God lying about hell?

Larty
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God lying about hell?

Back in this thread: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/sapient/atheist_vs_theist/12044

wavefreak posted this:

wavefreak wrote:


One of my favorite "thought experiments" for Christians is this:

You die and appear at the gates of heaven. Jesus appears before you, pulls you aside and says quietly, "We made an error in our calculations and there's only

room for one more in heaven. See that man over there - he is a good man, but he didn't live a life of dedicated sevice as you did. The only way he can get

into heaven is if you give up your spot. Of course that means you will spend eternity in hell. The choice is yours. What will you have me do?"

Another good one is "Would you serve god if you found out that satan wins?"

Later Adam TM replied to the second one of these thought-experiments:

AdamTM wrote:

I would always follow satan, no matter who wins, here are some examples why:

Hell is the opposite of heaven, and as mentioned in another post on this forum, you dont have free will in heaven. Meaning, in hell you have free will.

Satan is the oposite of god. Therefore he doesnt care about you, hence he leaves you the fuck alone.

I think hell is atheist heaven, free thinking, warm, the tree of knowledge, great atheist minds to discuss matters with and all that outside the reach of

some shizzo god that wants to control everything.

Someones punishment is another persons reward Smiling

Also given the fact that everyone that goes to hell is EVIL, hell is a paradise for evil ppl.

The problem with this is just that the bible tells us that hell is an eternal damnnation, full of pain and suffering. So Adam TM's idea of hell can't be correct.

But then an interesting thought crossed my mind. What if the bible was lying about hell? Satan opposes God, so God and Satan are having a constant competition for human souls. What if hell isn't as bad as it says on the bible, but that's just God's propaganda to have as many people join him? God simply faked information about hell in the bible, and hell isn't as bad as most people think it is. It may actually be a pretty good place, and the only thing that keeps most people from joining Satan is the lies of God. This would prove both that God is not perfect, but that the bible may have more faked information. It makes some interesting Theological problems.

Discuss. But don't take it seriously. This is meant to be hypothetical pondering.

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


Tarpan
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I am actually working on a

I am actually working on a small essay on this exact topic.

I don't see the motivation that Satan would have in torturing people.  If he did, he would be doing god's will, but he has proven that he opposes god.  I don't see a logical reason why he would spend thousands of years torturing people just because that's what god wants to be done with his cast offs.


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Tarpan wrote: I don't see

Tarpan wrote:

I don't see the motivation that Satan would have in torturing people. If he did, he would be doing god's will, but he has proven that he opposes god. I don't see a logical reason why he would spend thousands of years torturing people just because that's what god wants to be done with his cast offs.

I was taught (not that I believe it, but...) that it wasn't that Satan was torturing people as much as they were going to have to keep him company in the uncomfortable, unpleasant, and pretty hot environment God sent Satan to. 


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So he's powerful enough to

So he's powerful enough to manipulate minds, history, and convince the majority of the world to not believe in whatever the '1 true god' is. 

Yet we're just going to go hang out with him? He's gotta have some powers to make his life not all torture for himself if he's got the time to corrupt the world nad everything in it.

Is Satan ominpresent as well?

Or maybe just mostlypresent since he's not in heaven but everywhere else? 


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Satan gets a bad rap.  Much

Satan gets a bad rap.  Much better music is made in his name.


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Larty wrote: The problem

Larty wrote:

The problem with this is just that the bible tells us that hell is an eternal damnnation, full of pain and suffering. So Adam TM's idea of h

 

It's a matter of perspective.  If you agree with most christians that it's noble to be a "slave to god", then chances are their idea of heaven is your idea of hell, and vice-versa.

If being separated for eternity from an omnipotent diety who is sadistic, cruel and vain, is your idea of "damnation", sign me up for damnation.

 


Eloise
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Tarpan wrote:   Is Satan

Tarpan wrote:

 

Is Satan ominpresent as well?

If God is omnipresent then he's in hell too. 

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Eloise wrote: Tarpan

Eloise wrote:
Tarpan wrote:

 

Is Satan ominpresent as well?

If God is omnipresent then he's in hell too. 

It's a good point...

Do you think he suffers in hell?

Do tempatures really matter if you don't have a physical form?


Eloise
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Tarpan wrote:

Tarpan wrote:
Eloise wrote:
Tarpan wrote:

 

Is Satan ominpresent as well?

If God is omnipresent then he's in hell too.

It's a good point... Do you think he suffers in hell?

Yes I think so, being omnipotent he made a rock so heavy that h couldnt lift it, but he's been trying ever since (someone always want's proof that he actually did it.. Satan asks about four times a day), it's utter torture I suspect.

Quote:

Do tempatures really matter if you don't have a physical form?

We may be able to interpret this metaphorically as the heat which is on him now to come up with a clever final solution that doesn't violate his omnipotence. If he lifts the rock he's failed to create one heavy enough, if he doesn't lift it then so much for all-powerful huh? Eye-wink

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Tarpan
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Eloise wrote: Tarpan

Eloise wrote:
Tarpan wrote:
Eloise wrote:
Tarpan wrote:

 

Is Satan ominpresent as well?

If God is omnipresent then he's in hell too.

It's a good point... Do you think he suffers in hell?

Yes I think so, being omnipotent he made a rock so heavy that h couldnt lift it, but he's been trying ever since (someone always want's proof that he actually did it.. Satan asks about four times a day), it's utter torture I suspect.

Quote:

Do tempatures really matter if you don't have a physical form?

We may be able to interpret this metaphorically as the heat which is on him now to come up with a clever final solution that doesn't violate his omnipotence. If he lifts the rock he's failed to create one heavy enough, if he doesn't lift it then so much for all-powerful huh? Eye-wink

That's the nice part about being imaginary though, you can just keep redefining him until you find a theoretical solution that works. Eye-wink


Eloise
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Tarpan wrote: Eloise

Tarpan wrote:
Eloise wrote:
Tarpan wrote:
Eloise wrote:
Tarpan wrote:

 

Is Satan ominpresent as well?

If God is omnipresent then he's in hell too.

It's a good point... Do you think he suffers in hell?

Yes I think so, being omnipotent he made a rock so heavy that h couldnt lift it, but he's been trying ever since (someone always want's proof that he actually did it.. Satan asks about four times a day), it's utter torture I suspect.

Quote:

Do tempatures really matter if you don't have a physical form?

We may be able to interpret this metaphorically as the heat which is on him now to come up with a clever final solution that doesn't violate his omnipotence. If he lifts the rock he's failed to create one heavy enough, if he doesn't lift it then so much for all-powerful huh? Eye-wink

That's the nice part about being imaginary though, you can just keep redefining him until you find a theoretical solution that works. Eye-wink

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic.. LOL.

Oh well, in any case I am kind of serious about the original point, it's not something that the average theist notices but God is in hell:

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

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Sarcastic, not really Well

Sarcastic, not really Eye-wink

Well naturally he'd be in hell of he's omnipresent, I just hadn't really considered much about what his presence there implies.

Based on Satan's description I have to wonder if his description is also omnipresent which also has interesting twists on it.

If two things are omnipresent, are they not the same thing? Are god and satan one and the same?


wavefreak
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I'm a little curious why

I'm a little curious why atheists are speculating about properties of heaven and hell.


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wavefreak wrote: I'm a

wavefreak wrote:
I'm a little curious why atheists are speculating about properties of heaven and hell.

For the same reason I discuss who would win in a fight between Robots and Werewolves.


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Tarpan wrote: wavefreak

Tarpan wrote:
wavefreak wrote:
I'm a little curious why atheists are speculating about properties of heaven and hell.
For the same reason I discuss who would win in a fight between Robots and Werewolves.

Robots have the advantage of technology. Werewolves are filthy creatures. 


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Milkshake89 wrote: Tarpan

Milkshake89 wrote:

Tarpan wrote:
wavefreak wrote:
I'm a little curious why atheists are speculating about properties of heaven and hell.
For the same reason I discuss who would win in a fight between Robots and Werewolves.

Robots have the advantage of technology. Werewolves are filthy creatures. 

I tend to side with the robots because of the laser canon's (all robots have laser canon's right?) but I know a couple people who feel the werewolves would do well as long as the robots don't have silver bullets or natural werewolf deterrants.


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Robots actually exist

Robots actually exist though.


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You can't prove werewolves

You can't prove werewolves don't! Only that they haven't been proven to exist yet!

 Wait... does that mean werewolves... are GOD? Shit, I think that might give them an edge over the robots then.

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Pile wrote: Larty

Pile wrote:
Larty wrote:

The problem with this is just that the bible tells us that hell is an eternal damnnation, full of pain and suffering. So Adam TM's idea of h

It's a matter of perspective. If you agree with most christians that it's noble to be a "slave to god", then chances are their idea of heaven is your idea of hell, and vice-versa.

If being separated for eternity from an omnipotent diety who is sadistic, cruel and vain, is your idea of "damnation", sign me up for damnation.

I don't quite agree with this reasoning. When comparing heaven or hell in which one is better, you have to look at what you gain. In heaven, you would propably have to be a slave to God, in hell you wouldn't have to. But if the part in the bible about suffering, fire and brimstone properties of hell are correct, heaven would be much better.

Trust and believe in no god, but trust and believe in yourself.


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I was just thinking the

I was just thinking the exact same thing. If "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a true statement, the God would be Satan's enemy so anybody who sins or denies the "holy spirit" is the Satan's friend. Why would he want to torture a friend. That's would be like Hillary Clinton bitch slappin' everyone who votes for her. Since God doesn't mess with free will, Satan can be as nice to people as he wants, he just doesn't like God.

"If something bad happened to you today, don't blame the devil, God is just taking a weed break, he'll fix it later."
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wavefreak
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Maybe satan torments people

Maybe satan torments people just for the fun of it. That's what makes him evil.


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ZaKEEuS wrote: That's would

ZaKEEuS wrote:
That's would be like Hillary Clinton bitch slappin' everyone who votes for her. 

Why not? Bush did. 


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ZaKEEuS wrote: I was just

ZaKEEuS wrote:
I was just thinking the exact same thing. If "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a true statement, the God would be Satan's enemy so anybody who sins or denies the "holy spirit" is the Satan's friend.

and

wavefreak wrote:
Maybe satan torments people just for the fun of it. That's what makes him evil.

No no no, you've got it all wrong. Look, what everyone keeps missing is that the whole 'Satan is evil' meme is just a big crock of shit cooked up by the church, who needed a 'bad guy' to blame shit on. Check out the Book of Job. Satan goes and gets permission from God to fuck w/Job. We never see Satan defy God, anywhere. The worst thing he does is pop up in front of a hungry Christ and go 'Mmmmm, POP TARTS... You know you want some..."

Don't you get it? Don't you see? Satan's not God's enemy... he's God's narc. God's the one who's evil, man, Satan's just a guy, like you or me, except he works directly for The Man, and worse, as an angel, he doesn't have free will. So when God says 'Satan, my little bitch, go out there and fuck with people in My name, and take all the blame, and by the way, at the end of time? I'm gonna fucking ROAST your ass. HAH!', he doesn't have a choice.

Dude is the ultimate fall guy, and God's pullin' his strings, laughing all the way like the sadistic fucking puppetmaster he is. He's not evil. He's not tormenting people. He's an honest, hardworking Joe who's got the shit luck to have the Divine Glock pressed up against his temple.

We oughta feel sorry for the brother. We oughta lobby the Church to ask God to let Satan off. Angels don't get Free Will, right? All things are possible with God, right? So what the hell, can't God cut his hatchetman some slack?

Solidarity! Lemme hear you say it: We forgive Satan, and God should, too! 

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wavefreak
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BMcD wrote: No no no,

BMcD wrote:

No no no, you've got it all wrong. Look, what everyone keeps missing is that the whole 'Satan is evil' meme is just a big crock of shit cooked up by the church, who needed a 'bad guy' to blame shit on. Check out the Book of Job. Satan goes and gets permission from God to fuck w/Job. We never see Satan defy God, anywhere. The worst thing he does is pop up in front of a hungry Christ and go 'Mmmmm, POP TARTS... You know you want some..."

No, dude. That's not how it's going down. See, Satan, after doing all God's dirty work and getting nothing for it finally got pissed off. So he started causing shit just to freak out the big daddy. After awhile, causing shit felt good. So he started causing major shit. By the time the church started livin' large, satan was a full blown bas ass and he needed to be taken down.

Yeah. That's it. 


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all I gotta say is I think

all I gotta say is I think hell would be a nice place to get a tan. but oh wait I dont have the physical body to tan, so I guess that wont help much. but according to the bible I am supposed to fear satan but why do I fear him? how many people has he killed... like one,right.

as oppose to a big invisible jerk in the sky which by the way loves gay people, because he would have to genetically create the issue right? plus it eliminates the debate of abortion there fore less premature death. or is god such n asshole that he prefers the death...according to the Bible he prefers the death. 

 I agree Satan must love us Atheists because we keep him company and talk about things that matter like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop without biting.

can you imagine all the wild sexparties and orgies there would be. but lets say it were just burning in flames for eternity...it would have no effect on me if I have no physical body.

So I choose send me to hell. 

If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..


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BMcD wrote: Don't you get

BMcD wrote:

Don't you get it? Don't you see? Satan's not God's enemy... he's God's narc. God's the one who's evil, man, Satan's just a guy, like you or me, except he works directly for The Man, and worse, as an angel, he doesn't have free will. So when God says 'Satan, my little bitch, go out there and fuck with people in My name, and take all the blame, and by the way, at the end of time? I'm gonna fucking ROAST your ass. HAH!', he doesn't have a choice.

Damn, that's true!!! The poor guy never had a chance. And yet, there's more to it. God didn't send Jesus' bro to hell just because he opposed Him, but because he was JEALOUS of Satan!! Satan invented cannons and gunpowder and all kind of warfare whatnots while He was stuck with pre-stone age freakshow chariots with eyes on the weels (I take Milton's version over the bible any day).

And besides, I wouldn't want to go to heaven simply because, well, it's hotter than hell!!!: http://nowscape.com/mormon/mo-temp.htm 

Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.


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Satan was the jealous

Satan was the jealous one.  

As a result of his pride, Satan was cast out of heaven (Isa. 14:12; Luke 10:18

He wanted to be higher than the creator and got his butt kicked out of heaven for it.

And we have no evidence whatsoever that the soul perishes with the body---------Mahatma Gandhi


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For whatever reason the

For whatever reason the other link wouldn't work for me.

So, here it is again

http://nowscape.com/mormon/mo-temp.htm

Too bad stupidity isn't poisonous.


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I posted this blog entry a

I posted this blog entry a couple days ago...raises some of the questions here and some others...just general confusion about hell.

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/lucifer_satan_the_devil