Israel FINALLY gets treated the way it deserves to be.

Vastet
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Israel FINALLY gets treated the way it deserves to be.

Americans: Fuck your nukes. No more hypocrisy. (Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none).

Greece has withdrawn from joint military exercises with Israel in protest at the attack on the Gaza flotilla. Athens has also barred the head of the Israeli airforce from flying to Greece.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner says he is "deeply shocked" by the Israeli action and calls for an inquiry

Turkish foreign ministry warns Israel of irreparable damage to bilateral ties. "This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations," a statement read.

Sweden summons the Israeli ambassador to Stockholm over the "unacceptable" action

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Don't criticize Israel

Don't criticize Israel Cartman. YOU JEW HATER! You're not allowed to tell your friends you don't like what they are doing.

I really hate it when people accuse you of hate, Muslim/Jew/Christian,,,ect ect ect ect when all you are saying is "STOP BEING SO STUPID!"

I think both sides in that conflict are doing bat shit insane things. But what bugs me is that Israel is supposed to be the westernized pluralistic democratic adult . Sometimes I just don't see that.

I am not going to condemn them totally other than to say the same thing I'd tell the Muslims. THE "DADDY SAID THIS WAS MY LAND" crap is that, CRAP!

 

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This is a totally despicable

This is a totally despicable action on Israel's part, removes whatever remaining shred of claim they may have had to the 'moral high ground'.

Suicide bombers are bat-shit insane and evil as well, but this action, of top of the continuing prevention of the inhabitants of Gaza from getting access to the basic necessities of a half-way decent life, is also totally crazy and immoral. It is fucking stupid as well, as it will continue to provoke the other side into yet more insane counter-attacks.

 

 

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Israel has been engaged in

Israel has been engaged in genocidal policies since 1947. United states have condoned and supported all of it's actions since 1967. There is no chance that this course of action will change, untill internal US pressure from the population mounts to a significant cost to the political course within US itself.

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Pay more attention. It

Pay more attention. It changed.

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Vastet wrote:Pay more

Vastet wrote:
Pay more attention. It changed.

Oh, so Obama has suspended all arms shipments to Israel? No? So nothing happened? Ok then.

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I don't see 'genocidal' as a

I don't see 'genocidal' as a very appropriate description of policies on either side in this conflict. That implies an active 'targeting' of a whole nationality or ethnicity. While there is undoubtedly a lot of of ethnic and religious intolerance on each side, there is much more than that here.

The conflicts in the Middle East strike me more as extreme paranoia and counter-productive actions in responding to real and perceived threats against one's own side, on the part of each side, leading to a viscous cycle of violence and provocation, that has persisted at least since the founding of Israel, and in some form far earlier than that.

When you have the insanity of 'the one true God' of Islam on one side, and the extreme self-important 'chosen-people' attitude of Judaism on the other, trying to live along side each other, such conflict is all but inevitable.

Even if most people on each side would be prepared to just go about their life in peace, the more extreme elements on each side can all too easily play on their fears and any problems that arise to blame the other side, 'and so it goes'...

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:I don't see

BobSpence1 wrote:

I don't see 'genocidal' as a very appropriate description of policies on either side in this conflict.

Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians who dedicated their lives to work on the Israel-Palestina issue. Prof. Norman G. Finkelstein is one of those and his parents actually survived the Holocaust and Nazi death camps - that is about as jewish as you can get.

You would disagree with him in calling what is going on in Gaza and the West bank a "conflict" - as if there are two sides to some war. As Prof. Finkelstein amply documents in his books (Beyond Chutzpah is one of these works, highly supported by the documented evidence on the ground provided by humaniterian organizations, involved diplomats etc. and higly recognized by his peers, where he reveals plagiarism and fraud commited by Prof. Alan Dershowitz of the Harward University in his book Chutzpah), there is no evidence of an actual ongoing war - the numbers simply do not add up. The palestinian population consists of 1.5 million people with an average age of 15(!) crammed so tightly that the Gaza and the West Bank are the most populated place on earth. They are largely unarmed, their movement is restricted to certain areas and in their movement they are guarantied hours of waiting on check points, where they risk abuse, harm or even death at the hands of Israeli soldiers, who by the way constitute one of the strongest and most sophisticated military forces on the face of the earth, thanks to US arms shipments. Humanitarian supplies, water and electricity in the area are cut off by Israel at will, incurring huge losses due to dire medical conditions that occure in the area. Israeli army poses a grave threat to the Palestinian population, most recently demonstrated in the attack of the Gaza strip in 2009, when Israeli military killed over 1300 Palestinians, 300+ of them children, in a span of time shorter than two weeks, while at the same time 14 israeli died as a consequence of hostilities - 9 of them Israeli SOLDIERS!!! (numbers supplied by nummerous humanitarian organizations, including Amnesty International)

This is NOT a war, this is aggression. The numbers are as clear as they can be - you would loose 5 civilians in the course of killing 1300 just doe to error - cost of operations during a large project, a cost of operating a humongous concentration camp perhaps.

BobSpence1 wrote:

That implies an active 'targeting' of a whole nationality or ethnicity. While there is undoubtedly a lot of of ethnic and religious intolerance on each side, there is much more than that here.

Again, I will point you to the life work of Norman G. Finkelstein and his extensive documentation of exactly the targeting of Palestinian population for the purpose of ethnic clensing of Palestine since 1947 until today.

BobSpence1 wrote:

The conflicts in the Middle East strike me more as extreme paranoia and counter-productive actions in responding to real and perceived threats against one's own side, on the part of each side, leading to a viscous cycle of violence and provocation, that has persisted at least since the founding of Israel, and in some form far earlier than that.

The "conflicts" in the Middle East strike you as they would someone who has never bothered to pay the least amount of attention to what is going on.

BobSpence1 wrote:

When you have the insanity of 'the one true God' of Islam on one side, and the extreme self-important 'chosen-people' attitude of Judaism on the other, trying to live along side each other, such conflict is all but inevitable.

Yes, and racism is solely responsible for slavery - no interests involved. If you believe that belief in God is the key reason for the conflicts ni the middle east, you are severely uninformed due to complete and utter lack of care for the issues. There exists a rady cure for the ignorance, but not for indifference.

BobSpence1 wrote:

Even if most people on each side would be prepared to just go about their life in peace, the more extreme elements on each side can all too easily play on their fears and any problems that arise to blame the other side, 'and so it goes'...

The "solid argument" of the self-perpetuating nature of the problem is complete and utter B U L L S H I T. Look at the history of veto on the issue in United Nations:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/usvetoes.html

Now, if you can look through that little demonstration of what is actaully going on and not get a feeling that someone here is getting fucked over, while someone else is protecting interests, you need to read the history of US veto in the Security Council:

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/geoff/UNresolutions.htm

and then think about what it means to veto "Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law".

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ZuS wrote: Well, you would

ZuS wrote:

Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians who dedicated their lives to work on the Israel-Palestina issue. Prof. Norman G. Finkelstein is one of those and his parents actually survived the Holocaust and Nazi death camps - that is about as jewish as you can get.

 

Again, I will point you to the life work of Norman G. Finkelstein and his extensive documentation of exactly the targeting of Palestinian population for the purpose of ethnic clensing of Palestine since 1947 until today.

 

The "conflicts" in the Middle East strike you as they would someone who has never bothered to pay the least amount of attention to what is going on.

You are so full of shit. I'm sick and tired of hearing of a genocide or 'slowocide' as idiots on my campus like to claim. The Palestinian population keeps growing. They are not being wiped out. Israel is not following policies that are reducing their numbers. It just isn't happening.

Take a hard look at what I quoted from your post. You think any of that is factually correct or good reasoning?

 

ZuS wrote:

Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians

Appeal to authority. And pick a better authority figure if you are going to attempt an appeal to authority. Finkelstein is, to put it lightly, a controversial figure. At best, he might be a lone crusader for the truth in opposition to mainstream views. At worst, he is a liar and poor scholar that is rejected by others in his field because of the shoddy quality of his work. Read what other scholars have written about his works. Chomsky loves him. Most others denounce him as a liar. This is the paragon of truth you are resting your appeal to authority on? A man recognized in his own field as a hack writer? A man denied tenure by his university? And you are comfortable with singing praises about his great scholarship?

 

ZuS wrote:

his parents actually survived the Holocaust and Nazi death camps - that is about as jewish as you can get.

Some new logical fallacy you invented that seems to be an appeal to Jewishness.

 

ZuS wrote:

the targeting of Palestinian population for the purpose of ethnic clensing of Palestine since 1947 until today.

Lies about how Israelis are trying to wipe out Palestinians. In West Bank and the Gaza strip the growth rates are 2.2% and 3.4% respectively. That isn't genocide. They just aren't being wiped out. Their population is growing in size rapidly. If anything, their population growth rate is dangerously high.

Come on! We're better than this.

 

As for the matter at hand:

 

Are these the peace activists you are talking about? They were attempting to break the blockade. Israeli soldiers tried to board them. They attacked the soldiers with metal poles and knives. 7 Israeli soldiers were injured. 15 to 19 'peace' activists were killed. This wasn't the Israelis gunning people down for shits and giggles. They tried to enforce the blockade. they 'peace' activists started beating the shit out of them. The Israelis opened fire. I don't consider this to be a massacre. The Israelis should have had the sense to wait for the boat to enter the exclusionary zone though. That's my only complaint.

If a group of people were attacking you with metal poles and knives, you wouldn't shoot them if you had the chance?

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jormungandr... why bother?

Jormungandr... why bother? It's just another whacky, leftist bleeding heart thread where all the "misguided idealists" (dumb campus kids? Probably!) start shouting "ZIONIST ENEMY!!!".
Anything you say will simply fall on 'deaf ears' (more or less), and if you try hard enough, you may even witness a 'pack mentality' of sorts retaliating against you!

Wasted time, man. Wasted time...

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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ZuS wrote:Israel has been

ZuS wrote:

Israel has been engaged in genocidal policies since 1947. United states have condoned and supported all of it's actions since 1967. There is no chance that this course of action will change, untill internal US pressure from the population mounts to a significant cost to the political course within US itself.

I'm going to guess the US and Britain knew about Israel's extracirricular (bloody!) activities with Palestinians since the 1950s , swiping the the timeline back a bit further.

 

You are correct that "nothing has changed", and even more correct in pointing out that nothing WILL change until Americans stop treating Israel as "holy land".

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Ditto........

 

 

 

               Jormungander  I agree with Kapkao on his points.  It is why I mostly do not take part in anti-Israel and anti-semetic postings it is a waste of time.

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The real problem.

Looks like they'll need more women pumping out lots of babies to replace the people killed in the upcomming wars and famine:

A Problem for Palestine: Gaza's Birthrate Highest in Middle East

Israel is starving Palestinians to lower birth rate

 

 

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Jeffrick

Jeffrick wrote:

Jormungander  I agree with Kapkao on his points.  It is why I mostly do not take part in anti-Israel and anti-semetic postings it is a waste of time.

Well, that's just how arguing on the internet works. Everyone yells at each other through their keyboards, no one changes their mind, wild hyperbole and logical fallacies are thrown around constantly. But it is true that people seem to be much less reasonable about Israel than about other topics. If I described the stuff I've heard and seen at my school about Israel, you would think I was making up stories. Let's just say that the FBI has yet again re-opened their investigation of our campus and that a few weeks ago the Chancellor mass emailed all of us to denounce certain students that advocated terrorism on campus.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Jormungander wrote:Well,

Jormungander wrote:
Well, that's just how arguing on the internet works. Everyone yells at each other through their keyboards, no one changes their mind, wild hyperbole and logical fallacies are thrown around constantly. But it is true that people seem to be much less reasonable about Israel than about other topics. If I described the stuff I've heard and seen at my school about Israel, you would think I was making up stories. Let's just say that the FBI has yet again re-opened their investigation of our campus and that a few weeks ago the Chancellor mass emailed all of us to denounce certain students that advocated terrorism on campus.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest meaningful debate is unlikely, simply that it has trouble surviving the double-blind environment of the internet.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Zus, I base my comments on a

Zus, I base my comments on a broader familiarity with the conflicts - WTF with putting that word in quotes; genocide or not, there certainly is conflict going on there - there and elsewhere, listening to BBC and US news podcasts and documentaries dealing with the whole situation.

I certainly did not claim that religion is the only reason for the conflict - that shows a serious misreading of what I said.

Religion is certainly a major factor, both as a symbol for many people in each group to rally around, and an indicator of the perspective of the culture on each side. I agree it is not the 'cause', that is a far too simplistic way of looking at these things.

The word 'genocide' is thrown around far too freely these days.

The restrictions imposed on the Palestinians are more likely and plausibly aimed at driving them out of the territory. I am not saying that the Israelis care much if they stay and die or move elsewhere, but I just don't see 'genocide' as a valid label to apply.

From a strictly 'racial' PoV, in so far as that term has any validity, the 'racial' differences between each side are minor. The common term 'anti-semitic' as applied to hatred of the Jewish people is an absurd example of this - most of the peoples of that region are semitic.

 

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Jormungander wrote:You are

Jormungander wrote:

You are so full of shit. I'm sick and tired of hearing of a genocide or 'slowocide' as idiots on my campus like to claim. The Palestinian population keeps growing. They are not being wiped out. Israel is not following policies that are reducing their numbers. It just isn't happening.

Take a hard look at what I quoted from your post. You think any of that is factually correct or good reasoning?

 

 

I don't think what you've said is correct or good reasoning. It's a kind of consequence intentionality fallacy. That is the erroneous belief that ones intent is evidenced by the results of their behavior. That's not necessarily true. Genocide though is a serious charge. I would have to know why the person thought it was genocidal and in what sense. According to the UN for example an intentional attempt to destroy part of a population, prevent births or curb the birth rates of a population would be genocidal.

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I am as guilty of using the

I am as guilty of using the wrong word to make an otherwise valid point as anyone on this message board... I think if we substitute the word "Genocide" for "Murderous Douche baggery"... most of the posts in this thread will stand up... 


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Gauche wrote:It's a kind of

Gauche wrote:
It's a kind of consequence intentionality fallacy. That is the erroneous belief that ones intent is evidenced by the results of their behavior.

For this to be true, the Israelis would have to honestly be attempting a genocide and they would have to be failing so miserably that the Palestinians have a higher population growth rate than any nation in the Middle East and one of the highest in the world. Believing this requires the Israelis to be super malevolent and super incompetent. I don't think that is the case, but I suppose it is possible. But then, we're talking about hypothetical goals they have they aren't attaining. So we can do little more than idle speculation.

Let me say that I don't see any evidence of a genocide. I see just the opposite: dangerously high population growth rates. So accusations of genocide seem ass-backwards to me. I too "would have to know why the person thought it was genocidal and in what sense." This needs to be made more clear.

My school had a "Israel: Holocaust in the Holy Land" week long event recently, so I'm still a little worked up over all the nonsense the Muslim Student Union was spouting off. Apologies if I'm a little short tempered in all this.

 

Quote:

According to the UN for example an intentional attempt to ... curb the birth rates of a population would be genocidal.

Relief workers in third world countries passing out birth control are committing genocide by this definition. I get it that forced sterilization on a large enough scale is genocide. But I would hope that the UN doesn't use that exact phrase in the quotes as a definition of genocide.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Their policies might be

Their policies might be genocidal and they might not. That's really not the point I was addressing. The effect does not prove the intent. That's why your argument is fallacious. Beyond that, genocidal policy doesn't necessarily preclude population growth. If I said to kill every first-born child, that would be genocidal (by some standards), even if the fertility rate was high enough to cause a population increase despite the policy.

 

EDIT: Relief workers don't really impose anything on people they offer a service for people who want to use it. I probably should have been more clear about that.

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I think this issue is just

I think this issue is just one part of the bigger picture.

 

Whether the Israelis were right or not on boarding the boats is shifting the focus from the root of the issue which is that Israel only lets in 25% of the required humanitarian aid required to the Gaza strip. The people that suffer the most from the conflict are the Palestinian civilians.

 

I think that's the most important issue here. Whether Israel is blocking humanitarian aid.

 

 

I fear the Israel will use this as an excuse to block even more aid.


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Jormungander wrote:ZuS

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians who dedicated their lives to work on the Israel-Palestina issue. Prof. Norman G. Finkelstein is one of those and his parents actually survived the Holocaust and Nazi death camps - that is about as jewish as you can get.

 

Again, I will point you to the life work of Norman G. Finkelstein and his extensive documentation of exactly the targeting of Palestinian population for the purpose of ethnic clensing of Palestine since 1947 until today.

 

The "conflicts" in the Middle East strike you as they would someone who has never bothered to pay the least amount of attention to what is going on.

You are so full of shit. I'm sick and tired of hearing of a genocide or 'slowocide' as idiots on my campus like to claim. The Palestinian population keeps growing. They are not being wiped out. Israel is not following policies that are reducing their numbers. It just isn't happening.

What has population growth have to do with arbitraty murder? Growth happens to be higher than the mass murder - does that mean there is no mass murder? The murders are amply documented and have been documented for half a century. Visit sites of major humanitarian organisations and look up the stats. Unless you think Amnesty International are crackpots who should stop all this business of helping people and start helping Israeli government in trying to achieve paradise for Palestinians.

Jormungander wrote:

Take a hard look at what I quoted from your post. You think any of that is factually correct or good reasoning?

Apart from the last sentence which is obviously my opinion, rest of it is sound. I introduce Finkelstein and his background and then refer to his work. You can question the credibility of his work if you want, or ask me to point out an actual example and then try to refute it, but otherwise it is a referal to a an actual historian. You can look at his work, look through references, or just go look through reports of the major humanitarian organizations on the ground that I meantioned.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians

Appeal to authority. And pick a better authority figure if you are going to attempt an appeal to authority. Finkelstein is, to put it lightly, a controversial figure. At best, he might be a lone crusader for the truth in opposition to mainstream views.

Not an appeal, introduction of. I am quite satisfied with Finkelstien's work, references and conclusions. Unlike vague populistic bullshitters and servants of power pretending to be scholars, he is an actual historian and quite a principled one at that.

Jormungander wrote:

At worst, he is a liar and poor scholar that is rejected by others in his field because of the shoddy quality of his work. Read what other scholars have written about his works. Chomsky loves him. Most others denounce him as a liar. This is the paragon of truth you are resting your appeal to authority on? A man recognized in his own field as a hack writer? A man denied tenure by his university? And you are comfortable with singing praises about his great scholarship?

Do you have any idea why he got denied tenure by his university? Do you have any idea what Dershowitz did in that epeisode? Do you have any idea of how huge support Finkelstein had and still has in the scholarly community and how isolated party-line "historians" are in general? You hear a lot from them, but there is a reason for that - they have access to powerful friends, namely government officials and that is easy reporting for an information outlet with zero interest in truth.

You need to refresh your information sources, 'cause the shit I think you listen to at the moment is the white noise of complacency with governmental violence.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

his parents actually survived the Holocaust and Nazi death camps - that is about as jewish as you can get.

Some new logical fallacy you invented that seems to be an appeal to Jewishness.

It is not an argument at all, just a note to make sure we stay away from anti-semitism claims - the favorite argument to end all arguments. Don't dwell at that too long, it's become a habit of mine dismissing claims of anti-this or that beforahand. Like I give a shit which etnicity the murderer is; I just want him stopped.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

the targeting of Palestinian population for the purpose of ethnic clensing of Palestine since 1947 until today.

Lies about how Israelis are trying to wipe out Palestinians. In West Bank and the Gaza strip the growth rates are 2.2% and 3.4% respectively. That isn't genocide. They just aren't being wiped out. Their population is growing in size rapidly. If anything, their population growth rate is dangerously high.

Come on! We're better than this.

Once again, I urge you to look at humanitarian reports from the West Bank and especially the Gaza strip. Intentionally cutting off electricity and water from hospitals, bombing urban areas, destruction and anexation of property often accompanied by violence, restricting movement during medical emergencies, blockade of food, medicine and other necessities, deportation of large numbers of ethnic minority and barring their return - all these are crimes. If you are occupying a territory, then they become war crimes. How far you want to go is up to you. I think these are sufficiently severe and the span of 60 years sufficiently long to constitute genocide. I am not a lawyer or a judge and I will not google the legal definition of genocide tonight. However, I am outraged to the point when I think that 'genocidal policy' is too mild a categorization and the most recent murders are nothing more than a show of blatant disregard for international law and human rights.

Jormungander wrote:

As for the matter at hand:

Are these the peace activists you are talking about? They were attempting to break the blockade. Israeli soldiers tried to board them. They attacked the soldiers with metal poles and knives. 7 Israeli soldiers were injured. 15 to 19 'peace' activists were killed.

15-19 civilians dead, 7 Israeli soldiers hurt. Are you listening to yourself? You are blaming dead civilians for confronting an illegal raid of their own boat by armed soldiers.

Jormungander wrote:

This wasn't the Israelis gunning people down for shits and giggles. They tried to enforce the blockade. they 'peace' activists started beating the shit out of them.

So, the people who came in to deliver food, water and medicine to people captured in a huge concentration camp, get boarded by trained commandos. And they get shot for daring to resist people with guns. Does this sound about right?

Jormungander wrote:

The Israelis opened fire. I don't consider this to be a massacre.

Good thing you don't run the International Court of Justice, eh?

Jormungander wrote:

The Israelis should have had the sense to wait for the boat to enter the exclusionary zone though. That's my only complaint.

Your only complaint is that they killed 15-19 civilians in an inconvinient place for you? They should have killed them in a better place?

Jormungander wrote:

If a group of people were attacking you with metal poles and knives, you wouldn't shoot them if you had the chance?

Actually, if we had half a morally, or even just legally defensible position in entering their boat and waving guns in their faces, I think we would have been reasonably safe, me and my 20 masked and armed to the teeth buddies with a chopper backup.

But this all is way past the point. Half of the population in Gaza are children and the conditions they live and die in are deplorable. This is what we should be "better then", you imbecile. See? I can call names too.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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I was listening to a

I was listening to a commentator this morning suggesting that part of Israeli policy is aimed at pissing off the population of Gaza and hoping that they will direct at least some of the anger at Hasballah for getting Israel annoyed. IOW, their intended message to Gaza is "stop supporting these guys who are attacking us, and we will relax our restrictions".

Israel is definitely blocking humanitarian aid, just as it is blocking or restricting all kinds of perfectly harmless stuff from getting into Gaza, and I think they are trying to make it clear to the people in Gaza that it is a because they are supporting Hasballah.

They have partially confused the issue here by referring to suspicions of possible arms or other restricted items not related to aid being 'smuggled in" as well.

 

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ZuS wrote:What has

ZuS wrote:

What has population growth have to do with arbitraty murder? 

It's how we as a species do population control. The Palestinians believe it's their duty to Allah to overpopulate and take over the 'promised' land from the infidels by shear numbers. The Jews believed the same thing in Europe leading to the holocaust.

So all this moralizing about how one side is so much much more moral is such BS. So is all the phony compassion. Poverty, war, genocide it's how we as a species do population control. It's how one tribe pushes out another. It's the history of the humanity repeated endlessly.

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BobSpence1 wrote:I was

BobSpence1 wrote:

I was listening to a commentator this morning suggesting that part of Israeli policy is aimed at pissing off the population of Gaza and hoping that they will direct at least some of the anger at Hasballah for getting Israel annoyed. IOW, their intended message to Gaza is "stop supporting these guys who are attacking us, and we will relax our restrictions".

Israel is definitely blocking humanitarian aid, just as it is blocking or restricting all kinds of perfectly harmless stuff from getting into Gaza, and I think they are trying to make it clear to the people in Gaza that it is a because they are supporting Hasballah.

They have partially confused the issue here by referring to suspicions of possible arms or other restricted items not related to aid being 'smuggled in" as well.

 

 

1] Hiz'ballah is in Lebanon, not Gaza

2] It isn't working out for Israel seeing as the people are MORE pissed at Israel.

3] I don't think this is the best way to improve Israel's image.

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

I was listening to a commentator this morning suggesting that part of Israeli policy is aimed at pissing off the population of Gaza and hoping that they will direct at least some of the anger at Hasballah for getting Israel annoyed. IOW, their intended message to Gaza is "stop supporting these guys who are attacking us, and we will relax our restrictions".

Israel is definitely blocking humanitarian aid, just as it is blocking or restricting all kinds of perfectly harmless stuff from getting into Gaza, and I think they are trying to make it clear to the people in Gaza that it is a because they are supporting Hasballah.

They have partially confused the issue here by referring to suspicions of possible arms or other restricted items not related to aid being 'smuggled in" as well. 

1] Hiz'ballah is in Lebanon, not Gaza

2] It isn't working out for Israel seeing as the people are MORE pissed at Israel.

3] I don't think this is the best way to improve Israel's image.

OK, it think it must have been Hamas, I couldn't go back to check what they said, it was off-air radio.

On your other two points, I completely agree.

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ZuS wrote:Vastet wrote:Pay

ZuS wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Pay more attention. It changed.

Oh, so Obama has suspended all arms shipments to Israel? No? So nothing happened? Ok then.

Oh so the news reports talking about anti-nuke resolutions that for the first time in history include Israel and are supported by the US are lies? Where's that eyeroll emotion....

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ZuS wrote:What has

ZuS wrote:

What has population growth have to do with arbitraty murder? Growth happens to be higher than the mass murder - does that mean there is no mass murder? The murders are amply documented and have been documented for half a century. Visit sites of major humanitarian organisations and look up the stats. Unless you think Amnesty International are crackpots who should stop all this business of helping people and start helping Israeli government in trying to achieve paradise for Palestinians.

The Israelis have only killed a few thousand Palestinians in the past few years. 6,348 in 10 years according to B'Tselem and UN OCHA. I am not advocating mass murder, but this isn't genocide. It just isn't.

Is it good that 6,300+ Palestinians were killed by the Israelis in 10 years? No. Is that Israel's attempt at wiping out the Palestinians? Also no. There are millions of Palestinians. Averaging less than 1,000 killed a year is in no way a genocide. Denounce it as evil murder all you want. But let's all admit that this isn't genocide.

 

ZuS wrote:

I introduce Finkelstein and his background and then refer to his work.

I don't think that's how things were phrased. I think it was more along the lines of "you agree with me, or you contradict an authority figure." I think it looks like an appeal to authority.

Let's reimagine this quote of yours:

Quote:
Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians who dedicated their lives to work on the Israel-Palestina issue.

as something along the lines of:

Quote:
Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected christian theologians who dedicated their lives to work on the necessity of Christ's sacrifice for the salvation of mankind.

See the appeal to authority? If a theist went in here and posted that, we would rightfully announce that this is an appeal to authority.

 

ZuS wrote:

However, I am outraged to the point when I think that 'genocidal policy' is too mild a categorization

You think that Israel's policies are worse than genocidal policy? What does that even mean?

 

 

ZuS wrote:

Unlike vague populistic bullshitters and servants of power pretending to be scholars, he is an actual historian and quite a principled one at that.

...

Do you have any idea of how huge support Finkelstein had and still has in the scholarly community and how isolated party-line "historians" are in general? You hear a lot from them, but there is a reason for that - they have access to powerful friends, namely government officials and that is easy reporting for an information outlet with zero interest in truth.

You need to refresh your information sources, 'cause the shit I think you listen to at the moment is the white noise of complacency with governmental violence.

This is officially tin foil hat territory. Basically: THE MAN is holding him down and making other historians act in bad faith when they claim he is inaccurate. That's the conspiracy theory that you are sticking with?

 

ZuS wrote:

So, the people who came in to deliver food, water and medicine to people captured in a huge concentration camp, get boarded by trained commandos. And they get shot for daring to resist people with guns. Does this sound about right?

I would disagree with 'concentration camp.' But yes, that's what happened. The boat was going to run the blockade, Israeli soldiers boarded it, the 'peace' activists on the boat went to town on the soldiers with clubs and knives, the soldiers fired on them. That's what happened.

 

ZuS wrote:

Your only complaint is that they killed 15-19 civilians in an inconvinient place for you? They should have killed them in a better place?

Yes. The Israelis should not have done this out on international waters. That is entirely unjustified. But once that boat crossed in to Israeli waters after being warned to turn away, I would have supported the Israelis boarding or firing on it. 

 

ZuS wrote:

But this all is way past the point. Half of the population in Gaza are children and the conditions they live and die in are deplorable. This is what we should be "better then", you imbecile. See? I can call names too.

That makes no sense. I said 'better than." ''Then' is dealing with time. 'Than' is dealing with a comparison. And I was clearly meaning "let's be better than appeals to authority and whatnot" rather than meaning "let's be better than deprived children."

Call me all the names you want. I think that your writing was shit in your first post. You think I'm an imbecile. I can live with that.

And I'm against the blockade on humanitarian aid. The Israelis should do everything to keep weapons and materials to make weapons out of Palestinian hands. They should allow genuine aid in, though.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Doomy's in "favor" of

Doomy's in "favor" of Israels actions, more-a-less

 

Israel has a military blockade on an enemy nation

Hippies want to supply aid to enemy nation

Hippies think its a good idea to run the blockade of militaryships

Israel's military proves why it was indeed a bad idea

 

Conclusion; Hippies are morons, and got what was coming to them

 

Now class, show of hands, who thinks its a good and safe idea to run a fucking military blockade in support of said military's enemy?

 

What Would Kharn Do?


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Doomy's in "favor" of Israels actions, more-a-less

Israel has a military blockade on an enemy nation

Hippies want to supply aid to enemy nation

Hippies think its a good idea to run the blockade of militaryships

Israel's military proves why it was indeed a bad idea

Conclusion; Hippies are morons, and got what was coming to them

Now class, show of hands, who thinks its a good and safe idea to run a fucking military blockade in support of said military's enemy?

So, Palestinian civilians in need of humanitarian aid are the "said military's enemy"? Well, haven't had it formulated that directly and honestly in a while.

I think it's a great idea. Indeed, I think that confronting violent governments is always a great idea. Unless you are a violent governmnet yourself - then you should just get reformed or disolved as quickly as possible by people running your blocades of humanitarian aid.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Jormungander wrote:The

Jormungander wrote:

The Israelis have only killed a few thousand Palestinians in the past few years. 6,348 in 10 years according to B'Tselem and UN OCHA. I am not advocating mass murder, but this isn't genocide. It just isn't.

Before I answer this, could you like read your first sentence again? Amazing.

If anyone killed 6,348 US citizens on US soil, their country (or an arbitrary country if there was no particular country responsible) would be vaporized, but somehow when it's Palestinians, 6k is just not impressive enough. And the stats - you sure it's not 6,349? Do you count people who die because of lack of vital medicine, clean water and electricity, like dialysis patients who die because their own piss enters their bloodstream? There are at least one or two of those as well, so maybe 6,350-6,351? How many Israeli civilians have been killed for the past 10 years? Dosens? More or less than the number of people who die from bee stings?

Killings are just a part of the ongoing grand scale ethnic clensing initiated decades ago. Both the strategy and tactics might not have the aim of eradicating every last Palestinian, but they certainly are genocidal - it is a controled exodus of a population by any means possible, including starvation, denial of basic necessities like medical assistance, food and water and direct lethal violence.

Jormungander wrote:

Is it good that 6,300+ Palestinians were killed by the Israelis in 10 years? No. Is that Israel's attempt at wiping out the Palestinians? Also no. There are millions of Palestinians. Averaging less than 1,000 killed a year is in no way a genocide. Denounce it as evil murder all you want. But let's all admit that this isn't genocide.

True - there are millions of palestinians, but only 1,5 million of them are in Palestine. The rest are fugitives in the region (mostly Jordan) and the wider world. I call the tactics genocidal - meaning that they involve various forms of war crimes commited against civilians on occupied soil. The same way serbian techniques of ethnic clensing of regions of Bosnia were genocidal.

Jormungander wrote:

I don't think that's how things were phrased. I think it was more along the lines of "you agree with me, or you contradict an authority figure." I think it looks like an appeal to authority.

Let's reimagine this quote of yours:

Quote:
Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians who dedicated their lives to work on the Israel-Palestina issue.

as something along the lines of:

Quote:
Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected christian theologians who dedicated their lives to work on the necessity of Christ's sacrifice for the salvation of mankind.

See the appeal to authority? If a theist went in here and posted that, we would rightfully announce that this is an appeal to authority.

No, actually I would ask him for the sources and references in these theologians' work to see the studies that the conclusions are based on. If he provided or referenced those, I would look them up and judge the sources individually and overall and get a better picture of the author's claims.

In the case of the theologians, there would be a lot they could document, but nothing on the necessity of sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the salvation of as much as a hamster. In case of Prof. Finkelstein, you can certainly do that. You can do the same with Dershowits' book - in fact there is a whole book dedicated to one of his books, namely one of Finkelstein's books.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

However, I am outraged to the point when I think that 'genocidal policy' is too mild a categorization

You think that Israel's policies are worse than genocidal policy? What does that even mean?

They contribute to destabilization of the whole region and are the source of so much cultural destruction and radicalization, that it boggles the mind. Frequent aggression and threats towards their neighbours saturate the region with fear and distrust, especially because the violence is used for almost anything. For example, Israel has more than once used the excuse of defense against Hezbolah to completely destroy competing industry in Lebanon - competition through destruction. They have a hammer, thus everything must be a nail. Genocidal policies against a localized population is one thing and is bad enough, conditioning a whole continent into destitution and violent reactionarism is quite another. The source of their power is based in the US, there is no doubt about that, but the Israeli complacency and direct involvement is no less damning for their government and military.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Unlike vague populistic bullshitters and servants of power pretending to be scholars, he is an actual historian and quite a principled one at that.

...

Do you have any idea of how huge support Finkelstein had and still has in the scholarly community and how isolated party-line "historians" are in general? You hear a lot from them, but there is a reason for that - they have access to powerful friends, namely government officials and that is easy reporting for an information outlet with zero interest in truth.

You need to refresh your information sources, 'cause the shit I think you listen to at the moment is the white noise of complacency with governmental violence.

This is officially tin foil hat territory. Basically: THE MAN is holding him down and making other historians act in bad faith when they claim he is inaccurate. That's the conspiracy theory that you are sticking with?

Oh, the conspiracy theory counter - that's nice. Can you document that the mainstream media, government and the intellectual circles do not have common interests and create common narratives? Because I can document the opposite, completely without resorting to questioning your mental faculties with tin foils and the rest.

If you think that the way media is organized and consolidated has no effect on anything but your mood at the moment you read a column or see a movie, your view on media is extremly simplistic and egocentric. Do you want to talk about this? Because it deserves a thread on it's own.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

So, the people who came in to deliver food, water and medicine to people captured in a huge concentration camp, get boarded by trained commandos. And they get shot for daring to resist people with guns. Does this sound about right?

I would disagree with 'concentration camp.' But yes, that's what happened. The boat was going to run the blockade, Israeli soldiers boarded it, the 'peace' activists on the boat went to town on the soldiers with clubs and knives, the soldiers fired on them. That's what happened.

Great.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Your only complaint is that they killed 15-19 civilians in an inconvinient place for you? They should have killed them in a better place?

Yes. The Israelis should not have done this out on international waters. That is entirely unjustified. But once that boat crossed in to Israeli waters after being warned to turn away, I would have supported the Israelis boarding or firing on it. 

My complaint is that they made a string of decisions that ended up killing civilians. One more complanit is that they prevent humanitarian aid from arriving to Gaza. And I have a few other complaints as well.

Jormungander wrote:

That makes no sense. I said 'better than." ''Then' is dealing with time. 'Than' is dealing with a comparison. And I was clearly meaning "let's be better than appeals to authority and whatnot" rather than meaning "let's be better than deprived children."

I am sorry - I meant to say this is what we should be "better than" - as in we should be better than allowing one of the worlds strongest military forces to molest a population of 1.5 million, half of which are children.

Jormungander wrote:

Call me all the names you want. I think that your writing was shit in your first post. You think I'm an imbecile. I can live with that.

I don't think you are an imbecile. Completely indifferent to the conditions and hardship of the Palestinian people - yes, but not an imbecile. I can like an imbecile.

Jormungander wrote:

And I'm against the blockade on humanitarian aid.

What? As if there is a position for and against. According to international law it is illegal and in case of occupation a war crime to block access to basic necessities for the civilian population for any reason. You don't get to choose here - being against it is mandatory, because people who do it commit an actual war crime.

Jormungander wrote:

The Israelis should do everything to keep weapons and materials to make weapons out of Palestinian hands.

You confuse Israelis and their government here. Israelis just supply meat and trigger fingers for the military, so they are not keeping anything from anyone. Their government does just enough to keep Israely casualties insignificant and avoid domestic revolt, while keeping just enough of a threat to maintain a healthy dose of fear and hate against the Palestinian population. Political dynamics are more complex than your meaningless statements about what the Israelis should do can account for. The man on the street has very little say in this. Their government doesn't give a shit about the safety of Israelis, as long as it isn't a political problem.

Jormungander wrote:

They should allow genuine aid in, though.

They should also stop cutting electricity, water, food and medicine supply to the population, but they don't. They should also stop bombing, arbitrary murder and assassinations, but they don't do that either.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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ZuS wrote:Jormungander

ZuS wrote:

Jormungander wrote:

The Israelis have only killed a few thousand Palestinians in the past few years. 6,348 in 10 years according to B'Tselem and UN OCHA. I am not advocating mass murder, but this isn't genocide. It just isn't.

Before I answer this, could you like read your first sentence again? Amazing.

If anyone killed 6,348 US citizens on US soil, their country (or an arbitrary country if there was no particular country responsible) would be vaporized, but somehow when it's Palestinians, 6k is just not impressive enough. And the stats - you sure it's not 6,349? Do you count people who die because of lack of vital medicine, clean water and electricity, like dialysis patients who die because their own piss enters their bloodstream? There are at least one or two of those as well, so maybe 6,350-6,351? How many Israeli civilians have been killed for the past 10 years? Dosens? More or less than the number of people who die from bee stings?

Killings are just a part of the ongoing grand scale ethnic clensing initiated decades ago. Both the strategy and tactics might not have the aim of eradicating every last Palestinian, but they certainly are genocidal - it is a controled exodus of a population by any means possible, including starvation, denial of basic necessities like medical assistance, food and water and direct lethal violence.

Jormungander wrote:

Is it good that 6,300+ Palestinians were killed by the Israelis in 10 years? No. Is that Israel's attempt at wiping out the Palestinians? Also no. There are millions of Palestinians. Averaging less than 1,000 killed a year is in no way a genocide. Denounce it as evil murder all you want. But let's all admit that this isn't genocide.

True - there are millions of palestinians, but only 1,5 million of them are in Palestine. The rest are fugitives in the region (mostly Jordan) and the wider world. I call the tactics genocidal - meaning that they involve various forms of war crimes commited against civilians on occupied soil. The same way serbian techniques of ethnic clensing of regions of Bosnia were genocidal.

Jormungander wrote:

I don't think that's how things were phrased. I think it was more along the lines of "you agree with me, or you contradict an authority figure." I think it looks like an appeal to authority.

Let's reimagine this quote of yours:

Quote:
Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected jewish historians who dedicated their lives to work on the Israel-Palestina issue.

as something along the lines of:

Quote:
Well, you would certainly disagree with some of the most widely accredited and respected christian theologians who dedicated their lives to work on the necessity of Christ's sacrifice for the salvation of mankind.

See the appeal to authority? If a theist went in here and posted that, we would rightfully announce that this is an appeal to authority.

No, actually I would ask him for the sources and references in these theologians' work to see the studies that the conclusions are based on. If he provided or referenced those, I would look them up and judge the sources individually and overall and get a better picture of the author's claims.

In the case of the theologians, there would be a lot they could document, but nothing on the necessity of sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the salvation of as much as a hamster. In case of Prof. Finkelstein, you can certainly do that. You can do the same with Dershowits' book - in fact there is a whole book dedicated to one of his books, namely one of Finkelstein's books.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

However, I am outraged to the point when I think that 'genocidal policy' is too mild a categorization

You think that Israel's policies are worse than genocidal policy? What does that even mean?

They contribute to destabilization of the whole region and are the source of so much cultural destruction and radicalization, that it boggles the mind. Frequent aggression and threats towards their neighbours saturate the region with fear and distrust, especially because the violence is used for almost anything. For example, Israel has more than once used the excuse of defense against Hezbolah to completely destroy competing industry in Lebanon - competition through destruction. They have a hammer, thus everything must be a nail. Genocidal policies against a localized population is one thing and is bad enough, conditioning a whole continent into destitution and violent reactionarism is quite another. The source of their power is based in the US, there is no doubt about that, but the Israeli complacency and direct involvement is no less damning for their government and military.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Unlike vague populistic bullshitters and servants of power pretending to be scholars, he is an actual historian and quite a principled one at that.

...

Do you have any idea of how huge support Finkelstein had and still has in the scholarly community and how isolated party-line "historians" are in general? You hear a lot from them, but there is a reason for that - they have access to powerful friends, namely government officials and that is easy reporting for an information outlet with zero interest in truth.

You need to refresh your information sources, 'cause the shit I think you listen to at the moment is the white noise of complacency with governmental violence.

This is officially tin foil hat territory. Basically: THE MAN is holding him down and making other historians act in bad faith when they claim he is inaccurate. That's the conspiracy theory that you are sticking with?

Oh, the conspiracy theory counter - that's nice. Can you document that the mainstream media, government and the intellectual circles do not have common interests and create common narratives? Because I can document the opposite, completely without resorting to questioning your mental faculties with tin foils and the rest.

If you think that the way media is organized and consolidated has no effect on anything but your mood at the moment you read a column or see a movie, your view on media is extremly simplistic and egocentric. Do you want to talk about this? Because it deserves a thread on it's own.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

So, the people who came in to deliver food, water and medicine to people captured in a huge concentration camp, get boarded by trained commandos. And they get shot for daring to resist people with guns. Does this sound about right?

I would disagree with 'concentration camp.' But yes, that's what happened. The boat was going to run the blockade, Israeli soldiers boarded it, the 'peace' activists on the boat went to town on the soldiers with clubs and knives, the soldiers fired on them. That's what happened.

Great.

Jormungander wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Your only complaint is that they killed 15-19 civilians in an inconvinient place for you? They should have killed them in a better place?

Yes. The Israelis should not have done this out on international waters. That is entirely unjustified. But once that boat crossed in to Israeli waters after being warned to turn away, I would have supported the Israelis boarding or firing on it. 

My complaint is that they made a string of decisions that ended up killing civilians. One more complanit is that they prevent humanitarian aid from arriving to Gaza. And I have a few other complaints as well.

Jormungander wrote:

That makes no sense. I said 'better than." ''Then' is dealing with time. 'Than' is dealing with a comparison. And I was clearly meaning "let's be better than appeals to authority and whatnot" rather than meaning "let's be better than deprived children."

I am sorry - I meant to say this is what we should be "better than" - as in we should be better than allowing one of the worlds strongest military forces to molest a population of 1.5 million, half of which are children.

Jormungander wrote:

Call me all the names you want. I think that your writing was shit in your first post. You think I'm an imbecile. I can live with that.

I don't think you are an imbecile. Completely indifferent to the conditions and hardship of the Palestinian people - yes, but not an imbecile. I can like an imbecile.

Jormungander wrote:

And I'm against the blockade on humanitarian aid.

What? As if there is a position for and against. According to international law it is illegal and in case of occupation a war crime to block access to basic necessities for the civilian population for any reason. You don't get to choose here - being against it is mandatory, because people who do it commit an actual war crime.

Jormungander wrote:

The Israelis should do everything to keep weapons and materials to make weapons out of Palestinian hands.

You confuse Israelis and their government here. Israelis just supply meat and trigger fingers for the military, so they are not keeping anything from anyone. Their government does just enough to keep Israely casualties insignificant and avoid domestic revolt, while keeping just enough of a threat to maintain a healthy dose of fear and hate against the Palestinian population. Political dynamics are more complex than your meaningless statements about what the Israelis should do can account for. The man on the street has very little say in this. Their government doesn't give a shit about the safety of Israelis, as long as it isn't a political problem.

Jormungander wrote:

They should allow genuine aid in, though.


They should also stop cutting electricity, water, food and medicine supply to the population, but they don't. They should also stop bombing, arbitrary murder and assassinations, but they don't do that either.

Is it possible for you to understand both sides of ANY GIVEN ISSUE without taking sides? If the dynamics are what you say, then you should also understand the knee jerk reaction of Isreal, without justifying it. Understanding why something happens is not the same as condoning it.

For example. If you have kids and no money, and get tunnel vision, you might shoplift to feed your kids. I think there is a lack of introspection on both sides in this issue in failing to understand that both are contributing to this bullshit conflict. Children on both sides get feed bullshit by the society they live in and grow up with the indoctrination that the other is the enemy. And what does that lead to, another generation of death and destruction.

I understand WHY Palestinians cling to those who protect them, while I do not condone the acts of suicide bombers. I understand what goes into the tunnel vision that leads them to their desperate actions. Conversely I also understand that there is a political climate of "enough is enough" in Israel that leads them to their tunnel vision as well. I think someone else here said it best in this thread. There is enough paranoia on both sides that continues to perpetuate the bat shit insane actions of BOTH SIDES.

The problem to me is simple. Once you see your fellow human as being outside your species it is easy to kill them. I think both sides are guilty of this.

But I am not going to blindly back Palestine just because their people suffer. I think if they want the peace they say they want, then they DO need to turn on the violent nuts amongst them. As long as they see violence as a political tactic, Israel will continue to use the equally bat shit insane tactic of swatting a fly with a sledge hammer.

"You started it" Is childish finger pointing and the death wont stop if both sides continue to point fingers.

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Bottom line for me is that I

Bottom line for me is that I am sick of both sides. They act like a married couple who beat the shit out of each other and then when the cops show up point the finger at the other. I wish we could send that entire region to another planet so that the rest of the world could live in peace without their tribal bullshit.

Palestine has my sympathy that they should have the basics. But I do not condone violence as a political tactic. Israel has my sympathy in that they don't want violence to affect them. But they do not have my sympathy in carpet bombing a poor population with no resources.

I am at my wits end with both sides. Maybe we need to put a nuke at the Waling Wall and Dome of the Rock and say, "Ok motherfuckers, next one, who acts out, EITHER SIDE, both of you are going to get it".

What do parents who have two kids do when they don't share the toys? They send them to separate rooms and take the toys away. I am sick of the childish tribal bullshit from BOTH SIDES. Neither side is doing humanity any favors by continuing this crap.

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Brian37 wrote:I am at my

Brian37 wrote:

I am at my wits end with both sides. Maybe we need to put a nuke at the Waling Wall and Dome of the Rock and say, "Ok motherfuckers, next one, who acts out, EITHER SIDE, both of you are going to get it".

Thank you for the analysis of the problem and a suggestion for a solution. One can see that you have intensly studied the main aspects of the situation. It is evident that you are at your wits end - well, at least that the problem was allocated to some fringe corner of you wits.

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"I'm Jewish" so the fuck

"I'm Jewish" so the fuck what?

"I'm Muslim" so the fuck what?

"I am atheist" so the fuck what?

"I am Christian" so the fuck what?

If humanity would focus on reaching old age instead of labels and boarders we'd all be better off. Clubs and labels and religion and borders will exist. I accept that. But our priorities as a species are so stuck in a tribal past that we cannot collectively see what is obvious. We all have one life. We all have one planet. We haven't accepted the fragile nature of life and still see ourselves as narcissistic and "special". Humans are as common as taking a dump and no one is special. I am not special either.

If all humans were forced to drive a car with a nuke on the front bumper with a hair trigger button, we'd all drive carefully. But we let ideas and worship and power distract us, as a species from the fact that we are the same species.

If you killed my family member I'd be pissed and most people, when this happens to them, wont give a shit why you did it, they will just use it as an excuse to "protect themselves" or "get even". This is mundane human behavior and happens, and has happened, throughout our species history.

Our species needs to mature to accept labels and clubs and borders WITHOUT making them the priority. We are all capable of the same range of human emotions and actions, both good and bad, and must accept that we are all the same.

What kills me is that you COULD conduct an experiment with a Israeli toddler and a Palestinian toddler. You could put them in a room and because they are too young to understand adult beefs, would play with each other. Adults fuck children up and create future generations of enemies because they cant understand that they are not special. If a Palestinian can understand what it is like to lose a loved one, then they should accept that a Jew is no different. And the same goes for Isrealis. If you can understand what it is like to lose a loved one, then you should be able to understand what it is like for a Palestinian.

FUCK YOUR DAMNED LABELS AND BORDERS AND STOP KILLING EACH OTHER!

 

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ZuS wrote:Brian37 wrote:I am

ZuS wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I am at my wits end with both sides. Maybe we need to put a nuke at the Waling Wall and Dome of the Rock and say, "Ok motherfuckers, next one, who acts out, EITHER SIDE, both of you are going to get it".

Thank you for the analysis of the problem and a suggestion for a solution. One can see that you have intensly studied the main aspects of the situation. It is evident that you are at your wits end - well, at least that the problem was allocated to some fringe corner of you wits.

Oh god, or Thor , it is called metaphor.

This conflict has been going on for centuries so it is WAY PAST the "you started it" crap. What should matter is that it stops. I see neither side wanting it to stop. I see both sides acting like the alpha male insisting they are entitled to the driver's seat by any means, yet too fucking stupid to see that a dead human is a dead human and when you kill a human you affect those who loved that human.

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What is your solution, ZuS?

ZuS wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I am at my wits end with both sides. Maybe we need to put a nuke at the Waling Wall and Dome of the Rock and say, "Ok motherfuckers, next one, who acts out, EITHER SIDE, both of you are going to get it".

Thank you for the analysis of the problem and a suggestion for a solution. One can see that you have intensly studied the main aspects of the situation. It is evident that you are at your wits end - well, at least that the problem was allocated to some fringe corner of you wits.

 

Both sides seem to have historical claims and they are intractable foes. Sharing, even becoming a single nation, which would be my hope, is so unrealistic as to be laughable. Given the emnity, what can other nations do? And with what goals in mind?  Force them to share equally on pain of death? You know that's what would be required.

Who should be responsible for this? The Romans/italians for their part in the diaspora in Judea? The Turks, the British, the French? Nazi Germany for stoking Zionism? Israel for casting out citizens of the lands it seized? The UN? America for its long term support of the Jewish state? Germany for given Israel half a billion dollars in arms in the 1950s and 1960s? The arab world for ignoring the plight of palestinians, for refusing them citizenship? For constantly threatening Israel and maintaining a state of tension? Jewish fundamentalists for brazenly stealing land? Every one of the above and more?

Brian's frustration is more than understandable and if you have a solution, ZuS, the world is breathlessly waiting to hear it. Personally, I am sick to death of the middle east and everything in it.

 

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This is the way I see it.

This is the way I see it. Palestine IS still living in a pre-enlightenment past and still the juvenile yet to catch up with the west. Yet the so called westernized "adults" are trying to beat the child into submission. If it hasn't worked in the past, what makes them think it will continue to work? And the same with the suicide bombers. If it didn't work in the past, what makes anyone think repeating the same failed behavior will work again?

WW2 was horrible and what happened to 6 million Jews should never be forgotten, much less repeated.

But someone should have, when the war ended and it was suggested, that the Jews get a plot of land, someone should have pointed out to them, "Yea, it sucked that you suffered, but I don't think moving into a crack infested neighborhood is a good idea".

It may be wrong for someone to rob me. But it would be stupid for me to deliberately walk into a bad neighborhood in the middle of the night with a tuxedo on and wads of cash hanging out of my pocket.

AND to say this has nothing to do with religion is bullshit. Christians backed this move because of what Revelations says in that Israel will become a nation. By putting the Jews there they were conducting self fulfilling prophecy.

BUT here is where, if I were Jewish, I'd be pissed. Christians aren't supporting them because they believe Jews will end up in heaven with them. The Jews in the Christian bible are used as a stepping stone, and only the Uncle Toms "MIGHT" make it in. The Christian bible makes it clear, like all tribal childish myths, that if you don't suck up to their hero, you wont get into the club.

Jews might as well be the limo driver who pulls up to the club and is told to wait in the limo. If I were Jewish the last place I would live would be Israel. Why the fuck would I want to usher in "the end" so that I could be told I'm not going to make it past the velvet ropes?

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Brian37 wrote:Is it possible

Brian37 wrote:

Is it possible for you to understand both sides of ANY GIVEN ISSUE without taking sides? If the dynamics are what you say, then you should also understand the knee jerk reaction of Isreal, without justifying it. Understanding why something happens is not the same as condoning it.

I understand why they do what they do - because they can. Why can they? Because we provide them with weapons, including planes and the choppers. If they didn't have the most powerful military in the Middle East,

they would think twice about every move they make - you know, like any normal country does.

Why we supply them with weapons is a different question, but a valid one - 6 billion dollars of weaponry as a birthday gift every year has a reason and that reason is not knee-yerk anything, but a long term interest.

Brian37 wrote:

For example. If you have kids and no money, and get tunnel vision, you might shoplift to feed your kids. I think there is a lack of introspection on both sides in this issue in failing to understand that both are contributing to this bullshit conflict. Children on both sides get feed bullshit by the society they live in and grow up with the indoctrination that the other is the enemy. And what does that lead to, another generation of death and destruction.

Sometimes it is hard to have patience with people who see similarities between an expansionist government live nuclear threat armed to the teeth and engaging in radically violent policies for over 60 years and a parent who compulsively comits petty theft to feed his children, but I will try.

Governments have only one type of short-sightedness and it is connected to the degree of democracy in the electorate. Most governments have to put up a show once every four years, but the essential policy is never up for vote - it is decided behind closed doors. When you evaluate whether soe action is compulsive or modus operandi, your first clue is whether the problem the reaction tries to adress is essential for the policy of the country. If it is, chances that it is a knee-yerk reaction decrease significantly. Some part of the tactics might be a mistake or poorly executed, but the strategy is likely to be long term and with very precise goals in mind.

Your second clue should be whether they have done things like this before and here there is no mistake: humanitarian aid to the Palestinian region has been blocked, shot at, boarded, assaulted and torpedoed boat-to-boat repeatedly for years - even a boat with Desmond Tutu on board was threatened with ramming and live ammunition.

This is clearly an M.O., casulties were just a matter of time. They will continue same procedure and there will be more dead - this is without any question.

Brian37 wrote:

I understand WHY Palestinians cling to those who protect them, while I do not condone the acts of suicide bombers. I understand what goes into the tunnel vision that leads them to their desperate actions.

Most suicide bombers today try to secure livelihoods for their families by selling their services - it is a business like any other and it is only able to exist because of the conditions they live in. Most Israeli soldiers do the same, only their chances of survival of their services are infinitely higher. I am not talking about these people - they do not have knee-yerk reactions that bomb Lebanon industrial centres for 40 days straight or kill 1300 Palestinians in 2 weeks - they just follow orders. In fact NO ONE has those knee-yerk reactions, because they aren't kne-yerk at all. They are just a part of getting things done, a modus operandi made possible by our weapon supply.

Brian37 wrote:

Conversely I also understand that there is a political climate of "enough is enough" in Israel that leads them to their tunnel vision as well.

Enough has been enough down there from the begining - it's a strategy, not a reaction to some new situation. The only tunnel vision you can talk about is the fact that they do not have to consider alternatives - they have more ready firepower than Nato.

Brian37 wrote:

I think someone else here said it best in this thread. There is enough paranoia on both sides that continues to perpetuate the bat shit insane actions of BOTH SIDES.

No, those are very rational actions - they want the land and they are taking it, any way they see fit, because they can. What is insane about that? I just want to stop them, because that is the right thing to do. You see, rational and right are diametrically opposite routes to take very, very, very often.

Brian37 wrote:

The problem to me is simple. Once you see your fellow human as being outside your species it is easy to kill them. I think both sides are guilty of this.

But I am not going to blindly back Palestine just because their people suffer. I think if they want the peace they say they want, then they DO need to turn on the violent nuts amongst them. As long as they see violence as a political tactic, Israel will continue to use the equally bat shit insane tactic of swatting a fly with a sledge hammer.

"You started it" Is childish finger pointing and the death wont stop if both sides continue to point fingers.

Again, you are missing the big picture. Since this is an M.O., it is not a localised incident. The problem is not friction between Palestinians and Israeli government, this is just a symptom. The problem is the military and economical power of the United States determined to decide the fate of the Middle East and the rest of the world unilaterally and by force, using any means it has on it's disposal.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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The "I condemn both sides"

The "I condemn both sides" position seems more fair and reasonable when you fail to consider that one of those sides has been actively blocking the consensus solution for decades and illegally building infrastructure on the land that would make up the second state in a two-state solution. At least you won't be called an anti-semite.

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Quote:Most suicide bombers

Quote:
Most suicide bombers today try to secure livelihoods for their families by selling their services - it is a business like any other and it is only able to exist because of the conditions they live in.

Ok, then why do the family and friends invoke Allah if it is strictly business?

All the more reason to expose religion as the power scam it is. If they didn't believe in Allah they wouldn't be blowing themselves up.

And if Jews didn't believe that Yahweh gave them the land because they were the "chosen people", they wouldn't have tried to move back there in the first place.

RELIGION is part of it, and there is no way around it.

Ideology, politics and religion allow humans to become inhuman to each other.

Again, to see the absurdity of adult human behavior all one has to do to see how adults fuck life up is to put kids in the same room who don't have knowledge of adult beefs. Hate is taught. Labels are taught. Politics are taught. But we were all kids at one point.

This "business" wouldn't exist if superstition weren't used to make sheep of others.

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Gauche wrote:The "I condemn

Gauche wrote:

The "I condemn both sides" position seems more fair and reasonable when you fail to consider that one of those sides has been actively blocking the consensus solution for decades and illegally building infrastructure on the land that would make up the second state in a two-state solution.

Exactly. It's a modus operandi, not some fluke incident  connected to nothing in particular. Just like me coming to work is not one in a series of independent reactions to me wanting to earn money once a day - it is what I do - a calculated operation with a long term purpose based on an interest. I have an education - I use it unconditionally. Israel and US have weapons - they use them unconditionally.

Whatever else you may have heard about WMDs and bringing democracy to the Middle East, or the "terrorist threat" is a very pretty story and nothing more.

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Gauche wrote:The "I condemn

Gauche wrote:

The "I condemn both sides" position seems more fair and reasonable when you fail to consider that one of those sides has been actively blocking the consensus solution for decades and illegally building infrastructure on the land that would make up the second state in a two-state solution. At least you won't be called an anti-semite.

FUCK the "two state solution". If I can live with Christian neighbors, and Mexican neighors LITERALLY next door to me without killing them because I might not like some of what they do or say, then both Jews and Muslims need to fuck the idea that borders are needed. All that either side should care about is stopping the violence.

Get the damned Crescent moon of your flag. Get the damned Star of David off your flag, and accept that a human is a human and if your neighbor is different than you so the fuck what.

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OK, so apart from the most

OK, so apart from the most recent battle, Israel has been trying to starve the people of Gaza into submission for a decade. Got that much. Now there is a problem which I see here. Gaza has a border with Egypt. Egypt doesn't much like Israel and the relationship which they do have is based on the fact that Israel has kicked some Egyptian ass a couple of times.

 

So how is it that Israel can get away with the blockade? Simple, Egypt is fully complicit. In fact, they are trying to build an underground wall to prevent smugglers from tunneling in past their military.

 

Which brings up the question of why nobody is talking about what Egypt is doing? Really, they have the ability to make what Israel is doing fully pointless. All they have to do is let food and medicine in from their side and what Israel is doing becomes a spectacular fail. Possibly, the Egyptians have considered the situation and concluded that it is their interest to maintain the uneasy stability on their border?

 

Still, if Israel is to be condemned then Egypt is in the same boat. It has to be both of them or neither of them.

 

As far as the conflict from a few days ago, well, doomy seems to have hit this one square on. A bunch of hippie do gooders tried to run a naval blockade that they were not equipped to deal with. When the ship was boarded, they decided to try to repel the boarding party with sections of pipe. Yes, a very effective weapon against an enemy armed with Uzis. Or not.

 

And why did they have cameras there to document the event? Simple. They felt that they could get PR value from the event. Basically, we are looking at a case of “mommy, the bad men came with their guns and shot at us when we were trying to be nice to people!”. Sorry but that is just crass manipulate the media and by extension garner some sympathy. Remember, these are people who attacked armed soldiers with bit of pipe and knives. They are not innocent here, they are really fucking stupid. They do not deserve any sympathy.

 

Which is not to say that I condone what Israel is doing. In fact, the opposite. However, I also do not condone what the hippies are trying to do either.

 

So what is the solution? Well for starters, the hippies can stop trying to involve themselves in what is not their concern. After that, I suspect that a bilateral cease fire would at least quiet things down a bit.

 

If Hamas wants to not get their asses kicked and their people starved, perhaps they could try actually honoring the cease fire seriously. If Israel wants the cease fire to last long term, perhaps they could stop trying to build new towns in Gaza.

 

Either that or the leaders of both sides should be locked in a room together to see who can go the longest without bathing.

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Brian37 wrote:FUCK the "two

Brian37 wrote:

FUCK the "two state solution". If I can live with Christian neighbors, and Mexican neighors LITERALLY next door to me without killing them because I might not like some of what they do or say, then both Jews and Muslims need to fuck the idea that borders are needed. All that either side should care about is stopping the violence.

See, that is a problem for Israel. If they just accept Palestinians as a minority, Palestinians will be a majority in no time - they simply breed like rabbits and their numbers accelerate the more empoverished and base their environment is. This would be no problem, if Israel was a state like any other - but it's not. Israel can resist the natural course of things because it has big guns.

Brian37 wrote:

Get the damned Crescent moon of your flag. Get the damned Star of David off your flag, and accept that a human is a human and if your neighbor is different than you so the fuck what.

Yep, this would be quite acceptable, if Israel was a normal state. But Israel is not a normal state - it has the most powerful military backing it. So why should they sattle for anything less than total dominion? If they are going to play the role of a forward US base in the Middle East, they are going to be well rewarded for it. They will destroy competition and take as much territory as they see fit, while US nods - that's the deal.

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Quote:No, those are very

Quote:
No, those are very rational action

Don't mistake understanding of human behavior as being the same as being rational. Just because you can do something doesn't make it rational. I can smoke, to state that is rational, but to say smoking is rational when it causes cancer is absurd. It is only rational to say "people do this".

We look back at the "settlers" who could and did INVADE North America and took the land from the natives by force. It is only rational in the sense of saying "humans are capable of doing this". It is irrational in the sense for what you stated in why you want the Jewish settlements to stop. Because it doesn't take human empathy into account anymore than the Europeans understood the harm they were causing Native Americans.

SKIP THE DAMNED LABELS

Jews want land for the same reason I want food, humans want resources. But in that they irrationally ignore the harm they do to others in seeking out those resources. PALESTINIANS are committing the same irrational fallacy in their rightful desire to protect their own resources. NEITHER is side is willing to put themselves in the others shoes or consider the harm they do to the other, or themselves by reacting the way they do. They BOTH fail to see that their reactions are caused by confusing labels as being important.

What causes this IN ALL HUMANS throughout our  species history is the irrational placement of label being the most important issue, when the human condition should be. BOTH sides do not understand that they suffer from the same mundane human behavior in mistaking the "tribe" being important when BOTH sides seek the same thing, resources.

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ZuS wrote:Brian37 wrote:FUCK

ZuS wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

FUCK the "two state solution". If I can live with Christian neighbors, and Mexican neighors LITERALLY next door to me without killing them because I might not like some of what they do or say, then both Jews and Muslims need to fuck the idea that borders are needed. All that either side should care about is stopping the violence.

See, that is a problem for Israel. If they just accept Palestinians as a minority, Palestinians will be a majority in no time - they simply breed like rabbits and their numbers accelerate the more empoverished and base their environment is. This would be no problem, if Israel was a state like any other - but it's not. Israel can resist the natural course of things because it has big guns.

Brian37 wrote:

Get the damned Crescent moon of your flag. Get the damned Star of David off your flag, and accept that a human is a human and if your neighbor is different than you so the fuck what.

Yep, this would be quite acceptable, if Israel was a normal state. But Israel is not a normal state - it has the most powerful military backing it. So why should they sattle for anything less than total dominion? If they are going to play the role of a forward US base in the Middle East, they are going to be well rewarded for it. They will destroy competition and take as much territory as they see fit, while US nods - that's the deal.

Right, but why you rail against anyone who shows the slightest bit of support for another human who might live there  OR in Palestine for that matter proves my point. BOTH sides want to make it out to be either or and the only thing I see from both sides which both seem to fail to is that death is death and you kill and they kill and abuse begets abuse and the cycle continues.

I would suggest that if you want to get the "bully" Israel to stop, maybe a Martin Luther King or Gandhi approach might work. If that is the way you want to view Israel. But don't think that because I don't call them bullies myself means I support their bullshit carpet bombing. I think they are being just as stupid.

I am simply saying if you always put into something that has failed time after time after time, why the fuck to you continue to repeat the same behavior? I would say the same to Israel too.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians, for the reason you stated "outgunned by Israel" then Palestine isn't really in a position to continue to use violence. If they view Israel as the "bully" maybe they'd get more sympathy from the world if they weren't acting out in violence.

I do have sympathy for them, but it stops when they blow up unarmed people. I do have sympathy for Israeli citizens(not so much the government, just laymen) but it stops when their government uses overkill to try to stop violent Palestinians.

Again, there is blame to be had on both sides and it is not a matter of "us vs them".

As it stands now the advise I would give Palestinians is to knock off the violence. I really do think if they do that long term things will change. I promise in that I do not blindly support all tactics used by Israel. I don't and I am just as pissed at them as I am with violent Palestinians.

 

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Brian37 wrote:FUCK the "two

Brian37 wrote:
FUCK the "two state solution". If I can live with Christian neighbors, and Mexican neighors LITERALLY next door to me without killing them because I might not like some of what they do or say, then both Jews and Muslims need to fuck the idea that borders are needed. All that either side should care about is stopping the violence.

Get the damned Crescent moon of your flag. Get the damned Star of David off your flag, and accept that a human is a human and if your neighbor is different than you so the fuck what.

People should live together peacefully without quarreling over petty differences or what they perceive to be past injustices in my opinion. That would be good. The fact remains, resistance to the consensus solution has come largely from one side and it's a delusional attempt to appear unprejudiced to ignore that.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


ZuS
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Brian37 wrote:Quote:No,

Brian37 wrote:

Quote:
No, those are very rational action

Don't mistake understanding of human behavior as being the same as being rational. Just because you can do something doesn't make it rational. I can smoke, to state that is rational, but to say smoking is rational when it causes cancer is absurd. It is only rational to say "people do this".

We look back at the "settlers" who could and did INVADE North America and took the land from the natives by force. It is only rational in the sense of saying "humans are capable of doing this". It is irrational in the sense for what you stated in why you want the Jewish settlements to stop. Because it doesn't take human empathy into account anymore than the Europeans understood the harm they were causing Native Americans.

Ok, so I would consider occupation of North America as a perfectly rational undertaking with a start point, modus operandi and a mission accomplished if you will. We wanted the land, they were on it. We could remove them, so we did. We knew they had feelings and we hurt them, but we also knew that that would last only as long as they live - so we killed them. Today the white man is "native" to the North America and assumes everything in North America as his property. Same is the case with the rest of the world - we own it the minute we have military and/or economic might sufficient to subdue whoever happens to live on our land, wherever that land happens to be.

I don't understand what is so irational about taking resources. That is the most profitable business, bar none.

Brian37 wrote:

Jews want land for the same reason I want food, humans want resources. But in that they irrationally ignore the harm they do to others in seeking out those resources. PALESTINIANS are committing the same irrational fallacy in their rightful desire to protect their own resources. NEITHER is side is willing to put themselves in the others shoes or consider the harm they do to the other, or themselves by reacting the way they do. They BOTH fail to see that their reactions are caused by confusing labels as being important.

Why should Israeli government put themselves in Palestinian shoes? No reason. They have no intention of ruling over a group of people who would have allegiance to anyone but the Israeli rulers. For them to accept one state solution they would either have to be crazy, or find a way to effectively enslave and surpress the entire Palestinian population - sort of the way US has supressed minorities through the prison system and second class citizen status on almost all levels.

Brian37 wrote:

What causes this IN ALL HUMANS throughout our  species history is the irrational placement of label being the most important issue, when the human condition should be. BOTH sides do not understand that they suffer from the same mundane human behavior in mistaking the "tribe" being important when BOTH sides seek the same thing, resources.

They don't give a shit about the tribe. Bush never gave a flying fuck about any one American he sent to death. All they want is obedience, one way or the other. And it just so happens that Israeli government can make Israeli people into a nation of soldiers that will shoot almost anyone, but they can't make a Palestinian do anything other than die. So what the fuck are they going to use Palestinians for? A disciplin tool for their own people and an excuse to bomb Lebanese industry to dust once in a while - for security reasons, of course. But never as a part of the Israeli nation - they would have to be completely out of their mind to do that. Either out of their mind or WITHOUT the weapons supplied by the US. The moment those shipments are cut, Israel becomes a valuable neighbor and a great friend of everyone in the region - they wouldn't have a choice.

I don't understand why you can't put yourself in the shoes of the "deciders". They treat nations the way you treat used cars, buddy.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Quote:They will destroy

Quote:
They will destroy competition and take as much territory as they see fit, while US nods - that's the deal.

And the western world is getting wise to this, slowly. But any sympathy, like I said, that someone might have, flies out the window when you act out in violence.

I am an American. I am living proof that Israel doesn't deserve blind loyalty. But I also don't think Palestine deserves it either.

What good are labels or boarders after death? So why should they matter while one is alive? I only have one life and so do all humans. I think humans spend to much time ignoring that old age is our common goal.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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The Israelis don't want to

The Israelis don't want to integrate with a hostile population with fertility rates more than double replacement levels, and they don't have to accept any other resolution partly because of this idiotic "well, both sides are bad" rhetoric.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft