Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

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Were the Jews in Egypt as the bible says?

Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?


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Old Seer wrote:If you go on

Old Seer wrote:

If you go on line and do some research you'll find that there are insights that what amounts to the Jews becoming westernized and have no idea on how to use their original numeric alphabet. They do not have a proper understanding of their ancestry or religion. The old testament is written at a time when the Alphabet was still being used. And, it didn't rain H2o for 40 days and nights as we understand it. Waters denotes mentality or state of mind--they killed each other. And--if you floks out there don't get this damn thing fixed/changed you.re headed for the same. We can see it. There's no fooling the Psycho Smurfs, they know exactly what they're looking at. The evidence is---the numeric Alphabet. It is what is needed to make determination within the OT and some things in the NT. Can you explain to me "what" I believe. You are delving in assumptions. Under the circumstances and not being able to use their numeric system we are reduced to speculation. We Speculate from the evidence within the book that the Hebrews were in Egypt. There is no other evidence to show they weren't  as I can see there can,t be. I'm not asking you to prove an impossibility.  Then to say they weren't is also a speculation, and I respect your speculation. There is no feasible reason to think they weren't in Egypt. There is no evidence to back up any claim nor can I present any, nor did I make any claim they were in Egypt.  Lack of evidence???-I'm not presenting any evidence or tried to prove anything. Your asking to prove something I'm not trying to prove. We are wise enough to know not to make a statement as, the Hebrews never were in Egypt---there's no way to know that.  You may be shown wrong at a future time.

Again, back up your claim with actual evidence or academic studies that prove this. otherwise it is just mumbo jumbo


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So,

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

If you go on line and do some research you'll find that there are insights that what amounts to the Jews becoming westernized and have no idea on how to use their original numeric alphabet. They do not have a proper understanding of their ancestry or religion. The old testament is written at a time when the Alphabet was still being used. And, it didn't rain H2o for 40 days and nights as we understand it. Waters denotes mentality or state of mind--they killed each other. And--if you floks out there don't get this damn thing fixed/changed you.re headed for the same. We can see it. There's no fooling the Psycho Smurfs, they know exactly what they're looking at. The evidence is---the numeric Alphabet. It is what is needed to make determination within the OT and some things in the NT. Can you explain to me "what" I believe. You are delving in assumptions. Under the circumstances and not being able to use their numeric system we are reduced to speculation. We Speculate from the evidence within the book that the Hebrews were in Egypt. There is no other evidence to show they weren't  as I can see there can,t be. I'm not asking you to prove an impossibility.  Then to say they weren't is also a speculation, and I respect your speculation. There is no feasible reason to think they weren't in Egypt. There is no evidence to back up any claim nor can I present any, nor did I make any claim they were in Egypt.  Lack of evidence???-I'm not presenting any evidence or tried to prove anything. Your asking to prove something I'm not trying to prove. We are wise enough to know not to make a statement as, the Hebrews never were in Egypt---there's no way to know that.  You may be shown wrong at a future time.

Again, back up your claim with actual evidence or academic studies that prove this. otherwise it is just mumbo jumbo

 We have no evidence that proves the Hebrews were in Egypt except the book itself, and can find no reason to assume the book is false. There is no proof that I know of that the book is true or false on this matter. No one can say at this time.

 

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 Why do you use the book as

 Why do you use the book as evidence in the first place?  It would appear you have to already believe the book is true, in order to cite it as proof.

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Ok

zarathustra wrote:

 Why do you use the book as evidence in the first place?  It would appear you have to already believe the book is true, in order to cite it as proof.

Because there was a response to my post of cautioning on making claims without evidence. I don't mind if there are those that say the book is a farce. I didn't expect things would go to this extent.  But-if someone asks a question I will answer it as best I can. We find nothing about the book that we consider out of an ordinary civil society and it's consequences. Also we have a different interpretation overall. That interpretation will be questioned and we expect it to be-and want it to be- and ---we don't mind. Something new always becomes scrutinized.

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There is tons that is out of

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.


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Where did you

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

Come up with this word, believe. I don't recall believing anything in these posts. If I did them I didn't intend to. I reserve the word believe for specific things,. I said, we have no reason to believe that the Hebrews weren't in Egypt, We are waiting for one way or another, we aren't concluded on the numbers.. We can think they were there without believing in it. The problem is with their numeric alphabet. There,s probably something online where this can be verified, there very likely is. Try Wikipedia or an archeology or ancient Hebrew site.  I don't think you'll find much different then we did 20 years ago, we weren't on the internet then. There are some strange things in their history, we know that, There is plenty that isn't. Strange things don't negate the others.

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I may have said

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

Come up with this word, believe. I don't recall believing anything in these posts. If I did them I didn't intend to. I reserve the word believe for specific things,. I said, we have no reason to believe that the Hebrews weren't in Egypt, We are waiting for one way or another, we aren't concluded on the numbers.. We can think they were there without believing in it. The problem is with their numeric alphabet. There,s probably something online where this can be verified, there very likely is. Try Wikipedia or an archeology or ancient Hebrew site.  I don't think you'll find much different then we did 20 years ago, we weren't on the internet then. There are some strange things in their history, we know that, There is plenty that isn't. Strange things don't negate the others.

We believe they were in Egypt. Yes, we do believe they were in Egypt. The numbers are a different thing. We don't believe the numbers.

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Take look at this and

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

see if you can determine how many floks left Egypt. I'm not into kicking your guts out but this will give you an idea what I'm getting at. I haven't been to this site before this evening and I'm amazed at how close this is to what I've been trying to convey. I'm baffeloed.

I hope this works

 

http://doreenellenbelldotan.info/Six.html

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Latin

Stele Ramses II excavations

The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. Relics from the Egyptian period were discovered, most of them in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. Some are in the University of Pennsylvania and Museum in Philadelphia.

Archeologist C.S Fisher of the museum of 
Pennsylvania found a stele of Rameses II on which
He says it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves". 

In 1925 Fisher was appointed professor of Archaeology in the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR

Harvard Excavations at Samaria 1908-1910 [Volumes I and II] 
george Andrew Reisner; Clarence Stanley Fisher; David Gordon Lyon

Cern J.
1958 Stela of Ramses II from Beisan. Eretz
Israel 6: 75-82.

The Internet does not carry old info like this.
You have to do it the old fashion way of reading books.

Quid pro quo

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:Stele Ramses

Jimenezj wrote:
Stele Ramses II excavations The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. Relics from the Egyptian period were discovered, most of them in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. Some are in the University of Pennsylvania and Museum in Philadelphia. Archeologist C.S Fisher of the museum of  Pennsylvania found a stele of Rameses II on which He says it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  In 1925 Fisher was appointed professor of Archaeology in the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR Harvard Excavations at Samaria 1908-1910 [Volumes I and II]  george Andrew Reisner; Clarence Stanley Fisher; David Gordon Lyon Cern J. 1958 Stela of Ramses II from Beisan. Eretz Israel 6: 75-82. The Internet does not carry old info like this. You have to do it the old fashion way of reading books. Quid pro quo

 

Actually academic website do carry old information, now again, please what book? I have found information on C.S Fisher, I have not found any of them regarding your claim outside of theological websites, academic websites seem not to have this information regarding this find, which I find odd since they have his other finds included. So what book are you referring to.

All Stela of Ramesses II that I have found, none make that statement, the only sites that have so far made that claim are christian sites. Everything I have found, Asiatic Semitics was not used for jews in that area at that time, it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area. The Stela of Seti describes fighting tribes in Beth Shean, but not ramesses the II. The jews are free tribes folk in the descriptions, not slaves.


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Jimenezj wrote:Stele Ramses

Jimenezj wrote:
Stele Ramses II excavations The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. Relics from the Egyptian period were discovered, most of them in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. Some are in the University of Pennsylvania and Museum in Philadelphia. Archeologist C.S Fisher of the museum of  Pennsylvania found a stele of Rameses II on which He says it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  In 1925 Fisher was appointed professor of Archaeology in the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR Harvard Excavations at Samaria 1908-1910 [Volumes I and II]  george Andrew Reisner; Clarence Stanley Fisher; David Gordon Lyon Cern J. 1958 Stela of Ramses II from Beisan. Eretz Israel 6: 75-82. The Internet does not carry old info like this. You have to do it the old fashion way of reading books. Quid pro quo

rofl, it is a conspiracy! Not only does the internet carry information on any archaeological find, you can usually find pictures of the actual relics. For example, this one

is in the Brooklyn museum. If you are so inclined you can find close ups of the hieroglyphs and detailed translations. The internet is a wonderful thing that makes it really easy to expose liars for what they are. Also, most old books are available on the internet, scanned in and available for absolutely free through the wonders of Google, http://books.google.com/ Welcome to the 21st century, now can you point us to where this stele you claim to exist is?  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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The Euros of

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.

the dark ages were not qualified to interpret the book--yes. They did a #1 botch job. Because the Euros lack of understanding the forces of nature they considered those forces God. There's no way with their limited knowledge that they could see it any other way.

Atheists have the same problem with the book. Being they don't understand it they say it's a myth. I'm not a theist, and technically an Atheist. We understand religions, but don't let their ideas blind us. Go to Old Seers Corner in the general conversations forum to understand the "We". We have a different interpretation of the book then the Euros. One can be an Atheist and still understand the book. We interpret it from a basic Atheist mind set. The book isn't what floks think it is.   Smiling

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Old Seer wrote:latincanuck

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.

the dark ages were not qualified to interpret the book--yes. They did a #1 botch job. Because the Euros lack of understanding the forces of nature they considered those forces God. There's no way with their limited knowledge that they could see it any other way.

Atheists have the same problem with the book. Being they don't understand it they say it's a myth. I'm not a theist, and technically an Atheist. We understand religions, but don't let their ideas blind us. Go to Old Seers Corner in the general conversations forum to understand the "We". We have a different interpretation of the book then the Euros. One can be an Atheist and still understand the book. We interpret it from a basic Atheist mind set. The book isn't what floks think it is.   Smiling

Yet again lots of rambling, no evidence to back up your claim.


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Ummmm

 

Old Seer wrote:

The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other.

 

Watermarked, court-admissible video evidence or it didn't happen. 

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OK

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Old Seer wrote:

The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other.

 

Watermarked, court-admissible video evidence or it didn't happen. 

You either study our input to see if it be correct or not, or you have no place for criticism. Irrational statements without study rate nothing. Willful rejection of the book proves nothing without proper time and application of study. You can keep what you have or try ours. If you don't study ours then stay with what you have and then from what basis do you reject. I was informed by Alpha Smurf be fore I got here that Atheist were good thinkers, I might have to get back to them on that.

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So

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

What's within a document needn't be true or false--it is still an evidence. Agreed. I didn't present the contents of the document (bible) as facts. We side with the Semites over the Euros. In any court of law a document is a fact, but what's on the document can be contested. (As per Lawyer Smurf). Every material object is a fact. No material facts have been presented to show you to be correct. You have a claim or a statement or an insight. You have no possible way under the circumstances to claim being correct. We don't claim to be correct, and make no argument of, is or isn't correct. We find no reason to doubt the Hebrew story. 

If you go over the OT you'll find that--taking over towns and areas for resources was normal routine. I also explained that 40 years according to their original numeric alphabet may not mean forty--it may represent a word or have a conjuctional meaning. You may not be understanding my posts as intended. I also pointed out that this is a problem when understanding the book on it's material references and merits. Wishing the book to be wrong doesn't make it wrong. You'll have to be patient as we are for future findings. Why aren't the Jews still writing myths today if they are myth writers. As long as we cannot correctly understand their wording system we can make no claims---plus or minus. We don't have the facts.  As long as there is no material evidence we still can't make positive determinations. To us the Semite did better then the Euro.

 

Yet again, twisting words, the hebrew word is 40 years, there is no mistake in what they stated in the torah. Now lets try this WHOLE thing again because you seem to have the same issue as other theists, a lack of common sense and comprehension problems. Basically a lack of reality. First off who is WE, as your statement We find no reason to doubt the hebrew story? The story is massively in doubt, so much so that biblical scholars and jewish scholars don't believe it happened in the capacity as described in the OT/Torah. Even worse there is zero archaeological evidence that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert, the size of egypt, wandering the sinai peninsula, which is far smaller than the nation of Egypt at the time.

You are basically stating that 40 years is not really 40 years, even though it give specifically 40 years, not metaphorically or anything like, it states 40 years, yet you claim (with no evidence as always) that it is not 40 years. Second, your EURO thing is getting very very old, since the document was written in hebrew. Therefore no EURO influence you can claim in hebrew for the statements it make, and if there is this EURO influence when it was written then it doesn't matter really because 40 years is 40 years, it was written as such, there is a claim made, there evidence doesn't back it up. Please either present actual evidence to back up your claim, otherwise continue on with a fools rambling about Euro influence and that jews that read hebrew and scholars of ancient hebrew don't understand hebrew. You claims are much like your belief, lacking in evidence in any form at all.

the dark ages were not qualified to interpret the book--yes. They did a #1 botch job. Because the Euros lack of understanding the forces of nature they considered those forces God. There's no way with their limited knowledge that they could see it any other way.

Atheists have the same problem with the book. Being they don't understand it they say it's a myth. I'm not a theist, and technically an Atheist. We understand religions, but don't let their ideas blind us. Go to Old Seers Corner in the general conversations forum to understand the "We". We have a different interpretation of the book then the Euros. One can be an Atheist and still understand the book. We interpret it from a basic Atheist mind set. The book isn't what floks think it is.   Smiling

Yet again lots of rambling, no evidence to back up your claim.

you say. If you hate religion you hate people. We don't let hatred rule the mind. People need to learn not get kicked around. If you know something they can helped with--be helpful. Any claims we make can be easily reasoned by anyone.

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Old Seer wrote:Jimenezj

Old Seer wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Do you believe that there where more survivors after the flood vs only eight.

The book on the first count is about the lineage of a people in one region of the middle east. It's not about the whole planetary world. The migration out of Africa went fairly well world wide. As best as we can make it out only middle easterners are descendents of the Adamites. The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other. The same thing happens at the end times, and as we determined it- it will be the last event of the end time. There was people everywhere on the planet at the time of Noah. The Adamites may have been around for a few thousand years before the fall.   Smiling

This is the most dishonest pile of crap I've ever heard!

The Christian claim (and the Judean for that matter, since we're talking old testament here) is necessarily from the scriptures. Everything you've said there is an (awful) attempt to square the scriptures with what we know of reality. So I challenge you to explain to me the following; what use is this book if we have to discover things for ourselves before we understand what it really means? You're suggesting the following:

1. The book claims the first people ever were Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We're supposed to realize that to be not the case

2. The book completely ignores that the planet is populated by homosapiens all over the place. The word of god felt that was something that we could just ignore for now.

3. To add to point 2, that would suggest that god's omnipotence and perfection doesn't extend to his communication skills.

4. "As well as we can make it out" but this book is infallible, don't you ever question that!

5. The book says flood. Worldwide flood. It says water. It says the skies opened up and rained. It says it ended in a rainbow. But it wasn't h2o!!!!! Seriously???

6. So now "the flood" is a giant metaphor for people killing each other? The bible has no problem depicting that specifically, so why the sudden metaphor?

7. Based on crap you said earlier, now you're saying the same will happen in the end times? I assume you mean the prophecies in Revealations. Perhaps those are just metaphors? Maybe we will all just eat ice cream? Or finger paint? These propositions are no more of a stretch than what you've done with the apparent historical accounts of the bible. 

And then you proceed to say the same things again; the world was fully populated during that time...but an omnipotent being (who by definition would also be a perfect COMMUNICATOR) felt it unnecessary to mention as much.

You're lucky I live in Canada by the way...I've rolled my eyes so hard at what you've written that it's going to take surgery to put my face back to normal. Yay for universal health care! 

Theists - If your god is omnipotent, remember the following: He (or she) has the cure for cancer, but won't tell us what it is.


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Old Seer wrote:you say. If

Old Seer wrote:

you say. If you hate religion you hate people. We don't let hatred rule the mind. People need to learn not get kicked around. If you know something they can helped with--be helpful. Any claims we make can be easily reasoned by anyone.

Yet again you seem to fail to understand your position. Let me help you out, just because it can be reasoned out that the marvel character Wolverine would be able to defeat the DC comics character Batman doesn't mean that any of the comics happened or are based on reality, yes they may have real cities and may have some real world people in it, but just because something can be reasoned doesn't mean it actually has any basis in reality. For it to be have any basis in reality it has to have evidence to back up any claims made, there is no evidence whatsoever that 1.4 million jews wandered the sinai peninsula for 40 years. If 1.4 million jews wandered the desert there would have been some evidence left behind, there is far smaller tribes (a few dozen) that leave evidence behind, there is no reasonable explanation how 1.4 million people didn't leave any evidence behind whatsoever. Being able to reason something (which so far you have failed to do) does not mean that event actually happened.

As for your part of hate religion, I have said no such thing, I have asked for simple evidence something you avoid at all cost, much like all others that make lavish claims but no evidence to back up those claims other than twist words and claim that we are wrong and you are right.


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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't.

Yes.

See Bible Unearthed by Israel finkelstein pp 58-64

See Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw Oxford Press

Both Discovery Channel and History Channel have shown programs on this as well. Sites of camps from a few nomads dating back to 2000 to 3000 BCE. But nada from 600,000 plus mythical escapee slaves.

Archealogists have located the evidence of even pastoral wanderings from the 3rd millenium, the evidence of Egyptian forts all along the Sinai and even from the Byzantine period, but nothing, not a shard of a pot for your escaped slaves of thousands.

Old Seer wrote:

How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there.

Do a little research before you make unwarranted claims from hot air.

Old Seer wrote:

Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash.

Yep!

Mythical fantasy stories in the dimension of never was generally leave no evidence in the real world.

Old Seer wrote:

I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

For a  fantasy story in the dimension of never was to be claimed as real world as Jimenezj is trying, proof is needed.

You added no proof here, just more twisting and dodging.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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You are misconstruing what the stela says.

Jimenezj wrote:
Stele Ramses II excavations The University of Pennsylvania carried out excavations of ancient Beit She'an in 1921–1933. Relics from the Egyptian period were discovered, most of them in the Rockefeller Museum in Jerusalem. Some are in the University of Pennsylvania and Museum in Philadelphia. Archeologist C.S Fisher of the museum of  Pennsylvania found a stele of Rameses II on which He says it reads that He  "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  In 1925 Fisher was appointed professor of Archaeology in the American Schools of Oriental Research (ASOR Harvard Excavations at Samaria 1908-1910 [Volumes I and II]  george Andrew Reisner; Clarence Stanley Fisher; David Gordon Lyon Cern J. 1958 Stela of Ramses II from Beisan. Eretz Israel 6: 75-82. The Internet does not carry old info like this. You have to do it the old fashion way of reading books. Quid pro quo

Beyond Saving told you that one can find this info if one takes the time.

You own a Mac and are afraid of Google or something?

Twisting words from sources now are you?

Asaiatics as described herein does not indicate "Hebrew".

Variously described as the Apiru - robber bandits of the area, also possibly the Sea Peoples, the Hyskos (who were defintely Asiatics) etc.

You know one can actually use The Google to search the University of Penn's website of excavations and exhibitions don't you?

Here, try it - http://www.penn.museum/

See also:

http://igeonote.com/city/map/646335/beit_shean-hazafon-israel

http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/pdfs/3-2/beth.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0003_0_02880.html

http://www.penn.museum/search.html?q=stela+of+ramesses+ii&x=11&y=2

http://www.penn.museum/sites/biomoleculararchaeology/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/seapeoples.pdf

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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PJ

the Archeologist team from the University of penselvenia Directed by
Clarence Fisher, Alan Rowe and G. M. FitzGerald,
determined that the jews built Ramses .
If the Jews were in Egypt , then how did they get to Israel ?

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


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Jimenezj wrote:the

Jimenezj wrote:
the Archeologist team from the University of penselvenia Directed by Clarence Fisher, Alan Rowe and G. M. FitzGerald, determined that the jews built Ramses . If the Jews were in Egypt , then how did they get to Israel ?

Please specifically quote the expedition's report. A link to it at University of Penn will do.

In the one I have seen, your asserted claims of Jews aka Hebrews is not there. You must have a window into the dimension outside of our reality, can you please post it for all to see.

Here's a link to Fisher and others regarding the stele, it's down a bit - http://www.penn.museum/documents/publications/expedition/pdfs/3-2/beth.pdf

Your claim remains unproven. A stela mentioning conquests of 'apiru does not show they were anything other than the Canaanites, Asiatics, or robber bandits.

Here's a link to Fitzgerald's book - http://books.google.com/books?id=F9eGrmxT3ksC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn+1931707626&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qk0FUZGfM-eOiAKUj4CQCg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=isbn%201931707626&f=false

**** Edit added:

P 149 "Were the Sea Peoples at Beth Shanb"
"In his year 18 basalt stela, Ramesses II claims to have crushed the 'amu (Asiatics), as the Egyptian and Hittite acounts of the Battle of Kadesh make clear and as attested by a stela at Sheikh Sa'id east of the Sea of Galilee."
All people from Palestine were Asiatics to the Egyptians.

 

****End edit

You have asserted the Hebrews aka Jews were in Egypt but not shown this was so.

Canaanites, Israelites, Judahites were all derived from the same settlement patterns from nomads that settled in Palestine and are no different from one another other than the gods they made up and other regional cultural variances.

 

PS: The name Jews was not used until far later, after the Persian period, based on Yehud.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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I recieved an overnight

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't.

Yes.

See Bible Unearthed by Israel finkelstein pp 58-64

See Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw Oxford Press

Both Discovery Channel and History Channel have shown programs on this as well. Sites of camps from a few nomads dating back to 2000 to 3000 BCE. But nada from 600,000 plus mythical escapee slaves.

Archealogists have located the evidence of even pastoral wanderings from the 3rd millenium, the evidence of Egyptian forts all along the Sinai and even from the Byzantine period, but nothing, not a shard of a pot for your escaped slaves of thousands.

Old Seer wrote:

How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there.

Do a little research before you make unwarranted claims from hot air.

Old Seer wrote:

Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash.

Yep!

Mythical fantasy stories in the dimension of never was generally leave no evidence in the real world.

Old Seer wrote:

I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

For a  fantasy story in the dimension of never was to be claimed as real world as Jimenezj is trying, proof is needed.

You added no proof here, just more twisting and dodging.

 

note form Alpha Smurf---Advising-----

Advice: (As per our previous stand on archeology, to restate as reminder) We think it may be best to stay neutral on archeology. (I have been)There's really to many disagreements by scholars, changes, typical bias, bickering over trifles, wrong and conflicting analysis, and the main is bias. It is best to remain with the book as to make decisions, Dates are  often wrong and speculative. End of message.

I made no attempt, and had/have no intent to add to or prove any archeological input by anyone. We didn't and still aren't specifically anilyising Hebrew history within our group. That's not our interest. Our interest is the mental side. If you care to go back to my original post on this thread --I was merely cautioning from experience, on the use of archeology to make determinations. There was no intent to prove or disprove anything, and still isn't. Our experience with archeology led to a negative view and as far as we're concerned it's a bust. It may be useful for others but it's not for us. Hebrew history is no different than anyone else's. We found all civilizations start at the same place and end at the same place. We study/studied --why. South American and North American history is no different then  European history---it's the same with Hebrew history, and why, is what we deal with. If someone finds evidence of Hebrews in Egypt it will be disputed by some one else. We don't care. Smiling

 

 

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't.

Yes.

See Bible Unearthed by Israel finkelstein pp 58-64

See Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw Oxford Press

Both Discovery Channel and History Channel have shown programs on this as well. Sites of camps from a few nomads dating back to 2000 to 3000 BCE. But nada from 600,000 plus mythical escapee slaves.

Archealogists have located the evidence of even pastoral wanderings from the 3rd millenium, the evidence of Egyptian forts all along the Sinai and even from the Byzantine period, but nothing, not a shard of a pot for your escaped slaves of thousands.

Old Seer wrote:

How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there.

Do a little research before you make unwarranted claims from hot air.

Old Seer wrote:

Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash.

Yep!

Mythical fantasy stories in the dimension of never was generally leave no evidence in the real world.

Old Seer wrote:

I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

For a  fantasy story in the dimension of never was to be claimed as real world as Jimenezj is trying, proof is needed.

You added no proof here, just more twisting and dodging.

 

note form Alpha Smurf---Advising-----

Advice: (As per our previous stand on archeology, to restate as reminder) We think it may be best to stay neutral on archeology. (I have been)There's really to many disagreements by scholars, changes, typical bias, bickering over trifles, wrong and conflicting analysis, and the main is bias. It is best to remain with the book as to make decisions, Dates are  often wrong and speculative. End of message.

 

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer wrote:

I made no attempt, and had/have no intent to add to or prove any archeological input by anyone. We didn't and still aren't specifically anilyising Hebrew history within our group. That's not our interest. Our interest is the mental side. If you care to go back to my original post on this thread --I was merely cautioning from experience, on the use of archeology to make determinations. There was no intent to prove or disprove anything, and still isn't.

If so, why did you say anything in regard to it?

Old Seer wrote:

Our experience with archeology led to a negative view and as far as we're concerned it's a bust.

Why is that? Does it expose that the stories are legends and myths and can't be supported in the real world?

Old Seer wrote:

It may be useful for others but it's not for us.

The real world sucks for you does it?

Old Seer wrote:

Hebrew history is no different than anyone else's.

Storytelling does not history make.

Old Seer wrote:

We found all civilizations start at the same place and end at the same place. We study/studied --why. South American and North American history is no different then  European history---it's the same with Hebrew history, and why, is what we deal with. If someone finds evidence of Hebrews in Egypt it will be disputed by some one else. We don't care. Smiling  

So don't bother to discuss it then. I do not see you have said anything here worthwhile.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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If you didn't

Jabberwocky wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Do you believe that there where more survivors after the flood vs only eight.

The book on the first count is about the lineage of a people in one region of the middle east. It's not about the whole planetary world. The migration out of Africa went fairly well world wide. As best as we can make it out only middle easterners are descendents of the Adamites. The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other. The same thing happens at the end times, and as we determined it- it will be the last event of the end time. There was people everywhere on the planet at the time of Noah. The Adamites may have been around for a few thousand years before the fall.   Smiling

This is the most dishonest pile of crap I've ever heard!

The Christian claim (and the Judean for that matter, since we're talking old testament here) is necessarily from the scriptures. Everything you've said there is an (awful) attempt to square the scriptures with what we know of reality. So I challenge you to explain to me the following; what use is this book if we have to discover things for ourselves before we understand what it really means? You're suggesting the following:

1. The book claims the first people ever were Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. We're supposed to realize that to be not the case

2. The book completely ignores that the planet is populated by homosapiens all over the place. The word of god felt that was something that we could just ignore for now.

3. To add to point 2, that would suggest that god's omnipotence and perfection doesn't extend to his communication skills.

4. "As well as we can make it out" but this book is infallible, don't you ever question that!

5. The book says flood. Worldwide flood. It says water. It says the skies opened up and rained. It says it ended in a rainbow. But it wasn't h2o!!!!! Seriously???

6. So now "the flood" is a giant metaphor for people killing each other? The bible has no problem depicting that specifically, so why the sudden metaphor?

7. Based on crap you said earlier, now you're saying the same will happen in the end times? I assume you mean the prophecies in Revealations. Perhaps those are just metaphors? Maybe we will all just eat ice cream? Or finger paint? These propositions are no more of a stretch than what you've done with the apparent historical accounts of the bible. 

And then you proceed to say the same things again; the world was fully populated during that time...but an omnipotent being (who by definition would also be a perfect COMMUNICATOR) felt it unnecessary to mention as much.

You're lucky I live in Canada by the way...I've rolled my eyes so hard at what you've written that it's going to take surgery to put my face back to normal. Yay for universal health care! 

research our interpretations you have no basis for comment. If you can so analyze the Euro version (if you did) then do ours. All you have is a biased opinion. Show our interpretation to be defective. Start over on page 1. If you need any help let me know.

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:WTF

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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What you're getting at here is

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

They were no different then American society, is that so.

We are not about matters of claims. We are about matters of study and analysis. Our analysis bears no reason the doubt them. There is no proof one way or the other.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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pauljohntheskeptic wrote:WTF

dp

 


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Go to Old Seers Corner

Beyond Saving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

in the General Conversations Forum for a discription of the "Smurfs).

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


pauljohntheskeptic
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Beyond Saving

Beyond Saving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

I know.

He's trying to use the power of legitimacy here using a cult that seems to be using hallucinogens.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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We have no religion

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

I know.

He's trying to use the power of legitimacy here using a cult that seems to be using hallucinogens.

 

outside the belief in the human entity/person. There-fore we cannot be a cult. Technically we are Atheist. There is no God as the Europeans believe.

Edit-- we don't pray to ourselves --We don't have any reason to pray. We also believe in your human entity , but not your animal entity. We understand your problem.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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I had no original

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Jimenezj wrote:
Were the Jews Slaves in Egypt as the bible says?

 

I asked you in your last thread a simple question you ignored in regard to the Exodus.

"Where's the trash?"

 

600,000 men, plus women, plus children. plus livestock wandering for 40 years.

 

I missed it. My goodness.

I think I did answer this. OK-IF the Hebrews wandered through the desert and they left trash how would one know what's Hebrew trash and what isn't.

Yes.

See Bible Unearthed by Israel finkelstein pp 58-64

See Ancient Egypt by Ian Shaw Oxford Press

Both Discovery Channel and History Channel have shown programs on this as well. Sites of camps from a few nomads dating back to 2000 to 3000 BCE. But nada from 600,000 plus mythical escapee slaves.

Archealogists have located the evidence of even pastoral wanderings from the 3rd millenium, the evidence of Egyptian forts all along the Sinai and even from the Byzantine period, but nothing, not a shard of a pot for your escaped slaves of thousands.

Old Seer wrote:

How many other floks do you suppose wandered through the same desert for several thousand years. I would say from experience that there is a lot of trash out there.

Do a little research before you make unwarranted claims from hot air.

Old Seer wrote:

Holy Kow--can you specifically say that there is no trash in the desert they wandered through when every other desert on the planet has trash.

Yep!

Mythical fantasy stories in the dimension of never was generally leave no evidence in the real world.

Old Seer wrote:

I'm not asking you to prove anything---how about "reason". You have my take on the 600,000. You should ask a Hebrew Scholar to explain their ancient numerics, you very likely would get a "Duh". They don't use it any more and very likely it,s long gone over the hill.

For a  fantasy story in the dimension of never was to be claimed as real world as Jimenezj is trying, proof is needed.

You added no proof here, just more twisting and dodging.

 

note form Alpha Smurf---Advising-----

Advice: (As per our previous stand on archeology, to restate as reminder) We think it may be best to stay neutral on archeology. (I have been)There's really to many disagreements by scholars, changes, typical bias, bickering over trifles, wrong and conflicting analysis, and the main is bias. It is best to remain with the book as to make decisions, Dates are  often wrong and speculative. End of message.

 

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer wrote:

I made no attempt, and had/have no intent to add to or prove any archeological input by anyone. We didn't and still aren't specifically anilyising Hebrew history within our group. That's not our interest. Our interest is the mental side. If you care to go back to my original post on this thread --I was merely cautioning from experience, on the use of archeology to make determinations. There was no intent to prove or disprove anything, and still isn't.

If so, why did you say anything in regard to it?

Old Seer wrote:

Our experience with archeology led to a negative view and as far as we're concerned it's a bust.

Why is that? Does it expose that the stories are legends and myths and can't be supported in the real world?

Old Seer wrote:

It may be useful for others but it's not for us.

The real world sucks for you does it?

Old Seer wrote:

Hebrew history is no different than anyone else's.

Storytelling does not history make.

Old Seer wrote:

We found all civilizations start at the same place and end at the same place. We study/studied --why. South American and North American history is no different then  European history---it's the same with Hebrew history, and why, is what we deal with. If someone finds evidence of Hebrews in Egypt it will be disputed by some one else. We don't care. Smiling  

So don't bother to discuss it then. I do not see you have said anything here worthwhile.

 

 

intention of discussion. I merely cautioned against relying on Archeology. Everyone else took it from there causing a defense of my territory. If you care to--proceed.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


pauljohntheskeptic
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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

I know.

He's trying to use the power of legitimacy here using a cult that seems to be using hallucinogens.

 

outside the belief in the human entity/person. There-fore we cannot be a cult. Technically we are Atheist. There is no God as the Europeans believe.

Edit-- we don't pray to ourselves --We don't have any reason to pray. We also believe in your human entity , but not your animal entity. We understand your problem.

Whatever.

If you are atheist then why all the BS.

You seem to attempt to justify the story telling of the Judaites aka Jews as real in some way by metaphor or analogy. Why not just face reality and consider it for what it is.

I have previously read your Old Seer's Corner thread.

TMI that is meaningless And too little substance for validation.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


latincanuck
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Old Seer wrote:latincanuck

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

They were no different then American society, is that so.

We are not about matters of claims. We are about matters of study and analysis. Our analysis bears no reason the doubt them. There is no proof one way or the other.

Oh for fucks sakes, let play this fucking game, your version of fucking what? You don't present anything, you make delusional claims and have ZERO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP, so far you have done nothing but ramble, either present it or shut up about it, since you cannot present any evidence for your claim. Simple present the evidence, if you cannot then we are done here.


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Our analysis of the book

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

I know.

He's trying to use the power of legitimacy here using a cult that seems to be using hallucinogens.

 

outside the belief in the human entity/person. There-fore we cannot be a cult. Technically we are Atheist. There is no God as the Europeans believe.

Edit-- we don't pray to ourselves --We don't have any reason to pray. We also believe in your human entity , but not your animal entity. We understand your problem.

Whatever.

If you are atheist then why all the BS.

You seem to attempt to justify the story telling of the Judaites aka Jews as real in some way by metaphor or analogy. Why not just face reality and consider it for what it is.

I have previously read your Old Seer's Corner thread.

TMI that is meaningless And too little substance for validation.

 

shows that it relies on Atheism. There is no such God there-in as westerners claim. There is no external process/force that is/or creates Adam. We simply have a different interpretation of the book which shows us the Euro interpretation to be false. We have no objection to the criticism of others. That's the object---to give it to others for their analysis, If you don't scrutinize it for study how do you know what it is. The way you see it is "not" what it is. Apparently you would rather stay with a bias reasoning. OK--so do, Then its, not for you. that means you prefer the Euro version which is saying their version is correct. It's you're time being spent on it--not mine. There's only two basic ways to interpret the book--theirs or ours. If you don't want to study out ours---OK.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Jimenezj wrote:the

Jimenezj wrote:
the Archeologist team from the University of penselvenia Directed by Clarence Fisher, Alan Rowe and G. M. FitzGerald, determined that the jews built Ramses . If the Jews were in Egypt , then how did they get to Israel ?

The Stele of Ramesses II found at Beit She'an has the following inscrption


Year 9, 4th month of the second season, day 1 ... When day had broken, he made to retreat the Asiatics .... They all come bowing down to him, to his palace of life and satisfaction, Per-Ramses-Meri-Amon-the-Great of Victories

nothing about the Stele being built by Asiatic Semitic slaves, I have found no inscription as such from any stele from that site that states that, the ..... parts are unknown as they are unreadable. Even worse, they are not even described as slaves at all. Plus at the time that Egypt was occupying Beit She'an it was Caanites not hebrews as jews where identified in the Second Stele of Seti as a tribe living in the hills around Beit She'an as Apiru which are attacking another town, Ruhuma, that is the only mentions of jews per the Stele found in Beit She'an, I still want you to provide outside from christian websites where this claim of yours is found. I found the translations from a few different universities and the muesum of jeruselum. So can you please provide evidence outside of theological websites instead of repeating the same thing over and over. I don't dismiss that C.S fisher found them, as he did, but nothing in the translations of the Stele back up your claim. Second the jews where not in Egypt, the egyptians had done military campaigns in northern palestine, Beit She'an is located what is now nothern israel....how this is egypt or whatever you are stating is beyond me.


pauljohntheskeptic
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Old Seer

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

pauljohntheskeptic wrote:

WTF do Smurfs have to do with the price of Bullshit?

Old Seer's cult calls themselves smurfs.

 

I know.

He's trying to use the power of legitimacy here using a cult that seems to be using hallucinogens.

 

outside the belief in the human entity/person. There-fore we cannot be a cult. Technically we are Atheist. There is no God as the Europeans believe.

Edit-- we don't pray to ourselves --We don't have any reason to pray. We also believe in your human entity , but not your animal entity. We understand your problem.

Whatever.

If you are atheist then why all the BS.

You seem to attempt to justify the story telling of the Judaites aka Jews as real in some way by metaphor or analogy. Why not just face reality and consider it for what it is.

I have previously read your Old Seer's Corner thread.

TMI that is meaningless And too little substance for validation.

 

shows that it relies on Atheism. There is no such God there-in as westerners claim. There is no external process/force that is/or creates Adam. We simply have a different interpretation of the book which shows us the Euro interpretation to be false. We have no objection to the criticism of others. That's the object---to give it to others for their analysis, If you don't scrutinize it for study how do you know what it is. The way you see it is "not" what it is. Apparently you would rather stay with a bias reasoning. OK--so do, Then its, not for you. that means you prefer the Euro version which is saying their version is correct. It's you're time being spent on it--not mine. There's only two basic ways to interpret the book--theirs or ours. If you don't want to study out ours---OK.

Clearly as an atheist and a past education in parochial schools with a graduate degree from a Jesuit University and now very much a non-believer I do not accept the story telling legends and myths as the Europeans or as you say the Euros. The more I knew the less I bought it.

Nor do I see in them some ulterior hidden meanings as you do. There is no magical hdden puyzzle in their stories any more so than in the Sumerian stories of the Annuaki.

I see them rather as simply story telling as an effort to explain their past or more likely to create one. A past that does not exist in the real world. It is in fact nearly all mythical, legends and created fantasy. One can also see it as propaganda as well.

Yes there was a land once upon a time between Egypt and Modern Turkey. People lived there. They had cities. They had kings. Some of the cities and kings are mentioned in the stories in the OT. Some were real. Some probably not so. But that is also the case with the stories of Harry Potter, Jason Bourne and James Bond.

Does this in any way sound like I buy into the Judeo-Christian story telling as real? Not hardly.

I have studied the subject matter for over 40 years. In the last 20 plenty has come to light showing the supposed Hebrews and the Jewish Fantasy stories were not possible as described in the OT. Not to mention the magic and Sci-Fi which clearly sends the stories into the dimension of Never Was and Never Will be, aka Fantasyland.

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Evidence/archeology vs Reason.

latincanuck wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

latincanuck wrote:

There is tons that is out of the ordinary in the bible, from incest to the genocide, to stories of talking donkey's snakes, to talking burning bushes, the extravagant claims made throughout the bible, including exodus without any evidence to back up any claims, it cannot be taken at face value without any evidence to back up the claim. It is quiet understandable your position when all you require to believe it is a claim with no evidence to back it up.

They were no different then American society, is that so.

We are not about matters of claims. We are about matters of study and analysis. Our analysis bears no reason the doubt them. There is no proof one way or the other

Oh for fucks sakes, let play this fucking game, your version of fucking what? You don't present anything, you make delusional claims and have ZERO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT UP, so far you have done nothing but ramble, either present it or shut up about it, since you cannot present any evidence for your claim. Simple present the evidence, if you cannot then we are done here.

There's no way to go back to the time of Adam and find archeological evidence on the mentality of a group of inhabitants unless they wrote something to find. Their pots would look like any other pot, if they even had a pot to piss in. . Adam is not about material, they were about a certain way/mentality. We know of no way to determine how long ago they were.

I pose the question to you as posed to the Smurfs in 1985. IS, creation material or mental. It can only be one of those 2. If you determine as the Psycho dudes did then you have work and thinking to do. If not--you have nothing and so believe as you do. We don't play games with this sort of thing.

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

https://sites.google.com/site/oldseers

Knowledge trumps faith

Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Seer

 

Old Seer wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Old Seer wrote:

The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other.

 

Watermarked, court-admissible video evidence or it didn't happen. 

You either study our input to see if it be correct or not, or you have no place for criticism. Irrational statements without study rate nothing. Willful rejection of the book proves nothing without proper time and application of study. You can keep what you have or try ours. If you don't study ours then stay with what you have and then from what basis do you reject. I was informed by Alpha Smurf be fore I got here that Atheist were good thinkers, I might have to get back to them on that.

 

Pretty much everything that comes through your keyboard is a bald assertion yet you lack the self awareness to admit it. The chances you are capable of judging the merits of good thinkers is exceedingly low. In the post I reference you assert the reality of The Fall, on which hinges the kinetic energy of monotheistic doctrine. Without The Fall there is no genetic evil, no enraged lord above, no need for the ministry of jesus and no need for salvation at Golgotha.

If you can prove The Fall without reference to the fables of the bible, or any similar mythical tale, then do oblige me with objective evidence. If you cannot prove The Fall actually took place in a coherent manner, then agree your supernatural hypothesis for the existence of morality, based solely on the assertions of the bible, or similar, is entirely without basis. Perhaps you could get your campaign on the road by defining 'morality' for us.  

The fact you have contrived your own personal version of silly doesn't mean yours is the right one. 

 

Old Seer wrote:

You either study our input to see if it be correct or not, or you have no place for criticism.

 

This observation cuts both ways. If you are going to make objective truth claims "they turned evil, they killed each other, it was Armageddon" then objective evidence is required. Bodies, weapons. Unbiased supporting narratives. Whatever you've got. The Fall is the fulcrum of a spiderweb of bald assertions. It requires unimpeachable proof. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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This logic

 

Old Seer wrote:

I pose the question to you as posed to the Smurfs in 1985. IS, creation material or mental. It can only be one of those 2. If you determine as the Psycho dudes did then you have work and thinking to do. If not--you have nothing and so believe as you do. We don't play games with this sort of thing.

 

begs the question of 'creation'. We must assume that you assert material reality is purely mental and further, you impose the false dichotomy that a thing must be either material or mental. You assert this at a time of insufficient understanding of the nature of neurology for us to know what thoughts are made of.

Then there's material - something that occupies space and possesses mass. And of course, once we get deeper into particle physics it becomes clear that matter is made of virtually nothing at all. No physicist would claim the standard model allows humans to understand matter. So despite your probable aim, what you are essentially arguing here is that we either don't know what our sense data is telling us, or we don't know what our sense data is telling us. This being an observation with which I fully concur. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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You want us to do things your way.

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Old Seer wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Old Seer wrote:

The flood as we determine it wasn't H2o. The flood was an Armageddon of it's time. They became so evil minded they couldn't sustain there social fixture and killed each other.

 

Watermarked, court-admissible video evidence or it didn't happen. 

You either study our input to see if it be correct or not, or you have no place for criticism. Irrational statements without study rate nothing. Willful rejection of the book proves nothing without proper time and application of study. You can keep what you have or try ours. If you don't study ours then stay with what you have and then from what basis do you reject. I was informed by Alpha Smurf be fore I got here that Atheist were good thinkers, I might have to get back to them on that.

 

Pretty much everything that comes through your keyboard is a bald assertion yet you lack the self awareness to admit it. The chances you are capable of judging the merits of good thinkers is exceedingly low. In the post I reference you assert the reality of The Fall, on which hinges the kinetic energy of monotheistic doctrine. Without The Fall there is no genetic evil, no enraged lord above and no need for ministry of jesus no need for Golgotha.

If you can prove The Fall without reference to the fables of the bible, or any similar mythical tale, then do oblige me with objective evidence. If you cannot prove The Fall actually took place in a coherent manner, then agree your supernatural hypothesis for the existence of morality, based solely on the assertions of the bible, or similar, is entirely without basis. Perhaps you could get your campaign on the road by defining 'morality' for us.  

The fact you have contrived your own personal version of silly doesn't mean yours is the right one. 

 

Old Seer wrote:

You either study our input to see if it be correct or not, or you have no place for criticism.

 

This observation cuts both ways. If you are going to make objective truth claims ("they turned evil, they killed each other, it was Armageddon&quotEye-wink then objective evidence is required. Bodies, weapons. Unbiased supporting narratives. Whatever you've got. The Fall is the fulcrum of a spiderweb of bald assertions. It requires unimpeachable proof. 

 

 

There are times when we do things your way.There are times and things when the two mindsets merge. You are equating us within the Euro mind set--we're past that. It is one reason you're having troubles with this. Also- there is no competition from our side of the works. Competition is an animal trait, so we do our best to refrain from animal concepts or being. We don't adhere to the Euro mind set in the book. I an merely responding to the postings.

Truth is in the mind of one's own minds eye. We can say it's true but we expect you (anyone) to find for them selves. One man's turd is another man's art. We make no attempt to make truth for anyone else.

Lets look at your angry God idea. JC points to, God dwells in man. That is consistent with the likes of Adam in our understanding. Being Adam is God then gods anger is from person to person. Could this also be applied to the flood of Noah. An apostle points out-- you cannot serve god without serving man. This points to God as an interaction between people/persons. (I'm correlating some things for you) In the NT JC is noted as Adam the 2nd, which means he is a likeness of the prime ancestor. That also means that the Apostles see Adam the same as JC. Adam is a proper human personage derived from the denial of allowing animal traits to be the means of relating to one another. In the book when you're dealing with God you're dealing with people.

OK---In the beginning was the word (JC is termed "the word&quotEye-wink and the word was with God, and the word was God. Adam is in the beginning-Adam is the God this is referring to. That's why JC is the son of God-in the likeness of Adam. JC reffers to himself as "the son of man", why--he is being consistent with Adam/man in the beginning. This is why creation must be understood. Creation itself is the word--that Adam is created according to.

OK, back to the anger thing---In Rev you'll see anger---that's anger of people, caused by something they didn't know before. There is no anger in the book unattached to people. Attaching god separate of people is the euro mind. You'll find that in places the prophets are referred to as God. Armageddon happens because people loose control. There is no free floating entity in the universe, the book shows that ---in our interpretation.

In the Euro lands they never had a fall. The fall is strictly Semite. The Euros at no time were Adam. The book has nothing to do with their ancestry. And likewise, if they don't know the relation between Adam and JC they never were Christian. The fall is Adam changing back to being an ordinary personage as you and I.

Also for understanding--there is no term in Hebrew, God. We use it because that's what everyone else goes by. This is one thing we merge with ours for convenience.

You'll see that there's no forensic evidence needed, it's a matter of reasoning.  There can be no material evidence that Adam changed his mind except the wars, strifes, and general troubles of his descendants. The very mentality of his descendants are seen to this time. It was JC's mission to get them back to the likeness of Adam---that they fell away from.

You keep thinking we are of the Euro Biblical doctrines---not so.

Video cameras weren't available at the time of Noah.   Smiling

 

 

 

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Chuckle

 

Old Seer wrote:

Video cameras weren't available at the time of Noah.   Smiling

 

That part was actually a leg-pull, Seer. In another forum I visit relating to 4WD antics, a claimed successful transit of a technical section is considered dubious until the poster nails a slab of H.264 to the wall. The cry is "Video or it didn't happen..."  

In that particular moment, considering the various truth claims being made about Armageddon and antiquarian mass murder, that same catch-cry sprang to my mind. Video or it didn't happen. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I guess you can see

 

Old Seer wrote:

You'll see that there's no forensic evidence needed, it's a matter of reasoning.  

 

How this is a problem for the empiricist.

I think reason is something that can be applied to things learned using sense data, which is our connection to what we think of as the material world. Of course, in the process of bending and replicating reality, it seems to me it's possible for human brains to create alternative 'realities' or explanations for which no real proof exists. Personally, I have no problem with lateral explanations for things so long as it's recognised that these explanations may not always be proven in the same way as other aspects of reality.

For instance, we would all agree the sun exists. It's big, hot, and in your face. Conversely, there is no proof of any supernatural being, nor yet a definition of how a supernatural thing could possibly be. Humans are limited in their capability to comprehend such things, forced to describe the immaterial on the basis of the material, using comprehensible metaphors. A god is a father, is angry, sad, loving, strong, jealous, a warm oxytocin feeling, a fire, a wind, a pillar of smoke. But whatever a god is, we never see it described as anything that's not perfectly familiar to us.

I always wrestle with the apparent difficulty theists have in recognising the underlying truth of this material limiter. I think a cognitive metabias like religion or spiritualism is a learned thing. Very young children are not sophisticated enough for such self deceptions and rely more profoundly on sense experience. The other day I was telling my 4-year-old niece Eliza a silly story and as part of this I told her there was a Glump in the cupboard. Without hesitation she asked me: "What does a Glump look like?"

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I don't need an acute understanding of neurology.

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Old Seer wrote:

I pose the question to you as posed to the Smurfs in 1985. IS, creation material or mental. It can only be one of those 2. If you determine as the Psycho dudes did then you have work and thinking to do. If not--you have nothing and so believe as you do. We don't play games with this sort of thing.

 

begs the question of 'creation'. We must assume that you assert material reality is purely mental and further, you impose the false dichotomy that a thing must be either material or mental. You assert this at a time of insufficient understanding of the nature of neurology for us to know what thoughts are made of.

Then there's material - something that occupies space and possesses mass. And of course, once we get deeper into particle physics it becomes clear that matter is made of virtually nothing at all. No physicist would claim the standard model allows humans to understand matter. So despite your probable aim, what you are essentially arguing here is that we either don't know what our sense data is telling us, or we don't know what our sense data is telling us. This being an observation with which I fully concur. 

The 3 Psycho Smurfs handle that. The conformation is theirs that creation is of a mental nature. Mine was suspicion. They seen patterns of the possibility and after study concluded it was. The Physics Smurf agreed with me that it wasn't possible in physics.

I'm not arguing. We don't argue.

I'm a physicist, I know about physics.

There is also Doctor Smurf, a GP.

Archeology Smurf.

Bio Smurf

Farmer Smurf

Lawyer Smurf.

2 Electronics--we call Hacker Smurfs, previous electronic business operators.

Seller Smurf, a saleman of some type, I suspect insurance.

Other business types in various enterprises.

30 in all.

That's why it's a Smurfdom

Alpha Smurf is all us together. I post this so you'll know I need to be of no expertise, they are. So any question of any stupidity on my part is moot. Smiling

Ok, now that that's settled.

This is not about material, it's about the mind and how it's situated. That's what the book is about.

After a year or two into the study a uniqueness was detected. See this page if you haven't already.

http://doreenellenbelldotan.info/Six.html

The second last paragraph where it says--this is an entirely different system of reasoning and reckoning. It is why you are having a tuff time understanding--and it's excusable. It takes time to see what this is.

Ok. look at your input ---we must assume that you assert material reality is purely mental---no. We separate the mental from the material. For clarity only, look at the mental as the invisible and non material for a moment. That leaves the material the visible and atomically structured. Creation is only the former, and material is not considered. That makes creation mental only absent of material. Now---put that in a brain, the mental remains the mental and the brain is material that is needed for the mental to exist. That means the brain forms the mental but the mental is not the material brain.

Now to where you refer to-Matter is made virtually of nothing. This is somethi9ng we encountered---can the brain produce something that is not material,,,,,we don't know. because in the book it refers to the invisible which is a description of one's person. To them it may seem invisible because it can't be seen, if, what they call invisible is really material.

On this subject for intro purposes for understanding--there are only 2 things that exist in the universe, material and the spiritual. Each divides into it's various things. From the spiritual come hate, love, joy, sadness etc. For a moment consider them non material (which may not be true). Let's go to the big bang. If before the big bang there was nothing, and from nothing came the material, and from the material comes evolution, and from that comes a brain, and within the brain there is person, then is the person material (this is a discussion type that my son and I have) OR, does the brain produce a non material which is the same as nothing before the big bang. ???

So let's back up a bit. We are more convinced that the universe contains material only. What's invisible is the electrons or sub atomic particles that the brain is capable of using. How it uses and works still has to be found. And the ancients had no knowledge as we do today of the material structure. To them it would be the invisible. For explanations sake--this is what in our interpretation is what Creation is about, the end product being thought and mental condition. We interpret creation as a mental structure rather then physical. And it works precisely to understand the rest of the book.

Here's a simple insight of how creation is situated. There are waters above and below the firmament. Waters is equal to mind, mental, mental states, ideas, and thoughts. We all are of two mental states and a neutral. The two mental states are the humane and the inhumane. The inhumane is the waters (mental state) above, and the humane is the waters below. Why is this-from the inhumane comes the animal characters, from the human comes the human characters. Because the animal mind strives to be above one another it is of the upper waters. The Humane is below. Note that creation deals only with waters below, the human condition. If creation is the making of Adams mental state then it denotes Adam minus animal characters.

Off to the tower of Babel. The tower is to go above the heights of the heavens---what's up there--the animal state. What's happening there--a civilization is forming. In civilization floks strive to be above one another. What does this mean-it meanss that civilizations are founded on animal principals. Consider why civilizations have never worked--they can't solve the problems they create. Animal creates more animal and-----Kaboom. No one looses their humanity--it's just not what civilization exist on. It's a 20/80 deal. The animal wins. Ask congress person Ripov. From this one can see why there's all the problems. This book is written by those that have been there--and they knew. Now someone else knows.

 

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Lies are nothing more then falsehoods searching for the truth


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Have a good

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Old Seer wrote:

Video cameras weren't available at the time of Noah.   Smiling

 

That part was actually a leg-pull, Seer. In another forum I visit relating to 4WD antics, a claimed successful transit of a technical section is considered dubious until the poster nails a slab of H.264 to the wall. The cry is "Video or it didn't happen..."  

In that particular moment, considering the various truth claims being made about Armageddon and antiquarian mass murder, that same catch-cry sprang to my mind. Video or it didn't happen. 

 

 

nights rest AE. It's the weekend--time to do stupid stuff.    Smiling

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.

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PJ

I believe it is stated in :

 A. Rowe,
The Topography and History of Beth-Shan 
(Philadelphia: University Press, 1930).

The quote is from C.L Fisher saying that he
"built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves". 

I will try to get the complete stele translation.

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


latincanuck
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Jimenezj wrote:I believe it

Jimenezj wrote:
I believe it is stated in :  A. Rowe, The Topography and History of Beth-Shan  (Philadelphia: University Press, 1930). The quote is from C.L Fisher saying that he "built Raamses with Asiatic Semitic (Hebrews) slaves".  I will try to get the complete stele translation.

I checked it out.....and no I have not found this quote at all, (again outside of christian webistes) considering that beth-shean was an egyptian outpost in northern Palistine, which would be the area where jews where living at the time, which still doesn't do the following, A: prove that jews where slaves in Egypt, B: there was 1.4 million of them (as they could have taken beth she'an no problem considering it was an outpost with no more than a few 1000 men), which wouldn't explain how they lost the battle described in the stele of seti.

These are very much important facts that we have, which does not support the biblical claims, plus the descriptions of jews in beth-she'an are more after the egyptians lost beth-she'an in the A. Rowe book, not during, during it was the Canaanites which leads more support of the claim that the exodus is describing Canaaities, not jews. Third most important of it all, no egyptian documents lists anything happening like the great plague, the death of the first borns or the mass exodus of slaves, nothing at all. The egyptians had lots of documents and contracts, a mass exodus would have made many contracts unenforceable yet, there is nothing out of the ordinary, which leads more credence that it is a work of fiction or borrowed from another tribe that the jews lived nearby and included in their history, but exaggerated their numbers.


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PJ

Apiru = Jews

as stated on post # 60 by latin.

" it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area"

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


Jimenezj
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Latin

you said:

it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area

Jews in Egypt:

Leiden Papyrus 348, a decree by an official of Ramesses II concerning construction work at his new capital, Pi-Ramesses, declares: “Distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the Apiru who transport stones to the great pylon of Ramesses.”

appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. If there is positive evidence for the conclusion, then of course we have other reasons for accepting it, but a lack of evidence by itself is no evidence for a no God. 


latincanuck
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Jimenezj wrote:you said:

Jimenezj wrote:
you said: it is Apiru the term egyptian documents use for jews in the area Jews in Egypt: Leiden Papyrus 348, a decree by an official of Ramesses II concerning construction work at his new capital, Pi-Ramesses, declares: “Distribute grain rations to the soldiers and to the Apiru who transport stones to the great pylon of Ramesses.”

yes, and yet still does not mean they were slaves, egyptians made contracts for construction with various foreign tribes, this is also known, however yet again, it does not mean they are slaves, and it still does not provide the following problems with the bible.

A) that 1.4 million jews (if we take the bible at its word) did a mass exodus of egypt and that the egyptians left no record of such mass exodus.

B) that 1.4 million jews wandered the desert for 40 years without ever leaving any trace.

Those are the two biggest gaps that this story has, as I stated before the jews in egypt as per the bible no they were not there. Maybe as a few working or even being slaves, but not in masses that exceeds almost the entire population of egypt and every other tribe/nation in that area at that time. I personally do not believe the exodus occured as described in the bible, or that it happened at all to the jews.