Yes, there is fear of hell...

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Yes, there is fear of hell...

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly.

Anyone can say "I am a Christian"...but Jesus said:

 

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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Well then, looks like

Well then, looks like you're going to hell. I mean you can be forgiven for anything except blaspheming the holy spirit. I mean, I guess they're just a bit petty up there. No hope now. Sorry.

Y'know, there's probably no point being Christian because God clearly won't forgive you.

Alternatively none of it exists. Hmmmm. I wonder...


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So, serious question... 

So, serious question...  Since you've blasphemed the holy spirit, and are going to hell, are you just hoping that god will break the rules for you and let you into heaven because you're a good person, or are you hoping that he wasn't telling the truth about blaspheming the holy spirit?  Or, I guess the most likely thing is, you're hoping that people didn't write down god's words correctly.  Is that what you hope?  (There's nothing in the bible that says only Christians that blaspheme the holy spirit are unforgivable, you know!  It says "anyone.&quotEye-wink

Suppose that the bible didn't get the part about blaspheming the holy spirit right.  How do you feel about god knowing that he would let people include such a bad error in his word so that you have to worry about going to hell?  If he's all powerful, couldn't he have thrown you a bone and maybe not allowed that little error to make it into the bible?

Actually, I'm putting way too many words into your mouth.  I'm genuinely interested in knowing how you feel about being condemned to hell.

 

 

 

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tracifish

tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly...

Do you think being tortured forever is an appropriate punishment for "blasphemy"?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Hambydammit wrote: So,

Hambydammit wrote:

So, serious question... Since you've blasphemed the holy spirit, and are going to hell, are you just hoping that god will break the rules for you and let you into heaven because you're a good person, or are you hoping that he wasn't telling the truth about blaspheming the holy spirit? Or, I guess the most likely thing is, you're hoping that people didn't write down god's words correctly. Is that what you hope? (There's nothing in the bible that says only Christians that blaspheme the holy spirit are unforgivable, you know! It says "anyone.&quotEye-wink

Suppose that the bible didn't get the part about blaspheming the holy spirit right. How do you feel about god knowing that he would let people include such a bad error in his word so that you have to worry about going to hell? If he's all powerful, couldn't he have thrown you a bone and maybe not allowed that little error to make it into the bible?

Actually, I'm putting way too many words into your mouth. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how you feel about being condemned to hell.

 

 

 

 

I have been told, that if it bothers me...I have not committed the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit....but could it be that I care...because I do not want to go to hell? 


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AiiA wrote:

AiiA wrote:
tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly...

Do you think being tortured forever is an appropriate punishment for "blasphemy"?

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.


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tracifish wrote: AiiA

tracifish wrote:
AiiA wrote:
tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly...

Do you think being tortured forever is an appropriate punishment for "blasphemy"?

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

Traci, I want you to understand that there's not a hint of sarcasm or condescension, or anything else in what I'm about to say. I'm completely serious.

I feel very, very sorry for you. The fact that you believe your god is justified for torturing you forever for saying "God Damn" is why this website exists, and why I think religion is so horrible. If you have chilren, can you imagine what it would take for you to condemn them to even a year of torture for saying words? Any words! The worst words you can think of!! Would you send them to Guantanamo (oh... sorry.. we don't torture people...) I mean... Iraq to be tortured by Islamic extremists? What kind of horrible person would you have to be?

And yet, you believe in a god who loves you and is going to do that to you.

I know it's hard for some of the theists here to imagine that we atheists are real people, but I'm very sad for you.  This whole thread has me genuinely depressed.

 

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I always wondered what

Yeah. Once you accept eternal damnation as 'righteous' you give up all morality in favour of submission to a big bully, and anyone who convinces you that they speak for this bully will control you.

On the subject of Christians and which self-proclaimed ones make it, I always wondered what Capitalist Fundies would make of this passage:

Matthew25:31-46 wrote:

The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


The look on their face when they find out that how much they shouted his name was irrelevent! Having said that, I'm so lazy that I'd probably burn with them for similar charges of negligence!


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The Holy Spirit can suck my

The Holy Spirit can suck my willy. Well actually it can't because it's "supernatural" but you get my point.

This will really screw me over if in the extremely unlikely event that I become Christian in later life! But y'know what. I don't care. Bring on hell!


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Quote: Yes. If He were to

Quote:
Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

Why?


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Jacob Cordingley wrote: The

Jacob Cordingley wrote:
The Holy Spirit can suck my willy.

You'd better hope that God's a 'she' now! Wink


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tracifish wrote: Yes. If

tracifish wrote:

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

IF god were real, which i don't believe for a second, he abandoned his "right" to do anything to you the instant he granted free will. IF he is real, when you die and go to stand before the pearly gates for judgement, if god condemns you for "blasphemy", give him the finger. 

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tracifish

tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago.

Just FYI, it was fear of hell that kept me a theist for a long time.  Eventually I realized that is among the reasons there is a hell doctrine -- to keep you in line!   Is that "love"?

Oh, and just to be sure I've blasphemed sufficiently:  I've seen the Holy Spirit butt-fuck Jesus Christ while JC sucked His Father's dick. Just say that a few times, and, you will be "free" in the sense that you can know that whatever will be, will be, and no point worrying about it anymore.

 


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tracifish

tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly.

Anyone can say "I am a Christian"...but Jesus said:

 

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So you need to live under threat of having the crap beat out of you forever? I dont find that appealing at all. 

I think it takes much more strenght to do something without being threatened or bribed. Since when did coaxing teach anyone anything but how to be lead by the nose?

Ok, let me understand this? I get a cookie if I say, "I love you" even if I dont. Or I get the crap beat out of me forever if I say, "Hey I dont want to be part of your club".

Thats not love, that is emotional blackmail.

If love is freely given, then I should not be burned forever merely for dying without belief in a deity.

If my punishment is burning in hell for not kissing the butt of Jesus, that would be like sticking someone in the gillotine for jaywalking.

I dont need a disimbodied voice to tell me not to rob my neihbor. I dont need stories about talking bushes or zombie gods who rise after 3 days, to tell me not to molest little children. I dont need stories about magical dirt turning into bone to tell me that raping a woman is wrong.

If that belief in fiction stops you, be my guest, we dont need more criminals in the world, we have enough all ready.

 

 

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:
tracifish wrote:
AiiA wrote:
tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly...

Do you think being tortured forever is an appropriate punishment for "blasphemy"?

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

Traci, I want you to understand that there's not a hint of sarcasm or condescension, or anything else in what I'm about to say. I'm completely serious.

I feel very, very sorry for you. The fact that you believe your god is justified for torturing you forever for saying "God Damn" is why this website exists, and why I think religion is so horrible. If you have chilren, can you imagine what it would take for you to condemn them to even a year of torture for saying words? Any words! The worst words you can think of!! Would you send them to Guantanamo (oh... sorry.. we don't torture people...) I mean... Iraq to be tortured by Islamic extremists? What kind of horrible person would you have to be?

And yet, you believe in a god who loves you and is going to do that to you.

I know it's hard for some of the theists here to imagine that we atheists are real people, but I'm very sad for you. This whole thread has me genuinely depressed.

 

I hear what you're saying....and also know that atheists are real people....since most of my life I have been an agnostic/atheist/universalist...depending on my mood.

If the God of the bible does not exist...I would also think it is sad that theists are afraid of going to hell.

I would never sentence my child to torture...but according to Christianity...it is something like this:

If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence.

 


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Quote: If I throw an egg at

Quote:
If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence.

Well, traci, I could show you that this is a false analogy, and could get into an argument about it, but here's my question, and I'd like you to answer it from the bottom of your heart.  (Remember, if there's a god, he knows the answer anyway, so if you say it, it's not like there's anything new for god's ears, right?)

How do you feel about it?  If you were going to be god, would you set things up that way?  So that just by uttering two little words, someone would be tortured for billions of years before they get tortured for billions more years?  Skin burning off of their supernatural flesh for eternity, screaming and wondering what it was they did to deserve it, when they tried to be a good person all their life, but they just said two little words once!?

Please, please don't just answer by saying you're not god.  That's a cop out.  I want to know how you feel about it.

 

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tracifish wrote: AiiA

tracifish wrote:
AiiA wrote:
tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly...

Do you think being tortured forever is an appropriate punishment for "blasphemy"?

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

That is one fucked-up god you worship.  Even I, with my limited morality would not send someone to hell forever for any reason. 

At one point in my young life, I thought I had committed the unforgivable sin and it ate away at my happiness.  I wasn't sure whether or not I had committed the unforgivable sin.

Being a Christian ate away at my happiness.  I was afraid of going to hell and I was afraid the people I loved would go to hell.  What a sucky belief system. Sad

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When you're little, going to

When you're little, going to little religious camps, they always tell you "God loves you no matter what, God loves everyone!"
I now see that that is a load of crap.

If you seriously think that you're going to hell for saying that... Why worry your whole life now? If there isn't a god and you spent your whole life worrying about going to hell... Well you kinda wasted your life dontcha think?


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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence.

Well, traci, I could show you that this is a false analogy, and could get into an argument about it, but here's my question, and I'd like you to answer it from the bottom of your heart. (Remember, if there's a god, he knows the answer anyway, so if you say it, it's not like there's anything new for god's ears, right?)

I don't like it...at all. He already knows what's in my heart, and He knows I do not like it...and do not completely understand it. 

How do you feel about it? If you were going to be god, would you set things up that way? So that just by uttering two little words, someone would be tortured for billions of years before they get tortured for billions more years? Skin burning off of their supernatural flesh for eternity, screaming and wondering what it was they did to deserve it, when they tried to be a good person all their life, but they just said two little words once!?

Please, please don't just answer by saying you're not god. That's a cop out. I want to know how you feel about it.

 


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tracifish wrote: If I

tracifish wrote:

If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence. 

Actually, some people did throw eggs at the president's car at the first inauguration of Emperor Bunnypants.  And you know what?  I don't condemn them.  Compared to the crimes of George W. Bush, throwing eggs at his car was nothing.  He got into office using dubious means.  (Check out who interrupted the recount.) He lied us into war.  He set up illegal wiretapping.  He outed a CIA agent.  He fired US attorneys for political reasons...ad nauseum.

I wonder...what happened to the people who threw eggs at the president's car?  I never saw it on the news.  I only knew it happened because I seek news other than that portrayed by the corporate media, which for some reason, didn't want it to be known that someone threw eggs at the president's car.  What happened to the people who threw eggs at the president's car?  At one point, I would have wanted them fined.  At this point, when it seems we have no legal recourse for change...well, hand me a fucking egg!

(Yes, I'm going somewhere with this.)

So, suppose there was another self-righteous bully, a supernatural, omniscient, omnipotent self-righteous bully.  Suppose this bully did much worse things than Pretzeldent Bush.  Suppose this bully flooded the entire world except for one family.  Suppose this bully commanded genocide.  Suppose this bully tortured people forever if they blasphemed against him.  Wouldn't you want to throw eggs at his car? Did you already, metaphorically, throw eggs at his car by blaspheming the holy spirit?  What do you think such a tyrant would do to you?

There is at least one major flaw to this analogy.  I am pretty sure I can prove George W. Bush exists. Thank GOD the supernatural self-righteous bully DOES NOT. 

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Quote: Quote: If I throw

Quote:
Quote:
If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence.
I think the finite being would have more justification at retaliation than an "all powerfull " being.
What if that finite being spent 40,000 grand on a paint job and you ruined it?
However, shouldnt an all powerfull being have an understanding that you dont know what it knows? Shouldnt that be cause for more compassion, not less?
So, because I had no choice when my mom and dad screwed each other I owe God something? How exactly was my being born a choice(if we are to assume a deity did it).
If the president was condoning slavery, would you simply obey him? Well, he is the leader of our country.At one point our presidents did own slaves. Shoud those back then not throw eggs(criticism)?
Is that the way you feel about your deity? He gave you life so you owe him something? How sick is it to blindly worship without question.
If god asked you to kill me, would you?(hypothetical) 

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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:

 Did you already, metaphorically, throw eggs at his car by blaspheming the holy spirit? What do you think such a tyrant would do to you?

That's what I want to know. 

{FIXED}


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Brian37

Brian37 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence.
I think the finite being would have more justification at retaliation than an "all powerfull " being.
What if that finite being spent 40,000 grand on a paint job and you ruined it?
However, shouldnt an all powerfull being have an understanding that you dont know what it knows? Shouldnt that be cause for more compassion, not less?
So, because I had no choice when my mom and dad screwed each other I owe God something? How exactly was my being born a choice(if we are to assume a deity did it).
If the president was condoning slavery, would you simply obey him? Well, he is the leader of our country.At one point our presidents did own slaves. Shoud those back then not throw eggs(criticism)?
Is that the way you feel about your deity? He gave you life so you owe him something? How sick is it to blindly worship without question.
If god asked you to kill me, would you?(hypothetical)

 

All of these posts have good questions (except for the blasphemy parts) ...I can't keep up with all this! 

If God asked me to kill you, I would not do it....because there would be no way for me to believe it is God. Not the God of the bible. While it is true He did command Israel to kill people, it was a theocracy...and the bible says we will not have another theocracy until Christ returns....and Christians that have died...or were raptured return with Him.

The bible says that He won't command with a voice....or add anything new to the bible. So I can be certain that He will not be commanding us to kil anybody. If anyone does...I will know it is an impersonator....like whoever Allah is.  


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Quote: That's what I want

Quote:
That's what I want to know.

I'll tell you. You have. Just by reading, or watching the Blasphemy Challenge, that image, the "fine print" of the words have already formed in your thought, and one side of your lower consciousness has already substituted you in the place of the real writer/speaker of those words. It's just how the brain works. But we couldn't ask so much from the Bronze-Age tribesmen that wrote the Bible to know that, can we?

It's a state of the mind, just like one of the commandments: thou shalt not covet. Physically, it's perfectly applicable. Mentally, it is impossible.

To demonstrate: try NOT to think of a purple flamingo. Did you think about it? Well, there you go...

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tracifish wrote:

tracifish wrote:
Iruka Naminori wrote:

Did you already, metaphorically, throw eggs at his car by blaspheming the holy spirit? What do you think such a tyrant would do to you?

That's what I want to know.

traci, maybe I should be asking you a different question: Why do you believe in the god of the bible?

When I was deconverting, I used to have nightmares. I woke up with a scream on my lips more than once, in the middle of a dream about the rapture. I was either being left behind or on the verge of being cast into hell.

This was NOT fun. Sad

After a few years of this and the death of my niece, I started asking myself if a benevolent god would wish such suffering upon me.

The riddle of Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.  Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.  Is he both able and willing?  Then whence cometh evil?  Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" 

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Quote: If God asked me to

Quote:

If God asked me to kill you, I would not do it....because there would be no way for me to believe it is God. Not the God of the bible. While it is true He did command Israel to kill people, it was a theocracy...and the bible says we will not have another theocracy until Christ returns....and Christians that have died...or were raptured return with Him.

The bible says that He won't command with a voice....or add anything new to the bible. So I can be certain that He will not be commanding us to kil anybody. If anyone does...I will know it is an impersonator....like whoever Allah is.

It strikes me that there's a soup in a theist's head about religions alltogether. Allah isn't the "bad guy" in the story, it's actually the "good guy" of Islam. According to Christianity, he doesn't exist. According to Islam, Yahweh (or God) doesn't exist as well.

There are numerous questions to be asked even considering what you posted.

1. If there would be no more theocracy until Christ returns, could you please explain where, for example, the Inquisition came from? Also, a theocracy on Israel, in case you haven't realized, would be a simply insignificant... something there on the face of the earth. By the time the Jews discovered their Jesus, there were numerous other nations and cultures far more populated and advanced. Also, please tell us where that "no more theocracy until Christ returns" comes from? I don't remember finding that in the Bible.

2. A theocracy doesn't necessarily mean murdering people. And even if it does, it certainly doesn't mean murdering people "just because they were in the way", like the Jews did, according to the Bible (and to be frank, I'm not exactly sure that actually ever happened). So that excuse is... well... no excuse

3. What if Satan was the one that "inspired" the Bible, to lead us to a false belief, punishable by Hell ? Can you discount that possibility? Because, considering the sheer stupidity of some verses and the extreme cruelty of others, this is actually a very significant possibility.

4. But of course, it didn't happen that way (what I said at 3), did it? No, it didn't. Because the Bible was neither wrote, nor even "inspired" by a god. The Bible, as we currently see it, is the product of years of filtration and discussions on the matter. Just study about the Councils, especially the first and the second ones at Nicaea. Yes, it was written and hand-picked by humans.

Homework: answer these.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


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Hagane Kakashi wrote: When

Hagane Kakashi wrote:
When you're little, going to little religious camps, they always tell you "God loves you no matter what, God loves everyone!"
I now see that that is a load of crap.

If you seriously think that you're going to hell for saying that... Why worry your whole life now? If there isn't a god and you spent your whole life worrying about going to hell... Well you kinda wasted your life dontcha think?

I did go to a "5-day club" once....but can't call it a camp...since we didn't stat over-night...or have a tent...or a camp-fire. They might have said that Jesus loves us no matter what. The Sunday-school at mt friend's lutheran church did.

If there is no forgiveness left for me...then there's nothing left to do...but if there is...I want it. 


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Rigor_OMortis

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

Quote:

If God asked me to kill you, I would not do it....because there would be no way for me to believe it is God. Not the God of the bible. While it is true He did command Israel to kill people, it was a theocracy...and the bible says we will not have another theocracy until Christ returns....and Christians that have died...or were raptured return with Him.

The bible says that He won't command with a voice....or add anything new to the bible. So I can be certain that He will not be commanding us to kil anybody. If anyone does...I will know it is an impersonator....like whoever Allah is.

It strikes me that there's a soup in a theist's head about religions alltogether. Allah isn't the "bad guy" in the story, it's actually the "good guy" of Islam. According to Christianity, he doesn't exist. According to Islam, Yahweh (or God) doesn't exist as well.

There are numerous questions to be asked even considering what you posted.

1. If there would be no more theocracy until Christ returns, could you please explain where, for example, the Inquisition came from? Also, a theocracy on Israel, in case you haven't realized, would be a simply insignificant... something there on the face of the earth. By the time the Jews discovered their Jesus, there were numerous other nations and cultures far more populated and advanced. Also, please tell us where that "no more theocracy until Christ returns" comes from? I don't remember finding that in the Bible.

2. A theocracy doesn't necessarily mean murdering people. And even if it does, it certainly doesn't mean murdering people "just because they were in the way", like the Jews did, according to the Bible (and to be frank, I'm not exactly sure that actually ever happened). So that excuse is... well... no excuse

3. What if Satan was the one that "inspired" the Bible, to lead us to a false belief, punishable by Hell ? Can you discount that possibility? Because, considering the sheer stupidity of some verses and the extreme cruelty of others, this is actually a very significant possibility.

4. But of course, it didn't happen that way (what I said at 3), did it? No, it didn't. Because the Bible was neither wrote, nor even "inspired" by a god. The Bible, as we currently see it, is the product of years of filtration and discussions on the matter. Just study about the Councils, especially the first and the second ones at Nicaea. Yes, it was written and hand-picked by humans.

Homework: answer these.

Okay. I'm working on it now.  


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tracifish wrote: I did go

tracifish wrote:

I did go to a "5-day club" once....but can't call it a camp...since we didn't stat over-night...or have a tent...or a camp-fire. They might have said that Jesus loves us no matter what. The Sunday-school at mt friend's lutheran church did.

If there is no forgiveness left for me...then there's nothing left to do...but if there is...I want it.

Traci, I feel really badly for you because I've been where you are and it was agony.  I edited my above post to include some information about how I used to have nightmares about going to hell.

I am now free from those nightmares.  And if I require forgiveness, I know that I require it not from some vindictive god, but from the people around me.  There is life and hope after religion, but for those of us who have been indoctrinated, getting rid of the fear of hell is a huge problem.

The fear of hell had been so ingrained in me that I feared it even after I had logically concluded the god of the bible does not exist.  Emotional "knowledge" takes longer than intellectual knowledge for some reason.  Maybe todangst couldn't explain why.  All I know is it has been true for me.

You know what got rid of my fear of hell?  I came to realize how ridiculous the whole idea is.  I came onto a forum (not this one, but one where the people realized how ridiculous the idea of hell is) and used my intellect to mock the god of the bible, Christianity, the idea of hell, the idea of heaven.  And I laughed about it. 

Humor is the ultimate tool against fear.  

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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:
tracifish wrote:

I did go to a "5-day club" once....but can't call it a camp...since we didn't stat over-night...or have a tent...or a camp-fire. They might have said that Jesus loves us no matter what. The Sunday-school at mt friend's lutheran church did.

If there is no forgiveness left for me...then there's nothing left to do...but if there is...I want it.

Traci, I feel really badly for you because I've been where you are and it was agony. I edited my above post to include some information about how I used to have nightmares about going to hell.

I am now free from those nightmares. And if I require forgiveness, I know that I require it not from some vindictive god, but from the people around me. There is life and hope after religion, but for those of us who have been indoctrinated, getting rid of the fear of hell is a huge problem.

The fear of hell had been so ingrained in me that I feared it even after I had logically concluded the god of the bible does not exist. Emotional "knowledge" takes longer than intellectual knowledge for some reason. Maybe todangst couldn't explain why. All I know is it has been true for me.

You know what got rid of my fear of hell? I came to realize how ridiculous the whole idea is. I came onto a forum (not this one, but one where the people realized how ridiculous the idea of hell is) and used my intellect to mock the god of the bible, Christianity, the idea of hell, the idea of heaven. And I laughed about it.

Humor is the ultimate tool against fear.

I'm like an upsidedown version of you. If you were to read your post from the last sentence to the first...you would sound like me.  


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Rigor_OMortis

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

Quote:
That's what I want to know.

I'll tell you. You have. Just by reading, or watching the Blasphemy Challenge, that image, the "fine print" of the words have already formed in your thought, and one side of your lower consciousness has already substituted you in the place of the real writer/speaker of those words. It's just how the brain works. But we couldn't ask so much from the Bronze-Age tribesmen that wrote the Bible to know that, can we?

It's a state of the mind, just like one of the commandments: thou shalt not covet. Physically, it's perfectly applicable. Mentally, it is impossible.

To demonstrate: try NOT to think of a purple flamingo. Did you think about it? Well, there you go...

Sometimes, we have blasphemous thoughts...but the bible says that Christians are to turn them over to Christ...or to take our thoughts in captivity to Him...and He will forgive us.

I'm still working on the homework you gave me...while playing Hangman with people who don't seem to understand the concept of Hangman....and am doing all this on a dial-up. 


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Rigor_OMortis

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

Quote:
1. If there would be no more theocracy until Christ returns, could you please explain where, for example, the Inquisition came from?
Rome. It was just Rome being Rome again.
Quote:
Also, a theocracy on Israel, in case you haven't realized, would be a simply insignificant... something there on the face of the earth. By the time the Jews discovered their Jesus, there were numerous other nations and cultures far more populated and advanced.
God chose Israel...and from the line of Jacob, he prophecied the Messiah would come. He made a promise to Abraham and also to Moses. Well, he made Messianic promises all through the o.t. and it is through Israel that we have the word of God. He likes to use small and seemingly insignificant things. It wouldn't be as amazing, had he used a super-power...like Rome. Okay. That was only the first question. I'll be working on the second one...


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Rigor O Mortis, I skipped a

Rigor O Mortis, I skipped a question...but am still working on it. Here's what I have on the next one:

Quote:
2. A theocracy doesn't necessarily mean murdering people. And even if it does, it certainly doesn't mean murdering people "just because they were in the way",
Yes. I agree.
Quote:
like the Jews did, according to the Bible...
God commanded that they kill some people...not because they were in the way...but because of their destructiveness. According to the bible, we are ALL evil, by nature...even Israel was. But Israel was His chosen nation...and He ordered Israel to kill anyone that would wipe out their line...as many are trying to do...to this day.
Quote:
(and to be frank, I'm not exactly sure that actually ever happened).
It did not, completely. Israel disobeyed many times...as I'm sure we would have...had it been us...or I would have, anyway. Who wants to kill a bunch of people? As evil as we are...we still do not like the idea of killing. well, some do...but, mostly, killing bothers people.


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Hey Traci!  Like the

Hey Traci!  Like the others, I am concerned for you.  As far as your immediate worry, though, I think the fact that you do believe now trumps anything that happened before.

I will, however, encourage you to question anything that mandates that level of fear and causes you to question who you are.  With or without Christianity, you are most likely a very good person who knows right from wrong; love from hate so please remember that.

 Also, please continue to read these threads and educate yourself on the history of the bible.  Those stories are not grounded in fact so your fears are unfounded.


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tracifish wrote: AiiA

tracifish wrote:
AiiA wrote:
Do you think being tortured forever is an appropriate punishment for "blasphemy"?

Yes. If He were to send me to hell, He would be right in so doing.

Would you throw your children into a tub of burning gasoline and oil and cover it with meshed wire so they couldn't get out for simply insulting you? And, if you could keep them alive so they'd have to endure it for the rest of their natural lives, would you feel justified in doing that? And could you stay in the same room and listen to them cry and scream in agony or would you leave and try to forget about them?

That's what you're saying your god would be right in doing, not just to you, but to everyone and you seem to have no problem with it.


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Seriously, JCE is right. We

Seriously, JCE is right. We are concerned for you. Look, I'm going to be quite blunt. You are not going to hell!! It is fiction. You're not going to heaven either. Nor purgatory or Limbo or whatever the hell there is between, nor is your spirit going to haunt the earth. Your body is going to go into the ground, it will be eaten by worms and bacteria and new life will flourish because of your lack of life. This life is for living, not for fearing the next (which will not actually happen). Live, blaspheme, have fun but do not harm anyone and you'll have a life worth living.


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Straight to the heart of

Straight to the heart of the matter; is hell as a place for eternal punishment even a biblical concept? Or is it merely one way currupted church leaders used to control their congregations to ensure themselves power?

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

 

This essay (written by a christian) explains in some length how hell is not in the OT at all, and the very limited mentions of hell in the NT can be discredited. 

This essay has most focus on the history of biblical translation. If you must believe, please dont live with unfounded fear as well. Too much of a waste. 


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tracifish, I'm going to say

tracifish, I'm going to say this straight: You're ****ed up. I too was afraid of God and his unsurpassed powers once. I knew he could squash me like a bug if he wanted.

 So here's what you must do: Stop this madness. Let go of your God delusion. It only makes your life more miserable. There is no victory in living in fear of a non-existent god. No, you will not go to hell, nor heaven, because neither exists.

It is time for you to do what many people do when they are converted, except this time you do this completely the opposite:

Deny the existence of Jesus Christ. Tell to yourself that he didn't die for our sins, and he wasn't the son of God.

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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I've never been able to

I've never been able to twist my brain around the concept of a supreme being having such petty immaturity as to torture people eternally simply for acts committed that were wrong even though they didn't know they were wrong. Might be different if most of the morals claimed to be absolute didn't need to be taught. But they need to be taught, so they're not absolute. An all powerful creator would have made absolute morality....absolute.

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I was raised as a Jehovah's

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. They don't believe in hell, but they're convinced the rapture (armageddon) is just around the corner. Do you know the funny thing? They've been saying it's just around the corner for over a hundred years! And it's the same with all these other doomsday cults - sorry, I mean religions. Just look back at the history of the one you're in- the rapture isn't a new idea, every generation thinks they are the ones who will experience it, every generation has been wrong. We're just the latest generation to be told these lies, in order to keep us in the cults, sorry, religions.


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I see three interpretaions

I see three interpretaions of god.  I have yet to decide which is true.

 

Either he exists, and mankind has corrupted his word, twisting it towards their own favour. The original message is lost in all the contradicting crap the bible has puked forth of generations of corrupted popes and various holy men.

 

Or he does not exist, and the same above argument still holds.

 

Or he does exist, and he is as wicked as the Bible portrays him. We live in an age of freedom, yet we are all slaves under the Divine Dictator. 

 

If you have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit, then there is truely no salvation. Yet the bible says all sins can be forgiven. More contradiction. But they looked rather specific on that part. Because you have performed such an evil act. Think with your own brain for just one second. You've said a couple of words. Put yourself in a mindset. You have changed now you say? Yet morality is not black and white as the bible tries to portray it. What have you ever done to deserve eternal suffering? Well, nothing(I think?). Oh wait, you have done one thing. Rejecting his dominance over you. That's what you do when you deny the holy spirit. 

 

So because you declare yoursself a free person, no matter the all the kind and good things you might have done in your life, you will suffer eternal torture. You could have been the kindest person alive, who helped thousands. A hero among men. But deny his "holy righteousness" and you get sent to hell for eternity.

With all these things in mind, is he really worth the worship? For he is not as kind as you might think.

Residential Swedish Moth


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Traci...I know I'm gonna

Traci...I know I'm gonna get shouted down by this bunch in their efforts to convert you, but I have to tell you that there are no limits to the mercy of God, but that anyone who deliberatley refuses to accept His mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Spirit. 

I dunno what your particular "blasphemy" was, nor do I care, there is no sin which cannot be forgiven save the belief that one's sin cannot be forgiven by God.  I can tell you don't meet that criteria, so you're quite alright.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus

totus_tuus wrote:

Traci...I know I'm gonna get shouted down by this bunch in their efforts to convert you, but I have to tell you that there are no limits to the mercy of God, but that anyone who deliberatley refuses to accept His mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Spirit.

I dunno what your particular "blasphemy" was, nor do I care, there is no sin which cannot be forgiven save the belief that one's sin cannot be forgiven by God. I can tell you don't meet that criteria, so you're quite alright.

We are not doing anything  "deliberate". We are being honest with ourselves. For the same reason we reject Apollo pulling the sun across the sky with a Chariot, we reject claims of multiple armed deties and 3 day old dead flesh surviving rigor mortis.

On the other hand some people "deliberately" chose to believe that rubbing the belly of a fat statue will bring them good luck. Some people "deliberately" ignore the fact that bone doesnt "POOF" magically turn into flesh. Some people "deliberately" put a triangle over a lettered board in hopes of speeking to the dead.

If you think "deliberately" believing in a myth because it makes you feel good is good "Just because", then you are "deliberately" ignoring reality. I dont think that is good. 

We have herd all the claims of "God's mercy" an they are no different than the claims of "Allah's mercy" and you might as well incert "Vishnu's mercy" or "Thor's mercy".

A claim is a claim and that is all you have and you are in the same boat as all the other deity claims. So spare us from the "It's not too late" condesention.

We are not lost puppies in need of adoption and no one asked you to save us. You want your god to be real. Making a claim doesnt make it so any more than if I claimed Allah was real.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote: We are not

Brian37 wrote:

We are not doing anything  "deliberate". We are being honest with ourselves. For the same reason we reject Apollo pulling the sun across the sky with a Chariot, we reject claims of multiple armed deties and 3 day old dead flesh surviving rigor mortis.

On the other hand some people "deliberately" chose to believe that rubbing the belly of a fat statue will bring them good luck. Some people "deliberately" ignore the fact that bone doesnt "POOF" magically turn into flesh. Some people "deliberately" put a triangle over a lettered board in hopes of speeking to the dead.

If you think "deliberately" believing in a myth because it makes you feel good is good "Just because", then you are "deliberately" ignoring reality. I dont think that is good. 

We have herd all the claims of "God's mercy" an they are no different than the claims of "Allah's mercy" and you might as well incert "Vishnu's mercy" or "Thor's mercy".

A claim is a claim and that is all you have and you are in the same boat as all the other deity claims. So spare us from the "It's not too late" condesention.

We are not lost puppies in need of adoption and no one asked you to save us. You want your god to be real. Making a claim doesnt make it so any more than if I claimed Allah was real.

Mr. Burns is an excellent representation for you...you're a cranky one.  LOL

I would never presume to condescend to you, Brian.  You're far too rational to be taken in by a dleuded old theist like myself.  I did read in this thread, though, the suffering of another and thought I might present the opposing view for her consideration.

Believe me when I say that I have no need to adopt any lost puppies, I've got enough of my own running around here already. 

Traci - one point I don't think I was very clear on is that the true sin against the Holy Spirit is doubting the willingness of God to forgive sinners like us.  Good luck and God bless.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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tracifish

tracifish wrote:

...especially for me....since I may have blasphemed the Holy Spirit a long time ago. It is true I was having a "hissy fit"....and I was not a Christian at the time...hopefully, I am a Christian now.....but do not want to take the term, lightly.

Anyone can say "I am a Christian"...but Jesus said:

 

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

For what it's worth, this is a nice link from a theist against the existence of Hell:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

 

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!


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totus_tuus

totus_tuus wrote:

Traci...I know I'm gonna get shouted down by this bunch in their efforts to convert you, but I have to tell you that there are no limits to the mercy of God, but that anyone who deliberatley refuses to accept His mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Spirit.

Excuse me, but did you read my post?  I have no interest in converting anyone, however, I am concerned for Traci if she has been told to fear hell to the extent that she seems to.  I agree with you that according to the tenets of christianity the mercy and love of god trumps everything.  I never did accept a god that was all fire and brimstone although the bible certainly could lead someone to believe that is true.  That is why I encouraged her to research the bible and learn it's history.  This will go a long way toward helping her understand her own beliefs.  Unreasonable fear is not conducive to belief or non-belief.

I also have no interest in shouting you down.  It does bother me a bit that this is your opinion of everyone here. *sniff*


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No offense intended towards

No offense intended towards anyone by my opening remark, JCE.  Perhaps it was outta place, but I do seem to be a theist "voice crying in the wilderness" on this thread and have already been accused of trying to "deliberately" convert die-hard rationalists with my post.

Here's a tissue for those tears Eye-wink

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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tracifish wrote:

tracifish wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
If I throw an egg at a neighbor's car...legally, it might cost me a small fine....but...if I throw an egg at the President's car....the consequence would be greater....so if I sin against a holy God...the God of the the bible is infinitely more important....plus He created me and gave me life. My every breath is by his mercy and providence.
I think the finite being would have more justification at retaliation than an "all powerfull " being.
What if that finite being spent 40,000 grand on a paint job and you ruined it?
However, shouldnt an all powerfull being have an understanding that you dont know what it knows? Shouldnt that be cause for more compassion, not less?
So, because I had no choice when my mom and dad screwed each other I owe God something? How exactly was my being born a choice(if we are to assume a deity did it).
If the president was condoning slavery, would you simply obey him? Well, he is the leader of our country.At one point our presidents did own slaves. Shoud those back then not throw eggs(criticism)?
Is that the way you feel about your deity? He gave you life so you owe him something? How sick is it to blindly worship without question.
If god asked you to kill me, would you?(hypothetical)

 

Quote:
All of these posts have good questions (except for the blasphemy parts) ...I can't keep up with all this!

If God asked me to kill you, I would not do it....because there would be no way for me to believe it is God. Not the God of the bible. While it is true He did command Israel to kill people, it was a theocracy...and the bible says we will not have another theocracy until Christ returns....and Christians that have died...or were raptured return with Him.

The bible says that He won't command with a voice....or add anything new to the bible. So I can be certain that He will not be commanding us to kil anybody. If anyone does...I will know it is an impersonator....like whoever Allah is.

You know what this answer should tell you? That your god is what you want it to be.

My point is that "all powerfull" means "unlimited in power".

So if one is going to take that position then this "all powerfull" god must be capable of asking you to kill someone.

"He says he wouldnt do that" only states what he says.

I am not talking about what he says. I am adressing the issue of capability.

The truth is that you want to think of such a claimed being of not doing something like that. But once you claim he cant ask you to kill me you have placed a limit on his power. If he is "all powerfull" then part of his unlimited power is the capability of asking someone to kill someone else, otherwise you cannot logically assign the atribute "all powefull" to such a claimed deity.

If he cant, he is not all powerfull.

If he can, he is a monster.

The point of this example is not to insult anyone. It is to understand the inconsistancy in the use of logic claiming "all powerfull".

That is why I say to you that it is YOU that wants your deity to do nothing but good. Why? Because to think of a parent of doing bad is an ugly thought.

However, god must be capable of anything, including being a monster, otherwise "all" becomes a meaningless sequence of letters.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


JCE
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Thank you - all better!  I

Thank you - all better!  I know it gets a bit rough sometimes, but mostly I try to challenge theists on their beliefs because IMO they should either be able to defend them (rationally?) or examine them to see what they truly believe and why.  For some this challenge may come across as harsh while others welcome it.  Everyone is different.

Now, back to Traci....I hope she responds... 

 


Brian37
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totus_tuus wrote: Brian37

totus_tuus wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

We are not doing anything "deliberate". We are being honest with ourselves. For the same reason we reject Apollo pulling the sun across the sky with a Chariot, we reject claims of multiple armed deties and 3 day old dead flesh surviving rigor mortis.

On the other hand some people "deliberately" chose to believe that rubbing the belly of a fat statue will bring them good luck. Some people "deliberately" ignore the fact that bone doesnt "POOF" magically turn into flesh. Some people "deliberately" put a triangle over a lettered board in hopes of speeking to the dead.

If you think "deliberately" believing in a myth because it makes you feel good is good "Just because", then you are "deliberately" ignoring reality. I dont think that is good.

We have herd all the claims of "God's mercy" an they are no different than the claims of "Allah's mercy" and you might as well incert "Vishnu's mercy" or "Thor's mercy".

A claim is a claim and that is all you have and you are in the same boat as all the other deity claims. So spare us from the "It's not too late" condesention.

We are not lost puppies in need of adoption and no one asked you to save us. You want your god to be real. Making a claim doesnt make it so any more than if I claimed Allah was real.

Mr. Burns is an excellent representation for you...you're a cranky one. LOL

I would never presume to condescend to you, Brian. You're far too rational to be taken in by a dleuded old theist like myself. I did read in this thread, though, the suffering of another and thought I might present the opposing view for her consideration.

Believe me when I say that I have no need to adopt any lost puppies, I've got enough of my own running around here already.

Traci - one point I don't think I was very clear on is that the true sin against the Holy Spirit is doubting the willingness of God to forgive sinners like us. Good luck and God bless.

That avatar is a representation of all the bosses I have had who lived out of state who barked "poop rolls down hill orders" to the poor smucks who make them rich who dont know their names and toss them aside like garbge. So it pokes fun at jadedness.

But back on topic. I am a blustery guy, no doubt. But there is a method to my blasphemy. Wreking balls may seem distructive, but they tear down old things to make way for better things.

BTW, I really dont have a problem myself overhearing one theist say "God Bless" to another theist. But it strikes me as odd to say it to an atheist. It would be the same if I invited a Jewish friend over for dinner and offered them pork chops.

Regardless of the intent of why you say it, and I am sure some here really dont mind, that is up to them, atheist are certainly individuals. But for me personally, it is a pet peve of mine. 

Now, if you'll excuse me I have put my cat in the oven with an apple and need to go get some barbaque sauce. KITTENS ARE YUMMY! 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Since I never had the fear

Since I never had the fear of hell taught to me, I'm astounded and distrubed by Traci's postings.  She seems so desperate and terrified by the prospect that her god will cast her down to hell.  I feel as if she can't even look beyond her fear to see anything else.  I guess hell is a pretty good way of keeping people in line after all.

I still am unable to understand how anyone can say god is so great when there is someone like Traci who is just seems so terrified of hell for the simple act of uttering a 'blasphemy' against god. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver