Israel FINALLY gets treated the way it deserves to be.

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Israel FINALLY gets treated the way it deserves to be.

Americans: Fuck your nukes. No more hypocrisy. (Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none).

Greece has withdrawn from joint military exercises with Israel in protest at the attack on the Gaza flotilla. Athens has also barred the head of the Israeli airforce from flying to Greece.

French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner says he is "deeply shocked" by the Israeli action and calls for an inquiry

Turkish foreign ministry warns Israel of irreparable damage to bilateral ties. "This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations," a statement read.

Sweden summons the Israeli ambassador to Stockholm over the "unacceptable" action

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"Political power rolls out of the barrel of a gun" -Mao

ZuS wrote:

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns? Shit, I am glad there aren't many people like you around.

The activists knew what they were up against - remember that IDF sank several ships before. The activists just have a few kg heavier balls than you and more than a trace of moral principle. Even getting killed gets their message accross and dieing for a good cause obviously isn't a thing of the past - I applaud their resolve.

If you say so...

The 21st/20th Gregorian Century, more so than any other spanse of time, shows that "might makes right".

So while "Activists" (stupid "hippies" as TDS so astutely worded it) are being turned into swiss cheese, the wiser folk know to keep their mouths shut and let ruthless animals be ruthless animals- and are still alive to actually talk about it!

Y'know... like you and I are.

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


ZuS
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Kapkao wrote:If you say

Kapkao wrote:

If you say so...

The 21st/20th Gregorian Century, more so than any other spanse of time, shows that "might makes right".

So while "Activists" (stupid "hippies" as TDS so astutely worded it) are being turned into swiss cheese,

There is another "might" that can "make right", as is widely recognized by the powerful fiew in any society - the might of the organized population - the third global power. This is the type of might the activists that died on that boat were fighting to gather and direct.

Kapkao wrote:

the wiser folk know to keep their mouths shut and let ruthless animals be ruthless animals- and are still alive to actually talk about it!

If you can call that "alive", I guess you can somehow stretch the "wize" over it, like a body bag over a stinking corpse.

Kapkao wrote:

Y'know... like you and I are.

Speak for yourself. For me the crawling stench in this plastic is slowly becoming unbearable.

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ZuS wrote:Would you tell

ZuS wrote:

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns? Shit, I am glad there aren't many people like you around.

Well would any non retard bring food to the jews in the concentration camp when they knew they would be caught? It may be the right thing to do but they would still be retards for doing it. I wouldn't tell them to do any clensing but I would expect that is what would happen. And so should the people bringing the food.

 

anyone know knowingly does something which they know is likely to get them "clensed" for no real gain is a retard. And I don't feel sorry for them, they made a choice to put themselves in that situation.

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Tapey wrote:ZuS

Tapey wrote:

ZuS wrote:

 

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns? Shit, I am glad there aren't many people like you around.

Well would any non retard bring food to the jews in the concentration camp when they knew they would be caught? It may be the right thing to do but they would still be retards for doing it. I wouldn't tell them to do any clensing but I would expect that is what would happen.

How do you think you got guarantied pensions in your country? How do you think children got a right to go to school, instead of working their asses off in some factory from the age of 6? How do you think workplace regulation protecting lives and health came about? How do you think any minimal security for the mass of population, from the seatbelts in the cars to healthcare, came into existence? They weren't given away by friendly and service-minded corporations and governments - never. They were won through sweat and blood of people like those that took to the ships and sailed unarmed against one of the most powerful military forces on earth.

How does anything good happen in this world? Only two ways: sheer chance or dilligent work and sacrifice of people organizing bottom-up. You can sit back and call them morons, but you quickly forget where your life the way you know it came from. You think you can relax now - no more fights to be fought? After all the the blood of the protesters has dried on the streets and you can have a job where you aren't driven like an animal. Don't kid yourself - maybe not you, but your children will wake up to a less fortunate future because of your inaction, while you are guarantied to live with no control of your life, no knowledge of what you can do, afraid of moving left or right, afraid to connect to your community and nation, not engaging the courts, not claiming your rights - basically less than alive.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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ZuS wrote:Tapey wrote:ZuS

ZuS wrote:

Tapey wrote:

ZuS wrote:

 

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns? Shit, I am glad there aren't many people like you around.

Well would any non retard bring food to the jews in the concentration camp when they knew they would be caught? It may be the right thing to do but they would still be retards for doing it. I wouldn't tell them to do any clensing but I would expect that is what would happen.

How do you think you got guarantied pensions in your country? How do you think children got a right to go to school, instead of working their asses off in some factory from the age of 6? How do you think workplace regulation protecting lives and health came about? How do you think any minimal security for the mass of population, from the seatbelts in the cars to healthcare, came into existence? They weren't given away by friendly and service-minded corporations and governments - never. They were won through sweat and blood of people like those that took to the ships and sailed unarmed against one of the most powerful military forces on earth.

How does anything good happen in this world? Only two ways: sheer chance or dilligent work and sacrifice of people organizing bottom-up. You can sit back and call them morons, but you quickly forget where your life the way you know it came from. You think you can relax now - no more fights to be fought? After all the the blood of the protesters has dried on the streets and you can have a job where you aren't driven like an animal. Don't kid yourself - maybe not you, but your children will wake up to a less fortunate future because of your inaction, while you are guarantied to live with no control of your life, no knowledge of what you can do, afraid of moving left or right, afraid to connect to your community and nation, not engaging the courts, not claiming your rights - basically less than alive.

and this is my point... actions must have an aim in mind there must be reward.  There is no reward for there actions they are just getting themselves killed, there current tactic isn't working and they continue to persist with it. they are retards. Try something new. Every sucssessful  movement changed there approach when there current one failed, if they didn't it wouldn't of worked. Don't get me wrong Israel are probably more retarded... do they really think doing things this way will last forever? They are in a very hostile place with very few friends who actually would help.

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Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


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Tapey wrote:and this is my

Tapey wrote:

and this is my point... actions must have an aim in mind there must be reward.  There is no reward for there actions they are just getting themselves killed, there current tactic isn't working and they continue to persist with it. they are retards. Try something new. Every sucssessful  movement changed there approach when there current one failed, if they didn't it wouldn't of worked. Don't get me wrong Israel are probably more retarded... do they really think doing things this way will last forever? They are in a very hostile place with very few friends who actually would help.

If you need evidence for the fact that their strategy works, you need to look no further than the bottom-up organizing accross the world that brought down the apartheid regime in South Africa. This morning governments accross the world woke up to protests of their populations. Here in Denmark, the most pro-Israeli country outside of US, Israeli Embassy woke up to hundreds of protesters surrounding it. Organizers accross the country are gathering resources for the next push, reenvigorated by the support coming from all over the world. But you don't know this, because the revolution will not be televised.

Take a moment to name one good thing in your society that isn't connected to common organizers - you won't find it. I know your education is insufficient to teach you this and I can hear in your post that you don't know this side of history, but if you are interested, read People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. Although Zinn targets the history-deprived US population, the same is valid for the rest of the world. At times it seemed that the organizers were going for the moon in frisbees, until the tide turned. Organized population is stronger than any government, any military - remember, military and police consist of our sons, brothers, fathers, mothers, daughters and sisters.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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ZuS wrote:Would you tell

ZuS wrote:

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns?

 

If their plan was to smash a flatbed truck full of food through the front gate, through barricades and armed guards... yes. I would indeed ask the Nazis to purge anyone with intelligence that low. It doesnt help the prisoners, needlessly angers people with guns, risks your life without purpose, and STILL doesnt complete the damn objective >.<

 

ZuS wrote:

The activists knew what they were up against - remember that IDF sank several ships before. The activists just have a few kg heavier balls than you and more than a trace of moral principle. Even getting killed gets their message accross and dieing for a good cause obviously isn't a thing of the past - I applaud their resolve.

... These "activists" have done nothing but escalate an endless war, they knew what they were up against, they knew what would happen, and they still did it! They didnt help the Gaza citizens, all the did was make alot of countries mad at each other. Which is becoming ever more obvious as their main goal, all along.

So if becoming a martyr to invoke Turkey, Egypt, and Palastine into ANOTHER war with Israel, is good morals...

At least im open and honest about those i want dead, and the countries i want to burn... unlike some people >.>

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Kapkao wrote:More like...

Kapkao wrote:

More like... "Where did I put my whimpering idealistic pseudo-revolutionary hypocrite repellent?" 

As i said... Hippie

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Kapkao wrote:Where did I put

Kapkao wrote:

Where did I put my hippie-repellent... FUCK THAT. More like... "Where did I put my whimpering idealistic pseudo-revolutionary hypocrite repellent?"

 

oh, fuck you, kapkao!  i'm callin' your whole goddamn deck, you motherfucker!  i don't know where you keep getting this fucking bullshit idea that i'm an "idealist."  what the fuck was "idealistic" or "revolutionary" about "better dhimmi than dead?"  when the fuck have i ever talked ideals with you?  or for that matter, anyone else on this board at any recent time?  you're the one who apparently has some kind of a fuckin' problem with people being "dhimmi"--at least enough of a problem to ridicule it.  well, guess what?  we're all fuckin' "dhimmi" to someone.  i won't necessarily say it's always better being alive than dead, but at least 90% of the time it is.  the only time you'd ever see me be a real, life-risking "revolutionary" is when i could be convinced that a large enough majority of the human race had pulled their heads out of their asses to shoot down the minority who hadn't like mangy dogs, and i got enough sense to know that ain't ever gonna happen.  ever.  maybe some poor, brave motherfucker (far braver than you or i or any other shit-eater on these boards) in the pissing rain in seville in 1937 could make himself believe it could, but here in the 21st godshittin' century i got enough hindsight to know it can't.

how's that for ideals, you batshit crazy sonofabitch?  now take your goddamn unfunny cat posters and shove 'em up your ass.

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I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
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ZuS wrote:Tapey wrote:and

ZuS wrote:

Tapey wrote:

and this is my point... actions must have an aim in mind there must be reward.  There is no reward for there actions they are just getting themselves killed, there current tactic isn't working and they continue to persist with it. they are retards. Try something new. Every sucssessful  movement changed there approach when there current one failed, if they didn't it wouldn't of worked. Don't get me wrong Israel are probably more retarded... do they really think doing things this way will last forever? They are in a very hostile place with very few friends who actually would help.

If you need evidence for the fact that their strategy works, you need to look no further than the bottom-up organizing accross the world that brought down the apartheid regime in South Africa. This morning governments accross the world woke up to protests of their populations. Here in Denmark, the most pro-Israeli country outside of US, Israeli Embassy woke up to hundreds of protesters surrounding it. Organizers accross the country are gathering resources for the next push, reenvigorated by the support coming from all over the world. But you don't know this, because the revolution will not be televised.

Take a moment to name one good thing in your society that isn't connected to common organizers - you won't find it. I know your education is insufficient to teach you this and I can hear in your post that you don't know this side of history, but if you are interested, read People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. Although Zinn targets the history-deprived US population, the same is valid for the rest of the world. At times it seemed that the organizers were going for the moon in frisbees, until the tide turned. Organized population is stronger than any government, any military - remember, military and police consist of our sons, brothers, fathers, mothers, daughters and sisters.

Apartheid ended because the resistance made the country ungovernable.  not because of publicity stunts. The resistance for the most part targeted things of economic value and destroyed them. It had very little to do with protest across the world... the sanctions didn't affect south africa that badly. I should know I live in south africa, one side of my family was in south africa at the time. It made things a little inconvinient but people still traded with south africa. IM not saying international pressure didnt play a role but it was a minor one.

 

The fact is no one will do anything about Israel until the US stops backing them and that will only happen when the US stops needing a friendly country in the region which at this rate will never happen. These protests are meaningless unless the US pulls out support for Israel. 

 

Honestly this is what I think, i may be proven wrong (and i hope that i am) but nothing will come off this. If something does hurray! we get Jewish camps again.... I don't think the "poor victums" would treat the Israelies any better than they are treated.

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
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All animals are equal.


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The Doomed Soul wrote:ZuS

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns?

If their plan was to smash a flatbed truck full of food through the front gate, through barricades and armed guards... yes. I would indeed ask the Nazis to purge anyone with intelligence that low. It doesnt help the prisoners, needlessly angers people with guns, risks your life without purpose, and STILL doesnt complete the damn objective >.<

If they were smashing a truck through any gate, that would make them a resistance movement, Nazis would still be Nazis and you would be a collaborator. My grandfather would gladly have put a bullet through your head for that little disservice, but I don't think it would be necessary. I don't think you can conceivably imagine yourself confronting anything, let alone a resistance movement.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

... These "activists" have done nothing but escalate an endless war, they knew what they were up against, they knew what would happen, and they still did it! They didnt help the Gaza citizens, all the did was make alot of countries mad at each other. Which is becoming ever more obvious as their main goal, all along.

So if becoming a martyr to invoke Turkey, Egypt, and Palastine into ANOTHER war with Israel, is good morals...

At least im open and honest about those i want dead, and the countries i want to burn... unlike some people >.>

That, of course, is not true. If they didn't run the humanitarian mission, then they would have escalated the endless war - just like apartheid would be alive and well today if years back then didn't fight back through informing and organizing and ultimately made it impossible for western governments to continue supporting the South African government of the time.

You and I can feel like the ground slipping under us because we morally and factually don't have a leg to stand on when compared to people who engage in and work through community organizing and take matters into their own hands, but saying that they are stupid for doing it is historically inaccurate, dishonest and a demonstration of lack of basic education.

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Ah, the sweet smell of calm

Ah, the sweet smell of calm and rational debate.

 

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OK Brian, I kind of agree

OK Brian, I kind of agree with you in general. The whole situation is a fucking mess. It will not go away until everyone involved realizes that stopping the bullshit is the way to get some semblance of a life.

 

I n the details, I can't tell if you missed what I was saying just because you were fast posting or if it was something more than that.

 

Brian37 wrote:
But there ARE western non-Muslims who were on other ships who got turned away even AFTER being determined to be non threatening. So all the western observers are liars because they saw things the camera''s didn't catch?

 

Hold on a sec! Sure, we know that there were people from Ireland and a few other countries involved. I can't see any point in not covering that. However, how the heck can you say that the Israeli forces made a determination that the people on the ships did not represent a threat? If they had made that threat determination, then there would be a very different problem at hand.

 

The thing is that the threat, if any existed, was based on the cargo in the ships. That threat determination simply cannot be made without redirecting the ships to a port where the cargo can be off loaded and inspected. At that point, whatever stuff is the threat will be diverted and the remainder will be sent on. Which is exactly what the government of Israel did.

 

Brian37 wrote:
No the Palestinians should not have gotten violent, but to say it was PR is bullshit. I think they knew they were going to get violent because they, no matter how wrong they were, were getting tired of people back home starving and dying because of lack of resources. I don't think either side has any rights to accuse the other of propaganda tactics all the time.

 

OK, please clarify who you are talking about. The PR stunt that I spoke of was the actions of the people on the ships. If, as you say, the Israeli military had made a “no threat” determination, then to say that they somehow knew that there would be violence is just not consistent within your own single post.

 

In any case, what we know now is a bit different from what we knew a few days ago.

 

We now know that the inbound ships have had the cargo offloaded, at least partially. We know that they were carrying tactical body armor, night vision gear and gas masks. Those are not valid items for a relief mission.

 

We know that the Israeli government sequestered those items and attempted to truck them into Gaza. We know that Hamas refused to let the aid into the area unless they got all of it.

 

Which bring up a critical question:

 

Do they need the food and medicine? If so, then they should be grateful for what they are getting.

 

Are they insisting on getting the military toys? If so, then they are holding their own people down to get what they want.

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Tapey wrote:The fact is no

Tapey wrote:

The fact is no one will do anything about Israel until the US stops backing them and that will only happen when the US stops needing a friendly country in the region which at this rate will never happen. These protests are meaningless unless the US pulls out support for Israel. 

US government, like any other, has a cost-benefit analysis to think about. If things become unfeasible and the unilateral action no longer made sense, they would back paddle. Do you know that every congress seat is at the moment up for grabs? And that's both sides of the ile, because people are fed up and are reacting. We are talking a tiny portion of the population, the Tea Party, is scaring the living lights out of everyone. As the public opinion in the US breaks through the glass ceilig in the next vote, and it will, then anti-involvement and isolationist voices will be heard down the corridors of the house of representatives, brought to you by people who take a stand - real conservatives. Eventually, as the domestic situation becomes ungovernable, they will have to bend, if they don't want to break. At first they will go underground and continue with clandestine operations.

There is actual precedent to this, if you bother to read history at all. Clandestine operations like The Bay of Pigs,  or basically everything that happened in mid and south america during the whole JFK and Reagan period was under wraps - they couldn't lift their head because of public outrage and activism. Clandestine operations are covert violence, which are obviously much more restricted, less effective and much less destructive for the local population. And when they become known, they tend to blow up into faces of the politicians.

Getting them to go underground is just the first step, but it's necessary.

Tapey wrote:

Honestly this is what I think, i may be proven wrong (and i hope that i am) but nothing will come off this. If something does hurray! we get Jewish camps again.... I don't think the "poor victums" would treat the Israelies any better than they are treated.

And then the ships would sail again, this time to break the new blockades. You should support them just because it's the right thing to do.

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ZuS wrote:If you need

ZuS wrote:
If you need evidence for the fact that their strategy works, you need to look no further than the bottom-up organizing accross the world that brought down the apartheid regime in South Africa.

 

OK ZuS, I will do you one better. Eh, let's make it two better. How about the resistance to British colonial rule that led to the creation of Israel's two largest trading partners? The US and India.

 

BTW: I happen to live about a dozen miles from the spot of the CT shore where Nathan Hale left for Long Island. So yah, you can say that I have an awareness of how these things happen.

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ZuS wrote:Tapey

ZuS wrote:

Tapey wrote:

Honestly this is what I think, i may be proven wrong (and i hope that i am) but nothing will come off this. If something does hurray! we get Jewish camps again.... I don't think the "poor victums" would treat the Israelies any better than they are treated.

And then the ships would sail again, this time to break the new blockades. You should support them just because it's the right thing to do.

about the US thing first... time will tell who is right I don't see the point in continueing it, I think they would be better off attacking israel, causing actual damage and not hide behind civilians and complain when civilian die. thats the part which annoys me.

 

An i cannot do that as they are not right. no one is right. they are all drowning in a sea of wrong, all sides involved.

 

and on that i leave this topic , it annoys me to much

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ZuS wrote:   Tapey

ZuS wrote:

 

Tapey wrote:
The fact is no one will do anything about Israel until the US stops backing them and that will only happen when the US stops needing a friendly country in the region which at this rate will never happen. These protests are meaningless unless the US pulls out support for Israel.

 

Do you know that every congress seat is at the moment up for grabs?

 

Don't fall for that Tapey. It is in fact true of elections in any even number of years. They serve a two year term and they can end up thrown out on their collective asses each time. The rest of his analysis is similarly defective.

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The Doomed Soul wrote:Kapkao

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

More like... "Where did I put my whimpering idealistic pseudo-revolutionary hypocrite repellent?" 

As i said... Hippie

You know, these guys aren't really hippies. They are lawyers, doctors, teachers, professors, governmental representatives, religious leaders, men, women, old and young - ordinary people. There were 600 of them on that biggest ship alone - that is a lot of very serious, ordinary working people - NOT hippies. And if you look at the footage, some of them don't take being boarded in international waters lightly either. You should really give them a chance. It might look like nothing to you, but Europe is on fire over the attack and governments are reeling.

And I just saw your "honesty about which country you want to burn" comment - if you are suggesting that I want to burn Israel, you need to get serious. I get more support debating Israelis than here and we need to help them fight from within by putting pressure on our governments to stop supporting their regime. In their society there is HUGE incentive to militarize, because the money is pooring in into that sector. There is no way in hell that I want to burn these people - what is the matter with you? You transport food and medicine because you don't want things going up in flames. Every life risked at sea will mean hundreds and later thousands saved on the ground, every ship that goes through will bring 10 more, and they carry reporters - you know, those guys that are prohibited from entering Gaza, people who take pictures of what is going on inside Gaza strip. When those pictures hit the screens with the severity and intensive attention the world is watching with at the moment, we will see who will break and who will bend. This is why Israeli military reacts fiercly - they know the only way they can win is if they stop the ships dead in their tracks before they can reach ground. They have had it proven to them that the only way to do this is to open fire - and this is a short lived and hollow victory, a political disaster. For every 10 shot, 100 will be recruited from the offended countries and military shipments will become about as popular as those to Indonesia were under the East Timor genocide.

By the way, look East Timor up - filming of a single massacre of 200 East Timorese civilians initiated outrage that froze diplomatic corridores world wide, something that 200.000 victims couldn't do. That is how you break a genocide: break silence and then the back of our own governments, make them backtrack on issues simply because support becomes intractable. The first reporters that went there were Australian - they were all shot. Then the young crew of what became Democracy Now went - they were assaulted and one of them got his scull bashed in by a rifle butt while protecting another member of the crew, but not before they managed to hide the footage of the massacre.

You called them idiots. You should reconsider. You should rethink what they teach you in history class as well.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

...

Quote:

Do you know that every congress seat is at the moment up for grabs?

 

Don't fall for that Tapey. It is in fact true of elections in any even number of years. They serve a two year term and they can end up thrown out on their collective asses each time. The rest of his analysis is similarly defective.

 

Here's some background for my claim, a study report: http://www.examiner.com/x-16044-Christianity--Politics-Examiner~y2009m12d7-Tea-Party-Candidates-get-voter-preference-over-Republic...

Some accuse Rasmussen Reports of being biased and I don't put much faith in pollsters anyway, but a common theme at the news outlets I follow at moment seems to be candidates out of nowhere riding a tidlewave of anger caused by the dire economical straits, imigration issues, resistance to US involvement overseas and the like, to push through both seats in Senate, House and some interesting laws. I won't spend a lot of time debating this, but if you think that public outrage will not have huge effect in the upcoming elections, you got a correction coming.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

ZuS wrote:
If you need evidence for the fact that their strategy works, you need to look no further than the bottom-up organizing accross the world that brought down the apartheid regime in South Africa.

 

OK ZuS, I will do you one better. Eh, let's make it two better. How about the resistance to British colonial rule that led to the creation of Israel's two largest trading partners? The US and India.

 

Yes, that is a fair suggestion - resistance to colonial rule constituting nations. I won't go into details, because they aren't pretty, but your suggestion is a valid example of the power of resistance.

Constitution of Israel is another example of the power of organizing - not like anyone really had much good to say about Israel, until it demonstrated it could survive opposition in the middle east. It is only after the successful "proof of concept" and assurances that Israel would go all-out with expansionism given the opportunity, that the US decided Israel was a good front base, so constitution of israel is largely contributable to extremely efficient organizing.

Samewhat different type of organizing is the reason why Iraq and Afghanistan aren't carpet bombed by napalm and covered by agent orange, as they would have been 40 years earlier - popular organizing changes the cost-benefit ratio and things have a real chance to get better. Indeed, anywhere you look, you will see results of popular bottom-up organizing making life a bit more tolerable for the majority.

If you are trying to damage my claim that the ships have effect, you'r not doing a very good job. If anything you are making it more pressient that we organize and teach our children to do the same, because we are up against some pretty well organized thieves and mass murderers. Maybe next ships that set sail will be filmed live by CNN choppers. Or maybe the one's after that.

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Steps: 1. Slice open skin 2. pour in rock salt... 3. BURNT!

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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ZuS wrote:If they were

ZuS wrote:

If they were smashing a truck through any gate, that would make them a resistance movement, Nazis would still be Nazis and you would be a collaborator. My grandfather would gladly have put a bullet through your head for that little disservice, but I don't think it would be necessary. I don't think you can conceivably imagine yourself confronting anything, let alone a resistance movement.

So, smashing a truck full of food through a nazi death camp to get it to the jews within, makes you a resistance movement... but smashing a cargoship full of supplies through a naval blockade makes you, what was it again... a humanitarian? They are essentially the exact same scenario. If they ARE a resistance movement, i feel no pity for them because they know what they are doing... if they're some humanitarian effort, i feel no pity for them because they are completely retarded.

 

 

ZuS wrote:
but saying that they are stupid for doing it is historically inaccurate, dishonest and a demonstration of lack of basic education.

No no ZuS! you misunderstand me... im not saying they're stupid for DOING it, im saying they're stupid for doing it POORLY... and then crying about it!

For me it falls in the same catagory as suicide bombers.

Why run into a crowd with a backpack full of explosives and blow yourself up, when you can place the backpack down, blow it up from a distance, and live to do it again tommorrow? Its stupid... if your going to do something, do it right! If you want Gaza'ns to get food, dont fucking challenge the IDF to a game of chicken!

 

TLDR; I hate amateurs

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ZuS wrote:You know, these

ZuS wrote:

You know, these guys aren't really hippies.

Yes i know that, i was just using a blanket term to be a dick

 

ZuS wrote:

And I just saw your "honesty about which country you want to burn" comment - if you are suggesting that I want to burn Israel,

Sorry, comment wasnt directed at you, or anyone else on this board really.

 

What Would Kharn Do?


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The Doomed Soul wrote:ZuS

The Doomed Soul wrote:

ZuS wrote:

If they were smashing a truck through any gate, that would make them a resistance movement, Nazis would still be Nazis and you would be a collaborator. My grandfather would gladly have put a bullet through your head for that little disservice, but I don't think it would be necessary. I don't think you can conceivably imagine yourself confronting anything, let alone a resistance movement.

So, smashing a truck full of food through a nazi death camp to get it to the jews within, makes you a resistance movement... but smashing a cargoship full of supplies through a naval blockade makes you, what was it again... a humanitarian? They are essentially the exact same scenario. If they ARE a resistance movement, i feel no pity for them because they know what they are doing... if they're some humanitarian effort, i feel no pity for them because they are completely retarded.

 

 

ZuS wrote:
but saying that they are stupid for doing it is historically inaccurate, dishonest and a demonstration of lack of basic education.

No no ZuS! you misunderstand me... im not saying they're stupid for DOING it, im saying they're stupid for doing it POORLY... and then crying about it!

For me it falls in the same catagory as suicide bombers.

Why run into a crowd with a backpack full of explosives and blow yourself up, when you can place the backpack down, blow it up from a distance, and live to do it again tommorrow? Its stupid... if your going to do something, do it right! If you want Gaza'ns to get food, dont fucking challenge the IDF to a game of chicken!

 

TLDR; I hate amateurs

AWSOME ANALOGY!

And points out  what I was saying. If you keep doing something and keep getting the same results what makes you think the results will change.

If I am really pissed at Israel and bring a knife to a gunfight what makes me think using a knife will work? CONVERSELY,  If I am Israel and not only do I try to kill the individual, but individual groups and end up carpet bombing even those not involved in the action, why should I be surprised that the people who were the collateral damage give a shit what your reasons were?

I am not suggesting that the Palestinians think "bigger" but in that for all humans involved in ANY beef, the bigger picture for the world is that escalation can lead to the abyss no human should want.

 

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Thank you, Iwbiek!

iwbiek wrote:
oh, fuck you, kapkao!  i'm callin' your whole goddamn deck, you motherfucker!  i don't know where you keep getting this fucking bullshit idea that i'm an "idealist."  what the

fuck

was "idealistic" or "revolutionary" about "better dhimmi than dead?"  when the

fuck

have i ever talked ideals with you?  or for that matter, anyone else on this board at any recent time?  you're the one who apparently has some kind of a fuckin' problem with people being "dhimmi"--at least enough of a problem to ridicule it.  well, guess what?  we're

all

fuckin' "dhimmi" to

someone

.  i won't necessarily say it's always better being alive than dead, but at least 90% of the time it is.  the only time you'd ever see me be a real, life-risking "revolutionary" is when i could be convinced that a large enough majority of the human race had pulled their heads out of their asses to shoot down the minority who hadn't like mangy dogs, and i got enough sense to know that ain't

ever

gonna happen. 

ever.

  maybe some poor, brave motherfucker (far braver than you or i or any other shit-eater on these boards) in the pissing rain in seville in 1937 could make himself believe it could, but here in the 21st godshittin' century i got enough hindsight to know it

can't

.

how's that for ideals, you batshit crazy sonofabitch?  now take your goddamn unfunny cat posters and shove 'em up your ass.

Nothing makes my day better than to see some whiney, gripey, sniveling weasel fly into an e-rage and start spitting profanity at everything within grasp.Brings out my inner sadist, it does!

 

At that, I'm pretty sure all 5 of these "definitions" describe you in some way:

dictionary.com's definition for "idealist wrote:

1.a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc.
2.a visionary or impractical person.
3.a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are.
4.a writer or artist who treats subjects imaginatively.
5.a person who accepts the doctrines of idealism.

Egh... that fifth one may or may not be a stretch for you. The rest fit perfectly. Now... continue whining, griping, and sniveling about how some punk on the internet hurt your feelings or whatever.

SHIT! If my skin was as half as brittle as yours... I'd have jumped in front of a speeding semi already!

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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AND THIS SHOULD BE PROOF to

AND THIS SHOULD BE PROOF to both sides of this issue is that pragmatism often gets lost to the real reality that survival isn't about empathy for the enemy, but doing whatever is needed to protect their own. Yet both of you want to reach old age.

Labels and differences are a cluster fuck but when the tribalism and emotionalism is put in check that is where the problem solving happens.

Focus on the old age, not the borders, not the religion, not the tribalism. Humans are humans and until we face that the crap that I am hearing from both sides in this thread will continue.

Survival is not global, it is local. That is a hick up in human evolution.

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Brian37 wrote:AWSOME

Brian37 wrote:

AWSOME ANALOGY!

And points out  what I was saying. If you keep doing something and keep getting the same results what makes you think the results will change.

If I am really pissed at Israel and bring a knife to a gunfight what makes me think using a knife will work? CONVERSELY,  If I am Israel and not only do I try to kill the individual, but individual groups and end up carpet bombing even those not involved in the action, why should I be surprised that the people who were the collateral damage give a shit what your reasons were?

I am not suggesting that the Palestinians think "bigger" but in that for all humans involved in ANY beef, the bigger picture for the world is that escalation can lead to the abyss no human should want.

 

 

You refuse to condemn the Israelis because "both sides are bad" but when one side attempts to use less violent means to highlight the brutality of the other side you condemn them for being stupid and say they should have been smart enough to use violence. You're making the internet look bad, and proving the Dunning-Kruger effect.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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(aka "notice me plz!")

Gauche wrote:

You refuse to condemn the Israelis because "both sides are bad" but when one side attempts to use less violent means to highlight the brutality of the other side you condemn them for being stupid and say they should have been smart enough to use violence. You're making the internet look bad, and proving the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Which is all fine and well, so long as you all acknowledge that I'm a perverse, twisted "son of a bitch" that likes e-raging wimps and bleeding hearts for my own sick, sadistic sense of amusement.

And, like most of you, but UNLIKE the pacifistic fuckwits trying to run the blockade... I'm still alive!!  

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Gauche wrote: say they

Gauche wrote:

 say they should have been smart enough to use violence.

... o_O i must have missed where that was said.

It sounds like something i WOULD say... but havent, yet... >.>


 

What Would Kharn Do?


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Mankind will fall on its own spear one day...

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Gauche wrote:

 say they should have been smart enough to use violence.

... o_O i must have missed where that was said.

It sounds like something i WOULD say... but havent, yet... >.>

...and you and I will still be at the top of the food chain.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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The Doomed Soul wrote:They

The Doomed Soul wrote:

They are essentially the exact same scenario.

No, they are not. Sailing through a naval blocade dosn't destroy anything but an imaginary line - you can certainly sail through it, the only danger is getting shot. If you aim at destroying or impeeding something or someone physically, this becomes a different realm - violence. So, in this case you don't have an active, physical resistance movement like the one you describe. You could argue that IDF were a physical resistance movement in this case, but you can't have a physical resistance movement, if you are opposing a non-violent foe. Then you are just an aggressor.

You could call the activists for a resistance movement, sure, the kind that hid Jews under the second world war in their attics in Poland - that was high treason. There is a big difference between sailing over an imaginary line and ramming a truck through a guard post.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

If they ARE a resistance movement, i feel no pity for them because they know what they are doing... if they're some humanitarian effort, i feel no pity for them because they are completely retarded.

Ok, so, they constitute a humanitarian effort. Pitying them would be absurd, because they live a fuller life than most people. However, you should support them. I argued already why you should support them.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

No no ZuS! you misunderstand me... im not saying they're stupid for DOING it, im saying they're stupid for doing it POORLY... and then crying about it!

They are doing it as good as any non-violent resistance movement can be doing it: they organized a convoy of ships, media, people from all walks of life including government officials and on top of that they got millions worth of necessary supplies. They are not crying about it - they are trying to set a precedent by delivering desperately needed supplies, breaking silence and drawing attention to the issue. None of them expected to die in the effort and most of them would have prefered establishing a different precedent than was the case, but that didn't happen.

This is the kind of attention they got, so this is what they got to work with now. Media exposure is an integral part of the strategy - sunlight is the best desinfectant. So in a way, media coverage is a type of emergency humanitarian aid - the kind not allowed by Israeli military.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

For me it falls in the same catagory as suicide bombers.

This ought to be good.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Why run into a crowd with a backpack full of explosives and blow yourself up, when you can place the backpack down, blow it up from a distance, and live to do it again tommorrow?

Many reasons. If you are alive, you can get caught, which is a whole world of trouble for you, the organization, even a threat to the reason for the bombing - not many yell "Freedom!" when their guts are cut out of their stomachs and that hurts the image of the organization. Also, if you are supposed to live, you might start saving yourself, rather than finishing the mission.

Many think that suicide bombers are some top-of-the-line indoctrinated ninja terrorists - they very, very rarely are. If they have to fly a plane into a building, yea. But not if all you have to do is walk into an embassy and detonate. Deaths of the most common suicide bombers are completely insignificant for the organization - they basically take all kinds of people. Some get paid for it so their families don't starve, others lost all family to US troops, yet others get trained and indoctrinated, stuff like that.

Other than these pragmatic reasons, there is a much more important plathora of psychological reasons. Direct effect of a suicide bomber on public perception of an attack is very different than just a bomber - it gives an air of dedication, makes a statement about the importance of the issue and makes people ask who would do such a thing and why. If they just left the bomb and walked away, that would result in much less sympathy and fewer questions about why this was done. All that would be asked is who did it and when caught his answers to questions why would be ignored. This is by the way part of the reason why terrorist organizations claim terrorist actions - to eliminate this hunt mentality and go directly to the "why" of the matter. There are other more significant reasons for claiming the bombings as well, like notoriety.

That's why suicide bombing > bombing. You could say that they are being humane in a perverted way - it's as if they want the deaths to count. These are either completely brainwashed people, or individuals in truly desperate conditions.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

Its stupid... if your going to do something, do it right! If you want Gaza'ns to get food, dont fucking challenge the IDF to a game of chicken!

What if you want to bring in aid, as opposed to be turned away because cement isn't allowed? Or dried fruit? Or oil? Or whatever the hell the embargo of the day is? What if you want to bring in an amount that Israeli don't allow, but is necessary for the bare minimum of survival for many people? What if Israeli military starts using access to aid as another screw to tighten on the population? What if you want to give Gazans access to western media, which will never be allowed by Israel? What if you want to make the rest of the world give a damn? What if they wanted to make you and I discuss the issue at least superficially?

No, sorry, this is the only way - civil disobedience. We have to make aid a matter of fact no one dares impede and we have to make the blockade and ultimately occupation too politically expensive to maintain. That's how blacks got to ride in the front seats of the bus, that's how workers got humane workplace conditions and that's how Gazans will see the light of day. You might not know it, 'cause you were born in the paradise created by the sweat of your ancestors and you don't know the blood that went into your free education, healthcare and civil services, but you can't afford not to learn that having these things means fighting for them. Your children can't afford it either.

The Doomed Soul wrote:

TLDR; I hate amateurs

We are all amateurs. Some just don't prostitute themselves by renting their skills to serve the purpose of others, but focus their efforts on what they think is important instead.

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.


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Tapey wrote:ZuS wrote:Tapey

Tapey wrote:

ZuS wrote:

Tapey wrote:

ZuS wrote:

 

Would you tell Nazi guards at Auschwitz 1943 too "clense" people bringing food to the prisoners in the concntration camp as well? What would your justification for that be? They should have known Nazis had guns? Shit, I am glad there aren't many people like you around.

Well would any non retard bring food to the jews in the concentration camp when they knew they would be caught? It may be the right thing to do but they would still be retards for doing it. I wouldn't tell them to do any clensing but I would expect that is what would happen.

How do you think you got guarantied pensions in your country? How do you think children got a right to go to school, instead of working their asses off in some factory from the age of 6? How do you think workplace regulation protecting lives and health came about? How do you think any minimal security for the mass of population, from the seatbelts in the cars to healthcare, came into existence? They weren't given away by friendly and service-minded corporations and governments - never. They were won through sweat and blood of people like those that took to the ships and sailed unarmed against one of the most powerful military forces on earth.

How does anything good happen in this world? Only two ways: sheer chance or dilligent work and sacrifice of people organizing bottom-up. You can sit back and call them morons, but you quickly forget where your life the way you know it came from. You think you can relax now - no more fights to be fought? After all the the blood of the protesters has dried on the streets and you can have a job where you aren't driven like an animal. Don't kid yourself - maybe not you, but your children will wake up to a less fortunate future because of your inaction, while you are guarantied to live with no control of your life, no knowledge of what you can do, afraid of moving left or right, afraid to connect to your community and nation, not engaging the courts, not claiming your rights - basically less than alive.

and this is my point... actions must have an aim in mind there must be reward.  There is no reward for there actions they are just getting themselves killed, there current tactic isn't working and they continue to persist with it. they are retards. Try something new. Every sucssessful  movement changed there approach when there current one failed, if they didn't it wouldn't of worked. Don't get me wrong Israel are probably more retarded... do they really think doing things this way will last forever? They are in a very hostile place with very few friends who actually would help.

Thank you. I think the supporters of Israel don't understand human psychology any more than the Palestinians do. Until any human is put under threat they don't know what they are capable of.

Problems exist on both sides.

1. Palestine.......living in the past

2. Israel, living in the past, and because of their blind nostalgia moved into this bad neighborhood.

Why are both sides so deeply against each other?

LABELS based on tribal gang mentality.

Neither side wants to see that when someone dies a human dies. They think of the other as a sub species, instead of the same species.

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Israel claims the whole

Israel claims the whole current punitive level of restrictions on Gaza are to get Hamas to free an Israeli soldier they captured four years ago.

Hamas in turn has been demanding Israel free "all female and underage Palestinian prisoners held in Israel, as well as a further 1000 prisoners" ( Wikipedia ).

This seems like a version of the endless cycle of 'payback' threat and violence that happens in tribal societies, most notoriously in Papua-New Guinea.

Except its worse here when the level of actual injury, real or threatened, at each round is out of proportion to what it is reacting to.

Israel turned it into a direct 'punishment' of the civilian population of Gaza, which is criminal. Of course, members of the Hamas organization apparently have their own sources of supplies, so they are not the ones suffering.

It's a fucking mess.

Of course, out-of-scale 'punishment' and disregard of innocents being impacted is entirely consistent with the pathetic excuse for 'morality' you get from all the major variations of Abrahamic crap infecting that region.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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Kapkao wrote:iwbiek

Kapkao wrote:

iwbiek wrote:
oh, fuck you, kapkao!  i'm callin' your whole goddamn deck, you motherfucker!  i don't know where you keep getting this fucking bullshit idea that i'm an "idealist."  what the

fuck

was "idealistic" or "revolutionary" about "better dhimmi than dead?"  when the

fuck

have i ever talked ideals with you?  or for that matter, anyone else on this board at any recent time?  you're the one who apparently has some kind of a fuckin' problem with people being "dhimmi"--at least enough of a problem to ridicule it.  well, guess what?  we're

all

fuckin' "dhimmi" to

someone

.  i won't necessarily say it's always better being alive than dead, but at least 90% of the time it is.  the only time you'd ever see me be a real, life-risking "revolutionary" is when i could be convinced that a large enough majority of the human race had pulled their heads out of their asses to shoot down the minority who hadn't like mangy dogs, and i got enough sense to know that ain't

ever

gonna happen. 

ever.

  maybe some poor, brave motherfucker (far braver than you or i or any other shit-eater on these boards) in the pissing rain in seville in 1937 could make himself believe it could, but here in the 21st godshittin' century i got enough hindsight to know it

can't

.

how's that for ideals, you batshit crazy sonofabitch?  now take your goddamn unfunny cat posters and shove 'em up your ass.

Nothing makes my day better than to see some whiney, gripey, sniveling weasel fly into an e-rage and start spitting profanity at everything within grasp.Brings out my inner sadist, it does!

 

At that, I'm pretty sure all 5 of these "definitions" describe you in some way:

dictionary.com's definition for "idealist wrote:

1.a person who cherishes or pursues high or noble principles, purposes, goals, etc.
2.a visionary or impractical person.
3.a person who represents things as they might or should be rather than as they are.
4.a writer or artist who treats subjects imaginatively.
5.a person who accepts the doctrines of idealism.

Egh... that fifth one may or may not be a stretch for you. The rest fit perfectly. Now... continue whining, griping, and sniveling about how some punk on the internet hurt your feelings or whatever.

SHIT! If my skin was as half as brittle as yours... I'd have jumped in front of a speeding semi already!

but as usual, you fail to substantiate your point.  give some examples as to how i fit those definitions, you fucking degenerate troglodyte piece of pigshit.

btw, you can't really call brittle skin when a person is in the middle of a raging three-day rum drunk.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


The Doomed Soul
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iwbiek wrote:but as usual,

iwbiek wrote:

but as usual, you fail to substantiate your point.  give some examples as to how i fit those definitions, you fucking degenerate troglodyte piece of pigshit.

btw, you can't really call brittle skin when a person is in the middle of a raging three-day rum drunk.

 

iwbiek... you should be drunk more often

What Would Kharn Do?


iwbiek
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The Doomed Soul wrote:iwbiek

The Doomed Soul wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

but as usual, you fail to substantiate your point.  give some examples as to how i fit those definitions, you fucking degenerate troglodyte piece of pigshit.

btw, you can't really call brittle skin when a person is in the middle of a raging three-day rum drunk.

 

iwbiek... you should be drunk more often

you might get your wish.  summer is coming on, which means i hit the rum more.  it also means work is slowing down so i have more time to sit in beer gardens, read, drink, sweat, and thus drink more.

"I asked my father,
I said, 'Father change my name.'
The one I'm using now it's covered up
with fear and filth and cowardice and shame."
--Leonard Cohen


Kapkao
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Y halo thar buttsecks! LOLOLZ

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Call? Like "call-on-the-phone"?

iwbiek wrote:
but as usual, you fail to substantiate your point.  give some examples as to how i fit those definitions, you fucking degenerate troglodyte piece of pigshit.

btw, you can't really call brittle skin when a person is in the middle of a raging three-day rum drunk.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


Kapkao
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You're shittin' me...

The Doomed Soul wrote:

iwbiek wrote:

but as usual, you fail to substantiate your point.  give some examples as to how i fit those definitions, you fucking degenerate troglodyte piece of pigshit.

btw, you can't really call brittle skin when a person is in the middle of a raging three-day rum drunk.

 

iwbiek... you should be drunk more often

Internet drama is a dime-a-kilo nowadays; has been for years. 

[bullshit]obtw Doomy, I just hacked into one of your game accounts and stole all yer shit. I'm also going to make you K-O-S with yer guild by midnight. You can have it back, but only after I see n00dz.[/bullshit]

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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I don't think we are going

I don't think we are going to get either side of this issue to agree on much which IS proving my point. The pain and suffering on both sides is causing a lasting paranoia. I really do think it comes down to lack of understanding of human psychology.

I don't think this thread is pointless though. IT should show many out there that the west (citizens, of various nations, not simply governments, but individuals) are not locked in blind loyalty. I do see both advocates of both sides in this thread wanting it to stop, and outsiders wanting it to stop.

My only point in all this is if those who are choosing sides in this thread really want to help out both sides, then instead of pissing on each other in this thread, instead of offering more of the same, can you both offer up what you would like to see?

If this thread were not about this conflict and was a simple survey how do you think the majority of people would answer the following question?

Do you want people acting violently toward you?

Is this a hard question for anyone to answer? Do you need a label to answer that question?

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Brian37 wrote:I don't think

Brian37 wrote:

I don't think we are going to get either side of this issue to agree on much which IS proving my point. The pain and suffering on both sides is causing a lasting paranoia. I really do think it comes down to lack of understanding of human psychology.

I don't think this thread is pointless though. IT should show many out there that the west (citizens, of various nations, not simply governments, but individuals) are not locked in blind loyalty. I do see both advocates of both sides in this thread wanting it to stop, and outsiders wanting it to stop.

My only point in all this is if those who are choosing sides in this thread really want to help out both sides, then instead of pissing on each other in this thread, instead of offering more of the same, can you both offer up what you would like to see?

If this thread were not about this conflict and was a simple survey how do you think the majority of people would answer the following question?

Do you want people acting violently toward you?

Is this a hard question for anyone to answer? Do you need a label to answer that question?

In B37's dreamy world... it's actually possible to bring peace to Eretz Yisrael.

I'm wise (and pragmatic? ha!) enough to know better.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Kapkao wrote:Brian37 wrote:I

Kapkao wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

I don't think we are going to get either side of this issue to agree on much which IS proving my point. The pain and suffering on both sides is causing a lasting paranoia. I really do think it comes down to lack of understanding of human psychology.

I don't think this thread is pointless though. IT should show many out there that the west (citizens, of various nations, not simply governments, but individuals) are not locked in blind loyalty. I do see both advocates of both sides in this thread wanting it to stop, and outsiders wanting it to stop.

My only point in all this is if those who are choosing sides in this thread really want to help out both sides, then instead of pissing on each other in this thread, instead of offering more of the same, can you both offer up what you would like to see?

If this thread were not about this conflict and was a simple survey how do you think the majority of people would answer the following question?

Do you want people acting violently toward you?

Is this a hard question for anyone to answer? Do you need a label to answer that question?

In B37's dreamy world... it's actually possible to bring peace to Eretz Yisrael.

I'm wise (and pragmatic? ha!) enough to know better.

Damn, this right here is why beefs between neighbors and beefs between political parties and beefs between countries and beefs between religions never get solved peacefully.

I never said I lived in a delusional world where everyone sings kumbia. I do live in the real world. I AM merely suggesting, not to the zealots of ANY CAMP but to the moderates around the world to think about the question i posed and maybe there could be more pressure on both.

Wounds like this run long and deep and are not healed over night. But if you want to be pessimistic go ahead. I Think there are plenty of people around the world of all labels that see what I see. If you want to just simply continue beating people into submission because that is what you have always done, because it is an "us vs them" world, go ahead.

But pluralistic societies DO exist and to say things have to stay the same and only change through violence is pessimistic. It is not delusional to tell people that repeating the same mistakes don't produce different results.I never said that I expect things to change over night, or change because of what I am writing here, or even that they will ever change. But I am damned sure going to TRY to make an appeal to humans in that they are, we are all human.

One person's "defense" is another person's "aggression" and until pain is seen as universal it makes old wounds hard to heal.

I never said my words were a  magic pill. But I damn sure am going to try to tell both sides to knock it off as much as I can and I am going to keep telling all humans that this is the only life we have. I won't save the world, but certainly appealing to the best in all of us is better than being part of the same tribal crap that divides humanity.

I am not looking for a Nobel prize. Just stating the obvious in that we all are capable of the same range of human emotions and actions, both good and bad.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


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Vastet wrote:(Obama is now

Vastet wrote:
(Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none)

HA!

 

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.


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jmm wrote:Vastet

jmm wrote:

Vastet wrote:
(Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none)

HA!

 

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.

 

I think one of the memes that should be spread is that diversity of humans.

 

 

We need not make generalizations of this or that group.


There are atheists who support Israel and those that oppose Israel. This comment ignores the former as well as other comments here. There are Muslims that don't want the destruction of Israel, they just want Israel out of their business.  There are Jews that don't want the destruction of Palestine, they just want Hamas to stop attacking.

 

 

This human tendency to just pick one side and run with it isn't going to get us anywhere and I think it's best to learn how to get over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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jmm wrote:Vastet

jmm wrote:

Vastet wrote:
(Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none)

HA!

 

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.

No you weren't. That statement is not compatible with actual 'thinking', at least in the sense of even partially informed reasoning...

If you didn't intend that as some poorly calculated sarcasm, you really are a douchebag.

If you hadn't noticed, the point being made by many people here is that both sides in this dispute, Israel and Hamas, are being fucking stupid and short-sighted in their own way.

To even bring up 'anti-semitism' at this point is beyond dumb.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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HA! yourself double Ha Ha.

jmm wrote:

Vastet wrote:
(Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none)

HA!

 

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.

 

 

                 They would make lousy Muslims, WHY? Muslims are NOT anti-semitic.   WHY?  Arabs and a few other tribal groups ARE SEMITES just like their brother JEWS.  Even the most bigotted Arab country does not use the word Jew in their own language ,  WHY?  because it makes no sense in Arabic they might use the word Israeli, or Zionist or more likely Mussowi (follower of Moses).

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

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BobSpence1 wrote:jmm

BobSpence1 wrote:

jmm wrote:

Vastet wrote:
(Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none)

HA!

 

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.

a) poorly calculated sarcasm,

b) you really are a douchebag.

not either/or, both/and.


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jmm wrote:I was just

jmm wrote:

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.

I'm an atheist. If you bother to read the old posts, you'll see that I and other atheists here support Israel.

For that matter, I have Jewish family members. I certainly don't hate them. Also, 37% of Jewish Israelis ARE atheists. Were you joking or something?

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India


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Duh! Does his post look like anything other than flamebait?

BobSpence1 wrote:

jmm wrote:

Vastet wrote:
(Obama is now officially the greatest US president in US history, bar none)

HA!

 

I was just thinking:  many of you would make excellent Muslims, as blind anti-Semitism is a fundamental prerequisite for both Islam and atheism.

No you weren't. That statement is not compatible with actual 'thinking', at least in the sense of even partially informed reasoning...

If you didn't intend that as some poorly calculated sarcasm, you really are a douchebag.

If you hadn't noticed, the point being made by many people here is that both sides in this dispute, Israel and Hamas, are being fucking stupid and short-sighted in their own way.

To even bring up 'anti-semitism' at this point is beyond dumb.

I agree with the first 3 lines. The 4th line in your post, is vaguely disagree-able. Vastet and other leftists-along with a shitload of some of my more leftist friends at facebook- took an obvious and blatant antizionist slant when posting in this thread.

Jormungandr (I suspect) knows enough about the Zionist-Palestinian conflict to know that Israel was created as a safe-haven for Jewish people on the strict basis that this land was their ancestral homeland (Eretz Yisrael) long before "Palestine" even had a name. In the next decade after WWII and the Emancipation of Israel, America and the UK hopped in bed with Israel as well simply because these are both highly Christianized nations, and they had a vested interest in 'protecting the holyland'.

I still maintain that if the USA had no diplomatic ties to Israel, it would be little more than an irradiated glass ocean* by now.

Thank you, that is all.

*or an eastern arm of Egypt.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:I think

Cpt_pineapple wrote:


I think one of the memes that should be spread is that diversity of humans.

We need not make generalizations of this or that group.
There are atheists who support Israel and those that oppose Israel. This comment ignores the former as well as other comments here. There are Muslims that don't want the destruction of Israel, they just want Israel out of their business.  There are Jews that don't want the destruction of Palestine, they just want Hamas to stop attacking.

This human tendency to just pick one side and run with it isn't going to get us anywhere and I think it's best to learn how to get over it. 

Cut it out with your rationality, already!

You're taking all the fun away from putting imbeciles in their place.

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)