Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Jimenezj
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Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?


Jimenezj
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It matches Exodus 1:11 which records that the store cities of Ramesses were built by Israelites.

The Papyrus confirms the jews were in Egypt and built the city of Ramesses as stated by the bible.

Can you prove otherwise?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:you said:

Jimenezj wrote:
you said: it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area Jews in Egypt: Leiden Papyrus 348, a decree by an official of Ramesses II concerning construction work at his new capital, Pi-Ramesses, declares: “Distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the Apiru who transport stones to the great pylon of Ramesses.”

Opinions and conjection abound for the Apiru in this Papyrus. Most consider it to be the Hyskos. Many also claim the Apiru were robber bandits of Asiatic descent.

Are you saying the Hebrews were robber bandits?

You say they were Jews - Again, the word Jews was coined in the Persian period from Yehud, in the 6th century and thereafter.

The myth of the Exodus is likely to have originated about then as folklore and legend from stories of the Hyskos misunderstood by the ignorant.

The word Jews is inappropriate.

Show the Apiru were Hebrews not the Hyskos or other Asiatics that are desciibed as Apiru and robbers.

Don't give opinions, yours or others present validation.

 

 

 

 

 

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Jimenezj wrote:It matches

Jimenezj wrote:
It matches Exodus 1:11 which records that the store cities of Ramesses were built by Israelites. The Papyrus confirms the jews were in Egypt and built the city of Ramesses as stated by the bible. Can you prove otherwise?

yes I can, you have a one statement that they were building one building, they were not slaves (at least not that you can prove, yet) and they were not in the size stated in the bible, or the mass exodus that is claimed in the OT/bible, as such no you have not even come close to meeting the requirements for evidence. As for the papyrus, is it leiden papyrus I 348?

[edit]

Just for your knowledge, egyptians, refer to Habiru or apiru to many people, depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru/apiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc. The jews at Beth She'an would actually fall under this term, they used this term to describe them, being that Migrant Laborers is an option, could it be that the Apiru described in the Leiden are migrant laborous and not slaves? Could you tell me the difference? Chances are no you cannot not, as such, you still have a major gap to fill, from 1.4 million jews in egypt being kept as slaves and then a mass exodus of slaves that is not documented in any way or form be it egyptian documents or archaeological evidence. Apiru is a wide term word, Asiatic Semites would not be used by egyptians, which is why that part of C.L. Fisher quote, is not found outside of christian/jewish (far far far more christian that jewish) websites and not in actual academic sites.


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Jimenezj wrote:It matches

Jimenezj wrote:
It matches Exodus

~ rip ~

Can you prove otherwise?

There are many problems you side step or ignore.

World population in 1200 BCE - 100 million - http://www.worldhistorysite.com/population.html in Africa 11 million in Egypt 5 million

Exodus claim - 600,000 men - add one woman each and only 1 child. = close to 2 million

According to the story tale in Exodus the male children were killed so only female children would be left. If not, add 600,000 more children making the Hebrews half the population of Egypt in 1200 BCE.

Otherwise, they are 40% of the population.

Egypt at the time had a standing army of about 20,000.

They had no machine guns so how did they control a population almost equal to them?

Did every Egyptian carry a sword or did each Egyptian have a Hebrew in chains they dragged about?

Going further - archealogy does not support a population of 2 million in Palestine especially in the area of Judah Israel.

On the Apiru - They are variously described as bandiits, robbers or just the Asiatics from outside of Egypt from Asia

See - http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=1051

See this for many sources - http://www.bu.edu/anep/LB.html

 

 

____________________________________________________________
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"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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It matches Exodus 1:11 which records that the store cities of Ramesses were built by Israelites. The Papyrus confirms the jews were in Egypt and built the city of Ramesses as stated by the bible. Can you prove otherwise?

you yourself said that the Apiru were the jews, and now you are changing your story. Are you not sure of what you saying?

you said that egypt used contracted workers and not slaves. Can you prove this?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Are you saying the Hebrews were robber bandits?

yes, they robbed egypt of its gold.


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Are you saying the Hebrews were robber bandits?

yes, they robbed egypt of its gold.


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Jimenezj wrote:It matches

Jimenezj wrote:
It matches Exodus 1:11 which records that the store cities of Ramesses were built by Israelites. The Papyrus confirms the jews were in Egypt and built the city of Ramesses as stated by the bible. Can you prove otherwise? you yourself said that the Apiru were the jews, and now you are changing your story. Are you not sure of what you saying? you said that egypt used contracted workers and not slaves. Can you prove this?

No it makes reference to one small part, which in that papyrus does not make reference to slaves, which the only reference is Apiru can be taken in many many forms, one is slave, the other is migrant labor, it entirely misses the other part, that there were slaves, that there was a mass exodus of almost 1.4 million jews, the whole plague, the death of the first born, etc, etc, etc.


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Jimenezj wrote:Are you

Jimenezj wrote:
Are you saying the Hebrews were robber bandits? yes, they robbed egypt of its gold.

If you buy that, I know of a great land deal in Florida, yes its's swampland, but you can drain it and make millions.

Or from my signature:

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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you said that egypt used contracted workers and not slaves. Can you prove this?


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Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Egyptian Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" left Egypt for Jerusalem.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:you said that

Jimenezj wrote:
you said that egypt used contracted workers and not slaves. Can you prove this?

Yes there is more than enough archaeological evidence that paid skilled laborers where used and not slaves, first is the finds of workers cemetery in the 1990's which showed them buried with items for the afterlife, something slaves did not get. The workers village which also had doctors camp, bakers and cooks, all showed free men and not slaves living there, as well inscriptions on various stones on many pyramids of the various teams or gangs working together, such inscriptions found like the boat gang, the craftsman gang, the enduring gang etc, etc.Which also shows team proud of their work and not slave workers. As well scholars now believe that workers where motivated to work at the pyramids with promise of being buried near the pharaoh as per the workers cemetery, which those buried there being identified as pyramid builders.

There is no evidence that slaves where used there, at least not that many slaves as per the requirement to build the pyramids (there may have been slaves being used as personal servants for architects, etc), which is believed to be in groups of 7000 to 10,000 at a time (and then a secondary laborers which could be as high as 20,000 additional workforce). To control that many slaves would require a few 1000 soldiers, which there is no evidence of that at the pyramids. Seasonal workers such as farmers and artisans where used and paid, as well as permanent workers which evidence has been found at various pyramids.


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Jimenezj wrote:Josephus

Jimenezj wrote:
Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Egyptian Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" left Egypt for Jerusalem.

you may want to read up on that claim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Hyksos#Manetho_and_Josephus


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Now you have a dating problem

Jimenezj wrote:
Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Egyptian Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" left Egypt for Jerusalem.

 

The time period of the Hyskos and the time period for Rameses II are seperated by hundreds of years.

Then of course there is the problem the Hyskos actually ruled Lower Egypt. If the Hyskos are the Hebrews they enslaved themselves which is not what the story tales indicate.

They left alright, driven out by Pharaoh Ahmose circa 1550-1525 BCE. Whereas Rameses II reigned in circa 1279 -1213 BCE.

 

 

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Please specifically quote the expedition's report or BAR report to support your claim of contracted workers vs slaves to build the city of Ramses.

Wickipidia is not a legitimate Archeological Support link to the Hyksos.
Also state your claim regarding the Hyksos vs Josephus claim.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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If you want to see

some floks in a desert go to Google maps  - enter Black Rock City, NV. I came across this when looking for prospecting areas along I-80. I was going from one mountain range to the other across this area and saw a strange dark object. I zoomed down and ---what da??? Use the google guy to see pics of what going on there. Amazing.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Jimenezj wrote:Please

Jimenezj wrote:
Please specifically quote the expedition's report or BAR report to support your claim of contracted workers vs slaves to build the city of Ramses. Wickipidia is not a legitimate Archeological Support link to the Hyksos. Also state your claim regarding the Hyksos vs Josephus claim.

No wikipedia also has references which you can look up and find out, dig deeper.

http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf%20library/hawass_fs_stadelmann.pdf for the workers village amongst other finds, Z. Hawass, "The Workmen's Community at Giza: Manfred, ed. Hause und Palat im Alten Agypten/House and Palace in Ancient Egypt. Osterreichische Alcademie der Gesamtakademic. Band XIV (Vienna: Verlag der Osterreichische Alcademie der Wissenschafter, 1996), pp. 53-67.

Z. Hawass, "Tombs of the Pyramid Builder" in Archaeology,, Jan. Feb. (1997), pp. 39- 43; idem, "A Group of Unique Statues Discovered at Giza. I. Statues of the Overseer of the Pyramid Builders", pp. 91-95. II. "An Unfinished Reserve Head and a Statuette of an Overseer:, pp. 97-101. In Kunst des Alten Reiches, Symposium in Deutschen Archaologischen Institute Kairoam 29-30. October 1991, SDAIK 28 (Mainz and Rhein: 1995) 25 R. Stadelmann, "La ville de Pyramide a L'Ancien Empire". Rdt 33 (1981), p. 77; & Winters argument against this theory, E. Winter, "Zur Deutung der Sonnenheiligtumer der E. Dynastie", WZKM 54 (1957), pp. 222-233.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0805_020805_giza.html

http://archive.archaeology.org/online/reviews/engineering/index.html

http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html

I mean we can go on and on with this part, there is more evidence for workers being free men than you have that they were slaves. I am still waiting for your evidence of 1.4 million jews wandering the desert, that they were slaves in egypt, of the plague in egypt and the deaths of the first borns in egypt.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34794254/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/egypt-discovers-workers-tombs-near-pyramids/#.UQreq2eynKc


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if there was an exodus with 480,000 Semitic Hyksos from Egypt to Jerusalem, then why cant there be one with the Hebrews and Moses ?

Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" left Egypt for Jerusalem.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:if there was

Jimenezj wrote:
if there was an exodus with 480,000 Semitic Hyksos from Egypt to Jerusalem, then why cant there be one with the Hebrews and Moses ? Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" left Egypt for Jerusalem.

Because Josephus doesn't identify it, he repeats someone else story and makes the claim it is the jews, yet however the problem lies is that the Hyksos are not slaves. The are viewed as invaders either from the north or from the east, plus they have their own rulers, which does not make them slaves. Again the problem is they were pushed out of egypt they did not leave on their own will. So please it is not that hard, evidence that 1.4 million jews or at least give me 1 million jews were slaves in egypt, wandered the desert for 40 years (a 11 day trip that takes them 40 years) plague that takes over egypt and the death of the first borns in egypt.

http://www.arce.org/events/chapter/2012/03/u513/ANNUAL-KORSYN-LECTURE-New-Evidence-for-the-Hyksos-Ruler-Khayan-at-Tell-Edfu

http://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/hyksos.html

http://historymatters.appstate.edu/sites/historymatters.appstate.edu/files/egyptchariots_000.pdf

http://www.academia.edu/1493891/Can_Scarabs_Argue_for_the_Origin_of_the_Hyksos

these show they where not slaves, that Hyksos most likely came from Levant area, which is modern day Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Palestine, Southern turkey and israel, yet they do not have a monotheistic belief system, the archaeology does not show that, what it does show then is the jews took this story and made it part of the OT if anything, but they were not slaves and it was not a mass exodus as per the bible.


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If it is possible for half a million Hyksos to éxodos egypt , then its possible
For 1 million Hebrews to do the same. Slaves Or not.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:If it is

Jimenezj wrote:
If it is possible for half a million Hyksos to éxodos egypt , then its possible For 1 million Hebrews to do the same. Slaves Or not.

ummm no, see here is the issue, the Hyksos left evidence, your 1 million jews did not. I can't believe you don't see the problem here. There is evidence of the He is yksos in Egypt, there is archaeological evidence of where they went. There is none for the exodus claimed in the Torach/OT

 


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you yourself said that the Apiru were the jews, and we both know that the Apiru built Ramses. Are you saying that you were
wrong? What else are you wrong about? You never came out with Archaeological evidence of contracted workers in Ramses. Your other evidence was not for the city of Ramses.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:you yourself

Jimenezj wrote:
you yourself said that the Apiru were the jews, and we both know that the Apiru built Ramses. Are you saying that you were wrong? What else are you wrong about? You never came out with Archaeological evidence of contracted workers in Ramses. Your other evidence was not for the city of Ramses.

No I said the jews were referred to as Apiru in egyptian documents not asiatic semitic. However I also said egyptians used Apiru to describe various people, from nomads, semi nomads, slaves, and migrant workers, as well as rebels, outlaws, bowmen, mercenaries, etc, etc. We know they used Apiru to describe jews due to a battle near Mount Yarmuta, which is 6 miles from beth she'an, and not necessarily jews, more like pre jews. However you still have another major issue now, how is Apiru used there, as migrant labors, as slaves? As semi nomads? as Canaanites? as another tribe? As what? you are making a huge jump without any actual evidence for your statement. We can say that there were soldiers and Apiru, who the apiru were is another topic altogether, it has been shown before that the jews stole many stories from surrounding tribes and nations. So again, we have to have evidence to back up the claims, so far no evidence has actually been presented. As it stands right now we have no evidence of 1 million jews wandering the desert, that 1 million jews where slaves in egypt, that 1 million left egypt, no documents no nothing. The Hyksos who were invaders and rulers of egypt we have evidence, they were not slaves at all. The exodus was not an exodus as they left voluntarily, more like they were chased out. No plague evidence no evidence of first borns killed, no evidence that the exodus actually happened as described, and many scholars don't believe it happened at all, because it doesn't match any evidence at all.

[edit]

I have also presented evidence that egypt was not built by slaves but by skilled workmen, which is why the whole jewish slaves building egypt temples, pyramids, store houses etc, etc doesn't fly at all.


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So far we have :
The Apiru/Jews as builders Of Ramses
The Hyksos and their exodus .

3Rd

Manetho reports that Egyptian priest named Osarseph took the name "Moses" and led a rebellion of 80,000 people against Egypt . Later the rebellion merged with the Semitic  Hyksos .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:So far we

Jimenezj wrote:
So far we have : The Apiru/Jews as builders Of Ramses The Hyksos and their exodus . 3Rd Manetho reports that Egyptian priest named Osarseph took the name "Moses" and led a rebellion of 80,000 people against Egypt . Later the rebellion merged with the Semitic  Hyksos .

Ok again, Apiru used in the document does not specifically mean jews, first and foremost, builders in egypt we have more than enough proof were paid skilled labor not slaves (which you ignore this fact) The Hyksos were not jews nor were they slaves, they were Rulers of Egypt which part of it makes them slaves is beyond me since the history shows that the Hyksos ruled northern parts of egypt and eventually are driven out by southern egypt. No slaves here again.

As for the Osarseph, that is all second hand account, which contradicts the story of the bible, since "moses" never lead an army of lepers against the Pharaoh and drove the Pharaoh out, which again 80,000 is not 600,000 men (not including women and children, or unfit men unable to fight) as per the bible. The story that Josephus give about Osarseph is disputed very much by Egyptologist. Since we do not have any documents from Manetho regarding this part, plus we know Josephus was not exactly correct about the Hyksos. As none of Manetho documents never mention jews it is hard to believe that Josephus is 100 percent accurate as we already know that he was quite willing to add parts to the story that were not there.


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If you add 80,000 with the Hyksos half million , you get pretty close
To the biblical account. You have to remember that the Jews end up in Egypt because of a drought in Canaan. They go to Egypt in small numbers and leave with a large group. Could this large group be a mixed of Hyksos? History points to a yes. Who else would the Jews mix with other then the Egyptians? The Semite Hyksos. Who else would appoint
Joseph , Semite Jew to the 2nd highest position in Egypt? A Semite Hyksos Pharaoh.

Josephus history of the Hyksos is not 100% correct, but then again nothing in history is 100% correct. There us always a different account with new information .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:If you add

Jimenezj wrote:
If you add 80,000 with the Hyksos half million , you get pretty close To the biblical account. You have to remember that the Jews end up in Egypt because of a drought in Canaan. They go to Egypt in small numbers and leave with a large group. Could this large group be a mixed of Hyksos? History points to a yes. Who else would the Jews mix with other then the Egyptians? The Semite Hyksos. Who else would appoint Joseph , Semite Jew to the 2nd highest position in Egypt? A Semite Hyksos Pharaoh. Josephus history of the Hyksos is not 100% correct, but then again nothing in history is 100% correct. There us always a different account with new information .

Now you are just starting to sound desperate trying in vain to force reality to match your fantasy book. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Jimenezj wrote:If you add

Jimenezj wrote:
If you add 80,000 with the Hyksos half million , you get pretty close To the biblical account. You have to remember that the Jews end up in Egypt because of a drought in Canaan. They go to Egypt in small numbers and leave with a large group. Could this large group be a mixed of Hyksos? History points to a yes. Who else would the Jews mix with other then the Egyptians? The Semite Hyksos. Who else would appoint Joseph , Semite Jew to the 2nd highest position in Egypt? A Semite Hyksos Pharaoh. Josephus history of the Hyksos is not 100% correct, but then again nothing in history is 100% correct. There us always a different account with new information .

You are really grasping at straws, the hyksos and Osarseph are almost 200 years apart. one is of Hyksos were considered multi ethnic people, yet even if you want they are  they were NOT SLAVES, this is the big hole you are trying to plug with your statement. No slaves, ergo no exodus like the bible states. Nor were there 600,000 jewish men leaving egypt there as a total of 480,000 in the documents which would be composed of men, women and children. They Hyksos were driven from northern egypt

As for Osarseph his men were lepers, not jews, and he lead a revolt that led to a 13 year rule until the Rameses and Amenophis return to expel them from egypt, not let them go on their own accord after a plague and the death of egypts first borns. The lepers are never ever identified as jews. You are simply grasping at straws here big time.

Yes the documents are not 100 percent correct but the is zero evidence for the biblical exodus, it simply did not happened as described in the bible.


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You need to do more reading .

Many scholars interpret "lepers" non-literally: not as a disease but rather as a strange and unwelcome new belief system.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:You need to

Jimenezj wrote:
You need to do more reading . Many scholars interpret "lepers" non-literally: not as a disease but rather as a strange and unwelcome new belief system.
the

I have done my reading, none of it suggest it was jews. The other fact that you haven't covered is the 200 years difference, that Osarseph ruled egypt for 13 years before he was driven out. The lack of plague, death of the first born and how little each of those stories have in common with the OT story of the exodus. You asked if we believed if the jews where in egypt as the bible states, the answer is an astounding no, there is no evidence at all that the jews where slaves in egypt, there is more evidence that the buildings built in egypt were done by skilled paid labors, not by slaves, and not by jewish slaves. They were not oppressed by the pharaoh, the Hyksos as you tried to make the connection ruled egypt and again not slaves. So I have no clue why you simply can not accept the evidence at hand and need to twist it until it somehow fits the OT story, which clearly your evidence does not.


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Let's not forget what you said about the Apiru.

you said: " it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area Jews in Egypt"

Which confirms the Jews and Ramses in the Leiden Papyrus 348.

Then later , you changed the identification of the Apiru to a non Jew .
So who is twisting what?
You shot yourself in the foot. Plain and simple. As for contracted workers in Ramses ; there is no evidence of contracted workers in Ramses.
Unless you want to twist this too?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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I didn't change anything,

I didn't change anything, that is the term that Egyptians used for jews (the term comes up in the Stele of Seti and we know that they were fighting jewish tribes in Mount Yarma) however we also know that Apiru was also used to describe many other things, nomands, semi nomads, bowmen, migrant workers, etc, etc as I also mentioned that as well. I never shot myself in the foot, you made a claim, that the egyptians used asiatic semitic as a description, they never did do that at all that is historical fact. It is now up to you to prove that Apiru was not a migrant worker but a slave and more specifically a jewish slave. As for Rameses we have enough evidence that egypt was built by skilled workers for the most part, yes some slave labor was used, in the quarries but building was more or less done by skilled labour.

You also tried to get make it seem 2 different events, 200 years apart are some how the same as the exodus in the bible. By not slaves but by free people, yet you claim is the same as 600,000 jewish male slaves that left egypt and a mass of almost 1.4 million total jews. You are lacking evidence at all that this event as per the bible actually occurred. As we see that the egyptians had a documents about many events that occurred, about smaller scale stuff, yet some how this one huge event, with plagues and death of first born and the exodus of 1.4 million people, the loss of 20,000 soldiers is never recorded at all by the egyptians?

I never shot myself in the foot, you have so far by making your claims and unable to back them up.

 


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By the way, show me where it says slaves in : 

Exodus 1:11

Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:By the way,

Jimenezj wrote:
By the way, show me where it says slaves in :  Exodus 1:11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

 

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

My bad, I assumed that you at least knew what your particular version of the bible said, every bible I have read says things differently than the last one so I usually defer to the theists interpretation as to which one is the "right" interpretation. Excuse us for assuming your ignorance was isolated to the field of archaeology. From now on I will just assume you are ignorant of every subject you speak on and not take anything you say at face value.

So do you have any evidence that a million or so people left Egypt and wandered through the desert during this time period regardless of whether they were slaves or free?  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Jimenezj wrote:By the way,

Jimenezj wrote:
By the way, show me where it says slaves in :  Exodus 1:11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

I am going with what you stated in your post #45

Quote:

The evidence of the Jews in Egypt is the stele of  Rameses II on which it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves". 
Found by Archeologist C.S Fisher.

Now the evidence does not match your claims nor the claims in the bible, the Stele of VIII of ramesses shows that he cared about the workers conditions, he made sure they had water, food, clothing and sandals so that they could work in comfort and praised the workers building monuments, temples and other building. This is in contrast to the claim in the bible, Pi-Rameses was not a store-city, it was the captial of egypt, prior to Ramesses II making it the capital it was his fathers Summer house Seti I and was most likely founded by Ramesses I. Considering there is about 600 years difference between when Ramesses II made Pi-Ramesses the capital and when exodus was written, I can see how the jews most likely borrowed the story and made changes, most likely since it is called a store-city, which Pithom (tel Al-Maskhuta) at the time when exodus was written then yes it could be called a store-city, but i highly doubt that jews would have called the capital of egypt a store-city.


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Exodus 1:11 does not use the word slaves. We are lead to believe they were slaves. You bring up a good point that there is the possibility that they were not slaves. It is also possible that they were. Either way, there is no evidence that contractors or slaves were used to build Ramses.

We are left with the Apiru Semitic in Ramses or as you would say Jewish Apiru.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:Exodus 1:11

Jimenezj wrote:
Exodus 1:11 does not use the word slaves. We are lead to believe they were slaves. You bring up a good point that there is the possibility that they were not slaves. It is also possible that they were. Either way, there is no evidence that contractors or slaves were used to build Ramses. We are left with the Apiru Semitic in Ramses or as you would say Jewish Apiru.

i am going to go with the fact that you ignored what i posted. We do have evidence that contradicts the bible, there are problems with the description of Pi-Ramesses as a store-city when in fact it is the capital of egypt. That the builders were in fact well treated and praised by Ramesses II which contradicts the statements made in the bible about harsh conditions by the pharoah (which is assumed to be Ramesses II) ordering the deaths of male born children and pubishing builders of his new capital. That and the fact that it sered a population of 300,000, it was wealthy, and prosperous for all those that lived there. It isnt until 300 after it is build that it begins to decline and when the exodus is writtern, 600 years after it is built can it possibly be called store city. Sorry but there is no evidence that jews where their and that they built Pi-Ramesses under harsh treatment and conditions


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are you saying that capital cities do not have store houses?
Capital cities have many houses, including treasure and garrison houses.

a better question is:

why did you say that the Apiru are the Jews and then contradict yourself by saying that they are not?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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No a better question is why

No a better question is why call it a store city (something that it would have been 600 years later) instead of the Capital of egypt, which it was, it was a royal city, where Ramesses II made his home, moved the capital from the south to the north, a major event, prior to that it was his fathers summer house, this isn't some store city, this is a city of great luxury, of great wealth, not a stock area for soldiers and the front line.

I have not contradicted myself at all, you just cannot comprehend the fact that Apiru was used for various descriptions by the Egyptians, such as nomads, semi-nomads, bowmen, migrant labor, robbers, foreign serfs, rebels, raiders, mercenaries, servants, slaves, etc, etc, etc and the only description we have of them using it for jews (and again more like pre-jews not actual jews) is from a Stele of Seti talking about a battle with the apiru in Mount Yarmuta, which is an area 6 miles from Beith-she'an where it is known where jews and their precursors lived. I haven't changed anything, you just focus on one part and forget that the term is actually used in various forms from the egyptians and various other local tribes/nations.

I still agree that the egyptians used it to describe jews, however they used it to describe a lot more than just jews and trying to understand how they are using it matters a lot. You also ignore the fact that there is ZERO evidence for the biblical claim about exodus and the building of Pi-Ramesses, even worse there is evidence that completely contradicts the claims made in the bible about harsh working conditions and afflict their burdens, on the contrary we find that the workers were well kepts, fresh waters, lots of food, clothing and sandals, that Ramesses II praised the workers on their building skills etc, etc, etc. Why do you ignore the facts?


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Even worse for the biblical

Even worse for the biblical claim is no archaeogical evidence for jews in egypt or in Pi-Ramesses in or around the time it was built, however all the archaelogical evidence at the time is in Canaan, none of it is in egypt. So sorry but there is no evidence to back up the biblical claim at all.


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The Jews were wanderers for many years, even in Mesopotamia .
The Jews also robbed Egypt of it's gold.
The Jews under Moses and Joshua were a military /bowman and even
Mercenaries .

Read:

Hecataeus’ excursus (apud Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica 40.3)
  Translation by F. R. Walton, LCL, 1967, p. 281-283,

You keep saying that there is no evidence .
You have to remember that:

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no Jewish Exodus .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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 Yes and a the evidence of

 Yes and a the evidence of jews is in Canaan, that they never left that area, there is no evidence at all that they built anything in egypt, that only those mentioned by egyptians, but not jews, the archaeological evidence so lacking that archaeologists have stopped any searching for the exodus because it has become acceptted that it never happened. All the evidence shows the jews never left Canaan area. You dont haave to accept this at all, i realize you will never accept evidence at all that contradicts the bible. But no evidence of jews in egypt in the size claimed by the OT. Most scholars believe the story comes from various myth and stories from other tribes and nations from the area of Canaan but not thatbit actually happened to the jews as per the OT. Thats all there is to it


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Never is too much of a strong word. They were never in Egypt?
If they were neighbors , the possibility is that they were in Egypt .
Especially in a drought . Never say never.

Did you read Historian:

Hecataeus’ excursus (apud Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica 40.3)

  Translation by F. R. Walton, LCL, 1967, p. 281-283

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:Never is too

Jimenezj wrote:
Never is too much of a strong word. They were never in Egypt? If they were neighbors , the possibility is that they were in Egypt . Especially in a drought . Never say never. Did you read Historian: Hecataeus’ excursus (apud Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica 40.3)   Translation by F. R. Walton, LCL, 1967, p. 281-283

 

as per the bible no they were never there as per the bible, there never was 600,000 jewish male slaves (which was more than the calital of egypt) nor where there 1 million plus jews wandering the sinai peninsula. Yes they could have visited egypt , no they did not build any buildings as per the ot stories


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Greek Historian Diodorus Siculus, wrote in Bibliotheca Historica 40.3)

1. When in ancient times a pestilence arose in Egypt, the common people ascribed their troubles to the workings of a divine agency; for indeed with many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practising different rites of religion and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honour of the gods had fallen into disuse. 2. Hence the natives of the land surmised that unless they removed the foreigners, their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judaea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly uninhabited. 3. The colony was headed by a man called Moses, outstanding both for his wisdom and for his courage. On taking possession of the land he founded, beside other cities, one that is now the most renowned of all, called Jerusalem. In addition he established the temple that they hold in chief veneration, instituted their forms of worship and ritual, drew up their laws and ordered their political institutions. He also divided them into twelve tribes, since this is regarded as the most perfect number and corresponds to the number of months that make up a year. 4. But he had no images whatsoever of the gods made for them, being of the opinion that God is not in human form; rather the Heaven that surrounds the earth is alone divine, and rules the universe. The sacrifices that he established differ from those of other nations, as does their way of living, for as a result of their own expulsion from Egypt he introduced a kind of misanthropic and inhospitable way of life .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:Greek

Jimenezj wrote:
Greek Historian Diodorus Siculus, wrote in Bibliotheca Historica 40.3) 1. When in ancient times a pestilence arose in Egypt, the common people ascribed their troubles to the workings of a divine agency; for indeed with many strangers of all sorts dwelling in their midst and practising different rites of religion and sacrifice, their own traditional observances in honour of the gods had fallen into disuse. 2. Hence the natives of the land surmised that unless they removed the foreigners, their troubles would never be resolved. At once, therefore, the aliens were driven from the country, and the most outstanding and active among them banded together and, as some say, were cast ashore in Greece and certain other regions; their leaders were notable men, chief among them being Danaus and Cadmus. But the greater number were driven into what is now called Judaea, which is not far distant from Egypt and was at that time utterly uninhabited. 3. The colony was headed by a man called Moses, outstanding both for his wisdom and for his courage. On taking possession of the land he founded, beside other cities, one that is now the most renowned of all, called Jerusalem. In addition he established the temple that they hold in chief veneration, instituted their forms of worship and ritual, drew up their laws and ordered their political institutions. He also divided them into twelve tribes, since this is regarded as the most perfect number and corresponds to the number of months that make up a year. 4. But he had no images whatsoever of the gods made for them, being of the opinion that God is not in human form; rather the Heaven that surrounds the earth is alone divine, and rules the universe. The sacrifices that he established differ from those of other nations, as does their way of living, for as a result of their own expulsion from Egypt he introduced a kind of misanthropic and inhospitable way of life .

Man seriously you have to do much better, you are using a person who historically is criticized for being liberal with the use of facts and history and is considered a liar of antiquities by many scholars. Come on, there is still zero evidence that 600,000 male jews as PER the bible were ever slaves in egypt, forget 1 million plus with women and children. There is no archaeological evidence, there is archaeological evidence of far smaller groups, including hyksos which if we go with the documents we do have number 480,000 which is less than half of the claimed jews in the bible that were in egypt, yet they left no evidence that they were in egypt at all? Come on now you are not even using common sense. As per the bible the jews were never there. They never built Pi-Ramesses under harsh oppressing conditions (as we have evidence the Ramesses II was very generous to the builders of Pi-Ramesses and went out of his way to praise them and make sure they were taken care of) there was no plague mentioned by any egyptian documents of the time of Ramesses II (he still would have been Pharaoh of egypt of the time of Moses as per the bible) and trying to connect 2 different events Hyksos and the rebellion of the lepers 200 years apart at least is very very weak and grasping at straws, now you are using a person considered a liar amongst historical scholars.

You wanted to know if we believed that there were jews as per the bible in egypt that answer is still no, there is no evidence to back up the claims made in the bible that jews were in Egypt as slaves living under harsh conditions in which the Pharaoh ordered the death of all male born children, nor is there any evidence (on the contrary there is evidence that completely contradicts it) that they were building Pi-Ramesses under harsh conditions (even going to for the fact that they got it wrong it was not a store city but a royal city, the capital of egypt).


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The earliest accounts of Moses and the exodus outside the bible are by egptyian and greek historians (Manetho, Herodotus, Diodorus). You are saying that these historians are liars . If they are liars, prove it. As for archeology , you yoursel said that the Apiru were Jews. You can't run away from your statement . The hebrew exodus is a fact recorded by Egyptian , Greek , and Jewish historians . It is up to you to prove it is a lie, as you stated .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Hello

Hello,

Meneptah Stele would be one example of an ad hominem for the agnostics that are public schooled in communism.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Mantheos claim is weak, if

Mantheos claim is weak, if any at all because it is not from Mantheos at all but from Josephus claiming his source is from Mantheos as the origianl document from Mantheos is lost, does not exist. So yes I can call Josephus on this claim. Doidorus is called a liar from historical scholars and the fact that many of his claims are factually wrong as well does not bode well for your claim, so yes I am calling him a liar. The fact is he is writing from other historians and changes those facts does not help your claim. With that said he is making claims that are over 1200 years old by his time, no Egyptian documents from that time back up the claims made about a plague, moses or anything like that, also the lack of archaeological evidence in egypt from that time does not help you, in fact the evidence is in Canaan and not in egypt does not help your claim, and the evidence is for a far smaller tribe that 1 million jews, and depending on which number you use it can go as high as 2 million jews which is greater than all of egypt at the time.

"Despite the mass of contemporary records that have been unearthed in Egypt, not one historical reference to the presence of the Israelites has yet been found there. Not a single mention of Joseph, the Pharaoh's 'Grand Vizier'. Not a word about Moses, or the spectacular flight from Egypt and the destruction of the pursuing Egyptian army."

– Magnus Magnusson, The Archaeology of the Bible Lands - BC, p43.

You still have problems coming up with actual evidence, the exodus never identifies the pharaoh, which makes it incredible that they wouldn't identify their oppressor beyond pharaoh, or most likely the reason is because it didn't happen and was a story that was carried over from other tribe from the area they were at and so not to conflict with those other tribe they mere named their oppressor by title, yet Ramesses II we know made egypt prosperous and had many battle victories and there is a lot of documents about his achievements, it is hard to fathom that none of the exodus claims are not reported by Ramesses especially the 10 plagues.

As for Herodotus the only thing I can find about him and they egyptians and the jews is in regards Hophra which the jews get wrong because Herodotus identifies the Pharaoh Apries for the events described in Jeremiah.


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Why would one of the greatest pharaoh in Egypt report
That he was defeated by semetic shepperd Hebrews ?
So he can be ridiculed in history or so he can be praised as the
Greatest pharaoh in history? It is not rocket science .

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God.