Why do atheists spend so much time discussing a "being" they dont believe exists?

Conigman
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Why do atheists spend so much time discussing a "being" they dont believe exists?

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........


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Conigman, you have to learn how to use the Quote function.  In a bunch of your posts I don't know who or what you're responding to.


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Philosophicus

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman, you have to learn how to use the Quote function.  In a bunch of your posts I don't know who or what you're responding to.

Aha, i had been using the "reply button" instead....


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Conigman wrote:

When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

How do you know that God's compass is good?  Maybe God is evil and lying.

 

 


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Philosophicus wrote:Conigman

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

How do you know that God's compass is good?  Maybe God is evil and lying.

 

 

Like loving each other, turn the cheek, do not murder, do not steal, lie, etc etc...

I dont think these are evil.

 


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Conigman,Are you a Mormon? 

Conigman,

Are you a Mormon?  You mentioned that you believe "salvation" is possible in the afterlife, which is a Mormon belief.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Conigman wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

How do you know that God's compass is good?  Maybe God is evil and lying.

 

 

Like loving each other, turn the cheek, do not murder, do not steal, lie, etc etc...

I dont think these are evil.

 

 

I agree that loving each other and not stealing and not lying are good, and turning the other cheek once in a while might be good.  But there are exceptions to rules -- they aren't absolute.  For example, self-defense can violate the rule not to murder, lying could help save a Jew's life in WWII if a Nazi pounded on your door, etc. 

My point was that a deity could use good qualities to deceive us, just like other people can do -- Machiavellianism.  For all we know, God could be omnimalicious and plans to send us all to hell.


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Conigman wrote: We are

Conigman wrote:

 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

The answer is because atheists care.

Atheists care about the world we live in, and since they aren't brainwashed by religion they are in a unique position to help people like yourself who are brainwashed by religion.  Atheists are in a position to help theists overcome their irrational beliefs.

It was cute of you to try and accuse others of doing what it is you do.  It was irrational what you did.  

If it makes you feel better, I know many atheists who act irrationally.  None of them do it on the issue of god belief, but they do it.

 

 

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Conigman wrote:No you didnt,

Conigman wrote:

No you didnt, but it is a complete waste of time in discussing it. As i said originally, Atheists have said that this is the only life we have, so every precious minute counts, why waste any minute on something that doesnt exist

Because over 50% of the planet believes in the thing that doesn't exist.  As a decent person who cares about others, it is my duty, my lifelong responsibility to help correct this wrong.  It is up to me to help counter the work of many ignorant, dishonest, and corrupt religious leaders and creators that have come before me.  If I don't speak up religion may increase it's dominance.  If I let religion quiet my voice as they have done throughout history either by fear, terrorism, or violent force I will be as weak as the many people who allowed fairy tales to receive a level of respect and prominence in society that should be reserved for things that are true.

 

You know why you argue that atheists should keep quiet?  Because you are brainwashed and are saying anything to stop the attack on your ridiculous beliefs.  You are the reason I speak up.  You and the snide question you ask are the reason I speak up.

 

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Conigman wrote:This is from

Conigman wrote:

This is from my point of view obviously,  but any human that breaks Gods laws is a sinner. We have all broken Gods laws including myself. That is why i call those people that protest about homosexuality are hypocrites. Jesus said, whoever has not sinned to throw the first stone, so no one did. The people who protest are also sinners.

Again, this is from my beliefs and views. When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

perhaps I wasn't specific enough.  Which laws are you referring to?  The 10 commandments or something more or less than that?  Can you define these laws?  Asserting Gods laws can have many meanings.

Personally I'll admit to taking god's name in vain quite often, perhaps daily.  And coveting, sure, especially when viewing certain, ahem, photos. 

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchins


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Conigman wrote:Atheists have

Conigman wrote:

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........

I talk about how theists get away with otherwise illegal and immoral behaviors in the name of their god of convenience. I don't think that is a waist of time. Care to talk about that instead of your god?

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Conigman wrote:Philosophicus

Conigman wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

How do you know that God's compass is good?  Maybe God is evil and lying.

Like loving each other, turn the cheek, do not murder, do not steal, lie, etc etc...

I dont think these are evil.

How about claiming that someone is going to go to Hell and suffer eternal ("forever" for lay people) torment because they didn't accept something that wasn't presented with convincing evidence?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Philosophicus wrote:Conigman

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

How do you know that God's compass is good?  Maybe God is evil and lying.

 

 

Like loving each other, turn the cheek, do not murder, do not steal, lie, etc etc...

I dont think these are evil.

 

 

I agree that loving each other and not stealing and not lying are good, and turning the other cheek once in a while might be good.  But there are exceptions to rules -- they aren't absolute.  For example, self-defense can violate the rule not to murder, lying could help save a Jew's life in WWII if a Nazi pounded on your door, etc. 

My point was that a deity could use good qualities to deceive us, just like other people can do -- Machiavellianism.  For all we know, God could be omnimalicious and plans to send us all to hell.

The bible gives us clear instructions as to what to do in the case of self defense, which is similar to the state law on self defense. Pauls letters also give us guidelines in regards to lying.

Why would a deity try and decieve us? The only being that tries to decieve us is Satan.

 


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Sapient wrote:Conigman

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

The answer is because atheists care.

Atheists care about the world we live in, and since they aren't brainwashed by religion they are in a unique position to help people like yourself who are brainwashed by religion.  Atheists are in a position to help theists overcome their irrational beliefs.

It was cute of you to try and accuse others of doing what it is you do.  It was irrational what you did.  

If it makes you feel better, I know many atheists who act irrationally.  None of them do it on the issue of god belief, but they do it.

 

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. The earth will die a cosmic death.

If everything is the accidental by product of nature - the result of matter plus time plus chance , there is no reason for your existence. All you face is death. Every single positive thing anyone will have done is ultimately meaningless All your friendships, studying, jobs, loving caring, helping others is ULTIMATELY meaningless. Dont confuse relative with ULTIMATE.

As russian writer dhostyevski out it, "if their is no imortality, then all things are permitted,  you may as well live your life as you please".

If life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, then everyone should act in their own selfish ways, no one will hold you ULTIMATELY accountable.

When you think about it, it would be foolish to do anything else since life is too short to jeopordize it by acting out of anything but pure self interest. Sacrifice for another person would be stupid.

Your views are contradictory

 

 


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Sapient wrote:Conigman

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:

No you didnt, but it is a complete waste of time in discussing it. As i said originally, Atheists have said that this is the only life we have, so every precious minute counts, why waste any minute on something that doesnt exist

Because over 50% of the planet believes in the thing that doesn't exist.  As a decent person who cares about others, it is my duty, my lifelong responsibility to help correct this wrong.  It is up to me to help counter the work of many ignorant, dishonest, and corrupt religious leaders and creators that have come before me.  If I don't speak up religion may increase it's dominance.  If I let religion quiet my voice as they have done throughout history either by fear, terrorism, or violent force I will be as weak as the many people who allowed fairy tales to receive a level of respect and prominence in society that should be reserved for things that are true.

I could ask you to prove to me that God doesnt exist, but this is again deviating from the OP. Read my previous post. In an atheistic world it is ULTIMATELY meaningless for anyone to help the other person.

 

You know why you argue that atheists should keep quiet?  Because you are brainwashed and are saying anything to stop the attack on your ridiculous beliefs.  You are the reason I speak up.  You and the snide question you ask are the reason I speak up.

No need to get angry. So me, i go to church once a week, listen to the teachings of the gospel, donate my due's to the needy, then try and live my life around the teachings of Jesus. Follow the commandments, believe that God is watching me all the time and know there is no point in trying to get away with things on this earth because ultimately i will be accountable and this bothers you? You sound like you have a problem if this bothers you and it is more anti God than a non belief in God.

 

 


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devilsadvoc8 wrote:Conigman

devilsadvoc8 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

This is from my point of view obviously,  but any human that breaks Gods laws is a sinner. We have all broken Gods laws including myself. That is why i call those people that protest about homosexuality are hypocrites. Jesus said, whoever has not sinned to throw the first stone, so no one did. The people who protest are also sinners.

Again, this is from my beliefs and views. When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

perhaps I wasn't specific enough.  Which laws are you referring to?  The 10 commandments or something more or less than that?  Can you define these laws?  Asserting Gods laws can have many meanings.

Personally I'll admit to taking god's name in vain quite often, perhaps daily.  And coveting, sure, especially when viewing certain, ahem, photos. 

Yes, the 10 commandments.


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EXC wrote:Conigman

EXC wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........

I talk about how theists get away with otherwise illegal and immoral behaviors in the name of their god of convenience. I don't think that is a waist of time. Care to talk about that instead of your god?

 


 

if anyone knows Christianity properly, then they will know anyone committing illegal and immoral behaviours and hide behind God is a lie. Human beings in general dont like to be accountable for their actions. Humans have a natural tendency to blame anyone else but themselves. It is just that some people blame God for their actions. An easy cop out.

I have been a Catholic all of my life, why havent i committed illegal and immoral behaviours and blamed it on God? My family havent done it, neither have any of my close friends. If someone is going to committ an immoral act, they will do it, it is just that Christians that do it think they can hide behind God. That is not Christianity.

What i find interesting is how many atheists "buy it" with regards to believing Christians when they do bad things and somehow God caused it. Do they really buy it or they want to believe it as to them it further justifies there non belief.

But in the washup, actions and behaviours of human beings do not prove or disprove God

 


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

How do you know that God's compass is good?  Maybe God is evil and lying.

Like loving each other, turn the cheek, do not murder, do not steal, lie, etc etc...

I dont think these are evil.

How about claiming that someone is going to go to Hell and suffer eternal ("forever" for lay people) torment because they didn't accept something that wasn't presented with convincing evidence?

Why is this affecting you so much? Jesus very clearly said, "there is ONLY ONE JUDGE"....not 2, 3 or 4 or a million. As i said if you think you know Christianity, then you would know that these people that tell you this are not the judge. Why do you listen to them? Let them say what they want.


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Conigman,"Meaning" is

Conigman,

"Meaning" is something each conscious being finds or learns for themselves, it is not something dependent on there being some "higher power".

You cannot know how we view and find meaning in the absence of belief in such an entity, but let me assure you we do, at least I do.

I will not deny that you find "meaning" via your belief in God, but that does not mean that is the only way. It is extremely arrogant/ignorant of you to assert that we can't.

No-one requires belief in God to find enjoyment in life, and in the company of and discourse with friends and family, so part of my purpose is to do what I can to help others, and future inhabitants of planet Earth, to similarly experience a more pleasant life.

I deeply value the pursuit of Truth, and since religion is the denial of the genuine, open pursuit of what is true, I spend a lot of my time explaining just why I see things this way, as well as helping them to understand things that I have learned from decades of following the progress of Science. ie human knowledge.

The grateful thanks I get when people are appreciative enough, and have time, to respond more than compensates me for the time involved.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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BobSpence

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman,

"Meaning" is something each conscious being finds or learns for themselves, it is not something dependent on there being some "higher power".

You cannot know how we view and find meaning in the absence of belief in such an entity, but let me assure you we do, at least I do.

I will not deny that you find "meaning" via your belief in God, but that does not mean that is the only way. It is extremely arrogant/ignorant of you to assert that we can't.

No-one requires belief in God to find enjoyment in life, and in the company of and discourse with friends and family, so part of my purpose is to do what I can to help others, and future inhabitants of planet Earth, to similarly experience a more pleasant life.

I deeply value the pursuit of Truth, and since religion is the denial of the genuine, open pursuit of what is true, I spend a lot of my time explaining just why I see things this way, as well as helping them to understand things that I have learned from decades of following the progress of Science. ie human knowledge.

The grateful thanks I get when people are appreciative enough, and have time, to respond more than compensates me for the time involved.

 

Thats right Bob, that is why i say life is ULTIMATELY meaningless for the atheist, not relatively meaningless.

 


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Is some one else going to tell this

Conigman wrote:

 

The leaders of the regimes were ATHEISTS who dictated and manipulated his followers to carry out the acts or else...

Atheists were the masterminds of these atrocities.

 

 

weasel to go and fuck himself or should I?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Your thought processes

 

Conigman wrote:

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. 

 

 

are a triumph of motivated reasoning. You have listened to no one, understood nothing, you simply trot out your unsubstantiated beliefs time and again. You have no idea how an atheist thinks, and no interest in finding out. You are beyond learning.

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Conigman wrote:BobSpence

Conigman wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

(Stuff Bob said about meaning)

Thats right Bob, that is why i say life is ULTIMATELY meaningless for the atheist, not relatively meaningless.

I'm sorry Coni, but you've got it exactly backwards. You believe that all souls are eternal, which would make everything ULTIMATELY meaningless. Nothing you do in this moment, be it good or bad means anything in the face of eternity. You see you could do only one bad thing your whole life, or you could be a homocidal maniac your entire life, but if your soul strectches on into eternity then no one bad or good action would have any meaning.

 

Life is uterly meaningless, if their is an eternity waiting on the other side of death. A Finite life divided by infinity becomes 0,infinity zeroes and 1, regardless of wether that life is a million years or 1 day. And a million bad actions through the life of a terrible person is equal to 1 bad action in the life of a saint, if you view their eternal souls. Hitler still has eternity to make up for his actions.

 

And God, itself an eternal entity, could only jugde us from the point of view of eternity: therefore everything is meaningless.

 

If you want, we can also discuss the inherant paradox in the eternal personhood of God. A person if by definition finite. A God cannot think thoughts or commit actions like a person if that God is infinite. This should be self-evident if you think about it for a moment, but I can elaborate if you want.

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I was spawned from original sin
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Conigman wrote:BobSpence

Conigman wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman,

"Meaning" is something each conscious being finds or learns for themselves, it is not something dependent on there being some "higher power".

You cannot know how we view and find meaning in the absence of belief in such an entity, but let me assure you we do, at least I do.

I will not deny that you find "meaning" via your belief in God, but that does not mean that is the only way. It is extremely arrogant/ignorant of you to assert that we can't.

No-one requires belief in God to find enjoyment in life, and in the company of and discourse with friends and family, so part of my purpose is to do what I can to help others, and future inhabitants of planet Earth, to similarly experience a more pleasant life.

I deeply value the pursuit of Truth, and since religion is the denial of the genuine, open pursuit of what is true, I spend a lot of my time explaining just why I see things this way, as well as helping them to understand things that I have learned from decades of following the progress of Science. ie human knowledge.

The grateful thanks I get when people are appreciative enough, and have time, to respond more than compensates me for the time involved.

Thats right Bob, that is why i say life is ULTIMATELY meaningless for the atheist, not relatively meaningless.

There is nothing "relative" in the meaning I find. It is absolutely meaningful to me.

Same as for you. You CANNOT know there is a God, or that he cares for you, you only believe it, but that is all that is required for you to feel that there is "Ultimate" meaning. "Ultimate" meanings and truths cannot be apprehended and known by our finite and fallible minds with any certainty, even if they exist.

Your belief that God is necessary for your life to have ULTIMATE meaning is still just a belief, not something you KNOW. It is an intrinsically personal subjective belief, no less so than my own experience of the feeling of "meaning" I derive from my approach to life. 

"Meaning" is what something "means" to a particular mind. It is meaningless to talk of "ultimate" meaning.

 

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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Atheistextremist wrote:Go

Atheistextremist wrote:

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

No, please don't.

 

Yes, it could be argued that both we and you are wasting our time here, but far too many religious people on this forum have left a thread just as the discussion was getting interesting.

 

I would very much like to argue this with you more. You are being contentious right now, as are most of us here, but I would genuinly like to have this discussion with you. I find it interesting, as I'm sure you do too, since you keep coming back, and I for one do not want you to leave.

 

I would still like to hear your response to my first post in this thread for example. And my second one for that matter. I could see you had read my second one at least, because you referenced Peter Parker, but you still haven't adressed the argument in that post.

 

Please stay, and if you must, then just ignore the more contentious statements against you. Just don't leave. That's always such a shame, when things are finally getting interesting.

 

I respect you as a person, and I have no intention of telling you to fuck off, but I WILL adress your arguments with my own, since you came here for that very purpose.

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Conigman wrote:if anyone

Conigman wrote:

if anyone knows Christianity properly, then they will know anyone committing illegal and immoral behaviours and hide behind God is a lie. Human beings in general dont like to be accountable for their actions. Humans have a natural tendency to blame anyone else but themselves. It is just that some people blame God for their actions. An easy cop out.

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.  No =true= Christian would do that.  Well, let me tell you what -- I've known a TON of "Christians" in my life who justified their refusal to clean up after their messes ("sins" ...) because they were "forgiven".

FWIW, I was a very devout and well-studied Christian for a number of decades worth of adulthood.  I was even a real regular Jesus Freak as a teenager.

(But then I got better Smiling )

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Conigman

Conigman wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
How about claiming that someone is going to go to Hell and suffer eternal ("forever" for lay people) torment because they didn't accept something that wasn't presented with convincing evidence?

Why is this affecting you so much? Jesus very clearly said, "there is ONLY ONE JUDGE"....not 2, 3 or 4 or a million. As i said if you think you know Christianity, then you would know that these people that tell you this are not the judge. Why do you listen to them? Let them say what they want.

Depending on the denomination, there are very normative Christian beliefs which hold that without acceptance of Jesus as your "Lord and Savior", you are destined to eternal hell fire and damnation.  This is based, primarily on the writings of the Apostle Paul (who's entire experience interacting with Jesus appears to have been an epileptic seizure, followed by being excommunicated by the Church in Jerusalem, but I digress ...) and is well supported in the more fundamentalist portions of Christianity.

In particular, it is normative Catholic belief that unless someone is a member of the Body of Christ, they are subject to eternal damnation.  Prior to Vatican II, it was normative belief that someone who was not Catholic was NOT a member of the Body of Christ, even if they identified as a Christian and accepted Jesus as their "Lord and Savior".  It is now normative Catholic teaching that a person who has been exposed to the teachings of the Church, even if they were only taught that the Church is wrong or bad, =must= have made some effort to join the Church, or they are liable for Adam's "Original Sin" as well as all of their personal sins.

Be more than happy to dig around the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  I'm a religious fanatic -- fanatical about religions, that is Eye-wink

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

The leaders of the regimes were ATHEISTS who dictated and manipulated his followers to carry out the acts or else...

Atheists were the masterminds of these atrocities.

 

 

weasel to go and fuck himself or should I?

I thought this place would be different to other forums. In other forums when a statement is made that cant be argued against, posters start to play the man rather than the issue, get personal and eventually start swearing. This is a sign that the poster has no answer, hence the need to resort to this disgusting language.

I guess this place is no different.

 


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Conigman wrote:

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. 

 

 

are a triumph of motivated reasoning. You have listened to no one, understood nothing, you simply trot out your unsubstantiated beliefs time and again. You have no idea how an atheist thinks, and no interest in finding out. You are beyond learning.

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

 

So you are disagreeing that atheists have no ultimate meaning to life?

If the world ends tomorrow, no afterlife, nothing, everything is gone, what good is all the good that an atheist has done in this world? It wont be remembered, recorded or given half a second of thought.....

Very simple


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Conigman wrote:To the

Conigman wrote:
To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. 

Correct. Meaning, in that sense, is subjective. But, that's not just for atheists. You are confusing what people believe with reality; that you believe in a source of objective meaning does not dictate that one actually exists. It either exists or doesn't exist for everyone. If it doesn't exist, then you are simply subjugating your own values to some equally subjective external source that you believe is objective. To me, that's sad, and that's not meant as an insult; people are living their lives, worshipping ancient religious morals that we no longer actually subscribe to.     

You implied that if life is ultimately meaningless, then we "shouldn't" care about anything. You're committing some sort of is-ought fallacy, as you simply pulled a normative statement out of nothing. It's an internally inconsistent position - if there is no objective morality, then there is no "should" or "shouldn't" in that sense. 

Think about the last time you had some really delicious ice cream. If you have no objective duty to eat good ice cream, then what reason is there for eating it? The reason is simply that it is delicious. If there is no ultimate meaning, then my personal values reign supreme. I don't need an external arbiter to independently confirm my values because I act on my values simply because they are my values.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Conigman wrote:If the world

Conigman wrote:

If the world ends tomorrow, no afterlife, nothing, everything is gone, what good is all the good that an atheist has done in this world? It wont be remembered, recorded or given half a second of thought.....

Scary, isn't it? 

Makes you not want to believe it, doesn't it?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Nikolaj wrote:Conigman

Nikolaj wrote:

Conigman wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

(Stuff Bob said about meaning)
 

Thats right Bob, that is why i say life is ULTIMATELY meaningless for the atheist, not relatively meaningless.

I'm sorry Coni, but you've got it exactly backwards. You believe that all souls are eternal, which would make everything ULTIMATELY meaningless. Nothing you do in this moment, be it good or bad means anything in the face of eternity. You see you could do only one bad thing your whole life, or you could be a homocidal maniac your entire life, but if your soul strectches on into eternity then no one bad or good action would have any meaning.

What the? If all souls are eternal and the soul rests in a place that is determined by judgement BASED ON what you do in this world, then everything is ULTIMATELY meaningful. If i murdered, lied, stealed and rape, i will be judged based on that. If i help others, follow the commandments etc, i will be judged on that. What i do on this earth will determine my eternal destination. The atheist on the other end, it all ends here. Th earth and universe will eventually die, therefore to the atheist, EVERYTHING IS ULTIMATELY MEANINGLESS.

Nikolaj wrote:
 Life is uterly meaningless, if their is an eternity waiting on the other side of death. A Finite life divided by infinity becomes 0,infinity zeroes and 1, regardless of wether that life is a million years or 1 day. And a million bad actions through the life of a terrible person is equal to 1 bad action in the life of a saint, if you view their eternal souls. Hitler still has eternity to make up for his actions.

What are you talking about? There is ONLY 1 judge in my beliefs, he determines the eternal destination of sould. You arent the judge to determine all the goo deeds making up for the bad deeds and vice a verse

 

Nikolaj wrote:
 And God, itself an eternal entity, could only jugde us from the point of view of eternity: therefore everything is meaningless.

How is everything meaningless when everything and what actions you do on this earth determines your eternal destination?

 

Nikolaj wrote:
 If you want, we can also discuss the inherant paradox in the eternal personhood of God. A person if by definition finite. A God cannot think thoughts or commit actions like a person if that God is infinite. This should be self-evident if you think about it for a moment, but I can elaborate if you want.

You have appealed top the fallacy of equivocation here. We can discuss this in another thread, but we have deviated enough from the OP.

 


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Conigman wrote:I agree on

Conigman wrote:

I agree on this in general, but this cannot be applied to theism.

Hypothetically, if a friend of mine believed that he was going to recieve a sum of money but i knew this was not going to happen, ie, he was believing in a lie, i would tell my friend and try and convince him he is beleiving in a lie for a number of reasons. Mostly so he wont be let down when he actually finds out he wont be recieving the money and furthermore so he can adjust his life in preperation for this lie (recieving the money), ie planning on buying things etc

With thesism, why would non believer try and convince a believer God doesnt exist? Do they want the believer not to be disspointed when they die that there is nothing? It cant be that because if there is nothing, then the believer cannot be dissapointed as they will be dead.

Furthermore, the true believer will try and live by Jesus' standards in there life. These standards are at a very high moral standard. If this belief drives the individual to live a better life, then why would you want him or her to deviate from this?

There is absolutely no benefit for the non believer to try and convince the believer God doesnt exist, NONE.

And no, you cannot use 1-2% of extremists as a reason....

 

There is a benefit for a believer to stop believing. I stand as one example among many. I am much happier. Believing in a fairy tale is not good period. Maybe for awhile but in time you just have to grow up and stop believing in something imaginary. Primary reason. Religions have held down scientific advancement as they do today. They have a long history of fighting against science. It was finally in the 1990's that the Pope apologized for the church's treatment of Gallileo. ==400 years later==. And this is one tiny example. The fundamentalist today are fighting against evolution and trying to bring in a fairy tale of the book of Genesis, which has no better teaching the hindu creation story. Michael Behe in the Dover 2005 trial admitted as much. And yet despite losing in a court of law they still are heavily trying to bring religion into a science class. It is crazy.

You wonder why we talk about this? Religion is trying hard to put us back into the dark ages. Why isn't that enough reason for you?

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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BobSpence wrote:Conigman

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman,

"Meaning" is something each conscious being finds or learns for themselves, it is not something dependent on there being some "higher power".

You cannot know how we view and find meaning in the absence of belief in such an entity, but let me assure you we do, at least I do.

I will not deny that you find "meaning" via your belief in God, but that does not mean that is the only way. It is extremely arrogant/ignorant of you to assert that we can't.

No-one requires belief in God to find enjoyment in life, and in the company of and discourse with friends and family, so part of my purpose is to do what I can to help others, and future inhabitants of planet Earth, to similarly experience a more pleasant life.

I deeply value the pursuit of Truth, and since religion is the denial of the genuine, open pursuit of what is true, I spend a lot of my time explaining just why I see things this way, as well as helping them to understand things that I have learned from decades of following the progress of Science. ie human knowledge.

The grateful thanks I get when people are appreciative enough, and have time, to respond more than compensates me for the time involved.

 

Thats right Bob, that is why i say life is ULTIMATELY meaningless for the atheist, not relatively meaningless.

 

There is nothing "relative" in the meaning I find. It is absolutely meaningful to me.

Same as for you. You CANNOT know there is a God, or that he cares for you, you only believe it, but that is all that is required for you to feel that there is "Ultimate" meaning. "Ultimate" meanings and truths cannot be apprehended and known by our finite and fallible minds with any certainty, even if they exist.

Your belief that God is necessary for your life to have ULTIMATE meaning is still just a belief, not something you KNOW. It is an intrinsically personal subjective belief, no less so than my own experience of the feeling of "meaning" I derive from my approach to life. 

"Meaning" is what something "means" to a particular mind. It is meaningless to talk of "ultimate" meaning.

 

 

 

 

This is the difference.

For example. If you fed and saved 10,000 people, that gave relative meaning to you because of your action, it may have given you meaning in your life. When you die, your legacy may live on and you have left the world in a better place and people may praise you while you are dead. When the universe eventually dies, that action of yours is ultimately meaningless.

If i saved and fed 10,000 people, in terms of this world, i will also reap the same praises as you, however, my belief is that those good deeds i did, will be recognised and rewarded for eternity, therefore it has ULTIMATE meaning....

That is the difference.


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Nikolaj

Nikolaj wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

No, please don't.

 

Yes, it could be argued that both we and you are wasting our time here, but far too many religious people on this forum have left a thread just as the discussion was getting interesting.

 

I would very much like to argue this with you more. You are being contentious right now, as are most of us here, but I would genuinly like to have this discussion with you. I find it interesting, as I'm sure you do too, since you keep coming back, and I for one do not want you to leave.

 

I would still like to hear your response to my first post in this thread for example. And my second one for that matter. I could see you had read my second one at least, because you referenced Peter Parker, but you still haven't adressed the argument in that post.

 

Please stay, and if you must, then just ignore the more contentious statements against you. Just don't leave. That's always such a shame, when things are finally getting interesting.

 

I respect you as a person, and I have no intention of telling you to fuck off, but I WILL adress your arguments with my own, since you came here for that very purpose.

I actually did address it, it is in page 2 but i was using the "reply" button as opposed to the "quote" button, that is why you think i didnt address it.

I will go and find it.


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Please define the world 'ultimate'

Conigman wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Conigman wrote:

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. 

 

 

are a triumph of motivated reasoning. You have listened to no one, understood nothing, you simply trot out your unsubstantiated beliefs time and again. You have no idea how an atheist thinks, and no interest in finding out. You are beyond learning.

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

 

So you are disagreeing that atheists have no ultimate meaning to life?

If the world ends tomorrow, no afterlife, nothing, everything is gone, what good is all the good that an atheist has done in this world? It wont be remembered, recorded or given half a second of thought.....

Very simple

 

using measurable terms and testable explanations. Ultimate is another word you have deployed here that has no knowable meaning. Ultimate in relation to what, measured by what, how and by whom? 

Individual life has meaning within itself - personal integrity is worthwhile of itself. It does not need an external moderator - if there was one it would not be personal integrity. 

The idea a record of good needs to be kept so good can have eternal meaning makes no sense at all in the context of life on this planet. The good things you have done will always have happened - they cannot be undone because they are not remembered. They had their bright moment of being. 

Billions of people have lived on the earth, many of them no doubt magnificent folk. The fact we do not know anything about them does not tarnish the way they lived their lives. An act of good matters of itself, in its own context, in its own moment. Why do you need your actions to be indelible in order for them to be considered of value?

We could argue that in a biological sense, co-operation does leave a watermark, in the shape of the genetic success of a species or sub-group but no doubt this fundamental measure of organic success will not be personal enough for you.

Despite all you imply, Con, despite all your attempts to besmirch unbelievers, people who do not accept proof of god have complete human values. They love, make sacrifices and feel the full measure of fear, awe and inner consciousness that you call religion. These things are universal human experiences. They cannot be trademarked by the application of in-group labels. Theism has stolen our most beautiful things but we will have them back. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Nikolaj

Nikolaj wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

No, please don't.

 

Yes, it could be argued that both we and you are wasting our time here, but far too many religious people on this forum have left a thread just as the discussion was getting interesting.

 

I would very much like to argue this with you more. You are being contentious right now, as are most of us here, but I would genuinly like to have this discussion with you. I find it interesting, as I'm sure you do too, since you keep coming back, and I for one do not want you to leave.

 

I would still like to hear your response to my first post in this thread for example. And my second one for that matter. I could see you had read my second one at least, because you referenced Peter Parker, but you still haven't adressed the argument in that post.

 

Please stay, and if you must, then just ignore the more contentious statements against you. Just don't leave. That's always such a shame, when things are finally getting interesting.

 

I respect you as a person, and I have no intention of telling you to fuck off, but I WILL adress your arguments with my own, since you came here for that very purpose.

This was my response.

No you didnt, but it is a complete waste of time in discussing it. As i said originally, Atheists have said that this is the only life we have, so every precious minute counts, why waste any minute on something that doesnt exist, Peter Parker included.

It is irrational


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Conigman wrote: The bible

Conigman wrote:

 

The bible gives us clear instructions as to what to do in the case of self defense, which is similar to the state law on self defense. Pauls letters also give us guidelines in regards to lying.

Why would a deity try and decieve us? The only being that tries to decieve us is Satan.

 

1. please provide chapter and verse for self-defense and for Paul's allowing for lying.

 

2. God does deceive us, the Bible clearly states it. He sends lying spirits & delusions.  

 

1 kings 22:21-22 wrote:

 

 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

“So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

 

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 wrote:

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

 

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Conigman wrote:What the? If

Conigman wrote:

What the? If all souls are eternal and the soul rests in a place that is determined by judgement BASED ON what you do in this world, then everything is ULTIMATELY meaningful. If i murdered, lied, stealed and rape, i will be judged based on that. If i help others, follow the commandments etc, i will be judged on that. What i do on this earth will determine my eternal destination.

And like I said, since that destination is eternal, what does this life matter in the face of that eternity? This life is finite, and so makes up an INFINITLY small fraction of your ACTUAL life. This life is meaningless compared to the eternity that awaits. Can't you see that?

Conigman wrote:

What are you talking about? There is ONLY 1 judge in my beliefs, he determines the eternal destination of sould. You arent the judge to determine all the goo deeds making up for the bad deeds and vice a verse 

And like I said:

I wrote:

...God, itself an eternal entity, could only jugde us from the point of view of eternity: therefore everything is meaningless.

So there...

Conigman wrote:

How is everything meaningless when everything and what actions you do on this earth determines your eternal destination?

Because that destination is eternal. What does a finite life matter in the face of eternity?

Conigman wrote:

You have appealed top the fallacy of equivocation here. We can discuss this in another thread, but we have deviated enough from the OP

I've allready adressed your OP, but you ignored my answer.

 

My argument is precisely that you are commiting a fallacy of equivocation when you ascripe personhood to God.

A fallacy of equivocation is:

Wikipedia wrote:

...the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time)

People use the word Person to describe God because, "person" can mean more than one thing: like Peter Parker or Me. One is real, one is fictional, but they can both be described as persons. God however, cannot be described as a person, while simultaniously being described as eternal: he is either one or the other. Like a square circle, an infinite person is self-refuting.

 

But since person is a word with a more fluid meaning than "square" or "circle", one can make it appear as though something can be both a person and infinite at the same time. When one does, one is commiting a fallacy of equivocation.

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Conigman wrote:

if anyone knows Christianity properly, then they will know anyone committing illegal and immoral behaviours and hide behind God is a lie. Human beings in general dont like to be accountable for their actions. Humans have a natural tendency to blame anyone else but themselves. It is just that some people blame God for their actions. An easy cop out.

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.  No =true= Christian would do that.  Well, let me tell you what -- I've known a TON of "Christians" in my life who justified their refusal to clean up after their messes ("sins" ...) because they were "forgiven".

FWIW, I was a very devout and well-studied Christian for a number of decades worth of adulthood.  I was even a real regular Jesus Freak as a teenager.

(But then I got better Smiling )

The commandments and Jesus' teaching do not in any way teach to committ atrocities or immoral behaviour.

I am a devout Catholic, why havent i gone and threatened to kill homo sexuals? Why havent i gone and murdered non believers? Why havent i gone and put slogans up saying that homo sexuals will go to hell?

If this is what Christianity teaches, then why havent i done this?

 


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You are right, Conigman,

Conigman wrote:

 

I thought this place would be different to other forums. In other forums when a statement is made that cant be argued against, posters start to play the man rather than the issue, get personal and eventually start swearing. This is a sign that the poster has no answer, hence the need to resort to this disgusting language.

I guess this place is no different.

 

 

Your language is disgusting. Stop suggesting that atheism and atheists are the cause of the worst cases of mass murder.

You seem to think use of the word 'fuck' is as offensive as an accusation that one's unbelief in a hypothetical first cause is the progenitor of the world's worst crimes.  

I have replied to your posts carefully and at length and you have ignored me and continue to repeat your tired mantra that atheism is the seat of murder.

No one here says religion is the cause of murder. I clearly stated humans were the cause of murder. But you keep going on about it.  

It's clear that in your mind atheists are evil. We can talk past you forever and you will never embrace our human commonality. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Conigman wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
How about claiming that someone is going to go to Hell and suffer eternal ("forever" for lay people) torment because they didn't accept something that wasn't presented with convincing evidence?

Why is this affecting you so much? Jesus very clearly said, "there is ONLY ONE JUDGE"....not 2, 3 or 4 or a million. As i said if you think you know Christianity, then you would know that these people that tell you this are not the judge. Why do you listen to them? Let them say what they want.

Depending on the denomination, there are very normative Christian beliefs which hold that without acceptance of Jesus as your "Lord and Savior", you are destined to eternal hell fire and damnation.  This is based, primarily on the writings of the Apostle Paul (who's entire experience interacting with Jesus appears to have been an epileptic seizure, followed by being excommunicated by the Church in Jerusalem, but I digress ...) and is well supported in the more fundamentalist portions of Christianity.

In particular, it is normative Catholic belief that unless someone is a member of the Body of Christ, they are subject to eternal damnation.  Prior to Vatican II, it was normative belief that someone who was not Catholic was NOT a member of the Body of Christ, even if they identified as a Christian and accepted Jesus as their "Lord and Savior".  It is now normative Catholic teaching that a person who has been exposed to the teachings of the Church, even if they were only taught that the Church is wrong or bad, =must= have made some effort to join the Church, or they are liable for Adam's "Original Sin" as well as all of their personal sins.

Be more than happy to dig around the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  I'm a religious fanatic -- fanatical about religions, that is Eye-wink

I dont care what other people have said. Jesus specifically said that "there is only one judge". he also said "whoever hasnt sinned to throw the first stone". Its simple black and white english. The church may say other things as ameans  to control i dont know and dont really care to be honest. But Jesus' words are very clear. let other men say what they want to say.

 


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butterbattle wrote:Conigman

butterbattle wrote:

Conigman wrote:
To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. 

Correct. Meaning, in that sense, is subjective. But, that's not just for atheists. You are confusing what people believe with reality; that you believe in a source of objective meaning does not dictate that one actually exists. It either exists or doesn't exist for everyone. If it doesn't exist, then you are simply subjugating your own values to some equally subjective external source that you believe is objective. To me, that's sad, and that's not meant as an insult; people are living their lives, worshipping ancient religious morals that we no longer actually subscribe to.     

You implied that if life is ultimately meaningless, then we "shouldn't" care about anything. You're committing some sort of is-ought fallacy, as you simply pulled a normative statement out of nothing. It's an internally inconsistent position - if there is no objective morality, then there is no "should" or "shouldn't" in that sense. 

Think about the last time you had some really delicious ice cream. If you have no objective duty to eat good ice cream, then what reason is there for eating it? The reason is simply that it is delicious. If there is no ultimate meaning, then my personal values reign supreme. I don't need an external arbiter to independently confirm my values because I act on my values simply because they are my values.

 

If the world is going to die a cosmic death, that means to the atheist, life is ultimately meaningless. Life to the atheist is ONLY relatively meaningful.

All the good an atheist does is ULTIMATELY meaningless. As they believe once the world dies, every good deed is gone with it.

Think about this.

The atheist has said, you only get 1 life, enjoy every minute of it.

You walk down the street and see a house on fire with a baby trapped in it and the mother is begging for you to go in and get it. Lets just assume for the sake of the example, that if you go in, you will save the baby but in the process you will die.

Why would you go in and save the baby?

If the world is eventually going to die a cosmic death, every memory, thought and emotion goes with it, why would you do it? All what you have done is given up your 1 chance life that should be enjoyed every minute.

It is illogical

 


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butterbattle wrote:Conigman

butterbattle wrote:

Conigman wrote:

If the world ends tomorrow, no afterlife, nothing, everything is gone, what good is all the good that an atheist has done in this world? It wont be remembered, recorded or given half a second of thought.....

Scary, isn't it? 

Makes you not want to believe it, doesn't it?

Thats my exact point i am trying to make..Life is ultimately meaningless for the atheist, all good deeds are ultimately meaningless, all sacrifices are meaningless. So why do it?

This isnt about wether i want to believe it or not. I am just trying to point the fact to which your atheist friends seem to be disputing now. Interesting.


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ex-minister wrote:Conigman

ex-minister wrote:

Conigman wrote:

I agree on this in general, but this cannot be applied to theism.

Hypothetically, if a friend of mine believed that he was going to recieve a sum of money but i knew this was not going to happen, ie, he was believing in a lie, i would tell my friend and try and convince him he is beleiving in a lie for a number of reasons. Mostly so he wont be let down when he actually finds out he wont be recieving the money and furthermore so he can adjust his life in preperation for this lie (recieving the money), ie planning on buying things etc

With thesism, why would non believer try and convince a believer God doesnt exist? Do they want the believer not to be disspointed when they die that there is nothing? It cant be that because if there is nothing, then the believer cannot be dissapointed as they will be dead.

Furthermore, the true believer will try and live by Jesus' standards in there life. These standards are at a very high moral standard. If this belief drives the individual to live a better life, then why would you want him or her to deviate from this?

There is absolutely no benefit for the non believer to try and convince the believer God doesnt exist, NONE.

And no, you cannot use 1-2% of extremists as a reason....

 

There is a benefit for a believer to stop believing. I stand as one example among many. I am much happier. Believing in a fairy tale is not good period. Maybe for awhile but in time you just have to grow up and stop believing in something imaginary. Primary reason. Religions have held down scientific advancement as they do today. They have a long history of fighting against science. It was finally in the 1990's that the Pope apologized for the church's treatment of Gallileo. ==400 years later==. And this is one tiny example. The fundamentalist today are fighting against evolution and trying to bring in a fairy tale of the book of Genesis, which has no better teaching the hindu creation story. Michael Behe in the Dover 2005 trial admitted as much. And yet despite losing in a court of law they still are heavily trying to bring religion into a science class. It is crazy.

You wonder why we talk about this? Religion is trying hard to put us back into the dark ages. Why isn't that enough reason for you?

 

No, you said it makes you happier, does this mean that it will make everyone else happier? Not sure if you follow baseball. But there is a baseballer called Josh Hamilton. He readily admits, before he found God, he was a druggie, alco, junkie, depressent on the brink of suicide. He found God which caused him to ditch the drugs, alco etc, etc, he got his career back, is making plenty of money, is a hero to plenty of people, visits and makes sick people happy etc etc....

Now , do you think he is not as happy as before? This shows that your explantion that getting out of religion makes people happy as false.

regarding science, how does religion stop its progress? Scientists are always going study and research. Dr Francis Collins who has become a theist is the owner of the genome project which is doing wonderful things to progress medicine. Latest scientific studies have shown that the universe did in fact begin to exist, which was already stated in the bible, to which many atheists thought it was eternal. In my opinion, the more scientific studies we do, the more we will find God, that is just my opinion.

 


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Conigman wrote:The

Conigman wrote:

The commandments and Jesus' teaching do not in any way teach to committ atrocities or immoral behaviour.

I am a devout Catholic, why havent i gone and threatened to kill homo sexuals? Why havent i gone and murdered non believers? Why havent i gone and put slogans up saying that homo sexuals will go to hell?

If this is what Christianity teaches, then why havent i done this?

Because you don't believe this is what Christianity teaches.

However, your belief that Christianity does not teach these things has no effect upon whether it actually does or doesn't.

In addition, many people do not like the idea of making death threats, committing murder, or condemning people to eternal torture. Therefore, they do not do these things.

By the way, people can still come to a consensus (or at least very close to it) on whether something is moral or not even if morality is subjective.

Since you continually insist there is only one judge: is there any way to know precisely how this judge will make its decision? Is there any way to know for certain whether we are going to heaven or hell when we die?

 

Conigman wrote:

What the? If all souls are eternal and the soul rests in a place that is determined by judgement BASED ON what you do in this world, then everything is ULTIMATELY meaningful. If i murdered, lied, stealed and rape, i will be judged based on that. If i help others, follow the commandments etc, i will be judged on that. What i do on this earth will determine my eternal destination.

Nikolaj wrote:

And like I said, since that destination is eternal, what does this life matter in the face of that eternity? This life is finite, and so makes up an INFINITLY small fraction of your ACTUAL life. This life is meaningless compared to the eternity that awaits. Can't you see that?

I think Conigman's point is that this life is meaningful only in that it determines whether the next one is eternal happiness or eternal suffering.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

It's clear that in your mind atheists are evil. We can talk past you forever and you will never embrace our human commonality.

Conigman, do you affirm or deny this statement?

 


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Conigman wrote:

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. 

 

 

are a triumph of motivated reasoning. You have listened to no one, understood nothing, you simply trot out your unsubstantiated beliefs time and again. You have no idea how an atheist thinks, and no interest in finding out. You are beyond learning.

Go away and stop wasting our time. 

 

So you are disagreeing that atheists have no ultimate meaning to life?

If the world ends tomorrow, no afterlife, nothing, everything is gone, what good is all the good that an atheist has done in this world? It wont be remembered, recorded or given half a second of thought.....

Very simple

 

using measurable terms and testable explanations. Ultimate is another word you have deployed here that has no knowable meaning. Ultimate in relation to what, measured by what, how and by whom? 

Individual life has meaning within itself - personal integrity is worthwhile of itself. It does not need an external moderator - if there was one it would not be personal integrity. 

The idea a record of good needs to be kept so good can have eternal meaning makes no sense at all in the context of life on this planet. The good things you have done will always have happened - they cannot be undone because they are not remembered. They had their bright moment of being. 

Billions of people have lived on the earth, many of them no doubt magnificent folk. The fact we do not know anything about them does not tarnish the way they lived their lives. An act of good matters of itself, in its own context, in its own moment. Why do you need your actions to be indelible in order for them to be considered of value?

We could argue that in a biological sense, co-operation does leave a watermark, in the shape of the genetic success of a species or sub-group but no doubt this fundamental measure of organic success will not be personal enough for you.

Despite all you imply, Con, despite all your attempts to besmirch unbelievers, people who do not accept proof of god have complete human values. They love, make sacrifices and feel the full measure of fear, awe and inner consciousness that you call religion. These things are universal human experiences. They cannot be trademarked by the application of in-group labels. Theism has stolen our most beautiful things but we will have them back. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a grave feeling that you dont know what ULTIMATE means? This thread isnt even about proofs.

 

 


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Conigman wrote: If the world

Conigman wrote:

If the world is going to die a cosmic death, that means to the atheist, life is ultimately meaningless. Life to the atheist is ONLY relatively meaningful.

All the good an atheist does is ULTIMATELY meaningless. As they believe once the world dies, every good deed is gone with it.

Think about this.

The atheist has said, you only get 1 life, enjoy every minute of it.

You walk down the street and see a house on fire with a baby trapped in it and the mother is begging for you to go in and get it. Lets just assume for the sake of the example, that if you go in, you will save the baby but in the process you will die.

Why would you go in and save the baby?

If the world is eventually going to die a cosmic death, every memory, thought and emotion goes with it, why would you do it? All what you have done is given up your 1 chance life that should be enjoyed every minute.

It is illogical

 

 

It might be illogical to you but we are humans like you and yet remain moral. When we hear arguments like yours we wonder about the person presenting it, exactly what kind of demons are they holding back. If they stopped believing in God would they go on some murderous raping rampage. Is that why you need religion? Do you fear you will go crazy? 

 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Atheistextremist
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There you are, folks.

 

Conigman wrote:

 

I have a grave feeling that you dont know what ULTIMATE means? This thread isnt even about proofs.

 

 

I told you so...

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Conigman wrote:You walk down

Conigman wrote:

You walk down the street and see a house on fire with a baby trapped in it and the mother is begging for you to go in and get it. Lets just assume for the sake of the example, that if you go in, you will save the baby but in the process you will die.

Why would you go in and save the baby?

Because I would feel compelled to do so. Furthermore, as this compulsion is likely based on strong emotions, I probably wouldn't be thinking about how logical or rational my actions would be in the grand scheme of things. I am continuing with your assumption here. In real life, depending on the severity of the fire, I would have very little chance of being successful unless I was a firefighter with the proper training and equipment.

 

Conigman wrote:

Thats my exact point i am trying to make..Life is ultimately meaningless for the atheist, all good deeds are ultimately meaningless, all sacrifices are meaningless. So why do it?

This isnt about wether i want to believe it or not. I am just trying to point the fact to which your atheist friends seem to be disputing now. Interesting.

Because it feels very meaningful to us. Furthermore, I don't care whether my actions have any ultimate meaning or not: I am going to try to improve my own life and the lives of others as much as I can because that is what I want to do--no, that is what I feel compelled to do.

 

Conigman wrote:

It is illogical

I don't claim to always be logical. 

 

 

 


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...

Conigman wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:
 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

The answer is because atheists care.

Atheists care about the world we live in, and since they aren't brainwashed by religion they are in a unique position to help people like yourself who are brainwashed by religion.  Atheists are in a position to help theists overcome their irrational beliefs.

It was cute of you to try and accuse others of doing what it is you do.  It was irrational what you did.  

If it makes you feel better, I know many atheists who act irrationally.  None of them do it on the issue of god belief, but they do it.  

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. The earth will die a cosmic death.

If everything is the accidental by product of nature - the result of matter plus time plus chance , there is no reason for your existence. All you face is death. Every single positive thing anyone will have done is ultimately meaningless All your friendships, studying, jobs, loving caring, helping others is ULTIMATELY meaningless. Dont confuse relative with ULTIMATE.

As russian writer dhostyevski out it, "if their is no imortality, then all things are permitted,  you may as well live your life as you please".

If life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, then everyone should act in their own selfish ways, no one will hold you ULTIMATELY accountable.

When you think about it, it would be foolish to do anything else since life is too short to jeopordize it by acting out of anything but pure self interest. Sacrifice for another person would be stupid.

Your views are contradictory 

 

If we don't have eternal life, that doesn't mean we can't experience meaning while we're alive.  I would rather have an eternally meaningful life too, but this wish doesn't make it true.  The words "wishful thinking" apply to you, Conigman. 

You said that atheists who care about their world are contradicting themselves because they don't believe in eternal life (or "ultimate" meaning).  In the worldview of most atheists there is no afterlife, making the amount of meaning they can experience finite by definition.  This finitude allows many decades of caring and is not a contradiction. 

You said that if we evolved, life could have no meaning because all we face is death --  but this just means that our meaning is finite.  I expect you to prove that eternal meaning exists; we already have evidence that finite meaning exists.  Justify your claim that meaning is eternal.

You brought up Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov, where Ivan concludes that without God and immortality, everything is permissible.  This is nonsense.  First of all, it doesn't matter if we can't be held eternally accountable.  Why should it?  Rule breakers can get their punishment here and now.  Our goal as an international society should be to negotiate values so we can live peacefully, successfully, and happily.  If you want eternal life, do work in biotechnology; become a transhumanist and make it happen for real. 

Finally, I have a question about your last comment.  Why would you save a stranger from a burning building?  The human reason is biologically hard-wired empathy that exists in brains to various degrees and is shaped by our environment; organisms work better in groups, and cooperation was naturally selected for.