Religion doesn't have a leg to stand on

quarkyphysicist
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Religion doesn't have a leg to stand on

For some background, I used to be a member of the Lutheran Church before I became an atheist. I used to see the bible with the blinders, but as I studied the bible more deeply and learned about the mountian of evidence for evolution and really studied comparative mythology and what the bible really said that I decided that religion wasn't my cup of tea.


Here are some of the evidence that convinced me:

1) I watched a nova special on genetic diseases - Many of these diseases have no explaination if you don't believe in evolution.

2) When I took my wife to my friends church, the pastor referred to the passages about:

Women should submit to their husbands as onto God.

Women should cover their heads in church. 

Women should remain silent in church. 

And the passage in Jude about the sexual sins of angels in Genesis 6.


Why wife asked me - Why do they believe this?

I had never thought about it before so I read up on it.

I discovered the book of enoch. 

According to the book of Enoch, the angels saw the daughters of men and went down and forcably took them for wives. According to the book of Enoch, this is the source of most of the evil in the world. My creationist friends say no the bible says that the fall of man is the source of evil. If you say the book is not inspired then why does Jesus and Paul quote from it.

If God can't control his servants, then he either is not all powerfull or as George Carlin put it best: he doesn't give a shit, (at least until after the fact).

Comparatibe mythology gives a rational explaination for the Genesis 6/Book of Enoch angel/human sex bullshit. In the Eygptian Flood myth: the reason that the gods flood the nile is this: 

The sons of the Pharaoh's sons (the Sons of God), saw that the daughters of men (the peasant class) were beautiful and decided to take them as wives. The resulting children were wicked. So the eyptian gods decided to kill them by sending a flood.  No angels and no sex.   

My creationist friend will say that Genesis 6 refers to the children of Seth (Sons of God) and children of Cain (Daughters of men). This is not what the hebrew says! The expression for sons of God is always used in the Scriptures for angels and the word for Daughters of man is literally the Daughters of Adam. The Septuagint clearly states in greek that the angels had sexual relations with men.

3) The Cosmology of the Bible:

A literal reading of the bible informs us that the earth is surrounded my firmament. This hebrew word refers to a stone shell. They believed that sky was made of rocks and that the stars and sun were attached to the rock in the sky. This belief stems from the egyptian myth of Geb and Nut. In this myth, the earth and sky were lovers but brother and sister. Amen-ra seperated the two lovers. Gen the earth amd he made Nut into a dome to forever seperate the two.

4) Copy creation myths:

Note that Genesis One is almost exactly the same as the Eyptian creation myth that leads up to the Geb/Nut seperation. Except for one thing: the hebrews deleted all mention of the other Gods in the text. And they deleted the whole part about Amen-ra masterbating the world into existence.  

Note that Genesis Two has almost the same structure as the Babylonian creation myth about the creation of man. Except for the fact that they delete the mention of the Enki's desire to have some servants to make him bread and beer.

Most Christian scholars will say this that the Jews copied the myths so that they could show the superiority of their God to the Egyptian and babylonian gods. If God created the heavens and the earth and told moses directly how he did it, why the hell would he quote the Eyptian and Bablyonian myths.

5) The Names of God and the Canaanite Mythology

If you look closely at the names for God:

El Shaddai, Elyon, El, Yahweh, Baal (It is Hebrew word for Lord so the Jew sometime called God baal)l.

Some of the Other gods mentioned in the Bible - Chemosh, Dagon, Asherah.

Note the Canaanite Mythology is as far as I can tell the inspiration or parallel to Greek Mythology.

El Shaddia - Cronus

Elyon - Zeus

Mot - Hades

Yah - Ares

Athirat - Hera

Not sure which god baal is since none of the Greek Gods decide to usurp Zesus

Note that the YHWH worshippers always hated Baal worshippers- The reason:

Baal and Yah where always at odd for El's throne!

 

Note that the bible refers to this Pantheon alot- the Elohim - Although modern translators say that this a name for God and not a pantheon.

Note that when the Elyon in Deutronomy(?) divides the Land up amongs the Elohim he gives the Jew to Yah. If you read that passage in the context of comparative religion - Zesus gaves the Jews to Ares for a people. No wonder when the Jews get to Canaan - He tells them to rape, pillage and killIf you read the christian commentary, they will tell you that El yon - God most high - is God the Father and that YHWH is Jesus. Jesus the commander of raping and pillaging. Nice imagery. I need to remember what passage it is so that I can post the english and hebrew. I'll reread the torah again and find it.

6) I love the test for a suspected cheating wife-

She is to drink dirty water and if she gets sick than she was cheating. Suspect you wife of cheating give her cholera today. Your local rabbi gives says that the lord will protect the innocent.

7) Samson and Deliah-

Samsu is the Caanite god of the Sun. (Think Apollo)

Samsu is deplicted as a god with long flowing hair. His hair is deplicted as sun rays.

Deliah name means night.

Knowing this why does every christain adamantly say that Samson was a real person. This is a parable of light versus darkness.

Thanks for listening to me rant.

 


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Welcome to the forum.

Welcome to the forum.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


quarkyphysicist
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8. Demons-I read an

8. Demons-

I read an interesting book called "Love for the Subhuman" a few years ago. It is a book that gives evidence for the supernatural creatures being inspired by deformed and mentally impaired children. In the book, the author referrenced to early 2nd century Christian leaders writing about trouble that they were having with demons. The author clearly proved to me that they were discussing feral children. If in three generations of Jesus, the church leaders belive that feral children are the demons of the bible.  This makes me wonder did Jesus and his followers held the same opinion. (If they really existed in the first place.)

 Edit: I did not remember the title of this book correctly:
I remember it being a limited print run book on comparative mythology that I found at the University of North Texas Library.


Kapkao
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Zesus?

Zesus?

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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The fact that Jesus and

The fact that Jesus and Zesus have extremely similar names does not escape me. Nor the fact that Zeus is the screwer up/savior in the Pandora myth. Although I have yet to find solid evidence that Jesus name has any direct correlation with Zesus. The names for God and the Canaanite patheon is an overwhelming amount of evidence. Since the Greek and Hebrew Mythology stem from the Canaanite myths, there could be. I need to consult some linguistical scholars.


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Note when I said the bible

Note when I said the bible says that the angels had sex with men. I mean that they had sex with the women. The way I said it, the Christian would have said that the angels were going after strange flesh. Oh wait! They said that already in Jude.

Note: the Reason for homosexuality is biological! Christians refuse to read genetics papers!

Jesus said Love your neighbor as yourself. Every Christian says that he does this. How much greater is the Love of the people that they persecute because they forgive you. I never heard of a gay committing a hate crime against their persecutors!


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For some uneducated fool who

For some uneducated fool who will say that homosexuality is not genetic. Go read the literature: Every case of twins that I have seen in the studies that are seperated at birth and raised in different house holds. The twins were both gay. If you want to counter this arguement, show me a peer review article that shows a counter example. Don't point to a fraternal twin pair. I want to see an identical twin study.


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Deuteronomy 32:8–9

Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (ESV)

8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,

when he divided mankind,

he fixed the borders of the peoples

according to the number of the sons of God.

9 But the Lord’s portion is his people,

Jacob his allotted heritage.

 

 

The Most High - Elyon - El Shaddia - El : Canaanite version of Zeus

Divided the people amongst the Sons of El - The Elohim- The Gods.

The Lord's Portion - The Name - YHWH - or canaanite Yah - Ares

 


Kapkao
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New suggestion for thread title:

RELIGION DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO STAND ON. (it does, however, have quite a bit of momentum)

 

“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)


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quarkyphysicist wrote:The

quarkyphysicist wrote:

The fact that Jesus and Zesus have extremely similar names does not escape me. Nor the fact that Zeus is the screwer up/savior in the Pandora myth. Although I have yet to find solid evidence that Jesus name has any direct correlation with Zesus. The names for God and the Canaanite patheon is an overwhelming amount of evidence. Since the Greek and Hebrew Mythology stem from the Canaanite myths, there could be. I need to consult some linguistical scholars.

You don't have to find a direct connection to myths to know they are myths. Humans didn't exist in a vacuum and multiple cultures exist at any given time in history and there wont always be evidence of overlap. How many people in your life have you met once never to meet again.

Scientology is a perfect example of a modern spin off. It uses the old icon's and some of the characters of Christianity to sell their new age garbage and it was started by fans of a science fiction writer,

I wasn't quite calling myself an atheist at the time, but my visit to the Smithsonian in DC back in the early 90s was a huge nail in the coffin of religion for me. It was a display of the Ankor Wat temples's of sandstone scuptures of Cambodia. At the beginning of the dynasty it strictly Buddhist, but around the middle of the era Hindus mingled with them and by the end of the dynasty the statues took on Hindu features.

MOTIFS in the bible are NOT NEW to the bible or Jews. Motifs such as judgment of the dead(Egyptians), ascension into heaven(Horus sits at the right hand of Osirus), Spitting in the eye to cure blindness(Horus is cured by Thot(now our modern Rx symbols). Epic of Gelgimesh(sp) has creation stories and flood stories. Code of Hamarabi(sp) has moral law including (eye for an eye)

Not to mention the names we find like El, Elohim, YHVH, BAAL ect in the Canaanite pantheon.

It isn't just a case of telling a story in a circle and having the story get back to you totally changed. It is the story being told, the circle splitting into another circle and another and another, down through generations to the point where only the MOTIFS are recognized, but the details and characters morph. After a number of generations the circles would be so far removed from each other that they lend the appearance of having no connection.

Where believers make their mistake is making details and names a false claim of originality. But cut to it's core all myths are the same. "I am the chosen people, and my super hero will swoop down and save me and vanquish the villain".

Saying that any religion is original is like saying Coke was the first beverage because it's can was red.

 

 

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Atheistextremist
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Welcome, Quarky.

 

Pleased to meet you. I've been enjoying reading you picking away at the threads of christianity's historical abiogenesis. It's clumpingly obvious to say this but as you clearly know, the christian faith has a true story, a progression from one state to another that must be traceable and must be built on the older religious beliefs and practises from which it developed. Given the stickability of the central tenets of religion and believer's eagerness to revere these things, it stands to reason that the core beliefs of modern religion, which essentially mirror those of 2000 years ago, may also mirror those of 4000 and 6000 years ago.

Discounting the silliness of theism it's interesting to think what religion tells us directly about our distant past. 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck