I know, you guys are just smarter than the vast majority of people in all of human history who have believed and do believe that there is a God. The rest of us, well, we're just crazy. [...]

So, for the sake of this argument, it no longer matters that the majority of the world is practicing blasphemy. By your own admission, you'd want a missionary to save you from those false religions, so using them as a defense of your particular beliefs seems ironic. Your argument is called an appeal to popularity. Favor popularity over reason and evidence. It's not even homogenous popularity, but an adamantly divided and mutually exclusive set of subcategories (that you'd love to convert, but you're instead counting as allies).

Do I even need to go over some of the beliefs people have held in the past that have mercifully fallen out of favor?

DUDE! Stop thinking so much!!!!!!! "an appeal to popularity" You have a label for what I just said, too????? Seriously. This is becoming comical.  Come to my church sometime. We have fun. (Having fun isn't a sin!!!!)

 In all seriousness, I'm thinking you might be over-thinking this whole god/religion thing.

There already is this anonymous quote:

That's clearly not what I said. My statement was carefully qualified, and you inflated it into a bizarre generalization.

Well, I agree with you there. Living forever would suck.

No. Worship is what you do. It is satisfying to be able to think clearly, but that's not the same thing. It is entirely possible to live your life not worshiping anything.

I understood you to be saying that you don't want to use logic to approach the question of god. Is that not what you were saying?

Ok, but why do you trust the Bible and not the Koran or the Book of Mormon or the Lord of the Rings?

Interesting. Why do you berate god?

The fact that you need forgiveness implies that you are being judged. You shouldn't need forgiveness for thoughts, no matter what they are. Thoughts don't harm anyone.

We like things that exist...

I've been a Christian. Lots of us have. Jesus is really overrated. It's much better, in my opinion, to think for yourself, and live a life without unnecessary guilt. Why pray for forgiveness when you can just realize there's nothing to be forgiven for? If you truly wrong someone, apologize to them. No need to go humble yourself before your imaginary friend.

Honest discussion sometimes means passing judgment on someone else's opinion. Would you rather we not be honest? I honestly don't respect religious belief, just as you honestly don't respect our lack of belief.

I have tried to keep personal attacks out of the equation. (I don't always succeed.) In some cases you have confused our attack on religion as an attack on you, personally.

Here's an excerpt from Sam Harris's Atheist Manifesto. It's about three pages long and I highly recommend you read it:

"Religious faith is a conversation-stopper. Religion is only area of our discourse in which people are systematically protected from the demand to give evidence in defense of their strongly held beliefs. And yet these beliefs often determine what they live for, what they will die for, and--all too often--what they will kill for. This is a problem, because when the stakes are high, human beings have a simple choice between conversation and violence. Only a fundamental willingness to be reasonable--to have our beliefs about the world revised by new evidence and new arguments--can guarantee that we will keep talking to one another. Certainty without evidence is necessarily divisive and dehumanizing. While there is no guarantee that rational people will always agree, the irrational are certain to be divided by their dogmas."

That is why I would urge you to stay and converse, even though you may not always like all that is said. You should not base your decision of "truth" on emotion or gut feelings or how you perceive the people on this forum.

Haven't you realized yet we don't care what a book chock-full-of-bullshit says?

Yes we pretty much can - because after all this time, you haven't shown that there's any truth to these words. 

Ahhh...special pleading once again, just for all time's sake. 

Some palette cleansing to go with that brainwashing.  

There's no such thing as luck, just as there's no such thing as god.  You apparently have a need for both, whereas we have a need for neither.

I'm sure there's 72 bowls of white sugar waiting for you in heaven.  Enjoy. 

The subject of "logic" seems to have become a rather heated one in this thread. I think it bares addressing, and I'll also use it as an entrance to the rest of my thoughts on the original post. I do hope that sugarfree sees fit to read all of my post,. Although it's not a post intended to convince anyone to be an atheist, it is my own feelings on the matter (which, although critical, should not be seen as derogatory).

Logic is not a dogma or crutch, it's not a set of beliefs. It is a finely tuned system of thinking that is in line with nature to the degree that it reliably produces results or plausible results. Something that is logical stands on it's own as something that could possibly be demonstrated to be true without necessitating any of it's constituent components to be speculative. Two plus two equals four is logical because we know for a fact what two is, and you can repeatedly demonstrate that adding two more will equal four. If you were to say that "if we agree that two can sometimes equal three, then two plus two equals five", this would not be logical because we would have to speculate, without evidence, that two could possibly be three, despite the fact that this can never be seen in the real world.

Logic produces reliable results. It's the opposite of belief, as it has to be able to be demonstrated. Over the centuries humans have found principals that must be followed for something to be logical. Such things include falsifiability. If your statement cannot be shown to be false, then it cannot be logical, because there is no test to disprove it, and lack of proof is not proof for something's existence. One of the reasons that we can accept that two plus two equals four is that it leaves you room to try, and thus room for it to be disproved if it's not true.

You hear a lot about logical fallacies because there are a lot of forms of reasoning that are not logical. That is to say that they are not realistic and cannot produce accurate results. Reasoning (which is different from logic) is just the faculty which you use to come to conclusions, it says nothing of the conclusion's plausibility or accuracy. We all have known people that rationalize obviously false beliefs using faulty reason, especially in times of great stress such as a relationship ending or a very close loved one dying. Once the overwhelming emotion subsides, we come to more logical conclusions that give us proper closure, and that brings me to my next point.

There is one historical constant that has marked our progress as a species as we become civilized, and that is that as we grow we shed our illogical precepts and rationalizations and become a more wise, balanced, and civil people. We started out with little understanding of our environment, and as we learned truths we admit our mistakes and correct them. This becomes easier as our basic needs are more easily taken care of.

Here's a few things that we, as a people, once clinged to because it was more comfortable to believe them than not (at the time) because they helped us to attain our short-term goals, and that we have since grown out of and improved ourselves and our lives based on logic:

- Government persecution based on religious preference is bad, secular government is more fair and works better (the founding of the USA, the spread of democracy and freedom of religion).
- Blacks are people too; they should not be enslaved, they are people just like people of every other color, they should be allowed to vote, attend the same schools, share the same water fountains, etc.
- Jews and gays should not be killed by the millions because a dictator doesn't agree with their values, and we should take steps to prevent this from happening by thinking critically about who we allow to power.
- Part and parcel to the last point: absolute power corrupts absolutely.
- People should not be unjustly accused of being witches and burned at the stake. Even if they are witches, they should not be put to death simply because of their beliefs and practices (so long as they don't actually kill anyone).
- People accused of adultery should not be put to death. It's not right, but capital punishment is too harsh.
- People should have a right to a due process.
- The Spanish Inquisition was wrong.
- Hate crimes are wrong.

The list goes on and on. These are all things that were believed by the majority of people until logic prevailed and we admitted our mistakes and moved on. These weren't comforting or convenient truths, they were the cold hard facts. Once we got over the emotional resistance to these things and did the right thing, everyone ultimately benefited and prospered. We didn't need a god to tell us these things, in fact it was often a god that started them. We, as a people, decided collectively what was right and wrong, and even applied this to all the different values in the bible as the religious chose to adhere to some principals and leave others behind, more so as time went on.

It should also be noted that the most heinous and numerous of these crimes against humanity often involved religion. That's not to say that religion is the only factor, but it is the most prevalent. It should be noted that these atrocities are either religious, or due to something else (like national pride). I've seen a few places claim that atheism has caused all sorts of atrocities, which is clearly not true - when was the last time you heard of a dictator commit mass murder for the specific claim that "there is no god, so people must die"? There are plenty that used non-religious excuses, which religion played no direct roll in either way, but there are far more atrocities that were committed in the name of one religion or another, or was due to differences in religious belief. There were some that mixed religion in in one way or another, but the determining factor that I'm speaking of is whether the atrocity would have occurred in the absence of religion - some would have, but many would not.

From what I've seen in history, the more steps a society takes away from religion, the better off everyone has ultimately been. Governments that are both democratic and secular seem to have a tendency to produce less oppression and bloodshed, so long as they stay away from religious issues.

I don't need either logic or religion for my personal fulfillment or happiness. I don't need religion or any book to dictate ethics or morality to know what is right and wrong. I don't need a god to fill in any kind of void, I have no "god/jesus shaped hole in my heart". Ultimately I find religion to raise more questions, and damage the mind and intellect more than anything else.

Science doesn't fill any spiritual void for me, but it does make sense of the world around me and give me a vision and hope for the future. I'm not afraid of the unknown, and have no need to assign mystical precepts to the unknown. The only fear that I have of the future, both my personal future and the future of mankind, is that someone that has religious views that conflict with my own views will take a position of power and affect my how I live my private life. I'm afraid that a religious man will take office that will run the country, not based on universal truths, what's been demonstrated to work, what's proven about the world around us, and what's logical, but rather based on his HOPES that come from his religion. I'm more afraid that a president will take power that decides there is no reason to take responsibility or accountability for our environment or society because god will come back and fix it for us, than I am afraid of what happens when I die. I repeat, I am more afraid of what will be done to this world than what might possibly maybe happen when I die. I recognize that there is no possible way that I can know what will happen when I die, and do not concern myself with it. There have been countless numbers of answers in tons of different books from tons of different people in many different countries in many different times. None of them have any more basis for truth, but they all claim to be the only truth. The one commonality they all have is a near obsessive fear of death, and that is not how I choose to live my life.

Some have said it's a safer bet to believe, but I find two glaring problems with this. The first is that I do not see it as "nothing lost" if I don't believe, as I have seen many de-converted religious people very angry because of the life and opportunity lost and wasted due to the inordinate amount of time spent focusing on fear of things we can't control. You're told you have to feel guilty and bad, and spend your life doing just the right thing in hopes that the all loving god might forgive you. The second is that which one of the innumerable number of answers given, each of which claim a monopoly on truth and warn of grave consequences for not believing, am I supposed to believe? Even if you reduce it to one god, you still have hundreds, if not thousands, of denominations that all tell you that you have to believe it in these very specific ways, and that every other way will result in the aforementioned grave consequences. Which brings me to my next point.

Every theist that brings the subject of god to the table has their own point of view with their own convictions and their own monopoly on the truth. This isn't a truth that can be questioned (at least not freely), demonstrated, proven, or even shown evidence for. On the other hand each and every one of them uses deception, faulty logic, and sometimes outright lies to make their case, although it's not always intentional (in fact I would say that most of the ones that are not clergy in some form don't realize it because it's what their clergy has told them was true). They will say that something has been scientifically proven when it quite clearly has not. They will say that something is absolutely not proven when it quite clearly has. They will say there is no evidence for something when there is a huge pile of it, and vice versa. They will claim to be using clear logic when it doesn't hold up to the slightest hint of it. Different people will present different cases, and each will tell you that the other is "not what we're really like". The extremists will tell you in no uncertain terms that you have to believe something very specifically. You resist this and someone else tells you that they aren't right, that the truth is more moderate. There are then numerous different iterations of that moderation, each with different interpretations of the truth, but all claiming the sole truth. God seems to be a custard that can't be nailed to the wall. They all use the same bad logic, each claiming that it will hold up to scrutiny, but each refuses the other and will insist that you don't know what you're talking about if you don't agree with the premise. When it comes down to it, they will usually find ways of shutting the conversation down completely. They'll enter the conversation claiming that they're looking for truth, but when logic, or even reason, starts to lead away from their comfort zone they will resort to shutting down and attacking the other person. Heck, I've even seen these conversations end with "You can tell he's a satanist because he's intelligent. Logic is the tool of the devil".

And this is how we're supposed to search for the truth?

I'm sorry, but I don't see it. The brightest of minds that this world has ever produced, from all different points of view, have formulated ways of thinking about our existence that have shown results and make sense of other things. These methods reliably reveal what makes this universe work in ways that can be clearly seen by everyone everywhere, in no uncertain terms, anytime, reliably.

No, I don't have the answers to every question. I will always have existential questions that science won't be able to answer, at least in my lifetime. The big "BUT" here is that I'm not afraid of that. That actually fills me with wonder and awe for our existence. It may confound the theist to know that I actually find comfort in it. I can review and revise my beliefs as needed, and grow as a person. I actually enjoy finding a truth, even when it destroys a prior personal belief. The fact that there is not one single entity that answers every question of the unknown makes life that much more interesting to me. I don't need to be made to feel special by some divine right. I am well aware of how small and insignificant I am in this universe - that makes me feel lucky as hell to be here, and makes me reach for ever greater goals. I'm free to think about the most mysterious of sciences, like quantum theory, string theory, complexity theory, chaos theory, and on and on, and not think about how it might apply to any kind of personal convictions.

There is only one thing that I hold as an absolute conviction, and that is that if there did turn out to be a creator, science would never disprove any word it really sent down. If a god was responsible for all that we see and know, then probing and analyzing it, learning to think congruently with the ways that the universe can be shown to operate, would never run contrary to this creator; it would, in fact, reveal it more and more, without needing any kind of holy book, special interpretation, or speculative premise. This creator would be seen simply by looking, and without having to think "Did a god do this?" Just like a clock in a field that is clearly artificial in contrast to nature and bares the individual artistry of a clearly organic mind influenced by the aesthetic standards of his century. This creator would also surely never want to prohibit us from observing or thinking about any part of his creation, and would want us to learn and grow in any and every way possible. Ultimately, other explanations of our universe and existence would simply not work, but the simple fact is that they do.

Perhaps some day we, as a people, will come to understand that there is some kind of higher intelligence and come to understand how it works and exists. Perhaps we will come to see other universes and be able to contrast them with our own. Perhaps a higher intelligence will even be found in this other universe that we can explore and communicate with in some fashion. Perhaps it will even have something to say about the creative forces of this universe. At such a time many (but not anywhere near all) questions would be answered, and be apparent to all. At such a time I will enthusiastically and whole-heartedly explore the subject and learn how it enhances our knowledge and brings it to new heights, for it will certainly bring forth the most exciting kind of technology to truly accelerate our advancement and improve our lives! Until such a time, I find no lack of fulfillment, wonder, inspiration, and comfort in what we have now, and if there is one truth that I hold to be absolute, it is that truth about nature is always more subtle and yet beautiful than we ever expect. And that *is* something that can be seen throughout all of human endeavors, from art, to science, to philosophy, to economics, and on and on.

Sugarfree, you have talked about how you have become a better person because of Christianity. I must ask you to consider that it is not Christianity (or Christ) that is making you a better person but yourself.

Thinking philosophically, whether inspired from the Bible or any other source, will tend to make people re-consider many factors of their life. Any introspection will tend to improve a person. That's why the oracle at Delphi said "Know Thyself" (it actually said it in Greek, something like gnothe seauton), because seeking self-knowledge, introspection, and search for wisdom will find these things.

What you have done, sugarfree, is undertaken a personal journey of self-discovery and wisdom. You have found it amoung others who are on the same search within a Christian community. What you should consider is that this journey is possible in any religion or lack-thereof.

The wisdom and other valuable ideas in the Bible (whether we agree they are valuable or not) are not valuable because the Bible says them. rather, they are valuable because they make sense to us and we make them valuable. Thus, what is really the cause of your improvement is your ability to distinguish between wisdom and non-wisdom. You may say that this is because you are indwelled with the Holy Spirit or taht because God gave you this power, but that would be begging the question.

Begging the question means, simply, that you assume what you conclude. If the question is what the source of wisdom, truth, etc is, then to conclude that when we find it it is due to God's gift of the ability to tell the difference, you have simply asnwered the question by assuming the answer you wanted. If, in pursuing truth, self-improvement, and wisdom you find it while reading the Bible, you cannot say that it was God's truth. You can say that you learned it from the Bible, but to assume that the Bible is God's word is circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning, in this case, is the following (or something like it); a) The Bible is true because the Bible is God's word. The Bible is God's word because the Bible says that it is the word of God.

What if I said; b) The Quran is true because it is God's truth. The Quran is God's truth because the Quran says that it is God's truth.

What's the difference between a) and b)? Unless you can rationally justify why a) is true and that b) is false, you are committing the special pleading fallacy, already explained.

And if you don't have reasons for your belief, then you cannot be surprised when others don't believe you.

I, personally, believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't care what reasoning anyone has, what evidence there is, or what you believe, because the FSM has helped me improve as a person and I feel his noodly appendage on me frequently. Nothing can budge my faith in the FSM.  The FSM is real and Ican't believe that you would deny it!

Shaun

Shaun--

How being a Christian has made me better is that I used to have to pick everything apart, reason everything to death, because ulimately I was seeking to control that which I could not control.  I thought, if I figured it out, I could control it.  This very much let to serotonin burnout, i.e. depression.  When I became a Christian, I realized I don't have to figure everything out.  That I can just let some things "be".  In other words, I began systematically letting go of those things I was trying to control.

Also before Christianity, I did not really know how to connect with people.  I knew I wanted to connect, and that I needed it for my well-being...but I didn't understand WHY I needed it, or how to go about doing it.  Since becoming a Christian, I am slowly learning to accept the fact that, yes, I need people, I will always need people, I cannot be an island unto myself.  And I am also learning how to reach out and ask for help when I need it, rather than retreating back into my shell and trying to figure out how to solve thing my own way.

Another thing is, I started opening myself up to possibility.  To the fact that, maybe there is a God that wants to speak to ME.  It seemed impossible, unthinkable, but I decided to open myself up to the possibility and see where it led me.  I had questions about the Bible, I knew there were plenty things about it that I did not like, or understand, but I decided, I was going to read the Bible...and I prayed to Jesus to reveal it's truth to me.

 Just last night I was reading where Jesus said he did not come to bring peace, but to divide.  I thought about this site, about the profound disagreements we have been having here...the fact that we truly cannot see each other's point of view, and I realized, yes, Jesus has divided us.  He had to come, to divide us, to force us to choose God, or to not choose God.  God is testing us.

  The other thing, when I come to a part in the Bible I don't get, or wonder about, I just read it and say "God I really don't get that", and I move on.  I don't think its a big deal to God, or to my Christian walk, that I don't get it right now.  Maybe I will get it in the future...  Truth is...it's no big deal right now.

Before I considered becoming a Christian, I never prayed.  Quite frankly, I never even considered it.  But my Christian college roommate prayed all the time.  The other thing I noticed about my college roommate was...she was calm.  There was a peace about her.  She wasn't the most attractive girl, but that didn't seem to matter to her.  She didn't berate herself about it, she didn't fret, or worry (like I was CONSTANTLY doing).  So, I decided to give it a try...let me pray to this God...and, my prayer was answered...and I was shocked by that.

Now that I have been a Christian for about a decade, I am beginning to understand the path God has had me on.  I'm looking back and seeing that events in my life, which I did not understand, are paying off in big way in my future.  Because...in the early days of my career, I was given opportunities that I didn't want, and not given opportunities that I wanted...but now...I see why He wanted me in this particular job, or at that particular location...  It is fun to look back and see what happens when I earnestly seek God's will for my life.  The pieces of my life...my experiences, are fitting together, building upon themselves...and that is quite satisfying.