Visions that come in the form of dreams...

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Visions that come in the form of dreams...

Um... Isn't that what a dream is? I'm begining to wonder if I might be a prophet since I have "visions" on a nightly basis. Just the other night I had this vision that I was getting busy with Sara the hot bartender. Well, who am I to question these visions that are bestowed upon me? So the next time I saw her, I asked her out. Could you believe that she actually denied my advances. If it were any other time I would simply accept the rejection as is and move on, but we're dealing with prophecy here and I'm obviously being tested so I will continue to pursue this quest regardless of the restraining order! I may end up spending a few nights in jail as a result, but that only means that I would have plenty of time during my persecution to write a book telling everyone how to live their life.

Who's with me?


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I dont think the world can

I dont think the world can handle, Doomy pursuing his dreams...


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Majority of dreams takes

Majority of dreams takes place in astral realm. The dream realm is characteristic by it's total plasticity and responsivity. It locally shapes itself according to people's wishes, desires or fears.
Therefore, you should understand, that astral visions and prophecies are plentiful and there's nothing special about them, quite oppositely, it's a kind of junk. It's just a manifestation of your desires, or someone else's. We all have astral dreams, but of course, not everyone have hot bartenders to dream about.
However, you can still try it on her, that you keep dreaming about her. Maybe it will sound romantically.

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D:

Luminon wrote:

Majority of dreams takes place in astral realm. The dream realm is characteristic by it's total plasticity and responsivity. It locally shapes itself according to people's wishes, desires or fears.
Therefore, you should understand, that astral visions and prophecies are plentiful and there's nothing special about them, quite oppositely, it's a kind of junk. It's just a manifestation of your desires, or someone else's. We all have astral dreams, but of course, not everyone have hot bartenders to dream about.
However, you can still try it on her, that you keep dreaming about her. Maybe it will sound romantically.

 

Wow.

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Ivon wrote:Um... Isn't that

Ivon wrote:

Um... Isn't that what a dream is? I'm begining to wonder if I might be a prophet since I have "visions" on a nightly basis. Just the other night I had this vision that I was getting busy with Sara the hot bartender. Well, who am I to question these visions that are bestowed upon me? So the next time I saw her, I asked her out. Could you believe that she actually denied my advances. If it were any other time I would simply accept the rejection as is and move on, but we're dealing with prophecy here and I'm obviously being tested so I will continue to pursue this quest regardless of the restraining order! I may end up spending a few nights in jail as a result, but that only means that I would have plenty of time during my persecution to write a book telling everyone how to live their life.

Who's with me?

Although I'm not "with you", I think you would very much enjoy reading "Memories, Dreams and Reflections", by Carl Jung. Although I'm not a Jungian, I found it to be one of the best books I read when I was in college, and have recommended it as interesting reading on more than one occasion on this Board.


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I don't know about the

I don't know about the whole prophecy idea. Don't get me wrong, I dream about hot babes all the time, it's just that the dreams are never sexual.

 

For example, the last one that I can remember currently was a girl that I work with. In the dream, we were both spies and we had been sent by our nation to keep an eye on a ship. As long as it stayed where it was, we were to do nothing but if it left port we had to head away from the area and report in. If it took on some relevant cargo (and we were not told what that would be, only what we would see if the bad thing went on board), then we were to detonate mines that navy seals had placed on the hull under the water line previously.

 

>>>>>>>>>>

 

So Luminon, since you seem to know about this stuff, does that tell you anything about me? If so, what would that be?

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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

So Luminon, since you seem to know about this stuff, does that tell you anything about me? If so, what would that be?

 

Well, it doesn't say anything. People do such activities in astral realm all the time. It's a kind of playing, learning, quests, or something like that. It's practically a second life. Some people attend schools in astral realm, and even pass exams there. (or fail) I personally often have dreams about various tasks, like finding someone or something, escorting someone to another place, exploration, or advices to people. Such a dreams doesn't say anything specific about you. (unless you're a fan of Tom Clancy)


 

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Fair enough.   I

Fair enough.

 

I remember 28 years ago, I was on the verge of graduating high school. I had a dream that I died and got to the entrance to heaven. However, before I could get in, I had to take a final exam on my life.

 

So the question that comes to mind is: Just what value shall we place on our dreams?

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Luminon wrote:Answers in

Luminon wrote:

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

So Luminon, since you seem to know about this stuff, does that tell you anything about me? If so, what would that be?

 

Well, it doesn't say anything. People do such activities in astral realm all the time. It's a kind of playing, learning, quests, or something like that. It's practically a second life. Some people attend schools in astral realm, and even pass exams there. (or fail) I personally often have dreams about various tasks, like finding someone or something, escorting someone to another place, exploration, or advices to people. Such a dreams doesn't say anything specific about you. (unless you're a fan of Tom Clancy)

Prove an 'astral realm' exists.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Answers in Gene Simmons

Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:
So the question that comes to mind is: Just what value shall we place on our dreams?

That's simple. If the dream is symbolic, then interpret it according to it's symbols. For example, house usually means your own body, cellar of that house may mean your subconsciousness, and so on. It needs a lot of intuition to interpret. My dad is good at interpreting dreams. If you manage to interpret the symbols, then compare them to your life, and place the importance according to it. The symbols can be critical, like, "the train which you want to take next week is going to crash and kill you", or non-critical, like "keep up the good work, man."

Otherwise, if the dream is not symbolic, if it looks like a routine activities in the dreamworld, you can ignore it. Vast majority of dreams is just like that.



Answers in Gene Simmons wrote:

Fair enough.

 

I remember 28 years ago, I was on the verge of graduating high school. I had a dream that I died and got to the entrance to heaven. However, before I could get in, I had to take a final exam on my life.

That sounds like 5th astral sub-realm. This is a "heaven" of people who know better than everyone else what a perfect heaven should look like. Deceased of every faith there designed a scripturally authentic (thus very kitshy) heaven for themselves. There are also various edifying and upbringing institutions, created by people, who think that they know better, how other people should behave. Eventually, they get bored and go into higher realms, but their thoughtforms left behind are a hospitable place for the newcomers of this religional and edifying type. No wonder that they didn't let you through the gate Smiling

 

aiia wrote:

Prove an 'astral realm' exists.

How, without a damn good technology? Scientists haven't even discovered the etheric half of dense-physical realm, yet. Reputedly, neutrino light is astral light. But astral technology would have to manage extremely small wavelengths and high frequencies. In rare cases, communication from astral realm may get caught on tape recorders or radio receivers, but these are rather coincidences.
You could be perhaps interested in the research of spiritists in 19th and early 20th century. They were quite succesful in contacting astral realm. This is not what we do here, on the contrary, we try to build our own resistance to the astral influences, so I won't elaborate much on it. The correct approach to astrality is through science, technology and higher realms, any other approach puts people into disadvantage.


Reiki healing technique and Tesla's "tachyonic" tablets take their energy from some higher astral level, probably 6th. I'd gladly post the link on the tablets' homepage, but it's a bit obscure website in German language from the Swiss manufacturer.

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Luminon wrote:aiia

Luminon wrote:

aiia wrote:

Prove an 'astral realm' exists.

How, without a damn good technology? Scientists haven't even discovered the etheric half of dense-physical realm, yet. Reputedly, neutrino light is astral light. But astral technology would have to manage extremely small wavelengths and high frequencies. In rare cases, communication from astral realm may get caught on tape recorders or radio receivers, but these are rather coincidences.
You could be perhaps interested in the research of spiritists in 19th and early 20th century. They were quite succesful in contacting astral realm. This is not what we do here, on the contrary, we try to build our own resistance to the astral influences, so I won't elaborate much on it. The correct approach to astrality is through science, technology and higher realms, any other approach puts people into disadvantage.

 

Reiki healing technique and Tesla's "tachyonic" tablets take their energy from some higher astral level, probably 6th. I'd gladly post the link on the tablets' homepage, but it's a bit obscure website in German language from the Swiss manufacturer.

Sweet Jesus on a pogo-stick.

So science could investigate the various numbered astral plains with the right technology, even though the technology to do so doesn't exist yet.

Luminon, I sell a very high quality tiger repellent.  Just in case you need some.

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:Luminon,

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

Luminon, I sell a very high quality tiger repellent.  Just in case you need some.

Ah? Lummy doesnt want a chain-gun... me on the other hand, I'LL TAKE IT!

 

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Luminon wrote:Scientists

Luminon wrote:

Scientists haven't even discovered the etheric half of dense-physical realm, yet.

 

"Haven't diacovered" or "choose not to waste time on what isn't"?

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The Doomed Soul

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:

Luminon, I sell a very high quality tiger repellent.  Just in case you need some.

Ah? Lummy doesnt want a chain-gun... me on the other hand, I'LL TAKE IT!

 

Doomy, by the time the chain gun sped up, that tiger would be on you.  I'd recommend something more manageable.  A Holland and Holland in .375, maybe.

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:The

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

The Doomed Soul wrote:

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

Luminon, I sell a very high quality tiger repellent.  Just in case you need some.

Ah? Lummy doesnt want a chain-gun... me on the other hand, I'LL TAKE IT!

 

Doomy, by the time the chain gun sped up, that tiger would be on you.  I'd recommend something more manageable.  A Holland and Holland in .375, maybe.

 

Pfff... thats just improper use of the chaingun as a repellent

 

You're supposed to be shooting the chain-gun before you even leave the house! ... not wait till you see the tiger, its the equivalent to eating the bear mace to avoid being a tasty meal instead of spraying it in the bears face while he eats you!!

 

... that sounded alot more sensible in my head...

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DamnDirtyApe wrote:Sweet

DamnDirtyApe wrote:

Sweet Jesus on a pogo-stick.

So science could investigate the various numbered astral plains with the right technology, even though the technology to do so doesn't exist yet.

Luminon, I sell a very high quality tiger repellent.  Just in case you need some.

Are you interested, or do you just want to be right? I demonstrate a different look on the physical nature of universe, potentially compatible and comparable with scientific. No offense, but I'd rather demonstrate that to someone who cares about the subject and can ask sensible questions about the subject.
Btw, I'd appreciate the spray, if it also works on domestic cats.

jcgadfly wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Scientists haven't even discovered the etheric half of dense-physical realm, yet.

"Haven't diacovered" or "choose not to waste time on what isn't"?

Better said, they discovered some space radiation and rare particles (like antimatter), which are etheric, but that's not the whole image yet. An example of etheric technology are Wilhelm Reich's cloudbusters, orgone batteries, and so on. I also suspect that free energy generators also belong to that list. I have studied their function and I'm nearly sure about it.


 

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Luminon wrote:Better said,

Luminon wrote:

Better said, they discovered some space radiation and rare particles (like antimatter), which are etheric, but that's not the whole image yet. An example of etheric technology are Wilhelm Reich's cloudbusters, orgone batteries, and so on. I also suspect that free energy generators also belong to that list. I have studied their function and I'm nearly sure about it.

 

The cloudbusters?  Orgone batteries? 

So etheric materials and technologies can be defined thus:  an object or theory based on speculative ideas which are not supported by evidence and have no basis on fact.

 

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I'm sorry to hijack the

I'm sorry to hijack the discussion, it should be about the astral world of dreams, which is for an octave higher in vibration. As for this, (I almost forgot) I have to say that it is advisable to pay attention to repeated or returning dreams.

MichaelMcF wrote:


The cloudbusters?  Orgone batteries? 

So etheric materials and technologies can be defined thus:  an object or theory based on speculative ideas which are not supported by evidence and have no basis on fact.

 

Please, stop that, it's silly. If you didn't notice, I count to the etheric realm also the antimatter, and the newly discovered space radiation. My information is, that this space radiation, six times stronger than scientists expected it to be, is most probably identic with the 'orgone' of Wilhelm Reich. But now someone else has the credit.
My information is, that ether does exist according to certain scientific experiments. The Michelson-Morley experiment was deeply flawed. The Silvertooth experiment got it right. A similar mechanism was already made in 1913, in Sagnac experiment. This effect is so useful, that till this day it's used in airplane traffic to show the plane's movement.
Also, I have read some underground science articles who use your definition to dismiss things like theory of relativity or big bang theory. They would all deeply insult in what you believe.

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Luminon wrote:Please, stop

Luminon wrote:

Please, stop that, it's silly. If you didn't notice, I count to the etheric realm also the antimatter...

Yes, and I ignored it because anti-matter is a feature of the physical world and nothing to do with the "ether".

 

Luminon wrote:

and the newly discovered space radiation. My information is, that this space radiation, six times stronger than scientists expected it to be, is most probably identic with the 'orgone' of Wilhelm Reich. But now someone else has the credit.
My information is, that ether does exist according to certain scientific experiments. The Michelson-Morley experiment was deeply flawed. The Silvertooth experiment got it right. A similar mechanism was already made in 1913, in Sagnac experiment. This effect is so useful, that till this day it's used in airplane traffic to show the plane's movement.
Also, I have read some underground science articles who use your definition to dismiss things like theory of relativity or big bang theory. They would all deeply insult in what you believe.

It's identic with orgone?  Orgone being the all-prevading life-force tied deeply into Riech's beliefs as well as holding a similar position to Freuds ideas of sexual urge being the driving force of all life? That orgone?  You're equating this with a new "space radiation" (please clarify this - provide a link to what you're talking about) so the all-pervasive driving force for life only exists in space?  Interesting.

And please explain how the Michelson-Morley experiment was deeply flawed, and so so in a manner that wouldn't make a physicist laugh.

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MichaelMcF wrote:Orgone

MichaelMcF wrote:

Orgone being the all-prevading life-force tied deeply into Riech's beliefs as well as holding a similar position to Freuds ideas of sexual urge being the driving force of all life? That orgone?  You're equating this with a new "space radiation" (please clarify this - provide a link to what you're talking about) so the all-pervasive driving force for life only exists in space?

wait... did we just jump from sex, to space radiation, to space sex? ... or even space sex radiation?

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:O

Does sunblock shield you from the space sex radiation? What will too much exposure do?


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ClockCat wrote:Does sunblock

ClockCat wrote:

Does sunblock shield you from the space sex radiation? What will too much exposure do?

You have to wear a lead condom.

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MichaelMcF wrote:Yes, and I

MichaelMcF wrote:

Yes, and I ignored it because anti-matter is a feature of the physical world and nothing to do with the "ether".

But etheric matter is physical. There are four states of etheric matter, less dense than gas, but still physical. They're called chemical, vital, light and reflexive ethers.

MichaelMcF wrote:

It's identic with orgone?  Orgone being the all-prevading life-force tied deeply into Riech's beliefs as well as holding a similar position to Freuds ideas of sexual urge being the driving force of all life? That orgone?  You're equating this with a new "space radiation" (please clarify this - provide a link to what you're talking about) so the all-pervasive driving force for life only exists in space?  Interesting.

Orgone, as a part of what our etheric body must work with, is naturally a part of life, though I doubt very much that it belongs to sexuality. It was identified as belonging to the two higher ethers, thus participating rather on visual and memory functions. Also, the technical use of it, to eliminate the clouds (as documented by plentiful Youtube videos) has nothing to do with sexuality. I don't know from where mr. Reich got that, but it's probably over-emphasized by critics.
The equation of orgone with the new space radiation was done by British editor, writer, artist and futurologist Ben Creme, who also tested the orgone batteries by himself, together with tetrahedron, which is another interesting device.


MichaelMcF wrote:
And please explain how the Michelson-Morley experiment was deeply flawed, and so so in a manner that wouldn't make a physicist laugh.

The phase angle of vertical waves was dependent on the used mirrors, which had an effect on the indication of movement through space. The beam got phase-locked between the mirrors.

The Silvertooth device avoided this problem and basically reproduces the Sagnac effect, which is obviously a fact.

The MM experiment also neglected Snell's law. It was done in air, not in vacuum. In vaccum the speed of light is c, in air it's c/n. However, for MMX it was taken as c, and thus it neglected the effect of light refraction in air, not even in equations. As such, the experiment was badly described.

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Luminon wrote:But etheric

Luminon wrote:

But etheric matter is physical. There are four states of etheric matter, less dense than gas, but still physical. They're called chemical, vital, light and reflexive ethers.

Then prove it.  If they're physical there must be a way to test for them.  Tell me what it is so that I might try it for myself.

 

Luminon wrote:

Orgone, as a part of what our etheric body must work with, is naturally a part of life, though I doubt very much that it belongs to sexuality. It was identified as belonging to the two higher ethers, thus participating rather on visual and memory functions. Also, the technical use of it, to eliminate the clouds (as documented by plentiful Youtube videos) has nothing to do with sexuality. I don't know from where mr. Reich got that, but it's probably over-emphasized by critics.

Wikipedia wrote:

Orgone was closely associated with sexuality: Reich, following Freud, saw nascent sexuality as the primary energetic force of life. The term itself was chosen to share a root with the word orgasm, which both Reich and Freud took to be a fundamental expression of psychological health. This focus on sexuality, while acceptable in the clinical perspective of Viennese psychoanalytic circles, scandalized the conservative American public even as it appealed to countercultural figures like William S. Burroughs and Jack Kerouac.

I'm not saying that Wikipedia is an outstanding academic resource, but the comments on orgone hardly seem critical.  The article reads quite objectively actually.  And I wasn't saying it was all about sex.  Reich saw it as an omni-present force - but the theory had its beginnings in what he understood to be libido.

 

I've had a look at those videos.  They don't prove anything other than some pointed an "orgonite" device at the sky on a clear day.  There's absolutely no evidence that the device is responsible for that clear sky.  Not only that but they admit that time-lapse imagery is used so the disappearing vapour trails from the planes are more likely to be completely natural.  It's a pretty clear sky in Glasgow today.  I could go out and make that same video by pointing my hand, my foot, or the can of deodorant at my side at the sky and get the same result.  It wouldn't mean anything.


Luminon wrote:

The equation of orgone with the new space radiation was done by British editor, writer, artist and futurologist Ben Creme, who also tested the orgone batteries by himself, together with tetrahedron, which is another interesting device.

Could you point me towards these equations?  Is there a link somewhere?  You still haven't explained what this space radiation is and I'm becoming highly skeptical - though willing to be convinced with evidence - now that you've mentioned one Benjamin Creme.  The same Ben Creme that heard in 1959 that the Christ would appear 20 years later?  Making it 1979?  And then told the world that the Christ would appear in 1982, and when he didn't it was because "the time wasn't right"?  Of course.  And when Uri Geller can't bend spoons under test it's because the "energies" aren't right.

Benjamin Creme is not a good man to reference when it comes to scientific theories.  I was born in Glasgow too.  I know the special breed of lunatic that comes out of this city.


Luminon wrote:

The phase angle of vertical waves was dependent on the used mirrors, which had an effect on the indication of movement through space. The beam got phase-locked between the mirrors.

The Silvertooth device avoided this problem and basically reproduces the Sagnac effect, which is obviously a fact.

The MM experiment also neglected Snell's law. It was done in air, not in vacuum. In vaccum the speed of light is c, in air it's c/n. However, for MMX it was taken as c, and thus it neglected the effect of light refraction in air, not even in equations. As such, the experiment was badly described.

 

Oh, I'm sorry, I must not have been clear.  I said I wanted an explanation of the experiment's flaws that wouldn't make a physicist laugh.

1.  Silvertooth's work has been shown repeatedly to be highly questionable.  He matched his data to observe anisotropies in the CMB to show that the aether was present... except these anisotropies are easily explained using the standard models of cosmology.

2.  The difference between the speed of light in vacuum and in atmosphere is negligible - air/vacuum value is 0.9997 if I remember correctly.  If the angle of incidence in vacuum was 45o the angle of incidence in atmosphere would be 44.83o. In other words it can be ignored.

3.  The value for refraction would only matter if the light was travelling from vacuum to atmosphere at any point during the experiment.  It wasn't so your point is... well... pointless.

4.  The Michelson-Morley experiment has been repeated many many times, using far more advanced equipment and much greater understanding of physics than either man was fortunate enough to have.  Guess what?  Still no ether.

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MichaelMcF wrote:Then prove

MichaelMcF wrote:

Then prove it.  If they're physical there must be a way to test for them.  Tell me what it is so that I might try it for myself.

 

The easiest way I know is Transmission Meditation, it makes people feel the etheric energy on their own body. Sooner or later, for some people immediately, sometimes after a couple of years of attending the meditation. In my case, I always had that kind of sensitivity.
At least 3 people would be the better, but we received a positive feedback also from individuals and couples.

However, to that meditation also may belong a device called Tetrahedron. People receive the energies and step it down. Tetrahedron steps them down even more. Within, it contains silver and gold discs, crystal and magnet. From each disc there leads a silver and gold wire, which the meditating men and women hold. An colleague of our local club had been in Belgium for a meditation with the tetrahedron. She held the wire, and it became so hot by the flowing energy, that she had a red lines on her hands for several days.
 

MichaelMcF wrote:

I'm not saying that Wikipedia is an outstanding academic resource, but the comments on orgone hardly seem critical.  The article reads quite objectively actually.  And I wasn't saying it was all about sex.  Reich saw it as an omni-present force - but the theory had its beginnings in what he understood to be libido.

All right. Sexual activity is one of the greatest stimulators of vital energy, (Tantra yoga, for example) but it's far from technology. Maybe this is how the research started, but in my opinion, it's overemphasized.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
I've had a look at those videos.  They don't prove anything other than some pointed an "orgonite" device at the sky on a clear day.  There's absolutely no evidence that the device is responsible for that clear sky.  Not only that but they admit that time-lapse imagery is used so the disappearing vapour trails from the planes are more likely to be completely natural.  It's a pretty clear sky in Glasgow today.  I could go out and make that same video by pointing my hand, my foot, or the can of deodorant at my side at the sky and get the same result.  It wouldn't mean anything.
As for the planes, I usually see a trails which cross all the sky from horizon to horizon, even if the plane is long gone. I haven't ever seen them disappearing so quickly behind the plane, as it is in that video.
 

MichaelMcF wrote:

Could you point me towards these equations?  Is there a link somewhere?  You still haven't explained what this space radiation is and I'm becoming highly skeptical - though willing to be convinced with evidence - now that you've mentioned one Benjamin Creme.  The same Ben Creme that heard in 1959 that the Christ would appear 20 years later?  Making it 1979?  And then told the world that the Christ would appear in 1982, and when he didn't it was because "the time wasn't right"?  Of course.  And when Uri Geller can't bend spoons under test it's because the "energies" aren't right.

Benjamin Creme is not a good man to reference when it comes to scientific theories.  I was born in Glasgow too.  I know the special breed of lunatic that comes out of this city.


(the "equating" was meant as "saying this is that", not as a mathemathical equation)
This space radiation was discovered last year by the american astronomers from the ARCADE project, at NASA center in Texas. It is an electromagnetic radiation, radio waves, better said. It is an electromagnetic "noise", which had not been identified with any known source.

As for the Teacher, there are thousands of reports from the world of people who had met him, there are photographs, news reports, and also previously unimaginable plethora of various symbollic signs, both religional and non-religional. There are also appeared many healing water springs. A water from them is said to have a special physical properties - it is somewhat lighter than a normal water. And it is not nearly everything. Creme says, that there is one cause behind this all. Of course, most of these signs are designed to impress the poor world's majority, not us, well-fed, cynical caucasians. Most of these events are of course not even scientifically studied, because this kind of attention among people is very unwanted.

As for the public appearing of the Teacher, it's not as easy, as you imagine. In fact, it's unimaginably diffcult. Tthe resistance is fierce and persistent. Opportunity after opportunity went in vain, because of a synchronized counteractions of the opposing side. For example, the 1982 was a great opportunity, but at the same moment, the Falkland war of Argentina and USA started. In that situation, public response would have been negative to the Teacher's arrival. There is a counteraction to everything he does.
However, there is a great hope placed in the upcoming financial crisis. A worldwide crash of this unfair pyramid lottery called "global economy" expected in 2009 is the most promising future opportunity I know of.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
  Oh, I'm sorry, I must not have been clear.  I said I wanted an explanation of the experiment's flaws that wouldn't make a physicist laugh.

1.  Silvertooth's work has been shown repeatedly to be highly questionable.  He matched his data to observe anisotropies in the CMB to show that the aether was present... except these anisotropies are easily explained using the standard models of cosmology.

Silvertooth's work is repeated in every device employing the Sagnac effect, yet nobody notices that. What are the standard cosmologic explanations for this effect? Also, what about the phase lock of beams, occuring in MM interferometer? Is there any?

MichaelMcF wrote:
  2.  The difference between the speed of light in vacuum and in atmosphere is negligible - air/vacuum value is 0.9997 if I remember correctly.  If the angle of incidence in vacuum was 45o the angle of incidence in atmosphere would be 44.83o. In other words it can be ignored.

3.  The value for refraction would only matter if the light was travelling from vacuum to atmosphere at any point during the experiment.  It wasn't so your point is... well... pointless.

4.  The Michelson-Morley experiment has been repeated many many times, using far more advanced equipment and much greater understanding of physics than either man was fortunate enough to have.  Guess what?  Still no ether.

I have an article by one engineer. He made two MM experiments, one with Jamin's compensator and the other with a specially pressured and heated air tube. I will now translate his verdict from Slovak language:
It ensues from these two basic measurings with interferometer, that with validity of Snell's law, mathemathically calculated shift of interference stripes is the same as a shift measured on the interferometer. This total agreement of mathemathical calculation and measured data is the proof of Snell's law for the measuring with interferometers.

When we chose the speed of light as c (as it is in description of MMX) there is no shift of interference stripes ensuing from calculation for both measurings. With choice of light speed in both beams of interferometer as c, the effect of refraction index change is excluded, as it is not present in the equations.

This difference between mathemathical calculation and measured shift of interference stripes proves a big mistake in the description of MMX. The contraction of lengths, derived from the description of MMX, is also a mistake.

As I understand it, it does matter a lot, if the changed light speed is used in calculations.

 

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Luminon wrote:MichaelMcF

Luminon wrote:

MichaelMcF wrote:

Then prove it.  If they're physical there must be a way to test for them.  Tell me what it is so that I might try it for myself.

 

The easiest way I know is Transmission Meditation, it makes people feel the etheric energy on their own body. Sooner or later, for some people immediately, sometimes after a couple of years of attending the meditation. In my case, I always had that kind of sensitivity.
At least 3 people would be the better, but we received a positive feedback also from individuals and couples.

However, to that meditation also may belong a device called Tetrahedron. People receive the energies and step it down. Tetrahedron steps them down even more. Within, it contains silver and gold discs, crystal and magnet. From each disc there leads a silver and gold wire, which the meditating men and women hold. An colleague of our local club had been in Belgium for a meditation with the tetrahedron. She held the wire, and it became so hot by the flowing energy, that she had a red lines on her hands for several days.

 

All this is is evidence that there are 1000's of deluded people. I knew that already.

 

 

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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aiia wrote:All this is is

aiia wrote:

 

All this is is evidence that there are 1000's of deluded people. I knew that already.

So people reporting their frequent physical experiences are deluded according to you. Well then, stay safely at home and never try anything on your own skin, and your knowledge will remain the same until the end of your life. But there is a price for it, how can you be taken seriously in the area of delusion study, if you won't look at it closely? You would end up like that local professor, who wrote a "refutation of astrology", which convicted him of total ignorance of it's most basic terms. We laugh at him to this day.
Sun Tzu wrote in his famous book Art of War: 'know your enemy'. And he was right.
 

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Luminon wrote:aiia

Luminon wrote:

aiia wrote:

 

All this is is evidence that there are 1000's of deluded people. I knew that already.

So people reporting their frequent physical experiences are deluded according to you.

Thats right and so are you; either that or you are fucking lying piece of shit. 

People talking shit and believing shit proves people believe shit; that's all it proves. It does not prove that what they believe is true nor does it prove that what they report is true nor does it even mean that it is evidence of what they believe.

Cough up some scientific data or go fuck yourself

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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aiia wrote:Thats right and

aiia wrote:

Thats right and so are you; either that or you are fucking lying piece of shit. 

  People working in that area were in some cases highly intelligent, did an enormous amount of work for others, wrote tenths of books, done a lectures for tenths of thousands of students on universities, and are known worldwidely. You have Einstein and Hawking, I have Yogananda and Krishnamurti. You can stop being rude, I'm not a fuckin' Jehova's witness on who's shoes you can piss. I have no creed compelling me to bother people at all costs, because their easily flammable soul is at stake. It isn't.

aiia wrote:
People talking shit and believing shit proves people believe shit; that's all it proves. It does not prove that what they believe is true nor does it prove that what they report is true nor does it even mean that it is evidence of what they believe.
 I don't believe, neither I want anyone to believe. I want people to learn and improve. You, on the other side, seem to be terribly afraid of learning something that is not proven in advance. You should ask Richard Dawkins to prove you the existence of viruses without leaving the room, and watch how he will pull an electron microscope out of his ass. 6 billions of dollars were spent to prove a pure fantasy in form of a massless particle - the Higgs boson, just because the mathemathical equations had such an ellegant solution. I regret you weren't in a financial commitee for that project, you would surely ask them for proof before giving out 6 billions, right?

aiia wrote:
Cough up some scientific data or go fuck yourself

Sure, if you can study them! How many books can you read in a week? Because, you will not get anything, if you're not a passionate reader. You have to study a lot of books, gather enough information, until the pieces of theory will fit together. No belief is needed, but a deep interest. You seem to be just a passive consumer of facts, you're willing to let yourself be convinced by a proof. But I don't want to convince you, I don't fuckin' care about that. I care only if you're so interested, that you can devote your reading time to a new, very broad area of study, which is an effort equivalent to another university degree. I can recommend you a sources to study, and I can guarantee that it will not be an easy New Age junk. This is what people need me for, to show the best sources. But I have nothing to offer to uninterested, lazy, rude, passive consumers of finished facts. That is not learning, that's just re-assuring. I'm here to watch out for a different people, those who understand that nobody can pull an electron microscope out of their ass. A humility is necessary, besides the intelligence and desire to learn.

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Luminon wrote: aiia

Luminon wrote:

aiia wrote:

Thats right and so are you; either that or you are fucking lying piece of shit.
  People working in that area were in some cases highly intelligent, 

That’s not proof

Quote:
  did an enormous amount of work for others,

That’s not proof

Quote:
   wrote tenths of books,

That’s not proof

Quote:
   done a lectures for tenths of thousands of students on universities,

That’s not proof

Quote:
   and are known worldwidely.

That’s not proof

Quote:
You have Einstein and Hawking, I have Yogananda and Krishnamurti. You can stop being rude,
 
From what I see from wiki Yogananda and Krishnamurti  are liars, frauds, dishonest and deluded who have no evidence.

Quote:
I'm not a fuckin' Jehova's witness on who's shoes you can piss.

anyone who makes outrageous claims without any evidence is a target for ridicule. You better get used to it because you’re full of shit.

Quote:
I have no creed compelling me to bother people at all costs, because their easily flammable soul is at stake. It isn't.

I think you’re here to promote your family’s business – crystal ball reading.

Quote:
aiia wrote:
People talking shit and believing shit proves people believe shit; that's all it proves. It does not prove that what they believe is true nor does it prove that what they report is true nor does it even mean that it is evidence of what they believe.
I don't believe, neither I want anyone to believe. I want people to learn and improve.

Its you who needs to learn. Open a book on science.

Quote:
You, on the other side, seem to be terribly afraid of learning something that is not proven in advance.

 there is no evidence to support the garbage you spew; if there was you would have presented it by now. You’ve been posting for a year and a half. You’ve been lying right from the beginning when I asked you if you believed in a thing called a god and you are lying now.

Quote:
You should ask Richard Dawkins to prove you the existence of viruses without leaving the room, and watch how he will pull an electron microscope out of his ass.

You’re insane. There is no question as to whether viruses exist.

Quote:
6 billions of dollars were spent to prove a pure fantasy in form of a massless particle - the Higgs boson, just because the mathemathical equations had such an ellegant solution. I regret you weren't in a financial commitee for that project, you would surely ask them for proof before giving out 6 billions, right?

 Lets see your mathematical equations that demonstrate any evidence of the garbage you vomit into this forum!

Quote:
aiia wrote:
Cough up some scientific data or go fuck yourself
Sure, if you can study them! How many books can you read in a week? Because, you will not get anything, if you're not a passionate reader. You have to study a lot of books, gather enough information, until the pieces of theory will fit together. No belief is needed, but a deep interest. You seem to be just a passive consumer of facts, you're willing to let yourself be convinced by a proof. But I don't want to convince you, I don't fuckin' care about that. I care only if you're so interested, that you can devote your reading time to a new, very broad area of study, which is an effort equivalent to another university degree. I can recommend you a sources to study, and I can guarantee that it will not be an easy New Age junk. This is what people need me for, to show the best sources. But I have nothing to offer to uninterested, lazy, rude, passive consumers of finished facts. That is not learning, that's just re-assuring. I'm here to watch out for a different people, those who understand that nobody can pull an electron microscope out of their ass. A humility is necessary, besides the intelligence and desire to learn.

(… )

Scientific research is conducted on a base of proven criteria. You and your clown community have nothing to base your beliefs on. NOTHING!
 

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NOTE TO THE OP AND OTHERS:

NOTE TO THE OP AND OTHERS:  I do apologise for hijacking this thread away from the original discussion on dreams BUT I feel the subject ran its course fairly quickly and the scientist in me can't stand the kind of crazy ignorance that's on display here.

 

Luminon wrote:

The easiest way I know is Transmission Meditation, it makes people feel the etheric energy on their own body. Sooner or later, for some people immediately, sometimes after a couple of years of attending the meditation. In my case, I always had that kind of sensitivity.

At least 3 people would be the better, but we received a positive feedback also from individuals and couples.

However, to that meditation also may belong a device called Tetrahedron. People receive the energies and step it down. Tetrahedron steps them down even more. Within, it contains silver and gold discs, crystal and magnet. From each disc there leads a silver and gold wire, which the meditating men and women hold. An colleague of our local club had been in Belgium for a meditation with the tetrahedron. She held the wire, and it became so hot by the flowing energy, that she had a red lines on her hands for several days.

unfortunately for you all sorts of meditation techniques can be shown to operate on a self-hypnotic level.  The people involved could essentially be willing themselves to feel whatever it is they feel.

 

And don't get me started on tetrahedrons/pyramids.  Not only is there very little evidence that they actually do anything, but the fact that some can be sold $16,000 reeks of nothing but a sham to me.

 

Luminon wrote:

As for the planes, I usually see a trails which cross all the sky from horizon to horizon, even if the plane is long gone. I haven't ever seen them disappearing so quickly behind the plane, as it is in that video.

And I've seen trails that disappear rather quickly.  How long a crystalised vapour hangs in the air depends on the atmospheric conditions.  Largely the same rules that govern the formation of... er... what do you call them?.... oh, yeah... clouds!

And just because you haven't seen them disappear as quickly as they do in the video it still doesn't meant that the "orgonite" pointed at the sky had anything to do with it.  Again, I could replicate that video with a tree stump, stuffed squirell or automatic burette and get the same result.  Nothing is proven.
 

Luminon wrote:

(the "equating" was meant as "saying this is that", not as a mathemathical equation) 

This space radiation was discovered last year by the american astronomers from the ARCADE project, at NASA center in Texas. It is an electromagnetic radiation, radio waves, better said. It is an electromagnetic "noise", which had not been identified with any known source.

Aaaaaaah, now I understand.  He took a new discovery that isn't understood and immediately tied it into something ambiguous and ill-defined.  I wonder why that sounds familiar?  For some reason the phrase "God of the Gaps" keeps going around my head....

So what happens if we can explain that background noise in the future without the need for orgone?  What do you think Mr Creme will say to that?  Will it just be "Big Science" shouting down the truth or do you think Mr Creme will find another mystery to latch onto?

Just because we can't explain something yet, doesn't mean that all possible explanations are valid.



Luminon wrote:

As for the Teacher, there are thousands of reports from the world of people who had met him, there are photographs, news reports, and also previously unimaginable plethora of various symbollic signs, both religional and non-religional. There are also appeared many healing water springs. A water from them is said to have a special physical properties - it is somewhat lighter than a normal water.

Please clarify the highlighted statement.

 

Luminon wrote:

As for the public appearing of the Teacher, it's not as easy, as you imagine. In fact, it's unimaginably diffcult. Tthe resistance is fierce and persistent. Opportunity after opportunity went in vain, because of a synchronized counteractions of the opposing side. For example, the 1982 was a great opportunity, but at the same moment, the Falkland war of Argentina and USA started. In that situation, public response would have been negative to the Teacher's arrival. There is a counteraction to everything he does.

Wait, the world-saving Messiah can't come because the world is mean?  Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa    

Who are the mysterious "Other Side"?  How does the Falkalnd's conflict change anything?  Are you seriously trying to suggest that a range war between 2 nations would stop the rest of the world from accepting The Messiah?  The bringer of joy and peace to the world?  Wow.  You're into the mysteries of the mind.  Is there a mental equivalent of the calf muscle?  I only ask because I'd like to know how you managed to avoid straining it during all your mental gymnastics...


Luminon wrote:

However, there is a great hope placed in the upcoming financial crisis. A worldwide crash of this unfair pyramid lottery called "global economy" expected in 2009 is the most promising future opportunity I know of.

Wait, so a range war between Argentina and Britain is enough to stop "The Teacher" but a global depression, affecting all nations, caused by the collapse of complex economic systems which will impact the lives of millions of people in countless negative ways, is what primes the world to accept the teacher?  Would you care to explain what's different between the two sets of circumstances

 

Luminon wrote:

Silvertooth's work is repeated in every device employing the Sagnac effect, yet nobody notices that. What are the standard cosmologic explanations for this effect? Also, what about the phase lock of beams, occuring in MM interferometer? Is there any?

Oh god.  You don't understand the sagnac effect do you?  I didn't, but I took all of 5 minutes to find out what it was.  The sagnac effect is a shift in the interference fringes of an interferometer caused by angular velocity.  That much you might know about and are grasping at.

What the sagnac effect disproved was the ballistic theory of light - that light always has the same velocity relative to the source.  The ballistic theory was in agreement with the MM experiment but was not required for the experiment.

 

Luminon wrote:

I have an article by one engineer. He made two MM experiments, one with Jamin's compensator and the other with a specially pressured and heated air tube. I will now translate his verdict from Slovak language:

It ensues from these two basic measurings with interferometer, that with validity of Snell's law, mathemathically calculated shift of interference stripes is the same as a shift measured on the interferometer. This total agreement of mathemathical calculation and measured data is the proof of Snell's law for the measuring with interferometers.

When we chose the speed of light as c (as it is in description of MMX) there is no shift of interference stripes ensuing from calculation for both measurings. With choice of light speed in both beams of interferometer as c, the effect of refraction index change is excluded, as it is not present in the equations.

This difference between mathemathical calculation and measured shift of interference stripes proves a big mistake in the description of MMX. The contraction of lengths, derived from the description of MMX, is also a mistake.

As I understand it, it does matter a lot, if the changed light speed is used in calculations.

 

The contraction here, I presume, refers to the Lorentz contractions.  These are not derived from the MMX but description of the effects witnessed in the experiment by Lorentz (and others... Fitzgerald maybe?).  These contractions can also be derived quite nicely from first principles in relativity theory.

You've still not explained how snell's law affects the MM experiment when the light is travelling through the atmosphere.  Please provide a link to the paper you're discussing so I may have a look at it myself.  Don't worry I have a colleague who can translate from Slovak.

 

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MichaelMcF wrote:NOTE TO THE

MichaelMcF wrote:

NOTE TO THE OP AND OTHERS:  I do apologise for hijacking this thread away from the original discussion on dreams BUT I feel the subject ran its course fairly quickly and the scientist in me can't stand the kind of crazy ignorance that's on display here.

Dude, do your thing. Watching you redress Luminon's topsy-turvy circus of crystals and energy is half the reason I sift through these threads.

Michael wrote:

You've still not explained how snell's law affects the MM experiment when the light is travelling through the atmosphere.  Please provide a link to the paper you're discussing so I may have a look at it myself.  Don't worry I have a colleague who can translate from Slovak.

Lol. He was NOT expecting that.

I might add that I think I'm going to steal your idea and film myself pointing a stuffed squirrel at vapor trails. My friend's uncle is quite the taxidermist. 

"Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven. Whiles, like a puff'd and reckless libertine, himself the primrose path of dalliance treads. And recks not his own rede."


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There are times when I just stare in amazement at things people say.


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MichaelMcF

MichaelMcF wrote:
unfortunately for you all sorts of meditation techniques can be shown to operate on a self-hypnotic level.  The people involved could essentially be willing themselves to feel

whatever it is they feel.

We don't tell people what to feel. They're only told to concentrate at the point on their forehead. And yet, the effects are the same or very similar. Usually, people hear a sound like a hissing air under pressure. This is complemented by various feelings of pressure, heat and movement in places where the first 4 chakras are. There are

often felt pulses within the head, much faster than heartbeat. However, this all stops if a person loses focus on the forehead. I don't believe that it is possible to simulate these physical feelings so easily, and besides that, nobody has a time for it, because they must concentrate on the forehead. I doubt that anyone can simulate feelings according to their will, specially when they're not even trying it.

 

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
And don't get me started on tetrahedrons/pyramids.  Not only is there very little evidence that

they actually do anything, but the fact that some can be sold

$16,000 reeks of nothing but a sham to me.

Of course, this one is a sham and it's not even a tetrahedron, it's a pyramid. The original tetrahedrons are entirely different and built by the group, probably for a much smaller price for raw materials.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
And I've seen trails that disappear rather quickly.  How long a crystalised vapour hangs in the

air depends on the atmospheric conditions.  Largely the same rules that govern the formation

of... er... what do you call them?.... oh, yeah... clouds! And just because you haven't seen them disappear as quickly as they do in the video it still doesn't meant that the "orgonite" pointed at the sky had anything to do with it.  Again, Icould replicate that video with a tree stump, stuffed squirell or automatic burette and get the same result.  Nothing is proven.

And a better video would work? It didn't, last time. Nothing can convince you, only a physical demonstration of that device. You see what the coach skepticism is good for. There's no chance unless you sit in a car and visit someone who has the cloudbuster.

MichaelMcF wrote:

Aaaaaaah, now I understand.  He took a new discovery that isn't understood and immediately tied  it into something ambiguous and ill-defined.  I wonder why that sounds familiar?  For some  reason the phrase "God of the Gaps" keeps going around my head....

This is only a sign, that esoteric theory is compatible with this discovery, just like Mendelejev's periodic table of elements was not made obsolete with a discovery of new elements. Maybe when you and I will read closely A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, we will see that it is not ambiguous, nor ill-defined. It is necessary to find parallels between scientific and esoteric terminology, because the esoteric science is far ahead in theory, though not in technology. Only since recently we are advanced enough to recognize some things, like String theory, which was discovered 80 years earlier by esotericists. And the existence of "dark matter" in it's true ratio to visible matter was known in various teachings of the history, as it is also documented in this article.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
So what happens if we can explain that background noise in the future without the need for orgone?  What do you think Mr Creme will say to that?  Will it just be "Big Science" shouting down the truth or do you think Mr Creme will find another mystery to latch onto?
I don't know. So far, the development in science followed the schemes of esoteric cosmology. I should ask you what happens, if I can explain why there is 94% of the universe which you can't see. However, do you want to deny the close entanglement between science and the world of big money, corporate and political interests?

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Just because we can't explain something yet, doesn't mean that all possible explanations are valid.
No, there is only one explanation, but perhaps expressible in several equivalent ways. The trick is to translate the already existing esoteric explanations into the language of science and technology.


 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Please clarify the highlighted statement.
The following quote is from this link: http://www.share-international.org/archives/healing_water/hw_bshealing.htm

 

The 'Lourdes' of Mexico

 One of the earliest reports came from Tlacote, Mexico, a small village 150 miles north of Mexico City. There in 1991, on a chicken ranch belonging to Jesus Chahin Simon, his dog, Lucas, was cured of wounds after drinking from a well. Chahin tested the water, with great success, on his ranch workers and farm animals, then decided to make it available to everyone, free of charge. With government help he set up a modern storage, pumping and purifying system.

 Though the number of visitors has now declined, four or five years ago as many as 10,000 people a day often lined up at his gate, some in wheel chairs or walkers, patiently waiting their turn. Chahin has kept scrupulous medical records, and cures of diabetes, high blood pressure, glaucoma, arthritis and many other ailments are well-documented. In addition, the water has increased the productivity of the ranch. Plants and trees bear extra crops, an unusual occurrence for an area with a cool climate.

 According to a CBS report, 'Up to the Minute' (KENS-TV, Aug. 5, 1993), the water was found to be 44 grams lighter than conventional water, measured in kilograms per liter. Scientific tests are continuing, but as yet scientists are unsure what is causing the benefits of 'Mexico's Lourdes'.
 

MichaelMcF wrote:
  Wait, the world-saving Messiah can't come because the world is mean?  Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

 ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa   

As he was saying from the beginning, he doesn't come to save the world. He comes to tell us how we can save it, but we must do the work, it's to save our asses after all, not his. He offers all the know-how we will need and advice on everything we ask, if we ask, because he's a Teacher. The problem is, that we must first ask. And you know that our political leaders, economists, religional leaders and other so-called experts are especially confused and helpless in these times. But he can not come uninvited. He was already invited into the world, but not yet to appear publically in media.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Who are the mysterious "Other Side"?
The mysterious "Other side"? I only know about some of them - the gang from Wall Street, those who own American and global banking system, mass media owners, military chiefs, and so on, everyone who we didn't have a chance to vote for, and yet they set the world's heartbeat and control at least 50% of global wealth and finances.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
  How does the Falkalnd's conflict change anything?  Are you seriously trying to suggest that a range war between 2 nations would stop the rest of the world from accepting The Messiah?  The bringer of joy and peace to the world?  Wow.  You're into the mysteries of the mind.  Is there a mental equivalent of the calf muscle?  I only ask because I'd like to know how you managed to avoid straining it during all your mental gymnastics...
The Teacher needs to be invited by the whole world, otherwise it would be no invitation. But the only thing able to represent the global opinion is the mass media network. In 1982 the media's attention was fully caught by the war of Argentina and USA. The Teacher decided not compete for a piece of the people's divided attention, this was supposed to be a great arrival on the first pages. And so, the opportunity was gone. There are currently new plans and methods, like the gradual emergence in media, in anonymity. When the financial crisis will continue and get much stronger, he can get an attention of media as a new, original advisor for the crisis.

MichaelMcF wrote:
Wait, so a range war between Argentina and Britain is enough to stop "The Teacher" but a global depression, affecting all nations, caused by the collapse of complex economic systems which will impact the lives of millions of people in countless negative ways, is what primes the world to accept the teacher?  Would you care to explain what's different between the two sets of circumstances
I can, but that very question is meaningless. With all respect, you will need to get some more information on this topic. Firstly, you will need to read an article by David Korten, called Why this crisis may be our best chance to build a new economy. Secondly, you need to watch the film called Money as Debt. (MAD) And thirdly, a short but important film called Story of Stuff. (SOS)

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Oh god.  You don't understand the sagnac effect do you?  I didn't, but I took all of 5 minutes

 to find out what it was.  The sagnac effect is a shift in the interference fringes of an interferometer caused by angular velocity.  That much you might know about and are grasping at. What the sagnac effect disproved was the ballistic theory of light - that light always has the same velocity relative to the source.  The ballistic theory was in agreement with the MM

experiment but was not required for the experiment.

Well, sure the light doesn't have the same velocity, but why in MM experiment it has? I have read the articles for possible explanations. But surely I've got quite a goulash in that topic, because of the competing scientific paradigms, the underground and the official. I'm a layman in that topic, you know. I am interested in the research of ether, because I'm one of many who are physically aware of it, every day, for all my life. I have seen many times that ether exists, this is out of discussion, now the question is about the scientific definition. I can show you the way to the controversial articles and you can tell me where they are wrong, or right.


 

MichaelMcF wrote:
 The contraction here, I presume, refers to the Lorentz contractions.  These are not derived

 from the MMX but description of the effects witnessed in the experiment by Lorentz (and

others... Fitzgerald maybe?).  These contractions can also be derived quite nicely from first

principles in relativity theory.

Yeah. But seriously, I don't know what to think about the relativity theory. If you get a chance to read the following articles, you will find it pretty much under attack.

MichaelMcF wrote:
You've still not explained how snell's law affects the MM experiment when the light is travelling through the atmosphere.  Please provide a link to the paper you're discussing so I may have a look at it myself.  Don't worry I have a colleague who can translate from Slovak.
The article is from the local WM Magazine. I have received it for years, but many of the articles are online. They are in such a weird web interface, showing one article at a time. The articles in the science and technics section are here. The article I meant is on the first page called OMYL FYZIKY: Michelson-Morleyho experiment (The error of physics: MM E)

But your colleague should also be able to read the articles in Czech language, it's very similar. Other interesting articles may be "Důkaz existence éteru" (the proof of ether's existence) on page 2 and many other iconoclastic articles which slander Einstein, Higgs boson, LHC, and so on. " Elektrický vesmír" (electric universe) may also be interesting for you. I'm seriously considering the electric unvierse hypothesis instead of the standard model, you know.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


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Luminon wrote:often felt

Luminon wrote:

often felt pulses within the head, much faster than heartbeat. However, this all stops if a person loses focus on the forehead. I don't believe that it is possible to simulate these physical feelings so easily, and besides that, nobody has a time for it, because they must concentrate on the forehead. I doubt that anyone can simulate feelings according to their will, specially when they're not even trying it.

These pulses couldn't be... their pulse?  Which has quickened under the intense focus?

 

And yet, you argue that you're able to change how your body feels by the power of your will alone.  So can people simulate physical feelings or not Luminon?  Which is it?

 

Luminon wrote:

Of course, this one is a sham and it's not even a tetrahedron, it's a pyramid. The original tetrahedrons are entirely different and built by the group, probably for a much smaller price for raw materials.

I am aware of the difference in shape.  My point was that you've no evidence that your device is any better than a sham pyramid that someone sells for extortionate amounts of money.

How do these tetrahedra work Luminon?  Can you link me to something?  What are the crystals for?  What are the wires for?  What evidence do you have that they do anything?  I won't hold my breath for anything that is etheric or based in feelings.

 

Luminon wrote:

And a better video would work? It didn't, last time. Nothing can convince you, only a physical demonstration of that device. You see what the coach skepticism is good for. There's no chance unless you sit in a car and visit someone who has the cloudbuster.

A better video would work.  Here's what I'd need to see in the video:

  • A plane passing overhead and leaving a noticeable lingering trail.  The orgonite is then erected and pointed at the trail which then rapidly disappears - at a rate change that's too quick to be natural.
  • OR
  • A video which contains two vapour trails on the same day, under the same conditions, one with and one without the device.  This would help to give credence to the idea that the orgonite is doing something.

With both these videos there would have to be evidence that the tape was recorded all in one day and no jump-cuts would be allowed.  A cut in a video leads to thoughts of editing which isn't good if you want to prove anything.  The video would also need to come with an explanation of the theory and the method so that others might be able to repeat the experiment if they wanted to.

 

Skepticism doesn't lead to disbelief nor does it necessarily something that's coached - all it is is a requirement for vigour in claims.  Give me a tightened up video and we'll talk.

 

Luminon wrote:

This is only a sign, that esoteric theory is compatible with this discovery, just like Mendelejev's periodic table of elements was not made obsolete with a discovery of new elements.

The only thing that it's a sign of is that you can assign meaning to something when you don't understand it, and it certainly does not compare to Mendelejev.  The genius of Mendelejev was that he realised that his periodic table wasn't the complete picture and he left gaps in the table, acknowledging that there was still more to be discovered.  The discovery of new elements couldn't make the table obselete - they were predicted by it.

If you're going to bring heroes of mine into the discussion please make sure you know what you're talking about.

 

Luminon wrote:

Maybe when you and I will read closely A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, we will see that it is not ambiguous, nor ill-defined. It is necessary to find parallels between scientific and esoteric terminology, because the esoteric science is far ahead in theory, though not in technology.

Science is science my friend.  "Esoteric Science" is far ahead in theory?  To be able to make this sort of bold assertion you have to be able to prove the theory is accurate - and as esoteric theories have so far contributed nothing to the advancement of the human race I'll take your claim with a pinch of salt.

 

Luminon wrote:

Only since recently we are advanced enough to recognize some things, like String theory, which was discovered 80 years earlier by esotericists. And the existence of "dark matter" in it's true ratio to visible matter was known in various teachings of the history, as it is also documented in this article.

Actually no, what you "esoterics" are doing is taking any poorly explained scientific discovery and making it fit to vestigial beliefs after the fact.  For example, the article you linked to had this to say:

EsotericScience wrote:

More recently the discovery of vast spherical energy auras, which totally encircle the galactic disc, indicates the presence of a large mass of dark matter and dark energy outside the galactic nucleus. Dark energy is a hypothetical form of energy which permeates all of space and has strong negative pressure, which explains the accelerating expansion of the universe. It is a relatively new concept that forms part of the "Standard Model", which states that the universe is composed of approximately 4% visible matter, 23% dark matter and 73% dark energy. This dark matter and energy is the energy-matter of the aforementioned higher planes of Hindu and Buddhist cosmologies and the hidden spatial dimensions of string theory.

This does nothing to back up your ridiculous claim that the ratios of the matter types were predicted years ago.  All this is is an explanation of the scientific theory with "oh, it's quite mysterious so is probably the same as the mysterious ill-defined energies that other dudes spoke about ages ago".  This is not proof of a predicion.  This kind of thinking is what gets people to assume predictions and prophecies are true after the fact.  It's easy to make things fit in hindsight.

 

Luminon wrote:

I don't know. So far, the development in science followed the schemes of esoteric cosmology.

You don't know.  Normally I would congratulate you on this bit of honesty - doesn't hurt to say you don't know from time to time - but it should have been simple to answer.  If we find an explanation for the radio noise that doesn't fit Creme's orgone idea then he will have been wrong and - I'd put money on this - he would have to find some other unexplained phenomenon to account for orgone.  And so the cycle will continue.

 

Luminon wrote:

I should ask you what happens, if I can explain why there is 94% of the universe which you can't see.

I'm not sure what you're really asking here, what will happen if you provide an explanation of dark matter?...

 

Except you can't explain it.  Unless you want to proffer a reasoned hypothesis as to why 94% of matter is dark?  And is your hypothesis testable?  If it is then I'll tell you what happens.  I'll gladly take your theory to the physics and cosmology department at both Strathclyde and Glasgow Universitiest to have learned men dicuss the theory and set up experiments to test it.  And we'll find out if your explanation is close to being correct.

If you're right you're right, if you're not you're not.

 

Luminon wrote:

However, do you want to deny the close entanglement between science and the world of big money, corporate and political interests?

This is a pointless question that has nothing to do with the argument at hand.  You've just carried out the grown-up version of the following:

 

Child 1:  I think Basketball player A is better than Basketball player B

Child 2:  I think I can show you otherwise.  Also, your mother is a whore.

 

The closing statement has nothing to do with the conversation and is, at best, a cheap shot and a diversionary tactic.

 

Yes there are monetary, corporate and political interests in science.  There are monetary and corporate interestes in esoterics as well.  Ask the dude that's selling a pyramid for 16,000 dollars. 

 

Suggesting what you're close to suggesting - that there's some sort of BIG SCIENCE conspiracy fuelled by special interests - makes my blood boil.  I am a scientist and I have worked my arse off to develop testable theories and methods that others can use and learn from so that our wealth of knowledge continues to go.  I don't get lots of funding.  This isn't because I'm doing "underground" science, nor is it because I'm working against "the establishment".  It's because I'm working in an area that isn't "sexy" - it's not military, pharmaceutical or biotech.  BUT that doesn't mean anyone is working against me.  My work gets published and is accepted in the scientific literature because it holds up to scientific rigour.

 

Don't dare tell me that science is corrupt.

 

Luminon wrote:

No, there is only one explanation, but perhaps expressible in several equivalent ways. The trick is to translate the already existing esoteric explanations into the language of science and technology.

False.  All opinions are not equally valid.  If there's only one explanation then it can only be explained in one valid way.  If you express it any other way it's an analogy, metaphor or bollocks.


 

Luminon wrote:

The following quote is from this link: http://www.share-international.org/archives/healing_water/hw_bshealing.htm

What the waters that were shown to be nothing more than unremarkable drinking water?  They were not lighter than normal water.


 

Luminon wrote:

As he was saying from the beginning, he doesn't come to save the world. He comes to tell us how we can save it, but we must do the work, it's to save our asses after all, not his. He offers all the know-how we will need and advice on everything we ask, if we ask, because he's a Teacher. The problem is, that we must first ask. And you know that our political leaders, economists, religional leaders and other so-called experts are especially confused and helpless in these times. But he can not come uninvited. He was already invited into the world, but not yet to appear publically in media.

Bullshit.  If he really knew how to save the world then that truth would shine out regardless of when it was spoken.  In fact we would be more likely to listen to it in desperate times.

This is about as strong an argument as "You'll only feel Jesus if you invite him into your heart, and if you don't feel him then you don't want it enough".  It's a cop-out that gives whoever your talking about free reign to never appear.

 

 

Lumion wrote:

The mysterious "Other side"? I only know about some of them - the gang from Wall Street, those who own American and global banking system, mass media owners, military chiefs, and so on, everyone who we didn't have a chance to vote for, and yet they set the world's heartbeat and control at least 50% of global wealth and finances.

Ah, the undefined "Them".  What are you calling them these days?  Illuminati?  The Watchers?  The Masons?  THe Grand Order of Seth?  The Lizard People?

So this "Other Side" is working against the man with all the answers on how to save the world?  This world that already includes these others?  If he can't work around them then how does he have all the answers?  I mean if he can save us from ourselves then surely he has an aswer for overthrowing the evil conspiracy?  Right?  Right?

 

Luminon wrote:

he Teacher needs to be invited by the whole world, otherwise it would be no invitation. But the only thing able to represent the global opinion is the mass media network. In 1982 the media's attention was fully caught by the war of Argentina and USA. The Teacher decided not compete for a piece of the people's divided attention, this was supposed to be a great arrival on the first pages. And so, the opportunity was gone. There are currently new plans and methods, like the gradual emergence in media, in anonymity. When the financial crisis will continue and get much stronger, he can get an attention of media as a new, original advisor for the crisis.

The whole world you say?  Everyone on the planet?  In 1982 the media coverage of the Falklands did not reach everyone because the mass media network was not that large.  The entire world was not watching the Falkands conflict!  What about all the people that the news didn't or couldn't reach?  Do their voices not matter?  Or is it only western civilisations that matter?  What about tribespeople that couldn't give a flying monkey's fuck about Argentina?

The answers on how to save the world would have to compete for the front page with a range war between two pissed off countries?  Then the answers must not be very impressive.  In fact surely the Falkand's war and events like it are exaclty the kinds of thing that the answers are designed to solve.  I know a great many people that wanted that war to end quickly.

 

Luminon wrote:

I can, but that very question is meaningless.

If there's an answer to the question then it can't have been meaningless.

 

Luminon wrote:

With all respect, you will need to get some more information on this topic. Firstly, you will need to read an article by David Korten, called Why this crisis may be our best chance to build a new economy. Secondly, you need to watch the film called Money as Debt. (MAD) And thirdly, a short but important film called Story of Stuff. (SOS)

Yeah, but you're links do nothing to explain why this is the right time for "The Teacher" to appear.  I'll accept the premise of all the linkes that the current capitalist system is flawed.  Its total collapse will still plunge the world into misery and people will be as desperate and distracted as they were during a war that didn't affect them, even more so in fact.

 

So I repeat the question - How does something which affects millions of people badly and is covered by the media network differ from something that affected thousands of people badly and was covered by the media network?  What is it about current events that makes it more likely for "The Teacher" to come?

Is it that the teacher will guide us to a new and better economy?  If so then he's not the teacher anyone wants.  I think we'd all prefer a teacher that would turn up during... I dunno... a war perhaps... and give people the answers that will end war.

 

Luminon wrote:

Well, sure the light doesn't have the same velocity, but why in MM experiment it has?

I'm not even sure what you're asking here, can you clarify?

 

Luminon wrote:

I have read the articles for possible explanations. But surely I've got quite a goulash in that topic, because of the competing scientific paradigms, the underground and the official.

Excuse my language but I've had enough of this conspiracy bullshit.  There is no "underground" or "official" science.  Science is science. The stuff people like you regard as "underground" is not taken as "official" because it does not stand up to testing.  The people most vociferous in this sort of argument are those whose ideas are disproven or whose theistic beliefs are being eroded by scientific discovery.  Just because you got told you're wrong doesn't mean people are out to get you or silence you.  Sometimes it means you're wrong

The claim that people have to act "underground" because the "establishment" doesn't like them is the defense of an ignorant child and I will treat it with nothing but scorn.

 

Luminon wrote:

I'm a layman in that topic, you know. I am interested in the research of ether, because I'm one of many who are physically aware of it, every day, for all my life. I have seen many times that ether exists, this is out of discussion, now the question is about the scientific definition. I can show you the way to the controversial articles and you can tell me where they are wrong, or right.

It is not out of the discussion.  You have claimed that ether is part of the physical world but can't provide a physical proof of it.  If you continue to make this claim then not only does it stay in the discussion but it does so front and cenre.


 

Luminon wrote:

Yeah. But seriously, I don't know what to think about the relativity theory. If you get a chance to read the following articles, you will find it pretty much under attack.

And yet the esoteric science website you linked to earlier seems fine with it and accepts it as one of the major breakthroughs in science.  It even makes the claim that the possibilities opened up by relativity (and quantum mechanics, two areas it mistakenly overlaps) match esoteric teachings.

So is relativity in agreement or not?

 

Luminon wrote:

The article is from the local WM Magazine. I have received it for years, but many of the articles are online. They are in such a weird web interface, showing one article at a time. The articles in the science and technics section are here. The article I meant is on the first page called OMYL FYZIKY: Michelson-Morleyho experiment (The error of physics: MM E)

But your colleague should also be able to read the articles in Czech language, it's very similar. Other interesting articles may be "Důkaz existence éteru" (the proof of ether's existence) on page 2 and many other iconoclastic articles which slander Einstein, Higgs boson, LHC, and so on. " Elektrický vesmír" (electric universe) may also be interesting for you. I'm seriously considering the electric unvierse hypothesis instead of the standard model, you know.

 

Yes he should.  My colleague is from Ricany outside Prague and speaks Slovak as fluently as his home tongue.  I'll get back to you on the articles

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss


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MichaelMcF wrote:These

MichaelMcF wrote:

These pulses couldn't be... their pulse?  Which has quickened under the intense focus?

No, that's like 10 Hz at least. But usually it's so quick, that it sounds like an air hissing under pressure. The heartbeat works independently. Sometimes it's unnoticeable and sometimes it's beating a lot, but it's always much slower and easy to distinguish. And sometimes there comes that beautiful feeling of peace and tranquility, which we all meditators love Smiling

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
And yet, you argue that you're able to change how your body feels by the power of your will alone.  So can people simulate physical feelings or not Luminon?  Which is it?
I think they can't, except by hypnosis. Hypnosis is sub-conscious. Conscious perception always tries to see things as they are. But here the consciousness itself is a tool. The mind is a less or more controlled force affecting the body, and just like you can pinch yourself to feel something in return, I can stimulate some my chakra to feel something in return. Therefore, it is not a simulation of feelings, it is an affection of body, which produces the feelings afterwards.

MichaelMcF wrote:
I am aware of the difference in shape.  My point was that you've no evidence that your device is any better than a sham pyramid that someone sells for extortionate amounts of money.

How do these tetrahedra work Luminon?  Can you link me to something?  What are the crystals for?  What are the wires for?  What evidence do you have that they do anything?  I won't hold my breath for anything that is etheric or based in feelings.

I'll try to explain. When people do T. Meditation, they receive spiritual energy and they step it down. When there is more than 6-7 people meditating, men and women should sit in separate groups, because the energy they receive is individual and further differentiated according to gender.
There are two wires going out of the tetrahedron, gold and silver. All men hold one wire, and all women hold the other. The energy goes through the wires.
You can find the most information by examining the free meditation handbook. You can find a lot of the 'tetrahedron' keywords and related information in the text. There is some interesting information, for example, that people should not sit in front of the gold disc within the tetrahedron, because this is where the output of energy (beam) is. I know from my own experience that excessive playing with spiritual energy can make people feel rather bad.
 

MichaelMcF wrote:
A better video would work.  Here's what I'd need to see in the video:

I hope this video is better. I couldn't find it before. However, there is no airplane, it's with a clouded sky.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqo01z_KJM&feature=related
 

MichaelMcF wrote:

The only thing that it's a sign of is that you can assign meaning to something when you don't understand it, and it certainly does not compare to Mendelejev.  The genius of Mendelejev was that he realised that his periodic table wasn't the complete picture and he left gaps in the table, acknowledging that there was still more to be discovered.  The discovery of new elements couldn't make the table obselete - they were predicted by it.

If you're going to bring heroes of mine into the discussion please make sure you know what you're talking about.

Well, and so the esoteric theory predicts the discovery of new states of matter and new kinds of energy, arranged by their  frequencies in octaves. It also predicts the existence of life forms based on that matter. But so far, nobody I know of tried to interpret the discoveries in terms of these octaves. Electromagnetic spectrum is a good candidate for start.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Science is science my friend.  "Esoteric Science" is far ahead in theory?  To be able to make this sort of bold assertion you have to be able to prove the theory is accurate - and as esoteric theories have so far contributed nothing to the advancement of the human race I'll take your claim with a pinch of salt.
The humanity is still not mature. In past ages, most of people were busy with material world and esoteric knowledge was kept secret. Now it's available freely in most of bookstores and the technology starts to be efficient and sensitive enough to detect even some less material phenomena. But it's only the beginning. From the point of view of esoteric history, the world just begun to be interesting.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

This does nothing to back up your ridiculous claim that the ratios of the matter types were predicted years ago.  All this is is an explanation of the scientific theory with "oh, it's quite mysterious so is probably the same as the mysterious ill-defined energies that other dudes spoke about ages ago".  This is not proof of a predicion.  This kind of thinking is what gets people to assume predictions and prophecies are true after the fact.  It's easy to make things fit in hindsight.

All right. The esotericist Alice Bailey created a cosmologic scheme. It consists of 7 realms (octaves) with 7 sub-realms, 49 in total. The lowest three sub-realms are called solid, liquid and gaseous, and they're the representation of our visible world. The rest of the world has higher vibration and therefore is invisible to us. Now, let's compute 3/46, which gives a result of about 6%, which is not terribly different from the 4% which is the current scientific opinion on approximate amount of visible matter/energy in the universe.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

Except you can't explain it.  Unless you want to proffer a reasoned hypothesis as to why 94% of matter is dark?  And is your hypothesis testable?  If it is then I'll tell you what happens.  I'll gladly take your theory to the physics and cosmology department at both Strathclyde and Glasgow Universitiest to have learned men dicuss the theory and set up experiments to test it.  And we'll find out if your explanation is close to being correct.

If you're right you're right, if you're not you're not.

I don't know if that hypothesis is testable, but I'll try. All matter can be expressed as a wave function. A function with certain frequency of waves. Not all matter has the same frequency. The frequencies of matter are arranged in "octaves", each with 7 tones, and between octaves there is a gap in frequency.
Matter is mostly empty. It can collide with other matter, because their electrons repel each other. But a difference in vibration of the atom disables the collisions, and the atoms pass through each other freely. This is why there may be other items, even whole worlds on this very place, but they're invisible. This would also explain the energy in every cubic milimeter of vacuum, which is immense.
And now the interesting part. Every life form must be less or more based on the matter with higher vibration, rather than lower. A living being lives primarily in form of the matter of higher vibration, than dense-physical. The more evolved the being is, the higher octaves of matter does it include. And when a being dies, the remaining higher part continues to live for some time. This is the potential explanation for the ancient notions of afterlife and spiritual worlds.
Also, with more control on higher octaves, there are new abilities - better emotions, greater intellect, and even intuition. Living in higher octaves is easier and different, because the time and space are more relative there and entropy is much lesser. However, it presents relatively few opportunities for work, learning and development. This is one of reasons why the life decides - or is decided, to undertake the diffculties of dense-physical form, live, die, and again.

MichaelMcF wrote:

Yes there are monetary, corporate and political interests in science.  There are monetary and corporate interestes in esoterics as well.  Ask the dude that's selling a pyramid for 16,000 dollars.

That's not esoterics, that's simply a scam. Esoterics is represented by strictly non-profit volunteer organizations like Alice Bailey's Arcane School. No real esotericists do it for money (though they must know how to use money correctly), neither they claim about themselves that they are initiates of any degree. This is the same problem as with science and pseudoscience.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Suggesting what you're close to suggesting - that there's some sort of BIG SCIENCE conspiracy fuelled by special interests - makes my blood boil.  I am a scientist and I have worked my arse off to develop testable theories and methods that others can use and learn from so that our wealth of knowledge continues to go.  I don't get lots of funding.  This isn't because I'm doing "underground" science, nor is it because I'm working against "the establishment".  It's because I'm working in an area that isn't "sexy" - it's not military, pharmaceutical or biotech.  BUT that doesn't mean anyone is working against me.  My work gets published and is accepted in the scientific literature because it holds up to scientific rigour.

Don't dare tell me that science is corrupt.

Even if I won't say that science is corrupt, everything around it is, and it surely influences the science. If you want some real example, think of the stem cell research. Economic, politics, business, military, and so on. People everywhere are known to be potentially corruptable, specially in my country. I don't know why priests should be exempted, and why scientists should be exempted.
Btw, esotericism is probably currently corrupted the most of everything, and it's least effective, because one good group has little influence on a dozen of deluded groups. It's still such a free discipline.

MichaelMcF wrote:

What the waters that were shown to be nothing more than unremarkable drinking water?  They were not lighter than normal water.

Truthfulness of this message is somewhat uncertain. Look at the review of that place by Gill Fry, the professional nurse. It's described quite differently. Also, the water is described as 'totally clean and pure', no sodium and magnesium bicarbonate is reported. Processing about 200-400 hectolitres per day, all the pipes would soon have to be stuffed with bicarbonate. No massive filter or distiller is described there, so they're not even trying to clean the water - it is already pure.
The ranch also had a big archive of people healed of serious diseases, water-testing apparatus and a doctor taking care of the visitors.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

Bullshit.  If he really knew how to save the world then that truth would shine out regardless of when it was spoken.  In fact we would be more likely to listen to it in desperate times.

This is about as strong an argument as "You'll only feel Jesus if you invite him into your heart, and if you don't feel him then you don't want it enough".  It's a cop-out that gives whoever your talking about free reign to never appear.

The truth wouldn't shine out, because it can only do so through mass media, which were always very hostile to that kind of message. Without them, the humanity as such is blind and deaf. 

MichaelMcF wrote:

Ah, the undefined "Them".  What are you calling them these days?  Illuminati?  The Watchers?  The Masons?  THe Grand Order of Seth?  The Lizard People?

I have heard them called recently the "shadow government". But who are they? You want me to know the greatest secret of the world? Well, I'm the guy who know the sense of life, but that's too much. Surely, we can speculate about people like Warren Buffet, Rupert Murdoch or some of the Rockefellers, but we can never be sure. But there is something I am sure about. I'm sure that they're not Masons (Masons are my fellow colleagues in esotericism), and they're not lizard people. (though maybe they made the lizards up) Our whole civilization is designed in such a way, that majority of global wealth and power is concentrated in very few hands. The system is designed in such a way, that the poor are made poorer, and the rich are still fewer and richer. There are billions of people who have nothing, but their wealth didn't went missing. It ended up under control of a few anonymous people, far from the reach of media, politics, police or military. Remember, governments are ruled by banks, and banks are ruled by one central bank. And who controls the central bank? There inevitably must be someone.

MichaelMcF wrote:
So this "Other Side" is working against the man with all the answers on how to save the world?  This world that already includes these others?  If he can't work around them then how does he have all the answers?  I mean if he can save us from ourselves then surely he has an aswer for overthrowing the evil conspiracy?  Right?  Right?
Right.  But it's about us too, this is something that can't be done without our participation. The plan is to inform and inspire people in such a way, that they will rise and change the world. In some parts of the world this is already happening and Share International takes care to bring regularly the articles and reports on that topic.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

The whole world you say?  Everyone on the planet?  In 1982 the media coverage of the Falklands did not reach everyone because the mass media network was not that large.  The entire world was not watching the Falkands conflict!  What about all the people that the news didn't or couldn't reach?  Do their voices not matter?  Or is it only western civilisations that matter?  What about tribespeople that couldn't give a flying monkey's fuck about Argentina?

You're playing with words. The coverage of global media is already sufficient. Indigenous people will be left alone to make up their mind later.

MichaelMcF wrote:
  The answers on how to save the world would have to compete for the front page with a range war between two pissed off countries?  Then the answers must not be very impressive.  In fact surely the Falkand's war and events like it are exaclty the kinds of thing that the answers are designed to solve.  I know a great many people that wanted that war to end quickly.
You forgot what countries. One of them was USA, the big, mean, nuke-wielding global badass. It wouldn't be a good start to enter the global scene and yell "Hey, you back there, USA and Argentina! Silence, I've got something to say!" Such a scenes undermine one's authority.

 

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

 

Yeah, but you're links do nothing to explain why this is the right time for "The Teacher" to appear.  I'll accept the premise of all the linkes that the current capitalist system is flawed.  Its total collapse will still plunge the world into misery and people will be as desperate and distracted as they were during a war that didn't affect them, even more so in fact.

The time was right after WW2, and the discovery of nuclear bomb. But the war wasn't won completely. A part of it relocated to the middle East and eastern Europe, and part of it transformed into economic and ideologic competition. Soon it became obvious, that if we don't change ourselves radically, we will inevitably destroy ourselves by global pollution, depletion of resources, climate change and nuclear war.

MichaelMcF wrote:
So I repeat the question - How does something which affects millions of people badly and is covered by the media network differ from something that affected thousands of people badly and was covered by the media network?  What is it about current events that makes it more likely for "The Teacher" to come?

The difference of the global economic collapse should be obvious. Quoting you, Its total collapse will still plunge the world into misery and people will be as desperate and distracted as they were during a war that didn't affect them, even more so in fact. There is something you seem to miss out. The world is already in misery. There is a catastrophe happening every moment. Tenths millions of people die every year for trivial reasons and by very unpleasant death, leaving the others to live in still worse conditions. And on the other side of the world, there live people who waste so much, that they would need several more planets to keep their style of living. Knowing that, the global financial collapse will not be a catastrophe. There will not even be anything bad about it. It will be a wake up call, a call to wake up, or die.  It is the best thing, that can happen. It has a chance of awakening the people to global responsibility, to make them refuse the blind evil of market forces which does lead us to the verge of self-destruction.
 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Is it that the teacher will guide us to a new and better economy?  If so then he's not the teacher anyone wants.  I think we'd all prefer a teacher that would turn up during... I dunno... a war perhaps... and give people the answers that will end war.
Why not? I've read an article which was entitled like "People are searching for 'the guy' to fix the economy." But he's the teacher in broadest sense, he can and will give advice on anything, from family and neighbour relations, to international relations. Some parts of his teaching have already been published and complemented by analogous opinions from various experts and politicians.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

I'm not even sure what you're asking here, can you clarify?

If I remember, MM experiment didn't produce the interference pattern. So the light had the same velocity.

 

MichaelMcF wrote:
Excuse my language but I've had enough of this conspiracy bullshit.  There is no "underground" or "official" science.  Science is science. The stuff people like you regard as "underground" is not taken as "official" because it

does not stand up to testing

.  The people most vociferous in this sort of argument are those whose ideas are disproven or whose theistic beliefs are being eroded by scientific discovery.  Just because you got told you're wrong doesn't mean people are out to get you or silence you.  Sometimes it means you're wrong

The claim that people have to act "underground" because the "establishment" doesn't like them is the defense of an ignorant child and I will treat it with nothing but scorn.

The behavior of estabilishment is something I don't want to discuss too closely while we sit in the middle of it. Our family had already noticed some unwanted and undeserved interest. And we're just a small civil association. I wouldn't want to know what happens to those who threaten the global economic and politic status quo.

MichaelMcF wrote:

It is not out of the discussion.  You have claimed that ether is part of the physical world but can't provide a physical proof of it.  If you continue to make this claim then not only does it stay in the discussion but it does so front and cenre.

All right, so where the vacuum energy, permitivity and permeability? They are far from zero values. What else than ether could it be?

MichaelMcF wrote:
And yet the esoteric science website you linked to earlier seems fine with it and accepts it as one of the major breakthroughs in science.  It even makes the claim that the possibilities opened up by relativity (and quantum mechanics, two areas it mistakenly overlaps) match esoteric teachings.

So is relativity in agreement or not?

I don't know. I had read an argument against relativity, but it was so simple and impertinent, that I can't believe that scientists could fall for it. I'll have to find some time to read that article again and then read the Wikipedia article again, and then I will know better what I don't know. And I've got a lot of other things to do.

MichaelMcF wrote:

 

Yes he should.  My colleague is from Ricany outside Prague and speaks Slovak as fluently as his home tongue.  I'll get back to you on the articles

Excellent. I hope he will enjoy the reading, it's quite interesting.

 

 

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Luminon wrote:You forgot

Luminon wrote:

You forgot what countries. One of them was USA, the big, mean, nuke-wielding global badass. It wouldn't be a good start to enter the global scene and yell "Hey, you back there, USA and Argentina! Silence, I've got something to say!" Such a scenes undermine one's authority.

 

I don't have time to address your complete post at the moment - I'll get to that later - but I'd like to take this time to let you know that I'm now regarding everythng you say as suspect.  Why?  Because you repeatedly show yourself to be unwilling or incapable of actually checking your facts.

The USA didn't fight the Falklands war  It had nothing to do with that country.  The Falklands war was between the UK and Argentina, and British victory allowed Margaret Thatchers government to sweep to victory in the 1983 election.  At best the US supplied support to the British but it still wasn't their war.

So do you still stand by your claim that the whole world was watching because the mean old US of A was involved in the war?  Or would you like to retract that statement and admit that the conflict wasn't of as much interest to the world as you seem to think?

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss


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MichaelMcF wrote:I don't

MichaelMcF wrote:

I don't have time to address your complete post at the moment - I'll get to that later - but I'd like to take this time to let you know that I'm now regarding everythng you say as suspect.  Why?  Because you repeatedly show yourself to be unwilling or incapable of actually checking your facts.

The USA didn't fight the Falklands war  It had nothing to do with that country.  The Falklands war was between the UK and Argentina, and British victory allowed Margaret Thatchers government to sweep to victory in the 1983 election.  At best the US supplied support to the British but it still wasn't their war.

So do you still stand by your claim that the whole world was watching because the mean old US of A was involved in the war?  Or would you like to retract that statement and admit that the conflict wasn't of as much interest to the world as you seem to think?

This is something in which people can't have much insight. This is why I chose a bit humorous tone. The Teacher does everything he can, to get his mission done. But his work also requires more than just the outer, worldly events. These events are sometimes only side-effects of greater events on the higher realms of existence. Attacks on this level can make the Teacher and his co-workers very busy, when they need it the least. But you're surely not interested in this nonsense, right? I just want to say, it's not as simple, as you think.


 

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Luminon wrote:No, that's

Luminon wrote:

No, that's like 10 Hz at least. But usually it's so quick, that it sounds like an air hissing under pressure. The heartbeat works independently. Sometimes it's unnoticeable and sometimes it's beating a lot, but it's always much slower and easy to distinguish. And sometimes there comes that beautiful feeling of peace and tranquility, which we all meditators love Smiling

But you're still not saying anything that convinces me that the sensations experienced aren't just natural occurences of the body.... maybe it's one of these things you have to try.  Have any of these meditations been performed under controlled conditions?  Studied by psychologists?  Doctors?

 

Luminon wrote:

I think they can't, except by hypnosis. Hypnosis is sub-conscious. Conscious perception always tries to see things as they are. But here the consciousness itself is a tool. The mind is a less or more controlled force affecting the body, and just like you can pinch yourself to feel something in return, I can stimulate some my chakra to feel something in return. Therefore, it is not a simulation of feelings, it is an affection of body, which produces the feelings afterwards.

So why couldn't the meditation sensations be a form of self-hypnosis then? 

 

Luminon wrote:

I'll try to explain. When people do T. Meditation, they receive spiritual energy and they step it down. When there is more than 6-7 people meditating, men and women should sit in separate groups, because the energy they receive is individual and further differentiated according to gender.

There are two wires going out of the tetrahedron, gold and silver. All men hold one wire, and all women hold the other. The energy goes through the wires.
You can find the most information by examining the free meditation handbook. You can find a lot of the 'tetrahedron' keywords and related information in the text. There is some interesting information, for example, that people should not sit in front of the gold disc within the tetrahedron, because this is where the output of energy (beam) is. I know from my own experience that excessive playing with spiritual energy can make people feel rather bad.

I'll take time to look at the book you linked to, but I've not found any other reference to the type of tetrahedron you seem to be discussing.  When I search for "tetrahedron meditation"  I get lots of hits for the Merkabah (sp?) technique which seems to be espoused by followers of your "teacher".

I will warn you though, your description makes it sound like a lot of pseudo-scientific bunk.
 

 

Luminon wrote:

I hope this video is better. I couldn't find it before. However, there is no airplane, it's with a clouded sky.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqo01z_KJM&feature=related

Sorry Luminon, but this doesn't cut it.  I admire the fact that they've put a time and date on there but...

It takes over an hour for anything to happen, including the set-up of the orgnoite device.  Are you suggesting that cloud cover couldn't clear in that time?  The time taken falls perfectly within a natural time scale so if the device is having an effect it's indistinguishable from a natural cause.

Also I note whenever the cameraman pans up from the device to a hole in the cloud cover it's never in a straight line.  He's always rotating/angling away from the vertical position of the device.  So it doesn't affect the clouds above it, but slight to the side?  If you're going to say that the original part of broken cloud moved with the cloud then why don't we see a trail through the clouds where the device is pointing?

Also, what the hell is the wire connected to?


 

Luminon wrote:

Well, and so the esoteric theory predicts the discovery of new states of matter and new kinds of energy, arranged by their  frequencies in octaves. It also predicts the existence of life forms based on that matter. But so far, nobody I know of tried to interpret the discoveries in terms of these octaves. Electromagnetic spectrum is a good candidate for start.

The reason no one has tried to interpret discoveries in terms of these octaves is because all discoveries have fit very well into the testable standard model.  Just in case you start to bring string theory and its higher dimensions into this - so far string theory has no testable predictions either.

Until you can make a testable prediction with a theory then its validity is always questionable.  It's that simple.  I hold string theory in higher regard than esoterics because it has a mathematical basis in its physics and at least makes attempts to show where all of its ideas come from.

 

Luminon wrote:

The humanity is still not mature. In past ages, most of people were busy with material world and esoteric knowledge was kept secret. Now it's available freely in most of bookstores and the technology starts to be efficient and sensitive enough to detect even some less material phenomena. But it's only the beginning. From the point of view of esoteric history, the world just begun to be interesting.

So esoteric science is just getting started but it's miles ahead of other theories? Er...... what?

 

Luminon wrote:

All right. The esotericist Alice Bailey created a cosmologic scheme. It consists of 7 realms (octaves) with 7 sub-realms, 49 in total. The lowest three sub-realms are called solid, liquid and gaseous, and they're the representation of our visible world. The rest of the world has higher vibration and therefore is invisible to us. Now, let's compute 3/46, which gives a result of about 6%, which is not terribly different from the 4% which is the current scientific opinion on approximate amount of visible matter/energy in the universe.

So when you made the claim that "the ratios were as predicted by..." why didn't you link me to this woman rather than a website that had none of the information on it?  If you're going to make a claim and then provide references at least make sure the references are actually what you're talking about.

It's a nice coincidence (sort of) but it doesn't hold water, and here's why.

  • The current breakdown of matter in the universe is as follows:  74% dark energy, 22% dark matter, 3.6% intergalactic gas, 0.4% stars and everything else.  If we take intergalactic plus stars as 4% we have 3 different groups - or "realms" - of matter to consider, not 7.  You're not allowed to just suggest that the others "just haven't been discovered yet" as you've not provided reasoning or proof for the original numbers (nor has Alice Bailey).
  • The states of matter which can contribute to our visible world - off the top of my head - are: solid, liquid gas, liquid crystal, super-critical fluid, super fluid, bose-einstein condensate, plasma, fermionic condensate and degenerate matter.  Not quite the 3 sub-realms she's talking about are they?

Not only that but I'm pretty sure that if Alice Bailey had predicted 300 sub-realms, thus making the solid-liquid-gas trio 1% of the total mix, the claim would then be "Alice Bailey was able to predict that there are other states of matter beyond those we can perceive in the physical world" and the number would be ignored.  She'd be forgiven for saying 1% rather than 4 because it's not an exact science, or the energies were off... or some other hand-waving, after the fact claim.

 

And to add something else to the mix - Dark Matter is the sexy subject of cosmology at the moment.  It accounts for a lot of what we see in the universe and is, by and large, becoming a majority position (from what I can see).  

BUT there are other theories out there using modifications of gravity and quantum mechanic effects to explain what we see.  Observational evidence for dark matter - like high numbers of WIMPS passing by - is currently thin on the ground so, technically, these other theories still stand a chance of usurping dark matter.  If that does happen then your friend Alice will have a lot of explaining to do.

 

Luminon wrote:

I don't know if that hypothesis is testable, but I'll try. All matter can be expressed as a wave function. A function with certain frequency of waves. Not all matter has the same frequency. The frequencies of matter are arranged in "octaves", each with 7 tones, and between octaves there is a gap in frequency.

If it's not testable then it's not a good hypothesis.  Just so you know.

I'm not a physicist but from the get go I could say two things.  First, you need a better defenition of these octaves - what are the frequency ranges of the octaves?  How are they distinguished?

How do you explain the frequency gap?  Why doesn't energy occupy these empty spaces?

 

For the record, an octave is an 8 point scale.  Any musician or linguist would be able to tell you that (Octavus = eight, Octava dies = eighth day, verse sense = stanza of eight lines)

 

Luminon wrote:

Matter is mostly empty. It can collide with other matter, because their electrons repel each other. But a difference in vibration of the atom disables the collisions, and the atoms pass through each other freely. This is why there may be other items, even whole worlds on this very place, but they're invisible. This would also explain the energy in every cubic milimeter of vacuum, which is immense.

Differences in "vibration" cause things to boil or freeze luminon*.  Atmoic vibrations are tied to the movement of electrons and molecular bonds.  Changes in these vibrations alter physical properties but they wouldn't allow whole-scale transformation into other energies.  It doesn't allow phasing or inter-dimensional travel, not matter how much the pseudo-science of comic books wants it to.

 

*that's a broad brush definition of it, I know it's not exactly accurate.


Luminon wrote:

And now the interesting part. Every life form must be less or more based on the matter with higher vibration, rather than lower. A living being lives primarily in form of the matter of higher vibration, than dense-physical. The more evolved the being is, the higher octaves of matter does it include. And when a being dies, the remaining higher part continues to live for some time. This is the potential explanation for the ancient notions of afterlife and spiritual worlds.
Also, with more control on higher octaves, there are new abilities - better emotions, greater intellect, and even intuition. Living in higher octaves is easier and different, because the time and space are more relative there and entropy is much lesser. However, it presents relatively few opportunities for work, learning and development. This is one of reasons why the life decides - or is decided, to undertake the diffculties of dense-physical form, live, die, and again.

Nothing you've just said here means anything.

What does evolution have to do with these ill-defined higher octaves?   I'm willing to put money on this being tied to the mistaken idea that Evolved = Better.  This is blatantly untrue.  Evolved = changed with time.  Nothing more.

Youv'e no evidence of a "higher part" to any matter as you've yet to define these octaves and how they interact with each other.  Couple with the lack of understanding of vibrations in molecules I've yet to see any evidence to back up your claim that life "must be less or more based on the matter with higher vibration".

Better emotions?  Really?  Are our emotions bad?  How do we define better than love or lust?

Time and space are more relative?  You've just won the prize for the most ridiculous statement ever.  Have a cookie.  Please explain how things can be more relative.

Just to repeat, nothing you said meant anything.

 

Luminon wrote:

That's not esoterics, that's simply a scam. Esoterics is represented by strictly non-profit volunteer organizations like Alice Bailey's Arcane School. No real esotericists do it for money (though they must know how to use money correctly), neither they claim about themselves that they are initiates of any degree. This is the same problem as with science and pseudoscience.

Skating dangerously close to a one true scotsman fallacy there....

 

Luminon wrote:

Even if I won't say that science is corrupt, everything around it is, and it surely influences the science. If you want some real example, think of the stem cell research. Economic, politics, business, military, and so on. People everywhere are known to be potentially corruptable, specially in my country. I don't know why priests should be exempted, and why scientists should be exempted.

Please expand on this.  What point are you trying to make about stem cell research?

 

Luminon wrote:

Truthfulness of this message is somewhat uncertain. Look at the review of that place by Gill Fry, the professional nurse. It's described quite differently. Also, the water is described as 'totally clean and pure', no sodium and magnesium bicarbonate is reported. Processing about 200-400 hectolitres per day, all the pipes would soon have to be stuffed with bicarbonate. No massive filter or distiller is described there, so they're not even trying to clean the water - it is already pure.

All the nurse's report shows is that she travelled and collected water.  Her statement that it tasted sweet and pure is not evidence of anything being present (or not) in the water.  The fact that she's a nurse doesn't add validity to her claims.

And your claim that all the pipes would be stuffed with bicarbonate is untrue.  Bicarbonate residue - or limescale - would only be required to be filtered or cleaned out if it existed in high concentrations.  Bicarbonate will happily stay in a constant flow of water without crashing out into the pipe.

 

Luminon wrote:

The truth wouldn't shine out, because it can only do so through mass media, which were always very hostile to that kind of message. Without them, the humanity as such is blind and deaf.

Conspiracy theory nonsense.  The media does report good things.  What they tend not to report is nonsense.

 

Luminon wrote:

I have heard them called recently the "shadow government". But who are they? You want me to know the greatest secret of the world? Well, I'm the guy who know the sense of life, but that's too much. Surely, we can speculate about people like Warren Buffet, Rupert Murdoch or some of the Rockefellers, but we can never be sure. But there is something I am sure about. I'm sure that they're not Masons (Masons are my fellow colleagues in esotericism), and they're not lizard people. (though maybe they made the lizards up) Our whole civilization is designed in such a way, that majority of global wealth and power is concentrated in very few hands. The system is designed in such a way, that the poor are made poorer, and the rich are still fewer and richer. There are billions of people who have nothing, but their wealth didn't went missing. It ended up under control of a few anonymous people, far from the reach of media, politics, police or military. Remember, governments are ruled by banks, and banks are ruled by one central bank. And who controls the central bank? There inevitably must be someone.

And here we have something I'm going to call the Oligarchy Fallacy, which we'll classify as a sub-division of the cosmological argument.

You've looked at the strucutre of the capitalist system come to the top and said "IT controls them but who controls IT?  There MUST be someone".  Except you've done this - Countires < Banks < IMF/World Bank/Whoever - which is wrong.  

The central banks of the world such as the IMF are made up of member states and countries that use the banks.  It's a complicatedly cyclic system but there's no one tiny group at the top controlling it all.  The myth of an all-controlling body at the top is nice because we like to think that someone's in charge but, really, once the money starts going round it's a self-sustaining system.  It's faulty and can be manipulated but there is no requirement for anyone to sit at the top controlling it all.


Luminon wrote:

Right.  But it's about us too, this is something that can't be done without our participation. The plan is to inform and inspire people in such a way, that they will rise and change the world. In some parts of the world this is already happening and Share International takes care to bring regularly the articles and reports on that topic.

So he'll only save the world if it wants to be saved.... nice little cop-out there.  "Jesus can save you but you have to let him into your heart".

The plan is to inform and inspire people to make changes?  So much like the miracles of God the effects of "The Teacher" will be indistinguishable from the efforts of people if God/The Teacher hadn't intervened in the first place?  Funny that.

 

Lumion wrote:

You're playing with words. The coverage of global media is already sufficient. Indigenous people will be left alone to make up their mind later.

I'm not playing with words, quite the opposite in fact.  I'm being careful with the words you're using.  You said the whole world had to be involved and that the mass media was controlling that message.  In 1982 the media did not affect the world like it did today.  Not everyone on the planet - the whole world - was getting any interest in the Falklands conflict.  You've yet to explain why only the Americas and Britain count as the whole world.  I'm not couting Russia and China in here because only their governments were looking and the several hundred million chinese probably couldn't care less.

Not only that but you're now saying that indigenous peoples get to make up their own minds?  Why don't they count towards the whole world?  Are they not worth the teacher's time?  If they get to make up their own minds why can't we?

If you're going to convey a message about the whole world make sure you're logically consistent.

 

Luminon wrote:

The time was right after WW2, and the discovery of nuclear bomb. But the war wasn't won completely. A part of it relocated to the middle East and eastern Europe, and part of it transformed into economic and ideologic competition. Soon it became obvious, that if we don't change ourselves radically, we will inevitably destroy ourselves by global pollution, depletion of resources, climate change and nuclear war.

So the time was right after WW2?  Why didn't he step in then to change things?  He saw the war changing into a more political one?  Then why not step in at an early phase and stop all the corruption and fighting before it got going?  You're making it sound more and more like this teacher will only appear to save us once we've done that for ourselves.

 

He reminds me of a guy I used to roleplay with.  We'd be playing some fantasy game (not necessarily D&D) and we'd all spend all the effort fighting a huge monster.  This guy would make one contribution at the very end to finally slay the beast and then he'd claim all the credit.

 

Luminon wrote:

The difference of the global economic collapse should be obvious. Quoting you, Its total collapse will still plunge the world into misery and people will be as desperate and distracted as they were during a war that didn't affect them, even more so in fact. There is something you seem to miss out. The world is already in misery. There is a catastrophe happening every moment. Tenths millions of people die every year for trivial reasons and by very unpleasant death, leaving the others to live in still worse conditions. And on the other side of the world, there live people who waste so much, that they would need several more planets to keep their style of living. Knowing that, the global financial collapse will not be a catastrophe. There will not even be anything bad about it. It will be a wake up call, a call to wake up, or die.  It is the best thing, that can happen. It has a chance of awakening the people to global responsibility, to make them refuse the blind evil of market forces which does lead us to the verge of self-destruction.

So again:  The teacher knew these things were coming - your explanation for him holding off after WW2 - and did nothing to prevent them.  So once the system that he allowed to come into place finally collapses under its flaws he's going to come in and tell us how we should have been doing it all along?  Which he could have told us at the start?

If this Maitreya is really a Christ then why didn't he appear earlier and stop all this before it started?  The idea that he hasn't appeared yet because the world is mean seems to me to be ultimately childish.
 

Luminon wrote:

Why not? I've read an article which was entitled like "People are searching for 'the guy' to fix the economy." But he's the teacher in broadest sense, he can and will give advice on anything, from family and neighbour relations, to international relations. Some parts of his teaching have already been published and complemented by analogous opinions from various experts and politicians.

 

And what happens if the capitalist system doesn't collapse?  What you're forgetting is that capitalism by its very nature is prone to periods of boom and bust.  It can't sustain one without the other.  There's no guarantee that the whole system is going to tumble down (and you've only got half a year left of your 20009 prediction....).

If it doesn't happen what then?  Is he no longer the man to fix the economy?  He'll then be the man that needs to come in and fix "global problem X"?

 

MichaelMcF wrote:

If I remember, MM experiment didn't produce the interference pattern. So the light had the same velocity.

Yes the sagnac effect disproved the ballistic theory which was in agreement with the MM experiment.  This is countered by the Lorentz contractions - these are why there is no sagnac effect in the MM experiment.  It's simple and can be derived from first princples of physics.

 

Luminon wrote:

The behavior of estabilishment is something I don't want to discuss too closely while we sit in the middle of it. Our family had already noticed some unwanted and undeserved interest. And we're just a small civil association. I wouldn't want to know what happens to those who threaten the global economic and politic status quo.

False connection.  Just because someone is persecuting you it doesn't mean that's what is happening everywhere.

 

Luminon wrote:

All right, so where the vacuum energy, permitivity and permeability? They are far from zero values. What else than ether could it be?

I'm not dismissing this but I'd like you to expand this into a more coherent question.  Right now I'm not sure what you're asking or saying.

 

Luminon wrote:

I don't know. I had read an argument against relativity, but it was so simple and impertinent, that I can't believe that scientists could fall for it. I'll have to find some time to read that article again and then read the Wikipedia article again, and then I will know better what I don't know. And I've got a lot of other things to do.

Fair enough.

 

Luminon wrote:

Excellent. I hope he will enjoy the reading, it's quite interesting.

 

My friend has had a read through that site and he's told me that much of it is very questionable and he's not surprised that these things are in a local magazine rather than a scientific journal.

His opinion of the article about the MM is simply this:

"All the guy is saying is that you get different fringe patterns if you use the speed of light in atmosphere (which is c/1.0003) than in vacuum.  He's then saying that the initial results of the MM experiment may not be true, because MM used c rather than this number, so there may be other explanations.  What he doesn't convincingly show is that the fringe shift associated with c/1.0003 is significantly different enough from the value obtained with c to come to another conclusion" - in other words, while the numbers may vary there's nothing to stop the conclusion remaining the same.  My friend thinks whoever wrote this is badly interpreting his own numbers.

 

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss


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Luminon wrote:MichaelMcF

Luminon wrote:

MichaelMcF wrote:

I don't have time to address your complete post at the moment - I'll get to that later - but I'd like to take this time to let you know that I'm now regarding everythng you say as suspect.  Why?  Because you repeatedly show yourself to be unwilling or incapable of actually checking your facts.

The USA didn't fight the Falklands war  It had nothing to do with that country.  The Falklands war was between the UK and Argentina, and British victory allowed Margaret Thatchers government to sweep to victory in the 1983 election.  At best the US supplied support to the British but it still wasn't their war.

So do you still stand by your claim that the whole world was watching because the mean old US of A was involved in the war?  Or would you like to retract that statement and admit that the conflict wasn't of as much interest to the world as you seem to think?

This is something in which people can't have much insight. This is why I chose a bit humorous tone. The Teacher does everything he can, to get his mission done. But his work also requires more than just the outer, worldly events. These events are sometimes only side-effects of greater events on the higher realms of existence. Attacks on this level can make the Teacher and his co-workers very busy, when they need it the least. But you're surely not interested in this nonsense, right? I just want to say, it's not as simple, as you think.

 

As empty statements go it was a very nice one - bravo for that - but it didn't answer my question at all.  You stated that the teacher couldn't come because of the Falkands war.  I stated that the world wasn't as interested a you think because it was a range war between 2 countries.  Your counter, however humorous, was that the world was interested because one of these two countries was the USA.

I've shown this to be wrong.  Please defend your statement without wandering off and hiding in "other events" and higher realms of existence.

Forget Jesus, the stars died so that you could be here
- Lawrence Krauss


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MichaelMcF wrote: But you're

MichaelMcF wrote:
But you're still not saying anything that convinces me that the sensations experienced aren't just natural occurences of the body.... maybe it's one of these things you have to try. Have any of these meditations been performed under controlled conditions? Studied by psychologists? Doctors?
Well, these are natural conditions, and aren't. There is a certain kind of tinnitus, which mostly occurs to small children, people in middle-age crisis and during that meditation. Otherwise not. There is also this feeling of excitation within the frontal lobe... It's often even pleasant, it feels like a massage of brain or sexual teasing, except that there is nothing sexual about it. It's not a surfacial feeling, the front of the head is filled with activity, the feeling of body is disembodied. The forehead chakra vortex processes energy and the throat slightly tingles, as the throat chakra also does it's job. It's using the brain and the body in such a way, that people normally don't do, and yet it is our natural ability, which waits to be awakened and trained. I knew a surreal artist who reported me similar feelings in times of his inspiration. Which gives a lot of sense in esoterics. The original inspiration does not come from the brain, but from the soul, through energetic centres like head chakras, which therefore must have an increased activity, which produces a specific feelings.

Also, there is a possibly relevant information. During meditation, there almost certainly is an increased blood flow and neural activity in frontal lobe, hypophysis and epiphysis. Both glands are supposed to be gradually "activated", which basically makes one clairvoyant. As for the doctors, for that we've got very little information. But one honorary member of our group is a young woman with two university degrees. She works for a laboratory for brain research in Los Angeles. Which is exactly what I need. Her visa is ending and she will have to return home for at least 2 years before she can return. I will surely consult everything with her when she pays us a visit. She is such a spiritual person, she does a lot of mountain climbing and meditation (also in mountains). I'm pretty sure she is just as interested in these questions as I am, but the company she works for has it's own schedule of laboratory work.
MichaelMcF wrote:
So why couldn't the meditation sensations be a form of self-hypnosis then?
Because nobody hypnotizes themselves there. The people just concentrate all attention on their forehead, they don't make any effort to produce these feelings. Nobody instructs them as for what to feel, because that's not the point. The purpose is to stay in such a special state of consciousness, where there is as little of thoughts, as possible. The consciousness must be clear, what we want to avoid is thinking about what we did today, last week, what was in TV, what we had read, or what we will want to do tomorrow. If that happens, and it does, we refocus the attention back to ajna chakra, nothing more is needed, and nothing less.
MichaelMcF wrote:
I'll take time to look at the book you linked to, but I've not found any other reference to the type of tetrahedron you seem to be discussing. When I search for "tetrahedron meditation" I get lots of hits for the Merkabah (sp?) technique which seems to be espoused by followers of your "teacher". I will warn you though, your description makes it sound like a lot of pseudo-scientific bunk.
No reference? The book here (http://share-international.org/books/?d=TMNA) contains dozens of tetrahedron keywords and also some interesting informations. For example, photographing an original tetrahedron in action might produce a significant wisps of light on the photograph, as for the energy which it transforms. These energies get caught on photographs quite often. The book is most related to that device from the page 75 to 95 and onwards. As for the merkaba, that's a different thing altogether. In my opinion, merkaba is today our last problem and merkaba meditation is a bunkum or irrelevant thing. I have never seen anything about it in Creme's books or other relevant esoteric literature. Such a things are supposed to take care of themselves automatically, not that we, personalities, must make it spin by our effort. Btw, the Teacher did not come to gather followers, as he says. His "followers" are trying to put him into their pockets, and they forget that the message is about the world in crisis and their fellow men, not about following another idol.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Luminon wrote:
I hope this video is better. I couldn't find it before. However, there is no airplane, it's with a clouded sky. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqo01z_KJM&feature=related
Sorry Luminon, but this doesn't cut it. I admire the fact that they've put a time and date on there but... It takes over an hour for anything to happen, including the set-up of the orgnoite device. Are you suggesting that cloud cover couldn't clear in that time? The time taken falls perfectly within a natural time scale so if the device is having an effect it's indistinguishable from a natural cause.
That's weird. Once the device is assembled, it takes about 5 minutes before right above the device is a gap in clouds. Then it continues for about anoter 5 minutes.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Also I note whenever the cameraman pans up from the device to a hole in the cloud cover it's never in a straight line. He's always rotating/angling away from the vertical position of the device. So it doesn't affect the clouds above it, but slight to the side? If you're going to say that the original part of broken cloud moved with the cloud then why don't we see a trail through the clouds where the device is pointing?
But there is a trail, at 5:24 in the video. I hope I'm not hallucinating. Also, it seems to me like a straight line, on 4:44, for example. And according to the video, it takes less than a hour before the sky is totally clear. This is a good result, I think. I don't understand what you see.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Also, what the hell is the wire connected to?
Electricity source, I guess. One wire is perhaps a bit weird, but from my study of MEG it's obvious that these things work a bit differently than a standard circuit. According to this theory, a dipole of the circuit is, what wastes the energy Smiling
MichaelMcF wrote:
The reason no one has tried to interpret discoveries in terms of these octaves is because all discoveries have fit very well into the testable standard model. Just in case you start to bring string theory and its higher dimensions into this - so far string theory has no testable predictions either. Until you can make a testable prediction with a theory then its validity is always questionable. It's that simple. I hold string theory in higher regard than esoterics because it has a mathematical basis in its physics and at least makes attempts to show where all of its ideas come from.
Well, you just brought me an idea. But as for that, later. I don't know, how to create a testable theory. It might be very diffcult or very simple, I don't know. If I'd magically become a scientist, or if a scientist would have my esoteric knowledge and experience, then such a hypothetical person could perhaps make a testable predictions, and if not, then not because of ignorance in one of the two areas. I'll be probably always dependent on someone who will introduce me to the scientific ways.
MichaelMcF wrote:
So esoteric science is just getting started but it's miles ahead of other theories? Er...... what?
The esoteric science is just starting to become practically manifested. For ages, the esotericism was a domain of relatively few people. Only they were able to practice it, because it requires to be very advanced and intelligent, to meditate a lot, and to have a great control over the body and emotions. For these people, a description of various planes of existence was something like a road map to them, but their neighbours were rather busy with farming, herding, craftsmanship and hitting each other with clubs or swords. But every esoteric knowledge will be eventually made exoteric, thus publically available and understood. When the existence of higher realms will become exoteric to the scientists, they will be able to develop a technology using these new possibilities. Most of sci-fi literature is today very primitive, compared to what awaits the science when the laws of higher realms will be technologically employed.
MichaelMcF wrote:
So when you made the claim that "the ratios were as predicted by..." why didn't you link me to this woman rather than a website that had none of the information on it? If you're going to make a claim and then provide references at least make sure the references are actually what you're talking about.
That woman is long dead and I don't have any her books in electronic form nor online. However, this scheme of realms of existence is pretty much standard and probably much older. This scheme shows equivalent schemes of various traditions, the Theosophic column is my favorite, that's the one I mean.
MichaelMcF wrote:
It's a nice coincidence (sort of) but it doesn't hold water, and here's why. * The current breakdown of matter in the universe is as follows: 74% dark energy, 22% dark matter, 3.6% intergalactic gas, 0.4% stars and everything else. If we take intergalactic plus stars as 4% we have 3 different groups - or "realms" - of matter to consider, not 7. You're not allowed to just suggest that the others "just haven't been discovered yet" as you've not provided reasoning or proof for the original numbers (nor has Alice Bailey).
Well, that's exactly the case. Every realm has 7 sub-realms, or 7 forms of matter. Whether it's a sub-realm or just another form of matter, that depends probably on perception of the inhabitants and some special properties of the realms. We don't see the higher 4 - the etheric world. However, some physical phenomena do affect it. For example, nuclear fission, unfortunately.
MichaelMcF wrote:
* The states of matter which can contribute to our visible world - off the top of my head - are: solid, liquid gas, liquid crystal, super-critical fluid, super fluid, bose-einstein condensate, plasma, fermionic condensate and degenerate matter. Not quite the 3 sub-realms she's talking about are they?
If you remember the esotericscience.org, Bose-Einstein condensate is already mentioned there. As for the others, etheric realms are technically also physical. This is where some of that menagerie of matter can belong. But not necessarily. Esoteric writings are not that extremely precise in scientific details, they're about personal development, not modern physics. For the purpose of evolution of consciousness, they're precise enough. 3 basic states of dense matter + 4 etheric must be taken as a superficial division. Esotericism is very broad, but does not go into the specialized depth on one subject, unlike the contemporary science does. Science is narrow and specialized, esotericism is broad and general. This is why the esotericism is ahead of science, but only superficially.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Not only that but I'm pretty sure that if Alice Bailey had predicted 300 sub-realms, thus making the solid-liquid-gas trio 1% of the total mix, the claim would then be "Alice Bailey was able to predict that there are other states of matter beyond those we can perceive in the physical world" and the number would be ignored. She'd be forgiven for saying 1% rather than 4 because it's not an exact science, or the energies were off... or some other hand-waving, after the fact claim.
Well, if that helps, then consider it as the important underline of the claim. You shouldn't want an exact data from the esoteric literature. It's supposed to be read and presented on lectures. If an esoteric book would be full of theoretical physics, all people would soon empty the hall and those remaining would sleep. It's already diffcult enough to read.
MichaelMcF wrote:
And to add something else to the mix - Dark Matter is the sexy subject of cosmology at the moment. It accounts for a lot of what we see in the universe and is, by and large, becoming a majority position (from what I can see). BUT there are other theories out there using modifications of gravity and quantum mechanic effects to explain what we see. Observational evidence for dark matter - like high numbers of WIMPS passing by - is currently thin on the ground so, technically, these other theories still stand a chance of usurping dark matter. If that does happen then your friend Alice will have a lot of explaining to do.
All right. I have to say, I really doubt it. My personal experience is, that something specific fitting on the description of dark matter (and ether) indeed exists. And I'm not the only one. If you want to know how it "looks" or feels like, then this image is the best graphical description I currently have. (though it might be better) Imagine, that it is your (my) hand and that there is something like that around it, flowing, swirling, precipitating. It may also have a form like this, or this, and so on. It's just for an idea about it's naturally 'ethereal' consistence, otherwise it can have any shape in which it is being shaped.
 
MichaelMcF wrote:
If it's not testable then it's not a good hypothesis. Just so you know. I'm not a physicist but from the get go I could say two things. First, you need a better defenition of these octaves - what are the frequency ranges of the octaves? How are they distinguished?
I've been thinking about it. The best I could come up with so far, was that it's a vibration of atomic core, or better said, all the particles, in the same frequency. But the idea I mentioned earlier was, that it should go down on the string level. Vibrating strings of the most fundamental particles could determine to what realm the particle does belong. However, it is sure, that it has something to do with waves. The subtle matter behaves to dense matter just like they would be radio waves of different frequency, they don't collide with each other. Of course they don't have to be purely waves, but at least their electron covers may behave like that. They might repel only with electrons which vibrate in the same way, the same frequency.
This could give sense: look at this website and the big writing, which says:
ELECTRONS ARE WAVES.

MichaelMcF wrote:
How do you explain the frequency gap? Why doesn't energy occupy these empty spaces?
Well, this is, I'd say, a natural property of this world. This is the way how things already are, just like many natural objects have the golden ratio, Fibonacci's sequence, sacred geometry or fractal geometry within them. Some people can "explain" that by divine design, but we both know the watchmaker argument and it's refutation.
MichaelMcF wrote:
For the record, an octave is an 8 point scale. Any musician or linguist would be able to tell you that (Octavus = eight, Octava dies = eighth day, verse sense = stanza of eight lines)
I know, it's rather a septave. But isn't it like the last tone of octave is the first tone of another octave? C, D, E, F, G, A, H, C, that's it, if I remember. In that case, it would be more like 7.
But octave has primarily no linguistic meaning of the number 8. According to Wikipedia:
In music, an octave (Perfect octave on C.midPlay (help·info), is the interval between one musical pitch and another with half or double its frequency. The octave "relationship" is a natural phenomenon which has been referred to as the 'basic miracle of music,'" the use of which is "common in most musical systems."[1] It may be derived from the harmonic series as the interval between the first and second harmonics.
You see, there is nothing unnatural about octaves or harmonic series. The whole universe, including the invisible realms, is possibly arranged in harmonic series.

MichaelMcF wrote:
Differences in "vibration" cause things to boil or freeze luminon*. Atmoic vibrations are tied to the movement of electrons and molecular bonds. Changes in these vibrations alter physical properties but they wouldn't allow whole-scale transformation into other energies. It doesn't allow phasing or inter-dimensional travel, not matter how much t it to.
I meant the "vibration" as an inner property of these particles, as described above, not their relationship to each other. Possibly the strings' vibration. It is something that all our "material" atoms do practically equally or similarly enough, so there is no difference between them, unlike it can be with temperature. By the way, what is the frequency of silicon oscillators, cesium atoms, or something like that? It's used in clock signal generators. Could it be that atomic property I'm searching for?
MichaelMcF wrote:
Nothing you've just said here means anything. What does evolution have to do with these ill-defined higher octaves? I'm willing to put money on this being tied to the mistaken idea that Evolved = Better. This is blatantly untrue. Evolved = changed with time. Nothing more.
Well, that would be too complicated to describe. You're right as for the physical bodies. But in evolution of consciousness, evolved indeed means better. Unless it applies to the concept of "involution", which is not nice from our point of view, but necessary. The esoteric theory says (and practically demonstrates) about the truly eugenic practices which the soul does with carefully planned gradual developing (and evolving) of it's vehicle, the personality.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Youv'e no evidence of a "higher part" to any matter as you've yet to define these octaves and how they interact with each other. Couple with the lack of understanding of vibrations in molecules I've yet to see any evidence to back up your claim that life "must be less or more based on the matter with higher vibration".
I indeed have no evidence, and even if yes, I couldn't show it to you. I only have my own sensitivity to the "subtle matter" and about a dozen or two people around who also developed that kind of sensitivity, less or more. Even in this very moment, I feel it. I'd describe it as a "spatial touch", because etheric body extends several centimeters beyond the skin, and it also fills the body.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Better emotions? Really? Are our emotions bad? How do we define better than love or lust?
Not exactly better, but very numerous and diverse, and also very well expressed. We have become so good at emotions, that most of people today are dominated by them, it's like a drug. But it is something we share with animals to a great degree. Emotions doesn't make us human, the mind does.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Time and space are more relative? You've just won the prize for the most ridiculous statement ever. Have a cookie. Please explain how things can be more relative.
I don't exactly understand how the space is relative, only the time. Time does not exist. There is no cosmological variable of "time", which could be changed forward or backwards. The concept of time is created by our brains, as an illusion. There is no law of how long should one day or one cycle last. When we perceive them as moments, we do not speed up the whole universe, only that illusion. What we perceive as a time, are in fact countless microscopic cycles of physical processes, like entropy. Going back in time would mean to reverse somehow all these processes, to act against them by stronger opposite energy (force), but that would perhaps require a greater energy than the universe has... Time is not a real 4th dimension in which we can move, simply because it does not multiply the remaining 3 dimensions. No matter how do we move in time, we're in exactly the same place in the universe, and it's still the same and equally big. In comparison, the true 4th dimension is the inner frequency of particles which divides the universe into realms, or octaves of being. We have one, dense-physical universe, and if the observer moves upwards in the frequency, then there is another realm in full size of the universe (maybe bigger), containing etheric, astral or manasic matter, and so on. It does multiply the 3D world. This philosophy might look like based on esoteric theory and mystical experiences. However, the one who definined this philosophy at last, is an amateur scientist, Peter Lynds. It is not a new model of theoretical physics, it's rather a philosophy, which yet must be expressed in some equations. Well, and because physicists have an opinion that space and time are somehow interrelated, (which I don't quite understand) then space might be relative as well. That's just my humble, unsure guess.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Just to repeat, nothing you said meant anything.
Of course it means, just not to you. In my experience, people with more figurative thinking would understand practically everything.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Luminon wrote:
That's not esoterics, that's simply a scam. Esoterics is represented by strictly non-profit volunteer organizations like Alice Bailey's Arcane School. No real esotericists do it for money (though they must know how to use money correctly), neither they claim about themselves that they are initiates of any degree. This is the same problem as with science and pseudoscience.
Skating dangerously close to a one true scotsman fallacy there....
Yes, but this is how it is. There are less and more imperfect scientists, esotericists, people, everywhere. There are scientists who support the creationism - and is that a 'no true scientist' fallacy? In esotericism, it's important that people work on developing their virtues and eliminating their weaknesses. But there's no way how to enforce it. Theoretically, a scientist is a decent scientist if he keeps with scientific method, does the work carefully and doesn't steal the discoveries. It's just a work. But esotericism is a way of life. You're as good esotericist, as you are good as a person. Therefore, it is much harder, it's 24 hours per day (we must also watch out for our dreams Smiling ) there is no official, unified education for the job, and even no clear individual tasks given out. We have to develop our intuition and watch out for signs of what to do. It works, but it's not easy. And besides that, there is everything else demanded from a normal person, priorities like work, family, and housekeeping. The point is, as you see, that it is very easy to be bad at esotericism, and with some practice it's easy to tell who's good and who's not.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Please expand on this. What point are you trying to make about stem cell research?
It's not a big point, but it's a good demonstration on how a science can be influenced by outer interests. In the case of stem cell research, it may be ideology among the people, or careers of the religional dignitaries. Isn't that a conspiracy?
MichaelMcF wrote:
All the nurse's report shows is that she travelled and collected water. Her statement that it tasted sweet and pure is not evidence of anything being present (or not) in the water. The fact that she's a nurse doesn't add validity to her claims.
What adds validity to her claims, is that she was there personally. The report what you showed looked in my opinion like they would have a completely different sample of water. You provided no evidence that the water was authetnic. Also, the existence of the archive on that ranch, full of records of healed people, must have some significance. Serious diseases doesn't usually just disappear, this is why they're called serious.
MichaelMcF wrote:
And your claim that all the pipes would be stuffed with bicarbonate is untrue. Bicarbonate residue - or limescale - would only be required to be filtered or cleaned out if it existed in high concentrations. Bicarbonate will happily stay in a constant flow of water without crashing out into the pipe.
OK, I admit that, I don't know enough about it. I don't know what amount of bicarbonate could be tasted in the water. Here I have a pure water, maybe containing some iron. It doesn't even damage the washing machine.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Luminon wrote:
The truth wouldn't shine out, because it can only do so through mass media, which were always very hostile to that kind of message. Without them, the humanity as such is blind and deaf.
Conspiracy theory nonsense. The media does report good things. What they tend not to report is nonsense.
Quite opposite, I'd say. The media does report good things - like that a cat befriended a mouse, or that a goode adopted a dozen of puppies, or something like that. This is the kind of good messages on local most popular commercial TV. Maybe it is good, but it's also irrelevant. The rest of the news is filled with facts, but they're far from messages of hope, it's mostly about accidents, crimes, political misadventures, scandals, and so on. There are of course worldwidely important events, though most of them is also grim. But never there was a worldwide message of hope, responsibility and changing the global disorder of things. Not even UFO is taken seriously on the TV news, although there have been many unexplainable sightings in this country. (I mean, all common causes have been excluded) Therefore, even the possibility of being ashamed for our global disorder in front of the extraterrestrials is taken from the people.
MichaelMcF wrote:
And here we have something I'm going to call the Oligarchy Fallacy, which we'll classify as a sub-division of the cosmological argument. You've looked at the strucutre of the capitalist system come to the top and said "IT controls them but who controls IT? There MUST be someone". Except you've done this - Countires < Banks < IMF/World Bank/Whoever - which is wrong. The central banks of the world such as the IMF are made up of member states and countries that use the banks. It's a complicatedly cyclic system but there's no one tiny group at the top controlling it all. The myth of an all-controlling body at the top is nice because we like to think that someone's in charge but, really, once the money starts going round it's a self-sustaining system. It's faulty and can be manipulated but there is no requirement for anyone to sit at the top controlling it all.
Here I think you omitted the fact, that people are fundamentally different from their system. Almost everyone on this planet wants to be healthy, to live in peace, to have a family with healthy children, to live in an aesthetic environment, to learn new interesting things, to work as they like, to realize themselves, and so on. Why then is the world so different for billions of people? What is the factor acting against the needs of people? Who invented it all? Certainly not the so-called common people, this requires some seriously fucked-up mind. Our history is full of power-hungry individuals who enjoyed controlling the whole nations. The modern age with the wonders of technology, globalization and commercialism doesn't make this ageless, though minor human tendency to disappear. Quite oppositely, it gives it the wings. But the way out is not in arresting or killing the whole dozen of Majestic 12, or all 33 of leading Masons, or all 666 of the Illuminati, or whoever, that wouldn't be a permanent solution. It's necessary to make people aware, responsible for each other and active.
MichaelMcF wrote:
So he'll only save the world if it wants to be saved.... nice little cop-out there. "Jesus can save you but you have to let him into your heart".
Excuse me for the exclamations, but OF COURSE!!!! He is a teacher. A teacher doesn't do homework for the students, neither he controls their lives, once they become adults, which is the purpose behind education. A teacher teaches and answers questions. M. is not a religional leader, global president, or secret world ruler. He's a teacher, in the broadest sense. His work is in maturing stage of the humanity.
MichaelMcF wrote:
The plan is to inform and inspire people to make changes? So much like the miracles of God the effects of "The Teacher" will be indistinguishable from the efforts of people if God/The Teacher hadn't intervened in the first place? Funny that.
Of course. The purpose is to teach the people act on behalf of themselves and their fellow men. It's not about bossing them around. We should be self-reliant and do the necessary things because they're necessary, not because a godlike mysterious figure suggests them. A Master never orders, never demands anything, or presumes who should do what. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar. This is our task. The disciples are informed what is necessary to do for the world, but what and how they will do, depends entirely on them. Therefore it is necessary to say, that Masters always expect only average results.
MichaelMcF wrote:
I'm not playing with words, quite the opposite in fact. I'm being careful with the words you're using. You said the whole world had to be involved and that the mass media was controlling that message. In 1982 the media did not affect the world like it did today. Not everyone on the planet - the whole world - was getting any interest in the Falklands conflict. You've yet to explain why only the Americas and Britain count as the whole world. I'm not couting Russia and China in here because only their governments were looking and the several hundred million chinese probably couldn't care less.
My information is, that as far as M. is concerned, the global mass media are a communicatory organ of the humanity. But why should it be simple, when it can be complicated, right?
MichaelMcF wrote:
Not only that but you're now saying that indigenous peoples get to make up their own minds? Why don't they count towards the whole world? Are they not worth the teacher's time? If they get to make up their own minds why can't we?
Indigenous people which I meant, currently can not partcipate on our global situation. I mean, bushmen in Kalahari would hardly demonstrate and wave with transparents in english language, and local government would hardly report that event. Stone age is not quite optimal for what we discuss here. Inevitably, what they will ever learn about the ongoing events is incomplete. On the other side, we will have all information and we'll make up our mind based on it.
MichaelMcF wrote:
So the time was right after WW2? Why didn't he step in then to change things? He saw the war changing into a more political one? Then why not step in at an early phase and stop all the corruption and fighting before it got going? You're making it sound more and more like this teacher will only appear to save us once we've done that for ourselves.
Did you ever hear about a free will? Masters are not omnipotent. Even they are still in development, and human free will is sacred to them. We can be grateful for that, otherwise there would be very little of space for human freedom. Yes, maybe M. could step in the world like an elephant into porcelain, but that would make a world full of slaves and devotees, and that would be evil. Remember, a teacher doesn't do homework for the students, neither he's living their lives for them. There was one part of Futuama, where Bender was for a time abandoned in space. A two civillizations developed on him, one on his front, and one on his butt. Whatever he tried to do for them directly (as a benevolent god) resulted in disasters. And so there was the punchline, something like, being a god means that whatever you do, people shouldn't even know you're there.
MichaelMcF wrote:
He reminds me of a guy I used to roleplay with. We'd be playing some fantasy game (not necessarily D&D) and we'd all spend all the effort fighting a huge monster. This guy would make one contribution at the very end to finally slay the beast and then he'd claim all the credit.
Well, except of that the executive power of humanity is tragically idle. Just look at Millenium Development Goals. But M. is that kind of guy who works behind the scenes where he can take no credit, and publically he will give advices, while common people of goodwill will work to make the world better. He won't do for us, anything that people couldn't do by their own effort, once they get organized.
MichaelMcF wrote:
So again: The teacher knew these things were coming - your explanation for him holding off after WW2 - and did nothing to prevent them. So once the system that he allowed to come into place finally collapses under its flaws he's going to come in and tell us how we should have been doing it all along? Which he could have told us at the start?
I'm sure that he did everything that he could within the law of action and reaction, and human free will. Which was not enough, because the global superpowers, USA and Soviet Union started competing so joyfully. Masters have tied hands - they can only work behind the scenes, and only human will can invite them forward to work openly. That kind of events like when so many journalists came on meeting in 1982. That's for them like they would win a jackpot. That allowed more Masters to step out of Himalayas and take their places in big cities. Also, the Transmission Meditation groups are essential. They transform the energies to be usable for humanity, which again, gives the Masters more possibilities.
MichaelMcF wrote:
If this Maitreya is really a Christ then why didn't he appear earlier and stop all this before it started? The idea that he hasn't appeared yet because the world is mean seems to me to be ultimately childish.
That would be for a longer lecture, actually. The world is mean, that's a fact. And it has a damn right to be mean, even if it would mean the destruction of it's civilization. That's the free will, which is sacred. To change that free will non-violently, means to act behind the scenes and to educate the humanity that we're about to destroy ourselves, if we keep being mean. Do we like it? No? Well, then let's do something about it! Now we have something that wasn't here in all these millenia before, things like GreenPeace, United Nations, Kyoto protocol, Chart of basic human rights, and so on. Without these important signs, Masters couldn't even think of having a maturing humanity they could start to work with.
MichaelMcF wrote:
And what happens if the capitalist system doesn't collapse? What you're forgetting is that capitalism by its very nature is prone to periods of boom and bust. It can't sustain one without the other. There's no guarantee that the whole system is going to tumble down (and you've only got half a year left of your 20009 prediction....). If it doesn't happen what then? Is he no longer the man to fix the economy? He'll then be the man that needs to come in and fix "global problem X"?
I don't say that capitalism will collapse. (at least I hope I didn't say it, that's a nonsense) What will inevitably collapse, is the fictive, speculative economy. In electronic form, it has no limitations at all. But real world has limited resources. Therefore, a total breakdown is inevitable, the question is when, not if. As for the when, I hope that I didn't cathegorically state that the financial system will collapse in 2009. Currently, Uranus, the revolutionary planet, is in Pisces, just like it was since 2001. This means something like "revolution in spirituality", and this is what filled the book stores with New Age books of various quality. But Uranus in Aries means something else. It's still a revolution, but a big one, rather a massacre. I have to say, that a massacre among old, outdated structures and institutions. Besides the financial system, things like school system or police will also have problems. But there is one more factor which makes 2010 uncertain. Uranus will be in Aries only for a first half of that year, then it will return to Pisces again. Then, starting with 2011 it will return to Aries and stay there for 7 years. So, I can't be sure if a half year of Uranus in Aries will be enough to bring down the global financial system. However, I have already withdrawn most of my savings from the bank and entrusted them to the Mattress Inc. It has guaranteed only 7% inflation per year, while there are going to be some radical deflations of fictional money.
MichaelMcF wrote:
MichaelMcF wrote:
If I remember, MM experiment didn't produce the interference pattern. So the light had the same velocity.
Yes the sagnac effect disproved the ballistic theory which was in agreement with the MM experiment. This is countered by the Lorentz contractions - these are why there is no sagnac effect in the MM experiment. It's simple and can be derived from first princples of physics.
Well, then I'm confused, because I don't understand Lorentz contractions. I vaguely remember an article in which a physicists travel in a parallel trains and they throw a 1 meter long staff from one train to another, and every time they throw throw this 1 meter long staff, it's somewhat shorter. It also involved a lot of skepticism and sarcasm.
MichaelMcF wrote:
False connection. Just because someone is persecuting you it doesn't mean that's what is happening everywhere.
Nope, not a false connection. The type of "democratic" government and culture we have here is globally abundant. Therefore, it can happen in any similar country, like USA, for example. USA exported the "democracy" all around the world.
MichaelMcF wrote:
Luminon wrote:
All right, so where the vacuum energy, permitivity and permeability? They are far from zero values. What else than ether could it be?
I'm not dismissing this but I'd like you to expand this into a more coherent question. Right now I'm not sure what you're asking or saying.
Here I'd quote the website of cheniere.org:
Question: Where does all electromagnetic (EM) field energy and all EM potential energy come from in the first place? Answer: From the vacuum all around us. A Nobel prize was awarded in 1957 for substantiating the extraction process. — Tom Bearden referring to the work of Lee and Yang (Note: Conventional academic theory implicitly just assumes that the source charges freely create, from nothing at all, all the flowing EM real energy in the Universe.)
End of quote.
And this is a partially quote, partially paraphrase from another article, from your "favorite" magazine.
"The empty space (vacuum) has at least two observable properties: dielectric constant (permitivity) and permeability. But if the empty space is really empty, why it has these properties? If it's filled with "emptiness", only a fool could claim that it can have any other properties than volume. But because it has them, it seems that it contains a rejected entity, which was in 19th century called ether!"

Paraphrasing the article further (removing some degree of sarcasm):
The speed of light is determined by permitivity and permeability of vacuum. Similarly, the speed of sound in a steel rod (using analogous equation with the speed of light) is determined by elasticity and density of the steel. The speed of sound is determined only by properties of the material, and no physicist will claim that he can remove the steel rod and keep the properties and therefore the constant speed of sound. However, it seems that they claim the same thing about the speed of light. Special theory of relativity and Lorentz theory of ether contraction says, that the speed of light is independent on the speed of it's source. But the same independence matches for waves spreading in any medium, it is not characteristic for an entity spreading in empty space in a ballistic path. IOW, if we shoot from a gun, then light behaves as sound waves of the gunshot spreading in the air, not as a bullet. But if we cancel the ether (or air), then the observed independence of light speed on the speed of it's source has no logical basis. It would require a cooperation of some sort of "magic", otherwise the light would have no way to determine how fast it should move. Any alternative theory? (note: waving a hand or argumentation about time-space will not do the job)

"If we examine the Dirac's approach to creation of supplement particles from high-energy photons, we will realize that Dirac, to finish his mathemathical work, had first to think up "a sea of negative energy permeating all the universe." If we leave out the fact that "negative energy" is in Dirac's sense unexplainable and absurd, then what is the difference between a "sea of negative energy" and ether? Both says, that in a space, which is per directivum assumed to be empty, "something" exists!"

The larger rest of the article contains two problems - an extreme number of particles in interaction, and a problem of gravity being reputedly produced by these particles. Further there are two interpretations of quantum theory. I am lazy and tired to translate or paraphrase all that. Perhaps only a bit... Let's say, if the gravity is mediated by exchange of gravitons, why the objects are attracted? If two people throw each other a ball, the ball only mediates an eccentric force, whether it is thrown or caught. The same thing should work for gravitons. How it is possible, that particles supposedly heading in one direction attract the object in the opposite direction? Isn't that absurd?

MichaelMcF wrote:
His opinion of the article about the MM is simply this: "All the guy is saying is that you get different fringe patterns if you use the speed of light in atmosphere (which is c/1.0003) than in vacuum. He's then saying that the initial results of the MM experiment may not be true, because MM used c rather than this number, so there may be other explanations. What he doesn't convincingly show is that the fringe shift associated with c/1.0003 is significantly different enough from the value obtained with c to come to another conclusion" - in other words, while the numbers may vary there's nothing to stop the conclusion remaining the same. My friend thinks whoever wrote this is badly interpreting his own numbers.
Well, I thought that this should be made obvious by pressurizing and de-pressurizing the pressure chamber through which the beam passes in that scheme. But I guess, a scheme and one article is not enough to prove it.

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.