Good Morrow Everyone.

Wladyslaw
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Good Morrow Everyone.

 Greetings everyone, I am an Oklahoma teen [fifteen] who would like to have a place to actually have a true conversation about religious things without fear of ostracism nor dissent from peers. Seems everyone around here, that is Midwest-city and Oklahoma City,  has rather adamant beliefs, though I will admit some are more willing to accept that others have different beliefs that isn't the general consensus. (My first highschool flipped when it 'got out' that I didn't believe in "God" then there was my dad who flipped out, yelled for roughly forty-five minutes, got a little calmer continued for about an hour, then got to a normal tone for another hour, at the revelation that we didn't share the same religious beliefs, I believe the words Heathen and Damnation came up a few times.) Anyways, I'm rambling, so I'll leave the exposition at that.

 

I am hoping to have some interesting and THOUGHTFUL conversations here, rather than just being yelled at or quietly being judged. (It's funny how silent people get when I tell them my views.) 

 

Other information: ex-'Christian,' I have an affinity for debate, I like the colours chartreuse, cyan, and onyx, male,  enjoy thrash/power-folk metal. (another place of debate lol) grammar Nazi, ISTP personality type, and uhm.. I guess I'd just like to join the community seamlessly. :Ð

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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Don't worry about quietly

Quote:

(It's funny how silent people get when I tell them my views.)

 

Well, people aren't very silent about their views here.

 

Don't worry about quietly being judged, I loudly judge people.

 

 

 


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 I enjoy ostentatious

 I enjoy ostentatious judgement as that provides a basis for argument, both intelligent and belligerent, and both can be quite amusing. Laughing out loud

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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Wladyslaw wrote: I enjoy

Wladyslaw wrote:

 I enjoy ostentatious judgement as that provides a basis for argument, both intelligent and belligerent, and both can be quite amusing. Laughing out loud

 

Lol, in that case you should fit in around here just fine. Welcome to the forums. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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 Thank you kindly.

 Thank you kindly. Eye-wink


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Welcome to the forum

 

I can't imagined you getting yelled at by god people here. We generally have the deluded ones heavily outnumbered. 

Sometimes there are clever theists to play with, too. These folks tend to be far more moderate in tone. 

A lot of us had religious upbringings and are considered hell-bound by our families. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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 Welcome aboard, I hope you

 Welcome aboard, I hope you enjoy your time here. Smiling

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Atheistextremist wrote: I

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

I can't imagined you getting yelled at by god people here. 

 

Your terminology made me laugh. :µ

I do eagerly, and I use the term loosely ( just tired right now), await some heated discussion with theists who know what they're talking about rather than just shouting quotes. 

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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Theists are not too trusting around these parts . .

  Hi

  Average visitor to the board is unlike most people you'd meet out on the street. Heated conversations are not hard to come by. Flash points in conversations within a discussion are  not limited to a particular visitor, they'll spontaneously combust all on their own. Then there is mea culpa, not lasting all that long. Check out things and be sure to dont limit yourself

 

Quote:
with theists who know what they're talking about

  Now, there's a toughy. It depends on what you mean by that. 

 

 

 

 


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Welcome!

Welcome!

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Quote: Now, there's a

Quote:

 Now, there's a toughy. It depends on what you mean by that. 

 

I simply mean that if one can debate one's beliefs with some ground and substance, regardless of the accuracy of one's statements. 

(I do this all the time at school, once I've realized I was wrong sometimes I'll keep going just to see if I can't convince the person they're wrong.)

Edit: Perhaps my original wording was a bit incorrect, lol. :Þ

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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Welcome to the boards! We

Welcome to the boards! We have a variety of theists and atheists, all shapes and sizes, along with different and similar views on politics.

We have a lot of overlapping views, but you will see atheists even get in heated discussions when their views don't jive.

Follow the rules for posting and you'll be fine. We will give you a hard time for things you post only because we like to debate, but don't give up. We all get attacked for various point of views and we still respect each other (well some of us respect other views).

Free will is an illusion. People always choose the perceived path of greatest pleasure.

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Welcome

 

 

                      If you like debating religion this is the place; it is why we gather in mass every day for. So if you are into mass debating this is the place.

 

 

 

 

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Welcome

 

 

                     sorry for the doubble post.

 

 

 

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


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Oklahoma, must be fun

Oklahoma, must be fun especially for someone of highschool age being an atheist. But you probably are not as alone as you think. One of my online friends who posts mainly on another website I met almost 7 years goes by the name Hillbilly Atheist. Has the southern draw, hates corporate country music but loves the social "real" country like Woodie Guthrie(who railed against the abuses of big business and advocated for the poor). Hillbilly is also orignally from Oklahoma, he is now working on a college degree in Denver.

It is funny, when I first met him he was uber Libertarain, but when he told me he was moving to Denver to get a job at a corporate monster, I warned him. After a couple of years working there he became a flaming liberal. He like me are for private business, which some here still don't seem to get, but we both certainly are against money being used to bully people.

Anywho, this is my long winded way of saying you are not alone. Oh and as an aside, as far as being in school, even if you feel like you don't or cant confront religious infractions at school, here are some quotes that can reassure you that they are wrong.

The founders were for freedom of religion, however many where you live wrongly assume that the First Amendment set up a pecking order.

Now while I cant nor should suggest you take risks you can counter their pecking order garbage with the following.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god for if there be one surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson

"As the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" Article 11 Barbary Treaty signed by both houses of Congress without dissent into law by President John Adams, June 10th 1797.

Not to mention "No Religious Test" in the oath of office in the U.S. Constitution.

I'd also suggest "Letter To A Christian Nation" By Sam Harris for reading and "Jefferson" Author of America by the late Christiopher Hitchens.

That wraps up my rambling. Welcome.

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 Hello Wladyslaw!The name

 Hello Wladyslaw!

The name sounds Polish, does your family come from Poland? Anyway, I hope people pronounce it correctly, Poles use W just like and instead of the regular V. They've got the crossed L for the sound of W. 

You're from Oklahoma. You must have heard about Seth Andrews also in Oklahoma, the founder of The Thinking Atheist podcast, he has an awesome Youtube channel with some top videos out there. Story of Suzie is an all-times classic that helped many people deconvert. You could have seen him speak at the FreeOK conference, were you there? Maybe you're young, but I hope it's not impossible for you to visit this event. 

You're at the right place if you want to talk of religious stuff, it's pretty much just one book and it gets all rehearsed very soon including all the arguments. So it's nice that it's still fresh for you. Somehow it's a topic of endless "fun" for local atheists, I'd probably have to live in USA to understand. But I'm very interested in people, how do they live with and without that.

With all these lukewarm "ethnic" Lutherans around I sometimes wish for brief but intense vacations in a real red-blooded American Christian hole on a Bible belt, if not in the buckle itself. That would be exciting. I guess just like your father, when he found you're heading straight to Hell. They say coming out as an atheist is a lot like coming out a homosexual, but with one important difference. When someone comes out of the closet as a gay, admits his proverbial colors (pink), people don't automatically assume he says that being hetero is wrong and stupid and that everyone should be gay too. Whereas people see an atheist like a hole in the spaceship, a threat to everything just by his existence. 

Anyway, welcome. It's good to meet someone who is willing to debate and has some views for a better reason than getting born into a particular family. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Wladyslaw wrote:Other

Wladyslaw wrote:

Other information: ex-'Christian,' I have an affinity for debate, I like the colours chartreuse, cyan, and onyx, male,  enjoy thrash/power-folk metal. (another place of debate lol) grammar Nazi, ISTP personality type, and uhm.. I guess I'd just like to join the community seamlessly. :Ð

Grammar Nazi eh?  Mind your Ellipsis.

The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three periods or full stops (. . .) or a pre-composed triple-dot glyph (&hellipEye-wink. The usage of the em dash (&mdashEye-wink can overlap the usage of the ellipsis. The Chicago Manual of Style recommends that an ellipsis be formed by typing three periods, each with a space on both sides.

I grew up in a tiny Texas town just about 40 miles south of the Texas/Oklahoma border.

Do you know why Texas doesn't slide into the Gulf of Mexico?  Because Oklahoma sucks.

Just kidding with you.  Sticking out tongue

I've got some good Texas jokes too.

 

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


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The warm welcome.

Quote:

Oklahoma, must be fun especially for someone of highschool age being an atheist. But you probably are not as alone as you think. One of my online friends who posts mainly on another website I met almost 7 years goes by the name Hillbilly Atheist. Has the southern draw, hates corporate country music but loves the social "real" country like Woodie Guthrie(who railed against the abuses of big business and advocated for the poor). Hillbilly is also orignally from Oklahoma, he is now working on a college degree in Denver.

That wraps up my rambling. Welcome.

Buahaha, the highschool part of it isn't too bad, it's a lot of our mandates that are irksome. ( Something called financial literacy was nothing more than a glorified year of second grade math.) As far as popular music goes I'm completely lost, lol, I'm an *underground* power-metal fan. :Ð It's good to know there is a little enclave of atheists floating around in OK though. Aside from those that I've convinced to look at things rationally. (Albeit a very small order of people.)
P.S. You needn't worry about ramblings with me, I find myself rambling all the time, usually trying to over-explain things.

Quote:

 

 Hello Wladyslaw!

The name sounds Polish, does your family come from Poland? Anyway, I hope people pronounce it correctly, Poles use W just like and instead of the regular V. They've got the crossed L for the sound of W. 

 

 

You're correct, it is a Polish name. Pronounced Vlad, as in Vladimir Putin, E as in the letter E, slaw as in coleslaw. 

Though I must admit, it isn't my name, I adopted it as a pseudonym in honour of Capt. Wladyslaw Raginis and his actions near Wizna, Poland. (Google it. :3)
Would've used Simo Hayha (Finnish Sniper, killed ~ 742 men, but I felt that a tad inappropriate.) Moreover, no Polish ties whatsoever. The closest blood lines in my family come from people who hail from North America ( Cherokee ~8.37%) Germany (~30%) and France (~27%)

 

As for the bulk of your post, I haven't a clue is to what you are referring to, bar the analogy comparing homosexuality to atheism, an analogy that I shall applaud you for. :µ

Moving on to your last line/paragraph-thing 

Quote:

Anyway, welcome. It's good to meet someone who is willing to debate and has some views for a better reason than getting born into a particular family. 

My personal views are quite different than most in my society. (I assume as a result of social isolation at a young age.) 

I'll admit for a majority of my life I was a 'pious,' and I use the term loosely, child, who firmly believed in a Capitalist Democracy. Though after a couple years of rumination I've made my own choices and have turned out to be a 'communist' (the word is misunderstood to a large degree, at least in my area) atheist who believes in a tribalistic government. (After all Communism doesn't work very well on large scales, nor does tribalism, so they go hand in hand, and as a proof that it works, one can refer to the indigenous peoples of Australia and the North America, and to a larger extent the Oklahoma area.) (: I'm sure we'll have plenty of good debates in the future.

 

Watcher wrote:

 

Grammar Nazi eh?  Mind your Ellipsis.

The most common form of an ellipsis is a row of three periods or full stops (. . .) or a pre-composed triple-dot glyph (&hellipEye-wink. The usage of the em dash (&mdashEye-wink can overlap the usage of the ellipsis. The Chicago Manual of Style recommends that an ellipsis be formed by typing three periods, each with a space on both sides.

I grew up in a tiny Texas town just about 40 miles south of the Texas/Oklahoma border.

Do you know why Texas doesn't slide into the Gulf of Mexico?  Because Oklahoma sucks.

Just kidding with you.  Sticking out tongue

I've got some good Texas jokes too.

I thoroughly enjoyed your post. :Þ

 

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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Ah communism. I think you'll

Ah communism. I think you'll find as you consider it more that with some tweaks and alterations it could potentially work large scale.
Don't really have a way to test it though.

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Wladyslaw wrote:Though I

Wladyslaw wrote:

Though I must admit, it isn't my name, I adopted it as a pseudonym in honour of Capt. Wladyslaw Raginis and his actions near Wizna, Poland. (Google it. :3)
Would've used Simo Hayha (Finnish Sniper, killed ~ 742 men, but I felt that a tad inappropriate.) 

Ah, a military history buff. I have to admit I completely missed the Wladyslaw reference but am familiar with the tales of Simo Hayha and his Mosin Nagant. Are you a gun nut as well or just into history?

 

Wladyslaw wrote:

My personal views are quite different than most in my society. (I assume as a result of social isolation at a young age.) 

I'll admit for a majority of my life I was a 'pious,' and I use the term loosely, child, who firmly believed in a Capitalist Democracy. Though after a couple years of rumination I've made my own choices and have turned out to be a 'communist' (the word is misunderstood to a large degree, at least in my area) atheist who believes in a tribalistic government. (After all Communism doesn't work very well on large scales, nor does tribalism, so they go hand in hand, and as a proof that it works, one can refer to the indigenous peoples of Australia and the North America, and to a larger extent the Oklahoma area.) (: I'm sure we'll have plenty of good debates in the future.

There are plenty of commies of all stripes around here. Sounds like you are more along the lines of anarcho-communism? We have a few regulars of that persuasion that pop in from time to time. Haven't seen them recently. I tend to be more anarcho-capitalist but haven't quite figured out how to get the anarchy part to work as a practical matter yet, so for the most part I am just anti-government, anti-law. 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

Wladyslaw wrote:

Though I must admit, it isn't my name, I adopted it as a pseudonym in honour of Capt. Wladyslaw Raginis and his actions near Wizna, Poland. (Google it. :3)
Would've used Simo Hayha (Finnish Sniper, killed ~ 742 men, but I felt that a tad inappropriate.) 

Ah, a military history buff. I have to admit I completely missed the Wladyslaw reference but am familiar with the tales of Simo Hayha and his Mosin Nagant. Are you a gun nut as well or just into history?

 

Wladyslaw wrote:

My personal views are quite different than most in my society. (I assume as a result of social isolation at a young age.) 

I'll admit for a majority of my life I was a 'pious,' and I use the term loosely, child, who firmly believed in a Capitalist Democracy. Though after a couple years of rumination I've made my own choices and have turned out to be a 'communist' (the word is misunderstood to a large degree, at least in my area) atheist who believes in a tribalistic government. (After all Communism doesn't work very well on large scales, nor does tribalism, so they go hand in hand, and as a proof that it works, one can refer to the indigenous peoples of Australia and the North America, and to a larger extent the Oklahoma area.) (: I'm sure we'll have plenty of good debates in the future.

There are plenty of commies of all stripes around here. Sounds like you are more along the lines of anarcho-communism? We have a few regulars of that persuasion that pop in from time to time. Haven't seen them recently. I tend to be more anarcho-capitalist but haven't quite figured out how to get the anarchy part to work as a practical matter yet, so for the most part I am just anti-government, anti-law. 

 

 

I feel the need for some form of governing, basic laws that are a given anyway. No theft, no murder, ect... though in a 'perfect' communist society there wouldn't be a need for several crimes that are committed in capitalist societies. (Muggings, theft, ect...) Then when tribalism is factored in, the fact that the leader can be seamlessly changed based on the current need, and presumably public opinion makes corruption easy to root out.

 

As for war history, I just listened to the band Sabaton for a while (Still flick on their albums when I need to get pumped) if you've not heard of them they're a Swedish power-metal band who, well, sings about war history. (40:1 was Wizna, White Death- Simo Hayha, Counterstrike - Six Days War, just to name a few) 

I do enjoy guns, though my fascination lies with jets, or more specifically fast objects. (Which over the years has shifted from race-cars to jets to particles, like photons lol.) I wouldn't be able to hold a technical conversation about guns. I just enjoy being around them. Smiling

 

And as for Communism working on a large scale, the hardest part that I can see would simply be the logistics of it all. A network of fast transportation would be required, lest things are broken up in a feudal manner. (I'm simply comparing the system of states, not the governing parts of it.) 

 

Have you read Beyond Nation-states and Industrial Capitialism? I found it floating around on Freenet one night, and it can explain things much better than I can. I'm sure if you just googled the name you'd find it copy and pasted. (Freenet is actually, in a very indirect manner how I wound up here, as I found the Ebonmusings there, and then found it again on the surface net, and sorta just found myself here via the power of google. xD)

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"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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I haven't read it. Some

I haven't read it.
Some random thoughts. > >

Many things would need a central authority to be able to support a logical and consistent facility. Law, transportation, emergency services, armed forces, environmental protection, and a few other things.
The most common potential flaws in central authority are corruption and incompetence. So limits on power are necessary, which can be provided by diversification and transparency.
Competition is also necessary, and is possibly the only thing that capitalism does very well that is also beneficial to the species in general.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Vastet wrote:I haven't read

Vastet wrote:
I haven't read it. Some random thoughts. > > Many things would need a central authority to be able to support a logical and consistent facility. Law, transportation, emergency services, armed forces, environmental protection, and a few other things. The most common potential flaws in central authority are corruption and incompetence. So limits on power are necessary, which can be provided by diversification and transparency. Competition is also necessary, and is possibly the only thing that capitalism does very well that is also beneficial to the species in general.

 

Correct me if I'm incorrect, but, would a model communist society not need laws at all? (Obviously there would be expectations blah blah blah) 

I only say that as, lest I'm missing something, it doesn't do much good to bite the hand that feeds you. 

By which I mean it doesn't make sense to wrong the farmer because then you may no longer get your food, likewise you're not going to want to wrong the doctors for medicinal reasons, nor the physicists because, well, the spite from a physicist could be hellacious. (no more house much?) And you mentioned central authority, that is why I tried to make the feudal analogy. One COULD have less powerful rulers controlling various areas. (akin to feudalism, or the USA) Then a central authority that gets regular reports from those regional leaders. This way things could be regulated, of course the ways of going about that are various some more effective than others, don't really want to get into that. 

As far as armed forces as a whole, could one not, in peace time, use conscription to have all eligible attend training say... once a month, then in war-time to kick-start that and 'spare no expense?' This way everyone is trained during peace-time, or at least isn't completely daft, and when the time comes the needed changes would be made. From my experience it is neigh-impossible to have an excellent military and an excellent economy at the same time. (Something that the United States should get in their head....) 

As far as competition is concerned, communist societies needn't be isolated any-longer, they may not need to participate in a majority of world affairs, but as far as science is concerned participating in diplomacy and collaboration would be necessary and possible.Then the country has a scale to base their level of technology on. The stagnation of science is one of the flaws that communism does have if it isn't done correctly.

 

One of the poorer things about communism is that as far as history is concerned, as far as I know, it has been closely tied with despotism. ( Indigenous peoples aside.) Which then skews perceptions of it.

 

As far as limitations of power, that isn't really something I know a whole lot about, but I would figure this is when a society could choose to have their leaders and people in positions of power chosen based on merit rather than how smoothly they can talk, amongst other aesthetic and superficial features. Have the people that are good at math, go into the accounting and figure checking part of the gov't ect...

Which brings me to something I haven't actually thought too much about, but I'll throw it out there anyway, education...

The best way I can think of doing this would be the same way that I feel it should be done in the Capitalist society.

Rather than promising a certain level of education, allow those that don't want to, or aren't able to further themselves to drop out. While also requiring a test to move beyond certain levels. (primary to secondary  secondary to post-secondary post-secondary to university ect..) Should one not pass they have two options, one being to redo part of their education to go back and actually learn the things that one had trouble with, or to drop out and go into a suitable job for your level of education. After all it doesn't make much sense to have a bunch of engineers if no one is running the assembly lines... There wouldn't even be any shame in having to do an assembly line job because you'd be taken care of just the same as an engineer... (Granted the things that could be done in the free time of an engineer compared to an assembly line worker vary greatly, but that's irrelevant.) 

 

Felt like I rambled a bit, but made a point in there somewhere.

 

"Your sins are not redeemed, by swearing perjury." ~ Mathias Blad

"Change how you look at all things and what you see will change" ~ Per Nilsson/Henrik Ohlsson
"As the need for knowledge flows through the catharsis of thought, ask a question and the answer will be born."


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The problem is that humans

The problem is that humans aren't inherently logical. Even the most logical person has certainly been irrational at some point.

Regarding armed forces, I think participation should be mandatory, and should be the focus of the education system. It should be significantly diversified first, to include rescue and emergency services. Direct experience in healthcare, policing, and firefighting would be invaluable to the average citizen. And some basic physical requirements wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (obviously excepting disabled person's who are unable to meet standards).
Maybe not everyone is cut out to actually do these jobs full time and become experts in certain fields, but it would break down barriers and educate the average person on some of the most important things for society to be concerned about. As well as provide a well trained populace capable of handling all sorts of problems. Not to mention the capability to raise a massive defensive army at the drop of a hat.

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With competition its rather

With competition its rather simple to create it if you set up the business sector the right way. The unfortunate reality that right wing critics often pounce on is that not everyone is equal. It is literally impossible to change this and retain competition, as far as I can tell. So instead of attempting to force the impossible you must adapt to reality. A basic standard of living must be established (well above what is now considered the poverty line), and education must be free. The resources and production of the nation belong to the nation, which belongs to the citizenry. But beyond that the capitalist method works best for competition. Competing products and schools, etc. The ability to earn more by working more, or accomplishing more. Though a reasonable ceiling of income should be maintained relative to the standard. Conversely, if you refuse to make yourself available for work, then you are not entitled to be a citizen.

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With power the trick is to

With power the trick is to limit the decisions that leaders can make without approval from the public. Leaders are most necessary in emergencies, and merit/experience is indeed the best way to go, but in general peaceful circumstances they are unnecessary, and often cause trouble. They've become good at deciding what the people want without actually listening to them. It's best to have a leadership which is capable of taking charge in an emergency scenario, but they should only have such power in emergencies. Locals can take care of themselves better than a central authority under most circumstances, as long as they have the resources to.

Yes, people should be permitted to drop out at a certain point (retaining the ability to return should they desire to). There are a number of things that don't require much education. But if you haven't completed your education, I think you should forfeit the right to vote.
Of course the current education system is garbage, and requires a complete redesign. > >

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I did go on there didn't I?

I did go on there didn't I? Ah well. Been awhile since I actually discussed the hypothesis. I must've been yearning to.

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 *sigh* I just typed for a

 *sigh* I just typed for a good thirty minutes, and then my browser decides to take backspace as a return to last web page, so I'll retype everything when I get home from school. v.v

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Vastet wrote:The problem is

Vastet wrote:
The problem is that humans aren't inherently logical. Even the most logical person has certainly been irrational at some point.

Agreed.  Humans aren't logical creatures, they are creatures capable of having logical thought.

About all this communism stuff though.  I'm a realist.  So far, while good in theory, communism doesn't seem very compatible with human nature.

We can't discount basic human behavior when we are discussing what type of government can work best with humanity.  So far I don't think anything works all that great.

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Watcher wrote:Vastet

Watcher wrote:

Vastet wrote:
The problem is that humans aren't inherently logical. Even the most logical person has certainly been irrational at some point.

Agreed.  Humans aren't logical creatures, they are creatures capable of having logical thought.

About all this communism stuff though.  I'm a realist.  So far, while good in theory, communism doesn't seem very compatible with human nature.

We can't discount basic human behavior when we are discussing what type of government can work best with humanity.  So far I don't think anything works all that great.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried." -Winston Churchill

I agree. Which is why it confounds me that my counterparts refuse to accept this.

I increasingly the more I look at politics and religion and basic human behavior I see evolution being missed and ignored by the prisims of labels.

The truth of evolution is that it desplays BOTH dominance and cooperation, neither solely work all the time or fail all the time. Dominance does work or dictators wouldn't exist, but equally part of evolution is the reaction of the subordinate to that domination.

In the God Delusion Dawkins discribes a clan of birds where a subordinate offers help to the alpha male, but the alpha male attacks the subbordinate despite the intent.

Dictatorships do unfortunately work, otherwise they wouldn't ever exist. But they are a reality that reflects the negitive side of evolution in that the subordinate does not like being dominated and that our species compassionate side prefures mutual cooperation. Unfortunately that idea of mutual cooperation can manifest into a dictatorship.

So utlitmatly evolution is a battle between the individual and the collective. The secular west is more condusive to the dignity and the compassion of the individual.

So lets take the example of Beyond and our battle with each other in this context. I am not going to lie and say I don't want to be on top, and I think he'd at least be honest enough to say he wants to be on top as well. What bothers me isn't the competition, it is the false assumption that I have no value for the recognition of human behaivor. I think I do have an understanding of it and It boils my buttons that the false stereotypes get hurled at me for merely saying that it is we, not him, not I, but we.

If evolution is about both dominance and cooperation, and the collective and the individual, which is the competition of evolution, then our politics and economics cannot be about one party or one class which makes the First Amendment the closest thing to protecting the evolutionary reality of diversity. We count BOTH as individuals and as a collective and neither should have absolute power. Otherwise both parties or one class can end up reflecting the negitive reality of evolution which gives rise to fascism in the form of one party or one religious rule, I see a class plutocracy as being no less a dictatorship.

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No arguments have been

No arguments have been presented which cast doubt on the capability of a socialist democracy to far exceed the capability of a capitalist democracy.

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Vastet wrote:No arguments

Vastet wrote:
No arguments have been presented which cast doubt on the capability of a socialist democracy to far exceed the capability of a capitalist democracy.

I tell you what.  I'm going to give you a labor intensive job to do.  It doesn't matter how hard you work or not because you are going to get the exact same reward no matter how much you get done.

Yeah, that's a winning idea.

Socialism does not promote those who excel.  It destroys incentive.

That's why it is incompatible with human nature.  We'd all get lazy as fuck in no time.

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Watcher wrote:Vastet

Watcher wrote:

Vastet wrote:
No arguments have been presented which cast doubt on the capability of a socialist democracy to far exceed the capability of a capitalist democracy.

I tell you what.  I'm going to give you a labor intensive job to do.  It doesn't matter how hard you work or not because you are going to get the exact same reward no matter how much you get done.

Yeah, that's a winning idea.

Socialism does not promote those who excel.  It destroys incentive.

That's why it is incompatible with human nature.  We'd all get lazy as fuck in no time.

I always get pleasure from demonstrations of inability to read simple English. In this very topic no less. Right wingers are always in such a rush to prove their ignorance.

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Vastet wrote:I always get

Vastet wrote:
I always get pleasure from demonstrations of inability to read simple English. In this very topic no less. Right wingers are always in such a rush to prove their ignorance.

Funny.  The 62 year old stock broker I talk with at work considers me a left wing liberal. 

Since you offer no protest against my statement I believe this means I win.

Or would you care to elucidate rather than just muttering insults?

BTW, on my entrance exam into Information Technology school I had a perfect score on reading comprehension.

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Really. Explain this

Really. Explain this then.

Vastet wrote:
With competition its rather simple to create it if you set up the business sector the right way. The unfortunate reality that right wing critics often pounce on is that not everyone is equal. It is literally impossible to change this and retain competition, as far as I can tell. So instead of attempting to force the impossible you must adapt to reality. A basic standard of living must be established (well above what is now considered the poverty line), and education must be free. The resources and production of the nation belong to the nation, which belongs to the citizenry. But beyond that the capitalist method works best for competition. Competing products and schools, etc. The ability to earn more by working more, or accomplishing more. Though a reasonable ceiling of income should be maintained relative to the standard. Conversely, if you refuse to make yourself available for work, then you are not entitled to be a citizen.

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So, you're going to make a

So, you're going to make a capitalist socialist country.  Got it.

The only thing you need to do is transfer ownership of everything to the government and you're good to go.  Nothing else to change.

And since the government is going to be running everything it's going to have to grow more.

No thanks.

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Wladyslaw wrote: My personal

Wladyslaw wrote:
My personal views are quite different than most in my society. (I assume as a result of social isolation at a young age.) 

I'll admit for a majority of my life I was a 'pious,' and I use the term loosely, child, who firmly believed in a Capitalist Democracy. Though after a couple years of rumination I've made my own choices and have turned out to be a 'communist' (the word is misunderstood to a large degree, at least in my area) atheist who believes in a tribalistic government. (After all Communism doesn't work very well on large scales, nor does tribalism, so they go hand in hand, and as a proof that it works, one can refer to the indigenous peoples of Australia and the North America, and to a larger extent the Oklahoma area.) (: I'm sure we'll have plenty of good debates in the future.

Another Communist? Good. Technically, I'm a Communist too and I can't but agree. The secret of Communism (besides the technical stuff) is that it must be voluntary. Marxism is a contradiction in itself, we can not have a revolution and then dictature of the proletariate and then Communism out of that. The violence makes it all go wrong, because Communism requires giving up power and violent people can not do that. Once they get on the top violently, they stay there no matter what. 

OTOH, I did have a successful Communism in my country, it was centered around the shoe factory of Tomas Bata. It was a voluntary system where Bata provided social support for his workers (rent houses, built schools, extra money, savings, implementing people's ideas) and they in return provided top quality labour and loyalty. Bata himself worked in a glass elevator office, so everyone saw him working hard and everyone could reach him. Bata learned from Henry Ford, but I think he was far beyond him philosophically and morally.

Which is a fine demonstration how big business, big industry is basically a social institution. When something is so big and successful that it has nearly a monopoly in some area, it should take on a social responsibility, raise the local minimal standard of products, services and living and let other smaller business build on top of that, instead trying to defeat the giant. I imagine that an enlightened businessman like Bata would welcome to cooperate with local and even regional politicians on some social projects. Not just charity, but using his manager genius to design social institutions. 

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Wladyslaw wrote:The best way

Wladyslaw wrote:

The best way I can think of doing this would be the same way that I feel it should be done in the Capitalist society.

Rather than promising a certain level of education, allow those that don't want to, or aren't able to further themselves to drop out. While also requiring a test to move beyond certain levels. (primary to secondary  secondary to post-secondary post-secondary to university ect..) Should one not pass they have two options, one being to redo part of their education to go back and actually learn the things that one had trouble with, or to drop out and go into a suitable job for your level of education. After all it doesn't make much sense to have a bunch of engineers if no one is running the assembly lines... There wouldn't even be any shame in having to do an assembly line job because you'd be taken care of just the same as an engineer... (Granted the things that could be done in the free time of an engineer compared to an assembly line worker vary greatly, but that's irrelevant.) 

Is a bad engineer treated just the same as a good engineer? Is a bad assembly worker treated the same as a good one? If so, why would anyone worry about doing their job well? If not, who decides which person gets more?

 

Do you imagine a communist society that still uses money for trade or one that has completely eliminated money?

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Watcher wrote:So, you're

Watcher wrote:

So, you're going to make a capitalist socialist country.  Got it.

The only thing you need to do is transfer ownership of everything to the government and you're good to go.  Nothing else to change.

And since the government is going to be running everything it's going to have to grow more.

No thanks.

Two back to back demonstrations. Hillarious. I'm not helping you this time.

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Welcome to the forum!.

Welcome to the forum!.  

Unfortunately, I rate politics about three hundred places below grass growing on a boring scale.  I do read theoretical physics and philosophy in my spare time, so I'm no party animal.  As a side note I did grow up in Romania as a communist state, and I find the "#firstworld" musings as naive at best.  Humans are far to fallible for an idealistic system like communism to ever work.  The only political system that will ever work needs to be pragmatic in nature and flexible.  An idealistic system is no better then organized religion.  It starts out with good intentions, but ends up with witch hunts and the inquisition.

Communism will always breed corruption because humans are not equal.  If you are, or worst yet only consider yourself to be superior, suppressing that will only bread contempt.  Eventually you will have an unregulated capitalistic system in the form of black market and bribes.  A tyranny is not only inevitable, it is the actual conclusion.

 

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