Call for tin foil hat myths

inspectormustard
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Call for tin foil hat myths

I'm in the process of gathering up material to investigate for a series I hope to do this year on pseudoscience. I know a couple of guys at the school who will help me out with the materials I'll need to hack together free energy machines, anti-gravity generators, and other oxymorons, but while I've got my hands on a lot of material I don't know what would be interesting.

Is there anything you guys would really like to see taken apart, torn to shreds, or whatever?

 


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Please take care to inform

Please take care to inform us about the results, when it will be done. Everyone will be curious. I personally find it suspicious that you're able to tear to shreds anything, which sounds more like you've already decided. That doesn't help your cause, there's a saying, a devil must sometimes tell the truth, otherwise nobody would believe him. How are you able to explain the simple-minded pseudoscientists their errors, so that they will understand? If 100% of your work will be simple 'no-no', then it will not be very convincing.

In the top science of today there are already very suspicious projects, where a pure fantasy (mathemathically expressed) is used to spend billions of dollars to find any evidence for it. Looks like some people have the privilege for expensive fantasies, in legal world it's called malversation. What about sweeping your own doorstep, mr. Science?

Btw, you should make a brief summary of your material, so people may pick what they like.

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Luminon wrote:Please take

Luminon wrote:
Please take care to inform us about the results, when it will be done. Everyone will be curious. I personally find it suspicious that you're able to tear to shreds anything, which sounds more like you've already decided. That doesn't help your cause, there's a saying, a devil must sometimes tell the truth, otherwise nobody would believe him. How are you able to explain the simple-minded pseudoscientists their errors, so that they will understand? If 100% of your work will be simple 'no-no', then it will not be very convincing.

Another friend of mine, who is persuing degrees in computer science, chemistry, and biology, will be helping me as an adversary. It'll be kinda like Mythbusters, only my Jaime (my friend is a big muscular guy with a foot long chin-beard) has a pseudoscience bent to him. He'll make sure everything we do gets as much attention to detail as possible. I figure we'll place some kind of bet when we start trying each thing with specific conditions for what the given machine must do in order to be considered successful. Something like "the loser will clean the other's apartment" or the like.

 

Luminon wrote:
In the top science of today there are already very suspicious projects, where a pure fantasy (mathemathically expressed) is used to spend billions of dollars to find any evidence for it. Looks like some people have the privilege for expensive fantasies, in legal world it's called malversation. What about sweeping your own doorstep, mr. Science?

I'd be glad to. Care to give an example?

Luminon wrote:
Btw, you should make a brief summary of your material, so people may pick what they like.

Right now I'm sifting through material with the help of my friend trying to find things that look interesting. Whatever we decide will be put up on http://whatphysics.fullsubject.com/, which will be a source for us to get feedback on how we tested things.

 

 


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 Quote:Is there anything

 

Quote:
Is there anything you guys would really like to see taken apart, torn to shreds, or whatever?

I don't know if this falls within the scope of your series, but I know several people who are really into the whole "New World Order" thing with the Illuminati and Free Masons.  This seems to be one of the recurring late night talk show themes.

More in line with the tech end of it, what about the whole H.A.A.R.P mind control experiment thing?

Honorable mentions for:  Remote viewing, Reverse Speech

 

 

 

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inspectormustard

inspectormustard wrote:

Another friend of mine, who is persuing degrees in computer science, chemistry, and biology, will be helping me as an adversary. It'll be kinda like Mythbusters, only my Jaime (my friend is a big muscular guy with a foot long chin-beard) has a pseudoscience bent to him. He'll make sure everything we do gets as much attention to detail as possible. I figure we'll place some kind of bet when we start trying each thing with specific conditions for what the given machine must do in order to be considered successful. Something like "the loser will clean the other's apartment" or the like.

Sounds great! There is an empty ecologic niche on Youtube, since CapnO'Awesome did... Well, I don't exactly know what he did, but it reputedly involved some porno and mental breakdown, he was banned and now he's the new Horst Fuchs, the icon of TV marketing. Be careful, please. You see, in this job it's possible to get crazy.

inspectormustard wrote:
I'd be glad to. Care to give an example?
Well, for example, the Higgs boson. I've read this little article. If it's true, then the science has no explanation for the mass of particles, and the emperor is not only a nudist, but also a flasher.
There are of course other things, like the mystery of missing neutrinos. Scientists should finally use an electric model of the sun, instead of making up a fictional neutrinos of different flavors. But a theory can't fail, when there is already built a sufficiently big edifice for it. Or should we just pray harder for the bosons and neutrinos to show up?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I've seen awesome things on my own eyes which somehow never made it to the scientific inquiry. This is one of the greatest world's mysteries, why things like wonders of alternative medicine won't get proven. 

 

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Luminon wrote:In the top

Luminon wrote:

In the top science of today there are already very suspicious projects, where a pure fantasy (mathemathically expressed) is used to spend billions of dollars to find any evidence for it. Looks like some people have the privilege for expensive fantasies, in legal world it's called malversation. What about sweeping your own doorstep, mr. Science?...

...Well, for example, the Higgs boson. I've read this little article. If it's true, then the science has no explanation for the mass of particles, and the emperor is not only a nudist, but also a flasher.

There are of course other things, like the mystery of missing neutrinos. Scientists should finally use an electric model of the sun, instead of making up a fictional neutrinos of different flavors. But a theory can't fail, when there is already built a sufficiently big edifice for it. Or should we just pray harder for the bosons and neutrinos to show up?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I've seen awesome things on my own eyes which somehow never made it to the scientific inquiry. This is one of the greatest world's mysteries, why things like wonders of alternative medicine won't get proven. 

 

I wasn't going to be abusive about this because of your known tendency to believe the crazy, but today you're bearing the brunt of my anger at people who are ignorant of science.  

Fuck Off Luminon.

The Higgs Boson isn't a mathematical fantasy.  It is the only particle from the standard model that has yet to be found.  The fact that we've found all the others gives plenty of reason to go and look for the last one.  Do you know why we're looking for the last one?  Precisely because it will make or break the model.  If the Higgs Boson is found it will be reason for celebration.  If it is not found in an experiment which should, according to all reason, produce them then we may have to rethink the standard model.  That's how science works.  Theories can fail, and they can fail hard - just ask Wilhelm Reich.

What fucktards like you don't realise is that a null answer is still an answer.  You remind me of a girl I work with (a scientist and a fundamentalist christian) who was against the LHC "because they don't even know if they'll find anything".  So what, we might be wrong so we shouldn't even bother checking?  It's lazy and defeatist and grossly ignorant.  If we never find the Higgs then it will still have been money well spent because we will have an answer.  We will have expanded, and perhaps changed forever, our understanding of how our universe works.  People like you think that if there isn't what you think of as a positive result at the end then the money has been wasted or used to line someone's pocket.  It's that sort of thinking that halts progress.

 

Listen up slapnuts the missing neutrinos were found.  Scientists did not make up fictional neutrinos.  The spent four decades the last century and the start of this carrying out painstaking and precise work to figure out what was going on.  An utter fuck-nugget like you, who has yet to show even the remotest understanding of scientific theories you use to try and support esoterics, has absolutely no right to claim that these men made anything up.  They have the evidence to show their work was not in vain.  You have nothing of value to add other than the world doesn't agree with your particular brand of crazy.  Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

 

And as a last thing - alternative medicine will never get proven because it doesn't fucking work.  The best any of these methods have ever shown is the same effectiveness as a fucking placebo effect.  There's no conspiracy here to hide the truth.  You skate close to claiming this in almost all of your post and it makes my blood boil every single time.  We've all seen amazing things with our own eyes.  Some of us just have to accept the fact that our explanation might be wrong - something you want science to do but are unwilling to do yourself.

 

For the record I won't respond to anything you have to say in response to this.  I don't want to derail yet another thread with your particular brand of ignorance.  If you'd like to continue any discussion on this set up a thread in the atheist vs theist forum and I'll see you there.   I'll leave this thread for discussion of the OP.

 

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Speaking of Wilhelm Reich

Speaking of Wilhelm Reich and the OP...

 

Anything that involves orgonite devices.  A thorough examination of those would be nice.  Luminon can tell you more I'm sure - check out the Visions that come in the form of dreams thread.

 

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MichaelMcF wrote:And as a

MichaelMcF wrote:

And as a last thing - alternative medicine will never get proven because it doesn't fucking work.   

 

If it worked... it'd just be called "medicine"


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phooney wrote:MichaelMcF

phooney wrote:

MichaelMcF wrote:

And as a last thing - alternative medicine will never get proven because it doesn't fucking work.   

If it worked... it'd just be called "medicine"

Yeah. Like using capsaicin in anasthesia.

Now that's alternative medicine you can believe in.

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Hambydammit wrote: Quote:Is

Hambydammit wrote:

 

Quote:
Is there anything you guys would really like to see taken apart, torn to shreds, or whatever?

I don't know if this falls within the scope of your series, but I know several people who are really into the whole "New World Order" thing with the Illuminati and Free Masons.  This seems to be one of the recurring late night talk show themes.

More in line with the tech end of it, what about the whole H.A.A.R.P mind control experiment thing?

Honorable mentions for:  Remote viewing, Reverse Speech

I actually knew a free mason's daughter once, checked 'em out. They remind me of the shriners a bit, or your average local old-guy frat - Moose Lodge type place. Only with more money. Kinda smelly, a little weird, but mostly harmless. I'd be worried that if I talked about them, though, people would start to point and say "HE'S ONE OF 'EM!" That's how it seems to go, haha, and I'm not sure it's worth the time unless I start running into stuff in the magic device biz like "this is the device the illuminati doesn't want you to have!" Then I might try and track some people down and show it to 'em, just to show that I can survive a consipracy theory.

H.A.A.R.P would be fun to check out. I bet they'd let me come in with a crew if I asked really nice and gave 'em my best starving college student eyes.

I could probably do reverse speech and EVP too, maybe as filler since it would be kinda tangiential, and I used to have an instructional video on remote viewing. Heck, I had a whole library of new ager books once upon a time.

Luminon wrote:
Or should we just pray harder for the bosons and neutrinos to show up?

LOL, do you know what bosons do?

MichaelMcF wrote:
Anything that involves orgonite devices.  A thorough examination of those would be nice.  Luminon can tell you more I'm sure - check out theVisions that come in the form of dreams thread

Sure, that's part of the orgone energy hoopla. I've got a few things in my research notes about it. Sounds like another "does everything" material, kinda like tachyonized stuff and "takions" (TM).

nigelTheBold wrote:

phooney wrote:

 

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

 

And as a last thing - alternative medicine will never get proven because it doesn't fucking work.   

 

 

If it worked... it'd just be called "medicine"

 

 

Yeah. Like using capsaicin in anasthesia.

Now that's alternative medicine you can believe in.

Wow, now I can have hot sauce injected as an analgesic? Sign me up!


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Hambydammit wrote: More in

Hambydammit wrote:
 

More in line with the tech end of it, what about the whole H.A.A.R.P mind control experiment thing?

Mind control? I thought that's a weather control project. (and perhaps a cause of great droughts in North Korea) Maybe I think that because my mind is controlled by HAARP, yes, that would give sense... Smiling
 

inspectormustard wrote:
Luminon wrote:

Or should we just pray harder for the bosons and neutrinos to show up?

LOL, do you know what bosons do?

I meant Higgs bosons. (but I was lazy to write the Higgs word) Other bosons are common. 

 

 

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 Quote:Mind control? I

 

Quote:
Mind control? I thought that's a weather control project. (and perhaps a cause of great droughts in North Korea) Maybe I think that because my mind is controlled by HAARP, yes, that would give sense... Smiling

Maybe you're right.  I have a hard time keeping my conspiracy theories straight.  I know I've heard of H.A.A.R.P being used as a weapon, but I could have sworn the I remember way back in the Art Bell days, somebody was saying that all that energy could be used to broadcast some kind of electro-thermal doo-hickey magic wave that would set up "resonances" in people's brains, and make them less aggressive, more aggressive... whatever.  So, if you're about to go to war, you throw a switch and everybody in the country gets mad and volunteers for the army.  That kind of thing.

 

 

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Hambydammit wrote:Maybe

Hambydammit wrote:

Maybe you're right.  I have a hard time keeping my conspiracy theories straight.  I know I've heard of H.A.A.R.P being used as a weapon, but I could have sworn the I remember way back in the Art Bell days, somebody was saying that all that energy could be used to broadcast some kind of electro-thermal doo-hickey magic wave that would set up "resonances" in people's brains, and make them less aggressive, more aggressive... whatever.  So, if you're about to go to war, you throw a switch and everybody in the country gets mad and volunteers for the army.  That kind of thing.

Alaska has many of the HAARP sites. Although some fringe groups consider them to be mind-control weapons, in reality, they are built specifically to control the weather. Mind control is strictly a secondary effect.

Studying the aurora is completely ludicrous.

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nigelTheBold

nigelTheBold wrote:

Hambydammit wrote:

Maybe you're right.  I have a hard time keeping my conspiracy theories straight.  I know I've heard of H.A.A.R.P being used as a weapon, but I could have sworn the I remember way back in the Art Bell days, somebody was saying that all that energy could be used to broadcast some kind of electro-thermal doo-hickey magic wave that would set up "resonances" in people's brains, and make them less aggressive, more aggressive... whatever.  So, if you're about to go to war, you throw a switch and everybody in the country gets mad and volunteers for the army.  That kind of thing.

Alaska has many of the HAARP sites. Although some fringe groups consider them to be mind-control weapons, in reality, they are built specifically to control the weather. Mind control is strictly a secondary effect.

Studying the aurora is completely ludicrous.

Don't forget the EMP stuff. It's supposed to be able to disable electronics anywhere in the world! And it's fueled by old people, which is why Obama wants to reform healthcare!

 

Okay, that might've been too far.


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inspectormustard wrote:

 

H.A.A.R.P would be fun to check out. I bet they'd let me come in with a crew if I asked really nice and gave 'em my best starving college student eyes.

 

Well, I think you should take the opportunity to attend the upcoming open-house at H.A.A.R.P.

 

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

 

They have not announced the date just yet but it is supposed to be at the end of the summer, which is soon.

 

I would not know about a camera crew getting on site though.  Certainly, given the looney factor that surrounds the place, I can see that some of the scientists might not want recognizable images of themselves on a web site.

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MichaelMcF wrote: Listen up

MichaelMcF wrote:
Listen up slapnuts the missing neutrinos were found.  Scientists did not make up fictional neutrinos.  The spent four decades the last century and the start of this carrying out painstaking and precise work to figure out what was going on.  An utter fuck-nugget like you, who has yet to show even the remotest understanding of scientific theories you use to try and support esoterics, has absolutely no right to claim that these men made anything up.  They have the evidence to show their work was not in vain.  You have nothing of value to add other than the world doesn't agree with your particular brand of crazy.  Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
Wow, you remind me of some teachers. So the neutrinos were really found, (though my sources are doubtful about the quality of experiments) and---

MichaelMcF wrote:

The Higgs Boson isn't a mathematical fantasy.  It is the only particle from the standard model that has yet to be found.  The fact that we've found all the others gives plenty of reason to go and look for the last one.  Do you know why we're looking for the last one?  Precisely because it will make or break the model.  If the Higgs Boson is found it will be reason for celebration.  If it is not found in an experiment which should, according to all reason, produce them then we may have to rethink the standard model.  That's how science works.  Theories can fail, and they can fail hard - just ask Wilhelm Reich.

---were found to actually have a mass. Which even more diminishes the already small family of massless particles. Only gluons and photons now remain. As far as I know, neither have any mass-giving properties. (except in e. theory) There are two questions now - if Higgs boson does have a mass, how does it have a mass? Should we build even bigger particle accelerator to find the real mass-giving particles within it? And if Higgs boson is massless, then how a massless particle can create the mass? I mean, outside of the paper universe.
This touches some touchy questions, like WHAT exactly is the mass, gravity, electric charge, or vacuum. I mean, DEFINITION instead of description of their properties. I suspect that describing something we don't know is the last resort from admitting that we don't know it. And when we don't know, it's time to consider alternative explanations.
 

MichaelMcF wrote:
What fucktards like you don't realise is that a null answer is still an answer.  You remind me of a girl I work with (a scientist and a fundamentalist christian) who was against the LHC "because they don't even know if they'll find anything".  So what, we might be wrong so we shouldn't even bother checking?  It's lazy and defeatist and grossly ignorant.  If we never find the Higgs then it will still have been money well spent because we will have an answer.  We will have expanded, and perhaps changed forever, our understanding of how our universe works.  People like you think that if there isn't what you think of as a positive result at the end then the money has been wasted or used to line someone's pocket.  It's that sort of thinking that halts progress.
I meant it differently. Did you ever realize, that there are alternative hypotheses? How do you know that the hypotheses being tested are the only worthy ones? The electric sun hypothesis is an example.

MichaelMcF wrote:
  And as a last thing - alternative medicine will never get proven because it doesn't fucking work.  The best any of these methods have ever shown is the same effectiveness as a fucking placebo effect.  There's no conspiracy here to hide the truth.  You skate close to claiming this in almost all of your post and it makes my blood boil every single time.  We've all seen amazing things with our own eyes.  Some of us just have to accept the fact that our explanation might be wrong - something you want science to do but are unwilling to do yourself.
I have seen that alternative medicine works. Nothing, perhaps except of a big stone, can erase that from my memory.
As for the placebo effect, it doubtlessly exists. Strictly speaking, placebo effect may be described as a positive affection of nerve, endocrine and immunity systems. And if the alternative medicine has a power to produce it's beneficial presence regardless of psychologic factors, then it fuckin' works. This is of course not everything. I have done a personal tests by myself, like comparison of a laboratory blood test to testing by EAV device. Guess what? EAV was much more precise, immediate, and cheaper. I have seen my allergic reaction (swollen eye) to cease within a minute after a few acupuncture needles was placed around it. And many other things. I can be wrong in my assumptions, but not in my observations, these are confirmed by tenths and hundreds of my fellow users of alternative medicine. I have seen so much of evidence for the alternative medicine, that there is the only logical conclusion. Something is wrong with the tests. I have no idea what, I just make a logical assumption.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
For the record I won't respond to anything you have to say in response to this.  I don't want to derail yet another thread with your particular brand of ignorance.  If you'd like to continue any discussion on this set up a thread in the atheist vs theist forum and I'll see you there.   I'll leave this thread for discussion of the OP. 

All right, nobody has to respond to this as well. Only me, since you expected a response. Too bad you won't respond, at least I can boil your blood a little more with some curious philosophy. Thanks for giving me the last word.
here is the scientific evidence you mentioned? I'll tell you, it is somewhere far away in a place I've never seen, made by people I've never heard of, with use of complex machinery which I don't understand. I can only believe it is there. So your whole arrogance is based on something you can't prove. This is a fundamental philosophic problem with contemporary science. I know, it is very impertinent to say that, but it is true. The technology we use every day is a product of engineering and does not have much in common with theoretical physics, it works even with mere basic models of atom. The top science became non-transparent and therefore suspicious to outsiders. It is accused of being sometimes in dissent with common sense. There are alternative hypotheses about the universe, easier to be understood by common sense. Thus, they are potentially much more likely to be succesful among people(!)

Therefore, you should take a realistic approach when dealing with alternative opinions. The wonders of science have brought you into a historically unique social situation, where you can't prove anything, just like the other side, because the other side is on the other side of the planet. This technological wonder has a small glitch - it lets only claims through. Whatever you claim, is a claim. Therefore, you should understand that there is a danger of position warfare, if we won't take each other's claims seriously. Stop presuming, that your authority will do the job for you. This machine lets only claims through. Only a mutual respect will ensure that the message will be more than a mere claim. And the respect must be earned. I don't say that I'm good at earning respect, but you're not even trying, quite oppositely, you know, all the fuck words and so on. Take it easy. There are millions of people being killed and you can still sleep, so why don't you take it easy as well? Remember, you represent the Science! This isn't a Holy Inquisition and judgement of heretics - or I guess you want it to look like it isn't.

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Luminon wrote:Thanks for

Luminon wrote:

Thanks for giving me the last word.

 

Far from it.  

 

If you recall I was happy for you to set up another thread so that we could continue conversation and leave other threads in peace.  As you've chosen not to do that, I've decided to do so.  You can find it here.  I'll put a rebuttal to your comments there and we can see where it goes.

 

 

 

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MichaelMcF wrote:Luminon

MichaelMcF wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Thanks for giving me the last word.

Far from it.  

If you recall I was happy for you to set up another thread so that we could continue conversation and leave other threads in peace.  As you've chosen not to do that, I've decided to do so.  You can find it here.  I'll put a rebuttal to your comments there and we can see where it goes.

Thanks Michael.

I think I've found what we'll be taking on for the first episode, but I could still use suggestions.

Someone on the League Of Reason forums pointed this thing out to me called the IonCleanse. You can find stuff about it on YouTube. By all appearances, it does do something, since the electrolyte one submerges their feet in turns brown after a whike, but at the same time it seems kinda dangerous. We're going to try and get ahold of one of these things and try it on a volunteer with clean feet, then have the electrolyte tested (either we or the hospital - we have access to a lab and Jeb is a chemical-scientist-in-training) to see what that brown crap is and where it came from. And no, I don't buy the line "well, it's toxins from your body!!!" What toxins? Biliruben? Urea? Urochrome? Those are the only normal things I know that make that much water turn that color.


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inspectormustard wrote:I

inspectormustard wrote:

I think I've found what we'll be taking on for the first episode, but I could still use suggestions.

Someone on the League Of Reason forums pointed this thing out to me called the IonCleanse. You can find stuff about it on YouTube. By all appearances, it does do something, since the electrolyte one submerges their feet in turns brown after a whike, but at the same time it seems kinda dangerous. We're going to try and get ahold of one of these things and try it on a volunteer with clean feet, then have the electrolyte tested (either we or the hospital - we have access to a lab and Jeb is a chemical-scientist-in-training) to see what that brown crap is and where it came from. And no, I don't buy the line "well, it's toxins from your body!!!" What toxins? Biliruben? Urea? Urochrome? Those are the only normal things I know that make that much water turn that color.

 

Hey inspectormustard, I'm pretty sure that I've seen this before.

If I remember correctly there's nothing more complicated in this than a simple bit of electrolysis.  All you need is the ion electrode they supply and anything else to complete the current.  The manufacturers assume an individual but you could do it with anything.  Once the current is switched on you get electrolysis happening the electrode begins to dump iron ions (maybe iron oxides, been a while since I touched electrochemistry) into the water.  That's why you see brown crap and that's why their probe/electrode/whatever they're calling it needs replaced every once in a while.

 

I could be making this up but I swear I've seen it.  I'll try and track down the info I'm thinking of.

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Has anyone mentioned ghosts?

Has anyone mentioned ghosts? There are a lot of people who thinks there's a science there. UFO's..."naturalistic" "medicine"...

After twelve days that's the best I could come up with that hasn't been mentioned (though the "medicine" was mentioned, it was in a derailment and not as a suggestion).

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 Dammit.... that should

 Dammit.... that should read "iron electrode" not "ion electrode"


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inspectormustard

inspectormustard wrote:

Thanks Michael.

I think I've found what we'll be taking on for the first episode, but I could still use suggestions.

Someone on the League Of Reason forums pointed this thing out to me called the IonCleanse. You can find stuff about it on YouTube. By all appearances, it does do something, since the electrolyte one submerges their feet in turns brown after a whike, but at the same time it seems kinda dangerous. We're going to try and get ahold of one of these things and try it on a volunteer with clean feet, then have the electrolyte tested (either we or the hospital - we have access to a lab and Jeb is a chemical-scientist-in-training) to see what that brown crap is and where it came from. And no, I don't buy the line "well, it's toxins from your body!!!" What toxins? Biliruben? Urea? Urochrome? Those are the only normal things I know that make that much water turn that color.

 

Well, if there is an optical test that you can perform for bilirubin, I might stake you guys to a flight to the Chezc Republic but only if you are willing to shine in in Luminon's eyes to see if that is what causes the brown color.

 

/rimshot

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