Is anti-zionist antisemitic?

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Is anti-zionist antisemitic?

Izziehuggers have been trying to equate daming criminal Zionism as antisemitic for a long time.

So I had a thought, just how many Israelis are anti-zionist?

The Israeli press on the internet regularly reports orthodox sects in Israel as being anti-zionist. They say this is the fastest growing population group in Israel and is presently at 15% of the population of 40% of the gradeschool population. If we can reasonably assume the 20% Muslim and 2% Christian native population are also anti-zionist then 37% of Israelis as anti-zionists.

Is it true that 37% of Israelis are antisemitic? Or are they just rationally anti-european zionists?

 

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anti-zionist is not

anti-zionist is not necessarily anti-semitic.  ironically, it was precisely the orthodox jews who were overwhelmingly opposed to the creation of the state of israel.  chaim potok portrays this dramatically in the chosen.

i personally tend to use hannah arendt's definitions of "anti-jewish" and "anti-semitic," which can be found in her origins of totalitarianism, mainly because i find them the most reasonable and helpful.  imo, "anti-zionist" fits neither of those definitions. 

interestingly enough, hannah arendt was often called out for being anti-israel, most notably by gershom scholem.

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No, it's possibly not

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

   So, we atheists don't think just as contemptuously of Christians ?  How many times on this forum do we use invective when referring to theists and other believers of woo ?    Please, we are anything but antiseptic when responding to annoying Christians.  Lighten up.

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We are contemptuous of their beliefs

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

   So, we atheists don't think just as contemptuously of Christians ?  How many times on this forum do we use invective when referring to theists and other believers of woo ?    Please, we are anything but antiseptic when responding to annoying Christians.  Lighten up.

 

sure - but of their races? I think not. Be assured I do feel lightly about Nony's hebrew fixation - probably too lightly. But I think my point is justly made. Continually insulting the same race is possibly racist at the very least. 

 

 

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

   So, we atheists don't think just as contemptuously of Christians ?  How many times on this forum do we use invective when referring to theists and other believers of woo ?    Please, we are anything but antiseptic when responding to annoying Christians.  Lighten up.

 

sure - but of their races? I think not. Be assured I do feel lightly about Nony's hebrew fixation - probably too lightly. But I think my point is justly made. Continually insulting the same race is possibly racist at the very least. 

 

 

 

well, also in the origins of totalitarianism, hannah arendt cites the rise in the middle ages of the idea of the jews as a race--among both jews and gentiles--as the root of anti-semitism. 

still, she contends that anti-semitism as such is a modern phenomenon beginning in the 19th century with the writings of people like gobineau and treitschke. 

whatever your opinions on what "anti-semitism" means, jews cannot definitively be called a "race."  the idea has always been extremely controversial, and many jews take offense to it.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
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Jews are certainly not a race

 

But 'Izzies' definitely are. 

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Atheistextremist wrote: But

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

But 'Izzies' definitely are. 

never heard of a race called "izzie."  apparently google hasn't either.  "izzie" is some people's charming term for an israeli.  "israeli" is a nationality and has no racial element to it.  if you have israeli citizenship, you're an israeli, regardless of your race or ethnicity.

 

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Atheistextremist wrote: But

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

But 'Izzies' definitely are. 

  

I don't understand you.  Someone chooses to be prejudiced against a race and you get offended, yet you choose to be prejudiced against persons who hold religious beliefs and it doesn't bother you.  You're Atheistextremist ?  So what does that convey?   What if we had a member who chose the username Racialextremist ?  No big deal ?

 Why would a victim of prejudice care if the basis of derision is based upon inherited characteristics ( race ) or chosen characteristics ( religion ) if both are are expressed as prejudice ?    So called "hate crimes" are also based upon religious affiliation as well as race, so why should you draw a distinction between yourself and Nony ?  A kick to the nuts is still a kick to the nuts, bro.

I sure as hell am prejudiced against religious people in general.    Why shouldn't I be?    But I don't go around burning down churches or committing acts of violence.

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If I was an Israeli

 

I'd find the term 'Izziehuggers' offensive. Israel is a nation as genetically homogeneous as China or Pakistan. What if I started using the terms 'Chink-huggers' or 'Paki-huggers'. How comfortable would you be with that?

Nony users Izzie-huggers the same way some South Africans use the term Kaffir-Boeties. It's not meant to be polite. It's a racial insult. As for whether there's a genetic difference between jews and israelis, the nomenclature is not worth torturing with distinction. We all know Israel is where the jews live and the people Nony always criticises are jews.  

Yeah, I'm Atheistextremist. It's a label that expresses some angry feelings I used to have for groups of ideas I hated. It's rather a redundant label now, and as those who have read my posts over the past 18 months or so will broadly appreciate, it has no great bearing on my behaviour towards the godly and zero consideration for race. I am prone to lash out at threats or demeaning remarks from god people about atheist's lack of morality and I dislike the doctrine of radical Islam but I'm generally not particularly hostile or abusive. Monotheists are as capable of good as we are. 

Nony, on the other hand, indulges in the endless insult of one nationality while maintaining he does not do so and he is an apologist for Germany's war crimes. There is a difference here. We can all rest perfectly assured that 15 of Nony's next 20 posts will in some way seek to belittle Israel and all the 'Izziehuggers' of the world. 

Personally, I agree Israel is absolutely culpable when considered against a background of human moral consistency. And so is Palestine, China, Zimbabwe, Iran, Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Greece, South Africa, Australia, the USA, Somalia, France, Germany, Nigeria, Turkey & c & c & c. If Nony took a broad position against general wrong in the world I'd think differently but the very title of this thread is another excuse for him to luxuriate in his passion for 'Izzie-bashing'. He can't get his mind off Israel despite all the world's horror and oppression. 

You may see no difference between Nony's behaviour and my avatar but in my opinion you are mistaken and I believe the thrust of Nony's future posts will bear me out. I've argued on the boards before that monotheism should be recognised as bigotry in the same way as racism, sexism and homophobia. As a migrant to the country I live in I spent my high school years with the nick-name of 'Wog' thanks to a silly accent and I'm not fond of pointed racial insults, nor threats or insults from the religious. All these things are conservative expressions of hatred for perceived threats based on difference. 

My opposition to these groups of ideas cannot be construed as the same thing they are by virtue of mutually outspoken expression. If some one can prove to me that the beliefs we hold as atheists contain some inherent bigotry I will demur but presently the similarities between Nony's position and my own are lost upon me. 

 

 

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Mmmmm

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

But 'Izzies' definitely are. 

 

This comment didn't make a lot of sense, did it.

Nevertheless, when Nony says Izzie we know he's using a derogatory term for jews.

He's not saying muzzie izzie, is 'e?

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regardless of nony's intent,

regardless of nony's intent, a racial epithet needs a history of widespread use and negative cultural context in order to be self-evidently racist.  in other words, if someone uses a racial epithet that the majority of people in a given society don't recognize as such, then it isn't an indisputable racial epithet.  "chink" and "paki" have been used as racial epithets for generations by enormous populations of people, thus a person would be justified in calling racism.

if i call somebody a "fandangler" and someone asks me what i mean by that and i say, "oh, it's my derogatory term for puerto ricans," most people are more likely to think that sounds silly rather than be offended by my racism.  now "spick" would be a different story.

not many people use "izzie" for jews and/or israelis.  in fact, "izzie" is a fairly common name.  i was only able to find one alarmist news article that uses "izzies" to refer to israelis, and that was after several creative google searches.  if nony had said "kike-huggers" or "heeb-huggers," yes, that would have been self-evidently racist.  "izzie-huggers," however, just doesn't have that power.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
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Noony wont lose his boner

Noony wont lose his boner for this topic. Our species evolution is lost on him, everything in our species history is the fault of "Izziehuggers" and "Izzies".. Just like a white person blaming all crime on "niggers".

He fails, just like Furry, to see life for what it is as part of evolution, in that the groups have formed as a way of survival and humans have ALWAYS done this long before either of these childish  tribes existed, even before recorded history. Tribalism and alpha male group, are a result of EVOLUTION, not the invention of Palestinians or "Izzies".

Noony has simply picked an arbitrary point in our species history and is stuck on a stupid  label. Instead of treating individuals as such.

Here's one Noony, "Not all atheists are Noonyhuggers".

Noony PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF!

You are nothing but childish bigot and no better than any other bigot.

 

 

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I can't answer this because

I can't answer this because I'm not sure what zionist even means. I have yet to see a definition that made any sense yet revealed any real difference between the terms zionist and jewish. About all I know for sure is that zionism is exclusively linked to judaism, as opposed to any other religious belief system (ie: christianity).

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On further consideration I think

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

 

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote: I'd

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

I'd find the term 'Izziehuggers' offensive.

 

 

 Sometimes the price you pay for allowing free speech goes that way. Someone will always be offended sooner or later.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Israel is a nation as genetically homogeneous as China or Pakistan.

 

  Be that as it may do you really think that if Nony wanted to single out Hebrews that he is too timid to do so ?  Why would he bother with an ambiguous term such as "Israeli" if he really meant something dealing with a specific racial category ?  How hard would that be for someone as verbose as Nony to put that into words ?

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
What if I started using the terms 'Chink-huggers' or 'Paki-huggers'. How comfortable would you be with that?

 

     Should my discomfort  over ride your right to free speech ? 

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Nony users Izzie-huggers the same way some South Africans use the term Kaffir-Boeties. It's not meant to be polite. It's a racial insult.

 

An insult is an insult. Such rough handed terminology abounds on almost every thread on this forum.  When ever Furry feels "offended" by me she accuses me of being a "sociopath", a "child molester" a "rapist".   Big deal. Do you think I am injured by her childish insults ?

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
As for whether there's a genetic difference between jews and israelis, the nomenclature is not worth torturing with distinction. We all know Israel is where the jews live and the people Nony always criticises are jews. 

 

   So what ?   He criticizes the Jews / Israelis / Hebrews.  This is what upsets you ?  Criticism ?

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Yeah, I'm Atheistextremist. It's a label that expresses some angry feelings I used to have for groups of ideas I hated.

 

 So you felt no animosity for the people who embodied those hated ideas ?  Is that kind of like Christians when they say "Hate the sin, love the sinner."  ?  Wow, you certainly are an enlightened extremist.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
It's rather a redundant label now, and as those who have read my posts over the past 18 months or so will broadly appreciate, it has no great bearing on my behaviour..../quote] 

 

And what do you know of Nony's behaviour ?  You automatically assume the moral high ground without a basis for doing so.  Do you have knowledge of Nony behaving in a criminal manner ?

 

quote=Atheistextremist] ...I am prone to lash out at threats or demeaning remarks from god people about atheist's lack of morality and I dislike the doctrine of radical Islam but I'm generally not particularly hostile or abusive. Monotheists are as capable of good as we are. 

Nony, on the other hand, indulges in the endless insult of one nationality while maintaining he does not do so and he is an apologist for Germany's war crimes. There is a difference here. We can all rest perfectly assured that 15 of Nony's next 20 posts will in some way seek to belittle Israel and all the 'Izziehuggers' of the world.

 

Again, for the time being he can say what ever the hell he wants to and if it offends you then the best you can do is offer your rebuttal which he, ironically, may in turn find utterly offensive as well.  Yin and Yang.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Personally, I agree Israel is absolutely culpable when considered against a background of human moral consistency. And so is Palestine, China, Zimbabwe, Iran, Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Greece, South Africa, Australia, the USA, Somalia, France, Germany, Nigeria, Turkey & c & c & c. If Nony took a broad position against general wrong in the world I'd think differently but the very title of this thread is another excuse for him to luxuriate in his passion for 'Izzie-bashing'. He can't get his mind off Israel despite all the world's horror and oppression.

 

Then please start your own thread regarding the crimes of these other world hot spots.  If you feel the need to provide balance, then you are equally free to do so. 

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
You may see no difference between Nony's behaviour and my avatar but in my opinion you are mistaken and I believe the thrust of Nony's future posts will bear me out. I've argued on the boards before that monotheism should be recognised as bigotry in the same way as racism, sexism and homophobia. As a migrant to the country I live in I spent my high school years with the nick-name of 'Wog' thanks to a silly accent and I'm not fond of pointed racial insults, nor threats or insults from the religious. All these things are conservative expressions of hatred for perceived threats based on difference. 

My opposition to these groups of ideas cannot be construed as the same thing they are by virtue of mutually outspoken expression. If some one can prove to me that the beliefs we hold as atheists contain some inherent bigotry I will demur but presently the similarities between Nony's position and my own are lost upon me.

 

No I see little difference in the sense that both of you organize your arguments based upon "in" groups and "out" groups.  You rationalize your opposition to your perceived enemies in the same way that Nony does.   Everyone can find reasons to justify their arguments.   You both have groups that you target as unsavory and you stand in opposition to. 

 "Bigotry" is a very politically loaded word in todays terminology.  Just as "hate" is.  Very rarely is it ever applied in an equitable manner.

 

 

 

 

 

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Racism is a pretty serious

Racism is a pretty serious accusation. I don't think it should be tossed around lightly. It's hard to prove, it can make the accuser look bad and usually it's probably irrelevant anyway.

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We can trade disagreements all day

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

I'd find the term 'Izziehuggers' offensive.

 

 

 Sometimes the price you pay for allowing free speech goes that way. Someone will always be offended sooner or later.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Israel is a nation as genetically homogeneous as China or Pakistan.

 

  Be that as it may do you really think that if Nony wanted to single out Hebrews that he is too timid to do so ?  Why would he bother with an ambiguous term such as "Israeli" if he really meant something dealing with a specific racial category ?  How hard would that be for someone as verbose as Nony to put that into words ?

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
What if I started using the terms 'Chink-huggers' or 'Paki-huggers'. How comfortable would you be with that?

 

     Should my discomfort  over ride your right to free speech ? 

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Nony users Izzie-huggers the same way some South Africans use the term Kaffir-Boeties. It's not meant to be polite. It's a racial insult.

 

An insult is an insult. Such rough handed terminology abounds on almost every thread on this forum.  When ever Furry feels "offended" by me she accuses me of being a "sociopath", a "child molester" a "rapist".   Big deal. Do you think I am injured by her childish insults ?

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
As for whether there's a genetic difference between jews and israelis, the nomenclature is not worth torturing with distinction. We all know Israel is where the jews live and the people Nony always criticises are jews. 

 

   So what ?   He criticizes the Jews / Israelis / Hebrews.  This is what upsets you ?  Criticism ?

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Yeah, I'm Atheistextremist. It's a label that expresses some angry feelings I used to have for groups of ideas I hated.

 

 So you felt no animosity for the people who embodied those hated ideas ?  Is that kind of like Christians when they say "Hate the sin, love the sinner."  ?  Wow, you certainly are an enlightened extremist.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
It's rather a redundant label now, and as those who have read my posts over the past 18 months or so will broadly appreciate, it has no great bearing on my behaviour..../quote] 

 

And what do you know of Nony's behaviour ?  You automatically assume the moral high ground without a basis for doing so.  Do you have knowledge of Nony behaving in a criminal manner ?

 

quote=Atheistextremist] ...I am prone to lash out at threats or demeaning remarks from god people about atheist's lack of morality and I dislike the doctrine of radical Islam but I'm generally not particularly hostile or abusive. Monotheists are as capable of good as we are. 

Nony, on the other hand, indulges in the endless insult of one nationality while maintaining he does not do so and he is an apologist for Germany's war crimes. There is a difference here. We can all rest perfectly assured that 15 of Nony's next 20 posts will in some way seek to belittle Israel and all the 'Izziehuggers' of the world.

 

Again, for the time being he can say what ever the hell he wants to and if it offends you then the best you can do is offer your rebuttal which he, ironically, may in turn find utterly offensive as well.  Yin and Yang.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
Personally, I agree Israel is absolutely culpable when considered against a background of human moral consistency. And so is Palestine, China, Zimbabwe, Iran, Indonesia, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Greece, South Africa, Australia, the USA, Somalia, France, Germany, Nigeria, Turkey & c & c & c. If Nony took a broad position against general wrong in the world I'd think differently but the very title of this thread is another excuse for him to luxuriate in his passion for 'Izzie-bashing'. He can't get his mind off Israel despite all the world's horror and oppression.

 

Then please start your own thread regarding the crimes of these other world hot spots.  If you feel the need to provide balance, then you are equally free to do so. 

 

Atheistextremist wrote:
You may see no difference between Nony's behaviour and my avatar but in my opinion you are mistaken and I believe the thrust of Nony's future posts will bear me out. I've argued on the boards before that monotheism should be recognised as bigotry in the same way as racism, sexism and homophobia. As a migrant to the country I live in I spent my high school years with the nick-name of 'Wog' thanks to a silly accent and I'm not fond of pointed racial insults, nor threats or insults from the religious. All these things are conservative expressions of hatred for perceived threats based on difference. 

My opposition to these groups of ideas cannot be construed as the same thing they are by virtue of mutually outspoken expression. If some one can prove to me that the beliefs we hold as atheists contain some inherent bigotry I will demur but presently the similarities between Nony's position and my own are lost upon me.

 

No I see little difference in the sense that both of you organize your arguments based upon "in" groups and "out" groups.  You rationalize your opposition to your perceived enemies in the same way that Nony does.   Everyone can find reasons to justify their arguments.   You both have groups that you target as unsavory and you stand in opposition to. 

 "Bigotry" is a very politically loaded word in todays terminology.  Just as "hate" is.  Very rarely is it ever applied in an equitable manner.

 

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying but I still do not see 'little difference' between the 2 positions. When I make points against believers I generally try to stick to the term 'monotheists' as a descriptor. Using other terms is fallacious ad hominem at best. 

Yes, I read that bizarre straw man barrage between you and Furry and sure - I understand it's an open forum for freethinkers to debate and to agree or disagree with one another.  Again, I'm just going to refer to the OP.

Nony asked if anti-zionism was the same thing as anti-semetism/racism. In his first line he using a demeaning term with a racial connotation. I suggested this term could possibly be racism. I stand by that initial observation. 

 

 

 

 

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Racist is not the right

Racist is not the right term. It has been genetically proven that the so-called ethnic purity of judaism is a farce.
However, as a distinct and identifiable group within the whole of humanity, discrimination/discriminatory is a perfectly accurate term just as it is applied to men, women, homosexuals, heterosexuals, the poor, the rich, etc.
But you can't really be racist towards a culture or religion.

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Atheistextremist wrote:  

Atheistextremist wrote:
   Nony asked if anti-zionism was the same thing as anti-semetism/racism. In his first line he using a demeaning term with a racial connotation. I suggested this term could possibly be racism. I stand by that initial observation

 

 

 

 

  Yes, Nony used an insulting term.  Incidentally, I have read posts by atheists where they used the insulting term "Christards" when referring to Christians.  Should I reconsider my atheism because a fellow atheist used an insulting term ?

 Anyway, you can hash out your differences without me.  Nony is quite capable of explaining himself without my assistance.  Good luck.

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Meh

 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Yes, Nony used an insulting term.  Incidentally, I have read posts by atheists where they used the insulting term "Christards" when referring to Christians.  Should I reconsider my atheism because a fellow atheist used an insulting term ?

 Anyway, you can hash out your differences without me.  Nony is quite capable of explaining himself without my assistance.  Good luck.

 

I'm not suggesting anyone reconsider their positions over anything insulting that's said here. We're all welcome to argue our opinions. I'm just observing a possibly insulting term in a thread entitled "Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitism?". I can't pretend I find it easy to divorce Nony from his history of pointed comment on this particular topic. Usually I just ignore it because there's no point arguing.  

Nor is Nony going to give a toss what I think about this. I'm probably an 'Izzie-hugger' and I'm definitely a 'Brittie-hugger' so I can simply be written off as a peasant who's been brain-washed at grade school on the one hand by anglo-celtic aggressors seeking to destroy Germany's pure and blameless kultur and on the other by those hideous purveyors of the global Jewish conspiracy.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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DP

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

   So, we atheists don't think just as contemptuously of Christians ?  How many times on this forum do we use invective when referring to theists and other believers of woo ?    Please, we are anything but antiseptic when responding to annoying Christians.  Lighten up.

 

sure - but of their races? I think not. Be assured I do feel lightly about Nony's hebrew fixation - probably too lightly. But I think my point is justly made. Continually insulting the same race is possibly racist at the very least. 

 

More appropriate to call it misplaced obsession.

 

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Atheistextremist
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If Nony's obsession was not teamed up

Sapient wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Izziehuggers

 

But this possibly is...

   So, we atheists don't think just as contemptuously of Christians ?  How many times on this forum do we use invective when referring to theists and other believers of woo ?    Please, we are anything but antiseptic when responding to annoying Christians.  Lighten up.

 

sure - but of their races? I think not. Be assured I do feel lightly about Nony's hebrew fixation - probably too lightly. But I think my point is justly made. Continually insulting the same race is possibly racist at the very least. 

 

More appropriate to call it misplaced obsession.

 

 

with an insistence Germany committed no mass murders during WW2 I'd be more inclined to agree with you...

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:

 

 

with an insistence Germany committed no mass murders during WW2 I'd be more inclined to agree with you...

 

  Yes, I find that part hard to believe.  What the hell was the T4 program ?  Why the term Lebensraum ?  Why the emphasis upon German breeding programs and racial purity ? Collectively one could assume that these programs were not intended to facilitate peaceful co-existences within conquered territories but to completely supplant the prior occupants, ( or to "Germanize"  non Teutonic children if they nevertheless displayed Aryan physical characteristics. )

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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Atheistextremist wrote:
ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Izziehuggers

But this possibly is...

So, we atheists don't think just as contemptuously of Christians ?  How many times on this forum do we use invective when referring to theists and other believers of woo ?    Please, we are anything but antiseptic when responding to annoying Christians.  Lighten up.

sure - but of their races? I think not. Be assured I do feel lightly about Nony's hebrew fixation - probably too lightly. But I think my point is justly made. Continually insulting the same race is possibly racist at the very least. 

What are you talking about? Jews are not a race. 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
But 'Izzies' definitely are. 

In what way? Back when I was a kid the best Kosher deli in town was run by Israel Kadetz. The sign over his shop said it was Izzie Kadetz's Deli.

Was Izzie antisemitic?

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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iwbiek wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
But 'Izzies' definitely are.

never heard of a race called "izzie."  apparently google hasn't either.  "izzie" is some people's charming term for an israeli.  "israeli" is a nationality and has no racial element to it.  if you have israeli citizenship, you're an israeli, regardless of your race or ethnicity.

Technically there are no citizens of Israel. There are only permanent residents classified by "nationality" of which the only categories are religious and must reflect the person's presumed religion. Atheists are classified by the religion of their closest ancestor who had a religion. It even refuses to use the word citizen on passports according to international convention. Technically any country can refuse to recognize israeli passports and deny entry. In practice that means countries can deny exit from Israel if theirs is the country of destination.

It is quite reasonable to classify Israel as indistinguishable from a practical theocracy. The rabbinical rule of the country is indirect rather than direct.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
I'd find the term 'Izziehuggers' offensive. Israel is a nation as genetically homogeneous as China or Pakistan. 

There is your problem. We are discussing the Israel in this reality, the one that is NOT homogenous even among the group with the delusional belief that they are homogeneous. Myself I put it down to another izziehugger who is abysmally ignorant of Israel. Note this also supports my previous post on residents categorized only by religion.

Haaretz, 30 Jan 2012

Lessons in apartheid

Zionism did not merely pave paths of ethnic discrimination in the occupied
territories. Discrimination against civilians exists in every corner of the
country.

By Salman Masalha

Scholars of the social sciences know how to defend a public opinion survey.
In their way of thinking, this is a scientific tool with which it is possible
to assess feelings and understand positions and trends at any given time.
Together with these "quiz shows" that supply the masses with a glimpse of the
mood of the public, we are also able to familiarize ourselves with the
personal feelings, points of view and tendencies of those who conduct the
polls.

Zionism did not merely pave paths of ethnic discrimination in the occupied
territories. Discrimination against civilians exists in every corner of the
country. Research institutes and the media, whether intentionally or not,
cooperate with this discrimination and also perpetuate it. In parallel to
that, the slogan "a light unto the nations" is repeated here ad nauseum. It
is therefore worthwhile comparing the situation in Israel with that among
"the nations."

Take, for example, the Population Registry Law. During the era of apartheid
in South Africa, the citizens of that country were forced to register
themselves with the authorities on the basis of their skin color: white,
black or colored. In Israel it is not possible to oblige people to sign up in
the registry according to their race or color, since the Jews themselves
belong to assorted colors and races: Some are white because they came from
Poland or Russia, and others are dark skinned - from Yemen or Ethiopia.
With
no other option, the Zionist mind was forced to invent a unique solution that
was suitable to this place, and which answers the need for separation, and
thus it was that the registration was born, of Jews, Arabs, Druze and so
forth, in the Israeli Interior Ministry.


Another discriminatory law that was enacted in South Africa allotted separate
living areas to different races. One can compare it with the local law about
selection committees, whose entire objective is to make it possible for
various community settlements to chose who will be allowed to become members
- based on ethnic background.

Recently the state has managed to peek into the bedrooms of the Arab citizens
via the Citizenship Law, which places restrictions on their marriages. And
the last word has not been said on this matter.

The election season is drawing close here. This will no doubt bring blessings
and money to all who deal with it, first and foremost the polling institutes.
From reports about the surveys we can learn that ethnic separation is alive
and well, both in these institutes themselves as well as in most of the
Israeli media. Indeed, the latter will pounce on the polls' findings.
Politicians will rush to check their popularity among herds of voters. The
disappointed politicians who lack inspiration and intelligence will turn to
recipes supplied to them by the witch doctors known as media advisers. These
witch doctors will instruct the aspiring politicians how to win the support
of the masses. Between them and their followers, they will no doubt explain
that a political platform is not as important as the show: The more the
hopefuls sweat, run around and appear on every screen, the greater their
chances of influencing the average voter.

The public opinion surveys also tell us, as noted, about those who conduct
them. "If elections were to be held now," the pollsters tell us, this party
would get this number of seats, and that party would get that number of
seats. Then, at the very end of the detailed report about this and that,
within the context of the "menu" of Jewish-democratic parties, will come the
eternal sentence: "And the Arab parties will receive such and such a number
of seats." Because in the eyes of every "educated" Zionist, every single Arab
is an Ahmed, or is assumed to be an Ahmed.

It is therefore not clear why so much time and money is being spent. After
all, the election results are a forgone conclusion: 110 Knesset seats to the
Jewish parties and 10 seats to the Arab parties - is that not so? Here is yet
another lesson in the apartheid sciences.
 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Ooooh look....

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
But 'Izzies' definitely are.

never heard of a race called "izzie."  apparently google hasn't either.  "izzie" is some people's charming term for an israeli.  "israeli" is a nationality and has no racial element to it.  if you have israeli citizenship, you're an israeli, regardless of your race or ethnicity.

Technically there are no citizens of Israel. There are only permanent residents classified by "nationality" of which the only categories are religious and must reflect the person's presumed religion. Atheists are classified by the religion of their closest ancestor who had a religion. It even refuses to use the word citizen on passports according to international convention. Technically any country can refuse to recognize israeli passports and deny entry. In practice that means countries can deny exit from Israel if theirs is the country of destination.

It is quite reasonable to classify Israel as indistinguishable from a practical theocracy. The rabbinical rule of the country is indirect rather than direct.

 

 

Genetic studies show that Palestinian genes fall smack in the middle of all middle eastern jewish populations (see 'pal' in there) and they are closer to each other than to Arabs, Africans or Europeans. Would you believe that. And it seems palestinians and jews have a shared genetic heritage, on the jewish side. They were all together and then they went off on their own way. How annoying for Nony.   

 

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

 

Given around here we rely on facts not assertions, it seems to me that all the people of the region called Palestine have a mutual and distinct genetic heritage that is pre-judaic. This genetic heritage is connected to European jewry. Israel cannot be called a genetically diverse nation in the manner of some western multicultural states. Genetically, it's possible to show a Jewish person's ancestors are from the Levant, just as it can be shown for a Palestinian. Unless they happen to be a convert, of course. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
But 'Izzies' definitely are. 

This comment didn't make a lot of sense, did it.

Nevertheless, when Nony says Izzie we know he's using a derogatory term for jews.

He's not saying muzzie izzie, is 'e?

Which gets us back to the point of the original post.

As was observed first by Joe Sobran, today an antisemite is someone Jews hate.

On one hand criticizing Israel means hating Jews. Substituting Jews for Israel as in, Jewish atrocities in Gaza in 2008, is also called antisemitic. It is apparent they really believe that "light unto the nations" bullshit. Efing blowtorches!

The pattern is obvious but some will pretend not to see it.

It all starts with believing they can read the minds of the people plotting against them which is everyone. A classic symptom of paranoia. One sets of words comes through the ears but the real meaning is heard as words in the head. There is no known cure but certain drugs can ameliorate the symptoms. The problem with izziehuggers is they enjoy the symptoms.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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You should bear in mind

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
I'd find the term 'Izziehuggers' offensive. Israel is a nation as genetically homogeneous as China or Pakistan. 

There is your problem. We are discussing the Israel in this reality, the one that is NOT homogenous even among the group with the delusional belief that they are homogeneous. Myself I put it down to another izziehugger who is abysmally ignorant of Israel. Note this also supports my previous post on residents categorized only by religion.

Haaretz, 30 Jan 2012

Lessons in apartheid

Zionism did not merely pave paths of ethnic discrimination in the occupied
territories. Discrimination against civilians exists in every corner of the
country.

By Salman Masalha

Scholars of the social sciences know how to defend a public opinion survey.
In their way of thinking, this is a scientific tool with which it is possible
to assess feelings and understand positions and trends at any given time.
Together with these "quiz shows" that supply the masses with a glimpse of the
mood of the public, we are also able to familiarize ourselves with the
personal feelings, points of view and tendencies of those who conduct the
polls.

Zionism did not merely pave paths of ethnic discrimination in the occupied
territories. Discrimination against civilians exists in every corner of the
country. Research institutes and the media, whether intentionally or not,
cooperate with this discrimination and also perpetuate it. In parallel to
that, the slogan "a light unto the nations" is repeated here ad nauseum. It
is therefore worthwhile comparing the situation in Israel with that among
"the nations."

Take, for example, the Population Registry Law. During the era of apartheid
in South Africa, the citizens of that country were forced to register
themselves with the authorities on the basis of their skin color: white,
black or colored. In Israel it is not possible to oblige people to sign up in
the registry according to their race or color, since the Jews themselves
belong to assorted colors and races: Some are white because they came from
Poland or Russia, and others are dark skinned - from Yemen or Ethiopia.
With
no other option, the Zionist mind was forced to invent a unique solution that
was suitable to this place, and which answers the need for separation, and
thus it was that the registration was born, of Jews, Arabs, Druze and so
forth, in the Israeli Interior Ministry.


Another discriminatory law that was enacted in South Africa allotted separate
living areas to different races. One can compare it with the local law about
selection committees, whose entire objective is to make it possible for
various community settlements to chose who will be allowed to become members
- based on ethnic background.

Recently the state has managed to peek into the bedrooms of the Arab citizens
via the Citizenship Law, which places restrictions on their marriages. And
the last word has not been said on this matter.

The election season is drawing close here. This will no doubt bring blessings
and money to all who deal with it, first and foremost the polling institutes.
From reports about the surveys we can learn that ethnic separation is alive
and well, both in these institutes themselves as well as in most of the
Israeli media. Indeed, the latter will pounce on the polls' findings.
Politicians will rush to check their popularity among herds of voters. The
disappointed politicians who lack inspiration and intelligence will turn to
recipes supplied to them by the witch doctors known as media advisers. These
witch doctors will instruct the aspiring politicians how to win the support
of the masses. Between them and their followers, they will no doubt explain
that a political platform is not as important as the show: The more the
hopefuls sweat, run around and appear on every screen, the greater their
chances of influencing the average voter.

The public opinion surveys also tell us, as noted, about those who conduct
them. "If elections were to be held now," the pollsters tell us, this party
would get this number of seats, and that party would get that number of
seats. Then, at the very end of the detailed report about this and that,
within the context of the "menu" of Jewish-democratic parties, will come the
eternal sentence: "And the Arab parties will receive such and such a number
of seats." Because in the eyes of every "educated" Zionist, every single Arab
is an Ahmed, or is assumed to be an Ahmed.

It is therefore not clear why so much time and money is being spent. After
all, the election results are a forgone conclusion: 110 Knesset seats to the
Jewish parties and 10 seats to the Arab parties - is that not so? Here is yet
another lesson in the apartheid sciences.
 

 

Before just insulting me by calling me an 'izziehugger' yet again, that my first comment in this thread was that anti-zionism was probably not racist but that abusing a single race endlessly, possibly was. 

Pretty obviously, I'm not going to support the sort of horse-shit Salman is rightly decrying is this piece here. But the point is this. Criticising wrong is fine but you only see fault on one side.

Let's agree, shall we, with Bob Spence's recent quote from some antiquated greek sociological titan that our central guide must at all times and on all sides be: "Harm no other".

Surely this involves achieving some sort of balance, including a balance of criticism that does not include ignoring mitigating circumstance, denying past abuses and failing to see the complete picture. 

Part of me thinks you have a full working sense of morality that is only being applied to one side of this picture while the other side fears you're using undeniable current wrongs as an excuse for liberating an inherent juden-hasse. 

I might be wrong. Apparently Israel is now a polyglot state with no defining racial characteristics and no nationality at all, while Germany may have, but probably did not, state sanction the massacre of the members of a random top-hat wearing cult with

a curious and perverse fixation on a random Cannanite pantheon and a particular focus on the gods El and Yaweh.  

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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iwbiek wrote:

regardless of nony's intent, a racial epithet needs a history of widespread use and negative cultural context in order to be self-evidently racist.  in other words, if someone uses a racial epithet that the majority of people in a given society don't recognize as such, then it isn't an indisputable racial epithet.  "chink" and "paki" have been used as racial epithets for generations by enormous populations of people, thus a person would be justified in calling racism.

The word Stan has a common meaning from AfghaniSTAN to PakiSTAN to the alternate name HinduSTAN. The majority ethnic groups in those three countries call themselves Afghanis, Pakis and Hindus respectively. In the particular case of Pakistan that is the international name it has chosen to be used. Also in the case of Pakistan members of the dominant and largest tribe will introduce themselves as Pakis. The northern and smaller tribes are inferior so they inform you they are not them by saying they are Paki.


It remains one of the mysteries of political correctness as to how Paki came to be viewed as derogatory while Afghani and Hindu have avoided the same.

A similar problem arises in Korea. 73% of the people are surnamed Kim. Their personal names are not that much more varied as they all do derive from an early clan. THEY have a problem keeping themselves straight. They give their name and commonly add their profession. To indicate it is a profession they add the word GOOK such as baker-gook. For some reason a word Koreans use every day to identify themselves and which has to be used by others, including Americans, to identify them has become politically incorrect. Another mystery for the ages.

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Brian37 wrote:

Noony wont lose his boner for this topic. Our species evolution is lost on him, everything in our species history is the fault of "Izziehuggers" and "Izzies".. Just like a white person blaming all crime on "niggers".

37% of Israelis are antizionist. 15% of Israeli Jews are antizionist. Izziehuggers keep trying to prevent mentioning Israeli atrocities by claiming it is antisemitism but calling them Jewish atrocities as they appear to want is also antisemitic. It is either deliberate propaganda or paranoia.

Quote:
He fails, just like Furry, to see life for what it is as part of evolution, in that the groups have formed as a way of survival and humans have ALWAYS done this long before either of these childish  tribes existed, even before recorded history. Tribalism and alpha male group, are a result of EVOLUTION, not the invention of Palestinians or "Izzies".

Noony has simply picked an arbitrary point in our species history and is stuck on a stupid  label. Instead of treating individuals as such.

Here's one Noony, "Not all atheists are Noonyhuggers".

Noony PLEASE KNOCK IT OFF!

You are nothing but childish bigot and no better than any other bigot.

Jews are religion, period. Regardless of any and all collective delusions and idiotic claims Jews are only a relgion. As a religion it is as much open season on Jews as on Christians, Muslims, Hindus and snake worshippers. There is no such thing as an atheist Jew. There are only deluded atheists who think they are Jews.

Is that clear enough? Jews are theists. Theists are idiots. Jews are idiots. How hard is that?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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This is patently false

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

On one hand criticizing Israel means hating Jews. Substituting Jews for Israel as in, Jewish atrocities in Gaza in 2008, is also called antisemitic. It is apparent they really believe that "light unto the nations" bullshit. Efing blowtorches!

The pattern is obvious but some will pretend not to see it.

 

 

No one here will call criticism of the Gaza strikes anti-semitic. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
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Ooer

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

It all starts with believing they can read the minds of the people plotting against them which is everyone. A classic symptom of paranoia. One set of words comes through the ears but the real meaning is heard as words in the head. There is no known cure but certain drugs can ameliorate the symptoms. 

 

Elders of Zion, anyone? 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Vastet wrote:
I can't answer this because I'm not sure what zionist even means. I have yet to see a definition that made any sense yet revealed any real difference between the terms zionist and jewish. About all I know for sure is that zionism is exclusively linked to judaism, as opposed to any other religious belief system (ie: christianity).

You can't even feign ignorance very well.

It is not possible to have missed the existence of some 40+ million Americans who identify themselves as Christian Zionists.

It is also incredible that an educated person would confuse a potlical movement, zionism, with a religion, Judaism.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Vastet wrote:
Racist is not the right term. It has been genetically proven that the so-called ethnic purity of judaism is a farce. However, as a distinct and identifiable group within the whole of humanity, discrimination/discriminatory is a perfectly accurate term just as it is applied to men, women, homosexuals, heterosexuals, the poor, the rich, etc. But you can't really be racist towards a culture or religion.
These days only neo-nazis call Jews a race.


 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Jews are as genetically

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

 

distinct as Palestinians, and even more genetically distinct than Arabs (35 per cent African), or Africans or Celts (we are 35 per cent Arab, apparently, and delightfully, 4-9 per cent Neanderthal)...

Let's talk about what a race is then. There is no such thing as a pure race - maybe Australian Aborigines who were isolated completely for 70,000 years come closest.

The rest of us are a hodge podge. Maybe there is no racism at all? 

So - you believe that Jews are not genetically a race and you believe Israel does not have a single dominant genetic heritage. Criticism of Israel or jews can never be racist then?

Do you have data to support your assertions jewish folks cannot be identified as having a common and distinct genetic heritage? 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
with an insistence Germany committed no mass murders during WW2 I'd be more inclined to agree with you...

  Yes, I find that part hard to believe.  What the hell was the T4 program ?  Why the term Lebensraum ?  Why the emphasis upon German breeding programs and racial purity ? Collectively one could assume that these programs were not intended to facilitate peaceful co-existences within conquered territories but to completely supplant the prior occupants, ( or to "Germanize"  non Teutonic children if they nevertheless displayed Aryan physical characteristics. )

Lebensraum in the east is a term used by the current PM of Israel during his first term to refer to necessity for Israel's criminal squattertown in the West Bank.

Therefore it proves Jews are exterminating the Palestinians.

As to racial purity, in Israel people politically classified as Jews are only permitted to marry others who are politically classifed as Jews. In Israel intermarriage is compared to their holy holocaust. Therefore Jews are Nazis, right?

The T-4 program is what is done in every hospital around the world today and which has been done by doctors since as far back as their have been doctors. The mistake was to make it a government program. For the same reason assisted suicide remains illegal as is any form of doing other than pulling the plug but extra doses of morphine for the pain "suffered" by an unconscious patient is accepted medical treatment even though mortality swiftly follows. And I have refrained from reporting the murder of a parent because it is accepted medical treatment. It was not the wrong thing to do.

To make an issue of it is the either the height of hypocrisy or a valiant attempt by kids to pretend such things to not exist nor that such things will never happen so they have to notice.

Grow the fuck up. This is the real world.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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It's obvious

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

Jews are religion, period. Regardless of any and all collective delusions and idiotic claims Jews are only a relgion. As a religion it is as much open season on Jews as on Christians, Muslims, Hindus and snake worshippers. There is no such thing as an atheist Jew. There are only deluded atheists who think they are Jews.

Is that clear enough? Jews are theists. Theists are idiots. Jews are idiots. How hard is that?

 

 

that the jewish faith is as integral to jewish people as islam is to the arabs of saud. Denying this is just adventures in propagation of poor original labeling.

Genetic studies show that most people who call themselves jewish have a clear genetic connection to each other first and to palestinians second.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
But 'Izzies' definitely are.

never heard of a race called "izzie."  apparently google hasn't either.  "izzie" is some people's charming term for an israeli.  "israeli" is a nationality and has no racial element to it.  if you have israeli citizenship, you're an israeli, regardless of your race or ethnicity.

Technically there are no citizens of Israel. There are only permanent residents classified by "nationality" of which the only categories are religious and must reflect the person's presumed religion. Atheists are classified by the religion of their closest ancestor who had a religion. It even refuses to use the word citizen on passports according to international convention. Technically any country can refuse to recognize israeli passports and deny entry. In practice that means countries can deny exit from Israel if theirs is the country of destination.

It is quite reasonable to classify Israel as indistinguishable from a practical theocracy. The rabbinical rule of the country is indirect rather than direct.

 

 

Genetic studies show that Palestinian genes fall smack in the middle of all middle eastern jewish populations (see 'pal' in there) and they are closer to each other than to Arabs, Africans or Europeans. Would you believe that. And it seems palestinians and jews have a shared genetic heritage, on the jewish side. They were all together and then they went off on their own way. How annoying for Nony.   

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

Given around here we rely on facts not assertions, it seems to me that all the people of the region called Palestine have a mutual and distinct genetic heritage that is pre-judaic. This genetic heritage is connected to European jewry. Israel cannot be called a genetically diverse nation in the manner of some western multicultural states. Genetically, it's possible to show a Jewish person's ancestors are from the Levant, just as it can be shown for a Palestinian. Unless they happen to be a convert, of course. 

A certain degree of illiteracy I can excuse but not when it is used solely to misrepresent the facts.

Ashkenazi Jews are NOT middle eastern Jews. Russian Jews are not middle eastern Jews. Yemani Jews are not middle eastern Jews. Ethiopian Jews are not middle eastern Jews. And, in a vain attempt to be complete, Asian Indian Jews are not middle eastern Jews nor are Peruvian Jews.

Homoeneous has an accepted dictionary meaning in English. Try using it.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
I'd find the term 'Izziehuggers' offensive. Israel is a nation as genetically homogeneous as China or Pakistan. 

There is your problem. We are discussing the Israel in this reality, the one that is NOT homogenous even among the group with the delusional belief that they are homogeneous. Myself I put it down to another izziehugger who is abysmally ignorant of Israel. Note this also supports my previous post on residents categorized only by religion.

Haaretz, 30 Jan 2012

Lessons in apartheid

Zionism did not merely pave paths of ethnic discrimination in the occupied
territories. Discrimination against civilians exists in every corner of the
country.

By Salman Masalha

Scholars of the social sciences know how to defend a public opinion survey.
In their way of thinking, this is a scientific tool with which it is possible
to assess feelings and understand positions and trends at any given time.
Together with these "quiz shows" that supply the masses with a glimpse of the
mood of the public, we are also able to familiarize ourselves with the
personal feelings, points of view and tendencies of those who conduct the
polls.

Zionism did not merely pave paths of ethnic discrimination in the occupied
territories. Discrimination against civilians exists in every corner of the
country. Research institutes and the media, whether intentionally or not,
cooperate with this discrimination and also perpetuate it. In parallel to
that, the slogan "a light unto the nations" is repeated here ad nauseum. It
is therefore worthwhile comparing the situation in Israel with that among
"the nations."

Take, for example, the Population Registry Law. During the era of apartheid
in South Africa, the citizens of that country were forced to register
themselves with the authorities on the basis of their skin color: white,
black or colored. In Israel it is not possible to oblige people to sign up in
the registry according to their race or color, since the Jews themselves
belong to assorted colors and races: Some are white because they came from
Poland or Russia, and others are dark skinned - from Yemen or Ethiopia.
With
no other option, the Zionist mind was forced to invent a unique solution that
was suitable to this place, and which answers the need for separation, and
thus it was that the registration was born, of Jews, Arabs, Druze and so
forth, in the Israeli Interior Ministry.


Another discriminatory law that was enacted in South Africa allotted separate
living areas to different races. One can compare it with the local law about
selection committees, whose entire objective is to make it possible for
various community settlements to chose who will be allowed to become members
- based on ethnic background.

Recently the state has managed to peek into the bedrooms of the Arab citizens
via the Citizenship Law, which places restrictions on their marriages. And
the last word has not been said on this matter.

The election season is drawing close here. This will no doubt bring blessings
and money to all who deal with it, first and foremost the polling institutes.
From reports about the surveys we can learn that ethnic separation is alive
and well, both in these institutes themselves as well as in most of the
Israeli media. Indeed, the latter will pounce on the polls' findings.
Politicians will rush to check their popularity among herds of voters. The
disappointed politicians who lack inspiration and intelligence will turn to
recipes supplied to them by the witch doctors known as media advisers. These
witch doctors will instruct the aspiring politicians how to win the support
of the masses. Between them and their followers, they will no doubt explain
that a political platform is not as important as the show: The more the
hopefuls sweat, run around and appear on every screen, the greater their
chances of influencing the average voter.

The public opinion surveys also tell us, as noted, about those who conduct
them. "If elections were to be held now," the pollsters tell us, this party
would get this number of seats, and that party would get that number of
seats. Then, at the very end of the detailed report about this and that,
within the context of the "menu" of Jewish-democratic parties, will come the
eternal sentence: "And the Arab parties will receive such and such a number
of seats." Because in the eyes of every "educated" Zionist, every single Arab
is an Ahmed, or is assumed to be an Ahmed.

It is therefore not clear why so much time and money is being spent. After
all, the election results are a forgone conclusion: 110 Knesset seats to the
Jewish parties and 10 seats to the Arab parties - is that not so? Here is yet
another lesson in the apartheid sciences.

 

Before just insulting me by calling me an 'izziehugger' yet again,

Would you  prefer israel-firster?

Quote:
that my first comment in this thread was that anti-zionism was probably not racist but that abusing a single race endlessly, possibly was.

Pretty obviously, I'm not going to support the sort of horse-shit Salman is rightly decrying is this piece here. But the point is this. Criticising wrong is fine but you only see fault on one side.

1) I was partly relying upon it being published in Haaretz, the oldest Hebrew language newspaper in Israel which negates any criticism of a POSSIBLY non-jewish author. Lots of middle eastern Jews have kept their "muslim" names. Why not? Salman is Solomon or Schlomo if you like. Not all of them invented fake "hebrew" names for themselves as did Erik Scheinerman, aka Ariel Sharon. (Actually the E in Erik was that funny AE single letter but I don't have that character available.)

2) That the different RACES are mentioned but not all the differences was the other rather obvious point. It does contain two real races, Caucasian and Negroid.

As to fault on only one side, you never posted a single fault on the non-zionist side that is in violation of international law. Your failure is not my problem.

Quote:
Let's agree, shall we, with Bob Spence's recent quote from some antiquated greek sociological titan that our central guide must at all times and on all sides be: "Harm no other".

We do not agree. We are talking about lawful resistance to a criminal military dictatorship. There is an absolute right in international law to inflict any and all possible harm against the dictatorial power in any manner possible without regard to any consequences. International law hold the criminal occupier responsible for all consequences as invited by the criminal occupation.

Quote:
Surely this involves achieving some sort of balance, including a balance of criticism that does not include ignoring mitigating circumstance, denying past abuses and failing to see the complete picture.

The criminal occupation can end at any time. It could have ended at any time after it began in 1967.

There is nothing to mitigate. It can only be ended.

There are no innocent Israelis. Or would you prefer I say there are no innocent Jews? Which not antisemitic?

Quote:
Part of me thinks you have a full working sense of morality that is only being applied to one side of this picture while the other side fears you're using undeniable current wrongs as an excuse for liberating an inherent juden-hasse. 

I might be wrong. Apparently Israel is now a polyglot state with no defining racial characteristics and no nationality at all, while Germany may have, but probably did not, state sanction the massacre of the members of a random top-hat wearing cult witha curious and perverse fixation on a random Cannanite pantheon and a particular focus on the gods El and Yaweh.

You are rambling. As long as there is an occupation there is an unrestricted right to resist by any and all means. There is nothing to talk about as long as the occupation exists.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
It all starts with believing they can read the minds of the people plotting against them which is everyone. A classic symptom of paranoia. One set of words comes through the ears but the real meaning is heard as words in the head. There is no known cure but certain drugs can ameliorate the symptoms.

Elders of Zion, anyone? 

I was talking about those who read or hear one thing and the voice in their heads tells them it is antisemitic.

I am talking about people saying I should see the side of people running a criminal military dictatorship without EVER having the balls to say what ever having the balls and stupidity to say just what is redeeming about the criminal dictators. People like you if I recall correctly. Care to tell me what you accuse me of not recognizing? It is about time you explained yourself. 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

distinct as Palestinians, and even more genetically distinct than Arabs (35 per cent African), or Africans or Celts (we are 35 per cent Arab, apparently, and delightfully, 4-9 per cent Neanderthal)...

Let's talk about what a race is then. There is no such thing as a pure race - maybe Australian Aborigines who were isolated completely for 70,000 years come closest.

The rest of us are a hodge podge. Maybe there is no racism at all? 

So - you believe that Jews are not genetically a race and you believe Israel does not have a single dominant genetic heritage. Criticism of Israel or jews can never be racist then?

Do you have data to support your assertions jewish folks cannot be identified as having a common and distinct genetic heritage? 

Can you give me a single good reason why I should conduct a discussion based upon your ignorance of the subject of race?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Jews are religion, period. Regardless of any and all collective delusions and idiotic claims Jews are only a relgion. As a religion it is as much open season on Jews as on Christians, Muslims, Hindus and snake worshippers. There is no such thing as an atheist Jew. There are only deluded atheists who think they are Jews.

Is that clear enough? Jews are theists. Theists are idiots. Jews are idiots. How hard is that?

that the jewish faith is as integral to jewish people as islam is to the arabs of saud. Denying this is just adventures in propagation of poor original labeling.

Genetic studies show that most people who call themselves jewish have a clear genetic connection to each other first and to palestinians second.

You can get a copy of The Invention of the Jewish People by Shlomo Sand for only $12.89 from Amazon.

www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewish-People-Shlomo-Sand/dp/1844676234/ref=sr_1_1

It is only the most thorough and authoritative expose of the idiocy of a jewish PEOPLE separate from the religion. It is in fact nothing new just the most recent and by chance the most thorouth. What you declare is "obvious" is bullshit. STUPID, IGNORANT bullshit.

There is no such thing as a Jew separate from the religion.

I will not attempt to hold a discussion based upon a nonsense assertion. How can I be more clear? I will not remain silent in the face of such nonsense. Again, how can I be more clear?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Is race defined by a genetic distinction or not?

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

distinct as Palestinians, and even more genetically distinct than Arabs (35 per cent African), or Africans or Celts (we are 35 per cent Arab, apparently, and delightfully, 4-9 per cent Neanderthal)...

Let's talk about what a race is then. There is no such thing as a pure race - maybe Australian Aborigines who were isolated completely for 70,000 years come closest.

The rest of us are a hodge podge. Maybe there is no racism at all? 

So - you believe that Jews are not genetically a race and you believe Israel does not have a single dominant genetic heritage. Criticism of Israel or jews can never be racist then?

Do you have data to support your assertions jewish folks cannot be identified as having a common and distinct genetic heritage? 

Can you give me a single good reason why I should conduct a discussion based upon your ignorance of the subject of race?

 

 

Why don't you define race for me as far as you see it. The following seems right to me:

"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, and ethnicity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)

 

The Ashkanzi obviously have a more complicated lineage than middle eastern Jewish populations but they are still related and they are still genetically distinct, apparently. A quote from Discover Magazine:

 

"Carl Zimmer pointed me to a new paper, A genome-wide genetic signature of Jewish ancestry perfectly separates individuals with and without full Jewish ancestry in a large random sample of European Americans. The title is so informative that pasting the abstract is almost unnecessary, but here is the conclusion which gets to the point:

In conclusion, we show that, at least in the context of the studied sample, it is possible to predict full Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry with 100% sensitivity and 100% specificity, although it should be noted that the exact dividing line between a Jewish and non-Jewish cluster will vary across sample sets which in practice would reduce the accuracy of the prediction. While the full historical demographic explanations for this distinction remain to be resolved, it is clear that the genomes of individuals with full Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry carry an unambiguous signature of their Jewish heritage, and this seems more likely to be due to their specific Middle Eastern ancestry than to inbreeding."

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/01/how-ashkenazi-jewish-are-you/

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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This will be

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

I will not attempt to hold a discussion based upon a nonsense assertion...I will not remain silent in the face of such nonsense. 

 

 

rather a challenge...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Oh, I agree with you

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
It all starts with believing they can read the minds of the people plotting against them which is everyone. A classic symptom of paranoia. One set of words comes through the ears but the real meaning is heard as words in the head. There is no known cure but certain drugs can ameliorate the symptoms.

Elders of Zion, anyone? 

I was talking about those who read or hear one thing and the voice in their heads tells them it is antisemitic.

I am talking about people saying I should see the side of people running a criminal military dictatorship without EVER having the balls to say what ever having the balls and stupidity to say just what is redeeming about the criminal dictators. People like you if I recall correctly. Care to tell me what you accuse me of not recognizing? It is about time you explained yourself. 

 

Criminal dictatorships are always wrong, whoever's they are and wherever they take place. All oppression of humans is always wrong. This statement, however, demands that you accept jewish populations have been oppressed. 

That they did not invent criminal dictatorship. That they are certainly not the worst criminal dictatorship the world has ever seen, though this does not excuse their mistreatment of Palestinians - I will not contest this last point at all. 

In this riposte I was just pulling your tail. Your comments just reminded me of some things I read in Mein Kampf which as I understand it translates directly from the German as My Struggle Against Paranoia

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:

Genetic studies show that most people who call themselves jewish have a clear genetic connection to each other first and to palestinians second.

 

 

same thing furry laid on me in another thread.  i still haven't seen said studies.  i'd really like to know where they got their samples from.  you do know there are several ethnicities within jewry, right?  the mizrahis, for example, never left the middle east and asia minor, so that wouldn't surprise me there.  i want to see a study done with american ashkenazi, then we'll talk.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen