Atheism - is it worth all the trouble? [Kill Em With Kindness]

jman
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Atheism - is it worth all the trouble? [Kill Em With Kindness]

Hey.

I'm jman,  and this is my first post! Smiling

All I really wanted to ask, mostly to the RRS, but also to all atheist activists everywhere, why are you going through all of the trouble to shoot down theism?

I'm sorry if this seems insultingly stupid, but here's my point. I don't believe in leprechauns. I also affirm my disbelief by living my life like I don't believe in leprechauns. Leprechauns do not change what, how, when, or where I do anything in my life. (Except that the movie might have given me a nightmare or two, but...anyway) I just went about life without wasting any time or thought on those silly made up creatures that didn't exist. I wasn't motivated to pick up my pen and start to crank out books - Leprechauns are Not Great, The Leprechaun Puzzle, The Leprechaun Delusion, The Leprechaun Who Wasn't There - or go on tours debating with everyone I could find (granted, probably not many, but this is for arguments sake) who believes in Leprechauns. My unbelief has not lead me to go on a crusade to tear down Leprechaunology. In fact, it hasn't effected me at all.

I'd like to hear the reasons for the atheistic attack on theism. Why go through all of the trouble that it's costing you? Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?

I don't believe in Leprechauns, you don't believe in God. Why is there such a difference in the way that our unbelief effects our lives?

 


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Welcome jman.This question

Welcome jman.

This question has been done to death-yes Leprechaunology hasn't affected you at all. The same can't be said for the majority of theism though.

Think of a war that didn't have theism involved at some level. Think of the scientific advance lost in the christian dark ages. Think of the current war on science and the opposition of stem cell research. Think of 9/11. Think of the fact America would rather elect someone purely because they read the bible than a qualified person who doesn't. Think of the virtually non existent line between church and state.Think of the fragile middle east with it's competing religion. Of suicide bombers and children who die because their parents would rather pray than take them to doctors.

Think of the athiest cut off from his family for daring to not believe.Of endless division caused by different sects of the same religion.

Leprechaunology hasn't affected anyone. But if it's followers started threating the survival of mankind, people would have an obligation to speak up. Theism has affected everyone to walk the planet.

For interest,are you atheist?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

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This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

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I'm on an aleprechaun

I'm on an aleprechaun crusade, too.

Turns out those who believe in leprechauns are trying to introduce their "pot o' gold" theory in economics class. They claim that economics can't explain the existence of gold; they believe that the only explanation is that all gold comes from leprechauns. Though this explanation has no support among economists, they are "playing to the controversy."

They are also trying to stop everyone who is not Irish from owning gold. They believe that the leprechaun Bible says quite plainly, "For those who do not speak the brogue are blasphemous to Our ears, and that those of the brogue shall not trade with those of the flat dialect, or shall themselves be outcast, and desecrate Our holy Gold no more."

Then there are those who are trying to legislate leprechaun morality, and will only vote for those who claim a belief in leprechauns, whether they are a good candidate, or a sucky candidate who is going to lead us into unprovoked wars against the non-leprechaun-believing world.

And finally, their music sucks. There's only so much Irish Rovers one world can take.

So, in closing, all I can say is, though I don't believe in leprechauns, and my non-belief is not bad, those that do believe in leprechauns are fucking up the world, and so I actively oppose them.

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I'm not going through any

I'm not going through any trouble - not costing me a thing to be an atheist.

Now if you're asking why the RRS and those who write on atheism do what they're doing - I think you have it backwards. From what I've seen, there is no atheist attack on theism. The books (as I've read them) read as defense against the theist attack, not the reverse.

There have been public figures claiming American atheists aren't good Americans (and that they shouldn't be citizens). There are laws being put forth claiming Christianity alone has contributed positively to Western society. We've had a candidate for President who wants to rewrite the Constitution to fit what his version of God intended according to the Bible.

Where are the atheists attacking theism, again?

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nigelTheBold wrote:I'm on an

nigelTheBold wrote:

I'm on an aleprechaun crusade, too.

Turns out those who believe in leprechauns are trying to introduce their "pot o' gold" theory in economics class. They claim that economics can't explain the existence of gold; they believe that the only explanation is that all gold comes from leprechauns. Though this explanation has no support among economists, they are "playing to the controversy."

They are also trying to stop everyone who is not Irish from owning gold. They believe that the leprechaun Bible says quite plainly, "For those who do not speak the brogue are blasphemous to Our ears, and that those of the brogue shall not trade with those of the flat dialect, or shall themselves be outcast, and desecrate Our holy Gold no more."

Then there are those who are trying to legislate leprechaun morality, and will only vote for those who claim a belief in leprechauns, whether they are a good candidate, or a sucky candidate who is going to lead us into unprovoked wars against the non-leprechaun-believing world.

And finally, their music sucks. There's only so much Irish Rovers one world can take.

So, in closing, all I can say is, though I don't believe in leprechauns, and my non-belief is not bad, those that do believe in leprechauns are fucking up the world, and so I actively oppose them.

 

Funniest thing I have heard all week. Except doesn't it follow that if Gold exists, then so do Leprechauns, because someone had to put it there...therefore Leprechauns exist. Fooled you, you stupid Aleprechaunist!

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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HeyZeusCreaseToe

HeyZeusCreaseToe wrote:

Funniest thing I have heard all week. Except doesn't it follow that if Gold exists, then so do Leprechauns, because someone had to put it there...therefore Leprechauns exist. Fooled you, you stupid Aleprechaunist!

So where does Endor fit in all of this?

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I am glad that Leprechauns

I am glad that Leprechauns and god are at the same level. Good start.

Now, as for the movie...that was NOT Jennifer Aniston's best role was it? Smiling CLICK

jman wrote:

Why go through all of the trouble that it's costing you? Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?

It isn't costing me anything to hold no belief in a god. What do you think it costs a person? Why do theists 'just want to be left alone' but are the first ones to rise up in outrage when someone disagrees with their beliefs?

 

 

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Endor is not real, there are

Endor is not real, there are no Ewoks, only Leprechauns. The fact that you would even think such things just goes to show that invisible pink unicorn is putting doubts in your head to draw you away from Leprechauns. Follow the rainbow and you will become rich beyond your wildest dreams!

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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All I really wanted to ask,

All I really wanted to ask, mostly to you, but also to all theists everywhere, why are you going through all of the trouble to shoot down atheism?

I'm sorry if this seems insultingly stupid, but here's my point.  I do believe in evolution.  I also affirm my belief by living my life like I do believe in evolution.  Evolution does not change what, how, when or where I do anything in my life. (Except that movie might have given me a few laughs, but...anyway) I just went about life without wasting any time or thought on those scientific theories that have evidence.  I wasn't motivated to pick up my pen and start to crank out books - Evolution is Great, The Evolution that Was There - or go on tours debating with everyone I could find (granted, probably not many, but this is for arguments sake) who doesn't believe in Evolution.  My belief has not lead me to go on a crusade to tear down refuges and attack innocent people.  In fact, it hasn't affected me at all.

I'd like to hear the reasons for theists to attack atheism.  Why go through all the trouble that it's costing you?  Why doesn't believe and let disbelieve work for theists?

I believe in evolution, and you believe in a god. Why is there such a difference in the way that our belief effects our lives?

 

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I only have time to reply

I only have time to reply once for tonight, thanks to an O'Chem test tomorrow morning. And this next week isn't going to look too promising either. It's finals week again, and if I even come on here to read the posts, I'll get sucked in and no studying will be done. Smiling I really like all of the discussion here.

First, I'm sorry if you've been asked this many time before. It's the first time I've asked anyone though, and I just wanted to know what an atheist would say to it. And no, I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian. And who knows what kind of people come on here claiming Christianity, so let me just say that I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (and please don't change the topic to the inerrancy of the Bible. there's a who thread or five dedicated to this, so let's argue this on those. thanks) and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that religion is causing the fall of mankind. I know that that's actually the exact opposite goal of Christianity. And I know that it's true that religion has been the cause of a lot of turmoil in this world, but non-religious leaders have had their fair share of crimes against humanity, too.

And would you consider a crime caused by someone who used religion to gain power, even though they do not believe it themselves, a religious crime? Personally, I blame the man abusing religion rather than religion itself. I think the depravity of man is the cause the world's hardships, and false and corrupt religions are just the fruits of man's sin. It's just displacing the blame to point to religion and say "That's the problem!" Our depravity is the true source of the troubles we face today.

I know that the goal of Christianity is not to destroy man kind. In fact, it's just the opposite.


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 Jman, what do you care

 

Jman, what do you care about? Why?

Why not just be a nihilist about everything?

 


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EXC wrote: Jman, what do

EXC wrote:

 

Jman, what do you care about? Why?

Why not just be a nihilist about everything?

 

 

Or for that matter why did jman care to sign up on our site and ask the questions at all? 

 

It may be easier to shut up but many of us prefer answers, much like you.  I know I'd like to see if the world can overcome brainwashing and childhood indoctrination of deep seated beliefs.  That's a question I think the answer is worth spending a great deal of time on.

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God of Abraham is

God of Abraham is superstitious dogma, and in "religious terms" is the Devil in us. This Devil is all our enemy.  Dogmatic religion is obviously unhealthy. 

    Theists by label are not the enemy. Believing or being open to a higher other or "god" something is not in it self odd or unhealthy or dangerous. Aren't scientists math theists ? 

Everyone is in AWE of life. Some call it 'GAWED'. Dogma, fear, and superstition are the enemy, and that is what the major Abrahamic religions basically are.  It promotes prejudice, fear, and belittles this life NOW. It's much easier to kill others thinking God has a fair future plan for the murdered.

Want more examples, of why religion needs to be stopped ???  A trip to the mideast might help. It's much like the Xain past. Kill a virgin or gay for having sex, or for simply questioning the priest masters ..... etc.


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Quote:I know that the goal

Quote:
I know that the goal of Christianity is not to destroy man kind. In fact, it's just the opposite.

Presumably, as a washed in the blood, bible believing literalist, you think that Islam is the work of satan, right?  You know that their goal is not to destroy mankind either, right?  They are sure that Allah just wants them to get rid of the infidels, and then things will be awesome.

Noble goals don't mean noble results, my friend.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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When people start voting

When people start voting according to their belief in leprechauns, then I'll go after them. When people call me a " fairy worshiper " because I don't believe in leprechauns, then I'll go after them. When people put " In leprechauns we trust " on my money, then I'll go after them. When those that believe in leprechauns repress scientific inquiry, sexuality, education, and personal freedom, then I'll go after them.

Come join me at my blog AfterFaith or on the forums at The Atheist Network.


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Welcome

If you look around at some of the posts you will find some truly nutty christians posting here, but also some nice ones. If you continue on as you have been, we'll try to be nice to you (but obviously don't expect us to respect your beliefs).

There have already been some good posts here. (nice one Nigel) I know it probably won't change your beliefs, but look up some of the threads about the inerracy of the bible, especially those by Rook.

Religion is still causing a lot of turmoil. Wars aside it is causing a lot of hatred and persecution across the world (including the USA). It also causes a lot of ignorance, people disregarding scientific progress bacause their religion tells them to. Ignoring the greenhouse effect because either they don't believe it or because they think revelations will come first (including people in government who are supposed to be the ones trying to stop it). Persecuting whichever groups they are told to (homosexuals, other religious groups etc). The list goes on and on.

"would you consider a crime caused by someone who used religion to gain power, even though they do not believe it themselves, a religious crime?"

No, but being able to use religion as a tool to get people to do horrible things is one of its problems.

The "false and corrupt religions" believe that they are true and that your religion is false and corrupt. How do you know (not using the bible, they have books too) that they are not right?

Christianity makes no claim to try and save mankind, other than his soul. This is another problem. The church believes that suffering is good and that it is God's plan, as long as you save the soul. This is not saveing mankind. Christians have committed many attrocities based on this belief.

 

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Oh.. I forgot to add...

Oh.. I forgot to add... please read MY ESSAY ON THE SUBJECT.  It's short, and sums up my opinion very well.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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The Oath of Jake I do pledge

The Oath of Jake I do pledge in the honor of the one eternal truth, all is One, all is God.

     Now what ?      Hey, fly me to the moon , as the church says no to such powerful knowledge. Go figure ? ...... how come ? 

   

  

   

  


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The CNP

Jake wrote:

When people start voting according to their belief in leprechauns, then I'll go after them. When people call me a " fairy worshiper " because I don't believe in leprechauns, then I'll go after them. When people put " In leprechauns we trust " on my money, then I'll go after them. When those that believe in leprechauns repress scientific inquiry, sexuality, education, and personal freedom, then I'll go after them.

Then the people you need to get after is the Council for National Policy.  Blow the whistle on that group and you'll stop the religious right.  But I think it's too late in the game to change the outcome.


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jman wrote:I only have time

jman wrote:

I only have time to reply once for tonight, thanks to an O'Chem test tomorrow morning. And this next week isn't going to look too promising either. It's finals week again, and if I even come on here to read the posts, I'll get sucked in and no studying will be done. Smiling I really like all of the discussion here.

First, I'm sorry if you've been asked this many time before. It's the first time I've asked anyone though, and I just wanted to know what an atheist would say to it. And no, I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian. And who knows what kind of people come on here claiming Christianity, so let me just say that I believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (and please don't change the topic to the inerrancy of the Bible. there's a who thread or five dedicated to this, so let's argue this on those. thanks) and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that religion is causing the fall of mankind. I know that that's actually the exact opposite goal of Christianity. And I know that it's true that religion has been the cause of a lot of turmoil in this world, but non-religious leaders have had their fair share of crimes against humanity, too.

And would you consider a crime caused by someone who used religion to gain power, even though they do not believe it themselves, a religious crime? Personally, I blame the man abusing religion rather than religion itself. I think the depravity of man is the cause the world's hardships, and false and corrupt religions are just the fruits of man's sin. It's just displacing the blame to point to religion and say "That's the problem!" Our depravity is the true source of the troubles we face today.

I know that the goal of Christianity is not to destroy man kind. In fact, it's just the opposite.

Lets make one thing clear, this particular site, but in general, skeptics also, reject all sorts of superstition, theism is merely one, unfortunatly it is the most organized and in every nation on the face of the planet has an influance on global politics. If humanity is to collectively survive we need to work toward an attitude of treating personal whims like theism as a pastime and not a worldview.

We also reject claims of pantheism, ghosts, vampires and tarot cards. For the same reason you reject the claims of Scientology we reject your magical claims as well.

In all this you need to keep in mind that we are aware that 6 billion people will not be a clone of each other and any morally decent person does not want to seek a fascist state outlawing religion. So please while you stay and debate us here, try to refrain from buying such a fallacious stereotype.

We are your classmates, co-workers, family members and friends. Outside the issue of religion we can and often do overlap on issues such as politics, hobbies and entertainment. Our goal is not to opress anyone, but to do in the words of Thomas Jefferson,

"Question with boldness even the existence of God , for if there be one, surely he would pay more homage to reason than to that of blindfolded fear" Thomas Jefferson.

He was a deist who equated the virgin birth and death of Jesus to being in the same class as Minerva being born out of the brain of Jupiter.

He did, however believe in a generic god who started everything and stepped aside. We would still have a problem with even that claim, but I think HIS attitude, if he were alive today, would not be one hate or fear because his personal beliefs were challenged.

So while here, do not take things personally, treat all the members here as separate individuals and don't confuse blasphemy or criticism with hating you personally, and you should do fine, even if you never switch positions.

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jman wrote:Why doesn't

jman wrote:

Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?

Some of us care if what we believe is true.

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jman wrote:I wouldn't go as

jman wrote:

I wouldn't go as far as to say that religion is causing the fall of mankind. I know that that's actually the exact opposite goal of Christianity. And I know that it's true that religion has been the cause of a lot of turmoil in this world, but non-religious leaders have had their fair share of crimes against humanity, too.

Hey! What a coincidence. Christianity and I share the same goal. The question is, what might cause the fall of mankind, and what might forestall it?

There are many who follow the doctrines of Christ. And there are many who don't. Some that follow His doctrines are good people. Some are terrible, evil people. Some who don't believe in Him are good people. Some are terrible, evil people.

The goodness some attribute to the following of a faith is nothing more than the goodness that resides within us already. The evil some attribute to a lack of faith, or a corruption by evil forces, is nothing more than the evil that resides within us already. We are all products and victims of human nature. The sooner we realize we are easily misled and corrupted by our own ideals, the sooner we can embrace knowledge and wisdom.

This applies to theists and atheists alike.

The major difference between atheists and theists, as far as knowledge is concerned, is that many atheists have abandoned certain knowledge (and the knowledge of certainty) for contingent knowledge, probable knowledge. When you are certain of something, the opposite becomes impossible. This happens even among sceptical atheists, so it's not a problem with theism per se. Again, it's human nature, both the fount and corrupter of all that is good in us.

With theism, there is a realm in which you are asked to suspend scepticism. For some, that is the only effect: they have faith, and in all that is observable and empirical, they resume scepticism. This sort of belief affects nobody else. It is a personal thing. There are others who use the lack of scepticism in their belief, and extend that to all the beliefs touch upon. These are the people who are not sceptical of empirical observation and the logical conclusions thereof -- they are downright hostile. This includes those who insist the sun revolves around a flat earth, the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that Intelligent Design is a sound scientific hypothesis.

I think you'll find most of us here don't insist on absolute rationality. We all have irrational beliefs, every one of us. Some believe the "invisible hand" of the free market will provide economic stability and fairness. Others believe we will settle first our solar system, and then (eventually) other extra-solar planets. Still others believe a samurai sword is the best weapon against zombies, when every reasonable person knows the best weapon is very strong coffee, and a bastard sword that shoots lasers.

I'll step out on a limb here, and say that most of us here would just like people to behave rationally, to base actual important decisions on rational thought, rather than irrational desires or beliefs. The first step is simply realizing which of your beliefs and assumptions are rational, and which are not. Most of us here would be glad to help distinguish between them.

I think most of us have the same goal -- to see humanity succeed in a good way (for various definitions of "succeed" ). But we're not going to do that as long as theists insist on teaching religion in science class (intelligent design), or to hold back social equality for all (gay marriage, for instance), or supporting poor policy and bad policymakers (like the current US President, who got elected based on religious support, or Mike Huckabee, who only had religious support).

You rightly and correctly point out that there are good Christians, and bad Christians. Near as I can tell, there is very little practical difference between a good Christian and a good atheist. The difference between a bad Christian, however, is substantially different from a bad atheist. A bad Christian has a tool with which to suspend scepticism in his followers: the Bible. A bad atheist has no such ready-made tool.

In most cases where the leader of a terrible social movement was atheist, the leader exploited other conditions, such as national pride or a foundering economy. These are points where people irrationally set aside scepticism, as well -- "You can't talk bad about the President in a time of war," is a phrase I heard often for saying that Bush was killing our troops by taking them into a war based on lies; and in the case of a foundering economy, people are willing to do anything so they don't have to eat bowls of reconstituted mud yet again.

Anyway, I guess all I'm getting at is this: we have the same goals, you and I. Neither wishes to see humanity "fall," whatever that might mean. The difference is, I see religion has been an enabler of stupidity. I'm not saying that everyone who believes or has faith is stupid. I'm just saying, it's given a whole lot of people "comfort," but that comfort is blind and willfull ignorance.

As ignorance is a shackle to progress, I see that as a very bad thing.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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jman wrote:Why doesn't

jman wrote:
Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?
I really had to point out how obscene that question is.

Not only are atheists far more likely to let a believer be, many religions (notably Christianity and Islam) specifically disallow "belive and let believe" or specifically demand that thier followers do anything but "belive and let believe".

The well known atheist lawsuits in the US were measures to get the government to let them and thiers alone. School-led prayer and mandatory pledge of allegiance suits are perfect examples.

There is a subset of theists who deliberately misrepresent lawsuits such as those, along with things notable atheists say with the purpose of getting a far larger subset of theists to think they are the ones under attack. The insipid little idea of the "war on Christmas" is a perfect example of that. Another is Dawkins' idea that force-branding a child with a religion (i.e. "Muslim Child" ) is a form of child abuse and his statement that religion and a belief in god is a delusion were combined and spruced up into the lie that Dawkins thinks all theists are crazy child abusers and he wants all their children taken away from them.

Then there all sorts of laws both proposed and in place that are based on religious doctrine rather than a concern for governing: Sodomy laws, bans on selling sex toys, same-sex marriage, "blue" laws, abortion, etc.

So the question is really, why doesn't "belive and let not-believe" work for theists?

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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I could list reasons all day

I could list reasons all day I suppose, but here's just one more:  http://www.wkrg.com/news/article/praying_at_the_pump/13252/

Praying is a waste of time.  Praying is something that people do when they don't want to take responsibility for their own life, their own actions and their own situation and want to blame things on "it wasn't in the cards" or "god has a different plan" or whatever else that keeps poor and dumb people, poor and dumb.

Praying for lower gas prices?   You could be contributing toward the science that lets us use less of it.  You could be investing in the oil companies so that when gas prices go up, you make more money to offset what you're paying at the pump.   You could be out campaigning for alternate fuels or developing products that reduce our oil consumption.

No, let's talk to ourselves, wish upon a star that gas prices were lower, and then send out a press release to share this delusion with others.

Why is this scary? How many government officials do you suppose think prayer is the answer to something?  Do you suppose they're praying the national deficit down?  How's that working out for us?


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stuntgibbon wrote: How many

stuntgibbon wrote:
How many government officials do you suppose think prayer is the answer to something?

Apparently too many in the US, anyhow.  Remember that story about the governor of some drought ridden state having a pray-in for rain?

On topic- It's no trouble being Atheist for me.

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"Well the things that happen less often are more likely to be the result of the supper natural. A thing like loosing my keys in the morning is not likely supper natural, but finding a thousand dollars or meeting a celebrity might be."


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Jman, when was the last time

Jman, when was the last time some one tried to kill you for not believing in green irish midgets?

i mean Leprechauns

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jman wrote:Hey.I'm jman, 

jman wrote:

Hey.

I'm jman,  and this is my first post! Smiling

Welcome to the boards.

jman wrote:

All I really wanted to ask, mostly to the RRS, but also to all atheist activists everywhere, why are you going through all of the trouble to shoot down theism?

Because we have an inalienable right to express our own points of view. I don't consider what I do a personal attack on any particuliar religion however as an American I have a certain desire to help educate people that the beliefs they hold onto so dearly are suspect. When I was a born-again christian I never knew that the histrocity of jesus was even remotely questionable. I assumed that the evidence to support the christ was overwhelming. However, I have found out otherwise and suspect religions are just a big con on mankind. Next, religion is a personal choice and it has no place in the public sector. I don't want you knocking on my door on a Saturday morning selling me your god. I don't want my son forced to sit through prayer in a public school. I believe all people have a right to be together no matter what their sexual orientation. I believe that an atheist should not have to lie about their religious affiliation to be elected to a public office. There can be no discrimination of atheists adopting children over theist parents. This is why I fight the good fight.

jman wrote:

I'm sorry if this seems insultingly stupid, but here's my point. I don't believe in leprechauns. I also affirm my disbelief by living my life like I don't believe in leprechauns. Leprechauns do not change what, how, when, or where I do anything in my life. (Except that the movie might have given me a nightmare or two, but...anyway)

god that whole series of movies sucked ass

jman wrote:

I'd like to hear the reasons for the atheistic attack on theism. Why go through all of the trouble that it's costing you? Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?

I don't believe in Leprechauns, you don't believe in God. Why is there such a difference in the way that our unbelief effects our lives?

Being an atheist luckily hasn't cost me anything yet. I am extremely proud of being an atheist. I've even been told I know the bible pretty well, possibly even better than most christians. Anyways.......

I think the difference in the statement you've made using leprechauns as an example and religion is flawed. Most people I know that might believe in leprechauns do not live their lives according to the moral code of them. Religion plays a much bigger role in peoples' lives than a leprechaun or the tooth fairy. Besides we as atheists are the minority in most countries. Why is the larger segment of the population so afraid of the minority? I will tell you why in one example:

Religious ideas are responsible for attempting to push ID into public classrooms. Evolution is seen as an assualt on religion and Intelligent Design theory comes along only to buttress up the arguement for a god. IMHO evolution leaves much room for a creator. I don't not see any evidence to support the creator hypothesis however. I guess I would define this god as a deistic being rather than a personal god. The reason people support ID is not because evolution doesn't leave room for a god, it just doesn't leave room for their particuliar definition of god. 

Basically, if religion was something you practiced in privacy and without hurting anyone I would say, "good..... do it". However, religion as it is practiced in the US is not always a private matter. Too often it spills into the mainstream where it is not welcome by everyone.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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nigelTheBold wrote:I think

nigelTheBold wrote:

I think you'll find most of us here don't insist on absolute rationality. We all have irrational beliefs, every one of us. Some believe the "invisible hand" of the free market will provide economic stability and fairness. Others believe we will settle first our solar system, and then (eventually) other extra-solar planets. Still others believe a samurai sword is the best weapon against zombies, when every reasonable person knows the best weapon is very strong coffee, and a bastard sword that shoots lasers.

First, that's the greatest paragraph of all time. Second, where could I find this laser bastard sword? It is clearly the superior weapon! I won't feel safe against zombies until I acquire one!

 

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OK! I'm going to try to

OK! I'm going to try to reply to most of the posts here at once and then go back and touch on a few more specifically. It's hard to keep all of this in mind at once, so it might be a little sporadic, but hopefully you'll be able to tell if I'm replying to your post or not.

So my main question was why trouble yourselves about what you don't believe in, to which the satisfactory answer was, because religion is so influential and effects our every day lives so much that it is impossible to ignore. Is that basically right? And many examples of how it affects us were given. I agree, leprechauns don't affect my life very much (minus my favorite delicious breakfast cereal, and I had some really good laughs over some of the leprechaun comments here, haha!), whereas religion is something that people in this world have to deal with, sometimes whether they like it or not.

And by cost, I didn't mean an arm or a leg, I was just asking why something that you didn't believe in provoked any action all, to which I got the answer, thank you all.

A few of you were saying asking me why theists couldn't believe and let believe. As a Christian, I want to do what God wants me to do, and that is to tell people about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It would be hypocritical of me to call myself a Christian and then not tell people about Jesus. Atheists aren't commanded to tell the world about atheism, so I was just wondering why atheists got so passionate sometimes about tearing down the idea of a God. Or in another way, why do you care what other people believe? And again, this was answered by many of you. It affects you whether you want it to or not, so it has to be dealt with.

 

A lot of you talk about how religion has affected the world, and particularly in negative ways. But I don't think that religion is the real issue that needs to be dealt with in the world today. The underlying problem is, like nigelTheBold said, it's our human nature that corrupts anything that is good (paraphrase). Religion is a tool for some evil people to meet their own agendas, and if religion wasn't such a huge influence, it would be the next most influential thing. It's just that religion is so influential that it attracts the people with a greedy desire for power who want to exploit it. So the real problem is our own corrupt human nature. The question is, what can we do about that? And the Bible makes perfect sense on this point. It says that everyone is has a corrupt nature thanks to sin. Hence, death, disease, suffering, you name it.

Someone else was talking about ID. Are you opposed to ID completely, or only if ID points to God as the designer? Richard Dawkins said that ID is a possibility to the origin of life. Of course, he wasn't saying that God was the designer, though. He said it is possible that 'aliens' evolved and seeded life here on this planet. But then I would ask, if we can't evolve on our own, how could the 'aliens'? So what's wrong with intelligent design since it doesn't necessarily point to a deity as the designer?

 

I think that's enough for this post. But I did want to say thank you for the welcomes and for also letting me know that the posts on this site (for the most part I imagine) are not personal attacks. I appreciate it!

 

-jman

 

Oh, and Ewoks actually do exist. They're just in a galaxy far, far away is all.

 

 


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Maybe a difference that

Maybe a difference that might effect our goals is that I believe that mankind has already fallen beyond repair. I'm waiting on Jesus to come back and straighten things out. And you might say I'm wasting my time and hope on nothing, but what do I have to lose? If there really is no God and we just live and die, what have I lost? Nothing. Actually, I'd probably be doing what atheists try to do for mankind better than any atheist. I've read and heard atheists say that we are just here to further man kind and not destroy it like religion does. Well, if every one in the world lived the Biblical Christian lifestyle, if they lived like Jesus did, AIDS would be wiped off the face of the earth in a few, maybe four generations. There would be no murder, not theft, no greed, no deceit, etc. I'd be okay if I lived like that and then die, found out there was no God, or rather didn't find out anything since I just wouldn't exist anymore. I know that it could never happen and even if someone wanted to live like that they would still mess up, but all I'm saying is that Christianity isn't some destructive, terrible religion, but rather a lifestyle that actually takes the focus of of ourselves and puts it on other people. We're supposed to be loving others the way we love ourselves. It's not Christianity that's messed up, it's our corrupt natures. And Christians get such a bad name sometimes because of the abuse it gets from people who call themselves followers of Christ, but then totally live the opposite way.

I've heard it said by atheists before that the burden of proof doesn't lie on them, that it's God's and his follower's responsibility to prove that there is a God, and they don't have to prove that there is no God. But atheists are the ones with everything to lose, not theists.


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What's wrong with using the

What's wrong with using the Bible? Why can't it be judged just like any other historical document? I'm sure you've heard the arguments about how books and accounts about julius caesar and alexander the great were found to be written hundreds of years after their time, and books of the new testament were written less than one hundred years after Christ. I've even heard a good argument that the new testament was starting to be written down even as close as 20 years after Christ! Why doesn't the Bible have good credibility with that kind of resume?

Also, Christianity is more than just the soul. We're to attend to every kind of need that we see, yes the soul is the primary focus, since that's the only part of us that's eternal, but Christians are not suppose to overlook the needs of here and now. I know that you probably see a lot of Christians who don't act like it, but you can't judge Jesus by our poor behavior. You have to judge him for who he says he is, not by his followers who mess up constantly, and make a call yourself.

And as for suffering, the church does not believe in making other people suffer! Christ teaches that we who follow him will suffer because of our faith, and that if someone is willing to follow Christ, they had better know that true devotion to Jesus will include suffering, but we're not suppose to make others suffer. And it's not masochistic either. I sure don't like to suffer, but I wouldn't avoid it if it meant compromising my faith.


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Jesus philosophy includes

Jesus philosophy includes truth, but I need no Jesus Idol. I AM JESUS TOO,  ONE WITH the ALL .....   Is the Christ in you?  ... I hope so .... that was the message .... wasn't it ???   


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What do you you say about

What do you you say about someone like Anthony Flew going from atheism to deism? If such a predominant leader among atheists can be brained washed, who knows, maybe we could get you next, Sapient!     Smiling     Just joking!


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I hope I answered your cost

I hope I answered your cost question in that other of mine.

I wasn't saying that theists want to be left alone. I wouldn't be here posting like this if I wanted to be left alone.

I don't get all bent out of shape if someone believes different than me. I like hearing what other people believe. I makes me think critically about myself. I guess some people blow up because they have bad tempers or are just angry people, I don't know.


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I care about my family, my

I care about my family, my friends, my education, my girlfriend, my dog (yellow labs are the best!). I'm on my way to becoming a physician. I like helping and caring for people who are hurting. I value life and people because God created us and created man in His image, so people have intrinsic value to them. Jesus said that what we do to others we do to him. I can glorify my savior by helping other people.

Because there is a reason and purpose for life. I wasn't an accident and it's not meaningless.


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Yup, the saving message is

Yup,  the saving message is we are one .... our kids, our kind, is our purpose ..... It is what we are .... Jesus is ....  is Jesus not ? What is that? , that is us ..... we have history, we have science  ..... we have AWE ..... call it GAWED , now what ? A MASTER ?

   can ya grove ?  We have funky too    

Meters - Cissy Strut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYPTsPHXZUY

    no masters ..... all is god .... Obviously (btw)  .... as a buddha laughed .... nearly 3000 yrs ago (?) .....     Wow what a wise friend, and so Jesus said it again ..... how bout you? ..... hanging out on earth ..... ummm , wanna make shit up? ..... oh we do. Politics and religion on planet earth ..... check it out 

   


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Hi j-man,As far as the bible

Hi j-man,

As far as the bible goes, it is not a historical text as such. I regard it as a work of fiction, no different to the Koran, whatever book the Jehovahs use (can't remember at the moment) or any other religious text from the miriad of other religions. Look at some of Rook's work to see some of the problems.

Ol' Anthony Flew. That was all a bit of a con and another example of christian dishonesty (anything to convert souls, right?). I believe it was Kelly who wrote about it a while ago.

ID, Dawkins and aliens. This is just off the top of my head, but I believe the point was that even if you said vastly technologically advanced aliens were capable of seeding earth with life and acting as designers, they still had to come from somewhere, and wherever they came from they would have to have evolved. If we had to have a creator, then who created the creator?

I wouldn't call life accidental, no chemical reaction is accidental. If you have the right ingredients under the right conditions the reaction will happen. Just because there is no reason or purpose bestowed on us by a god does not mean that life is purposeless or meaningless. We create our own meaning and purpose, it sounds like mine is similar to yours but without the god. Do you really think if there is a creature as powerful and amazing as god he specifically needs people to love him?

Suffering... I'm not saying that you have to suffer. But it is the Catholic Churches position that if people are born into suffering, then it is God's will. All they have to do is worry about the soul.

Mankind fallen beyond repair... I would disagree. If you look at history mankind is no worse now than it has ever been. There is a slow change coming (which is being countered by religion, as well as greed etc) to look at the world as a whole and try to improve things for everyone. We are only at the beginning, there is a long way to go and it will take a long time, but I think an increase in the quality of life is very slowly starting to spread. We will get there one day (as long as we are not destroyed by religion or flooded out by global warming) Smiling

the problem with your christian lifestyle is that so few christians follow it. You chose to read only the lovey bits of the bible and live according to it and that is fine (still not for me, I would rather adopt a similar lifestyle without the delusion). But you are in the minority. You should talk to some of the people here who have suffered because of the psychological and emotional abuse of the christian lifestyle. There has never been a time under christian rule (even in small communities) where people live the christian lifestyle that you propose.

 

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Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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Oh, and ridgebacks are the

Oh, and ridgebacks are the greatest dogs!  Smiling

 


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jman, I kinda like you. You

jman, I kinda like you. You remind me of myself a few years ago,and you've been nice and polite.So let's carry on

jman wrote:

Maybe a difference that might effect our goals is that I believe that mankind has already fallen beyond repair. I'm waiting on Jesus to come back and straighten things out.

Don't you think that's a pretty defeatist attitude?Imagine if tommorow everyone just said'ah bugger this' and refused to do anything more to help humanity. Doctors would watch people die, parents let their children starve. This is another reason religion's dangerous. It teaches people to rely on something else to solve all their problems.

 

jman wrote:
And you might say I'm wasting my time and hope on nothing, but what do I have to lose? If there really is no God and we just live and die, what have I lost? Nothing.

This is called Pascal's Wager.It sucks.

Pascal’s Wager

Premises: You have everything to gain by believing, and everything to lose by not. So why not believe?/What if you’re wrong?

 

Problem: What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god? Pascal never indicated which god we should believe in. With thousands of them out there, they chances are choosing the right one are slim. If you are a christian and allah is the right choice, you’re going to have a small problem after death. Isn’t it more logical to choose none? It also assumes that god isn’t going to mind you just believing because you don’t want to go to hell, and doesn’t want true followers.

 

 

Pascal’s Wager

Premises: You have everything to gain by believing, and everything to lose by not. So why not believe?/What if you’re wrong?

 

Problem: What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god? Pascal never indicated which god we should believe in. With thousands of them out there, they chances are choosing the right one are slim. If you are a christian and allah is the right choice, you’re going to have a small problem after death. Isn’t it more logical to choose none? It also assumes that god isn’t going to mind you just believing because you don’t want to go to hell, and doesn’t want true followers.

 

Actually, I'd probably be doing what atheists try to do for mankind better than any atheist. I've read and heard atheists say that we are just here to further man kind and not destroy it like religion does. Well, if every one in the world lived the Biblical Christian lifestyle, if they lived like Jesus did, AIDS would be wiped off the face of the earth in a few, maybe four generations. There would be no murder, not theft, no greed, no deceit, etc.

You mean if everyone lived by the bible of this?

Killing innocent babies-Exodus 12:29

You must kill your child if they disobey you-Exodus 21:15

Beat your slave, just make sure he doesn’t die! Exodus 21:20-21

They complete destruction of peoples, including infants, women, and animals. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

Giving your daughter away to her cousin in payment for his killing someone. Joshua 15:16-17

Condones child sacrifice. Judges 11:29-40

Sell your clothes to buy swords. Luke 22:36

Do not think a completely christian world would be any less 'immoral'

ess than 1% of America’s prison population is atheist. (http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html ) Even if those numbers are skewed, there are still a lot more christians than atheists in prison. Obviously, there are a lot more christians than atheists in every facet of American life, but should there be any in prison in the first place if they have the moral high ground?

The buckle of the Bible Belt has extremely high levels of teen pregnancy, (http://www.physorg.com/news104658683.html )violence,( Louisiana has the highest churchgoing rate in the country, but its murder rate is more than twice the national average) and religious intolerance . Why if christians are so much better?

jman wrote:
I've heard it said by atheists before that the burden of proof doesn't lie on them, that it's God's and his follower's responsibility to prove that there is a God, and they don't have to prove that there is no God. But atheists are the ones with everything to lose, not theists.

Again,Pascal's Wager. What if allah's the true god?Then you lose everything too.

jman wrote:

What's wrong with using the Bible? Why can't it be judged just like any other historical document? I'm sure you've heard the arguments about how books and accounts about julius caesar and alexander the great were found to be written hundreds of years after their time, and books of the new testament were written less than one hundred years after Christ. I've even heard a good argument that the new testament was starting to be written down even as close as 20 years after Christ! Why doesn't the Bible have good credibility with that kind of resume?

Well,I'm no expert on this field.Basically, there's no evidence that the bible is anythign but fiction.Ceaser etc have many writings on them from various writers at the time(I'm assuming) however jesus isn't mentioned in any contempoary works outside the bible. Imagine that. A man walks on water and raises the dead, and no one bothers to write about it?

jman wrote:
I know that you probably see a lot of Christians who don't act like it, but you can't judge Jesus by our poor behavior. You have to judge him for who he says he is, not by his followers who mess up constantly, and make a call yourself.

You will never find a christian who lives as they are supposed to.Because it it just too silly. They believe the bits they like and that comfort them.You say you're going to be a doctor? Well according to jesus you should leave all you family, money, and education and travel the world spreading the gospel.

jman wrote:
What do you you say about someone like Anthony Flew going from atheism to deism?

What do you say about Dan Barker going from christian to atheist? You could be next! I'm pretty sure less atheists go to xtianity that xtians to atheism anyway.

jman wrote:
my dog (yellow labs are the best!).

I'm a cat person.They're more atheist

jman wrote:

I like helping and caring for people who are hurting

Why? God made them like that.Why do you feel the need to improve on he created them?Just now you said you had given up on the world.Now you want to help it?

jman wrote:
Because there is a reason and purpose for life. I wasn't an accident and it's not meaningless.

Absolutely right. There is a reason and purpose.You have to find it for yourself. Find a purpose you enjoy and a reason to do it. One that makes you feel good about yourself, witthout having to attribute everything you do to a god who created you so you could die. Life is not meaningless at all to me. It's a priveleged chance to expericence the ultimate. The fact there's no god and afterlife makes me want to enjoy it all the more and make the differences I can.I don't mourn that I will become nothing, but just enjoy what I have. We aren't an accident either. We are the culmination of billions of years of intense natural selection and survival. Doesn't that make you feel more humble than 'goddit' ?

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jman wrote:What's wrong with

jman wrote:
What's wrong with using the Bible? Why can't it be judged just like any other historical document?

Check out Rook's work on that. He's judging it like any other historical document. To sum up, it reads more like literature than history.

jman wrote:
I'm sure you've heard the arguments about how books and accounts about julius caesar and alexander the great were found to be written hundreds of years after their time, and books of the new testament were written less than one hundred years after Christ. I've even heard a good argument that the new testament was starting to be written down even as close as 20 years after Christ! Why doesn't the Bible have good credibility with that kind of resume?

The Bible really doesn't have that good of a resume compared to Julius Caesar and Alexander. There are physical things from both their ruling periods that indicate a living, breathing human being. Despite the fact that there's a paucity of Roman material remaining from the classical period, the evidence for Julius is undeniable. In the case of Jesus, you have one very literary book, and three secondary accounts of people who worship Jesus, not accounts of the man himself.

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jman wrote:A few of you were

jman wrote:
A few of you were saying asking me why theists couldn't believe and let believe. As a Christian, I want to do what God wants me to do, and that is to tell people about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It would be hypocritical of me to call myself a Christian and then not tell people about Jesus. Atheists aren't commanded to tell the world about atheism, so I was just wondering why atheists got so passionate sometimes about tearing down the idea of a God. Or in another way, why do you care what other people believe? And again, this was answered by many of you. It affects you whether you want it to or not, so it has to be dealt with.

This is actually the heart of the problem. There would be no "rational response" if there was no "irrational assertion". Because it's built into Christianity to spread the word, we end up tackling Christianity because of what God wants you to do. See, here I have to ask if you know what God wants you to do because he told you, or someone else told you that God said that.

jman wrote:
Someone else was talking about ID. Are you opposed to ID completely, or only if ID points to God as the designer? Richard Dawkins said that ID is a possibility to the origin of life. Of course, he wasn't saying that God was the designer, though. He said it is possible that 'aliens' evolved and seeded life here on this planet. But then I would ask, if we can't evolve on our own, how could the 'aliens'? So what's wrong with intelligent design since it doesn't necessarily point to a deity as the designer?

Not to speak for everyone, but ID isn't science. Many of us here are really big fans of science, and ID is being proposed as equivalent to evolution, which it is not. It's not the "other side of the story", it's not even close. ID actually does point to a deity as the designer. There's no ID without a deity.

The thing with the origin of life is that it's speculation. Scientists are trying out lots of hypotheses, but because none have been proven absolutely more viable than the others (with many that have fallen off the "viable" list). So when Richard Dawkins says "oh, aliens could have done it", it's because there are many possibilities, and when there are that many possibilities, even outlandish ones are equally probable. However, ID takes the extra step of trying to be competition for evolution, which it is not. Abiogenesis and evolution are related, but very different topics. Evolution is observed all the time, but not so with abiogenesis.

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jman wrote:I care about my

jman wrote:

I care about my family, my friends, my education, my girlfriend, my dog (yellow labs are the best!). I'm on my way to becoming a physician. I like helping and caring for people who are hurting. I value life and people because God created us and created man in His image, so people have intrinsic value to them. Jesus said that what we do to others we do to him. I can glorify my savior by helping other people.

Because there is a reason and purpose for life. I wasn't an accident and it's not meaningless.

As I said before, we have similar goals, and lead similar lives. I have a chocolate lab (she's the best dog ever), and a Boykin spanial (the second-best dog ever). Does your yellow live to fetch things?

I value life and the lives of others because I think we are generally good. I think most folks are truly honest, and loyal, and possess most of the virtues we value. I believe we are also stupid and naive, and will probably end up destroying ourselves, but that has nothing to do with our general goodness. It's like watching a favorite brother self-destruct.

Question:

Why is God more valuable than people?

Let me rephrase that.

When I help people, I try to help those who don't have as much as me. I'm very fortunate to live in a time and economic strata that allows me to pursue the one thing I love to do: program computers. There are many who aren't as fortunate. Their jobs (if they can get them) suck, and pay hardly anything. I don't do a whole lot to help directly, though my work is on a project to bring communications infrastructure to a developing nation. (I chose my job specifically because it was 1. fun and b. helping people with less than me, and iii. vaguely space-related).

I do this because they are people, and I think everyone deserves a shot at happiness. It's not much, but it's what I have. I do this not because of a God, or to glorify Him or His holy Offspring, but because I think people are valuable. That's another of my irrational beliefs.

The question, in this context is, why does God need glory? Why would He wish us to do good to people in His name, rather than just doing good to people because He loves us? When I help my brothers and sisters out (which doesn't happen much now that we're all grown up with kids of our own), I don't do it in my dad's name, though it gives him happiness and satisfaction. I do it because I love my brothers and sisters.

I submit that doing things for God's glory is really doing things for your glory with God. People who try to glorify God always seem to do so publicly, so others know they are glorifying God. It's like me helping my siblings out just for Dad's approval. How is that more honorable and more moral than those who help quietly, in the name of shared humanity, without bringing greater glory to God?

I apologize if these are naive questions. I've never believed in God, so the relationship with Him is completely foreign to me, so these sorts of questions have always intrigued me.

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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jman wrote:Maybe a

jman wrote:
Maybe a difference that might effect our goals is that I believe that mankind has already fallen beyond repair. I'm waiting on Jesus to come back and straighten things out.

That's scary if you're anywhere near nuclear weapons.

jman wrote:
If there really is no God and we just live and die, what have I lost? Nothing. Actually, I'd probably be doing what atheists try to do for mankind better than any atheist.

You might want to meet a few of us before being the best atheist. Not that I don't think you could win the title of best atheist, but there are a lot of Margaret Downey fans out there.

jman wrote:
I've read and heard atheists say that we are just here to further man kind and not destroy it like religion does. Well, if every one in the world lived the Biblical Christian lifestyle, if they lived like Jesus did, AIDS would be wiped off the face of the earth in a few, maybe four generations. There would be no murder, not theft, no greed, no deceit, etc.

Well, from your perspective, didn't Jesus already try to instill his lifestyle? I mean, from mine, he's a charater in a book, obviously, but to you, didn't he already wipe away the sins of the world? And didn't the sins come back? So ... 

jman wrote:
It's not Christianity that's messed up, it's our corrupt natures. And Christians get such a bad name sometimes because of the abuse it gets from people who call themselves followers of Christ, but then totally live the opposite way.

We're human. I'm guessing you believe that we have a corrupt nature because your idea of "corrupt" comes from largely Christian sources. You're not corrupt. Yes, we do horrible things to each other. But to discount all of us because there are a minority who are terrible just seems pessimistic, and not necessary.

jman wrote:
I've heard it said by atheists before that the burden of proof doesn't lie on them, that it's God's and his follower's responsibility to prove that there is a God, and they don't have to prove that there is no God. But atheists are the ones with everything to lose, not theists.

Our odds are about the same. Especially if you picked the wrong god.

 

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fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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jman wrote:I like hearing

jman wrote:

I like hearing what other people believe. I makes me think critically about myself.

I wish more people thought like this. If you wish to spread an idea, this idea is far more valuable to humanity than Christianity, IMNSHO.

 

"Yes, I seriously believe that consciousness is a product of a natural process. I find that the neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers who proceed from that premise are the ones who are actually making useful contributions to our understanding of the mind." - PZ Myers


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jman wrote:It's not


jman wrote:
It's not Christianity that's messed up, it's our corrupt natures. And Christians get such a bad name sometimes because of the abuse it gets from people who call themselves followers of Christ, but then totally live the opposite way.

 

Can you really blame thousands for not doing it right if they all use the same product? If one or two represented christianity badly, you could chalk it up to the individual. But when ,in my opinion, the majority of christians give it a bad name, maybe the product is at fault.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jman wrote:Someone else was

jman wrote:
Someone else was talking about ID. Are you opposed to ID completely, or only if ID points to God as the designer? Richard Dawkins said that ID is a possibility to the origin of life. Of course, he wasn't saying that God was the designer, though. He said it is possible that 'aliens' evolved and seeded life here on this planet. But then I would ask, if we can't evolve on our own, how could the 'aliens'? So what's wrong with intelligent design since it doesn't necessarily point to a deity as the designer?
"ID" is resisted not because of the idea of a designer, but because it's not science.

Science is the act of:

  1. Observing facts.
  2. Coming to conclusions based on those facts.
  3. Testing those conclusions.
  4. Changing the conclusions if they don't work.

What "Intelligent Design" does:

  1. Decide on what conclusion to come to.
  2. Seek facts that support that conclusion.
  3. Ignore facts that do not.

And you're not quite getting what Dawkins was saying. We know how life evolved, the theory of evolution by natural selection is very solid. 150 years of fine-tuning make it so. But, we're still quite ignorant about how life started (something that the theory of evolution does not deal with), so we could put whatever we wanted there to "explain" it. All hypothesys are equal when you don't know anything about the subject, equally worthless.

On that, I think it's interesting that you would ask "if we can't evolve on our own, how could the 'aliens'?" then ask "So what's wrong with the idea of a designer?" - You answered your own question =^_^=

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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Atheism is much less trouble

Atheism is much less trouble than zombies...


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jman wrote:Well, if every

jman wrote:

Well, if every one in the world lived the Biblical Christian lifestyle, if they lived like Jesus did, AIDS would be wiped off the face of the earth in a few, maybe four generations.

Actually, funny thing about that... if pharma-tech companies stopped sending aids drugs to africa, a great many problems would be solved in 4 generations... ha! funny, sad, sadistic, and true!

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jman wrote:I care about my

jman wrote:

I care about my family, my friends, my education, my girlfriend, my dog (yellow labs are the best!). I'm on my way to becoming a physician. I like helping and caring for people who are hurting. I value life and people because God created us and created man in His image, so people have intrinsic value to them. Jesus said that what we do to others we do to him. I can glorify my savior by helping other people.

I would have ended your third and fourth sentence after the word "people", and stopped the paragraph there.  I don't need a reason to value life and people; to me, it's axiomatic.

As a side comment, so much of theism seems to be about giving believers a way to control others.  I mean, if you think your god wants you to believe certain things, why get your knickers in a twist about what others believe?  Isn't that their business?

Quote:

Because there is a reason and purpose for life. I wasn't an accident and it's not meaningless.

So is it safe to say one of the reasons you believe is because you like the way it makes you feel, or like what it implies?

I know I'm a bit late to this party, but I think your question is skewed.  Atheists aren't "troubling" themselves over theism; theism causes trouble for itself by making claims it can't substantiate.  Sometimes, atheists point this out.  Unfortunately, telling theists what they believe is either unsupported or demonstrably wrong generally makes the theist feel "attacked" because believing without evidence in their world is the right thing to do, and questioning the status quo is not.

You've explained that Christians don't "believe and let believe" because they're commanded not to by their god, so it seems that you want this to be a one way street where believers are allowed to proselytize, but nonbelievers shouldn't point out the inherent wackiness in theistic beliefs (or maybe we ARE, as long as it's about a religion not your own).  Why do Christians deserve special treatment?

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maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.


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Jman you seem to be on the

Jman you seem to be on the cusp of being able to think critically(with regard to religion, not just everything else), and will take evidence into account that is heavily substantiated. That is the most important thing, IMO, for people to do. The only problem with that is that if you actually do look into the questions you ask, and objectively gauge the answers given, then you will very likely be convinced of a materialist worldview that doesn't necessitate a God to function or a soul to exist in order to live full and purposeful lives. You seem smart and well meaning, without delving into the whole, "I feel sorry for you because you deny God or I'll pray for you" line of reasoning. If you follow the path you are on, you could very well raise your consciousness and expand your worldview in a very profound way. I'm not saying atheism, science, or logic hold all of life's answers or purpose, but they stay true to reality, and are objectively honest. Keep asking questions man, and really try to base the conclusions on empirical facts and answers derived from critical thinking. Good luck.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Hey, I know I'm probably

Hey, I know I'm probably asking questions that you've probably heard over and over again, like pascals wager maybe, but thanks for your patience and willingness to answer me anyway. This is the first time that I've really ever asked questions like these to atheists before myself, I've heard about other people and what other peoples' responses were, but I'd like to ask and hear for myself. And just as a warning, I might possibly ask some other overdone questions in the future, so thanks in advance for revisiting them for me! Smiling

 

"Ol' Anthony Flew. That was all a bit of a con and another example of christian dishonesty (anything to convert souls, right?). I believe it was Kelly who wrote about it a while ago."

A con? I'll have to check that out. Where can I find Kelly's post about that?

 

"If we had to have a creator, then who created the creator?"

You know, if the God of the Bible is true, the He is the first mover that set things in motion, who did not need to be moved in the first place. He would be eternal, who always did exist and who always will. The universe can't be eternal because everything that we know about the natural laws that govern it tell us that life, under those laws, which God, if the God of the Bible is true, would not be subject to - He would be the creator of those laws, cannot come from non-life. The universe had to have been created. If you see something moving, something had to have set it into motion, and if you follow that trail of thought back far enough, God has to be there as the initial mover.

 

"Do you really think if there is a creature as powerful and amazing as god he specifically needs people to love him?"

No, God doesn't need us to love Him at all, but although it is not necessary, it is still a good thing. God is a good God, and he also declared His creation to be good, so it is a good that we are here and loving God. He doesn't need it, but it is a good thing none the less.

 

"(as long as we are not destroyed by religion or flooded out by global warming) Smiling"

God promised that He wouldn't destroy the earth by a flood again, so I wouldn't worry about it.