Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Jimenezj
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Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?


latincanuck
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Jimenezj wrote:Why would one

Jimenezj wrote:
Why would one of the greatest pharaoh in Egypt report That he was defeated by semetic shepperd Hebrews ? So he can be ridiculed in history or so he can be praised as the Greatest pharaoh in history? It is not rocket science .

umm because they recorded their defeats as well, those are recorded, that and the fact that 10 plagues occurred wasn't recorded? that they lost their entire labour force? come on now you are just lacking common sense. The fact that history shows the exodus didnt' happen. that he praised the workers contradict the OT that is your huge gap you have to fill.


latincanuck
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You still have issues like

You still have issues like why the pharaohs are not identified, why is it they identify other pharaohs but not the one oppressing them? Or the one that sets them free, and sends an army after them and lost 20,000 men? Yet some how the egyptians never wrote about this at all? The pharaoh's didn't mention this at all, the decree to kill male born children? The plagues, the exodus of a 1 million people? They wrote about being taken over by 80,000 lepers by a rebellious priest for 13 years, being taken over by foreign rulers, the hyksos yet they never mentioned anything to do with the hebrews? no archaeological evidence of their wandering for 40 years in the desert by 1 million plus (again could be as high as 2 million which is more than the population of egypt). This just smacks in the face of common sense and the evidence that they never left Canaan as a group. That there never was 600,000 male slaves in egypt of hebrew decent. So how do you make up for these glaring problem? So far you have avoided them altogether or tried to make 2 separate events, 200 years apart at least who's number don't even match up to the 600,000 male slaves.

No you have lots to figure out still, one being the exact pharaohs described in exodus since they are not mentioned by name (making it much like its prophecies vague when it happened if it happened at all)


Jimenezj
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Why would they record that their Egyptian God Ra was defeated by YHWH with 10 Plagues ?

You said they recorded their Defeats as well. Were is this recorded at?
Can you prove it?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


latincanuck
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that is the problem isn't

that is the problem isn't it, the OT makes claims that are not back up by any evidence in exodus. So yeah at this point it is become a mute point to discuss this any further with you until you can get some real evidence to back up the claims in the OT in regards to the exodus actually happening.


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Gone too far addressing Jean (a.k.a. Super Troll)

Re:: Dana, Gone too far

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hello,

I am a trained logician and have shown the complete absurdity of agnostics that use imaginary time and call themselves atheists.

UnRespectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

Well, Hi Jean :


Jean as long as you are supporting Theists on the board, you might want to go to Fozie's 4.7 year old Thread called "It works for me". Little invite, it was talking about everything from morals to the afterlight the last two pages but it has hit a impass/impasse. Thought you could swing on by to check it out, he got a Troll badge not too long back, worth a look on your part if nothing else. I am sure he could use with the support.


With your ego, it is safe to assume there is far more darkness in you than in me. (Stupid, stupid stupid Dana last time you payed attention to Jean he mistakenly thought I was hitting on him). Personal note Captain Clueless, if I ever have a image of a heart shape in the future it is to remind christians (plural) of 1 Corinthians Chapter 13. MAYBE THE DEAD GIVE AWAY IS THE TEXT BEING QUOTED. But what can you expect from someone who would confuse a Cosplay videogame character costume www.cosplayshopper.com with that of a 'Occultic' practioner. Oh, Nice to see you about finally, but that really can't apply to Super Troll now can it ? I & one other person dubbed you that.

See :: Image


Jean Chauvin
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Hi Dana

Dana,

All I did was reference archeological evidence for the subject at hand. The Meneptah Stele according to the empiricism you subscribe to completely floors any doubt on the subject.

And instead of responding to this evidence you change the subject and dedicate a post to calling me names lol? This is a sign of an irrational absurd person or in other words a typical emotional woman.

Now if you have a logical reply towards your ad hominem lets hear it. Name Calling to distract from the subject and Red Herrings are so ingrained in your thinking, any hope of a valid proposition coming from your brain is deemed hopeless.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


Jimenezj
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latin

would you say that the Apiru were:

robbers or would you say that the Apiru were Hebrew nomads ?

I believe that the egyptians identified the Canaanites as the asiatic Amu and the Hebrew nomads as the Apiru.

the word Hebrew translates to " to go over or to go across as in nomadic invaders.

under egypt, the Hebrews were Nomads, servants, slaves and laborers, during the time of Moses in Egypt.
under Joshua, they were seen by the Canaanites as robbers, bowmen, raiders,and mercenaries during the conquest of Canaan.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:would you say

Jimenezj wrote:
would you say that the Apiru were: robbers or would you say that the Apiru were Hebrew nomads ? I believe that the egyptians identified the Canaanites as the asiatic Amu and the Hebrew nomads as the Apiru. the word Hebrew translates to " to go over or to go across as in nomadic invaders. under egypt, the Hebrews were Nomads, servants, slaves and laborers, during the time of Moses in Egypt. under Joshua, they were seen by the Canaanites as robbers, bowmen, raiders,and mercenaries during the conquest of Canaan.

Depends on the context of the use of the word, robbers, bowmen, servants, migrant workers, mercenaries, nomads, semi nomads. We cannot say that it only applies exactly to hebrews, we only know of one instant in which it is believed to be applied to hebrews (and again really pre-jewish tribe) which is a battle that the egyptians had in Canaan. Since there no real ethnic application it is almost impossible to state that it is strictly for hebrew since it shown that the apiru is used to describe many tribes/people from all over egypt and surrounding nations. It cannot be stated that it applies strictly to hebrews. As well since there is no evidence to back up  your claim that the hebrews were slaves, servants and laborers in egypt, it is almost impossible for you to make that connection only to hebrews.


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The main issue you are going

The main issue you are going to have is associating Apiru directly with only hebrew. It is associated with far more than just one group of ethnic people. As well I will have to back track a bit here as well, as I was informed by an archaeologist friend (who has an egyptologist friend) that there is another reference to pro-hebrews by egyptians as Shasu of Yhw, however Shasu merely means those that move on foot, basically nomads. However that does not mean they are slaves or even workers, they are mentioned as enemy tribe of egypt in the levant land, basically the area of Cannaan where jews came from, however they are never referred to as slaves in egypt, nor is any indication that egyptians took them as prisoners.


Jimenezj
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Technically the Hebrews were nomads in Egypt and canaan . They did not have their own land until the conquest at Jericho . How else would other nations identify them without their own land?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


latincanuck
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Jimenezj wrote:Technically

Jimenezj wrote:
Technically the Hebrews were nomads in Egypt and canaan . They did not have their own land until the conquest at Jericho . How else would other nations identify them without their own land?

Technically all the evidence shows they never left Cbanaan during that period of egypt and the references we have of the egyptians and hebrews are when the egyptians are in Canaan and battles in Canaan never in egypt and no references to the hebrew in egypt itself, also the fact that all archaeological evidence is in Canaan during that period and none in egypt shows more conclusively that the story itself is fiction or most likely borrowed from other cultures. As such you have to show that the egyptians only meant apiru for hebrew nomads and no other nomads/semi-nomand tribes in the area at the time. You have yet to even conclusively prove this. Nor deal with the fact that there is no archaeological evidence that hebrews were in egypt as per the bible.


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The proof is in the name.
The name “Apiru” is the Egyptian word phonetically equivalent to the word “Hebrew”.

The Apiru built Ramses as you know and the Apiru invaded Canaan as stated in The Amarna letters . These events confirm that the Apiru are the
Nomadic semetic Hebrews who were seen as bowmen, outlaws , mercenaries and robbers of The land Of Canaan and slaves and servants in Egypt .

Where do you think the people of Canaan originated from?
And were do you think the Hebrews originated from?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:The proof is

Jimenezj wrote:
The proof is in the name. The name “Apiru” is the Egyptian word phonetically equivalent to the word “Hebrew”. The Apiru built Ramses as you know and the Apiru invaded Canaan as stated in The Amarna letters . These events confirm that the Apiru are the Nomadic semetic Hebrews who were seen as bowmen, outlaws , mercenaries and robbers of The land Of Canaan and slaves and servants in Egypt . Where do you think the people of Canaan originated from? And were do you think the Hebrews originated from?

Really? that weak statement which will be utterly destroyed because the fact that Apiru is far older than jews and appears far far before the jews where even mentioned by the egyptians, summerians and hittie 800 years before the proto jews where even around, so no it does not mean hebrew, phonetically it is not equivalent to hebrew, the meaning does not mean hebrew. those event does not confirm that at all and you have yet to provide any evidence to such a claim. Since apiru used to describe people from (which now is modern day) iran, jordan, syria, turkey, lebannon and iraq. Since the jews are from a very small area in Canaan it is a far far stretch that they were all over that area and the egyptians, sumerians and various other only mean hebrew before hebrews where even around. You are so grasping at straws at this point. It is looking kinda sad that you are twisting things this much, yet it is so easy to show you the errors you are making.


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You need to provide evidence for your claims that the Apiru refer to those people you mention, during the time of Ramses II.

What makes you think that the Apiru/Hebrews were not around the time of the sumerians ?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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really? I have to? You mean

really? I have to? You mean all the archaeological finds and the scientific finds isn't enough? Archaeological finds that don't put the jews no older than 1202 BCE, that they never left the area of Canaan during the time of the exodus, well the proto-jews? The earliest text of the mesopotamian is from 1850 BCE which is used to describe local city state soliders, not hebrews. Summerian text from 1740 BCE that describes a peace pack with Semmuna and the habiru from Alalakh which is in modern day Turkey. The fact that no archaeological finds of jews are in egypt at the time of exodus supposedly happened. The hebrew which could be identified as those in the OT don't show up till around 1200 BCE which is still 600 years from the first known use. The jews that can be considered the founding of the jewish faith are not around till 1000 BCE give or take a few decades. Pretty much the archaeological finds do not back up the Exodus in any way or form, nor does it back up your claim that habiru is used for only hebrews or used the majority of the time to describe hebrews. You have to still provide some evidence of your claim, so far you have not even done that at all.


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Before I give you my input, do you know the diffrence between the Apiru and the Habiru ?

And what is all these archeological and scientific finds that put the Hebrews at 1202 BC. Can you name three?

You have still not provided any proof for your claims .

 Quid pro quo

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


latincanuck
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Jimenezj wrote:Before I give

Jimenezj wrote:
Before I give you my input, do you know the diffrence between the Apiru and the Habiru ? And what is all these archeological and scientific finds that put the Hebrews at 1202 BC. Can you name three? You have still not provided any proof for your claims .  Quid pro quo

Habiru is used mainly by Summerians, Mesopotamians and Hittie, Apiru was used by egyptians, the description I tire going over and over with you. You can look it up from now on for the meaning of the word.

First and foremost you have never provided any evidence for your claim, I have provided lost of it, you zero. However let me indulge you on this one.

The oldest mention of israel is from 1209 BCE from a stele which you have mentioned, which states that "israel was laid to waste and its seed no more" however achaeologists believe and the finds point that although yes there was a village which could be identified as israel from that area, this would have been pre-jews, basically the formation which eventually became jewish people. Such as the prohibition of eating pork and the prohibition of intermarriage. However various other village not connected to israel in the highlands of that area also did not eat pig which shows a highland custom more than a strict jewish prohibition, which is that israel was a city or village that egypt could have seen as a possible problem but not as an ethnic people. You can read more of this in "Biblical People and Ethnicity, an Archaeological study of Egypt, Canaan and Israel" From Ann Killebrew. As well the lack of archaeology to back up anything from exodus, which you can also read more about in William Denver "What did the biblical writers know and when did they know it"

Also since the oldest hebrew find (which is considered hebrew) is from late 1100 or early 1000 BCE which is the era which is believed when jews actually emerge as a religion and culture. This find was done by Hebrew University’s Yosef Garfinkel and Saar Ganor. But that is the oldest find so far. There is no archaeological find so far that his earlier from early 1100 BCE or 1200 BCE have been found, nor has the archaeological finds from that area from 1200 BCE or older backed up any claim from exodus at all.

Now can you do the simple part of providing evidence that actually backs up your claim at all, archaelogocial finds, egyptian documents that show Jews actually left in such a mass from egypt of 600,000 men? That is all I ask of you, can you do that simple task?


latincanuck
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I will simply state this,

I will simply state this, you can end this whole discussion by simply providing evidence for your claim that exodus actually happened as per the bible. IF you can do that, this whole discussion end, not by twisting words, not by ignoring evidence that completely contradicts the bible or the OT, but actual evidence that backs your claim. Simple task really.


Jimenezj
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You are correct on the Sumerian Habiru and the Egyptian Apiru. 
You are also correct on the name Israel found recorded in the stele  of 1209 BCE .

But you forgot that before the nation of Israel existed, the Hebrews were already in existence. You can't have Israel without the Hebrews . 

I believe that the confusion starts with the word Hebrew. Most people Including yourself believe it to signify a race or a nation. The evidence shows that the Hebrews are not a race or even a historical nation.

The term Hebrew has been related to a root, meaning "to go over" or "to go across"; hence, a "Hebrew" would be one who crossed over or one who went from place to place, a nomad, a wanderer, a designation that would fit some aspects of patriarchal behavior. A similar term, habiru, is found in Sumerian  cuneiform documents. 

Abraham was from The southern plain region of Sumer in Ur 1946 BC , during the last part of the Sumerian dynasty.

Abraham and his household were also the first Habiru / Hebrews also called Apiru. 

The first Hebrews ( to go across) was Abraham and his household the Habiru / Hebrews from Ur of the Chaldeans. 

Genesis :
And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

The Apiru built Ramses as you know and the Apiru (under Joshua) invaded Canaan as stated in The Amarna letters . These events confirm that the Apiru are the
Nomadic semetic Hebrews who were seen as bowmen, outlaws , mercenaries and robbers of The land Of Canaan and slaves and servants in Egypt .   

The proof is in the name.

You said:

Summerian text from 1740 BCE that describes a peace pack with Semmuna and the habiru from Alalakh which is in modern day Turkey.

You are also correct.

 (Hebrew: חָרָן, transliterated as Ḫaran) is a place mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Haran is almost universally identified with Harran, an Assyrian name of the Hurrian city whose ruins lie within present day Turkey. Haran first appears in the Book of Genesis as the home of Terah, his son Nahor, and the latter's descendants, and as Abraham's temporary home.

The proof is in the name Hebrew. 

Quid pro quo

You are a very smart person , but I don't expect you to understand this. Only God can help you understand. 

Farewell !

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Beyond Saving
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Jimenezj wrote: You are a

Jimenezj wrote:
You are a very smart person , but I don't expect you to understand this. Only God can help you understand.  Farewell !

ROFLMAO  Pure comedy gold. Have you considered doing standup?

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


latincanuck
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Jimenezj wrote:You are

Jimenezj wrote:
You are correct on the Sumerian Habiru and the Egyptian Apiru.  You are also correct on the name Israel found recorded in the stele  of 1209 BCE . But you forgot that before the nation of Israel existed, the Hebrews were already in existence. You can't have Israel without the Hebrews . 

That is the problem with your logic, it fails miserably, it is like saying before the New York city existed the Irish existed and you cannot have New york city without the Irish. The logic fails miserably, yes you can have a village, town or city called israel without the hebrews.

Quote:

I believe that the confusion starts with the word Hebrew. Most people Including yourself believe it to signify a race or a nation. The evidence shows that the Hebrews are not a race or even a historical nation. The term Hebrew has been related to a root, meaning "to go over" or "to go across"; hence, a "Hebrew" would be one who crossed over or one who went from place to place, a nomad, a wanderer, a designation that would fit some aspects of patriarchal behavior. A similar term, habiru, is found in Sumerian  cuneiform documents. 

To be specific the word Hebrew means to Pass over or to Traverse. However the origins of the word Hebrew are not known at all. However scholars, egyptians, summerian and ancient civilization scholars all disagree with your interpretation of Habiru/Apiru, like I said bring evidence, something you have failed again to do. As well Hebrews are both a culture and an ethnic subset of Canaanites. You have yet to present any evidence of your position other than ignoring archaeological evidence.

Quote:

Abraham was from The southern plain region of Sumer in Ur 1946 BC , during the last part of the Sumerian dynasty. Abraham and his household were also the first Habiru / Hebrews also called Apiru.  The first Hebrews ( to go across) was Abraham and his household the Habiru / Hebrews from Ur of the Chaldeans.  Genesis : And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. The Apiru built Ramses as you know and the Apiru (under Joshua) invaded Canaan as stated in The Amarna letters . These events confirm that the Apiru are the Nomadic semetic Hebrews who were seen as bowmen, outlaws , mercenaries and robbers of The land Of Canaan and slaves and servants in Egypt .    The proof is in the name. You said: Summerian text from 1740 BCE that describes a peace pack with Semmuna and the habiru from Alalakh which is in modern day Turkey.

if you don't bother to learn anything and just repeat nonsense I cannot take you seriously anymore. Let me start off that there are HUGE errors that you have here. Hebrews never left Canaan till after 1000 BCE, never before, there was no Hebrew culture till sometime after 1200 BCE at least didn't start to form and wasn't really concrete till late 1100 BCE. The hebrew were never near that part of the Levant. Forget the part that Camels were not domesticated till much much after Abraham and there were no domesticated Camels at the supposed time. With that said you have failed to actually provide proof that the robbers, mercenaries bowmen etc etc etc were Hebrew and not say Canaanites, or other nation. You have still not provided any evidence that the hebrews were ever slaves in egypt, you still lack this bit of evidence.

Quote:

You are also correct.  (Hebrew: חָרָן, transliterated as Ḫaran) is a place mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Haran is almost universally identified with Harran, an Assyrian name of the Hurrian city whose ruins lie within present day Turkey. Haran first appears in the Book of Genesis as the home of Terah, his son Nahor, and the latter's descendants, and as Abraham's temporary home. The proof is in the name Hebrew.  Quid pro quo You are a very smart person , but I don't expect you to understand this. Only God can help you understand.  Farewell !

 

You seem to not understand the biggest problem you have, you have not provided a single bit of evidence, much word twisting, maybe you can pray to god and get him to help you understand was evidence actually means. Farewell.