick around and have fun.

 


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Welcome! Kindly explain to

Welcome!

Kindly explain to me why you feel that all religions are false.  I am assuming that this includes all sects/groups of Christianity (Pentecoastal, baptist, protestant, lutheran, etc), correct?  So, since no religion at all is true, then we can do away with churches?  All the holidays that celebrate these religions, such as Easter and Christmas?

Oh yeah, how do you know the Bible is the word of god?  Can you please provide empirical evidence to support that claim?  While I am certainly no expert regarding the Bible, I'm sure there will be other people much more educated in these matters that will join in the discussion.

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tmajor wrote: My purpose

tmajor wrote:

My purpose in coming here is not to start arguments, although because of the nature of this discussion it may be hard to avoid.

We're cool with debates and even arguments.  You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules of this forum, which in the heat of the moment sometimes get broken by both sides.  We are, after all, human.  

tmajor wrote:
I am primarily here to uphold the truthfulness of God and His written word, the Bible. Also, not only will I argue for the existence of God, but I will argue that all religions are false (tom, you said what?!?). I will openly say that religion has caused much trouble throughout history, and the only hope for mankind is not religion, but relationship!

How can you have a relationship with an invisible being that doesn't talk back, doesn't give feedback, doesn't respond to prayers and in all likelihood--99.9%--doesn't exist? 

tmajor wrote:
See a religion, in my eyes, is a belief system that says that man is the center of the universe (e.g. mankind makes the rules). This includes even so-called christianity that is not centered on the Bible (e.g. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc).

I'm sure the Mormon and Catholic theists that come to this site may have a word or two to say about that.  Why is your view correct and theirs wrong?

tmajor wrote:
Instead I will argue that having a personal relationship with our Creator (who is in charge, not us), as it is presented throughout the text of the Bible (and only the bible), is man's primary purpose.

See what I said above.   In order to justify this view you must first:

1) Prove god exists

2) Prove the bible is the word of god

3) Prove Christianity is true.

I won't hold my breath. 

tmajor wrote:
I will readily admit that I do not know everything, unlike some that I have seen in the RRS group that show great pride in their knowledge.

Ex-squeeeeze me?  If I have a lot of knowledge about something, I can be proud of the knowledge I've attained while simultaneously realizing how much I do not know.  In fact, the more I learn the more I realize how much there is to learn, so I make it a habit to learn, learn, learn.

Could you give a concrete example of this "attitude"?

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I think I'd rather you came

I think I'd rather you came here to start arguments, at least that would show you were willing to engage in open intellectual debate. I don't think you'll be converting any atheists here. Welcome anyway, it will be fun. I promise not to laugh at you too hard.


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Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum.


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tmajor wrote: I am a

tmajor wrote:
I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

 

(I said it five times real fast, now what?) 

 


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BGH wrote: tmajor wrote: I

BGH wrote:

tmajor wrote:
I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

 

(I said it five times real fast, now what?)

 

Now spin around while repeating "The bible is the word of god" until you get dizzy and fall down.  BGH - you always make me laugh!


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if the bible is the actual

if the bible is the actual word of god, he needs to take a course in basic writing skills. inconsistent, self contradicting, horrible fragmented sentences as well as run on sentences. my fourteen year old son is a better author.

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


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Your post didn't really say

Your post didn't really say anything substantial so I don't have anything to respond to it, but I read your blog about the debate and what debate did you watch?  Did you only watch the sanitized tv version?

 

Quote:
I personally thought Way of the Master did pretty good. There were a few rough spots where they didn't answer fully, but they did great overall. Sadly however, the RRS had little going for it other than old and outdated arguments that have already been refuted.

Cameron and Comfort accomplished nothing other than showing how little they know about the world.  Besides Kellys comment about Jesus never existing, I didn't ear a single world from Kelly and Brian that has been refuted.  Maybe you could show me these scientific studies that show what they said has been proven false.

Quote:
One rough spot in particular was when Brian/Kelly mentioned the laws of Thermodynamics supporting their claim about the universe always existing forever. They cited the law that says that matter cannot be created or destroyed and that it only changes form. Correct! However, they missed a minor detail; they used a law that works against their view, to support their view!

It is very true that matter cannot create itself nor be destroyed, by the laws of the universe that we live in. However, this does not negate an outside force that is not bound by these laws. In other words, this outside force, otherwise known as God, created the laws themselves

What?  Now I'm having a hard time answering this one because I'm trying to find the logic in your logic.  While it may be true that the law of thermodynamics that was discussed doesn't negate that an outside force may have caused the creation of all matter, to call it god is ridiculous.  We could call it the Easter bunny and it would be the same as you calling it god.

Quote:
This shows that since our universe could not have started out of its own initiative, then the only logical conclusion is that there is an outside force not bound by these laws! See, no faith involved in God, just "eyes that can see and a brain that works."

Again you see logic where this is none.  We don't know what's outside our universe.  For all we know the universe could be some tiny speck inside a very big ketchup bottle.  All of your arguments come from a book written by people a long time ago that has been refuted on numerous points.


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Welcome tmajor. It looks as

Welcome tmajor.

It looks as if you've been given a sampling of what's to come!

Regardless, I hope you hang around to join the debates and discussions.  We can always use well-spoken members (theist AND non-theist!).  The main thing, if you haven't already noticed, is be prepared to back up any assertions and arguments.  Also, remember that most of the folks around here do not count the bible as an authoritative source.

Again, welcome!

 

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tmajor wrote: Hi, my name

tmajor wrote:

Hi, my name is Tom, and I am the admin at RepentanceChallenge.com. I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

My purpose in coming here is not to start arguments, although because of the nature of this discussion it may be hard to avoid. I am primarily here to uphold the truthfulness of God and His written word, the Bible. Also, not only will I argue for the existence of God, but I will argue that all religions are false (tom, you said what?!?). I will openly say that religion has caused much trouble throughout history, and the only hope for mankind is not religion, but relationship!

See a religion, in my eyes, is a belief system that says that man is the center of the universe (e.g. mankind makes the rules). This includes even so-called christianity that is not centered on the Bible (e.g. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc). Instead I will argue that having a personal relationship with our Creator (who is in charge, not us), as it is presented throughout the text of the Bible (and only the bible), is man's primary purpose.

I will readily admit that I do not know everything, unlike some that I have seen in the RRS group that show great pride in their knowledge. Also, when confronted about some biblical or scientific issue that I am not aware of, I will simply say that I need to research it more. I will try to get back to comments as soon as possible, but I cannot reply to everything because of my busy schedule. I will say right now that I will not respond to flaim baits or other such comments. They are just a waste of my time.

BTW, you can see my initial response to the ABC debate on my blog: http://www.repentancechallenge.com/blog/2007/05/abc-nightline-god-challenge.html

I hope to have more responses soon.

If I take the Repentance Challenge, do I get anything?

Also, you claim that salvation is a free gift, according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Well, there are many parts of the bible that don't agree. Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 5:20, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:41-46, John 5:29, Romans 2:6, II Corinthians 5:10,  James 2:14 (probably my personal favourite for debunking this myth:"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?&quotEye-wink I Peter 1:17, Revelation 2:23, ALL say that works are required. And that isn't all of them. I could have added others, but that's more than enough.


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Thank you all for your

Thank you all for your comments. Some of you noted that there wasn't much in my first post to go off of (into a discussion a presume). My first post was not necessarily designed for that purpose. It was just introductory to my presence here. So, if anything was unclear in that post, the reason for it was because I was trying to be brief and to the point.

Anyways, I will make a brief response to some of your comments below. As I am going on a long road-trip in a few days (returning home from college), I cannot respond in any detail as of now. So please read my responses with extra care realizing that I am not giving you a full answer yet. Let me know which questions you care about most (It's easiest to do one question at a time). Thank you for your questions and keep them coming.

jce wrote:
Well, you made me smile!

Good to hear Laughing

pariahjane wrote:
Kindly explain to me why you feel that all religions are false. I am assuming that this includes all sects/groups of Christianity (Pentecoastal, baptist, protestant, lutheran, etc), correct? So, since no religion at all is true, then we can do away with churches? All the holidays that celebrate these religions, such as Easter and Christmas?

Remember that I am defining religion as a belief system that puts man at the center (review my first post). Also, I do not consider genuine biblical Christianity to be a religion. Again, there are warped views of Christianity that depart from the Bible, but biblical Christianity is not religion (I'll try to explain this further at a later date). It is relationship. Some have even viewed the bible as a giant love letter from God.

I'm not saying get rid of all religion, the way you are defining the term, I'm just saying that we should get rid of the incorrect ones. And of course atheism would also fit under my very broad definition of religion. How does it fit within my definition? Because God does not exist according to atheism, or at least He is not currently known to exist; therefore this means that mankind is in charge. (I'll try to say more on this later; remind me)

pariahjane wrote:
Oh yeah, how do you know the Bible is the word of god?

I can't go into full detail here, but I will give you a few criteria that I go by when thinking about this.

The Bible claims to be the word of God (2 Timothy 3:16), but so do other "holy books". Even if we could prove God's existence in a general sense (we know someone or something is out there), the question still remains: which God? The way we answer this is by analyzing the claims that the book makes. In fact the bible makes many claims that are testable including historical, prophetical, etc.

It's no small claim for a text to say that it knows the future. If it can be verified that the bible has accurately predicted the future, without any error, then I think we could say that this idea alone would prove that the God of the bible is who we should follow. (this is a big area, so I'll leave it for later)

Iruka Naminori wrote:
You might want to familiarize yourself with the rules of this forum...

Where do I find the rules? I found rules in a different forum/board on this site, but is there specific rules for this one to?

Iruka Naminori wrote:
How can you have a relationship with an invisible being that doesn't talk back, doesn't give feedback, doesn't respond to prayers and in all likelihood--99.9%--doesn't exist?

Well keep in mind I haven't even presented any arguments. All I've done is introduced myself and presented my beliefs based on my understanding and research up to this point. I am simply making the assumption right now, and will go into detail later.

If the bible can be proven, then that proves that God has talked to mankind. That also proves that we can have a personal relationship with Him. And this relationship is not some weird mystical thing, but real and genuine between the Creator and the creation. Notice how it all hangs on the validity of the bible? If the bible can be proven, then your question is really a moot point. I can't go into great detail now though.

Iruka Naminori wrote:
I'm sure the Mormon and Catholic theists that come to this site may have a word or two to say about that. Why is your view correct and theirs wrong?

I'm sure they would. I'll let you decide whether it's my view that is correct or not as our discussion continues.

American Atheist wrote:
Welcome to the forum.

Thanks Laughing

BGH wrote:
(I said it five times real fast, now what?)

Laughing hehe

Arletta wrote:
What? Now I'm having a hard time answering this one because I'm trying to find the logic in your logic. While it may be true that the law of thermodynamics that was discussed doesn't negate that an outside force may have caused the creation of all matter, to call it god is ridiculous. We could call it the Easter bunny and it would be the same as you calling it god.

I will try to clarify my blog post better. Any blog related questions/comments will need to be directed there. Thanks though for the comments Laughing.

BenfromCanada wrote:
If I take the Repentance Challenge, do I get anything?

The essence of the Repentance Challenge is a challenge simply to turn genuinely away from your sins and trust in Jesus Christ. You can do that without even being a part of http://repentancechallenge.com. What do you get? What don't you get, is a better question. God gives you His forgiveness of all your sins and even the guilt of them, puts His Spirit inside you, gives you eternal life in heaven with Him, and makes you a new creature with new motives and desires.

Anyways, don't want to get too preachy, but you asked Wink.

BenfromCanada wrote:
Also, you claim that salvation is a free gift, according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Well, there are many parts of the bible that don't agree. Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 5:20, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:41-46, John 5:29, Romans 2:6, II Corinthians 5:10, James 2:14 (probably my personal favourite for debunking this myth:"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?&quotEye-wink I Peter 1:17, Revelation 2:23, ALL say that works are required. And that isn't all of them. I could have added others, but that's more than enough.

A quick response: Most of the passages are simply taken out of context. I will go through each one very briefly (let me know if I need to clarify anything):

  • Jeremiah 17:10. The verse itself, nor the context, is talking about salvation. The word salvation, or other similar words, don't even show up.
  • Matthew 5:20. The scribes and pharisees saw righteousness as a matter of religious respectability or outward righteousness. One who enters the kingdom of God must exceed this in having inward righteousness; which, as the rest of the Sermon shows, is a transformed heart which produces outward actions naturally.
  • Matthew 12:37. I think we get a clue in verse 34 where it says "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good?...". Just from a quick glance at this passage, I think it's simply talking about how it will be obvious, by the way one talks, whether they are a child of God or not on the day of judgment.
  • Matthew 25:41-46. "It is God that makes heirs of heaven. We are not to suppose that acts of bounty will entitle to eternal happiness. Good works done for God's sake, through Jesus Christ, are here noticed as marking the character of believers made holy by the Spirit of Christ, and as the effects of grace bestowed on those who do them." source. It's contrasting the righteousness that comes from Christ with the ungodly. It's not a statement of good works=salvation.
  • John 5:29. One can only do good deeds if one is in Christ. One can only do bad deeds if they are outside of Christ. Without Christ, our 'righteousness is as filthy rags'.
  • Romans 2:6. The context is storing up wrath for the wicked, not general salvation. Another way to say what it says more understandably would probably be, 'because you didn't accept my forgiveness for each of your bad deeds, I will give you what you deserve according to your deeds, rather than my mercy and grace.'
  • 2 Corinthians 5:10. See, everyone will have to stand before the throne of God in the future, believers and unbelievers alike. However, will God look at your own worthless "good works" or will God instead see Christ's finished work in you that paid for all your sin? That's what I think it's referring to here.
  • James 2:14. Even here it is not talking about salvation. Also, we must be careful with the word "save", because that has other connotations. Notice in this verse that he is talking to believers ("my brethren&quotEye-wink. To put it simply, this James passage is talking about what will necessarily be the result of salvation in a believer's life. They will necessarily do good works. It's not saying that good works=salvation, just that genuine salvation results in good works. Another point is that what would be the point of faith if one wasn't going to do anything about it? It's like if I say I love my dad, but then I don't show it in my actions and how I treat him. What was the point of me even saying it?
Well, it's long enough as it is Eye-wink. I'll respond to the last few verses later as I have time. I'll be back in a few days.


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Just one point:Why does an

Just two points:

1)  What's the logic in creating a response to a challenge (the blasphemy challenge) that itself is a response to the majority viewpoint in the USA? 

 2) Why does an omnipotent god need you to tell me that he wants to give me a call?

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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tmajor

tmajor wrote:

BenfromCanada wrote:
Also, you claim that salvation is a free gift, according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Well, there are many parts of the bible that don't agree. Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 5:20, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:41-46, John 5:29, Romans 2:6, II Corinthians 5:10, James 2:14 (probably my personal favourite for debunking this myth:"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?&quotEye-wink I Peter 1:17, Revelation 2:23, ALL say that works are required. And that isn't all of them. I could have added others, but that's more than enough.

A quick response: Most of the passages are simply taken out of context.

 Same old theist playbook "out of context/translation error'. 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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tmajor

tmajor wrote:

BenfromCanada wrote:
If I take the Repentance Challenge, do I get anything?

The essence of the Repentance Challenge is a challenge simply to turn genuinely away from your sins and trust in Jesus Christ. You can do that without even being a part of http://repentancechallenge.com. What do you get? What don't you get, is a better question. God gives you His forgiveness of all your sins and even the guilt of them, puts His Spirit inside you, gives you eternal life in heaven with Him, and makes you a new creature with new motives and desires.

Anyways, don't want to get too preachy, but you asked Wink.

OK, but how do I know YOUR god is the true one? (By the way, click the second link in my signature, I disproved your religion pretty easily).

Regardless, I'd like to do the challenge, but I need SOME reward. Will you bake me some cookies if I take the Repentance Challenge? I could really use some.

tmajor wrote:
BenfromCanada wrote:
Also, you claim that salvation is a free gift, according to Ephesians 2:8-9. Well, there are many parts of the bible that don't agree. Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 5:20, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:41-46, John 5:29, Romans 2:6, II Corinthians 5:10, James 2:14 (probably my personal favourite for debunking this myth:"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?&quotEye-wink I Peter 1:17, Revelation 2:23, ALL say that works are required. And that isn't all of them. I could have added others, but that's more than enough.

A quick response: Most of the passages are simply taken out of context.

Which ones specifically?
tmajor wrote:
I will go through each one very briefly (let me know if I need to clarify anything):

  • Jeremiah 17:10. The verse itself, nor the context, is talking about salvation. The word salvation, or other similar words, don't even show up.

Jeremiah 17:10 (New International Version)


 

 10 "I the LORD search the heart
       and examine the mind,
       to reward a man according to his conduct,
       according to what his deeds deserve."This STRONGLY suggests that works, not faith, get the rewards. You don't need to say "salvation" specifically. Look at the whole chapter.It is talking about Judah, and that particular part is about getting things without earning them. Simply believing in something isn't earning anything.

tmajor wrote:

  • Matthew 5:20. The scribes and pharisees saw righteousness as a matter of religious respectability or outward righteousness. One who enters the kingdom of God must exceed this in having inward righteousness; which, as the rest of the Sermon shows, is a transformed heart which produces outward actions naturally.
  • So in other words, if you don't act well (produce good works) then you're not into the Kingdom of Heaven. Isn'tit mislabelling to say "faith alone" is what saves?
    tmajor wrote:
  • Matthew 12:37. I think we get a clue in verse 34 where it says "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good?...". Just from a quick glance at this passage, I think it's simply talking about how it will be obvious, by the way one talks, whether they are a child of God or not on the day of judgment.
  • In other words, those who talk in a particular way, and say inflammatory things (like Jesus said earlier in the passage) aren't going to heaven? Or is there another way to tell the righteous from the wicked based on speech? Regardless, this is another thing aside from simply believing that is required to get into heaven. Believe, do good works, and speak nicely. Not just "believe."
    tmajor wrote:
  • Matthew 25:41-46. "It is God that makes heirs of heaven. We are not to suppose that acts of bounty will entitle to eternal happiness. Good works done for God's sake, through Jesus Christ, are here noticed as marking the character of believers made holy by the Spirit of Christ, and as the effects of grace bestowed on those who do them." source. It's contrasting the righteousness that comes from Christ with the ungodly. It's not a statement of good works=salvation.
  • You're baffling. It says there, plainly, that those who don't feed the hungry and clothe the naked and heal the sick are going to eternal torment. These are wicked people, who are being judged for their sins. By contrast, the good who do feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and heal the sick, will logically get the opposite treatment:eternal bliss.
    tmajor wrote:
  • John 5:29. One can only do good deeds if one is in Christ. One can only do bad deeds if they are outside of Christ. Without Christ, our 'righteousness is as filthy rags'.
  • How convenient. Only those who have faith can do good works...and they will do good works...ergo, the "free gift" comes with a price. I respectfully disagree. I can, and do, do good works all the time, without your god.
    tmajor wrote:
  • Romans 2:6. The context is storing up wrath for the wicked, not general salvation. Another way to say what it says more understandably would probably be, 'because you didn't accept my forgiveness for each of your bad deeds, I will give you what you deserve according to your deeds, rather than my mercy and grace.'
  • The very next verse (if you wish to take things in context) says "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Nothing about accepting Jesus into your heart. You persist in doing good, and through that you seek glory, honour and immortality, and you'll get it. Nothing about asking for a deity to do anything, much less forgive you.
    tmajor wrote:
  • 2 Corinthians 5:10. See, everyone will have to stand before the throne of God in the future, believers and unbelievers alike. However, will God look at your own worthless "good works" or will God instead see Christ's finished work in you that paid for all your sin? That's what I think it's referring to here.
  • It specifically refers to "receiving what is due" for things done "while in the body". Nothing about what was in their hearts, but what they did. While we're at it...it's obvious that the omniscient lord is using works done by us to judge the content of our character. Why would he need to look there? He'd just know. Yet it says repeatedly (and you agreed) that good works are a sign of a good heart. Why would he have to look to the signs?
    tmajor wrote:
  • James 2:14. Even here it is not talking about salvation. Also, we must be careful with the word "save", because that has other connotations. Notice in this verse that he is talking to believers ("my brethren&quotEye-wink. To put it simply, this James passage is talking about what will necessarily be the result of salvation in a believer's life. They will necessarily do good works. It's not saying that good works=salvation, just that genuine salvation results in good works. Another point is that what would be the point of faith if one wasn't going to do anything about it? It's like if I say I love my dad, but then I don't show it in my actions and how I treat him. What was the point of me even saying it?
  • Well, it's long enough as it is Eye-wink. I'll respond to the last few verses later as I have time. I'll be back in a few days.

    This is a clever way to get out of this, but it won't fly. Faith without action is dead. That is the implication of the entire passage. In other words, faith alone is not enough for salvation. Faith AND works. You can't use this "faith leads to good works" thing, because that doesn't necessarily follow, unless you wish to commit a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

    I await your reply to the rest of them. 


    Vastet
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    tmajor wrote: Hi, my name

    tmajor wrote:

    Hi, my name is Tom, and I am the admin at RepentanceChallenge.com. I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

    Welcome Smiling

    tmajor wrote:

    My purpose in coming here is not to start arguments, although because of the nature of this discussion it may be hard to avoid. I am primarily here to uphold the truthfulness of God and His written word, the Bible.

    I think you will be challenged often.

    tmajor wrote:
    Also, not only will I argue for the existence of God, but I will argue that all religions are false (tom, you said what?!?). I will openly say that religion has caused much trouble throughout history, and the only hope for mankind is not religion, but relationship!

    Does this mean you will argue christianity is not a religion? Should be interesting if so.

    tmajor wrote:

    See a religion, in my eyes, is a belief system that says that man is the center of the universe (e.g. mankind makes the rules). This includes even so-called christianity that is not centered on the Bible (e.g. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc).

    What about the fact that the bible was written by men?

    tmajor wrote:
    Instead I will argue that having a personal relationship with our Creator (who is in charge, not us), as it is presented throughout the text of the Bible (and only the bible), is man's primary purpose.

    I would argue that mans primary purpose is survival, which extends to the purpose of all life.

    tmajor wrote:
    I will readily admit that I do not know everything, unlike some that I have seen in the RRS group that show great pride in their knowledge.

    Noone here thinks they know everything.

    tmajor wrote:
    Also, when confronted about some biblical or scientific issue that I am not aware of, I will simply say that I need to research it more. I will try to get back to comments as soon as possible, but I cannot reply to everything because of my busy schedule.

    I like that. Most theists respond right away and make even less sense than they did the first time round. An educated response is a preferred response.

    tmajor wrote:
    I will say right now that I will not respond to flaim baits or other such comments. They are just a waste of my time.

    Try and make sure you don't inadvertantly do the same. In my experience theists can be very insulting sometimes without intending to. It's been said the reverse is also true.

    tmajor wrote:
    BTW, you can see my initial response to the ABC debate on my blog: http://www.repentancechallenge.com/blog/2007/05/abc-nightline-god-challenge.html
    I hope to have more responses soon.

    In your blog you say:

    Quote:
    One rough spot in particular was when Brian/Kelly mentioned the laws of Thermodynamics supporting their claim about the universe always existing forever. They cited the law that says that matter cannot be created or destroyed and that it only changes form. Correct! However, they missed a minor detail; they used a law that works against their view, to support their view!

    It is very true that matter cannot create itself nor be destroyed, by the laws of the universe that we live in. However, this does not negate an outside force that is not bound by these laws. In other words, this outside force, otherwise known as God, created the laws themselves!

    This is an assertion without evidence. There's nothing to indicate the laws of physics were "created", and nothing to indicate an "outside force". There isn't even anything to indicate the universe could be created at all. You effectively say a lot of nothing.

    I apologize if this seems a little short tempered. I'd had a lighter response typed up and the PC I'm on decided to slap me. I'm not in quite as good a mood now. > >

    Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


    JCE
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    tmajor wrote: Hi, my name

    tmajor wrote:

    Hi, my name is Tom, and I am the admin at RepentanceChallenge.com. I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

    No thanks - I would probably end up biting my tongue and that hurts!

    tmajor wrote:
    My purpose in coming here is not to start arguments, although because of the nature of this discussion it may be hard to avoid. I am primarily here to uphold the truthfulness of God and His written word, the Bible. Also, not only will I argue for the existence of God, but I will argue that all religions are false (tom, you said what?!?).

    I think you said all religions are false.

    tmajor wrote:
    I will openly say that religion has caused much trouble throughout history, and the only hope for mankind is not religion, but relationship!

    Oh, except yours. I get it.

    tmajor wrote:
    See a religion, in my eyes, is a belief system that says that man is the center of the universe

    I could be wrong, but I think the psychological term for this is ego.

    tmajor wrote:
    (e.g. mankind makes the rules). This includes even so-called christianity that is not centered on the Bible (e.g. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc).

    "No True Scotsman"?

    tmajor wrote:
    Instead I will argue that having a personal relationship with our Creator (who is in charge, not us), as it is presented throughout the text of the Bible (and only the bible), is man's primary purpose.

    I already have personal relationships. They are with real people. And some of my other personalities, but that is another story.

    My real problem with this statement is that you are using the bible. I understand that you have to use it, but I could just as easily say the text of Dr. Seuss presents a good philosophy for life. I don't, but I could. At least with Dr. Seuss there is more than one writing.

    tmajor wrote:
    I will readily admit that I do not know everything, unlike some that I have seen in the RRS group that show great pride in their knowledge.

    And why shouldn't they? The people here have worked hard to gain that knowledge.

    tmajor wrote:
    Also, when confronted about some biblical or scientific issue that I am not aware of, I will simply say that I need to research it more.

    Excellent answer!!

    tmajor wrote:
    I will try to get back to comments as soon as possible, but I cannot reply to everything because of my busy schedule. I will say right now that I will not respond to flaim baits or other such comments. They are just a waste of my time.

    Aw, damn. Well, I hope you respond anyway.

    Ok, if everything you state is true, why do we need a personal relationship with god? Why not just a humanistic approach to life?


    totus_tuus
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    From my post in the thread

    From my post in the thread "Faith With or Without Works" in "Bible Errancy":

    I think the problem is, Serotnin, that you're reading these verses in isolation, instead of in the complete comtext of Scripture.  When viewed as a totality, the New Testament clearly teaches that faith plus works is the key to salvation.  Let's take a look at the Gospel of Matthew

    Chapters 5, 6, 7 cover the Sermon on the Mount.  I won't paste the passage here due to length, but I'll paraphrase instead.  Feel free to follow along in a Bible, if you have one handy.

    Jesus begins His discourse with the Beatitudes, telling us to be poor in spirit, meek, merciful, merciful, pure of heart and makers of peace.  Require any effort?  Yup.  It's work.

    He goes on to tell us to persevere in adversity, give alms, pray, and fast.  More work.

    He tells us to lay up heavenly treasure as opposed to earthly treasure.  Waht do you suppose haevenly treasure is?  I'd say our deeds.  Work?  Uh-huh.

    I could go on for another chapter and a half, but I think you get the point.

    Matt 19:16-22:  "16* * And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." 18* He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19* Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?" 21* Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions."  Couldn't bear the work of abandoning his worldly possessions.

    Matt 25:41-46:  "41* Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46* And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." No works, no Kingdom here.

    Now let's take a look at your cites from Paul.

    Ephesians 2:8-9: "8* For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast."  A standard and devastating cite for sola fide until you let Paul finish his thought in verse 10: "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."  Oh, there's that work thing again.

    Romans 10:9 could be damning too, but only if it's separated from verses 5-8:  "5* Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. 6* But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, "Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8* But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach); "   It would seem that Paul is talking about very limited works beong of no value here.  Which works are those?  The works of the Mosaic Law, ie dietary restrictions and circumcision. 

    Throughout his epistles, Paul compares Christian living to soldiering, athletic training, and running a race, all very strenuous pursuits, further emphasizing the demanding work laying ahead of Christians.

    James goes on to hammer the point home, penning the only verse in the Bible containing the words faith and alone in the same sentence Jas 2:24: "24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

    That's the only passage from James I'll cite, since you did so extensively in your post.  But, all those cites support faith plus.

    When taken in the context of a comprehensive teaching spread throughout the New Testament. it's plain to see that the clear position is faith plus works is salvation.

    "With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


    BenfromCanada
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    Am I getting an assist from

    Am I getting an assist from a theist? Holy crapburgers. This is like the Twilight Zone.


    Jacob Cordingley
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    tmajor wrote: I'm not

    tmajor wrote:

    I'm not saying get rid of all religion, the way you are defining the term, I'm just saying that we should get rid of the incorrect ones.

    So in effect all religion then.


    totus_tuus
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    BenfromCanada wrote: Am I

    BenfromCanada wrote:
    Am I getting an assist from a theist? Holy crapburgers. This is like the Twilight Zone.

    No problem Ben.  You hit the nail on the head.  And one of your your OT cites was actually a new one to me.  It may suurprise you to know that this teaching has been embraced by the Catholic Church for nearly 2000.

    I'll be happy to lend a hand when I agree with you.  LOL

    "With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


    Tyl3r04
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    Quote: Tmajor wrote: The

    Quote:

    Tmajor wrote:

    The Bible claims to be the word of God

    You can't use the bible to prove god and god to prove the bible.

    But in other words, welcome to the forums. Enjoy your stay. :] 

    "Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.


    FreeThoughtMake...
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    BGH wrote: tmajor wrote: I

    BGH wrote:

    tmajor wrote:
    I am a born-again, bible-believing, Jesus-worshipping, blood-bought, sanctified, seed-sowing, saved by grace not by works, child of God. Say that five times fast Eye-wink.

    You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

    You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

    You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

    You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

    You are a fairy tale believing, mythology reading, zombie worshipping, human sacrifice idolator, prideful, impregnator, deluded to believe to be chosen, child of a magic sky daddy.

     

    (I said it five times real fast, now what?)

     

     

     

    O____^  oh snap that was mean........yet hilarious. *waves index finger at you*

    Quote:
    Religion at BEST - is like a lift in your shoe. If you need it for a while, and it makes you walk straight and feel better - fine. But you don't need it forever, or you can become permanently disabled.

    ---George Carlin---


    Ghost of Amityville
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    todangst wrote: Just two

    todangst wrote:

    Just two points:

    1) What's the logic in creating a response to a challenge (the blasphemy challenge) that itself is a response to the majority viewpoint in the USA?

    I've been trying to figure out what the logic in creating the Blasphemy Challenge is when they merely have a subjective idea of blasphemy. It all seems that a masturbatory, misguided borefest, not unlike religion at times.

    I take pride in being a newb. I'm not all experienced and boring like the normies.


    Vastet
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    Ghost of Amityville

    Ghost of Amityville wrote:
    todangst wrote:

    Just two points:

    1) What's the logic in creating a response to a challenge (the blasphemy challenge) that itself is a response to the majority viewpoint in the USA?

    I've been trying to figure out what the logic in creating the Blasphemy Challenge is when they merely have a subjective idea of blasphemy. It all seems that a masturbatory, misguided borefest, not unlike religion at times.

    The challenge is more of an advertisement than anything. View it as a shout in the darkness to catch your attention and turn you towards the light. Once in the light, you can debate the matter without the challenge.

    Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


    Mattness
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    As I understand one of the

    As I understand it one of the main purposes of the Blasphemy Challenge is to "come out of the closed". Like, when you live in a very oppressive / christian neighborhood and you feel like shouting out your belief, when no one else understands you there.

    Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant


    BenfromCanada
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    totus_tuus

    totus_tuus wrote:

    BenfromCanada wrote:
    Am I getting an assist from a theist? Holy crapburgers. This is like the Twilight Zone.

    No problem Ben. You hit the nail on the head. And one of your your OT cites was actually a new one to me. It may suurprise you to know that this teaching has been embraced by the Catholic Church for nearly 2000.

    I'll be happy to lend a hand when I agree with you. LOL

    I'm not so surprised, actually, that the Catholic Church embraced this. They might be screwy in many, many ways, but at least they have the basic reading comprehension most other churches so sorely lack.

    So, I was out of town a week, and Tom hasn't replied to my challenge. Hm. 


    Susan
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    BenfromCanada wrote: So, I

    BenfromCanada wrote:

    So, I was out of town a week, and Tom hasn't replied to my challenge. Hm.

    Yeah.  Another hit-and-run theist poster.

    Sometimes I think they run away when they realize the folks around here are well-read, well-spoken and can discuss intelligently.  i suspect the hit-and-run types are more used to sheeple.

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    BenfromCanada
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    Susan wrote: BenfromCanada

    Susan wrote:
    BenfromCanada wrote:

    So, I was out of town a week, and Tom hasn't replied to my challenge. Hm.

    Yeah. Another hit-and-run theist poster.

    Sometimes I think they run away when they realize the folks around here are well-read, well-spoken and can discuss intelligently. i suspect the hit-and-run types are more used to sheeple.

    To be fair, he did say he'd be back in a few days to a week...over 2 weeks ago. I think another christian opposing his idea might have driven him away.


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    Good luck Tom.  I don't

    Good luck Tom.  I don't suspect you'll say anything new that hasn't been said before, but good luck all the same.


    tree-sitter
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    BenfromCanada wrote: Susan

    BenfromCanada wrote:
    Susan wrote:
    BenfromCanada wrote:

    So, I was out of town a week, and Tom hasn't replied to my challenge. Hm.

    Yeah. Another hit-and-run theist poster.

    Sometimes I think they run away when they realize the folks around here are well-read, well-spoken and can discuss intelligently. i suspect the hit-and-run types are more used to sheeple.

    To be fair, he did say he'd be back in a few days to a week...over 2 weeks ago. I think another christian opposing his idea might have driven him away.

     

    Yes, and that is a real bogus element about Christianity today. If we don't agree 100% about everything then we can't even be around each other. It's crap... thats why I don't go to church and spiritually stick to myself.

    But this bro does have it wrong on the whole faith without works thing. You are not saved by doing good works but, at the same time, you are not just saved by faith. Hitler said he was a Christian; by the faith without works idea, he could have gone to heaven just because he believed regardless of the millions of people he killed. If that was the truth then our religion really would be unjust. The plain and simple truth is that your works justify your faith. If you love the poor, care for the fatherless and work justice for the oppressed, then your faith means something. Otherwise, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

     

    No offense... but once again, the athiests understand this more then the Christians. ugg...


    BenfromCanada
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    tree-sitter wrote: Yes,

    tree-sitter wrote:

    Yes, and that is a real bogus element about Christianity today. If we don't agree 100% about everything then we can't even be around each other. It's crap... thats why I don't go to church and spiritually stick to myself.

    To be fair, you DID do this exact thing in another thread. Something like "why are you supporting the atheists" or something to another theist.

    tree-sitter wrote:
    But this bro does have it wrong on the whole faith without works thing. You are not saved by doing good works but, at the same time, you are not just saved by faith. Hitler said he was a Christian; by the faith without works idea, he could have gone to heaven just because he believed regardless of the millions of people he killed. If that was the truth then our religion really would be unjust. The plain and simple truth is that your works justify your faith. If you love the poor, care for the fatherless and work justice for the oppressed, then your faith means something. Otherwise, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
    That is the message of the bible.

     

    tree-sitter wrote:
    No offense... but once again, the athiests understand this more then the Christians. ugg...

    Are you willing to go on record saying this?


    tree-sitter
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    BenfromCanada

    BenfromCanada wrote:
    tree-sitter wrote:

    Yes, and that is a real bogus element about Christianity today. If we don't agree 100% about everything then we can't even be around each other. It's crap... thats why I don't go to church and spiritually stick to myself.

    To be fair, you DID do this exact thing in another thread. Something like "why are you supporting the atheists" or something to another theist.

    tree-sitter wrote:
    But this bro does have it wrong on the whole faith without works thing. You are not saved by doing good works but, at the same time, you are not just saved by faith. Hitler said he was a Christian; by the faith without works idea, he could have gone to heaven just because he believed regardless of the millions of people he killed. If that was the truth then our religion really would be unjust. The plain and simple truth is that your works justify your faith. If you love the poor, care for the fatherless and work justice for the oppressed, then your faith means something. Otherwise, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
    That is the message of the bible.

     

    tree-sitter wrote:
    No offense... but once again, the athiests understand this more then the Christians. ugg...

    Are you willing to go on record saying this?

     

    I must be mentally handicapped because I can not figure out how to write a message with your quote and then my response. How do you do that, lol...

     

    Anyways. You got me on your first response, lol. I was a little to harsh in my comments. However, it's not like I wouldn't want to talk to the guy just because we may disagree.

     

    Are you saying that the message of the bible is "faith without works is dead". If so, you are absolutely right and it further proves that some athiests know more about Christianity then most Christians.

     

    Didn't I already go on record? What did you have in mind with your question? I will say again, many atheists know the bible better then most Christians. I think the problem with Christianity is that we go into churchs that tell us what to think rather then letting us have a mind for ourselves. People need to read the bible for themselves and think for themselves. It is true, however, that both sides pick and choose from the bible to prove there points of either support for religion and the desention of it. Do you agree?


    Brian37
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    "I don't know everything

    "I don't know everything BUT, I got it right and everyone else got it wrong." Not a good way to make an introduction.

    We'd love for you to stay, but make no illusions to yourself about what we do here. There is a "kill em with kindness section" it is up to you if you want to stay there or not. But in any other section you do have to realize that you are a visitor, not a mod or owner.

    We love to see people handle blasphemy and take a stab at defending their claims. What does not go over well here is preaching or whining. If you can avoid those things you'll do well.

    "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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    Cassiopeia will be playing

    Cassiopeia will be playing the role of Tom in this episode...

     

    Insert standard theist reply here: Let's go with morality, that one seems popular around here.

    "How do you have moral values without...blah...blah...blah...god...blah...bible...What? Already been refuted? Really? Hell, then I'm gone."

     

    I suck at signatures.


    Susan
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    tree-sitter wrote: I must

    tree-sitter wrote:

    I must be mentally handicapped because I can not figure out how to write a message with your quote and then my response. How do you do that, lol...

    Nah.  Lots of people have a hard time with it.

    I've written a tutorial about the Quote Function and you can find it here.  

    Enjoy!

     

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    thraxas
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    Quote: This includes even

    Quote:
    This includes even so-called christianity that is not centered on the Bible (e.g. Catholicism, Mormonism, etc).

    LOL. Please put away your no true scotsman. And um Catholicism isn't centered on the Bible? I beg to differ. They generally have the most learned Bibilcal scholars.

     

    Quote:
    I will readily admit that I do not know everything, unlike some that I have seen in the RRS group that show great pride in their knowledge.

    This is another great one. So you value ignorance over knowledge? That sums up your position right there. 

     

    Biochemist & Law Student

    "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." -Thomas Jefferson


    Susan
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    I note that ol' Tom from

    I note that ol' Tom from the Repentance Challenge hasn't bothered to come back since his first and only day here.

    HHmm.  I wonder if his only reason for coming here was to post a link  to that silliness.

    *taps finger on temple*

    Yup, that's what he was doing. 

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    lpetrich
    lpetrich's picture
    Posts: 148
    Joined: 2007-05-14
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    I've seen lots of drive-by

    I've seen lots of drive-by preachers over at the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. They start threads with lengthy posts full of preaching, yet they are often too busy to answer critical questions, and they whine about how everybody is ganging up on them, as if they expected otherwise of a place like IIDB

    I am reminded of how Roman Emperor and philosopher Marcus Aurelius described that he had learned from Alexander the Platonist

    Quote:
    Not to be constantly telling people (or writing them) that I'm too busy, unless I really am. Similarly, not to be always ducking my responsibilities to the people around me because of "pressing business."

    Also, his claim not to be following a religion is a remarkable fundie absurdity: using "religion" as a dirty word.