Do you recognize that God gains pleasure in creating evil?

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Do you recognize that God gains pleasure in creating evil?

Do you recognize that God gains pleasure in creating evil?

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

This quote indicates that the creation of evil is an ongoing process by God and that he creates evil for his pleasure. This makes sense in that God would not create something that he did not want in the world or that would displease him.

As a Gnostic Christian, I recognize that the concept of God is all myth.

Literal and historic belief did not generally come about till about the years 80. 50 years after the death of Jesus. In fact, Jesus was not declared divine till the Trinity concept was accepted, by the force of Constantine in 380.

Having said this, I recognize why the ancient thinkers would say that God is pleased when he creates evil in the world.

Do you understand how and why God gains pleasure from creating evil and sin?

If not, why do you think God would create evil and sin for his displeasure?

If God does not do or create evil as some think, then who else has the power to create evil?

Regards
DL


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what creates the turd, the

what creates the turd, the intestines or the one who made the intestines?

this is the only gnosis i'm interested in.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Greatest I am wrote:Do you

Greatest I am wrote:
Do you recognize that God gains pleasure in creating evil? Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. This quote indicates that the creation of evil is an ongoing process by God and that he creates evil for his pleasure. This makes sense in that God would not create something that he did not want in the world or that would displease him. As a Gnostic Christian, I recognize that the concept of God is all myth. Literal and historic belief did not generally come about till about the years 80. 50 years after the death of Jesus. In fact, Jesus was not declared divine till the Trinity concept was accepted, by the force of Constantine in 380. Having said this, I recognize why the ancient thinkers would say that God is pleased when he creates evil in the world. Do you understand how and why God gains pleasure from creating evil and sin? If not, why do you think God would create evil and sin for his displeasure? If God does not do or create evil as some think, then who else has the power to create evil? Regards DL

 

Also Isiah 45:7 "I create good, I create evil, I the lord do all these things"

But I am curious as to why you say

Quote:
As a Gnostic Christian, I recognize that the concept of God is all myth

Is "Gnostic Christian" supposed to be something like "Secular Jew"?

If you claim it is a myth, and I agree it is, then holding the label "Christian" seems not only superfluous, but unnecessary. I've never understood that about people who call themselves "secular Jews".

The entire reason both those religions were started was because the people who started them wanted their followers to literally believe in that god. It seems silly to me to say "Yea, it's all bullshit, but I like the stories and ceremonies. People do do that, sure, but why? If everyone had "secular" clubs and treated them solely as personal clubs and not political identities or religious nationalities, I would be more ok with this concept. But the side affect of saying "its all myth, but I like it" is it still lends aid to the people who DO still see that myth as fact and are willing to infect politics and education and even start wars over that "myth".

 


 

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Gnostic Christian is more

Gnostic Christian is more like what this site is about.

http://gnosticschristians.com/page3.html

 

 

The Godhead I know in a nutshell.
I was a skeptic till the age of 39.
I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist.
Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake.

“Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.”

This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats.
This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position.

During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit.

I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis.
This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness.

The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step.

I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals.

I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help.

I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further.

My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being.

Without apotheosis to confirm that there is a Godhead, something that cannot be proven to others, it is better for seeking to think of all Gods as myth to drive away gulibility that most have that lead them to believe in the supernatural.

Regards
DL


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Greatest I am wrote:Gnostic

Greatest I am wrote:

Gnostic Christian is more like what this site is about.

http://gnosticschristians.com/page3.html

 

 

The Godhead I know in a nutshell. I was a skeptic till the age of 39. I then had an apotheosis and later branded myself a Gnostic Christian naturalist. Gnostic Christian because I exemplify this quote from William Blake. “Both read the Bible day and night, But thou read'st black where I read white.” This refers to how Gnostics tend to reverse, for moral reasons, what Christians see in the Bible. We tend to recognize the evil ways of O T God where literal Christians will see God’s killing as good. Christians are sheeple where Gnostic Christians are goats. This is perhaps why we see the use of a Jesus scapegoat as immoral, while theists like to make Jesus their beast of burden. An immoral position. During my apotheosis, something that only lasted 5 or 6 seconds, the only things of note to happen was that my paradigm of reality was confirmed and I was chastised to think more demographically. What I found was what I call a cosmic consciousness. Not a new term but one that is a close but not exact fit. I recognize that I have no proof. That is always the way with apotheosis. This is also why I prefer to stick to issues of morality because no one has yet been able to prove that God is real and I have no more proof than they for the cosmic consciousness. The cosmic consciousness is not a miracle working God. He does not interfere with us save when one of us finds it. Not a common thing from what I can see. It is a part of nature and our next evolutionary step. I tend to have more in common with atheists who ignore what they see as my delusion because our morals are basically identical. Theist tend not to like me much as I have no respect for literalists and fundamentals and think that most Christians have tribal mentalities and poor morals. I am rather between a rock and a hard place but this I cannot help. I am happy to be questioned on what I believe but whether or not God exists is basically irrelevant to this world for all that he does not do, and I prefer to thrash out moral issues that can actually find an end point. The search for God is never ending when you are of the Gnostic persuasion. My apotheosis basically says that I am to discard whatever God I found, God as a set of rules that is, not idol worship it but instead, raise my bar and seek further. My apotheosis also showed me that God has no need for love, adoration or obedience. He has no needs. Man has dominion here on earth and is to be and is the supreme being. Without apotheosis to confirm that there is a Godhead, something that cannot be proven to others, it is better for seeking to think of all Gods as myth to drive away gulibility that most have that lead them to believe in the supernatural. Regards DL

I'll read the link a little bit later, but I am a little confused. Are you saying that you believe in "god" for want of a better term, or that by "raising the bar" as you put it, your still searching for better answers ? Maybe I should say "deeper" answers ? 

Correct me if I am misinterpreting. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Yes I don't don't understand

Yes I don't don't understand this at all.  A christian of any sort holds to a "christ". Do you believe a messiah is yet to come? If not then why would would you follow any part of the new or old testament.

Not only do I not understand the concept, but what would be the motivation to start, or follow this group?  There has to be a motivation for such a thing.

I don't like to throw poop at something I'm completely ignorant of, but something stinks here. I'm just not sure what the hell it is.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Harleysportster I do not

Harleysportster

I do not believe in the Christian miracle working super God of scriptures. That God is a fantasy.

I believe, only because of my apotheosis, in a natural cosmic consciousness that does not do the supernatural.

I think that that is all that the old shaman and prophets have ever accessed and that because of the pissing contests for the best God in ancient days, they just kept on adding attributes to it till they ended up with the Omni-everything God.

Apotheosis is described as becoming God like. It is but only in the sense that one graduates out of high school, and now must raise the bar and head for university.

That is why becoming as God is a never ending quest and that most say that God is unfathomable. To stop seeking and to settle with what is found becomes idol worship.

Regards
DL


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Tonyjeffers If you read up

Tonyjeffers

If you read up on Gnostic Christians you will learn that we are more anti-Christian than pro-Christian. Hence ---

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

You will learn that when Constantine bought the then Orthodox Catholic church, they killed many of us and tried to burn all of our scriptures. They failed.

If you google Elaine Pagels, you can listen to some of her talks on this.

My main points are that all can access the Godhead, a cosmic consciousness, without having to go through priests and bishops etc.

This bishop is Christian but speak more like a Gnostic Christian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfFcAmx-Ro&feature=relmfu

Even Martin Luther was turning Gnostic FMPOV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_qnsTr7I04

Regards
DL


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i think what we have here is

i think what we have here is another poor devil attached to the scriptures.


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I am not attached to myths

I am not attached to myths but do try to understand what they were meant to mean and why Christianity has corrupted the older better lessons that they tried to give.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhKVElO8JGo&feature=related

If you have the time to learn instead of posting foolishness, you might want to have a listen and learn something.

Regards
DL


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Greatest I am wrote:I am not

Greatest I am wrote:
I am not attached to myths but do try to understand what they were meant to mean and why Christianity has corrupted the older better lessons that they tried to give. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhKVElO8JGo&feature=related If you have the time to learn instead of posting foolishness, you might want to have a listen and learn something. Regards DL

who said anything about myths?

and if i wanted to learn banalities, i'd go to a hallmark store.  god has chosen the foolish things of to shame the wise.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Greatest I am wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Harleysportster I do not believe in the Christian miracle working super God of scriptures. That God is a fantasy. I believe, only because of my apotheosis, in a natural cosmic consciousness that does not do the supernatural. I think that that is all that the old shaman and prophets have ever accessed and that because of the pissing contests for the best God in ancient days, they just kept on adding attributes to it till they ended up with the Omni-everything God. Apotheosis is described as becoming God like. It is but only in the sense that one graduates out of high school, and now must raise the bar and head for university. That is why becoming as God is a never ending quest and that most say that God is unfathomable. To stop seeking and to settle with what is found becomes idol worship. Regards DL

I think that I understand where you are coming from. However, if what you call god, is cosmic consciousness, where does the term christian come into play ? 

If you reject the miracle working god of the scriptures, then where does the bible or scriptures come into play ? 

Perhaps I am missing your point. Fill me in. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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iwbiek wrote:Greatest I am

iwbiek wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
I am not attached to myths but do try to understand what they were meant to mean and why Christianity has corrupted the older better lessons that they tried to give. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhKVElO8JGo&feature=related If you have the time to learn instead of posting foolishness, you might want to have a listen and learn something. Regards DL

who said anything about myths?

and if i wanted to learn banalities, i'd go to a hallmark store.  god has chosen the foolish things of to shame the wise.

God chose.

How droll for an imaginary construct who cannot choose anything..

Regards

DL


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Harleysportster I do not believe in the Christian miracle working super God of scriptures. That God is a fantasy. I believe, only because of my apotheosis, in a natural cosmic consciousness that does not do the supernatural. I think that that is all that the old shaman and prophets have ever accessed and that because of the pissing contests for the best God in ancient days, they just kept on adding attributes to it till they ended up with the Omni-everything God. Apotheosis is described as becoming God like. It is but only in the sense that one graduates out of high school, and now must raise the bar and head for university. That is why becoming as God is a never ending quest and that most say that God is unfathomable. To stop seeking and to settle with what is found becomes idol worship. Regards DL

I think that I understand where you are coming from. However, if what you call god, is cosmic consciousness, where does the term christian come into play ? 

If you reject the miracle working god of the scriptures, then where does the bible or scriptures come into play ? 

Perhaps I am missing your point. Fill me in. 

The Bible is just a tool that opens dialog.
It is no better or worse than any other book of myths and wisdom sayings.

As a plagiarized book with many errors, it may be better than most for debate. It depends on how you see it.

Gnostic are to seek forever and the bible is good for that as it has many dead ends.

Regards
DL


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The problem of evil is a

The problem of evil is a good one. That I also have been struggling with. No conclusions yet.

The route I took was to try to see the problem from the outside and watch the consequences of actions to their full extent.

I believe that many of our notions of good and evil are wrong. Simply because we are not seeing the big picture. As of the complete picture of reality, in our extremely limited World view we can only see one pixel of a frame of 10^40 pixels.

Now another more sharp word such as suffering, which is not as subjective or fact dependent as morality, brings a harder problem.

If there is a Creator of the physical reality He also created the possibility or the certainty of suffering. Could He have created it otherwise? Unknown.

Is suffering serving any higher purpose? Yes, I believe so. To understand this you have to dwelve deep in character development, understand what changes people for the better and ponder about Nietzsche's words when he said: "To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures."

Should suffering and evil be avoided to the best of our knowledge? Yes.

Didn't know about the existence of Gnostic Christians. I've read the page... and I think you are kind of contradicting yourselves... "Most Christians identify themselves as "believers." Unfortunately, to the world, "believer" implies,"we are right, and everyone else is wrong!"... ok... but then it says: "Many of us, however, believe in Christ but we are seekers as we do not claim our beliefs are the final "word" or "answer."!!!

So you think believing is bad in the first sentence. But on the second sentence you say that you believe in Christ!?

I don't think believing is bad. I think believing in inerrancy is the seed of much evil. Whether is inerrancy of religion or ideology. Inerrancy is the mother of the self-righteous.

Believing gives purpose, and that's a good thing often.

 

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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Unless one has an

Unless one has an apotheosis, it is better to treat all Gods as myths.
Christ is and archetypal character. He is the Christ in all of us. That is the message of all religions and their hero figures.

This Bishop says it well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfFcAmx-Ro&feature=relmfu

So does this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhKVElO8JGo&feature=related

Your view of good and evil is good. Let me add to it if I can.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Belief if it is a hope is ok. Not if based on faith.
Belief as in faith without facts is for fools.
Hope is faith without the foolishness.

Regards
DL


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evil has an intimate

evil has an intimate relationship with suffering. Although a lot of suffering could be avoided  some cant.

Like the unthinking occurrences you mentioned (earthquakes). The problem is the consequences of thinking and unthinking actions as a cause of suffering can be so similar that become indistinguishable.

When you shoot someone in the leg it can hurt as much as a stone crushing your leg after an earthquake. Disasters are not even the best example to talk about the wickedness of nature. Diseases are the best example.

To say that a cancer is not evil and torture is, then you have to convince me that only a thinking agent can do evil. However this does nothing to solve the problem of suffering which I atempted to solve on my last post. Because then suffering becomes independent from evil if unthinking occurences cannot do evil.

The God relation to all of this is speculative. I agree that God's nature and properties is a mythology that comes from religions.

I personally believe that physical reality had a creator. Cannot define this creator and I cannot, from the properties of this physical reality, infer a lot about the Creator.

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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What properties do you see

What properties do you see in reality and what does it cause you to infer about your creator God?

Did he create perfection or not?
Did he create a mess or not?

Regards
DL


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Greatest I am wrote:God

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God chose. How droll for an imaginary construct who cannot choose anything.. Regards DL

precisely.  but that includes you, hoss.  you yourself are an imaginary construct.  so are your choices.

as for your "apotheosis" you keep throwing around, it's nothing more than the reverse image of going feral.  dog is just as divine as god, and god just as flea-bitten as dog.  if there is such a thing as "apotheosis," it is nothing more than a shift in awareness, and altogether unnecessary.

the fact that you feel you have something about the imaginary construct of "god" to teach us (or me, anyhow, since according to you i need to learn) shows that you just haven't used the scriptures yet to properly wipe your ass.  send them home, you poor devil!

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Greatest I am wrote: What

Greatest I am wrote:
What properties do you see in reality and what does it cause you to infer about your creator God? Did he create perfection or not? Did he create a mess or not? Regards DL

"Cannot define this creator and I cannot, from the properties of this physical reality, infer a lot about the Creator."

As I said I cannot do that. God issue is irrelevant for most discussions anyway. But if you force me to speculate I would say the Creator is directly absent from creation and He built it with that in mind. Perfection is relative. What is perfection?

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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very simple.

Greatest I am wrote:
Do you recognize that God gains pleasure in creating evil? Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and Honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. This quote indicates that the creation of evil is an ongoing process by God and that he creates evil for his pleasure. This makes sense in that God would not create something that he did not want in the world or that would displease him. As a Gnostic Christian, I recognize that the concept of God is all myth. Literal and historic belief did not generally come about till about the years 80. 50 years after the death of Jesus. In fact, Jesus was not declared divine till the Trinity concept was accepted, by the force of Constantine in 380. Having said this, I recognize why the ancient thinkers would say that God is pleased when he creates evil in the world. Do you understand how and why God gains pleasure from creating evil and sin? If not, why do you think God would create evil and sin for his displeasure? If God does not do or create evil as some think, then who else has the power to create evil? Regards DL

First off- you're using only one description of what something is--in this case "God". Studying the entire works one finds something else.

2nd off. You also have the ability to create/do good and evil do you not. Hint-- when looking for "God" look in yourself. Your looking" external" rather then internal. You are a victim of old age Europeanism.  As JC points out-God dwells in man--that means it's about the inner, not the outer.

3rd off. God "is" all that is good and all that is evil-----that's includes "you". If you are made/formed (spiritually) in the image of God would you not be the same as he/it/them. You can be God just as well as the next guy. If you accomplish "being" God above another/others then they come under "your" good and evil. God is that which formed in the brain after it formed--and that's the same as you. No one has/had any choice in the matter.

4th off. That's what proper Christianity is about/for--to understand the self, and what the contents of that self are/is. If you look with an open mind you'll see that God is nothing but "people".

5th off. God is that which is the forces one is under or governed by. One is governed by the material and physical forces as well as the inner forces. One can do little about the  material/physical forces except to a certain degree. One can be ruled by the material forces.but, certains of those forces can be adjusted or denied from time to time as required. But, some forces remain such as hunger---you'll have to eat whether you want to or not. The material forces have needs and not needs. those are up to you to accept or deny.

6th off. How one adjusts the forces has a good and/or evil effect on others. That's where Christianity come in---to refrain from certain forces that cause an evil upon others---if possible. There,s a force named "fate" that no one can overrule.  To do a good can bring about an unintended evil upon another, or even one's self. A Christian contemplates the good to one's self as to what evils will come about on another, in a concept named "morals/ethics", which means-- which way does one do???????? Less moral character means one will harm another for the sake of their own good regardless.  

8th off. If you are under civil/external rule then it is not up to you to decide what's moral and ethical. That is decided by the operators of the scheme. Morals and ethics then is decided by them. "IF" they have a obtuse understanding of Morals and Ethics then all become immoral, being fooled into thinking that one is moral by obeying and doing as the system operators dictate in society. Under those conditions one is owned by the State, and one doesn't own his/them selfs. In which case--morals and ethics can be adjusted to fit any situation of demand. Civilization is about a few over the many, and it is the "few" that create the basis for good and evil. "THEN" it is they that are "God" as they are the "Forces" to decide good and evil. It becomes expedient for the followers to become as those of the government. Good and evil becomes twisted to be what they determine. Immorals can become morals and no one has an original sense of what first morals were at the beginning.

9th off. There-fore then, "God" is all that is good and all that is evil, and is the good and evil itself, which means that if you are a God,then you can trick/lie others into believing in "you". Such a one is a "politician". The idea is to remove the individual from ruling "the self" and turn ones self over to them. That means the immoral ones are the ones running the show. Civilization cannot exist without twisted morals, it depends on it.

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such. Civilization is a lie, that there are those more moral then the others, but, one must be immoral to exact such a trick. Once the masses are fooled the decision of good and evil are obtained by a few who rule the many. The few twist the morals of the masses to fit them to their benefit and works. IE- the 2008 financial meltdown. No matter how adjusted (by the US Constitution) civilization will always revert back to it's original design, a few procuring the advantage over the many. Civilization ends when the masses realize that civilization is an unsolvable problem. An ongoing lie cannot be fixed.

11th off. Evil can ans is pleasurable to those that benefit from it. They take pleasure in creating evil on others to benefit themselves. Civilization is a system is concocted good and evil to being about good. But. good can also bring about an evil. The trick is to operate a system where the few benefit from the evil and the good---the masses pay the price. Ask Mitt Romney and other politicians.

You can figure the rest for yourself. NOW--understand GOD. Good and evil do not exist in space--it exists here on the planet.    It's me you and everyone else. The ultimate greatness of "God" (forces) is within the masses.

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Old Seer wrote:10th off.

Old Seer wrote:

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such.

how can one reclaim what is never lost?  never, never, NEVER lost?  nor sundered, nor obscured, nor modified in any way?  you christians are like the monkey who mistakes the flea biting his ass for his life force trying to leave his body!  just brush!  brush, if you can find your hand!

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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there was you

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such.

how can one reclaim what is never lost?  never, never, NEVER lost?  nor sundered, nor obscured, nor modified in any way?  you christians are like the monkey who mistakes the flea biting his ass for his life force trying to leave his body!  just brush!  brush, if you can find your hand!

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Old Seer wrote: when you

Old Seer wrote:

 

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

 

What are you talking about ?  Sounds like something out of a sci-fi dystopian book. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Old Seer wrote:when you were

Old Seer wrote:

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

 

                                   What a crock of shit.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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A taste of your own medicine.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

 

 

                                   What a crock of shit.

From what basis of intelect do you progress. Present your argument and points for discussion. I could say Atheism is a crock, but I know it's not. So- you've never been fooled. Make a positive rebuttal toward enlightenment.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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harleysportster wrote:Old

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

 

What are you talking about ?  Sounds like something out of a sci-fi dystopian book. 

Think about it for a while.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

 

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

 

What are you talking about ?  Sounds like something out of a sci-fi dystopian book. 

 

Think about it for a while.

You mean that you do not wish to pontificate all of that into a simpler form of vernacular ? Or are you just deliberately trying to sound ambiguous ? 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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Old Seer wrote:iwbiek

Old Seer wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such.

how can one reclaim what is never lost?  never, never, NEVER lost?  nor sundered, nor obscured, nor modified in any way?  you christians are like the monkey who mistakes the flea biting his ass for his life force trying to leave his body!  just brush!  brush, if you can find your hand!

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

mu.  mu, mu, mu, mu, mu.

jesus, we got so many poor devils around here these days.  this poor devil is rooted firmly.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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Teralek wrote:Greatest I am

Teralek wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
What properties do you see in reality and what does it cause you to infer about your creator God? Did he create perfection or not? Did he create a mess or not? Regards DL

"Cannot define this creator and I cannot, from the properties of this physical reality, infer a lot about the Creator."

As I said I cannot do that. God issue is irrelevant for most discussions anyway. But if you force me to speculate I would say the Creator is directly absent from creation and He built it with that in mind. Perfection is relative. What is perfection?

Thanks for this.

 

Regards

DL


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O S "Civilization cannot

O S

 

"Civilization cannot exist without twisted morals, it depends on it. "

 

Exactly why God enjoys creating evil.

He , in the myth, decides what is twisted and what is not.

 

Regards

DL


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So

Greatest I am wrote:

O S

 

"Civilization cannot exist without twisted morals, it depends on it. "

 

Exactly why God enjoys creating evil.

He , in the myth, decides what is twisted and what is not.

 

Regards

DL

Hmmm. Apparently Atheists aren't as smart as I was told they are. I was told you guys are good thinkers.

Of course "God" enjoys creating evil. That's proof there is one. If not, how do you revel in evil as your attitude shows you'd rather be evil to another as god is. If you can be evil where/how did you acquire the ability. If all are made in the image of God and you can do evil how can you say there is any difference between you and any God.  Our interpretation of God is "us"---people. There is no one out there some place out there in space watching everyone. It might do you better to stop worrying about the evil God does or anyone else and deal with the evil you do. You criticize the biblical God but not yourself doing the same. Civilization operates on animal mentality, not human mentality. Dig in and understand the problem.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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People created this mess.

Greatest I am wrote:

Teralek wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
What properties do you see in reality and what does it cause you to infer about your creator God? Did he create perfection or not? Did he create a mess or not? Regards DL

"Cannot define this creator and I cannot, from the properties of this physical reality, infer a lot about the Creator."

As I said I cannot do that. God issue is irrelevant for most discussions anyway. But if you force me to speculate I would say the Creator is directly absent from creation and He built it with that in mind. Perfection is relative. What is perfection?

Thanks for this.

 

Regards

DL

Whether there's a God or not is moot.  What the heck are we doing. 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Old Seer wrote:iwbiek

Old Seer wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such.

how can one reclaim what is never lost?  never, never, NEVER lost?  nor sundered, nor obscured, nor modified in any way?  you christians are like the monkey who mistakes the flea biting his ass for his life force trying to leave his body!  just brush!  brush, if you can find your hand!

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

Are you Marshall Applewhite? I've been waiting.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Quit bitching.

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such.

how can one reclaim what is never lost?  never, never, NEVER lost?  nor sundered, nor obscured, nor modified in any way?  you christians are like the monkey who mistakes the flea biting his ass for his life force trying to leave his body!  just brush!  brush, if you can find your hand!

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

Are you Marshall Applewhite? I've been waiting.

use your Human brain power rather then your basic animal tendencies---- prove us/me wrong. You can't do it with negative nonsense and no applied brain power. Try to be "Human" for a few minutes. You guys piss and moan about how awful these floks, them floks, and the other floks are but you are no different the the people you blame for the worlds problems. Human is opposite animal---it ain't that hard to understand. As long as you have the attitude you are then you are the problem as well as anyone else. Cease the horsing around and get it done. Pretending you're stupid don't rate. THINK. As long as you've got a brain apply it to something useful.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Old Seer wrote:tonyjeffers

Old Seer wrote:

tonyjeffers wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

10th off. Proper Christianity is the "reclaiming" of one's self, to decide proper human relations, and, a return to such.

how can one reclaim what is never lost?  never, never, NEVER lost?  nor sundered, nor obscured, nor modified in any way?  you christians are like the monkey who mistakes the flea biting his ass for his life force trying to leave his body!  just brush!  brush, if you can find your hand!

when you were naturally formed. Then you fell into the hands of "the State" to make you according to it's determinations. You are a product of "The State". You are an economic entity to be here to eat and be a eater (consumer). Don't think for a second that you are a free thinker. That was taken away from you when you went to school to be made into a thinker formed to be what you are now. Your mind is formed by those who rule over a system of subegation for material gain/wealth. To serve the central idea of money and superiority over others. You were a natural being until you lost your self ownership, and were skewed into what you are now. This same trick was perpetrated on your ancestors and carried forward to today. You are "not" free minded as you claim. We in our group are free minded, and we are giving it to you. You have been formed to hate whom the State designates, and blinded by the hatred of others so the State can control how you think and in what regard. You would rather call what you don't understand jibberish rather them apply the intellect given you by forces the State is not in control of. Cease hating and reclaim yourself.

I am neither Deist Theist,Atheist, or Christian. I am "me". I am that I am.

Are you Marshall Applewhite? I've been waiting.

use your Human brain power rather then your basic animal tendencies---- prove us/me wrong. You can't do it with negative nonsense and no applied brain power. Try to be "Human" for a few minutes. You guys piss and moan about how awful these floks, them floks, and the other floks are but you are no different the the people you blame for the worlds problems. Human is opposite animal---it ain't that hard to understand. As long as you have the attitude you are then you are the problem as well as anyone else. Cease the horsing around and get it done. Pretending you're stupid don't rate. THINK. As long as you've got a brain apply it to something useful.

Humor is the most polite way I can address something like this. Marshall just came to mind because I watched one of his indoctrination films on youtube the other day. The way he strung ideas together was similar.

Morpheus would have been better. It's like asking me to prove that the movie "The Matrix" isn't a true story.

And you call this applying your brain to something useful? Do tell, how is any of this useful in the real world? How do I apply your philosophy when I walk out the door tomorrow?

 "Civilization cannot exist without twisted morals, it depends on it." , "The State".   sounds like conspiracy theory to me.

"...but truth is a point of view, and so it is changeable. And to rule by fettering the mind through fear of punishment in another world is just as base as to use force." -Hypatia


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Greatest I am wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Harleysportster I do not believe in the Christian miracle working super God of scriptures. That God is a fantasy. I believe, only because of my apotheosis, in a natural cosmic consciousness that does not do the supernatural. I think that that is all that the old shaman and prophets have ever accessed and that because of the pissing contests for the best God in ancient days, they just kept on adding attributes to it till they ended up with the Omni-everything God. Apotheosis is described as becoming God like. It is but only in the sense that one graduates out of high school, and now must raise the bar and head for university. That is why becoming as God is a never ending quest and that most say that God is unfathomable. To stop seeking and to settle with what is found becomes idol worship. Regards DL

What are your thoughts on the gnostic scripture? I think it was the gospel according to judas that has the child jesus making mud birds by a river and then he turns them into real birds. Isn't that a miracle?

Are you a theist even though you cannot know much about god?

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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The quoted verse in the

The quoted verse in the original post supports none of the arguments that are being made.

A god which doesn't create everything in the entire Universe, including the entire Universe, isn't a god in any sense.

"Good" and "evil" exist only in relation to each other.  Additionally, "good" and "evil" are relative concepts.  Some here like to make claims that this god or that is "evil" because some virus / bacteria / insect causes people to experience pain / illness / death to children / young adults / their parents / old people.  What about hangnails?  Acne?  Male pattern baldness?  Sagging breasts?

How come male pattern baldness isn't proof that the god many of you don't believe in doesn't exist?  Is it too weak of an example of something you don't like to justify your disbelief?  Surely if there were nothing worse than male pattern baldness and ED, most of you would assert that the god you don't believe in is "evil" for making your hair fall out.

The arguments aren't merely stupid, they are just plain dumb.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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ex-minister wrote:Greatest I

ex-minister wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Harleysportster I do not believe in the Christian miracle working super God of scriptures. That God is a fantasy. I believe, only because of my apotheosis, in a natural cosmic consciousness that does not do the supernatural. I think that that is all that the old shaman and prophets have ever accessed and that because of the pissing contests for the best God in ancient days, they just kept on adding attributes to it till they ended up with the Omni-everything God. Apotheosis is described as becoming God like. It is but only in the sense that one graduates out of high school, and now must raise the bar and head for university. That is why becoming as God is a never ending quest and that most say that God is unfathomable. To stop seeking and to settle with what is found becomes idol worship. Regards DL

What are your thoughts on the gnostic scripture? I think it was the gospel according to judas that has the child jesus making mud birds by a river and then he turns them into real birds. Isn't that a miracle?

That's the Qur'an, borrowed from the Gospel of Thomas.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Old Seer wrote:Greatest I am

Old Seer wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

O S

 

"Civilization cannot exist without twisted morals, it depends on it. "

 

Exactly why God enjoys creating evil.

He , in the myth, decides what is twisted and what is not.

 

Regards

DL

Hmmm. Apparently Atheists aren't as smart as I was told they are. I was told you guys are good thinkers.

Of course "God" enjoys creating evil. That's proof there is one. If not, how do you revel in evil as your attitude shows you'd rather be evil to another as god is. If you can be evil where/how did you acquire the ability. If all are made in the image of God and you can do evil how can you say there is any difference between you and any God.  Our interpretation of God is "us"---people. There is no one out there some place out there in space watching everyone. It might do you better to stop worrying about the evil God does or anyone else and deal with the evil you do. You criticize the biblical God but not yourself doing the same. Civilization operates on animal mentality, not human mentality. Dig in and understand the problem.

I have no problem with evil.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL


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Old Seer wrote:Greatest I am

Old Seer wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:

Teralek wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
What properties do you see in reality and what does it cause you to infer about your creator God? Did he create perfection or not? Did he create a mess or not? Regards DL

"Cannot define this creator and I cannot, from the properties of this physical reality, infer a lot about the Creator."

As I said I cannot do that. God issue is irrelevant for most discussions anyway. But if you force me to speculate I would say the Creator is directly absent from creation and He built it with that in mind. Perfection is relative. What is perfection?

Thanks for this.

 

Regards

DL

Whether there's a God or not is moot.  What the heck are we doing. 

Our social duty.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBv8tv62yGM

Promoting death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL


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ex-minister wrote:Greatest I

ex-minister wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Harleysportster I do not believe in the Christian miracle working super God of scriptures. That God is a fantasy. I believe, only because of my apotheosis, in a natural cosmic consciousness that does not do the supernatural. I think that that is all that the old shaman and prophets have ever accessed and that because of the pissing contests for the best God in ancient days, they just kept on adding attributes to it till they ended up with the Omni-everything God. Apotheosis is described as becoming God like. It is but only in the sense that one graduates out of high school, and now must raise the bar and head for university. That is why becoming as God is a never ending quest and that most say that God is unfathomable. To stop seeking and to settle with what is found becomes idol worship. Regards DL

What are your thoughts on the gnostic scripture? I think it was the gospel according to judas that has the child jesus making mud birds by a river and then he turns them into real birds. Isn't that a miracle?

Are you a theist even though you cannot know much about god?

Gnostics are not literalists looking for a God out there. We look to the God within or access to God from within.

All Gospels, Gnostic or not, FMPOV, were written to stimulate discussions and the search for God. Sure, some of the Gnostics believed in the supernatural but not many from what I can gather. Gnosis means knowledge and fantasy is not knowledge.

http://gnosticschristians.com/page3.html

Gnostics are seekers and even as in my case, success is at hand, we are to set that God aside, so to speak, raise the bar of expectation, and seek further.

Regards
DL


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FurryCatHerder wrote:The

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The quoted verse in the original post supports none of the arguments that are being made.

A god which doesn't create everything in the entire Universe, including the entire Universe, isn't a god in any sense.

"Good" and "evil" exist only in relation to each other.  Additionally, "good" and "evil" are relative concepts.  Some here like to make claims that this god or that is "evil" because some virus / bacteria / insect causes people to experience pain / illness / death to children / young adults / their parents / old people.  What about hangnails?  Acne?  Male pattern baldness?  Sagging breasts?

How come male pattern baldness isn't proof that the god many of you don't believe in doesn't exist?  Is it too weak of an example of something you don't like to justify your disbelief?  Surely if there were nothing worse than male pattern baldness and ED, most of you would assert that the god you don't believe in is "evil" for making your hair fall out.

The arguments aren't merely stupid, they are just plain dumb.

Then it shouls be easy for ytou to improve on it. I await your wisdom.

In the meantime.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL


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Greatest I am wrote:Then it

Greatest I am wrote:
Then it shouls be easy for ytou to improve on it. I await your wisdom. In the meantime. Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”. That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy." But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility. Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution. Consider. First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Evil then is only human to human. As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate. Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times. Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct. This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well. Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature. There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition. Regards DL

 

   What an excellent assessment Greatest I Am.  I've never seen the Christian free will bull shit  taken apart and analyzed so effectively. 

 

 

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Then it shouls be easy for ytou to improve on it. I await your wisdom. In the meantime. Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”. That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy." But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility. Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution. Consider. First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Evil then is only human to human. As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate. Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times. Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct. This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well. Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature. There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition. Regards DL

 

   What an excellent assessment Greatest I Am.  I've never seen the Christian free will bull shit  taken apart and analyzed so effectively. 

 

 

 

I second what Prozac said. 

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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HeHaHaHaHeHaHaHa

Imbiek wrote:
jesus, we got so many poor devils around here these days.  this poor devil is rooted firmly.

 Ooohhh

 


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I'm not a Theist, Deist, or Atheist or Christian

harleysportster wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Greatest I am wrote:
Then it shouls be easy for ytou to improve on it. I await your wisdom. In the meantime. Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”. That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy." But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem. If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that it is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility. Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution. Consider. First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Evil then is only human to human. As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate. Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times. Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct. This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well. Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature. There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition. Regards DL

 

   What an excellent assessment Greatest I Am.  I've never seen the Christian free will bull shit  taken apart and analyzed so effectively. 

 

 

 

I second what Prozac said. 

I am me. a neutral. However, you are an example of what's wrong with the world. You have no basis to complain about anyone---other then your self. I re-state --- prove my input wrong or faulty. You were born a neutral, what happened? Answer please.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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If you use the time to apply your

danatemporary wrote:

Imbiek wrote:
jesus, we got so many poor devils around here these days.  this poor devil is rooted firmly.

 Ooohhh

 

Intellect and overall information you'll find that God is nothing more then good and evil in itself. There are different terms used to say God that all lead to the same---and an understanding. All good "is" God, and all "evil" is God. We all have these same inner components. Terms for "God " are " (you'll find that the applications apply) God=government=way=power=I=life=me=you-everyone. If you study you will find that to be true. Through the ages God is a term applied to something not understood and beyond ones personal control. Example---the way of the world is "evil", the same as , the God/Way of the world is based on evil doing. If an evil is contrived (thought out or planned) it is labeled "Satan" which denoted that the evil done was not inadvertent. An earth quake can be an evil upon many people, but. it isn't contrived by intelligent planning. If the information is--- I am God and I do evil, that is merely a writer of the sentence saying that God is a contrivance of evil perpetrated by a person or people. God is also applies to natural phenomenon such as tornadoes, storms, earthquakes,high tides, etc. In this case God is a term to express something outside of people's control. What this reduces to is "power", or "Force". One can then understand that God is nothing more then the "Forces" one lives under and within.

For the sake of your learning and to know the situation-I am one of a group of about 30 individuals of various fields in the sciences, which include 3 in the psycho fields, 2 engineers, 2 physicists, 2 medical doctors. 1 bio researcher, 1 archaeologist, 1 geologist and others. I tell you this so you'll know we're not dummies. We've been there, done that. Most are retired or nearly so we have plenty of time to sustain the arguments and rudeness of others.

 We get into these arguments and and discussions for the sake of others, not our own. 

OK- lets get at it.

The moment you were born you understood nothing. Is that correct---yes/no

Eventually you became capable of learning. Yes/no

What did you lean and from who.

What did you learn to become.

What was the purpose for your learning.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


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Oh, It's like that is it ?

teacher wrote:
For the sake of your learning and to know the situation-I am one of a group of about 30 individuals of various fields in the sciences, which include 3 in the psycho fields, 2 engineers, 2 physicists, 2 medical doctors. 1 bio researcher, 1 archaeologist, 1 geologist and others. I tell you this so you'll know we're not dummies. We've been there, done that. Most are retired or nearly so we have plenty of time to sustain the arguments and rudeness of others.

We get into these arguments and and discussions for the sake of others, not our own.

OK- lets get at it.
This is pretty damn conceited. If you are part of a group. You might be able to recognize this board as a group. As such, we acknowledge one another from time to time. I want touchy to realize this is most disconcerting to me that you cannot recognize the comment for what it was. Furthermore, Although easily taken as a challenge I will assume this is more in a broader context at EVERYBODY. Nothing I have written to you would warrant a personal challenge. Be more careful with phrases like "let's go" or "let's get at it". This isn't the nicest things in the world to say, but I have to give my impression "Oh" was obviously taken it a manner it was never intended. Don't go there.I have never seen anything you have written to my satisfaction. Meaning, We'd need to spend days simply defining terms, if you were to engage me personally I would have you know I would only agree "let's go" upon pain of blood and death were we to define terms. I am choosing to believe you are simply upset, which is not an uncommon occurrence at any forum. Long on claims is easy, back it up is another story entirely. Refusing to establish a case is not always the best call. That is very narrow and dare I say conceited, usually the kind of conceit the depths we scarcely know. I just wish that any of us would also recognize our own limitations. Whatever system you have uncovered and understanding you lay claim to. It derived from somewhere. We would spend considerable time citing an almost insane amount of passages from the New Testament to help establish where these thoughts have their origins in the first place. Plus, I am here to learn has been made clear. You might want to inverse your stance, with a little less conceit (or not).


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:   

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

 

   What an excellent assessment Greatest I Am.  I've never seen the Christian free will bull shit  taken apart and analyzed so effectively. 

 

 

I blush. Thanks.

 

Regards

DL

 


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

I second what Prozac said. 

Now I blush everywhere. So much blood preesure. I need to go find my wife. LOL.

Thanks.

Regards

DL