Is anti-zionist antisemitic?

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Is anti-zionist antisemitic?

Izziehuggers have been trying to equate daming criminal Zionism as antisemitic for a long time.

So I had a thought, just how many Israelis are anti-zionist?

The Israeli press on the internet regularly reports orthodox sects in Israel as being anti-zionist. They say this is the fastest growing population group in Israel and is presently at 15% of the population of 40% of the gradeschool population. If we can reasonably assume the 20% Muslim and 2% Christian native population are also anti-zionist then 37% of Israelis as anti-zionists.

Is it true that 37% of Israelis are antisemitic? Or are they just rationally anti-european zionists?

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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iwbiek wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Genetic studies show that most people who call themselves jewish have a clear genetic connection to each other first and to palestinians second.

same thing furry laid on me in another thread.  i still haven't seen said studies.  i'd really like to know where they got their samples from.  you do know there are several ethnicities within jewry, right?  the mizrahis, for example, never left the middle east and asia minor, so that wouldn't surprise me there.  i want to see a study done with american ashkenazi, then we'll talk.

It is the usual BS. It shows the Judeans who did not convert to Islam and who have been in Palestine since Roman times are related to the Judeans who did convert to Islam. Thus proving religion does not change genes. A surprise to the superstitious but not to the rest of us.

Another study shows ONLY those who carry the so-called cohenim gene variant on the Y-chromosome are also related to the Palestinians of either religion. This supports the Khazar story of importing rabbis to teach Judaism when it was adopted as the official cultural religion. Further it demonstrates rabbis only appeared, along with synagogues, after priests were put out of work by the destruction of the temple. It shoots down the recently invented myth that there were always rabbis and synagogues even when the temple was functioning.

We have two legitimate studies being systematically misrepresented by self-proclaimed jews to support the malicious claims of the murderous zionists.

For the record I made the same correction to furry/pussy a couple months back when she dumped it on me. I am not surprised to see the propaganda gets repeated no matter how many times refuted.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

distinct as Palestinians, and even more genetically distinct than Arabs (35 per cent African), or Africans or Celts (we are 35 per cent Arab, apparently, and delightfully, 4-9 per cent Neanderthal)...

Let's talk about what a race is then. There is no such thing as a pure race - maybe Australian Aborigines who were isolated completely for 70,000 years come closest.

The rest of us are a hodge podge. Maybe there is no racism at all? 

So - you believe that Jews are not genetically a race and you believe Israel does not have a single dominant genetic heritage. Criticism of Israel or jews can never be racist then?

Do you have data to support your assertions jewish folks cannot be identified as having a common and distinct genetic heritage? 

Can you give me a single good reason why I should conduct a discussion based upon your ignorance of the subject of race?
Why don't you define race for me as far as you see it. The following seems right to me:

"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, and ethnicity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)

 

And now you expect me to deal with a definition from person or persons unknown.

No, I will not respond to anonymous sources as though they had either credibility or standing worth response.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
It all starts with believing they can read the minds of the people plotting against them which is everyone. A classic symptom of paranoia. One set of words comes through the ears but the real meaning is heard as words in the head. There is no known cure but certain drugs can ameliorate the symptoms.
Elders of Zion, anyone? 

I was talking about those who read or hear one thing and the voice in their heads tells them it is antisemitic.

I am talking about people saying I should see the side of people running a criminal military dictatorship without EVER having the balls to say what ever having the balls and stupidity to say just what is redeeming about the criminal dictators. People like you if I recall correctly. Care to tell me what you accuse me of not recognizing? It is about time you explained yourself. 

Criminal dictatorships are always wrong, whoever's they are and wherever they take place. All oppression of humans is always wrong. This statement, however, demands that you accept jewish populations have been oppressed.

So has everyone. It excuses nothing. No one has to "understand" tyranny.

Quote:
That they did not invent criminal dictatorship. That they are certainly not the worst criminal dictatorship the world has ever seen, though this does not excuse their mistreatment of Palestinians - I will not contest this last point at all. 

In this riposte I was just pulling your tail. Your comments just reminded me of some things I read in Mein Kampf which as I understand it translates directly from the German as My Struggle Against Paranoia

If you don't like Mein Kampf don't use its concept of race.

ALL criminal dictatorships must end. I raise the issue of the Jewish one to show you any and all killing of the oppressors is both morally and legally justified.

You do not appear to like the idea of killing off the jewish/israeli criminals. Lots of children were killed in Dresen and Hiroshima. There is no difference.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Kapkao
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Vastet wrote:I can't answer

Vastet wrote:
I can't answer this because I'm not sure what zionist even means. I have yet to see a definition that made any sense yet revealed any real difference between the terms zionist and jewish. About all I know for sure is that zionism is exclusively linked to judaism, as opposed to any other religious belief system (ie: christianity).

 

Zionist=Pro-Israel

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Kapkao
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Sapient wrote:More

Sapient wrote:

More appropriate to call it misplaced obsession.

 

Friend and part-time mentor, consider and answer me this... how many lives has our Cold War alliance with Israel costed us? Why are we so debt-friendly with them? How many wars have they directly or indirectly led us into?

 

I don't know the exact answer, either, BUT... I think the answer could be considered "TOO DAMN MUCH FOR A KNOWN LIAR". Yes, I lie sometimes. I don't create eternal vendettas over it.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


A_Nony_Mouse
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Kapkao wrote:
Vastet wrote:
I can't answer this because I'm not sure what zionist even means. I have yet to see a definition that made any sense yet revealed any real difference between the terms zionist and jewish. About all I know for sure is that zionism is exclusively linked to judaism, as opposed to any other religious belief system (ie: christianity).
Zionist=Pro-Israel

I have a question I would like asked at Republican debate.

"All of you have said you support the State of Israel. Do each of you support also support a sovereign state for Mormons? and if not why not?"

I expect the squirming would be worth the price of admission.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Kapkao wrote:
Sapient wrote:
More appropriate to call it misplaced obsession.

Friend and part-time mentor, consider and answer me this... how many lives has our Cold War alliance with Israel costed us? Why are we so debt-friendly with them? How many wars have they directly or indirectly led us into?

I don't know the exact answer, either, BUT... I think the answer could be considered "TOO DAMN MUCH FOR A KNOWN LIAR". Yes, I lie sometimes. I don't create eternal vendettas over it.

Are you referring to the izziehuggers who say Israel has never defaulted on a loan while the realists observe Israel has never repaid a loan?

You mean like the year we lost the second Shuttle NASA got an extra $500 million and Israel got an extra $14 billion?

 

 

 
 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


Atheistextremist
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Try this on for size

iwbiek wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Genetic studies show that most people who call themselves jewish have a clear genetic connection to each other first and to palestinians second.

 

 

same thing furry laid on me in another thread.  i still haven't seen said studies.  i'd really like to know where they got their samples from.  you do know there are several ethnicities within jewry, right?  the mizrahis, for example, never left the middle east and asia minor, so that wouldn't surprise me there.  i want to see a study done with american ashkenazi, then we'll talk.

 

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/01/how-ashkenazi-jewish-are-you/

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
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Fine then, Nony. Define race for me

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

distinct as Palestinians, and even more genetically distinct than Arabs (35 per cent African), or Africans or Celts (we are 35 per cent Arab, apparently, and delightfully, 4-9 per cent Neanderthal)...

Let's talk about what a race is then. There is no such thing as a pure race - maybe Australian Aborigines who were isolated completely for 70,000 years come closest.

The rest of us are a hodge podge. Maybe there is no racism at all? 

So - you believe that Jews are not genetically a race and you believe Israel does not have a single dominant genetic heritage. Criticism of Israel or jews can never be racist then?

Do you have data to support your assertions jewish folks cannot be identified as having a common and distinct genetic heritage? 

Can you give me a single good reason why I should conduct a discussion based upon your ignorance of the subject of race?
Why don't you define race for me as far as you see it. The following seems right to me:

"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, and ethnicity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)

 

And now you expect me to deal with a definition from person or persons unknown.

No, I will not respond to anonymous sources as though they had either credibility or standing worth response.

 

 

What is a palestinian? Be specific please. As far as I can tell you are simply being obtuse in order to avoid giving your arguments coherent structure. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Atheistextremist
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I've already accused you of moral

 

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:

 

ALL criminal dictatorships must end. I raise the issue of the Jewish one to show you any and all killing of the oppressors is both morally and legally justified.

You do not appear to like the idea of killing off the jewish/israeli criminals. Lots of children were killed in Dresen and Hiroshima. There is no difference.

 

 

inconsistency and here you go again. What mate, does this argument of yours justify the western allies attacking Germany in order to stop her establishing a criminal dictatorship or does some different rule apply to the master race? No - I don't approve of any and all killing at any time and calling up Dresden and Hiroshima is a tu cocque fallacy. 

The beef I have with you, as I have said about fifty times, is that you have one set of rules for your best friend Germany and another set for der juden. You have stated before on these boards "there are no innocent Israelis" so don't try to bring innocent German children into this debate now. It's war and by your crank reckoning there are no innocent children in a war.  

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:
iwbiek wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Genetic studies show that most people who call themselves jewish have a clear genetic connection to each other first and to palestinians second.

same thing furry laid on me in another thread.  i still haven't seen said studies.  i'd really like to know where they got their samples from.  you do know there are several ethnicities within jewry, right?  the mizrahis, for example, never left the middle east and asia minor, so that wouldn't surprise me there.  i want to see a study done with american ashkenazi, then we'll talk.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/01/how-ashkenazi-jewish-are-you/

In a stunning reprise to linking to anonymous sources on wikipedia we have a link to a modestly popular magazine which misrepresents a paper which does not address the subject we have been discussing.

There used to be a game show, Can you top this? I do not think it possible in this case.

Specifically it takes self-declaration of "Ashkenazi jewishness" without defining it and compares it to the population of the US INSTEAD OF comparing them to non-delared jewishness from the same geographic region of Europe. One expects the same result comparing any group of immigrants from from a specific geographic region to the average US population. In fact it is not clear how the same result could not be achieved. Consider simply averaging British, Irish, German, Latin ancestry. Would not all individual groups stand out from the average? That is what averaging is all about.

All the paper is showing, regardless of any selective quotation in the popular magazine, is that people from Eastern Europe differ from the US average. Surprise! Surprise! as Gomer Pyle used to say. Ashkenazis are the only significant immigrant group from eastern Europe in the US.

The formal "surprising" conclusion is.

Conclusions

Here we show that within Americans of European ancestry there is a perfect genetic corollary of Jewish ancestry which, in principle, would permit near perfect genetic inference of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. In fact, even subjects with a single Jewish grandparent can be statistically distinguished from those without Jewish ancestry. We also found that subjects with Jewish ancestry were slightly more heterozygous than the subjects with no Jewish ancestry, suggesting that the genetic distinction between Jews and non-Jews may be more attributable to a Near-Eastern origin for Jewish populations than to population bottlenecks.

For those who want to try to run with the second sentence, "suggesting" and "may be" are no where near the word IS in the English language.

It is also a false statement.  It should read "We also found that subject with SELF-REPORTED Jewish ancestry..." That is unforgivable in a scientific paper.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
zziehuggers
But this possibly is...

My original point was fine. That anti-zionism is probably not anti-semetic/racist but that insults directed at people on the basis of their race possibly are. Folks are free to disagree with me as suits their personal sense of freedom of expression, etc. 

Jews are a religion not a race.

 

distinct as Palestinians, and even more genetically distinct than Arabs (35 per cent African), or Africans or Celts (we are 35 per cent Arab, apparently, and delightfully, 4-9 per cent Neanderthal)...

Let's talk about what a race is then. There is no such thing as a pure race - maybe Australian Aborigines who were isolated completely for 70,000 years come closest.

The rest of us are a hodge podge. Maybe there is no racism at all? 

So - you believe that Jews are not genetically a race and you believe Israel does not have a single dominant genetic heritage. Criticism of Israel or jews can never be racist then?

Do you have data to support your assertions jewish folks cannot be identified as having a common and distinct genetic heritage? 

Can you give me a single good reason why I should conduct a discussion based upon your ignorance of the subject of race?
Why don't you define race for me as far as you see it. The following seems right to me:

"Race is a classification system used to categorize humans into large and distinct populations or groups by heritable phenotypic characteristics, geographic ancestry, physical appearance, and ethnicity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_humans)

And now you expect me to deal with a definition from person or persons unknown.

No, I will not respond to anonymous sources as though they had either credibility or standing worth response.

What is a palestinian? Be specific please.

Natives of Palestine of course. First referred to as Syrians of Palestine or some such. The Greek does not come through well. Judeans, Galileans, Samarians and others were/are all subsets of Palestineans.

Quote:
As far as I can tell you are simply being obtuse in order to avoid giving your arguments coherent structure.

It is good to read you continue to demonstrate you have no idea what you have been talking about.

Perhaps if yout found a credible anthropological source. Anthropology is a science. If you do not understand it I will try to explain it to you. You will know you have found the correct definition when its examples are Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Austaloid and so forth. You will not find Jewisoid on the list.

Yes, I know Sforzi if you want to try to run with some of his soft wording. But all he is saying is that there are no sharp boundaries between the races particularly where they are geographic neighbors. I'll explain that to you after you try to understand it yourself first.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


A_Nony_Mouse
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Atheistextremist wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:
ALL criminal dictatorships must end. I raise the issue of the Jewish one to show you any and all killing of the oppressors is both morally and legally justified.

You do not appear to like the idea of killing off the jewish/israeli criminals. Lots of children were killed in Dresen and Hiroshima. There is no difference.

inconsistency and here you go again. What mate, does this argument of yours justify the western allies attacking Germany in order to stop her establishing a criminal dictatorship or does some different rule apply to the master race? No - I don't approve of any and all killing at any time and calling up Dresden and Hiroshima is a tu cocque fallacy.

You have accusee me of moral inconsistency. And I have pointed out the superior morality of killing oppressors is always superior and is sanctioned in international law.

Quote:
The beef I have with you, as I have said about fifty times, is that you have one set of rules for your best friend Germany and another set for der juden.

Again you attack me for what I have not said. Many times I have said they, in the Nazi sense, are the same. In fact I did in fact say that in this post. Perhaps you did not understand the Dresden reference. Perhaps if you were to research it you would understand I consider them the same.

Quote:
You have stated before on these boards "there are no innocent Israelis" so don't try to bring innocent German children into this debate now. It's war and by your crank reckoning there are no innocent children in a war.

My writing style is a bit odd I agree. But I do not understand how you could honestly think I was suggesting there was any difference between killing Nazis and killing Israelis be they adults or children. It is the same response to the same actions for the same reasons.

Why is it you do not see them as the same?

 

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml


iwbiek
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when you get past all the spin all i see proof for is that the ashkenazim are all related to each other, and that they're a certain distance from arabs and a certain distance from american caucasians (and closer to the latter, it seems).  this is no surprise to me, since historically the ashkenazim were the ethnicity within jewry who most often chose to isolate and segregate themselves from the european "gentiles" around them.  in other words, they've very rarely married outside the community, so of course they're all related. 

and i realize now looking back that this seems to be your only point, and if so, i'll concede it.  i admit i automatically read into it all of furry's baggage that this kind of study somehow proves that there is an indisputable link from the jews of today to the (perhaps mythical) "hebrews" of 3,000 years ago (whom we can't possibly get a dna sample from anyway).  it doesn't.  it simply proves they're all related to each other.  i find it interesting that the druze were included in this study, since very few people would identify the druze as a separate race, and they themselves have no myth of racial origin.  they began as arabs from various places, mostly egypt and lebanon, who formed a splinter sect from shi'i islam, but today they form a distinct genetic group.  why?  they don't marry outside the community very often.

and again, i don't see sephardi, mizrahi, yemenite, or any other jewish ethinicity represented here.  it would be interesting for me to see how "closely" they are to the ashkenazim in relation to others.  furthermore, one of the commenters on the article raised a valid point: if i'm an american with middle eastern ancestry who's never self-identified as jewish, how "close" am i going to come to the ashkenazim?  that would have been a great control group to use, but i don't see it in this article.  all i see are american "whites."  

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


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iwbiek wrote:

when you get past all the spin all i see proof for is that the ashkenazim are all related to each other, and that they're a certain distance from arabs and a certain distance from american caucasians (and closer to the latter, it seems).  this is no surprise to me, since historically the ashkenazim were the ethnicity within jewry who most often chose to isolate and segregate themselves from the european "gentiles" around them.  in other words, they've very rarely married outside the community, so of course they're all related.

I have to ask how you think you get there from here. Yes a distance from the AVERAGE american caucasians. So are ALL the groups, such as Italians, Latinos, Irish, Scots, Germans. That is what averaging is all about. If you want to show there is something genetically "interesting" about eastern Europeans of the jewish persuasion then you have to compare them to eastern Europeans of the non-jewish persuasion.

I have the opinion of a jewish Israeli judge stating Jews are composed of many "ethnicities" although I know that will not make the least impression upon believers. Nor will they ever describe which ethnic characteristics are shared by Jews from Russia, New York, Alabama, Yemen, India and Ethiopia among other places. Do Tunisian Jews really do Russia circle dances, sing Hava Negilah to the tune of Irving Berlin and think they invented potato pancakes?

There is nothing in common for Jews but the religion. Atheists cannot be Jews by definition. See The Invention of the Jewish People by Sand for further details.

Quote:
and i realize now looking back that this seems to be your only point, and if so, i'll concede it.  i admit i automatically read into it all of furry's baggage that this kind of study somehow proves that there is an indisputable link from the jews of today to the (perhaps mythical) "hebrews" of 3,000 years ago (whom we can't possibly get a dna sample from anyway).

You will find quite amazingly or unsurprisingly scientific standards of both authors and journal referees defers to the political claims of Zionism. The first paper in this area showed the Palestinians and Sephardim were genetically indistinguishable. There was such a political stinks that the editor wrote to all the subscribers apologizing for the paper and requesting it be cut out of the journal. And people wonder why it is so hard to find. It is as though all subsequent papers have been massaged by a zionist political officer prior to publication.

In this paper its major conclusion that members of an average differ from the average would seem to be within the capabilities of high school student and not necessarily a notable bright one. Yet it was published. What scientific value is there is a case example of averaging?

In a publish or perish world one could read between the lines and conclude there was no significant genetic difference between non-jew and jews from the same geographic region and this paper was produced to salvage the wasted time.

 

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.

www.ussliberty.org

www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html

www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml