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PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
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This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
RULES
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
SURE TO
FOLLOW THE
RULES!
RULES
This is the
Kill Em
With
Kindness
Forum!
PLEASE MAKE
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I'm very sorry you have never met someone who knew God, that you've never known Him, and that you discount those who witness to Him as crackpots. With Christ there is no suffering at all. If only you knew the bliss and complete freedom that could be had in Christ. It takes a lot of work to strip away the selfishness (pruning) and allow the fruit (unity with God/"Nirvana"/sanctity), but what Heaven, even on earth, it truly is!
I will say this: Most of Christianity has it wrong, and they are trying to impose their "morality" on unbelievers as if it could make the world better. True transformation has to come through true, personal compuction (realiziong of sin: humility). No one can make someone live a godly life. There is never going to be peace for this reason. Even if atheists had their way and converted all religious (although you only seem to target Christians here....) you could not impose your "morality" on others. There would never be agreement. Furthermore, even if everyone subscribed to some general, atheistic, "morality", b/c it doesn't come close to God's standards (which have our better good in consideration, but like little children, you fail to see it), it would fail.
Bear in mind, the above comes from a formerly angry, abused, addicted-in-every-way, bi-sexual, man-hating, mankind-hating, intelligent, now-mature person who has had the grace of living in God's Presence, in the here and now. St. John Vianney (the "Cure of Ars" [France]) once said: if we could experience, for one brief moment, how much God loves us, we would die of joy! You think and think and use all your silly logic to "see" how "impossible" it is that God exists. It's your pride and love of sin that make you blind. I can rationalize away the impossiblity of God's existence too, but I learned how to stop being my own God, like many of you wish to be. But there is such a thing as Heaven on Earth if you would abandon your preconceived notions, put aside your pride, be willing to abandon your sins, and empty yourself so that God can fill you with Himself. This is the "deny yourself" Jesus was speaking of. The "take up your cross", b/c it is very hard at first. We want control. But real control - the kind that liberates you - comes from self-abandoment of your will to God's will. Allowing the pain of pruning away at parts of ourselves that we very much wish to possess, that, once released, give way to far better things. This is why (some, albeit few...) Christians rejoice in their afflictions. It's how many of what you consider "sufferings" and "injustices" in this life are really graces (prunings). People fill themselves with silly, passing pleasures which actually do more harm than good. They kill themselves (physically, mentally AND spiritually) with their drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, and every sort of immorality. God's ways are not grievous. They are liberating. What a joy to be rid of filling myself with such passing and unfulfilling garbage. Yes, it's all good, for a short time, but in the end you do yourself some harm, and over time a lot of harm, and all the while you never accomplish what you wish: to be fulfilled. You're happy for a moment, and the next you are empty again. Always trying to fill yourself: with people, with substances, with material possessions, with power, with knowledge....
You will never be happy until you rid yourself of these things. You were made for God. We are ALL called to holiness. My guess is, if you know people who believed and lived these things, you'd KNOW God exists. And I don't think it is limited to Christianity. I believe Christ's "way" is lived, to some extent, through a minority of people of other religions like Buddhism and some nature-oriented, pagan relgions, but I believe there are few that truly experience and live this. Jesus said the way was narrow and few would find it. Be one of the few. You won't regret it.
Peace~
Too long and boring? The Bible is too I'm sure. You can't shoot down what you don't put any effor or focus into.
Here's the short version:
Many of you are believers, you just hate God b/c you love your lifestyle which is killing you and making you miserable. You're not happy, you're angry at God and anyone who professed to believe in Him or find peace with Him b/c you have made no effort to step down from your pedestal and admit that you wish to be your own God. Like silly little children who sulk b/c they don't understand their parent's rules and prefer their childish ways...
You were made to be holy - like God. It takes humility. Humility will give you "ears to hear" and "eyes to see". God isn't a tyrant like you envisioned your parents in your youthfulness. He wants you to grow up to be like Him and share in His divinity. Like a tree that has to bear the uncomfortable pruning, our suffering and "injustices" endured in this life are for our advancement. They are for our own downfall if we insist, in our pride, to follow our own destructive path.
....God sends no one to condemnation in Hell. We choose to go there. And stop taking every word of the Bible literally. The essence of the message is consistent: God loves us, we are blessed when we obey Him, we are more blessed when we love Him, we punish ourselves when we don't.
Stop denying Vishnu and read start reading these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_sacred_texts
So your view of life is that you are perpetually a child living by rules that you can't understand from a parent that you can't see, and anyone who disagrees with you is an obstinate child who doesn't want to live according to rules?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Captain, I am making an analogy.
And no, everyone who disagrees with me is not necessarily an obstinate child, but in many cases I believe this is a fair analogy. The "parent" many cannot "see" is not recognized as being like a parent , b/c, like children many only focus on the pain and confusion in a circumstance and do not recognize it as a growing experience.
I don't deny anything with the sweet aroma of the Divine. (in response to Vishnu....)
(haven't figured out the quote thing yet)
(testing....)
You said people who doubt god because of murder (among other things) are like children who don't understand being punished. So obviously you think being murdered is a growing experience right?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Yes, it can be.
Dunno, dont care
What motivates you; Myself
How will disbelieving "improve" "life" ; Irrelevant
(you seem already dead) ; Why thank you!
Do you live for this world (your earthly life) ; This world? nay... i live for battle!
For pleasure? ; Nay! Pleasure is for those filthy, honorless Slaanesh worshippers... not fit for a follower of Khorne!
To escape suffering? Suffering is of Slaanesh as well, of which i am vehemently opposed.
Have you compassion (for others - especially for strangers)? ; Compassion is for the weak... and the weak must die!
Do you work for the common good? ; Blood for the Blood God!
What reason have you to? ; Skull for the Skull Throne!
Is love real or is it a chemical reaction; a figment of our imagination? ; Chemical and Psychological
Actually, mine was more akin to... 1. Why is "God" such a bad strategist? and 2. Why do unborn babies on unbelievers go to Hell?
Is this another bad metaphor? or we gonna start something X-rated?
Nay! for they are followers of Nurgle...
... eugenics >.>
Damn hippy beetnick!
Stop fucking preaching and go back to Liberty college
What Would Kharn Do?
Welcome to the forum.
I've read most of the Bible.
Examples?
Friends. Family. Peking Duck.
I'm not an atheist because I think it will improve my life. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. It's not that complicated.
Sure.
I want to.
How do you define love? What makes it real?
How do you know this?
Then why do you believe in God?
Was it meaningless when you were an atheist?
What motivation do you have to be moral?
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
Broad, sweeping assumptions, condescending, arrogant...
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Even if there's something to be learned from being murdered, it's not something that can be called upon and applied later in life so how is that a growing experience? That's kind of an odd analogy. God, the parent has you, the child murdered as punishment so that you can learn a lesson that you can't quite understand or use because you're dead.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Eh, Modgods, bump this whole sh'bang up to AvT forums since everything about it, and subsequently every poster after it, is breaking Kindness forum rules
edit; Wait... a minute... whats going on here... since when do i care ?!
What Would Kharn Do?
My post wasn't breaking the kindness rules.
We're all going to die someday. If being murdered will be for someone's benefit, I don't object to going that way.
Glad to see you got the quote working... now for proper usage! ;-p
(only 1 sentence in my shpeel broke rules oddly enough... im so dissappointed... )
What Would Kharn Do?
Oh, I see. It's a growing experience for the people who are able to avoid your god's murderous streak, not the people who are actually victims of it. That makes more sense. Then why would god bother allowing people to be murdered in secret if people need to be aware of it for a growing experience?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Bloody fucking hell. Do you ever shut up at home!
You appear to be wavering between Agnosticism and Christianity.
Hostility here towards Theists? Nah. (I'm
kidding).
Infintile stuff... No more than your post actually was.
Personally, I don't care what you join. I'm definitely not one of this hive, as anyone here can tell you.
I've no need for your gods, your religion, your need to belong to any community, and
find that infintile garbage and blogs deserve the same in return, except that I prefer to leave out the blogging in response.
False
Can be
What Would Kharn Do?
Oh no, I didn't break any rules, did I? I just use 'recent posts,' so I always forget to check.
Almost...maybe...
I actually agree with you on a lot of this. I think some of the material is rather over-the-top, like "Believe in God? We can fix that." or "THEIST POSTS WILL BE DESTROYED."
Perhaps it's just my personal preference, but I would like it if some of the more provocative descriptions etc. were changed. We should promote an environment where people talk openly about their beliefs, and I think some of the stuff on the site might be detrimental to this cause. I can't count the number of times theists have come in here and posted, "OMG, atheists won't let me post there! Censorship!"
If I sacrifice something for someone, then I love that person?
What makes a person a true Christian?
So......even though it seems like there's no God.....there is? How do you know that?
True, but irrelevant.
Aren't you trying to tell us that you have everything right?
You do the best you can with what you have.
How?
How?
Is the joy of helping others not enough motivation, in and of itself?
Ah, eternal significance.
Hypothetically, if atheism offered more moral support, as in, it provided stronger motivation to help others than Christianity, would you consider becoming an atheist?
Hahahahahaha.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I saw a documentary about a serial killer in the US that claims to have killed more than 40 people. They can only confirm that he killed 13 people because they can't find the other bodies. It's a secret to everyone except the murderer.
So are you saying that god allowed 40 people to be killed so that one person could have a growing experience? What valuable lesson can a person learn from killing 40 people that they can't learn from killing 39 people or 2 people?
I wasn't suggesting that murder proves that there's no god. I'm just trying to understand your rationale here. God allows bad things to happen so that people can learn from them is the gist of it right? So my question is why are there extraneous bad things? So if a person is walking through the forest and they're torn to shreds by wild animals, and nobody ever finds a trace of them. The only thing anyone else knows is that the person is missing. So, what growing experience do people gain from that situation, that they wouldn't have had if the person died in a less horrific manner and never been found?
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
What about little girls in Islamic countries that get stoned for being raped?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I have the normal human needs. The need for a sense of inner peace, a sense of contentment, a sense of meaning. A sense of balance in a world that can quickly crush you to your knees.
Those needs already existed in me before I became a fundamentalist Christian at age 15. All during my Christian experience these needs remained unmet and I remained unfulfilled. I gave Jesus every chance in the world to indicate his way was the way of inner contenment and that even in the face of adversity that I could experience "the peace that passeth all understanding" yada yada...
I was a devoted Christian and and I talked the talk and walked the walk. I prayed every morning and every night and read my Bible before I allowed myself to go sleep. My personal habits were pious and I pursued righteousness as much as I knew how to do so. I even avoided looking at attractive women to avoid experiencing "lust". I was not a Christian poser in any sense of the word. I was scrupulous in my conversation and avoided the use of profanity. ( funny, I have been shocked at how many Christian theists come onto this board and have no problem with dropping the "F" bomb. What Would Jesus Fucking Do ? )
There was no relief to be found. If Jesus existed he apparently had no interest in helping me. I guess I wasn't devoted enough to merit his attention or perhaps he just enjoyed watching my faith crumble into dust. ( There are also many academic issues with the Bible, both moral and historical that eventually provided the death blow to my faith. ) As a last attempt to hang onto my beliefs I even went to my pastor with my questions but his answers were just fumbling responses that were only meant to placate me.
I'm an atheist now, but if my relationship with Jesus was a true and satisfying thing I would still be a devoted Christian. All I wanted was the strength to endure under the painful burdens of my existence, to not constantly falter and stumble. To experience meaning in the midst of suffering.
I am not content to be his plaything or indulge him in his sadistic fascination with personal suffering. If Jesus was going to help me then he waited too late. Game over.
That was a beautiful post, Prozac.
And we can still be righteous. We can still aid those who suffer, be kind to strangers, and respect this world. If your God, in spite of those things, would judge me for the simple reason that I have neither good reason nor will to even conceive that he exists, then so be it.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Epic Win.
After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him.
The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.
MySpace
I don't agree that this site is a Christian hate site it's an equal opportunity site of debate against believers of any faith. Christians are the primary theists that visit so the largest portion of the topics and discussion will be regarding Christianity.
I have no hate for Christians or a god that doesn't exist. I may dislike the things believers do to try to propagate their beliefs on others but that's as far as it goes.
This is like a report from an explorer that dropped in an area and finds only desert and sand and didn't spend enough time in exploring before they went home to make a report and totally missed out on what was over the next hill. You need to spend a lot more time before you can make such statements.
Well you could sleep in on Sundays.
In reality it would allow you to take charge of your own life and really begin to understand. You see only what you wish to see and reality is completely hidden from you because you attribute everything to a god.
Each day I get up and know that I will learn something I did not know the day before.
Everybody lives for themselves and denial or attributing it to a god changes nothing.
Compassion and kindness are not limited to Christians at all and neither is cruelty or indifference.
You don't know me to quote Roxy the Grim Reaper.
As with others I was raised a Christian and went to parochial schools including a Jesuit Grad school. I believed for years but no longer do.
There is more to understand than just the hearsay writings of the Gospels in grasping that there is likely no gods at all.
There is more than this simplistic summary that discredits the likelihood of a god existing. I suggest you consider why you don't believe in Zeus, Ra, or Enki. Yahweh is not really much different than the jealous and petty gods of the ancients and is likely to be an outgrowth of Ugaritic mythology.
Please don't assume and try using the search on this site to note that these subjects are explained.
I pretty much agree with George Carlin, don't do harm to others period unless you have no choice. One commandment.
The less than wonderful afterlife described in Revelation for believers seems to indicate a dictatorship imposed by a king though I understand how believers justify it as why wouldn't you want to praise god for all he has done. It's still imposed as a tyrant would do.
Suffering is so not a thing of grace but is a terrible experience for any and all that get to experience it.
Again, you don't know me or anyone here to make a claim that we don't make important contributions to help others.
How can one hate what is not real?
It's pretty hard to make these claims that we are unaware of the claimed existence of a god, one can't go even 5 minutes in the US without having it put in one's face. Repetition and assertions does not make fantasy real.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
You admit to reading only a few posts but yet all of us are drones of each other? Talk about immature, I can stop by Wal Mart and pick up a mirror for you.
This is no more a "hate site" than George Micheal is heterosexual.
Christianity may be what posters here run into the most being that the site is based in a country with a Christian majority, but make no mistake about it, this website's posters address all sorts of absurd claims, from pantheism to Scientology, to faith healing, to Ouiji boards .......ect ect ect.
I'd suggest you lose the stupid stereotype and treat each poster here as an individual, just like you would want to be treated as an individual.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Me thinks I've struck a nerve.
Don't go away, you're not far behind.
My Engrish is at least as good as yours.
Except in cases of certain mental illness, a murderer is quite aware of his act (whether or not he considers it wrong, which, in this case of "murder in secret" the murderer is obviously aware or he wouldn't trouble himself to do it in secret). I'm sure you realize this and see the veracity of my original point which you are attempting to evade.
How would God preventing a greater evil to befall a person be screwing up His divine plan? God can use adversity in his plan and this does not mean He always has to. Another point evaded.
The way someone dies disproves "some of his existence"? And you are my Engrish teacher?
No, it doesn't disprove anything. The supposed "immorality of God" is a dishonest and weak excuse. Everyone knows that things are not always as they seem. Even science does not have a perfect understanding of all things. Look at mankind's history in misunderstanding the universe. Have we discovered everything yet? Only an ignoramous would say 'yes'. My parent-child analogy is a good one.
Simple. Someone who actually follows Christ - does what He commands - not just on Sunday morning, not for personal gain, and not just for others to see.
Secret;
1.
Clear yet? Murder can be done in secret, and can stay secret
A particularly gruesome, long, and painful death can potentially disprove your gods omnibenevolence... i would consider that some of his existence.
What Would Kharn Do?
Yes, apart from the common thread of our religious skepticism the atheists here are a diverse group of personalities, education levels, and backgrounds. Unfortunately some of us go into the attack mode without much provocation while others like butterbattle, bobspence, or Eloise ( she's a theist ) are virtually unflappable.
I nearly joined a Mennonite community - a very conservative one - almost Amish in fact. They are very diligent about their faith and their Christian walk, but not all of them truly know God or have true faith; the kind that brings the peace that surpasses all things. Although walk is important, without faith it is useless. Good works are not always evidence of faith. Obedience is not always evidence of faith. God wants our hearts and not our deeds. You may not have ever had true faith, or, perhaps, God has called you to a deeper union with Him. One thing I found lacking in my fundamentalist experience is a good understanding of the spiritual life and the process of sanctification.
I would suggest reading Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. Perhaps even some of Theresa of Avila's works that attempt to explain the souls journey to perfection. Two of her works that come to mind: 1) The Way of Perfection 2) The Interior Castle.
The spiritual life is complicated and not always easy to explain, but many devout Christians have the same experiences. Abandonment (seeming anyway) is a common perception in Christian experience. Mother Theresa said she had no experience of God for the better part of the end of her life. Therese of Liseiux felt abandoned by God in her last several years. My early Christian life was filled with godly consolation, warm fuzzy feelings, mystical experiences, answered prayers, little miracles, and then nothing for just about the past 6 years.
Just when we think we are loving God, happily serving Him, relying on Him, He withdraws His presence (our sense of it anyway) to make us see the deeper ways in which we are still clinging to self. It's part of that painful pruning. And really, what could be more painful than to have God's presence taken away (once you had previously known it)? But one with true faith will persist in seeking God all the more, finding no rest in this life, thus prompting him to abandon more and more of his attachments. It leads to more self-emptying ("deny yourself" "pick up your cross....) which is necessary if we will attain a deeper union with God. I know, I've been through many "dark night" experiences myself and am, even at this point, still in it to some extent.
Do you know what a 'no true scotsman' fallacy is? You keep committing it over and over.
I would still argue that we cannot know, without God's direction, how to aid the suffering, etc...
As far as God's judgment upon you for having no "good reason nor will to even conceive that he exists" - I don't presume to know what that judgment will be. I know that Jesus seemed more concerned in ones disposition (humility) and motives (love) than anything else.
Soul,
I already answered your "murder in secret" objection. You either missed the point, or evaded it.
Thank you. I am doing a brief internet search for St. John of the Cross as an individual ( ie, his imprisonment, torture ) as well as his literary works. If time permits later today I will attempt to locate a copy of Dark Night of the Soul at the local bookstore so that I can actually sit down and examine it.
You're welcom. No need to buy a book. You may read it here:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/dark_night.toc.html
Peace~
I don't think that proves your original point. You've now adjusted your story. Your original story was that god allows tragedy to befall people so that they can learn from it and ultimately be affected in a positive way like a child having rules imposed on them by a parent.
Now the parent is inflicting harm on the child for the purpose of causing them to grow bitter and miserable.
In this situation the child is right to point out the cruel nature of the parent.
Now you're contradicting yourself. You just said that sometime god allows people to suffer so that they will grow bitter. That's not a good consequence.
Doesn't god know what will happen already? Didn't god craft the situation for the person to disbelieve in the first place? Isn't god powerful enough to create a situation where the person would have believed from the beginning, without being mauled by animals? There are a lot of plot holes in your narrative.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Well? which is it then?
You; Blah
Me; Refute Blah
You; YOU MISSED THE POINT! UH! STOP EVADING!
Me; ... o_O? wut?
There is no point to miss, and no evasion if im the one persuing the issue... just admit to pulling some bolox out your keester so we can move on.
What Would Kharn Do?