Why do atheists spend so much time discussing a "being" they dont believe exists?

Conigman
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Why do atheists spend so much time discussing a "being" they dont believe exists?

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........


ex-minister
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Conigman wrote:No, you said

Conigman wrote:

 

No, you said it makes you happier, does this mean that it will make everyone else happier? Not sure if you follow baseball. But there is a baseballer called Josh Hamilton. He readily admits, before he found God, he was a druggie, alco, junkie, depressent on the brink of suicide. He found God which caused him to ditch the drugs, alco etc, etc, he got his career back, is making plenty of money, is a hero to plenty of people, visits and makes sick people happy etc etc....

Now , do you think he is not as happy as before? This shows that your explantion that getting out of religion makes people happy as false.

regarding science, how does religion stop its progress? Scientists are always going study and research. Dr Francis Collins who has become a theist is the owner of the genome project which is doing wonderful things to progress medicine. Latest scientific studies have shown that the universe did in fact begin to exist, which was already stated in the bible, to which many atheists thought it was eternal. In my opinion, the more scientific studies we do, the more we will find God, that is just my opinion.

 

I gave two examples of how religion holds back science. It is a fact. Stem Cell research is another. Yes, thinking the bible is scientific in any way is just an opinion. It in fact is not. The earth is not flat, it is not the center of the universe, the sky is not a sphere than sits on the earth and god is overhead cuz there isn't any overhead, the earth does move, it is not stacked on pillars, bats are not birds, the universe is not 6000 years old,  there are no fiery breathing dragons, no unicorns,  insects do not have 4 legs but 6, man cannot create a building that touches heaven, seeds don't go into the ground, die and sprout,  putting branches in the drinking water does not make animals have speckled or striped offspring, mixing holy water with biblical ink and having your wife drink it will not cause her belly & thighs to swell if she has cheated on and the whole logistics of Noah's ark is simply impossible. All these things are in the bible - it gets an F- in science. And fundamentalist road block science. Ask any of the current Republican candidates and you will see what I mean. They are the ones who make the laws and take away funding of scientific projects.

 

I am familiar with such recoveries as you mention and in a very personal way. They have swapped on addiction for other. I see them continue to struggle. It is good they have cleared their head, but there is a lot of sh*t yet to uncover. Happiness wasn't my only criteria, just a personal comment. Hopefully this post has clarified that.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Conigman wrote:Sapient

Conigman wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

The answer is because atheists care.

Atheists care about the world we live in, and since they aren't brainwashed by religion they are in a unique position to help people like yourself who are brainwashed by religion.  Atheists are in a position to help theists overcome their irrational beliefs.

It was cute of you to try and accuse others of doing what it is you do.  It was irrational what you did.  

If it makes you feel better, I know many atheists who act irrationally.  None of them do it on the issue of god belief, but they do it.

 

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. The earth will die a cosmic death.

You just had the creator of a prominent atheist website explain to you what we believe and your response is to tell me what I believe and then tell me why it makes no sense.

I told you I care about the world I live in.  Now ask me if I think life is meaningless and I will tell you, of course not.

 

Quote:
If everything is the accidental by product of nature - the result of matter plus time plus chance , there is no reason for your existence.

It's more appropriate to call it a non-accident.

 

Quote:
Every single positive thing anyone will have done is ultimately meaningless All your friendships, studying, jobs, loving caring, helping others is ULTIMATELY meaningless. Dont confuse relative with ULTIMATE.

You're far gone man, you'll say just about anything to reject what is more logical than your current belief system.  I have great meaning in my life.  I don't find meaning from thousand year old fairy tales, I find my meaning in things I choose to find meaning in.

One of my guiding quotes in life... "To shun ignorance and superstition, to embrace knowledge and reason, to become the sum of all the wisdom that one can absorb in a very limited lifetime-that is the purpose of humankind." - Ranjef

 

Quote:
As russian writer dhostyevski out it, "if their is no imortality, then all things are permitted,  you may as well live your life as you please".

There is no god.  That has nothing to do with morals.  Humans had a moral code with each other well before religion pretended that they came up with them.  

- Brian Sapient


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Conigman wrote:BobSpence

Conigman wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman wrote:

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman,

"Meaning" is something each conscious being finds or learns for themselves, it is not something dependent on there being some "higher power".

You cannot know how we view and find meaning in the absence of belief in such an entity, but let me assure you we do, at least I do.

I will not deny that you find "meaning" via your belief in God, but that does not mean that is the only way. It is extremely arrogant/ignorant of you to assert that we can't.

No-one requires belief in God to find enjoyment in life, and in the company of and discourse with friends and family, so part of my purpose is to do what I can to help others, and future inhabitants of planet Earth, to similarly experience a more pleasant life.

I deeply value the pursuit of Truth, and since religion is the denial of the genuine, open pursuit of what is true, I spend a lot of my time explaining just why I see things this way, as well as helping them to understand things that I have learned from decades of following the progress of Science. ie human knowledge.

The grateful thanks I get when people are appreciative enough, and have time, to respond more than compensates me for the time involved.

 

Thats right Bob, that is why i say life is ULTIMATELY meaningless for the atheist, not relatively meaningless.

 

There is nothing "relative" in the meaning I find. It is absolutely meaningful to me.

Same as for you. You CANNOT know there is a God, or that he cares for you, you only believe it, but that is all that is required for you to feel that there is "Ultimate" meaning. "Ultimate" meanings and truths cannot be apprehended and known by our finite and fallible minds with any certainty, even if they exist.

Your belief that God is necessary for your life to have ULTIMATE meaning is still just a belief, not something you KNOW. It is an intrinsically personal subjective belief, no less so than my own experience of the feeling of "meaning" I derive from my approach to life. 

"Meaning" is what something "means" to a particular mind. It is meaningless to talk of "ultimate" meaning.

This is the difference.

For example. If you fed and saved 10,000 people, that gave relative meaning to you because of your action, it may have given you meaning in your life. When you die, your legacy may live on and you have left the world in a better place and people may praise you while you are dead. When the universe eventually dies, that action of yours is ultimately meaningless.

If i saved and fed 10,000 people, in terms of this world, i will also reap the same praises as you, however, my belief is that those good deeds i did, will be recognised and rewarded for eternity, therefore it has ULTIMATE meaning....

That is the difference.

Yep. That's it. I don't feel the need for eternal recognition for my actions, just the thought that I have contributed to the current and/or future happiness of another person is more than enough for a mere atheist.

I feel no need or desire for all those "praises". Just the occasional grateful thanks from someone I have tried to assist in some way is more than enough, and not strictly necessary - just a pleasant bonus.

I feel no emotional connection with this imaginary realm of yours which you feel grants you some "ultimate meaning". 

We do good things for the sake of it, not because of promise of some ultimate reward. We are selfless, unlike people like yourself, who apparently require 'ultimate' reward of some kind for doing good.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

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Atheistextremist
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And so far no reply to this...

 

blacklight915 wrote:

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

It's clear that in your mind atheists are evil. We can talk past you forever and you will never embrace our human commonality.

Conigman, do you affirm or deny this statement?

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Sweetly put

 

BobSpence wrote:

We do good things for the sake of it, not because of promise of some ultimate reward. We are selfless, unlike people like yourself, who apparently require 'ultimate' reward of some kind for doing good.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Conigman wrote: if anyone

Conigman wrote:
 

if anyone knows Christianity properly, then they will know anyone committing illegal and immoral behaviours and hide behind God is a lie.

Your church tells people God will help them with health problems and financial problems, right? But if I as atheist sell snake oil and get rich quick schemes, I go to jail, anyone who helps me in this is guilty as well. But religion gets a pass, it's not 'illegal' because it's religion.

If I made threats of torture and violence against people to coerce them to do what I want, I go to jail. Your church can make threats and then claim it's not them but God making the treats.

Religion gets a free pass for all kinds of otherwise illegal and immoral behaviors. Religion is the only fraud that is legally and morally given a pass in society.

 

Conigman wrote:

Human beings in general dont like to be accountable for their actions. Humans have a natural tendency to blame anyone else but themselves. It is just that some people blame God for their actions. An easy cop out.

Your church can threaten people with torture and then say it's God and devil that does the torture. An easy cop out.

 

Conigman wrote:

I have been a Catholic all of my life, why havent i committed illegal and immoral behaviours and blamed it on God?

I don't know how much proselytizing you've done, but you've supported it. Religion is threats, false promises and false claims. So why should it be given a pass?

Conigman wrote:

My family havent done it, neither have any of my close friends. If someone is going to committ an immoral act, they will do it, it is just that Christians that do it think they can hide behind God. That is not Christianity.

Aren't there sins of omission. So if a priest tells the flock, "God will reward you for giving us your money" and it's a big lie, what are you guilty of? You just sit there while con men with a collar rip off desperate people.

Religion gives you excuse to not examine the real evidence of whether your actions are beneficial or harmful. So the net result is great harm. If anything is immoral, why not this?

For instance, your church has not been a leader at preventing child rape, child abuse and bullying. Instead it has been a great source of these. But in your mind, you're a moral guy for just letting this go on because your version of God doesn't require you to do anything about this.

 

 

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Just to be clear

Conigman wrote:

If i saved and fed 10,000 people, in terms of this world, i will also reap the same praises as you, however, my belief is that those good deeds i did, will be recognised and rewarded for eternity, therefore it has ULTIMATE meaning....

That is the difference.

You are NOT presenting people of your faith in a very good light by going on about how you get this extra 'reward'. It makes it sound like you have to be bribed into doing good.

IOW, atheists who do good things are far more to be admired than believers. Such as Bill Gates and the major donations he gives via the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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...

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman wrote:

If i saved and fed 10,000 people, in terms of this world, i will also reap the same praises as you, however, my belief is that those good deeds i did, will be recognised and rewarded for eternity, therefore it has ULTIMATE meaning....

That is the difference.

You are NOT presenting people of your faith in a very good light by going on about how you get this extra 'reward'. It makes it sound like you have to be bribed into doing good.

IOW, atheists who do good things are far more to be admired than believers. Such as Bill Gates and the major donations he gives via the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. 

 

He's probably going to just repeat how atheists don't have ultimate meaning, without addressing any of our points.  And he's still assuming God exists.  Conigman, if life is ultimately meaningless without God, why should atheists bother being immoral?  If nothing matters, why bother being bad?  You sound like a nihilist.  You've had several atheists tell you already how we live meaningful, finite lives, and you still don't understand.

The more moral person is the one who can be good even though there won't be ultimate, everlasting meaning. 


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@ OP: Because theists spend

@ OP: Because theists spend as much or more corrupting politics, the justice and education systems, and social and economic systems, all in the name of their invisible friend. If you sat down, shut up, and stopped fucking with EVERYTHING we wouldn't bother with delusional idiots.
What right do you have to try and force your lies on people smart enough not to fall for your lies?

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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ex-minister wrote:Conigman

ex-minister wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

The bible gives us clear instructions as to what to do in the case of self defense, which is similar to the state law on self defense. Pauls letters also give us guidelines in regards to lying.

Why would a deity try and decieve us? The only being that tries to decieve us is Satan.

 

1. please provide chapter and verse for self-defense and for Paul's allowing for lying.

Exodus, "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed".

 

 

2. God does deceive us, the Bible clearly states it. He sends lying spirits & delusions.  

 

1 kings 22:21-22 wrote:

 

 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

“So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

 

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 wrote:

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

These are how God brings judgement on those who do not repent and continue there own wicked ways. Anyone who does not believe in God  and continually denies him is subject to this delusion. It is one form of judgement. God is a God of love and God of wrath. He is not out personal Genie.

 

 

 


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Nikolaj wrote:Conigman

Nikolaj wrote:

Conigman wrote:

What the? If all souls are eternal and the soul rests in a place that is determined by judgement BASED ON what you do in this world, then everything is ULTIMATELY meaningful. If i murdered, lied, stealed and rape, i will be judged based on that. If i help others, follow the commandments etc, i will be judged on that. What i do on this earth will determine my eternal destination.

And like I said, since that destination is eternal, what does this life matter in the face of that eternity? This life is finite, and so makes up an INFINITLY small fraction of your ACTUAL life. This life is meaningless compared to the eternity that awaits. Can't you see that?

If your actions on this earth in this lifetime are the sole determinant of your eternal destiny, then whatever good and bad deeds you do on this world is Ultimately meaningful as they determine where you will Ultimately end up.

Conigman wrote:

What are you talking about? There is ONLY 1 judge in my beliefs, he determines the eternal destination of sould. You arent the judge to determine all the goo deeds making up for the bad deeds and vice a verse 

And like I said:

I wrote:

...God, itself an eternal entity, could only jugde us from the point of view of eternity: therefore everything is meaningless.

How is everything meaningless? God is eternal, no end. In the atheistic view, everything ends, including the universe, everything we do is ultimately meaningless.

So there...

Conigman wrote:

How is everything meaningless when everything and what actions you do on this earth determines your eternal destination?

Because that destination is eternal. What does a finite life matter in the face of eternity?

As i have said what you do determines where you spend eternity....How is that so difficult to understand?

Conigman wrote:

You have appealed top the fallacy of equivocation here. We can discuss this in another thread, but we have deviated enough from the OP

I've allready adressed your OP, but you ignored my answer.

 

My argument is precisely that you are commiting a fallacy of equivocation when you ascripe personhood to God.

A fallacy of equivocation is:

Wikipedia wrote:

...the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time)

People use the word Person to describe God because, "person" can mean more than one thing: like Peter Parker or Me. One is real, one is fictional, but they can both be described as persons. God however, cannot be described as a person, while simultaniously being described as eternal: he is either one or the other. Like a square circle, an infinite person is self-refuting.

When people use that description, it is nothing more than a figure of speech. Shouldnt be taken literally.

 

But since person is a word with a more fluid meaning than "square" or "circle", one can make it appear as though something can be both a person and infinite at the same time. When one does, one is commiting a fallacy of equivocation.

I will deal with this in another forum as we are off the OP, but it is something we will discuss.


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blacklight915 wrote:Conigman

blacklight915 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

The commandments and Jesus' teaching do not in any way teach to committ atrocities or immoral behaviour.

I am a devout Catholic, why havent i gone and threatened to kill homo sexuals? Why havent i gone and murdered non believers? Why havent i gone and put slogans up saying that homo sexuals will go to hell?

If this is what Christianity teaches, then why havent i done this?

Because you don't believe this is what Christianity teaches.

How do you know what i believe? I follow the teachings the Christ, Christ does not teach to commit atrocities. Funny how the atheists are absolutely obsessed with the laws of the OT which applied to a society and law over 2000 years ago, yet dont mention Christ at all. which in the Catholic church applies today.

However, your belief that Christianity does not teach these things has no effect upon whether it actually does or doesn't.

If i am true part of a religion, i am a true part of a religion. As much as you want to believe it does, it does NOT TEACH ME TO COMMIT ATROCITIES.

In addition, many people do not like the idea of making death threats, committing murder, or condemning people to eternal torture. Therefore, they do not do these things.

You really think so? I think it is nice idea and very motivating to give revenge to someone, no matter how that may be, but do i do it? No, but it sounds nice.

By the way, people can still come to a consensus (or at least very close to it) on whether something is moral or not even if morality is subjective.

That is true, but it is more of a case of overlapping by , well chance is little bit to strong of a word.

Since you continually insist there is only one judge: is there any way to know precisely how this judge will make its decision? Is there any way to know for certain whether we are going to heaven or hell when we die?

We are given clear instructions. But people want to blur these rules to fit there lifestyle.

 

Conigman wrote:

What the? If all souls are eternal and the soul rests in a place that is determined by judgement BASED ON what you do in this world, then everything is ULTIMATELY meaningful. If i murdered, lied, stealed and rape, i will be judged based on that. If i help others, follow the commandments etc, i will be judged on that. What i do on this earth will determine my eternal destination.

Nikolaj wrote:

And like I said, since that destination is eternal, what does this life matter in the face of that eternity? This life is finite, and so makes up an INFINITLY small fraction of your ACTUAL life. This life is meaningless compared to the eternity that awaits. Can't you see that?

I think Conigman's point is that this life is meaningful only in that it determines whether the next one is eternal happiness or eternal suffering.

Correct, i am glad someone understands this.

 

Atheistextremist wrote:

It's clear that in your mind atheists are evil. We can talk past you forever and you will never embrace our human commonality.

Absolutely NOT. I have never said that atheists are evil. I only said that the humans that were responsible for the biggest atrocities in the history of humanity were atheists. I clearly stated that atheism is NOT the cause of these atrocities, but rather point out, that if a person is not involved in a religion, they can committ atrocities as evident by the leaders i have talked about.

Conigman, do you affirm or deny this statement?

 


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ex-minister wrote:Conigman

ex-minister wrote:

Conigman wrote:

If the world is going to die a cosmic death, that means to the atheist, life is ultimately meaningless. Life to the atheist is ONLY relatively meaningful.

All the good an atheist does is ULTIMATELY meaningless. As they believe once the world dies, every good deed is gone with it.

Think about this.

The atheist has said, you only get 1 life, enjoy every minute of it.

You walk down the street and see a house on fire with a baby trapped in it and the mother is begging for you to go in and get it. Lets just assume for the sake of the example, that if you go in, you will save the baby but in the process you will die.

Why would you go in and save the baby?

If the world is eventually going to die a cosmic death, every memory, thought and emotion goes with it, why would you do it? All what you have done is given up your 1 chance life that should be enjoyed every minute.

It is illogical

 

 

It might be illogical to you but we are humans like you and yet remain moral. When we hear arguments like yours we wonder about the person presenting it, exactly what kind of demons are they holding back. If they stopped believing in God would they go on some murderous raping rampage. Is that why you need religion? Do you fear you will go crazy? 

 

 

This is where you are not understanding.

Ok, if an atheist gives up his or her life, it is called a sacrifice. It is called a sacrifice because the remaining people on this earth are ABLE to call it a sacrifice. If there is no earth, no universe, is there anyone to call the actions of the soldier a sacrifice? Of course not, that is why the sacrifice is considered ULTIMATELY stupid.

Consider this.

Lets say for FACT you knew the world is going to end next week, and there is no God, what would you do?

Would you do things that will give you pleasure and enjoyment OR do things that require sacrifice or a combination of both? Which one?

 

 


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blacklight915 wrote:Conigman

blacklight915 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

You walk down the street and see a house on fire with a baby trapped in it and the mother is begging for you to go in and get it. Lets just assume for the sake of the example, that if you go in, you will save the baby but in the process you will die.

Why would you go in and save the baby?

Because I would feel compelled to do so. Furthermore, as this compulsion is likely based on strong emotions, I probably wouldn't be thinking about how logical or rational my actions would be in the grand scheme of things. I am continuing with your assumption here. In real life, depending on the severity of the fire, I would have very little chance of being successful unless I was a firefighter with the proper training and equipment.

Yes, i am not saying you wouldnt, your consience would compel you to do it (have a think about that, your consience). But when you take a step back and think about the atheistic world (from a theoretical point of view), it is stupid to risk your life for anything.

 

Conigman wrote:

Thats my exact point i am trying to make..Life is ultimately meaningless for the atheist, all good deeds are ultimately meaningless, all sacrifices are meaningless. So why do it?

This isnt about wether i want to believe it or not. I am just trying to point the fact to which your atheist friends seem to be disputing now. Interesting.

Because it feels very meaningful to us. Furthermore, I don't care whether my actions have any ultimate meaning or not: I am going to try to improve my own life and the lives of others as much as I can because that is what I want to do--no, that is what I feel compelled to do.

Yes, relatively meaningful, but ULTIMATELY meaningless.

 

 

Conigman wrote:

It is illogical

I don't claim to always be logical. 

 

 

 


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Conigman wrote:devilsadvoc8

Conigman wrote:

devilsadvoc8 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

This is from my point of view obviously,  but any human that breaks Gods laws is a sinner. We have all broken Gods laws including myself. That is why i call those people that protest about homosexuality are hypocrites. Jesus said, whoever has not sinned to throw the first stone, so no one did. The people who protest are also sinners.

Again, this is from my beliefs and views. When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

perhaps I wasn't specific enough.  Which laws are you referring to?  The 10 commandments or something more or less than that?  Can you define these laws?  Asserting Gods laws can have many meanings.

Personally I'll admit to taking god's name in vain quite often, perhaps daily.  And coveting, sure, especially when viewing certain, ahem, photos. 

Yes, the 10 commandments.

 

Ok.  So I am not a sinner if I rape or molest a child.  Yet saying jesus fucking christ when being exasperated will make me eligible for damnation.  And you were the one questioning if atheists acted logically?  Get a grip man, your rules and tenets are a manmade fiction used to buttress ancient power hungry dictators' place in society through a false premise of moral superiority.  It is a sad condemnation on humans as a whole that it has taken this long for the free thinker to be able to voice their opinion without threat of inquisition or death let alone the fact that the majority on this planet still fall for the immense pile of shit that is religion no matter what the brand (Marvel, Islam, DC or christianity etc).  Religion has repeatadely lost any and all moral high ground through its actions and inactions over human history.  So you can take your "sinner" concept and keep it to yourself.  You and any other supporter of religious dogma are far worse human beings than I am. 

That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence- Christopher Hitchins


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Philosophicus wrote:Conigman

Philosophicus wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:
 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

The answer is because atheists care.

Atheists care about the world we live in, and since they aren't brainwashed by religion they are in a unique position to help people like yourself who are brainwashed by religion.  Atheists are in a position to help theists overcome their irrational beliefs.

It was cute of you to try and accuse others of doing what it is you do.  It was irrational what you did.  

If it makes you feel better, I know many atheists who act irrationally.  None of them do it on the issue of god belief, but they do it.  

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. The earth will die a cosmic death.

If everything is the accidental by product of nature - the result of matter plus time plus chance , there is no reason for your existence. All you face is death. Every single positive thing anyone will have done is ultimately meaningless All your friendships, studying, jobs, loving caring, helping others is ULTIMATELY meaningless. Dont confuse relative with ULTIMATE.

As russian writer dhostyevski out it, "if their is no imortality, then all things are permitted,  you may as well live your life as you please".

If life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, then everyone should act in their own selfish ways, no one will hold you ULTIMATELY accountable.

When you think about it, it would be foolish to do anything else since life is too short to jeopordize it by acting out of anything but pure self interest. Sacrifice for another person would be stupid.

Your views are contradictory 

 

If we don't have eternal life, that doesn't mean we can't experience meaning while we're alive.  I would rather have an eternally meaningful life too, but this wish doesn't make it true.  The words "wishful thinking" apply to you, Conigman. 

Yes RELATIVE meaning, not ultimate meaning. Of course what you wish doesnt make it true. Just like many atheists wish there isnt a God to judge them for all there bad deeds and not believing in him doesnt make it true that he doesnt exist. This is a fallacy i see with many atheists. Atheists think that theists wish there is an eternal life because they cannot face that death is the end. This is the complete opposite. The afterlife many atheists say that they can WISH exists is NOT the afterlife many theists including myself believe exists. Hey, if i want to live a life of sin and not be told what is right or wrong, i would then WISH God doesnt exist as i would much rather face an ultimate death rather than eternal torment.  maybe that is why atheists dont want to believe? That is just a private thought.

You said that atheists who care about their world are contradicting themselves because they don't believe in eternal life (or "ultimate" meaning).  In the worldview of most atheists there is no afterlife, making the amount of meaning they can experience finite by definition.  This finitude allows many decades of caring and is not a contradiction. 

People on this site have a very hard time understanding the difference between relative meaning and ultimate meaning.

You said that if we evolved, life could have no meaning because all we face is death --  but this just means that our meaning is finite.  I expect you to prove that eternal meaning exists; we already have evidence that finite meaning exists.  Justify your claim that meaning is eternal.

My view that all deeds good and bad that we conduct on this earth will be taken with us to the afterlife. Your actions here will determine your eternal destination - forever. therefore your actions on this earth , good deeds and bad deeds have an ultimate meaning. For the atheist, all good deeds and bad deeds conducted will leave a legacy on this world. But then when the earth dies a cosmic death, those good and bad deeds the atheist conduct are ultomately meaningless.

You brought up Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov, where Ivan concludes that without God and immortality, everything is permissible.  This is nonsense.  First of all, it doesn't matter if we can't be held eternally accountable.  Why should it?  Rule breakers can get their punishment here and now.  Our goal as an international society should be to negotiate values so we can live peacefully, successfully, and happily.  If you want eternal life, do work in biotechnology; become a transhumanist and make it happen for real. 

But what about people that get away with it in this life? If you have money, a good lawyer, friends in high places or even a person in authority, then pretty much anything is permissable.

Finally, I have a question about your last comment.  Why would you save a stranger from a burning building?  The human reason is biologically hard-wired empathy that exists in brains to various degrees and is shaped by our environment; organisms work better in groups, and cooperation was naturally selected for.

Hard wired huh, i wonder who did the hard wiring? I am not going to get into evolution as i am sure there are several evolution threads here. Ones that i will visit. Again, this thread is not about proofs of Gods existence.

 

 

 

 


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ex-minister wrote:Conigman

ex-minister wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

No, you said it makes you happier, does this mean that it will make everyone else happier? Not sure if you follow baseball. But there is a baseballer called Josh Hamilton. He readily admits, before he found God, he was a druggie, alco, junkie, depressent on the brink of suicide. He found God which caused him to ditch the drugs, alco etc, etc, he got his career back, is making plenty of money, is a hero to plenty of people, visits and makes sick people happy etc etc....

Now , do you think he is not as happy as before? This shows that your explantion that getting out of religion makes people happy as false.

regarding science, how does religion stop its progress? Scientists are always going study and research. Dr Francis Collins who has become a theist is the owner of the genome project which is doing wonderful things to progress medicine. Latest scientific studies have shown that the universe did in fact begin to exist, which was already stated in the bible, to which many atheists thought it was eternal. In my opinion, the more scientific studies we do, the more we will find God, that is just my opinion.

 

I gave two examples of how religion holds back science. It is a fact. Stem Cell research is another. Yes, thinking the bible is scientific in any way is just an opinion. It in fact is not. The earth is not flat, it is not the center of the universe, the sky is not a sphere than sits on the earth and god is overhead cuz there isn't any overhead, the earth does move, it is not stacked on pillars, bats are not birds, the universe is not 6000 years old,  there are no fiery breathing dragons, no unicorns,  insects do not have 4 legs but 6, man cannot create a building that touches heaven, seeds don't go into the ground, die and sprout,  putting branches in the drinking water does not make animals have speckled or striped offspring, mixing holy water with biblical ink and having your wife drink it will not cause her belly & thighs to swell if she has cheated on and the whole logistics of Noah's ark is simply impossible. All these things are in the bible - it gets an F- in science. And fundamentalist road block science. Ask any of the current Republican candidates and you will see what I mean. They are the ones who make the laws and take away funding of scientific projects.

Where is it written in the bible that the earth is flat? The bible references the corners of the earth, but that is not a description of the earth. The bible isnt a claim that is a book on astronomy. In the case of the centre of the universe it is figuratively speaking., Remember the bible is a COLLECTION of  different books in one.  If i went to the library, ripped a chapter from a sci fi book, ripped a chapter from a poetry book, from a biography chapter and so on, and put them altogether in one book, does that mean the book will be read all with the same lense? I dont think so. It is a collection of all different books. The book says that Jesus opens doors, do you think Jesus stands at doors all day and opens and closes them literally? Or where it says if your right hand causes you to sin, then vut off your right hand, do you think god wants everyeone to walk around with no right hand? Cmon, i thought you were better than this. Do a bit of research.

 

I am familiar with such recoveries as you mention and in a very personal way. They have swapped on addiction for other. I see them continue to struggle. It is good they have cleared their head, but there is a lot of sh*t yet to uncover. Happiness wasn't my only criteria, just a personal comment. Hopefully this post has clarified that.

Oh, so you are making this claim now? Interesting. But lets for a minute pretend that what you say is true, why would you want to get rid of a platform that has transformed the life of many many many people around the world which made them better human beings, people around them better human beings and made a difference in this world? Your answer to this question has given me an answer has simply confirmed something i thought regarding the OP.

 


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Sapient wrote:Conigman

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Sapient wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

We are deviating again from the OP which is why atheists spend so much time discussing something they dont believe in.

The answer is because atheists care.

Atheists care about the world we live in, and since they aren't brainwashed by religion they are in a unique position to help people like yourself who are brainwashed by religion.  Atheists are in a position to help theists overcome their irrational beliefs.

It was cute of you to try and accuse others of doing what it is you do.  It was irrational what you did.  

If it makes you feel better, I know many atheists who act irrationally.  None of them do it on the issue of god belief, but they do it.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

 

But athiets caring about the world they live in is contradictory to their belief. To the athest, life is ULTIMATELY meaningless, not relatively meaningless, but ULTIMATELY meaningless. The earth will die a cosmic death.

You just had the creator of a prominent atheist website explain to you what we believe and your response is to tell me what I believe and then tell me why it makes no sense.

I told you I care about the world I live in.  Now ask me if I think life is meaningless and I will tell you, of course not.

But this is only relative.....Not ultimate...Cant you see this?

 

Quote:
If everything is the accidental by product of nature - the result of matter plus time plus chance , there is no reason for your existence.

It's more appropriate to call it a non-accident.

A non accident now? LOLOLOL. Did the explosion at the print factory cause the dictionary by a structured process?

 

Quote:
Every single positive thing anyone will have done is ultimately meaningless All your friendships, studying, jobs, loving caring, helping others is ULTIMATELY meaningless. Dont confuse relative with ULTIMATE.

You're far gone man, you'll say just about anything to reject what is more logical than your current belief system.  I have great meaning in my life.  I don't find meaning from thousand year old fairy tales, I find my meaning in things I choose to find meaning in.

Yes, i am not saying you dont, i am just saying that it is relative....(banging my head against a brick wall)

One of my guiding quotes in life... "To shun ignorance and superstition, to embrace knowledge and reason, to become the sum of all the wisdom that one can absorb in a very limited lifetime-that is the purpose of humankind." - Ranjef

 

Quote:
As russian writer dhostyevski out it, "if their is no imortality, then all things are permitted,  you may as well live your life as you please".

There is no god.  That has nothing to do with morals.  Humans had a moral code with each other well before religion pretended that they came up with them.  

Interesting that many atheists who are also moral relativists call the God of the bible a moral monster....Contradiction and illogical thought process right there....


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devilsadvoc8 wrote:Conigman

devilsadvoc8 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

devilsadvoc8 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

This is from my point of view obviously,  but any human that breaks Gods laws is a sinner. We have all broken Gods laws including myself. That is why i call those people that protest about homosexuality are hypocrites. Jesus said, whoever has not sinned to throw the first stone, so no one did. The people who protest are also sinners.

Again, this is from my beliefs and views. When i use Gods laws as a compass and compare mans actions against this compass, all men have sinned.

 

perhaps I wasn't specific enough.  Which laws are you referring to?  The 10 commandments or something more or less than that?  Can you define these laws?  Asserting Gods laws can have many meanings.

Personally I'll admit to taking god's name in vain quite often, perhaps daily.  And coveting, sure, especially when viewing certain, ahem, photos. 

Yes, the 10 commandments.

 

Ok.  So I am not a sinner if I rape or molest a child.  Yet saying jesus fucking christ when being exasperated will make me eligible for damnation.  And you were the one questioning if atheists acted logically?  Get a grip man, your rules and tenets are a manmade fiction used to buttress ancient power hungry dictators' place in society through a false premise of moral superiority.  It is a sad condemnation on humans as a whole that it has taken this long for the free thinker to be able to voice their opinion without threat of inquisition or death let alone the fact that the majority on this planet still fall for the immense pile of shit that is religion no matter what the brand (Marvel, Islam, DC or christianity etc).  Religion has repeatadely lost any and all moral high ground through its actions and inactions over human history.  So you can take your "sinner" concept and keep it to yourself.  You and any other supporter of religious dogma are far worse human beings than I am. 

You are a sinner if you rape or molest....Deutronomy 22: 25-27....I should have been more specific, the 10 commandments form part of my moral compass.


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devilsadvoc8 wrote:Conigman

devilsadvoc8 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Yes, the 10 commandments.

Ok.  So I am not a sinner if I rape or molest a child.  Yet saying jesus fucking christ when being exasperated will make me eligible for damnation.  And you were the one questioning if atheists acted logically?  Get a grip man, your rules and tenets are a manmade fiction used to buttress ancient power hungry dictators' place in society through a false premise of moral superiority.  It is a sad condemnation on humans as a whole that it has taken this long for the free thinker to be able to voice their opinion without threat of inquisition or death let alone the fact that the majority on this planet still fall for the immense pile of shit that is religion no matter what the brand (Marvel, Islam, DC or christianity etc).  Religion has repeatadely lost any and all moral high ground through its actions and inactions over human history.  So you can take your "sinner" concept and keep it to yourself.  You and any other supporter of religious dogma are far worse human beings than I am. 

Christians have completely trashed the entire "10 Commandments" thing.

The "10 Commandments" aren't the only commandments G-d ever gave.  They also pick and choose which ones they still want to follow -- they believe Jesus is a god, and then run off and make (and sell!) graven images.  They've got the multiple gods thing going with the three-in-one deal, the only thing holy about their "sabbath" day is football, they think bacon cheeseburgers are delicious.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Conigman wrote:have a think

Conigman wrote:

have a think about that, your consience

taken from the wikipedia page of the same name:

"In psychological terms conscience is often described as leading to feelings of remorse when a human commits actions that go against his/her moral values and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when actions conform to such normsCommon secular or scientific views regard the capacity for conscience as probably genetically determined, with its subject probably learned or imprinted (like language) as part of a culture."

 

Conigman wrote:

How do you know what i believe? I follow the teachings the Christ, Christ does not teach to commit atrocities. Funny how the atheists are absolutely obsessed with the laws of the OT which applied to a society and law over 2000 years ago, yet dont mention Christ at all. which in the Catholic church applies today.

You asked "If this is what Christianity teaches, then why havent i done this?" and I gave you an answer.

What about this verse: http://bible.cc/matthew/5-17.htm as well as Matthew 5:18-5:20? They do not seem to agree with you...

 

Conigman wrote:

You really think so? I think it is nice idea and very motivating to give revenge to someone, no matter how that may be, but do i do it? No, but it sounds nice.

Do you mean "get revenge on someone"? Yes, I forgot the idea of revenge is appealing to many...

 

Conigman wrote:

Lets say for FACT you knew the world is going to end next week, and there is no God, what would you do?

Provided that everybody else knew it too, I would probably spend the time on some combination of hanging out and/or partying with my friends and being with my family.

If nobody else knew and I couldn't convince them, I may not change my routine much at all. Maybe I'd voice my feelings and opinions a lot more and be extra nice to everyone I see.


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BobSpence wrote:Conigman

BobSpence wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

If i saved and fed 10,000 people, in terms of this world, i will also reap the same praises as you, however, my belief is that those good deeds i did, will be recognised and rewarded for eternity, therefore it has ULTIMATE meaning....

That is the difference.

You are NOT presenting people of your faith in a very good light by going on about how you get this extra 'reward'. It makes it sound like you have to be bribed into doing good.

IOW, atheists who do good things are far more to be admired than believers. Such as Bill Gates and the major donations he gives via the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

It is not a bribe. It is about for me anyway, doing and living by the law, Gods law. It is about recognising that you are a sinner and broken Gods laws. Going to church which is a hospital for sinners and asking for forgiveness. In church paying your dues, helping charities and spread the good news.

How can you say atheists are more admired than believers? As i have said , dont judge, i havent judged anyone here and you shouldnt either. Do you know that the main reason why Bill gates isnt doing this for tax purposes, raise his profile, make his company more attractive? I dont know, you dont know, i am not saying that he is, but there is only one judge. Just because Gates does this doesnt make him a better or worse person than anyone else.

Have you heard of Albert Pujols  who just signed a $250 mill contractand his foundation for children with down syndrome? Yes, he and his family are deeply religious.

What a pathetic statement you make and very narrow minded.

Furthermore, through my faith, when you make a donation you dont boast about it, as God hates boasters. the real reward is when you do it in private. I am not saying that because Pujols and gates advertise or make it known about there charities that it counts for nothing, absolutely not, but rather dont judge people.

 

 


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

devilsadvoc8 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Yes, the 10 commandments.

Ok.  So I am not a sinner if I rape or molest a child.  Yet saying jesus fucking christ when being exasperated will make me eligible for damnation.  And you were the one questioning if atheists acted logically?  Get a grip man, your rules and tenets are a manmade fiction used to buttress ancient power hungry dictators' place in society through a false premise of moral superiority.  It is a sad condemnation on humans as a whole that it has taken this long for the free thinker to be able to voice their opinion without threat of inquisition or death let alone the fact that the majority on this planet still fall for the immense pile of shit that is religion no matter what the brand (Marvel, Islam, DC or christianity etc).  Religion has repeatadely lost any and all moral high ground through its actions and inactions over human history.  So you can take your "sinner" concept and keep it to yourself.  You and any other supporter of religious dogma are far worse human beings than I am. 

Christians have completely trashed the entire "10 Commandments" thing.

The "10 Commandments" aren't the only commandments G-d ever gave.  They also pick and choose which ones they still want to follow -- they believe Jesus is a god, and then run off and make (and sell!) graven images.  They've got the multiple gods thing going with the three-in-one deal, the only thing holy about their "sabbath" day is football, they think bacon cheeseburgers are delicious.

What is your religion?


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blacklight915 wrote:Conigman

blacklight915 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

have a think about that, your consience

taken from the wikipedia page of the same name:

"In psychological terms conscience is often described as leading to feelings of remorse when a human commits actions that go against his/her moral values and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when actions conform to such normsCommon secular or scientific views regard the capacity for conscience as probably genetically determined, with its subject probably learned or imprinted (like language) as part of a culture."

 

Conigman wrote:

How do you know what i believe? I follow the teachings the Christ, Christ does not teach to commit atrocities. Funny how the atheists are absolutely obsessed with the laws of the OT which applied to a society and law over 2000 years ago, yet dont mention Christ at all. which in the Catholic church applies today.

You asked "If this is what Christianity teaches, then why havent i done this?" and I gave you an answer.

What about this verse: http://bible.cc/matthew/5-17.htm as well as Matthew 5:18-5:20? They do not seem to agree with you...

 

Conigman wrote:

You really think so? I think it is nice idea and very motivating to give revenge to someone, no matter how that may be, but do i do it? No, but it sounds nice.

Do you mean "get revenge on someone"? Yes, I forgot the idea of revenge is appealing to many...

 

Conigman wrote:

Lets say for FACT you knew the world is going to end next week, and there is no God, what would you do?

Provided that everybody else knew it too, I would probably spend the time on some combination of hanging out and/or partying with my friends and being with my family.

If nobody else knew and I couldn't convince them, I may not change my routine much at all. Maybe I'd voice my feelings and opinions a lot more and be extra nice to everyone I see.

You need to do some research first bud. Jesus came to accomplish his goal, then when the law was fulfilled , it meant that it was NOT a legal bindinging institution today. If Christ failed to do what he came to do, then the law still applies today which is NOT the case.

 


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FurryCatHerder wrote:they

FurryCatHerder wrote:

they think bacon cheeseburgers are delicious

MOST people think bacon cheeseburgers are delicious. Of course, that doesn't mean they're healthy or that you should eat them...

 

Conigman wrote:

Where is it written in the bible that the earth is flat? The bible references the corners of the earth, but that is not a description of the earth. The bible isnt a claim that is a book on astronomy. In the case of the centre of the universe it is figuratively speaking., Remember the bible is a COLLECTION of  different books in one.  If i went to the library, ripped a chapter from a sci fi book, ripped a chapter from a poetry book, from a biography chapter and so on, and put them altogether in one book, does that mean the book will be read all with the same lense? I dont think so. It is a collection of all different books. The book says that Jesus opens doors, do you think Jesus stands at doors all day and opens and closes them literally? Or where it says if your right hand causes you to sin, then vut off your right hand, do you think god wants everyeone to walk around with no right hand? Cmon, i thought you were better than this. Do a bit of research.

"Do a bit of research." The guy's name is ex-minister.

Also, such a random collection a books sounds exceedingly unreliable; definitely NOT like something I would want to get advice from.

 

Conigman wrote:

Just like many atheists wish there isnt a God to judge them for all there bad deeds and not believing in him doesnt make it true that he doesnt exist. 

I could really use some evidence for this...

 

Conigman wrote:

Atheists think that theists wish there is an eternal life because they cannot face that death is the end.

This is a relatively common accusation. However, I would not make such a claim unless I could cite a statement they made that backs it up.

 

Conigman wrote:

Hey, if i want to live a life of sin and not be told what is right or wrong, i would then WISH God doesnt exist as i would much rather face an ultimate death rather than eternal torment.  maybe that is why atheists dont want to believe? That is just a private thought.

Well, it's certainly not private anymore...

It's not a question of want. The primary reason I doubt god(s) exist is that I haven't (yet) seen much credible evidence to suggest that they do. I could speculate about them all I want, but that doesn't make them real.

 


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Theory of inherent

Theory of inherent dishonesty in theism: a theist must act ignorant, dishonest, or both when defending belief in a God.  In the case of Con-man he seems to want to jump from topic to topic to avoid reality.

 

- Brian Sapient


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Conigman wrote:You need to

Conigman wrote:

You need to do some research first bud. Jesus came to accomplish his goal, then when the law was fulfilled , it meant that it was NOT a legal bindinging institution today. If Christ failed to do what he came to do, then the law still applies today which is NOT the case.

 

Matthew 5:17-5:20 as taken from the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Bible:

"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

Matthew 5:17-5:20 as taken from the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

Heaven and earth have not passed away or disappeared. If I remember correctly, the Pharisees and the scribes/teachers of the law prided themselves on following all 613 of God's commandments to the precise letter.

 

Also, there is nothing necessarily wrong with judging other people, being proud of your accomplishments, or telling people about the good things you've done. The things I have a problem with are condemnation, arrogance, and bragging.

 


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Conigman

Conigman wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Christians have completely trashed the entire "10 Commandments" thing.

The "10 Commandments" aren't the only commandments G-d ever gave.  They also pick and choose which ones they still want to follow -- they believe Jesus is a god, and then run off and make (and sell!) graven images.  They've got the multiple gods thing going with the three-in-one deal, the only thing holy about their "sabbath" day is football, they think bacon cheeseburgers are delicious.

What is your religion?

I'm Jewish.

I was raised in a devoutly Christian family, my grandfather was a Baptist missionary, I've got more clergy and clergy related people in my extended family than I can shake a stick at, and I spent a fair number of years as a "Jesus Freak" when I was a teenager.

Christianity is polytheistic and a perversion of the Jewish religion, and that's "Jacks or better to open."

And learn how to use the "Quote" feature, while you're at it.  Your posts are very hard to read.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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blacklight915 wrote:Conigman

blacklight915 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

You need to do some research first bud. Jesus came to accomplish his goal, then when the law was fulfilled , it meant that it was NOT a legal bindinging institution today. If Christ failed to do what he came to do, then the law still applies today which is NOT the case.

Heaven and earth have not passed away or disappeared. If I remember correctly, the Pharisees and the scribes/teachers of the law prided themselves on following all 613 of God's commandments to the precise letter.

Also, there is nothing necessarily wrong with judging other people, being proud of your accomplishments, or telling people about the good things you've done. The things I have a problem with are condemnation, arrogance, and bragging.

The first mistake that Christians make is they claim the Torah can be changed -- the Torah is clear, it cannot be changed.  The second is that there was no time limit on the laws given in the Torah.  They are given for =all= time.

As for who kept all 613 of G-d's commandments, it was a lot more than the scribes, teachers, etc.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:They've

FurryCatHerder wrote:

They've got the multiple gods thing going with the three-in-one deal

True, but I really like holiday sales: "Buy one god, get TWO free!"

 

Or maybe: "Why be Jewish when you can worship more gods with less work? Christianity: get more for less!"

 

Though I doubt Conigman will appreciate me mocking his religion...

 


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blacklight915

blacklight915 wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

They've got the multiple gods thing going with the three-in-one deal

True, but I really like holiday sales: "Buy one god, get TWO free!"

Or maybe: "Why be Jewish when you can worship more gods with less work? Christianity: get more for less!"

Sounds like a bit that used to play on Dr. Demento about the 2,000 year old man.  If I remember I'll see if I can find it.

blacklight915 wrote:
Though I doubt Conigman will appreciate me mocking his religion...

We could play good-cop, bad-cop.  You mock Christianity, I deconstruct it.  He'll become your new best friend in no time.

I had one poor guy so tied up in knots that he wound up claiming there were =two= last suppers.  Sort of contradicts that entire "last" thing.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Nice try... but, you are the weakest link...

Conigman wrote:

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........

 

That invisible, intangible sentient beings with magical powers who dwell in an extra dimensional space, yet can affect the physical universe do not exist is a given. There is no god or gods.

Religion, the codified superstition that has arisen around belief in these preposterous beings does exist.

The mental defect known as faith exists. It poisons rationality and retards society.

The actions of those afflicted with the superstitious dread and primitive fervor of religion makes a very real mark on my world.

People do not kill because they do or do not believe in a god. People may use their beliefs to justify their actions but mere belief has never killed anyone. That being said, I would point out that no one ever has killed anyone in the name of atheism. Ever. No one, no mass murdering maniac has ever justified his deeds in the name of atheism. 

But what excuses the religious monsters? Invariably, each religion pays lip service to love and peace, yet still, some march forward, slaughtering all before them. From the crusades, to the burnings of witches and heretics. From the genocides of native peoples to the mad bombers dieing with their gods name on their lips.
It's not the success of religion I despise, it's its failure.

I don't care if you believe in invisible, intangible beings with magical powers. I don't care if you think that fairies flit about your garden. I don't care if you wear a tinfoil hat to ward off the alien messages being beamed into your head. I don't waste a moment of my time disputing your delusions.

I do care when the faithful try to translate their beliefs into law that affects me and those I care about.
I do care when violence is done in the name of those beliefs.
I do care that you expect me to subsidize your superstitions with my tax dollars.

Quit telling me that science must not explore meaningful research because it offends your god.
Quit telling the women in my life that your religion can dictate what they can and can't do with their bodies.
Quit trying to foist your mythology off on my grand children in place of real science.
Quit trying to tell people I love that who they choose to love isn't acceptable.

LC >;-}>

Christianity: A disgusting middle eastern blood cult, based in human sacrifice, with sacraments of cannibalism and vampirism, whose highest icon is of a near naked man hanging in torment from a device of torture.


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Coni you are shoving your nit picking

 Okay, Coni started off saying Jesus this Jesus that and that all true christians follow only christian teachings and that current and true catholics follow jesus's teachings... and then he references the old testament in regards to raping being illegal... But he stated with Jesus the old laws were out and just the new laws are in... Real quick, some one list who got handed the 10 commandments he uses as his source of governance? was it jesus? paul? mike? oh wait no it was well before that back in the OT times...but he said that was all thrown out...

And in regards to kick out the OT and only use the NT....    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”  (Matthew 5:18-19 RSV)   

There you go, and let us not forget...  "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid."  (Luke 16:17 NAB) 

 

And... "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.  I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.  Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."  (Matthew 5:17 NAB)

 

And yes i can keep going but you get the point hopefully....Jesus did not say stop the old testament laws, he just added a few new ones.  And in regards to Jesus never doing something bad? mmmm yeah... And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.  "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS) 

 

Not seen a single religious person move a mountain through telepathically talking to zombie jew supreme... And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)

 

I know a lot of people that devoutly pray and ask jesus for stuff all the time, not a single one has ever got it heh, oh and let us not forget.. you said the NT does not order you to do harm and what not...


Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah.  Mark 6:11 

And yet again your own holy book calls you a liar. 

You wanted to know why atheist rail against religion, it is cause of things such as these. These statements of hate, violence, lies, and falsehoods that detract from the advancement of the human race as a whole. Your religion is but one on the long list of out dated myths that do not hold any sway in a scientific world, and are unable to stand up to true examination. You state an atheist's life lacks Ultimate meaning due to the absence of reward in the end, but that is not true.

There is a reward for your death, you decompose, and restart the cycle of life on this planet. And when this planet dies and gets ripped apart either from gravitational forces or an asteroid or the dozens of other ways that it can die then it too will contribute to the creation of new life. The building of stars, planets, galaxies and the universe itself.

The death of the universe is still a mystery along with the birth of it. It is not a mystery to be handed over to the myth of some divinely inspired being for that stops the purpose of trying to understand it. Your concepts of relative and ultimate meaning are completely and totally personal and in no way or form affect mine or others. You thinking that with no reward and eternal life means it is meaningless is 100% your personal opinion and nothing more. 

And for the sake of argument lets look at your earlier statements of Pol pot, Stalin, and Hitler... Ok then, hitler not an atheist but why not, pol pot religious as well as a previous poster indicated, Stalin was semi-religious but less orthodox and more state centric dogmatic belief, and let us not forget you have Mao, now there was a mean SOB and yet again state religion. Oh i know, the other crazy mass murderer you did not mention, since we are saying they are to blame through their connection to the act let us not let Pope Pius XII off the hook for the Holocaust, since he refused to say it was happening when he knew it was...  Oh and lets go with the French wars of religion like the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, Catholics killing protestants, and protestants killing catholics... oh yeah great times that.

 

I have tried to cover all your points but if i missed one please do say so and i will happily address it.

 


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Why talk about it?

In response to your query about why atheists spend time discussing atheism and religion.  First and foremost, I think you need to get your facts straight.  By far, when you look at prison statistics, 90-95% of incarcerated individuals are christian.  Of violent crime offenders, almost 90% christian.  THe entire prison population that identifies as atheist...less than 1%.  I would also like to point out that these stats are less than 5 years old I believe.   Now...I know for myself, I discuss the religion and atheism because I truly feel the religion is the crux of so many problems....I try to appeal to peoples' common sense and intelligence in hopes that something will "click" and they will begin to question...or at least think about their religion as opposed to accepting it blindly.  Additionally, I discuss it to remind people that we (atheists) are out here.  I like to point out that we live decent, moral lives without religion.  I'm not against people practicing religion...just do it behind closed doors and stop trying to force everyone to live under their religious rules.

Ro


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Thanks for the clip.

 Thanks for sharing this clip. I miss "Hitch" already. Most of us have the same basic ideas, but few express them as well as he did. 

Larry Gott


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Conigman, every single one

Conigman, every single one of your posts is messed up after you started using the quote function. See here - How To Use The Quote Function.

Ro, your profile picture is too large. Please upload a picture with smaller dimensions. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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Sapient wrote:Theory of

Sapient wrote:

Theory of inherent dishonesty in theism: a theist must act ignorant, dishonest, or both when defending belief in a God.  In the case of Con-man he seems to want to jump from topic to topic to avoid reality.

 

Or when an atheist says that things can pop into existence uncaused.........Thats really logical, honest and non ignorant........LOLOL

 


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blacklight915 wrote:Conigman

blacklight915 wrote:

Conigman wrote:

You need to do some research first bud. Jesus came to accomplish his goal, then when the law was fulfilled , it meant that it was NOT a legal bindinging institution today. If Christ failed to do what he came to do, then the law still applies today which is NOT the case.

 

Matthew 5:17-5:20 as taken from the English Standard Version (ESV) of the Bible:

"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

Matthew 5:17-5:20 as taken from the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

Heaven and earth have not passed away or disappeared. If I remember correctly, the Pharisees and the scribes/teachers of the law prided themselves on following all 613 of God's commandments to the precise letter.

 

Also, there is nothing necessarily wrong with judging other people, being proud of your accomplishments, or telling people about the good things you've done. The things I have a problem with are condemnation, arrogance, and bragging.

 

Do you even know what that quote means? What context it is written in? The purpose of that quote?

Looking at your response it appears you have no idea.

Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law. If he failed to do it, it would be legally binding today. But be fulfilled it, therefore we arent binded to.  We are bound by the teachings and laws of the NT.

Its not very hard to understand it.

Primary school kids understand this...

 

 


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Conigman wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Christians have completely trashed the entire "10 Commandments" thing.

The "10 Commandments" aren't the only commandments G-d ever gave.  They also pick and choose which ones they still want to follow -- they believe Jesus is a god, and then run off and make (and sell!) graven images.  They've got the multiple gods thing going with the three-in-one deal, the only thing holy about their "sabbath" day is football, they think bacon cheeseburgers are delicious.

What is your religion?

I'm Jewish.

I was raised in a devoutly Christian family, my grandfather was a Baptist missionary, I've got more clergy and clergy related people in my extended family than I can shake a stick at, and I spent a fair number of years as a "Jesus Freak" when I was a teenager.

Christianity is polytheistic and a perversion of the Jewish religion, and that's "Jacks or better to open."

And learn how to use the "Quote" feature, while you're at it.  Your posts are very hard to read.

This isnt a thread about Christianity v Judaism.

Secondly, before you make comments about Christian people i suggest you look in your own backyard first. Dont throw stones in glass houses.


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Bravo

Louis_Cypher wrote:

Conigman wrote:

Atheists have commonly said this life is the only one that we have therefore every minute is precious. If this is the case, why do atheists spend so much of their "precious" time talking about, discussing, arguing, researching and complaining about something they dont believe exists?

How many of you are on big foot, tooth fairy and Lepricorn websites arguing with believers that what they believe exists is false?

Now i suppose i will hear responses regarding the negative impacts religions have on society, however the last time i checked, the biggest mass murderers in history are atheists. I am not saying that atheism caused these mass killings, but am just pointing out that this reason shows that the objection is false.

So atheists, why do you spend so much time.

Talk about irrational........

 

That invisible, intangible sentient beings with magical powers who dwell in an extra dimensional space, yet can affect the physical universe do not exist is a given. There is no god or gods.

Religion, the codified superstition that has arisen around belief in these preposterous beings does exist.

The mental defect known as faith exists. It poisons rationality and retards society.

The actions of those afflicted with the superstitious dread and primitive fervor of religion makes a very real mark on my world.

People do not kill because they do or do not believe in a god. People may use their beliefs to justify their actions but mere belief has never killed anyone. That being said, I would point out that no one ever has killed anyone in the name of atheism. Ever. No one, no mass murdering maniac has ever justified his deeds in the name of atheism. 

But what excuses the religious monsters? Invariably, each religion pays lip service to love and peace, yet still, some march forward, slaughtering all before them. From the crusades, to the burnings of witches and heretics. From the genocides of native peoples to the mad bombers dieing with their gods name on their lips.
It's not the success of religion I despise, it's its failure.

I don't care if you believe in invisible, intangible beings with magical powers. I don't care if you think that fairies flit about your garden. I don't care if you wear a tinfoil hat to ward off the alien messages being beamed into your head. I don't waste a moment of my time disputing your delusions.

I do care when the faithful try to translate their beliefs into law that affects me and those I care about.
I do care when violence is done in the name of those beliefs.
I do care that you expect me to subsidize your superstitions with my tax dollars.

Quit telling me that science must not explore meaningful research because it offends your god.
Quit telling the women in my life that your religion can dictate what they can and can't do with their bodies.
Quit trying to foist your mythology off on my grand children in place of real science.
Quit trying to tell people I love that who they choose to love isn't acceptable.

LC >;-}>

 

Thanks for that, LC.

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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FurryCatHerder wrote: I

FurryCatHerder wrote:
 I think that for some, they are trying to argue their way into being Atheists, rather than having Atheism as something that just comes naturally, like breathing. 

If you really think belief in a god, or specifically in "G-d," as you so carefully put it (are you afraid the "loving god might smite you if you type the whole name?) is as natural as breathing, you should talk to a Swede or a Norwegian, who grew up in a society that is as secular as yours is religious.  There is nothing natural about God (I usually don't grant the capital letter, but since you do . . .). God is supernatural, which is exactly what persons who believe in reality object to. You are right that we atheists need to argue our way away from your G-d, because, like you, we were indoctrinated with supernaturalism when we were too young to understand what bullshit it was. It's not easy to be rational when irrational beliefs were drilled into your head by well-meaning but ignorant elders from your babyhood.

 

Larry Gott


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I have got what i needed

I have got what i needed from this forum. It has confirmed for me a few things. I will sum this up.

The common respnse that Religion is the cause of our problems in society is laughable. As i have stated here, atheists were the masterminds of the biggest atrocities in the history of humanity (nothing comes close). I am not saying for 1 minute that atheism CAUSED these men to behave the way they did, but rather taking the point that even without religion men will committ and do bad things.

Another reason is that people dont want religious views enforced on them in society. Well, the last time i checked, every single human being on this planet is entitled to voice there opinions and express their thoughts. Just because there views do not match your criteria doesnt mean Christians have to stop. 

The laws in the old testament. There is a fascination and obsession by atheists with the laws of the OT. Maybe it gives them a reason to hate God, i dont know. I find it funny that atheists pick and pluck quotes from the OT and the NT without understanding the old laws from the new laws. Even though Christian doctrine shows that Christ fulfilled the Mosaic laws meaning they are not binding today, yet atheists still refuse to acknowledge this. Its like when cars were first built, there were some laws where it was not illegal to drink and drive, atheists will think because that law was in place so many years, it will still apply to today, even though it has clearly been changed.

There are plenty of people around the world who have transformed there lives much for the better because of religion and a belief in God, yet these people do not get a mention conviniently.

I have said no where that Christians or believers are better people than non believers or vice a verse.  Funnily enough i have heard someone here say that non believers are better people than believers. Every human being is a sinner, no one should say one person is worse than the other. That is not what Christ taught us. People that use crimes in the name of religion are just committing crimes for their own selfish purpose but then hiding behind God. If you believe this then you can easily be manipulated.

I have been a Catholic all my life, i am not perfect like everyone else, i go to church every week, listen to the Gospel, pray / meditate, make peace with everyone, donate my dues then try and live my life to the best of faith. How am i harming anyone? How am i causing such a nuicanse to anyone? Why hate me for this? I have atheist friends, non Christian friends, i have homosexual friends, i have not said to anyone of them that they will go to hell  etc. I have never told anyone they are going to hell. I dont think i am better than them. There are plenty of people just like me, in fact probably even better people than me.

Some pretty bad arguments here. It appears that the atheists on here arent even proper atheists rather just anti God.

 

 

 


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It's difficult to see why you would

 

Conigman wrote:

 

Again, this thread is not about proofs of Gods existence.

 

 

ask us why we speak out against a god who we believe does not exist yet deny us the right to bring in proof/data. We speak out against your hypothetical god concept because it is unsupported by the data and its doctrine is harmful.

That you again try to side-step proof, to neutralise proof, in a discussion like this one is indicative of your inability to comprehend good arguments when they are in front of you.  

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Bye bye Conig, many thanks

Conigman wrote:

I have got what i needed from this forum. It has confirmed for me a few things. I will sum this up.

The common respnse that Religion is the cause of our problems in society is laughable. As i have stated here, atheists were the masterminds of the biggest atrocities in the history of humanity (nothing comes close). I am not saying for 1 minute that atheism CAUSED these men to behave the way they did, but rather taking the point that even without religion men will committ and do bad things.

Another reason is that people dont want religious views enforced on them in society. Well, the last time i checked, every single human being on this planet is entitled to voice there opinions and express their thoughts. Just because there views do not match your criteria doesnt mean Christians have to stop. 

The laws in the old testament. There is a fascination and obsession by atheists with the laws of the OT. Maybe it gives them a reason to hate God, i dont know. I find it funny that atheists pick and pluck quotes from the OT and the NT without understanding the old laws from the new laws. Even though Christian doctrine shows that Christ fulfilled the Mosaic laws meaning they are not binding today, yet atheists still refuse to acknowledge this. Its like when cars were first built, there were some laws where it was not illegal to drink and drive, atheists will think because that law was in place so many years, it will still apply to today, even though it has clearly been changed.

There are plenty of people around the world who have transformed there lives much for the better because of religion and a belief in God, yet these people do not get a mention conviniently.

I have said no where that Christians or believers are better people than non believers or vice a verse.  Funnily enough i have heard someone here say that non believers are better people than believers. Every human being is a sinner, no one should say one person is worse than the other. That is not what Christ taught us. People that use crimes in the name of religion are just committing crimes for their own selfish purpose but then hiding behind God. If you believe this then you can easily be manipulated.

I have been a Catholic all my life, i am not perfect like everyone else, i go to church every week, listen to the Gospel, pray / meditate, make peace with everyone, donate my dues then try and live my life to the best of faith. How am i harming anyone? How am i causing such a nuicanse to anyone? Why hate me for this? I have atheist friends, non Christian friends, i have homosexual friends, i have not said to anyone of them that they will go to hell  etc. I have never told anyone they are going to hell. I dont think i am better than them. There are plenty of people just like me, in fact probably even better people than me.

Some pretty bad arguments here. It appears that the atheists on here arent even proper atheists rather just anti God.

 

 

for sharing your confirmation bias. You seem to be just another theist who cherry picks the christian doctrine to find points that support his internal human morality while insisting his sense of right and wrong is based on the bible. 

Take care and enjoy your life. And remember - harm no other. In thought or in deed...

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Conigman wrote:I have got

Conigman wrote:

I have got what i needed from this forum. It has confirmed for me a few things. I will sum this up.

The common respnse that Religion is the cause of our problems in society is laughable. As i have stated here, atheists were the masterminds of the biggest atrocities in the history of humanity (nothing comes close). I am not saying for 1 minute that atheism CAUSED these men to behave the way they did, but rather taking the point that even without religion men will committ and do bad things.

Another reason is that people dont want religious views enforced on them in society. Well, the last time i checked, every single human being on this planet is entitled to voice there opinions and express their thoughts. Just because there views do not match your criteria doesnt mean Christians have to stop. 

The laws in the old testament. There is a fascination and obsession by atheists with the laws of the OT. Maybe it gives them a reason to hate God, i dont know. I find it funny that atheists pick and pluck quotes from the OT and the NT without understanding the old laws from the new laws. Even though Christian doctrine shows that Christ fulfilled the Mosaic laws meaning they are not binding today, yet atheists still refuse to acknowledge this. Its like when cars were first built, there were some laws where it was not illegal to drink and drive, atheists will think because that law was in place so many years, it will still apply to today, even though it has clearly been changed.

There are plenty of people around the world who have transformed there lives much for the better because of religion and a belief in God, yet these people do not get a mention conviniently.

I have said no where that Christians or believers are better people than non believers or vice a verse.  Funnily enough i have heard someone here say that non believers are better people than believers. Every human being is a sinner, no one should say one person is worse than the other. That is not what Christ taught us. People that use crimes in the name of religion are just committing crimes for their own selfish purpose but then hiding behind God. If you believe this then you can easily be manipulated.

I have been a Catholic all my life, i am not perfect like everyone else, i go to church every week, listen to the Gospel, pray / meditate, make peace with everyone, donate my dues then try and live my life to the best of faith. How am i harming anyone? How am i causing such a nuicanse to anyone? Why hate me for this? I have atheist friends, non Christian friends, i have homosexual friends, i have not said to anyone of them that they will go to hell  etc. I have never told anyone they are going to hell. I dont think i am better than them. There are plenty of people just like me, in fact probably even better people than me.

Some pretty bad arguments here. It appears that the atheists on here arent even proper atheists rather just anti God.

 

 

 

Your complete inability to understand anything is laughable. Hitler not atheist, by any stretch, might not have liked the catholic chruch, used Martin Luther (founder of the Lutheran Church and a german) writings as the moral compass for the nazi regime, even worse wanted and made a german national church, stated many times that he was doing gods will far more than any atheistic quote you have even tried to use. As for Stalin was more political in his atheistic approach, the fact that he allow the church in russia after WWII and that he attempted to relax the rules even more, however the communist politicians wouldn't allow it, even worse it there is more evidence that he probably did believe in the concept of a higher being or deity. But if he believe in organized religion is a different topic. Mao and Pot Pol also fell for the worse thing that religion has been doing for 1000's of years, they followed ideology and dogma unquestionably. That is the danger that is the problem at hand, they never once did anything because of atheism, that is the lie you are trying to pass off, they did it because of their dogmatic beliefs be it political or ideological. That is the danger, and I stand against those beliefs as well.

As for the rest of your drivel, you seem to not understand the problem at hand, believe all the fuck you want, in the end, I don't care that you believe in your imaginary being. What i do care is when it attempted or imposed on society that everyone has to follow the rules of religion, when the religious (don't care which religion) tries to dictact the moral, standards and interaction of the people within a society, the moment it is said, my god(s) says and it means that we all have to, is the moment I speak up and declare BULLSHIT. I do not have to follow any religious commandments at all, I have to follow the rules and laws of society and those rules and laws should be challenged and changed from time to time in order to meet the changes in societies morality and the evidence that contradicts those rules and laws as being good for a society. With that said, anti god? No one here that says they are an atheist believe in any deities, it doesn't matter the religions, and for the most part many of us (me included) don't believe in supernatural claims without proper evidence. So far ZERO evidence for any god or goddess or deity of any kind.

Kick in the fact that there are religious elements in society that try to dictate how a society should act, how people should interact with each other, what women should do, what men should do, who can get married or who can't, what I can do with my body or can't, what I should believe in or I shouldn't, how I should have sex. That is why we discuss religion and it's claim, the fact that the majority of us live in a heavily christian religious population doesn't mean we are not against other religions and their beliefs, but that we discuss that which affect us directly at the moment. I have had my discussions with about almost every religion on this planet with followers of said religion, I still do not find any evidence that they hold any more truth than you in your claims. On the contrary, they hold none but superstition and faith (belief that something is true even if all evidence contradicts that belief). In the end it is our right to do so, and if you do not like it, go cry me a river. You have the right to believe and discuss your beliefs and we have the right to ours.

{edit: some spelling mistakes}


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Conigman, we have addressed all of your claims repeatedly, and you still misrepresent us.

 


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Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Conigman wrote:

 

Again, this thread is not about proofs of Gods existence.

 

 

It's difficult to see why you would ask us why we speak out against a god who we believe does not exist yet deny us the right to bring in proof/data. We speak out against your hypothetical god concept because it is unsupported by the data and its doctrine is harmful.

That you again try to side-step proof, to neutralise proof, in a discussion like this one is indicative of your inability to comprehend good arguments when they are in front of you.  

Conigman likes to make convenient dodges.  He complains that atheists only speak out against the social evils of religion, then complains when we speak out against the irrationality of theism itself. 

 

 


ex-minister
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Conigman wrote:ex-minister

Conigman wrote:

ex-minister wrote:

Conigman wrote:

 

The bible gives us clear instructions as to what to do in the case of self defense, which is similar to the state law on self defense. Pauls letters also give us guidelines in regards to lying.

Why would a deity try and decieve us? The only being that tries to decieve us is Satan.

 

1. please provide chapter and verse for self-defense and for Paul's allowing for lying.

Exodus, "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed".

 

 

2. God does deceive us, the Bible clearly states it. He sends lying spirits & delusions.  

 

1 kings 22:21-22 wrote:

 

 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

“So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

 

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 wrote:

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness

These are how God brings judgement on those who do not repent and continue there own wicked ways. Anyone who does not believe in God  and continually denies him is subject to this delusion. It is one form of judgement. God is a God of love and God of wrath. He is not out personal Genie.

 

 

 

So where is the text that says you can lie from Paul? In such example as to protect the Jews during WWII.

Glad to see you agree Gpd does lie and send delusions. Good that is cleared up. God breaks all his commandments. He says one thing and does another. Not the best example I have ever seen. I find better examples in the people around me.

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
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Jesus is worse than Jehovah.

 

Conigman wrote:

How do you know what i believe? I follow the teachings the Christ, Christ does not teach to commit atrocities. Funny how the atheists are absolutely obsessed with the laws of the OT which applied to a society and law over 2000 years ago, yet dont mention Christ at all. which in the Catholic church applies today.

Jesus talks about hell more than anyone in the OT. In fact the concept of hell is essentially the grave in the OT. In the NT it is a lake of fire where those who sent there will burn for all eternity. 70 years of not believing in Him EQUAL to billions and billions and trillions and trillions of years of horrible suffering. The God of the OT was a much nicer guy. If you broke a commandment you were punished and it might even being stoned to death. But Jesus, meek and mild, say EVEN if you think of breaking a commandment you are better to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand, otherwise he will ensure you burn and burn and burn and burn.

If I had my druthers I will elect the God of the OT to be in charge not the bloody-thirsty Jesus.

 

(yeah FurryCatHerder, that's right I said it).

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


ex-minister
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Conigman wrote:  This is

Conigman wrote:

 

This is where you are not understanding.

Ok, if an atheist gives up his or her life, it is called a sacrifice. It is called a sacrifice because the remaining people on this earth are ABLE to call it a sacrifice. If there is no earth, no universe, is there anyone to call the actions of the soldier a sacrifice? Of course not, that is why the sacrifice is considered ULTIMATELY stupid.

Consider this.

Lets say for FACT you knew the world is going to end next week, and there is no God, what would you do?

Would you do things that will give you pleasure and enjoyment OR do things that require sacrifice or a combination of both? Which one?

 

 

If the world was going to end next week I would get my family together and hug them and tell them how much I love them. I would spend my last hours with them and a few friends. That gives me joy and meaning in life.  I don't know what you mean by sacrifice at this point. But if I saw someone hurting someone else I will do what I could to stop them. That is just who I am. Sorry it is meaningless to you. You sound like you have an empty life.

 

How do you answer your question? There is one week left for the world, what would you do?

 

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/