You Do Believe In God

stgemma
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You Do Believe In God

Peace~

I've scoured the Atheist Experience website and numerous YouTube videos from there and elsewhere (atheist) and I've seen a lot of good, logical arguments against the existence of God.  Somewhere in those viewings I was taken to this site.  Admittedly, I've only read a few topics here, but so far I'm just plain disappointed.  It looks more like a Christian hate-site than an attempt at good, logical, unemotional dialogue.  I'm guessing that quite a few participants here are closet-believers with a real grudge against God.  There's a lot of anger, hatred and obvious immaturity here.  

 

I consider myself Christian but I have often doubted the existence of God.  The majority of participation I've seen here (on the "atheist" side) has been hostile and childish.  In fact, possibly every response I've seen from the "atheist" side has been.  I say the "majority" in case my memory serves me wrong - but I doubt that's the case.  

 

Tell me:  Why would I want to join you in your supposed "disbelief"?  Is this what will become of me?  

 

Tell me:  What motivates you?  How will disbelieving "improve" "life" (you seem already dead)?  Do you live for this world (your earthly life)?  Do you live for yourself?  For pleasure?  To escape suffering?  Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)?  Do you work for the common good?  What reason have you to?  Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination?  

You people have never experienced God - that is obvious.  I tell you, most professing Christians have not known God either, and I sympathize with you for choosing to disbelieve based on your experience with nominal Christianity (for those of you who can admit this).  

 

I can easily refute the existence of God using logic just like anyone else can.  I'm right there, for instance, with Matt Dillahunty (sp?) of the Atheist Experience...  I can totally see his point of view.  But that is using a very base and, albeit "natural" view of God, the universe, science, etc...    It clearly takes "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the paradoxical nature of Jesus' teachings.  

Anyone who can recall childhood can easily gain insight into the many "problems" you all raise about God; suffering being a prime example.  Such statements to the affect of: "If God is so good, why does he allow miscarriages."  "Why does he allow rape" "...murder", etc......

When I was 4 I'm sure I wondered why my parents punished me when I did what I thought was a good thing.  I didn't realize if I had gone through with what I wanted that it would have hurt me in some way or prevented me from some greater good later.  You (and I at times....) act like little children who are sulking b/c you don't "get" why your "daddy" seems so "mean" sometimes. 

A tree has to endure some injury during the pruning process, but what results is a more bountiful fruitation as the damaged (pruned) areas are opened to release more branches, leaves and fruit.  If the tree had consciousness, it would not understand why it had to undergo such cruelty.  It would view the gardener as a tyrant; every so often taking his cruel weapons and inflicting such pain and damage to it.  If it knew, in advance, what a benefit the gardener's work on it would have in the near future, it would thank him; seeing him now as a great liberator or guide to its advancement.  

I'm sure life must be quite meaningless without belief.  It's all about here and now.  If so, what motivation do you have to me "moral" at all?  In that case, how do you even determine morality/ethics?  Sure, it seems quite elementary to a stagnant mind, but I assure you that the issue is quite complicated.  The 10 commandments are elementary, and yet even those are difficult to abide by at times.  Btw, Jesus raised the bar so to speak, concerning the 10 commandments.  "Whosoever looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultery...".  

Bondage?  You think the level Jesus calls us to is bondage?  I assure you that you have no idea what bondage you are already in if that's the case.  I feel very sorry for those, like many of yourselves here, who have bought into the lie of this world; that seeking pleasures and trying to escape suffering are what your temporal, earthly lives are all about.  Ever heard "it is better to give than to receive"?  I would gladly go to hell for all eternity to give my all (love) than to live comfort and ease, and I will rejoice all the while.  Shocking?  I know many of you view the "religious" as selfish.  Pity, pity, pity.  You've never met a passionate, godly person. 

Even suffering is a grace; a gift; a thing to be enjoyed.  THIS is liberation!  If you walked the streets of the impoverished, would you love the diseased and filthy you encounter?  HOW ARE YOU IMPROVING MANKIND?  Would you step out of your comfort level and embrace them and love them and help them?  Would you give your life for someone you don't know at all?  Would you forgive your enemy?  Love them?  Peace in this world will never be attained, but it certainly never would be by bloodshed.  Love would end all wars.  I think you all have never encounted real, agape, unconditional love.  Such a pity!  

When you know what holiness is; when you know God (stop reading your hatred for Him into Scripture), you will see how ungrateful and proud you have been to your Creator and Father...   When you discover how much He has loved you by giving His own, human, life for you, you will fall upon your knees in repentance.  The Almighty has lowered Himself by being born a babe in this hostile world and allowing Himself to be continually mistreated, dibelieved and persecuted.  Would you do that for someone?  This was a man born into crucifixion.  I tell you, He was crucified at the moment of His birth.  God loved us so much He wanted to share in your human misery, oppression, depression, poverty, persecution....   He lived it for 33 years and it ended with the most bitter and painful death imaginable.  Why?

He gave purpose to our humanity.  By becoming like us, we can become like Him.  God made us to become like Him.  There is a purpose to this life.  What an awesome opportunity we ALL have, to become like God!  I have experienced unconditional love.  Perhaps many of you have not, for which I'm empathetic and sorrowful.  God created mankind to be made divine, like Himself.  We are all created to be with Him; a part of Him, forever.  Like the tree that doesn't comprehend why it has to undergo a pruning, we are God's creation unaware of the purpose of our suffering.  And God is not elusive.  You have evidence for these paradoxes in nature itself.  We also live in a time where God's revelation is written and widely-distrubed throughout the world.  God reaches out to everyone - I am certain of that.  Many have not recognized Him b/c they are too enamored in themselves or are too busy with self-pity (which is pride) to notice Him.  Too entangled in (what many KNOW is) a sinful lifestyle to admit they recognize God's presence.         (cont...) 

 


stgemma
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I'm very sorry you have

I'm very sorry you have never met someone who knew God, that you've never known Him, and that you discount those who witness to Him as crackpots.  With Christ there is no suffering at all.  If only you knew the bliss and complete freedom that could be had in Christ.  It takes a lot of work to strip away the selfishness (pruning) and allow the fruit (unity with God/"Nirvana"/sanctity), but what Heaven, even on earth, it truly is! 

I will say this:  Most of Christianity has it wrong, and they are trying to impose their "morality" on unbelievers as if it could make the world better.  True transformation has to come through true, personal compuction (realiziong of sin: humility).  No one can make someone live a godly life.  There is never going to be peace for this reason.  Even if atheists had their way and converted all religious (although you only seem to target Christians here....) you could not impose your "morality" on others.  There would never be agreement.  Furthermore, even if everyone subscribed to some general, atheistic, "morality", b/c it doesn't come close to God's standards (which have our better good in consideration, but like little children, you fail to see it), it would fail.

Bear in mind, the above comes from a formerly angry, abused, addicted-in-every-way, bi-sexual, man-hating, mankind-hating, intelligent, now-mature person who has had the grace of living in God's Presence, in the here and now.  St. John Vianney (the "Cure of Ars" [France]) once said: if we could experience, for one brief moment, how much God loves us, we would die of joy!  You think and think and use all your silly logic to "see" how "impossible" it is that God exists.  It's your pride and love of sin that make you blind.  I can rationalize away the impossiblity of God's existence too, but I learned how to stop being my own God, like many of you wish to be.  But there is such a thing as Heaven on Earth if you would abandon your preconceived notions, put aside your pride, be willing to abandon your sins, and empty yourself so that God can fill you with Himself.  This is the "deny yourself" Jesus was speaking of.  The "take up your cross", b/c it is very hard at first.  We want control.  But real control - the kind that liberates you - comes from self-abandoment of your will to God's will.  Allowing the pain of pruning away at parts of ourselves that we very much wish to possess, that, once released, give way to far better things.  This is why (some, albeit few...) Christians rejoice in their afflictions.  It's how many of what you consider "sufferings" and "injustices" in this life are really graces (prunings).  People fill themselves with silly, passing pleasures which actually do more harm than good.  They kill themselves (physically, mentally AND spiritually) with their drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, and every sort of immorality.  God's ways are not grievous.  They are liberating.  What a joy to be rid of filling myself with such passing and unfulfilling garbage.  Yes, it's all good, for a short time, but in the end you do yourself some harm, and over time a lot of harm, and all the while you never accomplish what you wish: to be fulfilled.  You're happy for a moment, and the next you are empty again.  Always trying to fill yourself: with people, with substances, with material possessions, with power, with knowledge....

You will never be happy until you rid yourself of these things.  You were made for God.  We are ALL called to holiness.  My guess is, if you know people who believed and lived these things, you'd KNOW God exists.  And I don't think it is limited to Christianity.  I believe Christ's "way" is lived, to some extent, through a minority of people of other religions like Buddhism and some nature-oriented, pagan relgions, but I believe there are few that truly experience and live this.  Jesus said the way was narrow and few would find it.  Be one of the few.  You won't regret it.     

Peace~          


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stgemma
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Too long and boring?  The

Too long and boring?  The Bible is too I'm sure.  You can't shoot down what you don't put any effor or focus into.


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Here's the short

Here's the short version:

 

Many of you are believers, you just hate God b/c you love your lifestyle which is killing you and making you miserable.  You're not happy, you're angry at God and anyone who professed to believe in Him or find peace with Him b/c you have made no effort to step down from your pedestal and admit that you wish to be your own God.  Like silly little children who sulk b/c they don't understand their parent's rules and prefer their childish ways...

 

You were made to be holy - like God.  It takes humility.  Humility will give you "ears to hear" and "eyes to see".  God isn't a tyrant like you envisioned your parents in your youthfulness.  He wants you to grow up to be like Him and share in His divinity.  Like a tree that has to bear the uncomfortable pruning, our suffering and "injustices" endured in this life are for our advancement.  They are for our own downfall if we insist, in our pride, to follow our own destructive path.

 

 


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....God sends no one to

....God sends no one to condemnation in Hell.  We choose to go there.  And stop taking every word of the Bible literally.  The essence of the message is consistent:  God loves us, we are blessed when we obey Him, we are more blessed when we love Him, we punish ourselves when we don't. 


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Stop denying Vishnu and read

Stop denying Vishnu and read start reading these

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_sacred_texts

 

 

 

 

 

 


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So your view of life is that

So your view of life is that you are perpetually a child living by rules that you can't understand from a parent that you can't see, and anyone who disagrees with you is an obstinate child who doesn't want to live according to rules?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Captain, I am making an

Captain, I am making an analogy.

 

And no, everyone who disagrees with me is not necessarily an obstinate child, but in many cases I believe this is a fair analogy.  The "parent" many cannot "see" is not recognized as being like a parent , b/c, like children many only focus on the pain and confusion in a circumstance and do not recognize it as a growing experience.

 

 


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I don't deny anything with

I don't deny anything with the sweet aroma of the Divine. (in response to Vishnu....) 

 

(haven't figured out the quote thing yet)


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(testing....)

(testing....)


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You said people who doubt

You said people who doubt god because of murder (among other things) are like children who don't understand being punished. So obviously you think being murdered is a growing experience right?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote:You said people

Gauche wrote:

You said people who doubt god because of murder (among other things) are like children who don't understand being punished. So obviously you think being murdered is a growing experience right?

(Yay, I got the quote thing right this time....)

Yes, it can be.


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stgemma wrote:Tell me:  Why

stgemma wrote:

Tell me:  Why would I want to join you in your supposed "disbelief"?  Is this what will become of me?  

Dunno, dont care

stgemma wrote:

Tell me:  What motivates you?  How will disbelieving "improve" "life" (you seem already dead)?  Do you live for this world (your earthly life)?  Do you live for yourself?  For pleasure?  To escape suffering?  Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)?  Do you work for the common good?  What reason have you to?  Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination?  

 

What motivates you; Myself

How will disbelieving "improve" "life" ; Irrelevant

(you seem already dead)  ; Why thank you!

Do you live for this world (your earthly life) ; This world? nay... i live for battle!

For pleasure? ; Nay! Pleasure is for those filthy, honorless Slaanesh worshippers... not fit for a follower of Khorne!

To escape suffering? Suffering is of Slaanesh as well, of which i am vehemently opposed.

Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)? ; Compassion is for the weak... and the weak must die!

Do you work for the common good? ; Blood for the Blood God!

What reason have you to?  ; Skull for the Skull Throne!

Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination? ; Chemical and Psychological

 

stgemma wrote:

You people have never experienced God - that is obvious. 

Lies! i expecience the glory of Khorne, every time i spill blood in his name... every time i slaughter the weak... every time i *insert violent thingy here*

 

stgemma wrote:

It clearly takes "eyes to see" and "ears to hear".  

No it doesnt, and no it doesnt...

 

stgemma wrote:

Anyone who can recall childhood can easily gain insight into the many "problems" you all raise about God; suffering being a prime example.  Such statements to the affect of: "If God is so good, why does he allow miscarriages."  "Why does he allow rape" "...murder", etc......

Actually, mine was more akin to... 1. Why is "God" such a bad strategist? and 2. Why do unborn babies on unbelievers go to Hell?

stgemma wrote:

A tree has to endure some injury during the pruning process, but what results is a more bountiful fruitation as the damaged (pruned) areas are opened to release more branches, leaves and fruit.

Assuming humans equate to a plant that flourishes when pruned, others tend to do better when not pruned, and other tend to die out-right >.>

stgemma wrote:

Bondage?  You think the level Jesus calls us to is bondage?  I assure you that you have no idea what bondage you are already in if that's the case. 

Is this another bad metaphor? or we gonna start something X-rated?

stgemma wrote:

If you walked the streets of the impoverished, would you love the diseased and filthy you encounter? 

Nay! for they are followers of Nurgle...

stgemma wrote:

HOW ARE YOU IMPROVING MANKIND?

 

... eugenics >.>

stgemma wrote:
Would you step out of your comfort level and embrace them and love them and help them? 
  o_O Help followers of Nurgle? ARE YOU MAD?!

stgemma wrote:
Would you give your life for someone you don't know at all?
 Circumstances depending, 90% degree accuracy, No.

stgemma wrote:
Would you forgive your enemy?  Love them? 
 If you only knew what it took to actually become an real "enemy" of Doomy... answer is No

stgemma wrote:
Peace in this world will never be attained, but it certainly never would be by bloodshed.  Love would end all wars.
 

Damn hippy beetnick!

 

 

Stop fucking preaching and go back to Liberty college

What Would Kharn Do?


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Welcome to the forum.stgemma

Welcome to the forum.

stgemma wrote:

Too long and boring?  The Bible is too I'm sure.  You can't shoot down what you don't put any effor or focus into.

I've read most of the Bible.

Quote:
It looks more like a Christian hate-site than an attempt at good, logical, unemotional dialogue.  I'm guessing that quite a few participants here are closet-believers with a real grudge against God.  There's a lot of anger, hatred and obvious immaturity here.

Examples? 

Quote:
What motivates you?

Friends. Family. Peking Duck.

Quote:
How will disbelieving "improve" "life" (you seem already dead)?

I'm not an atheist because I think it will improve my life. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. It's not that complicated.

Quote:
Do you live for this world (your earthly life)?  Do you live for yourself?  For pleasure?  To escape suffering? Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)?  Do you work for the common good?

Sure.

Quote:
What reason have you to?

I want to.

Quote:
Is love real or is it a chemical reaction;

How do you define love? What makes it real?

Quote:
I sympathize with you for choosing to disbelieve based on your experience with nominal Christianity (for those of you who can admit this).
 

How do you know this?

Quote:
I can easily refute the existence of God using logic just like anyone else can.

Then why do you believe in God?

Quote:
I'm sure life must be quite meaningless without belief.

Was it meaningless when you were an atheist?

Quote:
It's all about here and now.  If so, what motivation do you have to me "moral" at all?
 

What motivation do you have to be moral?

Quote:
Even suffering is a grace; a gift; a thing to be enjoyed.

War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.

Quote:
Many of you are believers, you just hate God b/c you love your lifestyle which is killing you and making you miserable. You're not happy, you're angry at God and anyone who professed to believe in Him or find peace with Him b/c you have made no effort to step down from your pedestal and admit that you wish to be your own God.  Like silly little children who sulk b/c they don't understand their parent's rules and prefer their childish ways...

Broad, sweeping assumptions, condescending, arrogant...

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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stgemma wrote:Gauche

stgemma wrote:

Gauche wrote:

You said people who doubt god because of murder (among other things) are like children who don't understand being punished. So obviously you think being murdered is a growing experience right?

(Yay, I got the quote thing right this time....)

Yes, it can be.

I have learned a lot about love while contemplating Christ crucified upon the cross His murderers nailed Him upon. 


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Even if there's something to

Even if there's something to be learned from being murdered, it's not something that can be called upon and applied later in life so how is that a growing experience?  That's kind of an odd analogy. God, the parent has you, the child murdered as punishment so that you can learn a lesson that you can't quite understand or use because you're dead. 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Eh, Modgods, bump this whole

Eh, Modgods, bump this whole sh'bang up to AvT forums since everything about it, and subsequently every poster after it, is breaking Kindness forum rules

 

edit; Wait... a minute... whats going on here... since when do i care ?!

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butterbattle wrote:Welcome

butterbattle wrote:

Welcome to the forum.

stgemma wrote:
Thank you.
Quote:
Examples?
The home page of this forum clearly targets Christianity.  The first few threads I read had at least one signature insulting Christianity - in one particular case, the baby Jesus (it was an older thread, but it was allowed to be posted, indicating that insulting others' faith is permissible here - making it hard to believe there is a positive reason for the existance of this forum except that ironically, people are being converted to the truth about God through the hatred here)

Quote:
How do you define love? What makes it real?
Sacrifice. 

Quote:
How do you know this?
Personal experience.  Nominal Christianity doesn't follow Christ.  It's all talk and no walk.

Quote:
Then why do you believe in God? 
B/c everything is not always as it seems.  Even science does not have all of the answers.  Many people put their faith in science, but science has many unproven theories and many unanswered questions.  There was a time when man could not conceive of the vastness of the universe; a time even when man couldn't fathom a round earth, an orbiting moon...   It's quite silly to believe that we have most of the answers now or that we have everything right. 

Quote:
Was it meaningless when you were an atheist?
It was quite tumultuous; a life lived in fear; constantly seeking justice and fleeing injustice...  What use is life for the severely disabled?  The elderly?  The hopelessly oppressed?  This is the reality of life on this earth, and although I've lived quite comfortably, it's a reality any of us can be faced with. 

Quote:
What motivation do you have to be moral?
Love for God.  It raises the moral standard.  It enables one to love unconditionally.  Knowing I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the good of His Body (the Church) is intensely motivating.  It means I participate in Christ's salvatory work, making every thought, word and deed eternally significant. 

Quote:
Broad, sweeping assumptions, condescending, arrogant...

 

Perhaps, but based on what I had come across on the forum at that point it was fitting. 

 I obviously still need to work on this quote thingy...


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My post wasn't breaking the

My post wasn't breaking the kindness rules.


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Gauche wrote:Even if there's

Gauche wrote:

Even if there's something to be learned from being murdered, it's not something that can be called upon and applied later in life so how is that a growing experience?  That's kind of an odd analogy. God, the parent has you, the child murdered as punishment so that you can learn a lesson that you can't quite understand or use because you're dead. 

You're talking about the one murdered.  Is being murdered a bad thing?  I am edified when I read about the murders of the 16th century Anabaptists and how they persevered in their faith despite cruel torture and murder.  

 

We're all going to die someday.  If being murdered will be for someone's benefit, I don't object to going that way.   


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

stgemma wrote:

Tell me:  Why would I want to join you in your supposed "disbelief"?  Is this what will become of me?  

Dunno, dont care

stgemma wrote:

Tell me:  What motivates you?  How will disbelieving "improve" "life" (you seem already dead)?  Do you live for this world (your earthly life)?  Do you live for yourself?  For pleasure?  To escape suffering?  Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)?  Do you work for the common good?  What reason have you to?  Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination?  

 

What motivates you; Myself

How will disbelieving "improve" "life" ; Irrelevant

(you seem already dead)  ; Why thank you!

Do you live for this world (your earthly life) ; This world? nay... i live for battle!

For pleasure? ; Nay! Pleasure is for those filthy, honorless Slaanesh worshippers... not fit for a follower of Khorne!

To escape suffering? Suffering is of Slaanesh as well, of which i am vehemently opposed.

Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)? ; Compassion is for the weak... and the weak must die!

Do you work for the common good? ; Blood for the Blood God!

What reason have you to?  ; Skull for the Skull Throne!

Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination? ; Chemical and Psychological

 

stgemma wrote:

You people have never experienced God - that is obvious. 

Lies! i expecience the glory of Khorne, every time i spill blood in his name... every time i slaughter the weak... every time i *insert violent thingy here*

 

stgemma wrote:

It clearly takes "eyes to see" and "ears to hear".  

No it doesnt, and no it doesnt...

 

stgemma wrote:

Anyone who can recall childhood can easily gain insight into the many "problems" you all raise about God; suffering being a prime example.  Such statements to the affect of: "If God is so good, why does he allow miscarriages."  "Why does he allow rape" "...murder", etc......

Actually, mine was more akin to... 1. Why is "God" such a bad strategist? and 2. Why do unborn babies on unbelievers go to Hell?

stgemma wrote:

A tree has to endure some injury during the pruning process, but what results is a more bountiful fruitation as the damaged (pruned) areas are opened to release more branches, leaves and fruit.

Assuming humans equate to a plant that flourishes when pruned, others tend to do better when not pruned, and other tend to die out-right >.>

stgemma wrote:

Bondage?  You think the level Jesus calls us to is bondage?  I assure you that you have no idea what bondage you are already in if that's the case. 

Is this another bad metaphor? or we gonna start something X-rated?

stgemma wrote:

If you walked the streets of the impoverished, would you love the diseased and filthy you encounter? 

Nay! for they are followers of Nurgle...

stgemma wrote:

HOW ARE YOU IMPROVING MANKIND?

 

... eugenics >.>

stgemma wrote:
Would you step out of your comfort level and embrace them and love them and help them? 
  o_O Help followers of Nurgle? ARE YOU MAD?!

stgemma wrote:
Would you give your life for someone you don't know at all?
 Circumstances depending, 90% degree accuracy, No.

stgemma wrote:
Would you forgive your enemy?  Love them? 
 If you only knew what it took to actually become an real "enemy" of Doomy... answer is No

stgemma wrote:
Peace in this world will never be attained, but it certainly never would be by bloodshed.  Love would end all wars.
 

Damn hippy beetnick!

 

 

Stop fucking preaching and go back to Liberty college

Who is breaking forum rules?

 


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stgemma wrote:Who is

stgemma wrote:

Who is breaking forum rules?

 

Glad to see you got the quote working... now for proper usage! ;-p

 

(only 1 sentence in my shpeel broke rules oddly enough... im so dissappointed...  )

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stgemma wrote:You're talking

stgemma wrote:

You're talking about the one murdered.  Is being murdered a bad thing?  I am edified when I read about the murders of the 16th century Anabaptists and how they persevered in their faith despite cruel torture and murder.  

 

We're all going to die someday.  If being murdered will be for someone's benefit, I don't object to going that way.   

Oh, I see. It's a growing experience for the people who are able to avoid your god's murderous streak, not the people who are actually victims of it. That makes more sense. Then why would god bother allowing people to be murdered in secret if people need to be aware of it for a growing experience?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Gauche wrote:stgemma

Gauche wrote:

stgemma wrote:

You're talking about the one murdered.  Is being murdered a bad thing?  I am edified when I read about the murders of the 16th century Anabaptists and how they persevered in their faith despite cruel torture and murder.  

 

We're all going to die someday.  If being murdered will be for someone's benefit, I don't object to going that way.   

Oh, I see. It's a growing experience for the people who are able to avoid your god's murderous streak, not the people who are actually victims of it. That makes more sense. Then why would god bother allowing people to be murdered in secret if people need to be aware of it for a growing experience?

Hmmm....  Do you know of anyone murdered in secret?  (Of course not, then it wouldn't be secret.......)  Points to ponder:  Do you think the murderer isn't aware that he has murdered?  No murder is secret.   Does the fact that no one you consider important knows about this murder mean it is secret?    And no, murder is not a good thing, and not necessarily always going to result in something good, but this in no way disproves God's existence.  Maybe God has prevented a greater evil to befall the person murdered?  Maybe the murderer is going to feel remorse and admit his guilt and live his life making ammends?  Regardless, we are all going to die anyway.  You seem to think the way someone dies may disprove God's existence?


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stgemma wrote:...Peace ...I

stgemma wrote:
...Peace ...I consider myself Christian but I have often doubted the existence of God....

Bloody fucking hell. Do you ever shut up at home!

You appear to be wavering between Agnosticism and Christianity.

Hostility here towards Theists? Nah. (I'm
kidding).

Infintile stuff... No more than your post actually was.

Personally, I don't care what you join. I'm definitely not one of this hive, as anyone here can tell you.

I've no need for your gods, your religion, your need to belong to any community, and
find that infintile garbage and blogs deserve the same in return, except that I prefer to leave out the blogging in response.


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stgemma wrote:Do you know of

stgemma wrote:

Do you know of anyone murdered in secret? 

Technically... yes o_O

stgemma wrote:

(Of course not, then it wouldn't be secret.......) 

 

Engrish langauge previals once more!

stgemma wrote:

Points to ponder:  Do you think the murderer isn't aware that he has murdered?

circumstance... generally correct

stgemma wrote:

No murder is secret.   

False

 

stgemma wrote:

And no, murder is not a good thing,

Can be

 

stgemma wrote:
Maybe God has prevented a greater evil to befall the person murdered? 
Wouldnt that screw up the divine plan?

stgemma wrote:
You seem to think the way someone dies may disprove God's existence?
It very well could, at least disprove some of his existence.

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Oh no, I didn't break any

Oh no, I didn't break any rules, did I? I just use 'recent posts,' so I always forget to check.

butterbattle wrote:
Broad, sweeping assumptions, condescending, arrogant...

Almost...maybe...

stgemma wrote:
The home page of this forum clearly targets Christianity.  The first few threads I read had at least one signature insulting Christianity - in one particular case, the baby Jesus (it was an older thread, but it was allowed to be posted, indicating that insulting others' faith is permissible here - making it hard to believe there is a positive reason for the existance of this forum except that ironically, people are being converted to the truth about God through the hatred here)

I actually agree with you on a lot of this. I think some of the material is rather over-the-top, like "Believe in God? We can fix that." or "THEIST POSTS WILL BE DESTROYED." 

Perhaps it's just my personal preference, but I would like it if some of the more provocative descriptions etc. were changed. We should promote an environment where people talk openly about their beliefs, and I think some of the stuff on the site might be detrimental to this cause. I can't count the number of times theists have come in here and posted, "OMG, atheists won't let me post there! Censorship!"   

stgemma wrote:
Is love real or is it a chemical reaction;

butterbattle wrote:
How do you define love? What makes it real?

stgemma wrote:
Sacrifice.

If I sacrifice something for someone, then I love that person? 

stgemma wrote:
I sympathize with you for choosing to disbelieve based on your experience with nominal Christianity (for those of you who can admit this).

butterbattle wrote:
How do you know this?

stgemma wrote:
Personal experience.  Nominal Christianity doesn't follow Christ.  It's all talk and no walk.

What makes a person a true Christian?

stgemma wrote:
Then why do you believe in God? 

butterbattle wrote:
B/c everything is not always as it seems.

So......even though it seems like there's no God.....there is? How do you know that?

stgemma wrote:
Even science does not have all of the answers.

True, but irrelevant.

stgemma wrote:
Many people put their faith in science, but science has many unproven theories and many unanswered questions.  There was a time when man could not conceive of the vastness of the universe; a time even when man couldn't fathom a round earth, an orbiting moon...   It's quite silly to believe that we have most of the answers now or that we have everything right.
 

Aren't you trying to tell us that you have everything right?

stgemma wrote:
It was quite tumultuous; a life lived in fear; constantly seeking justice and fleeing injustice...  What use is life for the severely disabled?  The elderly?  The hopelessly oppressed?  This is the reality of life on this earth, and although I've lived quite comfortably, it's a reality any of us can be faced with.

You do the best you can with what you have.

butterbattle wrote:
What motivation do you have to be moral?

stgemma wrote:
Love for God.  It raises the moral standard.

How?

stgemma wrote:
It enables one to love unconditionally.

How?

stgemma wrote:
Knowing I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the good of His Body (the Church) is intensely motivating.

Is the joy of helping others not enough motivation, in and of itself?

stgemma wrote:
It means I participate in Christ's salvatory work, making every thought, word and deed eternally significant.

Ah, eternal significance.

Hypothetically, if atheism offered more moral support, as in, it provided stronger motivation to help others than Christianity, would you consider becoming an atheist? 

stgemma wrote:
Perhaps, but based on what I had come across on the forum at that point it was fitting. 

Hahahahahaha. 

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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stgemma wrote:Hmmm....  Do

stgemma wrote:

Hmmm....  Do you know of anyone murdered in secret?  (Of course not, then it wouldn't be secret.......)  Points to ponder:  Do you think the murderer isn't aware that he has murdered?  No murder is secret.   Does the fact that no one you consider important knows about this murder mean it is secret?    And no, murder is not a good thing, and not necessarily always going to result in something good, but this in no way disproves God's existence.  Maybe God has prevented a greater evil to befall the person murdered?  Maybe the murderer is going to feel remorse and admit his guilt and live his life making ammends?  Regardless, we are all going to die anyway.  You seem to think the way someone dies may disprove God's existence?

I saw a documentary about a serial killer in the US that claims to have killed more than 40 people. They can only confirm that he killed 13 people because they can't find the other bodies. It's a secret to everyone except the murderer.

So are you saying that god allowed 40 people to be killed so that one person could have a growing experience? What valuable lesson can a person learn from killing 40 people that they can't learn from killing 39 people or 2 people?

I wasn't suggesting that murder proves that there's no god. I'm just trying to understand your rationale here. God allows bad things to happen so that people can learn from them is the gist of it right? So my question is why are there extraneous bad things?   So if a person is walking through the forest and they're torn to shreds by wild animals, and nobody ever finds a trace of them. The only thing anyone else knows is that the person is missing. So, what growing experience do people gain from that situation, that they wouldn't have had if the person died in a less horrific manner and never been found?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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stgemma wrote:Gauche

stgemma wrote:

Gauche wrote:

You said people who doubt god because of murder (among other things) are like children who don't understand being punished. So obviously you think being murdered is a growing experience right?

(Yay, I got the quote thing right this time....)

Yes, it can be.

What about little girls in Islamic countries that get stoned for being raped?   

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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  I have the normal human

  I have the normal human needs. The need for a sense of inner peace, a sense of contentment, a sense of meaning.  A sense of balance in a world that can quickly crush you to your knees.

  Those needs already existed in me before I became a fundamentalist Christian at age 15.  All during my Christian experience these needs remained unmet and I remained unfulfilled.  I gave Jesus every chance in the world to indicate his way was the way of inner contenment and that even in the face of adversity that I could experience "the peace that passeth all understanding" yada yada...

   I was a devoted Christian and and I talked the talk and walked the walk.  I prayed every morning and every night and read my Bible before I allowed myself to go sleep. My personal habits were pious and I pursued righteousness as much as I knew how to do so.  I even avoided looking at attractive women to avoid experiencing "lust". I was not a Christian poser in any sense of the word.   I was scrupulous in my conversation and avoided the use of profanity.  ( funny, I have been shocked at how many Christian theists come onto this board and have no problem with dropping the  "F" bomb.  What Would Jesus Fucking Do ?  )

   There was no relief to be found.  If Jesus existed he apparently had no interest in helping me.  I guess I wasn't devoted enough to merit his attention or perhaps he just enjoyed watching my faith crumble into dust.  ( There are also many academic issues with the Bible, both moral and historical that eventually provided the death blow to my faith. ) As a last attempt to hang onto my beliefs I even went to my pastor with my questions but his answers were just fumbling responses that were only meant to placate me.

   I'm an atheist now, but if my relationship with Jesus was a true and satisfying thing I would still be a devoted Christian.  All I wanted was the strength to endure under the painful burdens of my existence, to not constantly falter and stumble. To experience meaning in the midst of suffering. 

   I am not content to be his plaything or indulge him in his sadistic fascination with personal suffering. If Jesus was going to help me then he waited too late.  Game over.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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That was a beautiful post,

That was a beautiful post, Prozac.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

My personal habits were pious and I pursued righteousness as much as I knew how to do so.

And we can still be righteous. We can still aid those who suffer, be kind to strangers, and respect this world. If your God, in spite of those things, would judge me for the simple reason that I have neither good reason nor will to even conceive that he exists, then so be it.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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butterbattle wrote:stgemma

butterbattle wrote:

stgemma wrote:

I can easily refute the existence of God using logic just like anyone else can.

Then why do you believe in God?

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The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
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stgemma wrote:Peace~I've

stgemma wrote:

Peace~

I've scoured the Atheist Experience website and numerous YouTube videos from there and elsewhere (atheist) and I've seen a lot of good, logical arguments against the existence of God.  Somewhere in those viewings I was taken to this site.  Admittedly, I've only read a few topics here, but so far I'm just plain disappointed.  It looks more like a Christian hate-site than an attempt at good, logical, unemotional dialogue.  I'm guessing that quite a few participants here are closet-believers with a real grudge against God.  There's a lot of anger, hatred and obvious immaturity here.  

I don't agree that this site is a Christian hate site it's an equal opportunity site of debate against believers of any faith. Christians are the primary theists that visit so the largest portion of the topics and discussion will be regarding Christianity. 

I have no hate for Christians or a god that doesn't exist. I may dislike the things believers do to try to propagate their beliefs on others but that's as far as it goes.

stgemma wrote:
 

I consider myself Christian but I have often doubted the existence of God.  The majority of participation I've seen here (on the "atheist" side) has been hostile and childish.  In fact, possibly every response I've seen from the "atheist" side has been.  I say the "majority" in case my memory serves me wrong - but I doubt that's the case.  

This is like a report from an explorer that dropped in an area and finds only desert and sand and didn't spend enough time in exploring before they went home to make a report and totally missed out on what was over the next hill. You need to spend a lot more time before you can make such statements.

stgemma wrote:
 

Tell me:  Why would I want to join you in your supposed "disbelief"?  Is this what will become of me?  

Well you could sleep in on Sundays.

In reality it would allow you to take charge of your own life and really begin to understand. You see only what you wish to see and reality is completely hidden from you because you attribute everything to a god.

 

stgemma wrote:

Tell me:  What motivates you?  How will disbelieving "improve" "life" (you seem already dead)?  Do you live for this world (your earthly life)?  Do you live for yourself?  For pleasure?  To escape suffering?  Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)?  Do you work for the common good?  What reason have you to?  Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination?  

Each day I get up and know that I will learn something I did not know the day before. 

Everybody lives for themselves and denial or attributing it to a god changes nothing.

Compassion and kindness are not limited to Christians at all and neither is cruelty or indifference.

stgemma wrote:

You people have never experienced God - that is obvious.  I tell you, most professing Christians have not known God either, and I sympathize with you for choosing to disbelieve based on your experience with nominal Christianity (for those of you who can admit this).  

You don't know me to quote Roxy the Grim Reaper. 

As with others I was raised a Christian and went to parochial schools including a Jesuit Grad school. I believed for years but no longer do.

stgemma wrote:
 

I can easily refute the existence of God using logic just like anyone else can.  I'm right there, for instance, with Matt Dillahunty (sp?) of the Atheist Experience...  I can totally see his point of view.  But that is using a very base and, albeit "natural" view of God, the universe, science, etc...    It clearly takes "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the paradoxical nature of Jesus' teachings.  

There is more to understand than just the hearsay writings of the Gospels in grasping that there is likely no gods at all.

stgemma wrote:

Anyone who can recall childhood can easily gain insight into the many "problems" you all raise about God; suffering being a prime example.  Such statements to the affect of: "If God is so good, why does he allow miscarriages."  "Why does he allow rape" "...murder", etc......

When I was 4 I'm sure I wondered why my parents punished me when I did what I thought was a good thing.  I didn't realize if I had gone through with what I wanted that it would have hurt me in some way or prevented me from some greater good later.  You (and I at times....) act like little children who are sulking b/c you don't "get" why your "daddy" seems so "mean" sometimes. 

A tree has to endure some injury during the pruning process, but what results is a more bountiful fruitation as the damaged (pruned) areas are opened to release more branches, leaves and fruit.  If the tree had consciousness, it would not understand why it had to undergo such cruelty.  It would view the gardener as a tyrant; every so often taking his cruel weapons and inflicting such pain and damage to it.  If it knew, in advance, what a benefit the gardener's work on it would have in the near future, it would thank him; seeing him now as a great liberator or guide to its advancement.  

There is more than this simplistic summary that discredits the likelihood of a god existing. I suggest you consider why you don't believe in Zeus, Ra, or Enki. Yahweh is not really much different than the jealous and petty gods of the ancients and is likely to be an outgrowth of Ugaritic mythology.

stgemma wrote:

I'm sure life must be quite meaningless without belief.  It's all about here and now.  If so, what motivation do you have to me "moral" at all?  In that case, how do you even determine morality/ethics?  Sure, it seems quite elementary to a stagnant mind, but I assure you that the issue is quite complicated.  The 10 commandments are elementary, and yet even those are difficult to abide by at times.  Btw, Jesus raised the bar so to speak, concerning the 10 commandments.  "Whosoever looks at a woman with lust in his heart has already commited adultery...".  

Please don't assume and try using the search on this site to note that these subjects are explained.

I pretty much agree with George Carlin, don't do harm to others period unless you have no choice. One commandment.

stgemma wrote:

Bondage?  You think the level Jesus calls us to is bondage?  I assure you that you have no idea what bondage you are already in if that's the case.  I feel very sorry for those, like many of yourselves here, who have bought into the lie of this world; that seeking pleasures and trying to escape suffering are what your temporal, earthly lives are all about.  Ever heard "it is better to give than to receive"?  I would gladly go to hell for all eternity to give my all (love) than to live comfort and ease, and I will rejoice all the while.  Shocking?  I know many of you view the "religious" as selfish.  Pity, pity, pity.  You've never met a passionate, godly person.

The less than wonderful afterlife described in Revelation for believers seems to indicate a dictatorship imposed by a king though I understand how believers justify it as why wouldn't you want to praise god for all he has done. It's still imposed as a tyrant would do.

stgemma wrote:

Even suffering is a grace; a gift; a thing to be enjoyed.  THIS is liberation!  If you walked the streets of the impoverished, would you love the diseased and filthy you encounter?  HOW ARE YOU IMPROVING MANKIND?  Would you step out of your comfort level and embrace them and love them and help them?  Would you give your life for someone you don't know at all?  Would you forgive your enemy?  Love them?  Peace in this world will never be attained, but it certainly never would be by bloodshed.  Love would end all wars.  I think you all have never encounted real, agape, unconditional love.  Such a pity!  

Suffering is so not a thing of grace but is a terrible experience for any and all that get to experience it.

Again, you don't know me or anyone here to make a claim that we don't make important contributions to help others.

stgemma wrote:

When you know what holiness is; when you know God (stop reading your hatred for Him into Scripture), you will see how ungrateful and proud you have been to your Creator and Father...   When you discover how much He has loved you by giving His own, human, life for you, you will fall upon your knees in repentance.  The Almighty has lowered Himself by being born a babe in this hostile world and allowing Himself to be continually mistreated, dibelieved and persecuted.  Would you do that for someone?  This was a man born into crucifixion.  I tell you, He was crucified at the moment of His birth.  God loved us so much He wanted to share in your human misery, oppression, depression, poverty, persecution....   He lived it for 33 years and it ended with the most bitter and painful death imaginable.  Why?

How can one hate what is not real?

stgemma wrote:

He gave purpose to our humanity.  By becoming like us, we can become like Him.  God made us to become like Him.  There is a purpose to this life.  What an awesome opportunity we ALL have, to become like God!  I have experienced unconditional love.  Perhaps many of you have not, for which I'm empathetic and sorrowful.  God created mankind to be made divine, like Himself.  We are all created to be with Him; a part of Him, forever.  Like the tree that doesn't comprehend why it has to undergo a pruning, we are God's creation unaware of the purpose of our suffering.  And God is not elusive.  You have evidence for these paradoxes in nature itself.  We also live in a time where God's revelation is written and widely-distrubed throughout the world.  God reaches out to everyone - I am certain of that.  Many have not recognized Him b/c they are too enamored in themselves or are too busy with self-pity (which is pride) to notice Him.  Too entangled in (what many KNOW is) a sinful lifestyle to admit they recognize God's presence.         (cont...) 

 

It's pretty hard to make these claims that we are unaware of the claimed existence of a god, one can't go even 5 minutes in the US without having it put in one's face. Repetition and assertions does not make fantasy real. 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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stgemma wrote:Admittedly,

stgemma wrote:

Admittedly, I've only read a few topics here, but so far I'm just plain disappointed.  It looks more like a Christian hate-site than an attempt at good, logical, unemotional dialogue.  I'm guessing that quite a few participants here are closet-believers with a real grudge against God.  There's a lot of anger, hatred and obvious immaturity here.  

You admit to reading only a few posts but yet all of us are drones of each other? Talk about immature, I can stop by Wal Mart and pick up a mirror for you.

This is no more a "hate site" than George Micheal is heterosexual.

Christianity may be what  posters here run into the most being that the site is based in a country with a Christian majority, but make no mistake about it, this website's posters address all sorts of absurd claims, from pantheism to Scientology, to faith healing, to Ouiji boards .......ect ect ect.

I'd suggest you lose the stupid stereotype and treat each poster here as an individual, just like you would want to be treated as an individual.

 

 

 

 

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treat2 wrote:stgemma

treat2 wrote:
stgemma wrote:
...Peace ...I consider myself Christian but I have often doubted the existence of God....
Bloody fucking hell. Do you ever shut up at home! You appear to be wavering between Agnosticism and Christianity. Hostility here towards Theists? Nah. (I'm kidding). Infintile stuff... No more than your post actually was. Personally, I don't care what you join. I'm definitely not one of this hive, as anyone here can tell you. I've no need for your gods, your religion, your need to belong to any community, and find that infintile garbage and blogs deserve the same in return, except that I prefer to leave out the blogging in response.
There are multiple levels of dishonesty in this post.  First of all, what is your purpose of contributing to this site?  "We can fix that" is part of your slogan, yes, YOUR slogan. Says it right at the top of the page of your community (one of them which you say you don't need to belong to); the "Church of the Rational Response Squad".  So you do care what I've "joined" (I'm touched).  If you found my post infantile then your replying to it is quite baffling unless you have some usefulness in having done so. 

Me thinks I've struck a nerve. 

 

Don't go away, you're not far behind. 


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

stgemma wrote:

Do you know of anyone murdered in secret? 

Technically... yes o_O

stgemma wrote:

(Of course not, then it wouldn't be secret.......) 

 

Engrish langauge previals once more!

stgemma wrote:

Points to ponder:  Do you think the murderer isn't aware that he has murdered?

circumstance... generally correct

stgemma wrote:

No murder is secret.   

False

 

stgemma wrote:

And no, murder is not a good thing,

Can be

 

stgemma wrote:
Maybe God has prevented a greater evil to befall the person murdered? 
Wouldnt that screw up the divine plan?

stgemma wrote:
You seem to think the way someone dies may disprove God's existence?
It very well could, at least disprove some of his existence.

Soul,

My Engrish is at least as good as yours. 

 

Except in cases of certain mental illness, a murderer is quite aware of his act (whether or not he considers it wrong, which, in this case of "murder in secret" the murderer is obviously aware or he wouldn't trouble himself to do it in secret).  I'm sure you realize this and see the veracity of my original point which you are attempting to evade. 

How would God preventing a greater evil to befall a person be screwing up His divine plan?  God can use adversity in his plan and this does not mean He always has to.  Another point evaded.

The way someone dies disproves "some of his existence"?  And you are my Engrish teacher? 

No, it doesn't disprove anything.  The supposed "immorality of God" is a dishonest and weak excuse.  Everyone knows that things are not always as they seem.  Even science does not have a perfect understanding of all things.  Look at mankind's history in misunderstanding the universe.  Have we discovered everything yet?  Only an ignoramous would say 'yes'.  My parent-child analogy is a good one.

 


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butterbattle wrote:I

butterbattle wrote:
I actually agree with you on a lot of this. I think some of the material is rather over-the-top, like "Believe in God? We can fix that." or "THEIST POSTS WILL BE DESTROYED." 
It was actually one of your posts on another thread that I first ran into after having submitted my o.p.  It was nice to find a rational person who can engage in conversation about God w/out emotionally lashing out against the "theist".

stgemma wrote:
Is love real or is it a chemical reaction;

butterbattle wrote:
How do you define love? What makes it real?

stgemma wrote:
Sacrifice.
Quote:

If I sacrifice something for someone, then I love that person? 

Not necessarily.  But I believe love is best expressed ("made real) through sacrifice.  I can tell my children I love them all day long but if I never lift a finger to meet their needs I've proven my love is only in word.  Love is a choice, not a warm, fuzzy feeling. 

butterbattle wrote:
What makes a person a true Christian?

Simple.  Someone who actually follows Christ - does what He commands - not just on Sunday morning, not for personal gain, and not just for others to see.  

butterbattle wrote:
So......even though it seems like there's no God.....there is? How do you know that?
No, that's not what I meant.  I did not mean to say that I know God exists b/c everything is not as it seems.  I'm simply saying that I cannot logically dismiss the possibility of His existence based on my imperfect evaluation of the universe.   

Quote:
Aren't you trying to tell us that you have everything right?
I'm trying to get everything right, by the grace of God.  "Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect". 
Quote:
  You do the best you can with what you have.
What if you don't seem to "have" anything?  What about the "disadvantaged"?  What should a godless society do with them?  What agreement would you all come to concerning them?  Some would insist we take care of them.  Others would say euthanize them; put them out of their misery.  Others: euthanize them (or eliminate them some other way) as they are detrimental to evolutionary progress.

 

butterbattle wrote:
What motivation do you have to be moral?

stgemma wrote:
Love for God.  It raises the moral standard.
Quote:

How?

I should have said, love for God motivates and empowers me to stive to live by His higher moral standard (higher than my godless standards were, and higher than society's standards).  How? I should also have said knowing God.  Learning about God's holiness, perfection, goodness, and discovering my call to be like Him.

stgemma wrote:
It enables one to love unconditionally.
Quote:

How?

I give an example in my next sentence.

stgemma wrote:
Knowing I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ for the good of His Body (the Church) is intensely motivating.
Quote:
Is the joy of helping others not enough motivation, in and of itself?
Heh...  Isn't that what I said? ("for the good of His Body)  But, as in my example of the disadvantaged, how do you even know how to help others?  Furthermore, we are called to help one another at a much deep level than solely physical or psychological. 

Quote:
Hypothetically, if atheism offered more moral support, as in, it provided stronger motivation to help others than Christianity, would you consider becoming an atheist? 
No.  If I find more empowerment outside of God then I have something I need to work on. 


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stgemma wrote:Except in

stgemma wrote:

Except in cases of certain mental illness, a murderer is quite aware of his act (whether or not he considers it wrong, which, in this case of "murder in secret" the murderer is obviously aware or he wouldn't trouble himself to do it in secret).  I'm sure you realize this and see the veracity of my original point which you are attempting to evade. 

Secret;

1.

done, made, or conducted without the knowledge of others: secret negotiations.
2.kept from the knowledge of any but the initiated or privileged: a secret password.
3.faithful or cautious in keeping confidential matters confidential; close-mouthed; reticent.
4.designed or working to escape notice, knowledge, or observation: a secret drawer; the secret police.
5.secluded, sheltered, or withdrawn: a secret hiding place.
6.beyond ordinary human understanding; esoteric.
7.(of information, a document, etc.)
a.bearing the classification secret.
b.limited to persons authorized to use information documents, etc., so classified.

Clear yet? Murder can be done in secret, and can stay secret

stgemma wrote:

How would God preventing a greater evil to befall a person be screwing up His divine plan?  God can use adversity in his plan and this does not mean He always has to.  Another point evaded.

Your God directly interferring in the mortal universe directly screws up his divine plan for the universe -_-

stgemma wrote:

The way someone dies disproves "some of his existence"?  

A particularly gruesome, long, and painful death can potentially disprove your gods omnibenevolence... i would consider that some of his existence.

What Would Kharn Do?


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Gauche wrote:stgemma

Gauche wrote:

stgemma wrote:

Hmmm....  Do you know of anyone murdered in secret?  (Of course not, then it wouldn't be secret.......)  Points to ponder:  Do you think the murderer isn't aware that he has murdered?  No murder is secret.   Does the fact that no one you consider important knows about this murder mean it is secret?    And no, murder is not a good thing, and not necessarily always going to result in something good, but this in no way disproves God's existence.  Maybe God has prevented a greater evil to befall the person murdered?  Maybe the murderer is going to feel remorse and admit his guilt and live his life making ammends?  Regardless, we are all going to die anyway.  You seem to think the way someone dies may disprove God's existence?

I saw a documentary about a serial killer in the US that claims to have killed more than 40 people. They can only confirm that he killed 13 people because they can't find the other bodies. It's a secret to everyone except the murderer.

So are you saying that god allowed 40 people to be killed so that one person could have a growing experience? What valuable lesson can a person learn from killing 40 people that they can't learn from killing 39 people or 2 people?

Ask the families of these murdered people.  Hopefully many of them have grown closer to God in their suffering.  And perhaps some of them will grow bitter.  Not everyone responds in a positive way.  In this self-sufficient, godless society we live in sometimes it takes a painful experience to get someone's attention and realize that they are not the center of the universe or that they exist for a purpose; that they were made for God and need Him.  There are probably numerous other possibilities we could consider as well, but I think this suffices to prove my point.
Quote:

I wasn't suggesting that murder proves that there's no god. I'm just trying to understand your rationale here. God allows bad things to happen so that people can learn from them is the gist of it right?

Sort of.  If our ultimate purpose for exisistence is to know, love and serve God, then every life circumstance, good or seemingly bad, can be used to attain that end.  Does God ordain every evil?  He certainly permits it.  It's entirely plausible that God at least uses the evil we cause in this world to have good, eternal consequences.  
Quote:
 So my question is why are there extraneous bad things?   So if a person is walking through the forest and they're torn to shreds by wild animals, and nobody ever finds a trace of them. The only thing anyone else knows is that the person is missing. So, what growing experience do people gain from that situation, that they wouldn't have had if the person died in a less horrific manner and never been found?
Perhaps it was God's final attempt at prompting the person to turn to Him?  I'm sure many hardened hearts turn to God when adversity strikes.  Again, my point is that these circumstances, as horrible as they seem, may have a purpose in God's plan; one that our limited minds can't always grasp on the natural level. 


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stgemma wrote: It was

stgemma wrote:

 It was actually one of *your posts (Edit:  ie, *butterbattle ) on another thread that I first ran into after having submitted my o.p.  It was nice to find a rational person who can engage in conversation about God w/out emotionally lashing out against the "theist".

 

   Yes, apart from the common thread of our religious skepticism the atheists here are a diverse group of personalities, education levels, and backgrounds. Unfortunately some of us go into the attack mode without much provocation while others  like butterbattle, bobspence, or Eloise ( she's a theist ) are virtually unflappable. 

  

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:  I

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  I have the normal human needs. The need for a sense of inner peace, a sense of contentment, a sense of meaning.  A sense of balance in a world that can quickly crush you to your knees.

  Those needs already existed in me before I became a fundamentalist Christian at age 15.  All during my Christian experience these needs remained unmet and I remained unfulfilled.  I gave Jesus every chance in the world to indicate his way was the way of inner contenment and that even in the face of adversity that I could experience "the peace that passeth all understanding" yada yada...

   I was a devoted Christian and and I talked the talk and walked the walk.  I prayed every morning and every night and read my Bible before I allowed myself to go sleep. My personal habits were pious and I pursued righteousness as much as I knew how to do so.  I even avoided looking at attractive women to avoid experiencing "lust". I was not a Christian poser in any sense of the word.   I was scrupulous in my conversation and avoided the use of profanity.  ( funny, I have been shocked at how many Christian theists come onto this board and have no problem with dropping the  "F" bomb.  What Would Jesus Fucking Do ?  )

   There was no relief to be found.  If Jesus existed he apparently had no interest in helping me.  I guess I wasn't devoted enough to merit his attention or perhaps he just enjoyed watching my faith crumble into dust.  ( There are also many academic issues with the Bible, both moral and historical that eventually provided the death blow to my faith. ) As a last attempt to hang onto my beliefs I even went to my pastor with my questions but his answers were just fumbling responses that were only meant to placate me.

   I'm an atheist now, but if my relationship with Jesus was a true and satisfying thing I would still be a devoted Christian.  All I wanted was the strength to endure under the painful burdens of my existence, to not constantly falter and stumble. To experience meaning in the midst of suffering. 

   I am not content to be his plaything or indulge him in his sadistic fascination with personal suffering. If Jesus was going to help me then he waited too late.  Game over.

Pro,

I nearly joined a Mennonite community - a very conservative one - almost Amish in fact.  They are very diligent about their faith and their Christian walk, but not all of them truly know God or have true faith; the kind that brings the peace that surpasses all things.  Although walk is important, without faith it is useless.  Good works are not always evidence of faith.  Obedience is not always evidence of faith.  God wants our hearts and not our deeds.  You may not have ever had true faith, or, perhaps, God has called you to a deeper union with Him.  One thing I found lacking in my fundamentalist experience is a good understanding of the spiritual life and the process of sanctification. 

 

I would suggest reading Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross.  Perhaps even some of Theresa of Avila's works that attempt to explain the souls journey to perfection.  Two of her works that come to mind: 1) The Way of Perfection 2) The Interior Castle. 

 

The spiritual life is complicated and not always easy to explain, but many devout Christians have the same experiences.  Abandonment (seeming anyway) is a common perception in Christian experience.  Mother Theresa said she had no experience of God for the better part of the end of her life.  Therese of Liseiux felt abandoned by God in her last several years.  My early Christian life was filled with godly consolation, warm fuzzy feelings, mystical experiences, answered prayers, little miracles, and then nothing for just about the past 6 years. 

Just when we think we are loving God, happily serving Him, relying on Him, He withdraws His presence (our sense of it anyway) to make us see the deeper ways in which we are still clinging to self.  It's part of that painful pruning.  And really, what could be more painful than to have God's presence taken away (once you had previously known it)?  But one with true faith will persist in seeking God all the more, finding no rest in this life, thus prompting him to abandon more and more of his attachments.  It leads to more self-emptying ("deny yourself" "pick up your cross....) which is necessary if we will attain a deeper union with God.  I know, I've been through many "dark night" experiences myself and am, even at this point, still in it to some extent.   

 

 


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Do you know what a 'no true

Do you know what a 'no true scotsman' fallacy is?  You keep committing it over and over.

BigUniverse wrote,

"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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butterbattle wrote:That was

butterbattle wrote:

That was a beautiful post, Prozac.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

My personal habits were pious and I pursued righteousness as much as I knew how to do so.

And we can still be righteous. We can still aid those who suffer, be kind to strangers, and respect this world. If your God, in spite of those things, would judge me for the simple reason that I have neither good reason nor will to even conceive that he exists, then so be it.

 

Yes, you can still do good unto others.  And Jesus said love covers a multitude of sins. 

I would still argue that we cannot know, without God's direction, how to aid the suffering, etc... 

As far as God's judgment upon you for having no "good reason nor will to even conceive that he exists" - I don't presume to know what that judgment will be.  I know that Jesus seemed more concerned in ones disposition (humility) and motives (love) than anything else. 


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The Doomed Soul

The Doomed Soul wrote:

stgemma wrote:

Except in cases of certain mental illness, a murderer is quite aware of his act (whether or not he considers it wrong, which, in this case of "murder in secret" the murderer is obviously aware or he wouldn't trouble himself to do it in secret).  I'm sure you realize this and see the veracity of my original point which you are attempting to evade. 

Secret;

1.

done, made, or conducted without the knowledge of others: secret negotiations.
2.kept from the knowledge of any but the initiated or privileged: a secret password.
3.faithful or cautious in keeping confidential matters confidential; close-mouthed; reticent.
4.designed or working to escape notice, knowledge, or observation: a secret drawer; the secret police.
5.secluded, sheltered, or withdrawn: a secret hiding place.
6.beyond ordinary human understanding; esoteric.
7.(of information, a document, etc.)
a.bearing the classification secret.
b.limited to persons authorized to use information documents, etc., so classified.

Clear yet? Murder can be done in secret, and can stay secret

stgemma wrote:

How would God preventing a greater evil to befall a person be screwing up His divine plan?  God can use adversity in his plan and this does not mean He always has to.  Another point evaded.

Your God directly interferring in the mortal universe directly screws up his divine plan for the universe -_-

stgemma wrote:

The way someone dies disproves "some of his existence"?  

A particularly gruesome, long, and painful death can potentially disprove your gods omnibenevolence... i would consider that some of his existence.

Soul,

I already answered your "murder in secret" objection.  You either missed the point, or evaded it.  


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   Thank you. I am doing a

   Thank you. I am doing a brief internet search for St. John of the Cross as an individual ( ie, his imprisonment, torture )  as well as his literary works.  If time permits later today I will attempt to locate a copy of Dark Night of the Soul at the local bookstore  so that I can actually sit down and examine it.

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"When a man loves cats, I am his friend and comrade, without further introduction." Mark Twain.


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 Quote:You admit to reading

 

Quote:

You admit to reading only a few posts but yet all of us are drones of each other?

That's not what I said.  Take a look again please. And I am talking about the site in general - not just posters, of which I admitted I had little observation of.  The statement "we can fix that" is ultimately condescending.  Even at least one poster of your forum here agrees with me, so it's not my Christian persecution-complex speaking. 
Quote:
Talk about immature, I can stop by Wal Mart and pick up a mirror for you.

This is no more a "hate site" than George Micheal is heterosexual.

Christianity may be what  posters here run into the most being that the site is based in a country with a Christian majority, but make no mistake about it, this website's posters address all sorts of absurd claims, from pantheism to Scientology, to faith healing, to Ouiji boards .......ect ect ect.

I'd suggest you lose the stupid stereotype and treat each poster here as an individual, just like you would want to be treated as an individual.

Have done so, thank you. 

 

 

 

 

 


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ProzacDeathWish wrote:  

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

   Thank you. I am doing a brief internet search for St. John of the Cross as an individual ( ie, his imprisonment, torture )  as well as his literary works.  If time permits later today I will attempt to locate a copy of Dark Night of the Soul at the local bookstore  so that I can actually sit down and examine it.

You're welcom.  No need to buy a book.  You may read it here:

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.toc.html

 

Peace~


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stgemma wrote:Ask the

stgemma wrote:

Ask the families of these murdered people.  Hopefully many of them have grown closer to God in their suffering.  And perhaps some of them will grow bitter.  Not everyone responds in a positive way.  In this self-sufficient, godless society we live in sometimes it takes a painful experience to get someone's attention and realize that they are not the center of the universe or that they exist for a purpose; that they were made for God and need Him.  There are probably numerous other possibilities we could consider as well, but I think this suffices to prove my point.

I don't think that proves your original point. You've now adjusted your story. Your original story was that god allows tragedy to befall people so that they can learn from it and ultimately be affected in a positive way like a child having rules imposed on them by a parent.

Now the parent is inflicting harm on the child for the purpose of causing them to grow bitter and miserable.

In this situation the child is right to point out the cruel nature of the parent.
 

Quote:
Sort of.  If our ultimate purpose for exisistence is to know, love and serve God, then every life circumstance, good or seemingly bad, can be used to attain that end.  Does God ordain every evil?  He certainly permits it.  It's entirely plausible that God at least uses the evil we cause in this world to have good, eternal consequences.  

Now you're contradicting yourself. You just said that sometime god allows people to suffer so that they will grow bitter. That's not a good consequence.

Quote:
Perhaps it was God's final attempt at prompting the person to turn to Him?  I'm sure many hardened hearts turn to God when adversity strikes.  Again, my point is that these circumstances, as horrible as they seem, may have a purpose in God's plan; one that our limited minds can't always grasp on the natural level. 



Doesn't god know what will happen already? Didn't god craft the situation for the person to disbelieve in the first place? Isn't god powerful enough to create a situation where the person would have believed from the beginning, without being mauled by animals? There are a lot of plot holes in your narrative.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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stgemma wrote:Soul,I already

stgemma wrote:

Soul,

I already answered your "murder in secret" objection.  You either missed the point, or evaded it.  

Well? which is it then?

 

You; Blah

Me; Refute Blah

You; YOU MISSED THE POINT! UH! STOP EVADING!

Me; ... o_O? wut?

stgemma wrote:

Hmmm....  Do you know of anyone murdered in secret?  (Of course not, then it wouldn't be secret.......)  Points to ponder:  Do you think the murderer isn't aware that he has murdered?  No murder is secret.   Does the fact that no one you consider important knows about this murder mean it is secret?   

There is no point to miss, and no evasion if im the one persuing the issue... just admit to pulling some bolox out your keester so we can move on.

 

What Would Kharn Do?


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Gauche wrote:I don't think

Gauche wrote:

I don't think that proves your original point. You've now adjusted your story. Your original story was that god allows tragedy to befall people so that they can learn from it and ultimately be affected in a positive way like a child having rules imposed on them by a parent.

That's not quite how I put it.  I don't recall saying anything about imposed rules either. 
Quote:


Now the parent is inflicting harm on the child for the purpose of causing them to grow bitter and miserable.
Didn't say that either.  It may be a person's response to adversity, period.  We can use adversity as a means to grow, or we can become bitter.  That is our choice.  Take relationships for instance:  Often relationships are strengthened in times of adversity and as a result of facing many difficulties in life together.  The point is that love is often best expressed when it involves suffering.  That is why I said love is most "real" through suffering.   
Quote:

Now you're contradicting yourself. You just said that sometime god allows people to suffer so that they will grow bitter. That's not a good consequence.

No.... I said that some people will become bitter.  I did not say that is one of the reasons god allows people to suffer. 

Quote:

Doesn't god know what will happen already?
He can know what will happen, yes, but having the ability to know does not mean that He orchestrates things for us.  Being omniscient doesn't interfere with free will.  That's a common fallacy. 

Quote:
Didn't god craft the situation for the person to disbelieve in the first place?
He doesn't necessarily craft the situation, nor does any interaction with us necessarily have to be connected to his knowledge of the future. 

Quote:
Isn't god powerful enough to create a situation where the person would have believed from the beginning, without being mauled by animals?
Like I said, perhaps it was God's final attempt (final, allowed "opportunity) at getting the person's attention?  Perhaps there were numerous other circumstances in life when that person could have come to faith/humility/repentance/etc.. less painfully.

Quote:
There are a lot of plot holes in your narrative.

First of all, I am not claiming to know with absolute certainty exactly why God permits every instance of evil in this world.  Suffering is a mystery as are many other things in the universe.  I am, however, trying to provide you with possibilities that don't conflict with God's nature.  I can see, from the simple parent-child analogy, the plausibility that God permits evil in this life (what we perceive as painful experiences/suffering) in order to show us our need of Him, our fallibility, our pride, etc.. etc..  You are reading plot holes and contradictions into my examples.  I'd simple like to show that allowing human suffering may not be as inconsistent with a loving God as many seem to think, no matter how unnatural to our minds it may be.  God's ways are not our ways.  They are high above ours.