$666 for contemporary evidence of Jesus - Split off
Posted on: February 13, 2008 - 7:20pm
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$666 for contemporary evidence of Jesus - Split off
Rook_Hawkins wrote:
Considering I've been studying this subject for 9 years now, and am being peer reviewed for publication for the worlds top academic journal by the worlds leading theologian, I believe I have more authority than you do.
Which publication is "the worlds top academic journal"? Which scholar is "the worlds leading theologian"? When were these things decided, how and by whom?
"Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it."
Oscar Wilde
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It's interesting how the New Testament writings themselves are not given historical worth it seems by the garden-variety skeptic/atheist.
Christianity History
The emergence of Christianity in the Roman Empire was based on many factors, and its spread was an indication of massive social upheaval and changing environments. This article is intended to be a look at the history of the Christian religion, and not an ideological exploration of its mystical foundation. The concept of the historical Jesus Christ and the accuracy of the Bible's 'New Testament' (only from a mystical persepective as its recognition as a historical source is generally well accepted), can be considered irrelevant in understanding Christian history. Despite the written evidence for a historical Jesus, the mystical nature of the story of the Christ has led to a timeless debate. Whether one argues for or against the divinity of Jesus, one cannot argue the impact or rapid spread of the 'Mystery Cult' that eventually came to dominate the western world. Biblical and Theologian Scholars have long debated the ancient texts and Christian theory with Archaeologists or Scholars of alternative thought on this matter. That debate will rage timelessly, but the history of the religion can be examined even without dwelling on its divine beginnings, various historical components or conversely, the roles men may have played in arranging early doctrine.
http://www.unrv.com/culture/christianity-history.php
0 x 0 = Atheism. Something from nothing? Ahhh no.
And Karl, religion is not the opiate of the people, opium is. Visit any modern city in the western world and see.
Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "historical worth". If you mean that the Christian religion was a historically significant religion, impacting the lives of billions of people (in varying degrees) and the NT is part of that history, well, I accept that. If you mean that they deserve being considered historical records/historically accurate, in a word, no.
www.caseagainstfaith.com
Honestly, I have to laugh when I see that theists have actually posted responses to this challenge in the belief that their OPINIONS might actually sway you.
When I read the types of responses that the theists have posted, I can understand why you hold them in such low esteem.
Firstly, you and I both know that there is no CONTEMPORARY evidence of Jesus' existence. So your challenge is nothing more than a show to make some "not very bright" theists look foolish.
Secondly, even if some documents were discovered tomorrow that stated the author personally knew a man named Jesus, who claimed to be the Son of God and was crucified under Pilate and this same person claimed to have witnessed the resurrected Jesus and carbon dating PROVED beyond a shadow of doubt that the documents dated back to 30AD, for example, all you have to do is say they were a forgery or a hoax or request something corroberative and you've destroyed whatever "credibility" the evidence might have possessed.
Lastly, even if somebody could provide you with conclusive evidence, you would no more accept it than a hard -core Christian Fundementalist would accept "proof" of evolution, for example.
Have you not figured out by now that aside from your views, you're no different than them..??
To an outside observer, it's so obvious it's actually funny..!!
Here's my challenge to you.
Prove to me that you love somebody - it could be a husband / a wife / mother / father / sister / brother/ etc. But PROVE it - give me an argument that is so conclusive that I can't counter it or come up with an alternative argument.
I'm sure we all acknowledge that love exists. So PROVE it to me..!!
Good luck..!!
This whole challenge is fallacious because you want to put a twenty first century notion of "contemporary" on a period which would consider something written within a hundred years after an event "contemporary."
Spumoni, that's right and its a very good point. Simple Theist you also made good points. By the way, creation scientist Dr Hovind is offering a million dollars to anyone who can show him evidence for evolution. But the evolutionists are complaining that his criteria for evidence is so high that it is impossible to meet. Catholic theologian Robert Sungenis is offering ten thousand dollars to anyone who can prove the earth revolves around the Sun. As far as I know, no one has met his challenge.
I thought about what Matt said in reference to the Lord of the Rings. I didn't see the full movie. I don't know if he was refering to a book about the movie or the movie itself listing the chronology of Frudo (or however you spell it). But I'll address both issues.
If the movie lists a chronology then within the context of the movie, yes, he would exist. He is part of the story line.
If a book about the movie lists a chronology then obviously it would be mythical, based on the characters of the ficticious movie.
But this would be a false analogy if compaired to Christ because the authors of Lord of the Rings admit its just a story and the movie is ficticious. We never find anyone in the Bible or extra-biblical liturature ever suggesting that Christ was ficticious. In addition, Matthew and Luke specifically link the geneology of Jesus to historical persons (King David, Abraham, etc). The people in Bible times believed those people were indeed historical. So to link a mythical figure to real historical persons makes no sense at all to anyone who has a brain. The Jews have always believed that a real historical Messiah would come. The purpose of Matthew and Luke was to show that Jesus qualified for this title in that he belonged to the Messianic line. If Jesus was a myth, why beat around the bush. Why didn't they just come out and say so? Why even bother linking his geneology to historical persons? In conclusion, why die and suffer for someone who was non-existant? All the apostles, with the exception of John, were killed for their faith that Jesus arose from the dead. Its interesting that other "teachers" of that time were historical, but their followers died out. Yet we are expected to believe that a mythical figure had the impetus to generate the kind of movement necessary to launch the greatest religion the world has ever seen? If he was a myth, the movement would never have survived beyond the first decade of its foundation. But he was not a myth. In fact, history was made for him. He is the meaning of history.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
Exactly - and does anybody actually believe that there's such a thing as SUFFICIENT proof that would satisfy the founders of this site that Jesus existed.
Any theist who's spent more than a day on this site knows that there's NOTHING rational or open-minded about many of the atheists who post on this site. Their minds are as closed and as obsessed as the most hard-core Christian Fundementalist.
Or that they're actually going to part with $666 when that money could be used to buy Rook alot of his "free" books..??
Seriously, the owners of this site are playing games with the theists - and the theists are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
Do yourself a favour - don't play their silly little game.
Spumoni:
You and I don't believe in (pink) unicorns, but I'm willing to bet that on a planet of 6.0 billion, there are people who believe in unicorns.
But could you imagine getting up each day knowing that your life - your reason for living - is devoted to disproving the existence of (pink) unicorns. Or debating or arguing with people who do believe in (pink) unicorns.
Just think about that for a moment.
You would actually spend countless hours debating with people about something that you don't believe in.!!!
In my opinion, a rational person would look at somebody who believes in (pink) unicorns, smile, shake their head in amazement and move on and actually do something that's alittle more productive or interesting.
Honestly, I find it very funny that we theists supposedly suffer from some kind of "mind disorder". I wonder what it says about the hard-core posters on this site who have hundreds or thousands of posts to their credit who spend countless hours of their lives debating with people who supposedly suffer from some mind disorder.
What kind of a mind disorder must they have that would would invest so much time debating with people who believe in (pink) unicorns..!!
Bron, very well said. No one is going around trying to disprove pink unicorns or the Grinch who stole Christmas. People don't hate things that don't exist. Jesus exists, that's why atheists hate him and are so committed to trying to discredit him. If God and Jesus don't exist, why do atheists even care? God and Jesus make people happy and give meaning to their lives. Maybe the atheist is just jealous of theists? Perhaps. I submit however that there are dark forces working in the world today with a fulltime commitment/agenda to deliver this world from knowledge of God. This is all the word of Antichrist who's appearance is just around the corner. This was all prophesied in Scripture.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
I think atheists primarily fall into two categories.
There are atheists like my wife - a physician - who really doesn't give a damn if people (like her husband, for example) have faith and religious beliefs or if her young son, Brandon, is baptized in a Catholic church.
Her position is that our son will grow up and get the benefit of two very different points of view and will have an opportunity to come to his own beliefs based on the "evidence" and, most important, how his mind interprets that evidence.
But if people get some satisfaction or hope or happiness from their beliefs, then that's fine.
And, of course, you have theists who fall into this similar category.
And then, of course, you have the types of atheists who spend countless hours on sites like this telling the world why they don't believe in "pink unicorns".
Many of these types of posters remind me of the hard core Christian fundamentalists who feel they're here for one reason and one reason only - to convert the world to their way of thinking.
To me, there's 0.00000% difference, for example, between the founders of this web site and the late Jerry Falwell, for example.
Like I said in a previous post, I have no idea why someone would log onto a computer each and every day and spend their time debating with somebody who believes in pink unicorns.
What kind of a mind disorder must that person suffer from I wonder..???
I believe, though I can't prove it here, that the Masons are behind all of this. They have been on an agenda for generations to destroy Christianity because we pose a threat to their leader the devil/Antichrist. I believe the Masons are behind the modern phenomenon of the "Jesus Mythicist" campaign. They know its BS but they don't care. They have an agenda to deceive and mislead people. I believe most, if not all of the liberals behind the Jesus Seminar are Masons, and I believe the Masons are the ones funding these type of organizations. They are also behind the modern atheist movement, evolution (even though they know evolution is fasle, they have to make it appear as real science in order to strenghten their case against Christian theism), the UFO movement (the Intelligent Design movement is the conspiratorial work in order to replace evolution and give the creation credit to extra-terrestrials. I'm not sure about this but it is a theory. Satan always wanted to be worshipped as the Creator). This would explain God away. The modern Occult phenomenon, the rise of Witchcraft in Western Europe and America (southern California has the highest concentration of witches in the world), the liberal protestant/Catholic movement (women priests, the denial of historical biblical doctrines, false ecumenism, etc), the rise of UFO movements and interests (Raelians, etc. UFO cults are rising up all over the place), the "Jesus Myth" theory postulated in the 19th century was Masonic in origin I believe, the destruction of the Catholic Church through the flagrant blasphemies of the Vatican II Council, which resulted in over 20 million Catholics in America alone leaving the Church (this is a well known fact that Masons were behind this council, and are also penetrating the Vatican). The Patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Constantinople is a Mason, etc. These are dark and evil forces working behind the scenes in order to deceive, lie and write history after their own ambitions. They want to replace Christianity with a "new" false form of Christianity that will appeal to our modern apostate society. They are going to initiate a one world order (by the way, all the founders of the Republican party were Masons), and a one world religion where Antichrist will sit as absolute ruler. They have hijacked our governments and are working behind the scenes right now in order to prepair society for this evil end. We will soon lose our Constitutional liberties (all the atheist organizations working to elimnate Theism from society are Masonic and/or funded by Masons), the abortion movement is Masonic in that they are commited to decreasing the population. Pro-abortion organizations (Planned Parenthood, etc) are Masonic or funded by the Masons, same sex marriage was initiated in order to destroy the moral fabric of society and the family structure. These evil forces are the angents and apostles of Antichrist. They are preparing society for his coming. The Masons are working to make things seem so bad in society and the world, that we will run to the Antichrist when he comes because he will offer world peace, world unity and a one world religion, and he will be the ruler of it all. The good news is that they lose in the end.
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur
Dude, go see a psychiatrist. Seriously. Because if you actually believe this stuff, you have some serious issues. I was going to respond to the previous posts you wrote, but there ain't no way I'm going to debate with somebody as fruity as this. If what you posted was a joke, then congratulations, you got me pretty damn good, just tell me and I will continue where I left off, and I will respond to your previous posts. Otherwise, go get some serious help (or do you thik Psychiatry is run by the Masons as well?)
By the way, my friend from work wants to know, when you talk to God and Jesus, do they talk back to you?
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
I just wanted to add as well, because you mentioned "Dr." Hovind's challange (his Ph.D. isn't actually in science, its in Christian Education). It's garbage, not because his requirements are too high, but because hes asking for things that evolution doesn't even argue for. Infact, I've already debunked his nonsense challange a couple of months ago: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/kill_em_with_kindness/6778
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
Fellow, you and I may be theists, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with the atheists on this one who may be thinking - but not necessarily expressing the opinion - that you're not playing with a full deck..!!
It does sound like Apotheon wears a tinfoil hat!
RRS, is it safe to say in your opinion, that the only proof of Jesus either comes from the NT or 4-5 other sources that were previously mentioned?
Yep.
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
So, you couldn't tell them apart?
Here's one way.
One of them has no problem with using methods of delusion to gain power, no matter the possible negative ramifications for the world.
The others are concerned precisely with this.
I can't take you seriously. The question of 'god' is one of the most imporrtant questions facing mankind.
If it's true, it deserves my attention as a human.
If it's false, it deserves my attention as a psychologist, a logician and a philosopher.
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
: Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evangelism Ministries, Eric Hovind, Jo Hovind, Liar, Evolution, Copyright, Fraud, Youtube, Fair Use La
The only existent claims for Jesus come from the NT. The other purported historical claims (Josephus) are at most, hearsay, and not historical documents.
Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates
: Operation Spread Eagle, Kent Hovind, Creation Science, Evangelism Ministries, Eric Hovind, Jo Hovind, Liar, Evolution, Copyright, Fraud, Youtube, Fair Use La
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/
Here is a site with information on historical Jesus.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
All that really says is that he probably exsisted, but we have no evidence for his godness or miracles besides the NT.
This site didn't really have anything new. The only evidence I could find in it was from the gospels, and couple of references to Josephus (namely the Testimonium Flavinum, which has been thouroughly debunked as a 3rd/4th century forgery). And that's basically it. The rest seems to be opinions on what a historical Jesus would have been like from those who believe that Jesus existed, and all of this opinions seem to be based on what is said in the gospels, and archeological evidence of what life was like at the time Jesus was suppose to have existed. All without making a single reference.
It's also interesting that while this article says there was a historical Jesus, it also says that Jesus wasn't divine, or the Son or God.
http://flyingbagpiper.blogspot.com
Gimme my money!!!
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/the_jesus_mythicist_campaign/9202
"No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us."
I don't think that's going to cut the mustard. From the first post on this thread:
Provide one single reference that originated during the supposed lifetime of Jesus Christ. This means a single person who wrote about him while he was alive. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and for Jesus: a man who walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the crippled, then died and came back to life to fly into the sky, the proof just isn't there.
They are asking for (i) contemporary evidence and (ii) evidence not just for an historical Yeshua, but evidence for the supernatural being depicted in the gospels.
Of course, this is stacking the deck quite a bit. Contemporary evidence doesn't survive or exist for all kinds of ancient figures, but to pretend this means they didn't exist is plain dumb. And ruling out the supernatural Jesus of the gospels is NOT the same thing as ruling out any historical Jesus at all.
The "Wise Old Atheist" says: They decided to invent a god and came up with one who looked like a peasant preacher from Galilee?! Were they on crack?
Yeah, thats true. My evidence doesn't actually meet their standards. I still want the $666 though!
"No one has ever seen God. If we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us."