Has anyone been converted by this forum??

ssalvia
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Has anyone been converted by this forum??

 Hey guys,

 

Been watching this forum for a little while. I've been thinking, since pretty much all theists and athiests I've ever met are very stubborn about their beliefs, are there any people on this forum who have been converted to athiesm from coming to this site? Or even people who have been converted to theistic beliefs?

 

Also, why are people so damn stubborn about this issue? I mean, from scientologists to athiests, everyone is convinced they are correct. I'm kinda wondering whether its because of indoctrination, or whether its just human nature. But I digress!

 

S.


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Debate tends to firm up

Debate tends to firm up personal beliefs.  Someone here will give you the fancy word for the behavior.

 

I've seen people go from agnostic to atheist.  I've seen quite a bit of movement, sometimes drastic, among the specific beliefs of the atheists as well...there has not been as much of it lately, but one of my favorite things about this forum is not atheist vs. theist but atheist vs atheist.  The thing I find refreshing is how willing most of the atheists are to rethink pretty major issues if someone can provide a good argument.  Not always, of course.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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I know at least two people

I know at least two people who's beliefs had changed since coming to this website, Cpt_Pineapple and JustAnotherBeliever. Although, I can't say that it was entirely or even mostly because of this forum.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:I know at

butterbattle wrote:

I know at least two people who's beliefs had changed since coming to this website, Cpt_Pineapple and JustAnotherBeliever. Although, I can't say that it was entirely or even mostly because of this forum.

 

And at least in Capt. case I would hesitate to call it theist-atheist, even if that is technically true.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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The majority of people who

The majority of people who have found this site have probably already thought a lot about the subject. You don't really google "atheism" randomly. I know once I have thought about a subject in depth I don't usually change my mind drastically because of what others say. I might adjust my opinions a little but rarely do a 180. Actually I can only think of one time I did a 180 and that was about the death penalty and had nothing to do with any website. But debate is one of the best ways to gain a true understanding of your own beliefs.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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ssalvia wrote: Atheist and theist,very stubborn...beliefs

   Well,first off atheist constantly change their minds (if there is empirical evidence) that shows us a new way of thinking,atheist usually don't conform to a set of beliefs.As for me reading the thread's,it has made me more of a Atheist,now I would consider myself a Militant Atheist. I've learned about books to read and what author's I should listen to, like Sam Harris,Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens etc. .   

Signature ? How ?


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ssalvia wrote: Also, why

ssalvia wrote:

 Also, why are people so damn stubborn about this issue? I mean, from scientologists to athiests, everyone is convinced they are correct. I'm kinda wondering whether its because of indoctrination, or whether its just human nature. But I digress!

I don't believe theists do have a strong belief, that is why they avoid dating us. Strange for Christians that believe they will be judge by how well they spread and defend the gospel. They do have tons of doubt, but believing makes them feel better than not believing so they just don't listen to anything we have to say.

I disagree with your premise that theists actually believe, what they do is feel. It's not belief in god that they have, it's a belief that believing feels better than not believing. It's a belief in a belief.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN8BHD9sXJ8

 

 

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Yeah to this.

EXC wrote:

I disagree with your premise that theists actually believe, what they do is feel.

 

Repentance, resurrection in christ, etc, they're all intense emotional experiences. Might explain why lots of kids and young teens are convinced but many grow away as their prefrontal cortex takes a more pronounced role in their thinking processes.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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I was a theist when I first

I was a theist when I first found out about this site. I am an atheist now. This site was one of many factors which helped me drop my beliefs.


 

I don't understand why the Christians I meet find it so confusing that I care about the fact that they are wasting huge amounts of time and resources playing with their imaginary friend. Even non-confrontational religion hurts atheists because we live in a society which is constantly wasting resources and rejecting rational thinking.


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Me!

 

 

 

                         I was once a confussed unbelieving type personage;  yet since I joined the RRS I have become a left-handed un-believing type personage.  Thank you Brian Sapient:  so much!

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mellestad wrote:I've seen

mellestad wrote:

I've seen people go from agnostic to atheist.  

 

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I have found on this forum that I am an atheist agnostic.  I mean that two terms can technically come together.  

 

Yes, and this forum is way better than any religilous forum ... just for that it does not ban users for their beliefs.  


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ssalvia wrote: Hey

ssalvia wrote:

 Hey guys,

 

Been watching this forum for a little while. I've been thinking, since pretty much all theists and athiests I've ever met are very stubborn about their beliefs, are there any people on this forum who have been converted to athiesm from coming to this site? Or even people who have been converted to theistic beliefs?

 

Also, why are people so damn stubborn about this issue? I mean, from scientologists to athiests, everyone is convinced they are correct. I'm kinda wondering whether its because of indoctrination, or whether its just human nature. But I digress!

 

S.

 

hi saliva.........only a couple of weeks........used to be out an' out fundie........now rabid evo'............................not!

 

good ol' Jeff..........still the funniest signature!..........Jeff, did you mean, "confused" or "concussed"?!..........perhaps confusion having been concussed?

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Atheistextremist wrote:EXC

Atheistextremist wrote:

EXC wrote:

I disagree with your premise that theists actually believe, what they do is feel.

 

Repentance, resurrection in christ, etc, they're all intense emotional experiences. Might explain why lots of kids and young teens are convinced but many grow away as their prefrontal cortex takes a more pronounced role in their thinking processes.

 

labotomy............that's the answer!!!!!!

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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I was on the verge of

I was on the verge of becoming one, then found this site and it was somewhat helpful in the change.


ssalvia
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These are all very

These are all very interesting replies! What I find helps firm up the beliefs of theists is the idea of relative truth. By placing things like science, logic and reason in this category, it is remarkably easy to explain these things away as the latest trend, rather than a solid construct to build understanding.

 


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ssalvia wrote:These are all

ssalvia wrote:

These are all very interesting replies! What I find helps firm up the beliefs of theists is the idea of relative truth. By placing things like science, logic and reason in this category, it is remarkably easy to explain these things away as the latest trend, rather than a solid construct to build understanding.

 

I truly hope "science, logic and reason" aren't just the "latest trend". If everything ain't relative there must be an absolute somewhere.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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No atheist can be converted

No atheist can be converted by a forum. 

Becoming a Christian is accomplished only through the work of the Holy Spirit.  As apologists, we can only provide the content and perhaps assist with the intellectual assent.  But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

 

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Meaning_Of_Life wrote:But

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:
But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

So, people who go to hell do so because that is God's will, and not anything they can choose or do?

Interesting.

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nigelTheBold

nigelTheBold wrote:

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:
But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

So, people who go to hell do so because that is God's will, and not anything they can choose or do?

Interesting.

Yes and no.

In Romans 8:29-30, it says that those who are saved were predestined for salvation. 

God predestines that someone, by their own volition, will come to accept Him.  He also predestines the same thing for those who reject Him.

Nowhere does it say that someone can accept God but still get rejected by Him.

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 So why didn't god

 So why didn't god predestine me for salvation? Doesn't he love me? Now I really feel rejected. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: So why

Beyond Saving wrote:

 So why didn't god predestine me for salvation? Doesn't he love me? Now I really feel rejected. 

 

Really, dude. 

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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Meaning_Of_Life

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:
But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

So, people who go to hell do so because that is God's will, and not anything they can choose or do?

Interesting.

Yes and no.

In Romans 8:29-30, it says that those who are saved were predestined for salvation. 

God predestines that someone, by their own volition, will come to accept Him.  He also predestines the same thing for those who reject Him.

Nowhere does it say that someone can accept God but still get rejected by Him.

Predestined to come by their own volition, Gracie?

"You don't have to do this if you don't want to but I'm God and I know you will do this because I know you want to"?

And if one is predestined to reject God, do they get to go to heaven also? They were following God's will.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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MoL

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:
But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

So, people who go to hell do so because that is God's will, and not anything they can choose or do?

Interesting.

Yes and no.

In Romans 8:29-30, it says that those who are saved were predestined for salvation. 

God predestines that someone, by their own volition, will come to accept Him.  He also predestines the same thing for those who reject Him.

Nowhere does it say that someone can accept God but still get rejected by Him.

 

Do you believe this in your own heart? Truly? Do you really feel this in your heart?

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:Do

Atheistextremist wrote:

Do you believe this in your own heart? Truly? Do you really feel this in your heart?

Atheistextremist, if you ever become a Christian, you'll come to realize that the human heart is a very idiosyncratic and unreliable device.  It will often mislead you. 

If we are born in separation from God, then we cannot trust our own inclinations. 

Atheistextremist, here is probably the most important thing you will learn in your lifetime:  Just because you do not like something does not make it false.  Often times, you will be angry that something is a certain way, but you'll have to deal with it because that's just how it is. 

 

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Meaning_Of_Life wrote:No

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

No atheist can be converted by a forum. 

Becoming a Christian is accomplished only through the work of the Holy Spirit.  As apologists, we can only provide the content and perhaps assist with the intellectual assent.  But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

 

Wrong.

Magical disembodied brains with no brain or cerebellum or neurons do not exist. "God" is merely your wishful thinking in wanting a super hero to save you. The ancient Egyptians were wrong for 3,000 years claiming that the sun was their magical thinking super hero, and you are no different.

Sorry to burst your bubble. God/god/deities/super natural, are all products of human imagination. Yours pet god is merely one of thousands in human history and will die with changing zeitgeists and changing times.

The claim of your god was not around 1 billion years ago, and will not be around after the extinction of our species in the future.

People make up and believe in gods because they sound nice, not because they are real.

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Meaning_Of_Life wrote: 

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

  Just because you do not like something does not make it false.  Often times, you will be angry that something is a certain way, but you'll have to deal with it because that's just how it is. 

 

Wow, what an atheist sounding statement. 

 

There is no god, just because you do not like it does not make it false. Often times, you will be angry that there is no god, but you'll have to deal with it because that's just how it is. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Meaning_Of_Life

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

nigelTheBold wrote:

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:
But beyond that, it is up to God if he wants to choose you for salvation.

So, people who go to hell do so because that is God's will, and not anything they can choose or do?

Interesting.

Yes and no.

In Romans 8:29-30, it says that those who are saved were predestined for salvation. 

God predestines that someone, by their own volition, will come to accept Him.  He also predestines the same thing for those who reject Him.

Nowhere does it say that someone can accept God but still get rejected by Him.

 

I move that all references to books written over 1000 years ago be stricken from the record. Would you believe the words of primitive human beings over somewhat technologically advanced humans today? For that matter, if we're going to be quoting old books, why are you so hell bent on choosing the bible? I'm sure there are many other amazing books written around that time and before. But you don't believe those books do you? Nuff said.


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ssalvia wrote:I move that

ssalvia wrote:

I move that all references to books written over 1000 years ago be stricken from the record. Would you believe the words of primitive human beings over somewhat technologically advanced humans today? For that matter, if we're going to be quoting old books, why are you so hell bent on choosing the bible? I'm sure there are many other amazing books written around that time and before. But you don't believe those books do you? Nuff said.

If someone asks me what Homer said, then I'm going to cite the Iliad.

Likewise, if someone asks me what Christianity says, then I'm going to cite the Bible.

 

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 My original post was

 My original post was directed at Theists, not just Christians. Quoting the bible was your choice and your choice alone. 


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Quote: I move that all

Quote:

 

I move that all references to books written over 1000 years ago be stricken from the record.

 

what an excellent principle .........900 more years and Darwin goes!

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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Right back at you, MoL.

 

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

"Atheistextremist, here is probably the most important thing you will learn in your lifetime: 

Just because you do not like something does not make it false.  Often times, you will be angry that something is a certain way, but you'll have to deal with it because that's just how it is."

 

This first grader lesson applies even more neatly to your position. And just because you, MoL, want to know the truth doesn't mean your philosophical contortions have miracously proved anything actual about exo-universal reality. You don't even have measurements for your truth. What is the truth from your perspective? What can you know about an unknowable concept?

I know you believe yours is the narrow winding path, but it's not. This is. The pursuit of the provable truth conducted in reality. If you doubt me, try it some time. Alone and with no cosmic meaning. You might not like the experience of finding there will be times you have to admit you do not know the answer.

Yes - I certainly do have anger - anger that I was told when I was too young to defend myself, that simply to be born was to be evil and deserving of agonising punishment for an assortment of feeble sins almost certainly balanced by the better side of my run-of-the-mill human nature. 

Life is challenging enough without saddling young people with a great lie, forced home by a greater threat. 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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YOU SAY:Meaning_Of_Life

YOU SAY:

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

If someone asks me what Homer said, then I'm going to cite the Iliad.

Likewise, if someone asks me what Christianity says, then I'm going to cite the Bible.

I HEAR: 

Quote:
If someone asks me what Darth Vader said I'm going to cite Star Wars.

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ssalvia wrote:are there any

ssalvia wrote:
are there any people on this forum who have been converted to athiesm from coming to this site?

Three close friends of mine lurked here for a few months, and they all converted to atheism. I didn't think it would stick, but it's been about a year and a half, and still no relapse. I guess they weren't very stubborn after all.

 


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

"Atheistextremist, here is probably the most important thing you will learn in your lifetime: 

Just because you do not like something does not make it false.  Often times, you will be angry that something is a certain way, but you'll have to deal with it because that's just how it is."

 

Quote:
This first grader lesson applies even more neatly to your position. And just because you, MoL, want to know the truth doesn't mean your philosophical contortions have miracously proved anything actual about exo-universal reality. You don't even have measurements for your truth. What is the truth from your perspective? What can you know about an unknowable concept?

AE.......you are remarkable........you deny objective knowledge and proceed to make assertions clearly intended to be taken as 'true'!

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


ssalvia
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freeminer wrote:Quote: I

freeminer wrote:

Quote:

 

I move that all references to books written over 1000 years ago be stricken from the record.

 

what an excellent principle .........900 more years and Darwin goes!

lol, I don't think we'll last another 900 years, so dont worry about it 


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ssalvia wrote:freeminer

ssalvia wrote:

freeminer wrote:

Quote:

 

I move that all references to books written over 1000 years ago be stricken from the record.

 

what an excellent principle .........900 more years and Darwin goes!

lol, I don't think we'll last another 900 years, so dont worry about it 

 

apparently Newton said God had told him 2016.

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


Meaning_Of_Life
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Atheistextremist wrote:This

Atheistextremist wrote:

This first grader lesson applies even more neatly to your position.

How so?  I've just conceded that God chooses people for salvation.  Do you actually think this is my own wishful thinking?  Do you think that I did not struggle with this just as much as anybody else?

If I had created my own God, then I would have created a God who punishes people temporarily until they learn from their mistakes.  Then everybody could get into to Heaven and we'd all live happily ever after.  I would have created a God who glorifies fornication.  I'd create a God who wasn't for capital punishment or against homosexuality. 

This was my God, but it was not the God.  I first had to accept what I'm asking you to accept.  Then I had to study the issues and if you actually do that, then it is clearly not an intellectual issue. 

In other words, your worldview is based on your wishful thinking.  You do not want God to exist because if God does not exist, then man is in charge of his own destiny and there are no problems with everyday things such as masturbation, fornication, pornography, homosexuality, abortion, etc.  This would be much easier for you.  That is why you continually deny the existence of God even though it is blatantly obvious that he does exist.

Quote:
Yes - I certainly do have anger - anger that I was told when I was too young to defend myself, that simply to be born was to be evil and deserving of agonising punishment for an assortment of feeble sins almost certainly balanced by the better side of my run-of-the-mill human nature. 

There you go.  You did not like the truth that you were evil and deserved agonizing punishment for sins that are considered "feeble" to everyday people.  You've confirmed what I've just stated.

Atheistextremist, you need to spend some time away from this discussion board and reflect long and hard about the worldview that you have.  I've already done it.  I've been an atheist and I could not continue being an atheist because it is not a reasonable position to take. 

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Meaning_Of_Life wrote:If I

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

If I had created my own God, then I would have created a God who punishes people temporarily until they learn from their mistakes.  Then everybody could get into to Heaven and we'd all live happily ever after.  I would have created a God who glorifies fornication.  I'd create a God who wasn't for capital punishment or against homosexuality. 

This was my God, but it was not the God.  I first had to accept what I'm asking you to accept.  Then I had to study the issues and if you actually do that, then it is clearly not an intellectual issue. 

Well at least you admit the god you believe in is a jerk. So I will ask you the same question I ask every theist and never get a response on. If the Christian god does exist, why would you want to spend eternity with him? Do you want to spend eternity with someone who punishes every person for the actions of their predecessors? Someone who will forgive any sin except for doubting his existence? Someone who screw around with a loyal disciple by ordering him to kill his own son and only stopping him at the last moment? (That isn't even a good April Fools joke, thats just twisted) So if I concede his existence for the sake of discussion, why would I want to go to heaven? I think I would rather burn in hell with my Grandma. And yes, I am dead serious with this question, not just messing with you.

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

That is why you continually deny the existence of God even though it is blatantly obvious that he does exist.

Based on what evidence? If it is "blatantly obvious" you should be able to show some proof other than a 2000 year old book.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Hi there, Freeminer.

freeminer wrote:

AE.......you are remarkable........you deny objective knowledge and proceed to make assertions clearly intended to be taken as 'true'!

 

Are you suggesting that because it's possible to know something it's possible to know everything? To know things that are unknowable? I certainly don't deny objective knowledge but I don't think religious doctrine offers me any of it. Instead most everything religious dogma serves up is subjective with an historical overlay imparted by context - a bit like saying mormons are right because salt lake city is an actual place.

What I am saying to MoL here is that the god being proposed cannot be known. Not only that, there is no way to know an unknowable god, no way to measure him. I know MoL is saying because I exist and can wonder, then god as prime mover must exist first, but this point remains unknowable and the proposition of the unknowable god seems to me to be self defeating. Not to say MoL's is not a high minded and difficult argument in some ways, especially for some one with a fairly rigid and unspiritual brain-set. But when no evidence becomes the necessary evidence you have to wonder where it all ends.

I s'pose I can understand MoL not wanting to argue an empirical case given these are things of the spirit but you know. What is a spirit? What are we even talking about? It's a world without definitions. As ever, discussing this stuff with the godly is like being caught in a cognitive tarpit where everything is nothing that it seems. I'd like to know for sure, from the perspective of my own brain, and this doesn't seem too much to ask from a heavenly father.

From your other posts you seem to have a fairly strong faith but don't you ever wonder why the lord is so shy? Or do you, like many other firm believers, see god everywhere in the world and his hand in your life on a daily basis?

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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'Your' God was made by you.

'Your' God was made by you. 'The' God was made by other, more primitive people. I would like to hear your opinion on why, in every single human culture throughout history, there is a different idea of creation, god/gods and everything else that goes with it. Surely, if it was blatantly obvious, as you so eloquently put it, then everyone would have worshipped 'The' God from the beginning of human history. Surely, the aztecs, with their sophisticated mathematics and knowledge of astronomy, would have figured this out right?


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Meaning_Of_Life wrote:If I

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

If I had created my own God, then I would have created a God who punishes people temporarily until they learn from their mistakes.  Then everybody could get into to Heaven and we'd all live happily ever after.  I would have created a God who glorifies fornication.  I'd create a God who wasn't for capital punishment or against homosexuality. 

This was my God, but it was not the God.  I first had to accept what I'm asking you to accept.  Then I had to study the issues and if you actually do that, then it is clearly not an intellectual issue.

Wait, are you actually admitting that you disagree with the Christian God on some issues because of your moral conscience?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I guess this the nub of the thing

 

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

In other words, your worldview is based on your wishful thinking.  You do not want God to exist because if God does not exist, then man is in charge of his own destiny and there are no problems with everyday things such as masturbation, fornication, pornography, homosexuality, abortion, etc.  This would be much easier for you.  That is why you continually deny the existence of God even though it is blatantly obvious that he does exist.

 

From MoL's perspective, that believing in invisible beings is not a cognitive decision but a moral one. It's part of the adhom at the heart of the garden of eden story and the bible as a whole that I find so profoundly insulting. You don't believe because you want to do evil - and the most evil things of all involve rooting. At least it's out there in the open now. I suppose this grab bag of acts MoL's put forward is capable of generating personal shame and regret in some cases and is a useful bit of leverage in terms of attempting to undermine the atheist's moral position but it should be seen as the adhom that it is and not as a coherent case for the existence of an unknowable god.

The lust for immorality argument also discounts the fact all we have to do to escape our fate is believe and ask for forgiveness and be saved. In any case, errors and regrets are not without serious value. It's a discussion for another time, but carrying a weight of life mistakes you cannot undo and that you cannot cheerfully unload onto the lamb of god next morning after reading another chapter of Daily Light is a painful experience and a constant reminder of how not to behave. Anyone who says life mistakes do not form the core of human wisdom knows themselves too little.

I certainly have committed some of this stuff in my life but I'm probably older than you are and I tend to reflect a more universal empathy than you appear to be showing here. I'm also less governed by things of the flesh than I was at 20. My crimes are more mundane. My aging mother annoys me. I swear in traffic. Sometimes I am too lazy to stack the dishwasher. I should have worked harder at my marriage. I do wonder why god made humans with the largest testicles of the apes and then said it was immoral to be governed by the quite predictable oversupply of testosterone he'd designed into us. And I wonder how healthy biological attraction between a man and a woman is to be called immoral. I agree it is inappropriate given we no longer live in isolated family groups but are surrounded by nubile women all day long but physical attraction to the opposite sex is what we are obviously designed to feel.

Regardless, these things you highlight are not death sentence material. Using what I am sure you would say is my god-given moral code I would never condemn anyone for this normal human behaviour and the pain most people feel for their mistakes is punishment enough in most cases. Of course this is my evil and perverted morality I am using in my assessment so it can't be trusted, can it. Perhaps human morality is a failure because it is too forgiving? Too understanding of human error? Is it possible to be too merciful?

You know, MoL, it's not blatantly obvious the bible god exists. I can see that this unknowable god who was miraculously knowable to uninformed people a few thousand years ago is vivid and real to you but not everyone has your particular sort of mind. And not everyone who gets to the place you are in manages to stay there. Finally, god's choice of who to save. If there was a god and he made people with spiritual minds like you have and people with stuck-in-reality minds like I have, he would be reflecting himself in these variations. If you are right and there is a mighty being who made everything this god would understand why atheists need more than the dubious contents of the bible. He'd understand why we are not able to accept proofs that we would argue are the products of our own minds.

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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How do you know this is true?

 

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

I've just conceded that God chooses people for salvation.  Do you actually think this is my own wishful thinking?  Do you think that I did not struggle with this just as much as anybody else?

 

Do you strongly feel it to be true? Does it simply make more sense to you than the alternatives? While we are speaking with candour about all this I confess I don't know what is true. My inability to understand the big questions seems to be substrate. I think most of us atheists here are the same. We don't know. We want to know. We want that knowledge to be comprehensible and coherent and not based on adhom and threat. It just seems - grownup - to feel this way. Why does religion treat us like 7 year olds? Is that all we are to god? Annoying, troublesome brats?

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Meaning_Of_Life

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

Atheistextremist, here is probably the most important thing you will learn in your lifetime:  Just because you do not like something does not make it false.  

 

As a curious non-believer, I have two questions for you:

1)  It's quite certain that if I am shown a full alive god making miracles etc., then I will not only start believing in god, but I will for sure know that god exists.   So, how about you?  If you are presented with an evidence that 100% proves the god's existence is totally impossible, are you ready to give up your beliefs?

 

2)  A slightly unrelated question.  I've been at several Christian forums.  They all ban people if they start asking questions regarding the authenticity of Bible, the existence of Christ, the reason behind their believes, etc.  In contrast to this, I have not seen yet on any atheists' forum that people of ANY believes are banned. Can you comment on the behavior of your fellow believers since I frankly find it really hard to understand?

 

Thanks. 

100%

 


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

I've just conceded that God chooses people for salvation.  Do you actually think this is my own wishful thinking?  Do you think that I did not struggle with this just as much as anybody else?

 

Do you strongly feel it to be true? Does it simply make more sense to you than the alternatives? While we are speaking with candour about all this I confess I don't know what is true. My inability to understand the big questions seems to be substrate. I think most of us atheists here are the same. We don't know. We want to know. We want that knowledge to be comprehensible and coherent and not based on adhom and threat. It just seems - grownup - to feel this way. Why does religion treat us like 7 year olds? Is that all we are to god? Annoying, troublesome brats?

 

You know what.  If religion is different, I would believe.  I want it without BMW-priests, without a ~2000-year-old book, all people inclusive, no discrimination, no dogma, all thoughts and questions are allowed, open discussion is encouraged.   I would be really interested to sit down together with those who believe in gods with certain names every Saturday or Sunday and discuss the world that we live in.  I have a dream that we judge each other not according to our believes but according to who we are; and I dream the world in which our believes are of lesser importance than our actions.

 


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Meaning_Of_Life wrote:In

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

In other words, your worldview is based on your wishful thinking.  You do not want God to exist because if God does not exist, then man is in charge of his own destiny and there are no problems with everyday things such as masturbation, fornication, pornography, homosexuality, abortion, etc.  This would be much easier for you.  That is why you continually deny the existence of God even though it is blatantly obvious that he does exist.

 

Why is it always about sex?

 

I'll tell you why.  Christianity thrives on guilt to infect minds and fight off alternate ideas.  Sex is a great thing to be guilty about because humans are hard wired to want it, but we can survive without it, but we can't avoid thinking about it.  Since thought crime is a offense in your religion it creates a situation where we will *always* fail 'God's test' and so feel guilty...which drives us to religion for absolution, which starts the cycle all over again.

Not that sex is the only thing.  Christianity in particular does a good job of destroying a person's sense of self worth...essentially it tries to destroy everything a person values most and then put itself in the hole it has made.  It is always telling us we are pathetic and wretched and evil and dirty and sinful...we can't save ourselves, we are weak, only God and Jesus are strong and our only hope at rising above our own debased natures is to cling to God like a life raft.

And why are we this way?  Why, we're this way because we acted according the the nature God gave us and by acting on that nature we broke the rules God created.  And the penalty for failing this impossible test is eternal torture.

If it didn't damage the minds of so many people it would be funny.

 

The deity you've created is one sick puppy.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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It's always about sex

 

Yeah up until this it was rather a fun discussion but there's always a point the godly start channeling the spirit of Billy Bob Jenkins.

Perhaps that's why Billy's hall of mirrors is so much fun. It seems like such an exaggeration until you scratch the surface. 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

 

Yeah up until this it was rather a fun discussion but there's always a point the godly start channeling the spirit of Billy Bob Jenkins.

Perhaps that's why Billy's hall of mirrors is so much fun. It seems like such an exaggeration until you scratch the surface. 

 

Yes, he isn't an exaggeration...he is a distillation.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

Becoming a Christian is accomplished only through the work of the Holy Spirit.  

The Holy Spirit is truly an ingenious invention.

It seems to mean God's essence and be equivalent to 'good' magic. 

So, missionaries can incorporate most local magical beliefs into Christianity and just say that it is the Holy Spirit.

Islam has its Djinns and other religions use the trick too.


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x wrote:Meaning_Of_Life

x wrote:

Meaning_Of_Life wrote:

Becoming a Christian is accomplished only through the work of the Holy Spirit.  

The Holy Spirit is truly an ingenious invention.

It seems to mean God's essence and be equivalent to 'good' magic. 

So, missionaries can incorporate most local magical beliefs into Christianity and just say that it is the Holy Spirit.

Islam has its Djinns and other religions use the trick too.

 

How dare you compare and analyse the Holy Spirit. 


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Atheistextremist wrote:From

Atheistextremist wrote:

From MoL's perspective, that believing in invisible beings is not a cognitive decision but a moral one. It's part of the adhom at the heart of the garden of eden story and the bible as a whole that I find so profoundly insulting. You don't believe because you want to do evil - and the most evil things of all involve rooting. At least it's out there in the open now. I suppose this grab bag of acts MoL's put forward is capable of generating personal shame and regret in some cases and is a useful bit of leverage in terms of attempting to undermine the atheist's moral position but it should be seen as the adhom that it is and not as a coherent case for the existence of an unknowable god.

What's an "adhom"?  Do you mean "Ad hominem"? 

For the record, this is not meant to be an argument for the existence of God.  It is an argument for the existence of atheism

Quote:
The lust for immorality argument also discounts the fact all we have to do to escape our fate is believe and ask for forgiveness and be saved. In any case, errors and regrets are not without serious value. It's a discussion for another time, but carrying a weight of life mistakes you cannot undo and that you cannot cheerfully unload onto the lamb of god next morning after reading another chapter of Daily Light is a painful experience and a constant reminder of how not to behave. Anyone who says life mistakes do not form the core of human wisdom knows themselves too little.

I did not discount that fact at all.  According to Christianity, salvation is by the grace of God. 

Quote:
I certainly have committed some of this stuff in my life but I'm probably older than you are and I tend to reflect a more universal empathy than you appear to be showing here. I'm also less governed by things of the flesh than I was at 20. My crimes are more mundane. My aging mother annoys me. I swear in traffic. Sometimes I am too lazy to stack the dishwasher. I should have worked harder at my marriage. I do wonder why god made humans with the largest testicles of the apes and then said it was immoral to be governed by the quite predictable oversupply of testosterone he'd designed into us. And I wonder how healthy biological attraction between a man and a woman is to be called immoral. I agree it is inappropriate given we no longer live in isolated family groups but are surrounded by nubile women all day long but physical attraction to the opposite sex is what we are obviously designed to feel.

Attraction between man and woman is not immoral.  Sex is not immoral.  The Bible never says these things.

If a husband and wife wish to have sex, then the Bible is fine with that.  You could knock the boots from dawn until dusk if you wish.

God simply tells us not to have sex with people we are not married to.  This is actually good advice, since I myself work with single mothers who live by their welfare checks due to lack of support from the deadbeat ex-boyfriends whom they met in some bar.

Quote:
Regardless, these things you highlight are not death sentence material. Using what I am sure you would say is my god-given moral code I would never condemn anyone for this normal human behaviour and the pain most people feel for their mistakes is punishment enough in most cases. Of course this is my evil and perverted morality I am using in my assessment so it can't be trusted, can it. Perhaps human morality is a failure because it is too forgiving? Too understanding of human error? Is it possible to be too merciful?

God says that it is death sentence material.  Whether I agree or disagree does not make a difference.  Nevertheless, these are God's laws and we are only accountable to God for these transgressions.  Otherwise, it is not our place to condemn others who behave a certain way.  We can only tell them about God's word, but if they want to continue behaving a certain way, then we cannot force them otherwise unless it conflicts with man's civil law, which was not created to atone for sin, but was created to atone for the finite transgressions against people.

Quote:
If you are right and there is a mighty being who made everything this god would understand why atheists need more than the dubious contents of the bible. He'd understand why we are not able to accept proofs that we would argue are the products of our own minds.

God has no obligation, morally or otherwise, to reveal himself according to your standards of evidence.  He has done enough.  He gave you a special revelation (the Bible) and a general revelation, according to which the existence of God should be obvious even to a child.  Facts are, atheists are in the minority.  Most people in this world disagree with you.  That does not conclusively prove that they are right, but there is a certain force to majority opinion, namely, that when millions of people agree on something, it is at least worth considering.  Show me a billion people who believe in Martians and I'll listen.  Seriously.

 

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