Why do atheists spend so much time discussing a "being" they dont believe exists?

Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
Why do atheists spend so much time discussing a "being" they dont believe exists?

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
DP

DP

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
We are now going into

We are now going into a different topic, but atheists talking about the personaity or characteristics of a being they dont believe exists is irrational.

Atheists talking about the personality or characteristics of God is as relevant as talking about what Big foots favourite drink is or what big foot does on weekends or what makes big foot angry.

It is illogical.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
This assertion is unsupported by the data

Conigman wrote:

Stalin, Hitler and POT WERE ATHEISTS, FULL STOP.

I have said that atheism did not cause these atrocities but the people who commiited these atrocities did not believe in a religion, therefore the claim that religion is the sole cause  of atrocities is FALSE. We have direct evidence that if religion did not exist, people will still committ atorocities. 

 

But I agree with you that religion is not the sole cause of atrocity, humans are. Still. Religions love to call for the death of the infidel, do they not? They also claim to own human morality - they insist only their doctrine is 'good' and that all others are sent from satan. They insist all who do not agree will be burned. Jesus and Co certainly plan a big burning on judgement day. Bigger than any other. Billions of burning, tortured humans. Makes you wonder - who'd come up with a concept like that?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
But in your world of moral

But in your world of moral relativism, why does this bother you? Isnt morals relative in your world? If you like vanilla ice cream and i like chocolate, would you be upset if i said chcolate is better than vanilla? You wont be, you would shrug your shoulders and say everyone has different tastes. Chocilate is not absolutely better than vanilla, just like morals in an atheistic world, each person decides what is right and wrong. It is just one view over another. If one person says there morals are better , then this is just one person expressing there view over another, just like the choc and vanilla example.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:Does this

Conigman wrote:

Does this sound like a Christian to you?

Some of Hitlers private statements.

"The best thing to do is let Christianity die a natural death, Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity, The only way to get rid of Christianity is to let it die little Christianity by little,  Christianity the liar".

Hitlers PUBLIC statememts were aimed at winning the population for control and power, a very clever manipulation. Privately, very clealry, he wasnt a Christian as the statements above prove.

Oh I get it... therefore God exists.  Smart stuff.

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Is talking about the hypothetical

Conigman wrote:

We are now going into a different topic, but atheists talking about the personaity or characteristics of a being they dont believe exists is irrational.

Atheists talking about the personality or characteristics of God is as relevant as talking about what Big foots favourite drink is or what big foot does on weekends or what makes big foot angry.

It is illogical.

 

characteristics of life on other planets irrational? The hypothetical ignition of abiogenesis? The hypothetical cause of cancer, global warming, halitosis? There's nothing wrong with hypothesis - so long as you are open about the absence of supporting facts. 

Personally, I think atheists should avoid accusing god of being evil and so not real. But if christians insist god is perfect while their doctrine shows him to be the opposite, then highlighting these inconsistencies is useful.

Human imagination allows us to own the momentary possibility of a range of realities. This is not irrational. Not unless we insist the unprovable god is actually real and we start chatting with him in our heads, that is. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
Uhm, how did you think that

Uhm, how did you think that statement is trying to prove God exists?

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
The threats at the core of

Conigman wrote:

What are these threats you talk of? That one will go to hell if they do not repent? If you dont believe a supernatural world, then why does this bother you?

 

christian doctrine breach the United Nations International Charter of Human Rights. 

 

Article 5: No violence, no threats of violence.

Article 18: Freedom of thought and expression - no thought crime.

Article 19: Freedom of religion and irreligion.

Article 30: No freedoms can be used to breach the freedoms of other individuals. 

 

Atheist philosophy is generally secular humanism which is indistinguishable from the elevated morality of believers but minus the doctrine of threats. 

I agree the threats pertain to the supernatural world but they are made here in this world. Muslims cheerfully murder atheists and apostates in order to attain paradise. 

In the past, christians have killed for god, too. The fact is, threats are a form of violence. In my country you can be imprisoned for making violent threats.

So - threats are a crime. Christian doctrine is a crime. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
I think you have these

I think you have these confused now. There is a cause of cancer, we dont know it yet, global warming, abiogensis etc, nothing wrong at all in discussing these hypotheticals, as THERE IS A CAUSE FOR these things that you mentioned. It exists, what they are is unknown, but we can discuss hypotheticals.

If i said to you that there was no cause of cancers, none at all, it was proven there wasnt any cause, would it then be logical to talk about hypothetical causes when in fact it has been proven there was no cause? No its not.

To the atheist, God doesnt exist, therefore the atheist talking about the personality of God is as logical as you and i talking about what makes Big foot angry.

It is incorrect to say that God is far from perfect, as by definition, God is perfect. In your view, why do you think God is not perfect?

 

Let me also ask you, what would it take for you to believe God exists?

 

 

 


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
Lets stick to Christianity

Lets stick to Christianity as i am not a muslim and dont believe in Islam.

Regarding those articles, are you saying that the Chrsitian Doctrine for example breched the "no violence" article? So Christians were violent?

Furthermore, i never said Christians were perfect, far from it, if Christians were perfect, then there would be no need for Christianity.

But we see atheists (non believers) make threats, murder, steal and rape just like anyeone else.  Again, not saying that atheism is causing this, but Christians making threats, killing etc, are not true Christians as our doctrine clealry teaches us not to do this.

 

 

 


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
There is no such thing as moral relativism

 

Conigman wrote:

But in your world of moral relativism, why does this bother you? Isnt morals relative in your world? If you like vanilla ice cream and i like chocolate, would you be upset if i said chcolate is better than vanilla? You wont be, you would shrug your shoulders and say everyone has different tastes. Chocilate is not absolutely better than vanilla, just like morals in an atheistic world, each person decides what is right and wrong. It is just one view over another. If one person says there morals are better , then this is just one person expressing there view over another, just like the choc and vanilla example.

 

All humans go through a personal journey of moral development from the time they are born until the time they die. There are 3 key stages of the process.

Pre-convention morality - based on rewards and threats. Conventional morality - based on what your family or in-group believe is right. Post conventional morality - based on what is good from the perspective of another individual. This last requires the application of empathy and a higher level of emotional intelligence, it requires the third person put their personal good to one side. 

The idea morality comes from god and not from human experience and physiology is utterly unsupported by knowable proofs. 

This idea atheists have no basis for behaving well is part of the core ad hominem of christianity - you will recall I said I argued against monotheism because it claims to own morality? You just proved my argument. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
Ok, need to head out now.Ill

Ok, need to head out now.

Ill check in later


latincanuck
atheist
latincanuck's picture
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2007-06-01
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:Lets stick to

Conigman wrote:

Lets stick to Christianity as i am not a muslim and dont believe in Islam.

Regarding those articles, are you saying that the Chrsitian Doctrine for example breched the "no violence" article? So Christians were violent?

Furthermore, i never said Christians were perfect, far from it, if Christians were perfect, then there would be no need for Christianity.

But we see atheists (non believers) make threats, murder, steal and rape just like anyeone else.  Again, not saying that atheism is causing this, but Christians making threats, killing etc, are not true Christians as our doctrine clealry teaches us not to do this.

 

 

 

That is actually quite false, christian doctrine has changed (much like the catholic churches stance on jews say from 343AD till sometime around 1945AD) and continues to change, however call to violence is there, it is that society has morally changed and therefore no longer allows it to happen. Say to gays for being gay, a commandment to kill them, or of course you are going to cherry pick the bible for what you will state is that it doesn't advocate violence, ignoring any and all verses that do, or claim they are no longer valid because of jesus. The game is the same, however the reason we discuss it, is simple, people make the claim for god, we discuss, if you have such a problem, to bad for you.


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
As I said

Conigman wrote:

I think you have these confused now. There is a cause of cancer, we dont know it yet, global warming, abiogensis etc, nothing wrong at all in discussing these hypotheticals, as THERE IS A CAUSE FOR these things that you mentioned. It exists, what they are is unknown, but we can discuss hypotheticals.

If i said to you that there was no cause of cancers, none at all, it was proven there wasnt any cause, would it then be logical to talk about hypothetical causes when in fact it has been proven there was no cause? No its not.

To the atheist, God doesnt exist, therefore the atheist talking about the personality of God is as logical as you and i talking about what makes Big foot angry.

It is incorrect to say that God is far from perfect, as by definition, God is perfect. In your view, why do you think God is not perfect?

 

Let me also ask you, what would it take for you to believe God exists?

 

agnostic atheists would say there is insufficient proof of a supernatural god. Few atheists insist there is absolutely, positively, no god. 

Consider that no christian ascribes knowable characteristics to god that are inhuman. God possesses all the standard human qualities but is alleged to possess them in a state of perfection.

Perfection is a label we give to things that give us a strong feeling. We can also apply it to qualities that can be measured empirically but this does not apply to a god. 

You have said god is, by definition, perfect. How did you measure this perfection? What do you mean by this perfection? In relation to what and to the senses of whom? As a measurable quality, perfection is meaningless. 

On the topic of characteristics, the hypothetical christian god's omni attributes are inconceivable, untestable and incoherent. Omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent are words that have no real meaning at all. 

And can you see how it is possible for me to question you on the nature of your claimed god, without agreeing such a being exists? 

Finally, deciding what proof one would need to accept a hypothetical first cause existing outside of our universe and thus outside of space time is beyond the capacities of the human brain. 

It is possible to believe in such a thing but it is not possible to comprehend it. I contend the mental states of belief and comprehension are completely different. Belief is a feeling. Understanding is a process. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:Stalin,

Conigman wrote:

Stalin, Hitler and POT WERE ATHEISTS, FULL STOP.

I have said that atheism did not cause these atrocities but the people who commiited these atrocities did not believe in a religion, therefore the claim that religion is the sole cause  of atrocities is FALSE. We have direct evidence that if religion did not exist, people will still committ atorocities. 

I getting the impression your reading comprehension is off. Perhaps English is not your first language. AE, said clearly none of these guys personally murdered everyone you claim. The people who did the killing were religious. You understand Hitler used religion to motivate his people. How could they not be religious at the same time? No country was suddenly struck atheist. The full stop is in your brain and not in what happened. Religion has always been a far more powerful motivator tham the absence of it. That is the point. 

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
I agree with you unreservedly

 

Conigman wrote:

 

Lets stick to Christianity as i am not a muslim and dont believe in Islam.

Regarding those articles, are you saying that the Chrsitian Doctrine for example breched the "no violence" article? So Christians were violent?

Furthermore, i never said Christians were perfect, far from it, if Christians were perfect, then there would be no need for Christianity.

But we see atheists (non believers) make threats, murder, steal and rape just like anyeone else.  Again, not saying that atheism is causing this, but Christians making threats, killing etc, are not true Christians as our doctrine clealry teaches us not to do this.

 

 

humans are violent. Religious humans, atheist humans, all humans. But I do think in the modern world, sanitised and politically correct as it is, that racism, sexism, homophobia, hate crime, out-group xenophobia and social exclusion for non conformists all survive in the time capsule of monotheistic doctrine. If I were to write an atheist bible that called for the murder of muslims, lauded the death of christians, suggested jewish folk were immoral by default, I would not find a publisher prepared to print it. 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:Lets stick to

Conigman wrote:

Lets stick to Christianity as i am not a muslim and dont believe in Islam.

Why?  At least Muslims are monotheists.  Christians have the "Three gods for the price of one!" thing going.

Conigman wrote:
Regarding those articles, are you saying that the Chrsitian Doctrine for example breched the "no violence" article? So Christians were violent?

Absolutely, Christianity is based on violence.

The Christian religion is itself a form of extortion -- "Believe, or spend all of Eternity in HELL!"  Oh, and just to make things worse, G-d isn't going to show up on a regular enough basis for you to have certainty of G-d's existence.  Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

One of the less discussed aspects about why Christians have historically supported violence against non-Christians is that forced conversion is better than that "Eternity in HELL!" alternative, so might as well mistreat the non-believers now to avoid a lot more suffering later.  Do you know what's interesting about the difference between Christians and Muslims?  When Christians conquered a land, they just went out and murdered whoever didn't convert.  Muslims at least enslaved and taxed into poverty the people they conquered who refused to convert.  I think that's an interesting difference.

What convinced me that Christianity was wrong was that a person who'd lived their entire live without harming anyone, someone who is a real credit to their species, loved their neighbor and all that, but rejected Jesus goes to Hell while a serial murderer who had a last minute "confession of faith" before being wheeled off to the gas chamber / electric chair / lethal injection room gets to go to Heaven.  Not only did that strike me as profoundly unfair, it also seems to me that it promotes atrocities because the "Christian Believer" never really gets held accountable for their actions.  Sure, they get put to death by the State, but then they get to hang out with Jesus in Happy Christian Paradise for all Eternity.  Sort of like Muslims who blow up women and children.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
This is true

FurryCatHerder wrote:

What convinced me that Christianity was wrong was that a person who'd lived their entire live without harming anyone, someone who is a real credit to their species, loved their neighbor and all that, but rejected Jesus goes to Hell while a serial murderer who had a last minute "confession of faith" before being wheeled off to the gas chamber / electric chair / lethal injection room gets to go to Heaven.  Not only did that strike me as profoundly unfair, it also seems to me that it promotes atrocities because the "Christian Believer" never really gets held accountable for their actions.  Sure, they get put to death by the State, but then they get to hang out with Jesus in Happy Christian Paradise for all Eternity.  Sort of like Muslims who blow up women and children.

 

I always wondered, too, whether or not at it's heart, the death of jesus for sins was not a simple cop-out to assuage the legitimate guilt of sinners. Guilt and shame are powerful corrective devices and annoyingly, they last a lifetime. 

Being 'born again' is really just code for 'getting off scot-free'. 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:But the

Conigman wrote:

But the church is seperated from the state, so the decisions of the church DONT AFFECT non believers. If you are gay, dont believe in God, then why should it affect you. Gay marriages are a decsion made by the state. The curch doesnt make it legal / illegal, but the state does.

There are many people who are protesting to try to get the laws prohibiting homosexual marriage overturned. There are also a fair number of people protesting to keep these laws in place. Almost every person who is protesting to keep these laws in place is doing so because their religion (mainly Christianity) doesn't sanction homosexual marriage.

Conigman wrote:

Furthermore, when people try to impose their thoughts and view on others, isnt everyone entitiled to their opinion? Why are Christians different to anyone else?

I completely agree with you. However, when people try to get their opinions, thoughts, or views made into law they ARE imposing them on others. They are forcing them on others using the power of government. When people disagree, they should discuss it: just like all of us are doing right now.

 


blacklight915
blacklight915's picture
Posts: 544
Joined: 2011-12-23
User is offlineOffline
FurryCatHerder wrote:The

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The Christian religion is itself a form of extortion -- "Believe, or spend all of Eternity in HELL!"  Oh, and just to make things worse, G-d isn't going to show up on a regular enough basis for you to have certainty of G-d's existence.  Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

What convinced me that Christianity was wrong was that a person who'd lived their entire live without harming anyone, someone who is a real credit to their species, loved their neighbor and all that, but rejected Jesus goes to Hell while a serial murderer who had a last minute "confession of faith" before being wheeled off to the gas chamber / electric chair / lethal injection room gets to go to Heaven.  Not only did that strike me as profoundly unfair, it also seems to me that it promotes atrocities because the "Christian Believer" never really gets held accountable for their actions.  Sure, they get put to death by the State, but then they get to hang out with Jesus in Happy Christian Paradise for all Eternity.  Sort of like Muslims who blow up women and children.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."

Whoa! A theist who doesn't condemn people to eternal suffering merely for disagreeing with her! What a concept!

 

Dear Furry,

Thank you so much for not disqualifying my daily efforts to help other people merely because I don't believe in something I see no evidence for.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

PS: I really should have noticed this earlier...

 


Nikolaj
Superfan
Nikolaj's picture
Posts: 503
Joined: 2008-04-27
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:You cant talk

Conigman wrote:

You cant talk about the personality or characteristics of a being that never existed.

 

Peter Parker exibits many charactaristics of Manic Depression. When he is Peter Parker he is sullen, sad, and introvert, but when he dresses up as Spiderman he becomes elated, outgoing, quipy and sarcastic, and very active.

 

I just talked about the personality and characteristics of a being that doesn't exist. Did I just break the laws of physics or something? Is the universe going to implode under the weight of this paradox?

Well I was born an original sinner
I was spawned from original sin
And if I had a dollar bill for all the things I've done
There'd be a mountain of money piled up to my chin


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
Yes

blacklight915 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The Christian religion is itself a form of extortion -- "Believe, or spend all of Eternity in HELL!"  Oh, and just to make things worse, G-d isn't going to show up on a regular enough basis for you to have certainty of G-d's existence.  Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

What convinced me that Christianity was wrong was that a person who'd lived their entire live without harming anyone, someone who is a real credit to their species, loved their neighbor and all that, but rejected Jesus goes to Hell while a serial murderer who had a last minute "confession of faith" before being wheeled off to the gas chamber / electric chair / lethal injection room gets to go to Heaven.  Not only did that strike me as profoundly unfair, it also seems to me that it promotes atrocities because the "Christian Believer" never really gets held accountable for their actions.  Sure, they get put to death by the State, but then they get to hang out with Jesus in Happy Christian Paradise for all Eternity.  Sort of like Muslims who blow up women and children.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."

Whoa! A theist who doesn't condemn people to eternal suffering merely for disagreeing with her! What a concept!

 

Dear Furry,

Thank you so much for not disqualifying my daily efforts to help other people merely because I don't believe in something I see no evidence for.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

PS: I really should have noticed this earlier...

 

 

Refreshing, isn't it. If only all god folk would worship the lord-concept of Furry. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:
blacklight915 wrote:
Whoa! A theist who doesn't condemn people to

eternal suffering

merely for

disagreeing

with her! What a concept!

Dear Furry,

Thank you so much for not disqualifying my daily efforts to help other people merely because I don't believe in something I see no evidence for.

Sincerely,

Scott

PS: I really should have noticed this earlier...

Refreshing, isn't it. If only all god folk would worship the lord-concept of Furry.

I'm just waiting for the Christian dude to come back and tell me I'm going to Hell (not that Jews believe in Hell ...) because I don't love up on Jesus.

And the great thing about this thread -- I get to talk about G-d all I want because I BELIEVE G-D EXISTS!!!

That'll surely put a kink in things Eye-wink

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3716
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Claiming that immoral,

Claiming that immoral, self-proclaimed Christians are not Christians is question begging. It just defines the subset that is moral as Christians, so it is definitively true, unfalsifiable, and completely useless.

A world where Christianity makes people moral is then indistinguishable, on this issue, from a world where Christianity is just as false as all other religions; in the latter case, there are moral Christians simply because there are moral people in every group. Ditto, a Muslim could claim that those supporting Jihad are not "real" Muslims because "real" Muslims are taught to be peaceful - the same for Jews, Scientologists, etc., even atheists.

If Christianity actually improved people's morality at all, then we should expect the entire group of people that consider themselves Christians to be more moral. The portion of the group that is "real" Christians would all be very moral, and the portion of the group that is "fake" Christians would, I assume, be the same, on average, as a group of non-Christians. So overall, the group would be significantly more moral than other groups on every measurable characteristic. We don't see this.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:But we see

Conigman wrote:

But we see atheists (non believers) make threats, murder, steal and rape just like anyeone else.  Again, not saying that atheism is causing this, but Christians making threats, killing etc, are not true Christians as our doctrine clealry teaches us not to do this.

The facts are that atheists make up 10-40% of the population and make up less than 1% of the prison population. 

Do atheists do bad things?  Yes.  Are they capable of bad?  Yes. 

What makes an atheist different than a Christian in terms of belief morality is that the Christian thinks they are people full of sin and Jesus will forgive them for their sins.  Atheists on the other hand live knowing that they are responsible to themselves and the people around them, their actions impact the lives of others, and illegal actions have repercussions (ie jail).

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3716
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
I guess I'll back and

I guess I'll back and address the OP as well.

Conigman wrote:
If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

You just sort of answered your own question. I've never even seen a very popular big foot, tooth fairy or Leprechaun website because they aren't worshipped by the majority of the world. 

That said, I am not so much concerned with theism as I am with irrational claims in general. I emphasize being open-minded and reasonable. Theism is just a specific unjustified claim.

Conigman wrote:
Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists.

Actually, no. Many of them were theists. Hitler was a Creationist. The common feature is that they and their followers were irrational; the governments trampled on human rights, and they often had an in-group out-group mentality.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


Louis_Cypher
BloggerSuperfan
Louis_Cypher's picture
Posts: 529
Joined: 2008-03-22
User is offlineOffline
No

Conigman wrote:

Yet you conviniently miss out that Stalin , Pot and Hitler have killed over 100 million people.  Again, i am not saying that Atheism caused these murders, but rather, they didnt believe in a religion, yet non belevers have commited the biggest atrocities in the history of humanity, nothing even comes close.

Therefore, your objection is a false one. If the history of humaity shows that ONLY religious beliefs resulted in atrocities, then your argument has validity to it, clealry this is not the case, therefore your argument doesnt have any legs.

 

Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot all managed to create a cult of personality around themselves, they didn't commit atrocities in the name of any belief except that of political expediency. Hitler, was a Catholic, not an atheist. If he had mad an act of true contrition before his death he'd be in heaven, because he was never excommunicated by the church.

And junior, do NOT piss on my shoes and tell me it's raining... You are damned well saying that atheism caused those murders, you are just too chickenshit to say it straight up, because you know just how ridiculous it is.

LC >;-}>

 

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


Philosophicus
Philosophicus's picture
Posts: 362
Joined: 2009-12-16
User is offlineOffline
...

FurryCatHerder wrote:

There was a book back in the '60s, "Logan's Run" (made into a movie in the '70s) which had this utopian society in which you got whatever you needed.  So long as you agreed to die when your time came.  In the end, people chose to leave utopia for the "real world" of pain, suffering and old age.  There have been a number of other instances of this theme -- chosing pain and suffering over utopia and I'm not aware that anyone =wants= "utopia" given the limitations that always seem to come along with it.  =I= don't want "utopia" as I understand "utopia" would exist.  I've had arthritis since my early 40's from too much bodily abuse and while I think I might have overdone it a bit, I'd never trade those experiences for having all my body parts in working order when I kick the bucket in 30 or 40 years.

I'm convinced that the only people who =want= "Utopia" are people who only want to propose "Utopia" as an alternative Universe to the one folks like me assert G-d created.

 

If you wouldn't want to live in a world where being happy meant no free will, then that wouldn't count as a utopia.  If you were to want a utopia, what would it be like?  So far it sounds like it would be a masochist's paradise. 

Maybe in a few million years a utopia will be possible on earth, or maybe on a galaxy far, far away, a utopia already exists.  This civilization might have been around for millions or billions of years and figured out the best technology to enhance life.  I don't believe this civilizaiton exists, but I wanted to portray the probable time scale involved in a bottom-up effort toward utopia, compared to a top-down variety espoused by a particular deity.  And some pain is necessary for survival, both psychological and physical; I'm not creative enough to think of a way to ensure survival and happiness without the necessity of some pain.  (A dose of omniscience would help.)

Do you think this is the best of all possible worlds?

 

 


Philosophicus
Philosophicus's picture
Posts: 362
Joined: 2009-12-16
User is offlineOffline
...

Nikolaj wrote:

Conigman wrote:

You cant talk about the personality or characteristics of a being that never existed.

 

Peter Parker exibits many charactaristics of Manic Depression. When he is Peter Parker he is sullen, sad, and introvert, but when he dresses up as Spiderman he becomes elated, outgoing, quipy and sarcastic, and very active.

 

I just talked about the personality and characteristics of a being that doesn't exist. Did I just break the laws of physics or something? Is the universe going to implode under the weight of this paradox?

 

I want to hear Conigman respond to this.  Certain theists don't understand that we can talk about fiction -- and that doesn't turn fiction into fact.  I was debating a Christian once about the existence of God, and he asked me, "How can you acknowledge something that doesn't exist?"  And I said, "You mean... like a unicorn?  I just acknowledged a non-existent being."  Someone in the room said that unicorns were in the Bible, so I had to use other examples like fairies, Thor, Vishnu, goblins, etc. 

I've met Christians that believe that all those mythological beings exist, like goblins, fairies, trolls, ghosts, aliens, hobbits, etc.  They think they're all really demons.  I suppose that their standards of evidence are so low anyway since they believe in a deity, that a few trolls and goblins and fairies is no big deal.


ex-minister
atheistHigh Level ModeratorSilver Member
ex-minister's picture
Posts: 1708
Joined: 2010-01-29
User is offlineOffline
blacklight915

blacklight915 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

The Christian religion is itself a form of extortion -- "Believe, or spend all of Eternity in HELL!"  Oh, and just to make things worse, G-d isn't going to show up on a regular enough basis for you to have certainty of G-d's existence.  Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me.

What convinced me that Christianity was wrong was that a person who'd lived their entire live without harming anyone, someone who is a real credit to their species, loved their neighbor and all that, but rejected Jesus goes to Hell while a serial murderer who had a last minute "confession of faith" before being wheeled off to the gas chamber / electric chair / lethal injection room gets to go to Heaven.  Not only did that strike me as profoundly unfair, it also seems to me that it promotes atrocities because the "Christian Believer" never really gets held accountable for their actions.  Sure, they get put to death by the State, but then they get to hang out with Jesus in Happy Christian Paradise for all Eternity.  Sort of like Muslims who blow up women and children.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."

Whoa! A theist who doesn't condemn people to eternal suffering merely for disagreeing with her! What a concept!

 

Dear Furry,

Thank you so much for not disqualifying my daily efforts to help other people merely because I don't believe in something I see no evidence for.

Sincerely,

Scott

 

PS: I really should have noticed this earlier...

 

Well, the hole in her logic is that she believes in an afterlife and refers to the possibility of an a atheist being in heaven saying whoa how did I get here and the religious person standing in hell saying WTF. I think there might be another population who went into some void in her view. It is all based on good behavior and the pleasure of this G-d she speaks of. The confusing part is if you wind up in one of those places it appears her concept of "free will" is now gone. If I wind up in heaven I couldn't murder someone. That is free-will to her. To me that is a mental disorder and has nothing to do with free-will.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
The central message i get

The central message i get from my religion is Christs teaching. Christ clealry teaches to love one another. The doctrine of killing gays relates to a law before Christ. Christ does not teach to kill gays.

Why is it when i have been going to church all 33 years of my life, my church or any church i have been to has not instructed me to kill gays or be negative to them in any way towards them?

The time of the OT relates to another time, not the present after Christ.

The game is not the same. you have it WRONG.


Philosophicus
Philosophicus's picture
Posts: 362
Joined: 2009-12-16
User is offlineOffline
...

Conigman wrote:

The central message i get from my religion is Christs teaching. Christ clealry teaches to love one another. The doctrine of killing gays relates to a law before Christ. Christ does not teach to kill gays.

Why is it when i have been going to church all 33 years of my life, my church or any church i have been to has not instructed me to kill gays or be negative to them in any way towards them?

The time of the OT relates to another time, not the present after Christ.

The game is not the same. you have it WRONG.

 

If you guys don't practice certain doctrines anymore, then take them out of your holy book.  Show the world that those ways are really behind you.  Like Mark Twain said about religion, "The practice changes, but the scripture remains."  The pressure for your church to change has come from the secular world, and your tradition has been influenced to adapt.

And the reason that your church doesn't instruct you to kill gays is because it's illegal now.  The church doesn't make the rules anymore.  Look in your gospels; it's unclear whether Jesus intended to even get rid of the Jewish law.  In some gospels he's for it, in others he's against it.  How do you decide which verses to believe?

 

 


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:The central

Conigman wrote:

The central message i get from my religion is Christs teaching. Christ clealry teaches to love one another. The doctrine of killing gays relates to a law before Christ. Christ does not teach to kill gays.

Why is it when i have been going to church all 33 years of my life, my church or any church i have been to has not instructed me to kill gays or be negative to them in any way towards them?

The time of the OT relates to another time, not the present after Christ.

The game is not the same. you have it WRONG.

We've now established that you don't go to the Hillsborough Baptist Church.

Could you explain why various Christian groups run around the country, protesting in any state that allows same-sex marriage?  When California allowed same-sex marriage, the next thing you know, the Mormons and others invade the state, spend millions of dollars, stir up local Christian groups, and get Proposition 8 passed.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
 We are deviating again

 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

Proofs and characterisitics of God are a completely different subject, one which WE WILL delve into in a seperate thread.

I still havent been given good reasons why atheists spend so much debating on something they dont believe exists.

We wll deal with this. One subject at a time.

 

 


FurryCatHerder
Theist
FurryCatHerder's picture
Posts: 1253
Joined: 2007-06-02
User is offlineOffline
ex-minister wrote:Well, the

ex-minister wrote:

Well, the hole in her logic is that she believes in an afterlife and refers to the possibility of an a atheist being in heaven saying whoa how did I get here and the religious person standing in hell saying WTF. I think there might be another population who went into some void in her view. It is all based on good behavior and the pleasure of this G-d she speaks of. The confusing part is if you wind up in one of those places it appears her concept of "free will" is now gone. If I wind up in heaven I couldn't murder someone. That is free-will to her. To me that is a mental disorder and has nothing to do with free-will.

I'm not convinced either place -- Heaven or Hell -- exists.  "Heaven" is always mentioned as "the Heavens" (b'shamayim, "in the Heavens&quotEye-wink and the only "people" who are there are G-d, angels and the "heavenly hosts".  The number of people in the Hebrew bible that are listed as going to "heaven" are incredibly small.  "Resurrection" was one of the differences in belief between the Sadducees and the Pharisees.  The Sadducees were "against" and the Pharisees were "for" -- I'm inclined to believe that was the result of Greek influence.  "Hell" definitely doesn't exist -- the places that are pointed to as "Hell" by Christians in the Hebrew texts were typically the location of the nearest garbage dump. 

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
I think they do what they do

I think they do what they do is they feel they are trying to save souls. However, i am not sure they realise that they may in fact be worse people than homo sexuals.

But we arent to judge. But why do these people bother non believers so much? I really dont understand. Again, the state is the one who makes the decision on same sex marriages, not the church.

 

 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13657
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is onlineOnline
Quote:I think that for some,

Quote:
I think that for some, they are trying to argue their way into being Atheists, rather than having Atheism as something that just comes naturally, like breathing.

What a steamy pile. Some people get physics easily Some have to work at it. Some people play sports easily some people have to work at it. Some people never get either.

No what you call "coming naturally" is merely allowing your ego and imagination take over. It doesn't require thinking at all to go with your feelings. It takes thinking to filter out personal bias and not let ones emotions rule them.

We are not trying to argue our way to being atheists. WE ARE atheists, precisely for the same reason you are not a Muslim or a Christian or a Hindu. Precisely because for the same reason we know the earth is not flat. Thinking got humans away from invisible friends and superstition. Making crap up is what you call "breathing". Finding answers requires testing, making up myth and swallowing myth only requires imagination.

Quote:
Absolutely, Christianity is based on violence.

The Christian religion is itself a form of extortion -

Coming from you I find that funny. Pot meet kettle. Your OT God is as much a bloodthirsty God as the Christian God. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

The God of all the Abraham religions are all violent, and all bribe or threaten you into submission. BECAUSE they all come from the same myth which started in the feudal dictator societies in which they were invented.

 

 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
The leaders of the regimes

The leaders of the regimes were ATHEISTS who dictated and manipulated his followers to carry out the acts or else...

Atheists were the masterminds of these atrocities.

 

 


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
The leaders of the regimes

The leaders of the regimes were ATHEISTS who dictated and manipulated his followers to carry out the acts or else...

Atheists were the masterminds of these atrocities.

 

 


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
Believe or go to hell?

Believe or go to hell? Whoever says that is NOT following Christianity. Jesus specifically said, there is ONLY 1 judge. When someon says "you better believe or else", if you think you know Christianity as well as you think you do, would know not to listen to this person as this person is making a judgement, something Christ clealry told us not to make.

This is where you are wrong about Christianity. You are making it out as though someone can go through life without harming anyone, while this is pretty much impossible, it does not address other sins the human has committed in their life. You are making an assumption that it is possible for a human being to live there life sin free, which is not possible. We are all sinners. If you can prove to me that someone has lived there life sin free then i will agree with you, but you wont be able to. This is where accepting Christ is the central theme for Christianity as forgiveness for sins every human has committed.

Again, alot of these confusions are arising regarding judgements. I have already established there is only 1 judge, yet you seem to take what people are saying as actual passed judgements.

We have deviated from the OP again. I knew this would happen.

 

 

 


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
We believe that salvation is

We believe that salvation is available in the AFTERLIFE. Certainly when Christians sin in this natural world, they are accountable just like anyone else in this world. You are making it sound as if Christians can do what they want and the law in this world will let them off because they are Christian. This is certainly not the case as we know.

Furthermore, i dont believe that a Christian can go on a sinning rampage and say "she'll be right, God will forgive us, lets just go on a rampage". I dont think this will  wash down with God.

On a side note, is that you in the photo with kirk Cameron?


Philosophicus
Philosophicus's picture
Posts: 362
Joined: 2009-12-16
User is offlineOffline
...

Conigman wrote:

 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

Proofs and characterisitics of God are a completely different subject, one which WE WILL delve into in a seperate thread.

I still havent been given good reasons why atheists spend so much debating on something they dont believe exists.

We wll deal with this. One subject at a time.

 

 

 

Truth is good.  This is why atheists attack irrational claims.  It's better to believe true claims and weed out false ones, than to believe false claims and weed out truth.

 

 

 


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
We see a number of

We see a number of organisations protest for what they believe in. That is why it is called a freedom of speech. Christians just like any other human are entitiled to voice their opinion. We arent any different. It is just like the greens for example who protest about whaling, deforestation etc.  Me personally, i dont protest at all. My response is just like for anything else, let God Judge and leave it at that.


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
No you didnt, but it is a

No you didnt, but it is a complete waste of time in discussing it. As i said originally, Atheists have said that this is the only life we have, so every precious minute counts, why waste any minute on something that doesnt exist, Peter Parker included.

It is irrational


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
No you didnt, but it is a

No you didnt, but it is a complete waste of time in discussing it. As i said originally, Atheists have said that this is the only life we have, so every precious minute counts, why waste any minute on something that doesnt exist, Peter Parker included.

It is irrational


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
Am i the judge? No i am not

Am i the judge? No i am not so why would i tell you that you are going to hell? is any person on this earth the judge? No, so why do you listen to them? There is only 1 judge.


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
And why does it matter if it

And why does it matter if it is a small or large part of the world follow inyour belief a lie?


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
I agree on this in general,

I agree on this in general, but this cannot be applied to theism.

Hypothetically, if a friend of mine believed that he was going to recieve a sum of money but i knew this was not going to happen, ie, he was believing in a lie, i would tell my friend and try and convince him he is beleiving in a lie for a number of reasons. Mostly so he wont be let down when he actually finds out he wont be recieving the money and furthermore so he can adjust his life in preperation for this lie (recieving the money), ie planning on buying things etc

With thesism, why would non believer try and convince a believer God doesnt exist? Do they want the believer not to be disspointed when they die that there is nothing? It cant be that because if there is nothing, then the believer cannot be dissapointed as they will be dead.

Furthermore, the true believer will try and live by Jesus' standards in there life. These standards are at a very high moral standard. If this belief drives the individual to live a better life, then why would you want him or her to deviate from this?

There is absolutely no benefit for the non believer to try and convince the believer God doesnt exist, NONE.

And no, you cannot use 1-2% of extremists as a reason....

 


devilsadvoc8
devilsadvoc8's picture
Posts: 19
Joined: 2008-04-05
User is offlineOffline
Conigman wrote:Believe or go

Conigman wrote:

Believe or go to hell? Whoever says that is NOT following Christianity. Jesus specifically said, there is ONLY 1 judge. When someon says "you better believe or else", if you think you know Christianity as well as you think you do, would know not to listen to this person as this person is making a judgement, something Christ clealry told us not to make.

This is where you are wrong about Christianity. You are making it out as though someone can go through life without harming anyone, while this is pretty much impossible, it does not address other sins the human has committed in their life. You are making an assumption that it is possible for a human being to live there life sin free, which is not possible. We are all sinners. If you can prove to me that someone has lived there life sin free then i will agree with you, but you wont be able to. This is where accepting Christ is the central theme for Christianity as forgiveness for sins every human has committed.

Again, alot of these confusions are arising regarding judgements. I have already established there is only 1 judge, yet you seem to take what people are saying as actual passed judgements.

We have deviated from the OP again. I knew this would happen.

 

 

 

 

Just so I can understand your frame of reference, what defines a sinner?  Your issued a blanket statement that all of humanity are sinners.  I would like to better understand your definition of rules that you assert we all break.

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchins


Conigman
Theist
Posts: 87
Joined: 2012-01-10
User is offlineOffline
This is from my point of

This is from my point of view obviously,  but any human that breaks Gods laws is a sinner. We have all broken Gods laws including myself. That is why i call those people that protest about homosexuality are hypocrites. Jesus said, whoever has not sinned to throw the first stone, so no one did. The people who protest are also sinners.

Again, this is from my beliefs and views. When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.