Atheism - is it worth all the trouble? [Kill Em With Kindness]

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Atheism - is it worth all the trouble? [Kill Em With Kindness]

Hey.

I'm jman,  and this is my first post! Smiling

All I really wanted to ask, mostly to the RRS, but also to all atheist activists everywhere, why are you going through all of the trouble to shoot down theism?

I'm sorry if this seems insultingly stupid, but here's my point. I don't believe in leprechauns. I also affirm my disbelief by living my life like I don't believe in leprechauns. Leprechauns do not change what, how, when, or where I do anything in my life. (Except that the movie might have given me a nightmare or two, but...anyway) I just went about life without wasting any time or thought on those silly made up creatures that didn't exist. I wasn't motivated to pick up my pen and start to crank out books - Leprechauns are Not Great, The Leprechaun Puzzle, The Leprechaun Delusion, The Leprechaun Who Wasn't There - or go on tours debating with everyone I could find (granted, probably not many, but this is for arguments sake) who believes in Leprechauns. My unbelief has not lead me to go on a crusade to tear down Leprechaunology. In fact, it hasn't effected me at all.

I'd like to hear the reasons for the atheistic attack on theism. Why go through all of the trouble that it's costing you? Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?

I don't believe in Leprechauns, you don't believe in God. Why is there such a difference in the way that our unbelief effects our lives?

 


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jman wrote:Hey, I know I'm

jman wrote:

Hey, I know I'm probably asking questions that you've probably heard over and over again, like pascals wager maybe, but thanks for your patience and willingness to answer me anyway. This is the first time that I've really ever asked questions like these to atheists before myself, I've heard about other people and what other peoples' responses were, but I'd like to ask and hear for myself. And just as a warning, I might possibly ask some other overdone questions in the future, so thanks in advance for revisiting them for me! Smiling

hay, it's a pleasure. Ya we hear it alot, but guess what. I was once,not so long ago, in your position.I had never asked a atheist anything, and these would have been among what I asked. As long as your polite and willing to listen, we'll be happy to answer.It's nice to get christians like you.

 

 

 

jman wrote:
"If we had to have a creator, then who created the creator?"

You know, if the God of the Bible is true, the He is the first mover that set things in motion, who did not need to be moved in the first place. He would be eternal, who always did exist and who always will. The universe can't be eternal because everything that we know about the natural laws that govern it tell us that life, under those laws, which God, if the God of the Bible is true, would not be subject to - He would be the creator of those laws, cannot come from non-life. The universe had to have been created. If you see something moving, something had to have set it into motion, and if you follow that trail of thought back far enough, God has to be there as the initial mover.

Infinite regressions a killer isn't it. Basicially, you have two choices. Everything needs a creator, or it doesn't. If you start with special pleading, it's gonna go downhill.

 

This boils down to everything created needs a creator. The thing here is, who created god?

If nothing, then everything, including the world, does not need a creator. There is no reason to believe creationism.

If something, then god is not the universe’s creator. There is no reason to believe creationism.

 

jman wrote:
God promised that He wouldn't destroy the earth by a flood again, so I wouldn't worry about it.

maybe not, but I'd worry about him destroying the earth at armageddon.

You might like to read this thread I made for people like you.

http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/13173#new

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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FLew

http://www.rationalresponders.com/antony_flew

flew

I would google search these topics for things that already have been covered here Jman, here are a few snippets I found. The google search button is in the top left hand corner.

 

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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Loc wrote:Don't you think

Loc wrote:
Don't you think that's a pretty defeatist attitude?Imagine if tommorow everyone just said'ah bugger this' and refused to do anything more to help humanity. Doctors would watch people die, parents let their children starve. This is another reason religion's dangerous. It teaches people to rely on something else to solve all their problems.

I don't feel defeated, and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should just give up on life and watch people die and the like. I just really don't think that man kind is heading down a path for the better. Plus, I was basically referring to how we as an entire race have turned away from our Creator and that we cannot reconcile ourselves to Him. We needed someone to do that for us, and that was the ministry of Jesus the Christ.

Loc wrote:
What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god?

Have you ever debated a Muslim by any chance? I haven't personally, but I know people that have, and just from the few debates the I do know about between a Christian and a Muslim, the Islamic theology comes across as very weak to me. It's been said that Christianity is the only major religion with any real apologetics to is name.

Loc wrote:
Even if those numbers are skewed, there are still a lot more christians than atheists in prison. Obviously, there are a lot more christians than atheists in every facet of American life, but should there be any in prison in the first place if they have the moral high ground?

Like I've said before, there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who in truth are not. I'm sure that there are some how genuinely believe that they are, but the Bible tells us to look at the work or fruits being produced by that person. Just like one can deem a tree good or bad by the fruit that's being produced, so we can deem a person as a follower of Christ, or otherwise. I'm not saying that anyone who goes to jail cannot possibly be a Christian. Everyone messes up, but we are judged by our works. Also, I know that prison ministry is a big ministry for Christians. I'm sure that there are a lot of inmates who have decided to follow Christ after they were already in prison.

Loc wrote:
Well,I'm no expert on this field.Basically, there's no evidence that the bible is anythign but fiction.Ceaser etc have many writings on them from various writers at the time(I'm assuming) however jesus isn't mentioned in any contempoary works outside the bible. Imagine that. A man walks on water and raises the dead, and no one bothers to write about it?

I'm no expert either, but I do know a little bit. Like that in that culture, most of history was passed on by oral tradition. It's really hard for us to relate to that, but history and important events were passed on orally for a long time before historians really started taking down good accounts. And I've not done the research myself, but I've read about it by people who have and it's said that there actually are more written accounts of Jesus than just the Bible.

Loc wrote:
You will never find a christian who lives as they are supposed to.Because it it just too silly. They believe the bits they like and that comfort them.You say you're going to be a doctor? Well according to jesus you should leave all you family, money, and education and travel the world spreading the gospel.

Hell doesn't comfort me. It's not a comforting thought that I have family and friends that will go to hell when they die. Being called to be willing to die for my faith doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy inside. I've heard of a lot of Christians that have been murdered in gruesome ways because they wouldn't denounce their faith. I don't want a nail hammered into my head, or to watch my friends be cut to pieces slowly and carefully knowing that I'd be next. No, that's not comforting to me...but it doesn't change what I know is true. Oh, and actually, I'm pursuing a career in medicine to use it as a platform to bring the gospel to the world. I really want to be a full time medical missionary. I want to meet the physical needs of the people I'd be caring for, but then I'd also get to show them how Jesus can meet their spiritual needs.

Loc wrote:
Why? God made them like that.Why do you feel the need to improve on he created them?Just now you said you had given up on the world.Now you want to help it?

I think you have the wrong idea about God, because old and new testament is full of commands to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, to take care of the orphans and the widows. God doesn't want us to leave the people He created in the mess that sin has gotten them into.

 

And by the way, I was nearly close to finishing typing this when I hit backspace not knowing that I had clicked out of the text box and I lost everything. I had to retype this all over again, and it definitely wasn't the exact same as I had it before. It was really frustrating! AHH! Ok...I'm good now. Smiling


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HisWIllness wrote: See, here

HisWIllness wrote:
See, here I have to ask if you know what God wants you to do because he told you, or someone else told you that God said that.

I look to the Bible to find what God's will is, so I guess a lot of it comes down to the credibility of the Bible. Ok, I will try to go through some of Rook's stuff. It's just that it's so much stuff all at once! It's hard to want to sit down and just go through it all, especially since I've already glanced over it and spotted mistakes. But I will look into it more.


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jman wrote: I don't feel

jman wrote:

 

I don't feel defeated, and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should just give up on life and watch people die and the like. I just really don't think that man kind is heading down a path for the better. Plus, I was basically referring to how we as an entire race have turned away from our Creator and that we cannot reconcile ourselves to Him. We needed someone to do that for us, and that was the ministry of Jesus the Christ.

Well that's a bit of a tough one since you have to accept the creator bit.Why do you say the entire race has turned from god when christianity is still the dominant religion?


jman wrote:
Have you ever debated a Muslim by any chance? I haven't personally, but I know people that have, and just from the few debates the I do know about between a Christian and a Muslim, the Islamic theology comes across as very weak to me. It's been said that Christianity is the only major religion with any real apologetics to is name.

I haven't, but I hate to break it to, christianity isn't renowned for coming up with original arguements.However, I was just using allah as an example. You can insert FSM, zeus, anyone of the thousands of gods.

I wouldn't be too proud of those christian apologetics I've yet to see them convince anyone that's actually put some thought into it, at least around here.

jman wrote:

Like I've said before, there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who in truth are not. I'm sure that there are some how genuinely believe that they are, but the Bible tells us to look at the work or fruits being produced by that person. Just like one can deem a tree good or bad by the fruit that's being produced, so we can deem a person as a follower of Christ, or otherwise. I'm not saying that anyone who goes to jail cannot possibly be a Christian. Everyone messes up, but we are judged by our works. Also, I know that prison ministry is a big ministry for Christians. I'm sure that there are a lot of inmates who have decided to follow Christ after they were already in prison.

No True Scotsman fallacy, and like I said before-when so many are misrepreseting it, you should look at the source for problems.Not the individuals.

I'm aware that many become christian in prison. Though that's largely for parole purposes. However, I'm just saying that christians make it sound like only they can have morals, which they don't seem to anyway.

 

jman wrote:
I'm no expert either, but I do know a little bit. Like that in that culture, most of history was passed on by oral tradition. It's really hard for us to relate to that, but history and important events were passed on orally for a long time before historians really started taking down good accounts. And I've not done the research myself, but I've read about it by people who have and it's said that there actually are more written accounts of Jesus than just the Bible.

Unless I'm really mistaken, I think the Roman empire would have been pretty good at record keeping. I can't imagine the most powerful force on earth relying on oral tradition. Yet still, no one wrote anything.

 

 

jman wrote:
Hell doesn't comfort me. It's not a comforting thought that I have family and friends that will go to hell when they die. Being called to be willing to die for my faith doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy inside. I've heard of a lot of Christians that have been murdered in gruesome ways because they wouldn't denounce their faith. I don't want a nail hammered into my head, or to watch my friends be cut to pieces slowly and carefully knowing that I'd be next. No, that's not comforting to me...but it doesn't change what I know is true. Oh, and actually, I'm pursuing a career in medicine to use it as a platform to bring the gospel to the world. I really want to be a full time medical missionary. I want to meet the physical needs of the people I'd be caring for, but then I'd also get to show them how Jesus can meet their spiritual needs.

You almost get me mad here. You are standing on the cusp of realization, you just need to look properly.I know exactly what you mean,I used to fear hell alot. Now, if this isn't comforting and just produces guilt and fear, doesn't sound too loving does it? Are you believing out of fear or love?

If you really want to be a medical missionary, you should just heal people with prayer. Doesn't jesus say whatever you ask for his name will be given? He's hardly going to deny you the oppurtunity to preach and heal. So is he lying or what?

 

 

jman wrote:
I think you have the wrong idea about God, because old and new testament is full of commands to help the poor, feed the hungry, heal the sick, to take care of the orphans and the widows. God doesn't want us to leave the people He created in the mess that sin has gotten them into.

It's also full of commands to kill the nonbeliever, abandon your family, commit genocide, and other loving things. Some good doesn't negate the bad. So, um, who created the sin that got these people into the mess? Who could wipe sin from existence and make things perfect again? Who sits by and allows the suffering for something Adam did?

 

 

jman wrote:
And by the way, I was nearly close to finishing typing this when I hit backspace not knowing that I had clicked out of the text box and I lost everything. I had to retype this all over again, and it definitely wasn't the exact same as I had it before. It was really frustrating! AHH! Ok...I'm good now. Smiling

Haha-I can't tell you how many time I've lost stuff I've written just before posting. Glad you did it again, appreciate the effort.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jman wrote:I don't feel

jman wrote:

I don't feel defeated, and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should just give up on life and watch people die and the like. I just really don't think that man kind is heading down a path for the better. Plus, I was basically referring to how we as an entire race have turned away from our Creator and that we cannot reconcile ourselves to Him. We needed someone to do that for us, and that was the ministry of Jesus the Christ.

Well it's been 2,000 years since jesus supposedly did his thing, and in your own words, mankind isn't "heading down a path for the better".  It would appear jesus' ministry was a colossal failure.

jman wrote:

Loc wrote:
What if you’re wrong and allah is the true god?

Have you ever debated a Muslim by any chance? I haven't personally, but I know people that have, and just from the few debates the I do know about between a Christian and a Muslim, the Islamic theology comes across as very weak to me.

Several muslim's I've spoken to find christian theology as weak.  I find them both weak.  Logic is a funny thing, isn't it.

I actually have debated muslims, both when I was a christian, and now as an atheist.  I do better as an atheist.

jman wrote:
It's been said that Christianity is the only major religion with any real apologetics to is name.

Yes, but still...what if you’re wrong and allah is the true god?

jman wrote:

Like I've said before, there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who in truth are not.

Yes, a lot of people.    All of them, actually.  Noone knows what a true christian is.

jman wrote:

And by the way, I was nearly close to finishing typing this when I hit backspace not knowing that I had clicked out of the text box and I lost everything. I had to retype this all over again, and it definitely wasn't the exact same as I had it before. It was really frustrating! AHH! Ok...I'm good now. Smiling

Yes, all it takes is a simple human error.  I certainly hope none of the gospel writers made any mistakes and had to write anything over again -- because it definitely wouldn't be the same as before.  And that would be really frustrating.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
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nigelTheBold wrote:The

nigelTheBold wrote:
The question, in this context is, why does God need glory? Why would He wish us to do good to people in His name, rather than just doing good to people because He loves us? When I help my brothers and sisters out (which doesn't happen much now that we're all grown up with kids of our own), I don't do it in my dad's name, though it gives him happiness and satisfaction. I do it because I love my brothers and sisters.

I think that it's not one or the other, but both. He wants us to do good to others because He loves us, but it also glorifies His name because He is Love. And we are all created in the image of God, and Jesus said that if we show love to someone, we are showing love to Him. And I think that anytime we demonstrate an aspect of God to another person it gives God glory. But like you, I love my sister because I love her, but it also gives God glory.

nigelTheBold wrote:
I submit that doing things for God's glory is really doing things for your glory with God. People who try to glorify God always seem to do so publicly, so others know they are glorifying God. It's like me helping my siblings out just for Dad's approval. How is that more honorable and more moral than those who help quietly, in the name of shared humanity, without bringing greater glory to God?

People with that mindset totally have it all wrong. It's not more honorable or more moral. It's not what Jesus taught his followers to do, but it is tempting to want to take glory for ourselves. I have to be careful when I do things publicly.

And these are good questions by the way...I hope I gave you good answers!


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jman wrote:I don't feel

jman wrote:

I don't feel defeated, and I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone should just give up on life and watch people die and the like. I just really don't think that man kind is heading down a path for the better. Plus, I was basically referring to how we as an entire race have turned away from our Creator and that we cannot reconcile ourselves to Him. We needed someone to do that for us, and that was the ministry of Jesus the Christ.

This is a neglectful position...you don't think humanity is on a good path because we have turned away from our creator because he can no longer be reconciled with reality. JC's story was created 2000 years ago. Mankind has existed for between 100,000-250,000 years, life began on earth~3.7 billion years ago(bya, thats just life here we can prove), the earth isn't much older than that, the universe(as we currently understand it in this form) began 13.7 bya. In the 2000 years since one story of mankind was created, you have decided that material existence as we comprehend it is doomed. That is a lofty statement, unsupported by anything other than one apocalyptic prophet(of widely disputed historical veracity) who preached the end of times was going to arrive in his own lifetime. Long story short...he was wrong, even in his fictional story. Please read Bart Ehrman's Historical Jesus, it is a wealth of knowledge. Rook can recommend dozens more books dealing with this, but this book is quick and to the point.

jman wrote:

Have you ever debated a Muslim by any chance? I haven't personally, but I know people that have, and just from the few debates the I do know about between a Christian and a Muslim, the Islamic theology comes across as very weak to me. It's been said that Christianity is the only major religion with any real apologetics to is name.

Yes , that is the point about being completely subjective to one's own religion.  Islam is a blatant ripoff of the abrahamic religions of Christianity and Judaism, with a little revelation from God thrown in as well(where have we seen that before?) If you read up on any creation story objectively, they are all patently ridiculous. Islam has plenty of apologetics, as does  Judaism , and I am sure Hinduism etc.  If you knew nothing of Christianity and someone told you this  religion, we will call it x-ism, believes snakes talked,  a man lived in the belly of a whale, people died, but were then reborn and floated into the sky,  a  God called for the slicing off of every male's penis protective sheath to make  an agreement that they will obey him, etc. you would think those are ridiculous claims. If you were taught them from birth as indisputable facts, you would believe them. You think everyone elses claims are ridiculous, but until you examine your own book's claims with the same objective skepticism you will do nothing but confirm your original beliefs.

jman wrote:

Like I've said before, there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians who in truth are not. I'm sure that there are some how genuinely believe that they are, but the Bible tells us to look at the work or fruits being produced by that person. Just like one can deem a tree good or bad by the fruit that's being produced, so we can deem a person as a follower of Christ, or otherwise. I'm not saying that anyone who goes to jail cannot possibly be a Christian. Everyone messes up, but we are judged by our works. Also, I know that prison ministry is a big ministry for Christians. I'm sure that there are a lot of inmates who have decided to follow Christ after they were already in prison.

You are still using the no true scotsman fallacy, coined by Antony Flew strangely enough, and it won't work regardless of the special pleading you employ. Following Christ after you go to prison, isn't the point. The belief system of Christianity doesn't preclude someone from acting immorally or committing a crime. In fact, it shows that the majority of people incarcerated for crimes are Christian. Saying they are not real Christians is just using special pleading to have them be taken out of the nonexistent Christian utopia you are trying to put forth as the TRUE CHRISTIANS. They don't exist.

Please read those wiki link definitions, as many of your arguments literally do hinge on those fallacious argument techniques. Not being mean, just honest.

Thats all I feel like typing for now, and yeah I can sympathize for having your post scrapped for hitting delete, that is totally frustrating!

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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HisWillness wrote:You might

HisWillness wrote:
You might want to meet a few of us before being the best atheist. Not that I don't think you could win the title of best atheist, but there are a lot of Margaret Downey fans out there.

Well, as much as I'd love to take that title from her, I think I'll just drop out of the runnings and tell you what I meant by that. If you look at the model Christian lifestyle, Jesus Christ, and if people lived like he did and like the message he preached, mankind would have been furthered to perfection. Of course, that's not possible, but I am trying to live like Jesus did. The problem is that you and I have different views on what perfect would be like.

HisWillness wrote:
Well, from your perspective, didn't Jesus already try to instill his lifestyle? I mean, from mine, he's a charater in a book, obviously, but to you, didn't he already wipe away the sins of the world? And didn't the sins come back? So ...

Jesus' death doesn't stop us from sinning. He took the penalty for those sins onto himself when he was crucified almost 2,000 years ago, but some of those sins still have yet to be committed. I'm a Christian, and I still sin, but I've confessed that Jesus is the Lord and I believe that God raised Him from the dead and so I am forgiven of my sins. God no longer sees my sin, but sees the righteousness of His son in my place. Jesus took the wrath of God that should have been mine upon himself and suffered the result of sin, death. But he was raised from the dead, thus defeating death and thus defeating sin in the since that it no longer controls us who believe in God and have the Holy Spirit. We can still sin, but we're forgiven thanks to Jesus. It's not an excuse to sin either. It doesn't work like that. I'm not a Christian if I say, I can do whatever I want and get away from it since God will just forgive me. That's not what the Bible teaches.

HisWillness wrote:
We're human. I'm guessing you believe that we have a corrupt nature because your idea of "corrupt" comes from largely Christian sources. You're not corrupt. Yes, we do horrible things to each other. But to discount all of us because there are a minority who are terrible just seems pessimistic, and not necessary.

When even the best of us is compared to a perfect God with a standard of perfection, even he, or she Smiling, would be like the scum of the earth.


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jman wrote:[ Jesus took the

jman wrote:

[ Jesus took the wrath of God that should have been mine upon himself and suffered the result of sin, death. But he was raised from the dead, thus defeating death and thus defeating sin in the since that it no longer controls us who believe in God and have the Holy Spirit.

Ya...so jesus died for your sin, then came back to life? That's not really dying is it? You can't really say,' here you go mate, I died for you, paid the ultimate price. just ignore the fact I then came back to life and will continue to live forever so I didn't really sacrifice anything....'

33 years isn't much to an eternal being. So he was crucified-so were dozens of others.Mortals who didn't have the promise of being at god's right hand and being the saviour of mankind.Don't see them going on about it though.

Yip,jesus had a pretty bad weekend for your sins.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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nigelTheBold wrote:I wish

nigelTheBold wrote:
I wish more people thought like this. If you wish to spread an idea, this idea is far more valuable to humanity than Christianity, IMNSHO.

If more people thought like that, human kind just might head toward Christianity. Smiling

IMNSHO? ¿Que eso?

 


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jman wrote:IMNSHO? ¿Que

jman wrote:

IMNSHO? ¿Que eso?

 

In My Not So Humble Opinion.

I think


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shikko wrote:As a side

shikko wrote:
As a side comment, so much of theism seems to be about giving believers a way to control others.  I mean, if you think your god wants you to believe certain things, why get your knickers in a twist about what others believe?  Isn't that their business?

Look, I believe that Jesus is the only way to life and to be reconciled with God, whom we were created to have a relationship with and worship. I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell. If I saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, I'd try to stop him from falling in, wouldn't you?

shikko wrote:
You've explained that Christians don't "believe and let believe" because they're commanded not to by their god, so it seems that you want this to be a one way street where believers are allowed to proselytize, but nonbelievers shouldn't point out the inherent wackiness in theistic beliefs (or maybe we ARE, as long as it's about a religion not your own).  Why do Christians deserve special treatment?

I didn't say that I wanted it to be a one way street, I was just wanting to hear the reason way atheists go down their side of the street is all. And I don't think Christians deserve special treatment. No one is exempt from the scrutiny that comes with the pursuit of truth.


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Loc wrote:This boils down to

Loc wrote:
This boils down to everything created needs a creator. The thing here is, who created god?

Yeah, everything subject to the laws that we see working in this universe needs a creator, but God is not subject to these laws...He created them. The whole idea of infinite regression is based upon these natural laws. God isn't bound by those laws, so God doesn't need a creator. Doesn't that make logical sense?


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Jman, If you want to ask

Jman, If you want to ask your self some serious questions I would read some from these following posts,

questions about God

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? -  ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?

Errors of the bible

 

 

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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jman wrote:Loc wrote:This

jman wrote:

Loc wrote:
This boils down to everything created needs a creator. The thing here is, who created god?

Yeah, everything subject to the laws that we see working in this universe needs a creator, but God is not subject to these laws...He created them. The whole idea of infinite regression is based upon these natural laws. God isn't bound by those laws, so God doesn't need a creator. Doesn't that make logical sense?

I guess makes logical sense.However, for me, if you say'god doesn't need a creator' I'm still going to ask,' then why does the universe?'

Occams Razor and all.

It's like Dawkin's explanation of the ultimate Boeing 747.God is the ultimate Boeing 747. The chances of a being that created the complexity in the world are higher than that complexity just happening, since there is a higher complexity that exists. It is more likely it wasn't created.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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jman wrote:Loc wrote:This

jman wrote:

Loc wrote:
This boils down to everything created needs a creator. The thing here is, who created god?

Yeah, everything subject to the laws that we see working in this universe needs a creator, but God is not subject to these laws...He created them. The whole idea of infinite regression is based upon these natural laws. God isn't bound by those laws, so God doesn't need a creator. Doesn't that make logical sense?

If you wondered what folks mean by "special pleading", you're doing it here.

You can't say "everything has a cause" and exclude God from that everything.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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jman wrote:Yeah, everything

jman wrote:
Yeah, everything subject to the laws that we see working in this universe needs a creator, but God is not subject to these laws...He created them. The whole idea of infinite regression is based upon these natural laws. God isn't bound by those laws, so God doesn't need a creator. Doesn't that make logical sense?
That leaves two questions:

  1. Why does everything subject to physical laws need a creator?
  2. What makes "god" special? (i.e. What exempts god?)

 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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jman wrote:shikko wrote:As a

jman wrote:

shikko wrote:
As a side comment, so much of theism seems to be about giving believers a way to control others.  I mean, if you think your god wants you to believe certain things, why get your knickers in a twist about what others believe?  Isn't that their business?

Look, I believe that Jesus is the only way to life and to be reconciled with God, whom we were created to have a relationship with and worship. I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell. If I saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, I'd try to stop him from falling in, wouldn't you?

Depends on the blind man. (kidding)

We KNOW through experience that falling into the pit will kill someone.  You BELIEVE you have it right about god, etc., but don't have anything approaching the same quality of evidence you have about people falling into pits being fatal to back you up.

Quote:

shikko wrote:
You've explained that Christians don't "believe and let believe" because they're commanded not to by their god, so it seems that you want this to be a one way street where believers are allowed to proselytize, but nonbelievers shouldn't point out the inherent wackiness in theistic beliefs (or maybe we ARE, as long as it's about a religion not your own).  Why do Christians deserve special treatment?

I didn't say that I wanted it to be a one way street, I was just wanting to hear the reason way atheists go down their side of the street is all. And I don't think Christians deserve special treatment. No one is exempt from the scrutiny that comes with the pursuit of truth.

I didn't say you said it, I said "it seems".  By asking the question "why don't atheists just believe and let believe" in conjunction with your compulsion to spread the word, the effect is as I described.

I'm glad to see you don't think believers deserve special treatment.  With that said...

- You assert that something called god exists.  Prove it.

That's how it works.  If you claim something is the case, you must back it up.  If I claimed Italy had the world's tallest mountain or that all lakes had merpeople in them, you'd ask me to prove it, and the onus would be on me to do so.  Until I *did* prove it, you'd be well within the bounds of reason to treat it for what it is: an unsubstantiated claim.

So...what is your evidence that you are right to believe and we are wrong/foolish/blind for not believing as you do?  Remember: words like "proof" and "evidence" have meanings that are not open to interpretation, so don't be surprised if we tell you what you offer is no good (as long as we can explain why it's no good).

 

--
maybe if this sig is witty, someone will love me.


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jman wrote:I've heard it

jman wrote:

I've heard it said by atheists before that the burden of proof doesn't lie on them, that it's God's and his follower's responsibility to prove that there is a God, and they don't have to prove that there is no God. But atheists are the ones with everything to lose, not theists.

Me thinks me smells a hint of Pascal's Wager here.

Actually, do you mean that christians have everything to gain and nothing to lose? A theist is just a generic term for a believer in a religion.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


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Loc wrote:jman wrote:IMNSHO?

Loc wrote:

jman wrote:

IMNSHO? ¿Que eso?

In My Not So Humble Opinion.

I think

Spot on, Mate.


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jman wrote:If you look at

jman wrote:
If you look at the model Christian lifestyle, Jesus Christ, and if people lived like he did and like the message he preached, mankind would have been furthered to perfection.

I'm not sure you could come up with a "model Christian lifestyle". Look at the number of different versions of Christians. That alone gives me the feeling that the interpretations of Jesus' teachings are varied and subjective. Unless you imagine a variable, subjective perfection somehow.

jman wrote:
Of course, that's not possible, but I am trying to live like Jesus did. The problem is that you and I have different views on what perfect would be like.

The difference might be more fundamental: I don't believe in "perfection". Biological creatures are great at doing approximately the thing that keeps them going. I say "approximately" because we never exhibit exactly deterministic behaviour. We're not robots, we're biological creatures. So you, like others, can form an interpretation of the words of Jesus, and then approximate the behaviour that interpretation reccomends, but there will never be a "perfect follower of Jesus". There will, however, continue to be human beings behaving as they have for the last 4,000 years, despite switching their gods and goddesses a few times.

If you mean "try to be good to one another" as a general rule, then you don't need the Bible for that. We do try to be good to one another. We often fail. Some people feel as though they don't need to be good to others at all. But the situation remains the same without the Bible passages.

jman wrote:
God no longer sees my sin, but sees the righteousness of His son in my place.

With this next question, please understand that I'm genuinely curious, and not being condescending: being a believer in Jesus shields your sins from God's view? Feel free to quote Bible passages at this point - I'm not familiar with the Jesus shielding process. 

jman wrote:
We can still sin, but we're forgiven thanks to Jesus. It's not an excuse to sin either. It doesn't work like that. I'm not a Christian if I say, I can do whatever I want and get away from it since God will just forgive me. That's not what the Bible teaches.

But it IS pretty confusing. I mean, for someone who would try and apply these lessons to real life. It's implied that you're forgiven no matter what, but the Bible tells you that you aren't, and you can't get away with sin. I'm not sure what the message is there.

jman wrote:
When even the best of us is compared to a perfect God with a standard of perfection, even he, or she Smiling, would be like the scum of the earth.

Even if I didn't like you, I wouldn't say that about you. I do, however, like you, because you've at least been honest with us. It's pretty rare.

But what does a perfect God need from you? Can a being that is perfect possibly need pets? In fact, can a perfect being need anything?

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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jman wrote:Yeah, everything

jman wrote:

Yeah, everything subject to the laws that we see working in this universe needs a creator, but God is not subject to these laws...He created them. The whole idea of infinite regression is based upon these natural laws. God isn't bound by those laws, so God doesn't need a creator. Doesn't that make logical sense?

Not really, but it doesn't have to. The problem is that you've introduced an entity (God) that doesn't need to conform to logic. You can keep saying, "but God invented logic" or "but God invented physics". You're using a miraculous explanation every time you say that. And that's based on something you've never seen.

Once you bring God into it, and you determine that God is the one thing that doesn't need to conform to natural laws, you can't even use logic anymore. You're stuck. I suppose the next step would be to wonder how it was that a non-physical being made a message by way of the Bible.

Saint Will: no gyration without funkstification.
fabulae! nil satis firmi video quam ob rem accipere hunc mi expediat metum. - Terence


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jman wrote:Look, I believe

jman wrote:

Look, I believe that Jesus is the only way to life and to be reconciled with God, whom we were created to have a relationship with and worship. I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell. If I saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, I'd try to stop him from falling in, wouldn't you?

Blind man: Thank you for warning me. Could you just lead me to the edge of the hole so I can find it with my cane and determine its dimensions so I can avoid it in the future?

You: Uh, no, you just have to trust me that its there. And by the way you are a bad person for not believing in the Hole.

BM: I don't get it. If the hole is there, what is the problem with me finding the edge of it?

You: It isn't that kind of Hole. You can't feel it with a physical stick because it isn't part of the natural world and doesn't obey the laws of physics.

BM: If that is true, then how do you know it is there? How did you find it?

You: I wanted to be a good guy so I decided to believe the hole is there and interpret all evidence I received to be supporting that conclusion.

BM: Hm. If the hole isn't part of the physical world and doesn't obey the laws of physics, then I should be able to walk right over it without falling, right?

You: No, you fall into this hole just like any other hole.

BM: How do you know that? Have you fallen into it?

You: No, but this is what all nice people believe.

BM: How does belief in the hole relate to my being nice or not?

You: All morals come out of the hole. If you don't base your morals on the hole, you have no basis for good behaviour.

BM: Morals come out of the hole? But didn't you just say that you only believe in the hole because of your moral desire to be a good person?

You: Well, I also believe in the hole because I was brought up to do so and because all my friends do so and because I get some good networking and social support from my hole-believers group. But I realize that none of that applies to you, so, yes, my moral position is the only real basis I have.

BM: So the hole exists because you want to be good and you want to be good because the hole exists? What came first, the hole or your wanting to be good?

You: I don't know, but having made it a personal principle to believe in the hole, I can't back out now or even question my view as that would be a personal moral failure on my part.

BM: Thanks, but I think the trap you are in is worse than the minute chance that you are right about that hole. *keeps walking*

jman wrote:

I didn't say that I wanted it to be a one way street, I was just wanting to hear the reason way atheists go down their side of the street is all. And I don't think Christians deserve special treatment. No one is exempt from the scrutiny that comes with the pursuit of truth.

You just answered your original question of why atheists bother to question theism: we are interested in the truth and don't feel that theism serves the purpose of taking people there.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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That was brilliant

That was brilliant Tilberian.

jman,please read that carefully.If the you think the guy was a kook,then you'll see why we dismiss your god. You are convinced of an afterlife and a god, but can't provide any sort of eveidence.Do you see our problem?

Here's another analogy:

Lets say you appear before a judge with a huge fine you can't pay. The judge decides to pay it for you just because he likes you. Nice guy huh?  Obviously the judge is god and the fine your sins.

But what if the judge had made thousands of insane laws no one could keep? And then, knowing people would break them, decided to punish them for it unless they came and served him so he would clear their fines. Now he just sounds like a petty, vindictive bastard.

Psalm 14:1 "the fool hath said in his heart there is a God"-From a 1763 misprinted edition of the bible

dudeofthemoment wrote:
This is getting redudnant. My patience with the unteachable[atheists] is limited.

Argument from Sadism: Theist presents argument in a wall of text with no punctuation and wrong spelling. Atheist cannot read and is forced to concede.


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Really Late into this Debate

Well here is my 2 cents, take it for what it is worth. The reason I stand against theistic beliefs is very simple, I do not wish to live under that type of system. You are free to believe as you wish, however once that  belief starts to affect the lives of others, well as a citizen of a free and democratic society, I believe in the founding system of my country in we are all equal citizens with equal rights under the law. I do not wish as in many countries in the world to be punished because my belief or lack of belief in a non existent deity will get me punished, in some countries with death. My biggest fear is that of a certain US presidents statement (George Bush Sr. I am looking at you on this one) that atheists should not be considered citizens of the US because they don't believe in god. Such statements if they become enacted would now deprive people of their basic rights to live in a free and democratic society simply because they don't believe in a god.

There are many reasons as to why I would not want to follow the bible. To be killed because I am working on the sabbath? I think not, to be killed because I do not wish to serve jesus (because again I don't believe in jesus nor that he is the son of god or any of that BS), but jesus was clear, bring those that do not wish to serve me and slaughter them. I do not like the idea of compensation that a rape victim gets in the bible, a few silver pieces.....or has to marry the rapists, yeah it's ancient outdated ideas like this that make me not want to follow it. I much prefer the system in which society can make the decisions in regards to what the law is as it can change as out society and as the times change, because what is moral not may not be moral down the road (not allowing us to go shopping on Sundays for example because of the christian belief of worshipping on sunday) but why should people who do not believe in the christian god be deprived of our rights to go shopping for food, for clothing or anything else on sunday? Jews worship on saturday, muslims on friday, and the rest of us, don't worship any god on any day (chinese are great up here for having their stores open even on christmas and easter weekend because they don't celebrate either of them)

As such there are reasons to stand up against theism, and it's irrational belief that we must follow there beliefs/laws/holy book etc, etc, etc. Why should I follow a specific religious group? I much rather follow the laws of society, which adapt and change as we as a society evolve and our knowledge expands, far better than ancient laws, in which many of them, are considered barbaric, unnecessary and cruel.


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Pre warning, this comes accross as a little aggresive... sorry

"When even the best of us is compared to a perfect God with a standard of perfection, even he, or she Smiling, would be like the scum of the earth."

But we are created in god's image. He must be as screwed up as the rest of us. He ceated Adam in his image and that didn't work out so well. Your god is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, yet humans constantly disobeyed him, even back in Moses day when God was supposedly performing miracles right in front of them (do you see the problem with that? That is the problem with bad fiction, inconsistencies). Moses even got God to change his mind a few times. God is hardly perfect.

Prove that God (even if he existed) is good. Look at the harm he did in the bible, countless thousands of people killed. Look at the ridiculous laws that he gave to Moses. Moses the mass murderer. If a virgin gets raped in a field the rapist should pay her father 40 shekels and marry her? WTF?

How can you honestly believe that the bible is true and follow it?

Jman, I like you, you seem like a nice guy, but... Some have thought that you are on the cusp of breaking free from your delusion, but unless you take an objective look at the bible and your religion you are just riding on an exercize bike... lots of pedaling but going nowhere.

I'm not meaning to be aggresive (a little passionate?), just a little slap to try to snap you out of it.

Zen-atheist wielding Occam's katana.

Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division." - Luke 12:51


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jman wrote:Look, I believe

jman wrote:

Look, I believe that Jesus is the only way to life and to be reconciled with God, whom we were created to have a relationship with and worship. I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell. If I saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, I'd try to stop him from falling in, wouldn't you?

 

The only organization with the money and the desire to create a true bottomless pit would be the Catholic church.  So, assuming this bottomless pit is at the Vatican, if you saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, it'd be the work of the Catholic church that this pit wasn't properly cordoned off.  So, again, secular sensibilities would have to rescue this man from the church.


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I hope we didn't scare him

I hope we didn't scare him away. Maybe he is pulling his hair out trying to reconcile his ludicrous notions and irrational leanings. I think he really does seem like a decent guy trying to figure out some things for himself.

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” Yoda


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jman, sometimes it's a good

jman, sometimes it's a good and healthy to just sit down, enjoy our own company, and review what we know about the world / universe. I encourage you to do this just a couple of times a week.

Whether you can admit it here, to your friends / family, or anyone else, when it's all boiled down:

 - You know you have no evidence that God exists or that Jesus walked the Earth

 - You know that the Bible contains a lot of absurdity

 - You know that people lie, and usually it's to make people feel better - but taking your medicine is always the better idea.

 - You know that microbiologists, archaeologists, geologists and astronomers are not part of a 'Big Science' cabal out to destroy you. I'm also pretty sure you know that they know what they're talking about.

 

Sit down. Think about it. You can try misleading us all day, but misleading yourself is another matter. If you're intelligent enough to fire-up a PC (...Mac?) and type messages here, I don't believe for a minute that your brain actually allows you to see Christianity as the truth.

Quote:
"Natasha has just come up to the window from the courtyard and opened it wider so that the air may enter more freely into my room. I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

- Leon Trotsky, Last Will & Testament
February 27, 1940


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jman wrote:What do you you

jman wrote:

What do you you say about someone like Anthony Flew going from atheism to deism? If such a predominant leader among atheists can be brained washed, who knows, maybe we could get you next, Sapient!     Smiling     Just joking!

Jman - this is exactly why atheists have such a problem with theism. It's the general lack of critical thinking that goes along with blindly believing in invisible people in the sky.

You heard somewhere that Antony Flew, a noted atheist writer, converted from atheism to deism. You took that as fact. Had you bothered to do a little research, you would have found that this wasn't true.

Here's an extensive article on Flew's supposed conversion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/magazine/04Flew-t.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

You'll find that Flew is a man of advanced age and declining mental faculties that was conned into putting his name on an anti-atheism book.

Now, let's take the problem of poor critical thinking and apply that to something really important, like the environment, social policy, international relations...now maybe you can see what makes us speak out against theism.

Oh, and it don't cost me a thing. 

 

 

Nobody I know was brainwashed into being an atheist.

Why Believe?


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jman wrote:Yeah, everything

jman wrote:

Yeah, everything subject to the laws that we see working in this universe needs a creator, but God is not subject to these laws...He created them. The whole idea of infinite regression is based upon these natural laws. God isn't bound by those laws, so God doesn't need a creator. Doesn't that make logical sense?

Yes, God is just everything that is not logical.  And we should make a logical decision to devote our lifes entirely to him. Makes perfect logical sense to me.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” Seneca


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Makes sense to me < I AM GOD

Makes sense to me < I AM GOD ! Why not you? ..... get your shit together .... Dont deny YOU, why? , who said such a thing to "worship" ?  >     The god of abe is half the devil , kill that ..... it's the devil of hell ! It's dogma , it is patriotic religion poison. ....      Have your cake and eat it to , and lots of pie .....    L O V E is our law of evolution  ......      And celebrate another day ! 

   


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jman wrote:Hey.I'm jman, 

jman wrote:

Hey.

I'm jman,  and this is my first post! Smiling

All I really wanted to ask, mostly to the RRS, but also to all atheist activists everywhere, why are you going through all of the trouble to shoot down theism?

I'm sorry if this seems insultingly stupid, but here's my point. I don't believe in leprechauns. I also affirm my disbelief by living my life like I don't believe in leprechauns. Leprechauns do not change what, how, when, or where I do anything in my life. (Except that the movie might have given me a nightmare or two, but...anyway) I just went about life without wasting any time or thought on those silly made up creatures that didn't exist. I wasn't motivated to pick up my pen and start to crank out books - Leprechauns are Not Great, The Leprechaun Puzzle, The Leprechaun Delusion, The Leprechaun Who Wasn't There - or go on tours debating with everyone I could find (granted, probably not many, but this is for arguments sake) who believes in Leprechauns. My unbelief has not lead me to go on a crusade to tear down Leprechaunology. In fact, it hasn't effected me at all.

I'd like to hear the reasons for the atheistic attack on theism. Why go through all of the trouble that it's costing you? Why doesn't believe and let believe work for atheists?

I don't believe in Leprechauns, you don't believe in God. Why is there such a difference in the way that our unbelief effects our lives?

 

Jman:

I guess the short answer is that just as there is a (small) fraction of Christians / theists, who feel compelled to "get in your face in order to save your soul", there are atheists who share the exact same mindset and want to "get in your face in order to save your mind".

In my opinion, these people are two sides of the exact same coin. If you take any "hot" topic, you're always going to get about 10% of the people with "extreme" views at each end of the spectrum. The other 80% are too busy with their day-to-day lives and / or hold more moderate / personal views, which they prefer to keep to themselves.

My wife is an atheist. She's seen this website and her own personal opinion is that the "blasphemy challenge" and t-shirts proclaiming atheistic views, for example, is silly. Just her opinion.

I'm a theist and I've certainly seen and heard my share of theists who claim to have all the answers and I'm of the opinion that they're just as silly.

Is it worth the trouble??

To theists and atheists alike who feel compelled to be on the front lines in order to "save souls and minds", I guess it is worth the trouble to them.

Otherwise they wouldn't do it.

 

 

 

 

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible".

St. Thomas Aquinas
1225 - 1274


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jman wrote:shikko wrote:As a

jman wrote:

shikko wrote:
As a side comment, so much of theism seems to be about giving believers a way to control others.  I mean, if you think your god wants you to believe certain things, why get your knickers in a twist about what others believe?  Isn't that their business?

Look, I believe that Jesus is the only way to life and to be reconciled with God, whom we were created to have a relationship with and worship. I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell. If I saw a blind man walking toward a bottomless pit, I'd try to stop him from falling in, wouldn't you?

Maybe I can summarize the glaring problem with this by continuing the metaphor. I think we can accurately say that you've never seen the bottomless pit, but rather read about it in a book. This is simply a different kind of blindness. The blind man necessarily takes his steps carefully, testing each before shifting his weight. He might also employ some instrument such as a cane to make sure that where he is going is safe. It could be true that in claiming to know where the pit is, you're not being as careful as the blind man in avoiding other dangers.

Here is a different metaphor: two men wander through a dark maze of sharp blades and spiked pits. One man charges about expecting god(s) to guide him, the other meticulously judges whether the way is safe by examining his environment with all the means at his disposal. In my eyes, this is the difference between great faith and great science. Most people would place their bets on the survival of the second man.

johnwhardin wrote:

My wife is an atheist. She's seen this website and her own personal opinion is that the "blasphemy challenge" and t-shirts proclaiming atheistic views, for example, is silly. Just her opinion.

I'm a theist and I've certainly seen and heard my share of theists who claim to have all the answers and I'm of the opinion that they're just as silly.

So, what about the hell thing? If you don't believe in hell then the rest of this post is irrelevant.

If you believe in that, doesn't it bother you that if heaven is perfect and you go there you might worry about her ultimate fate? I think that would kind of spoil the ultimate happiness thing. How do you reconcile this? Do you trust that she'll come around eventually? Would you trade positions with her if it came down to it? If that dilemma doesn't bother you then I'm worried.


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yes it is worth it to gain our total independence from religion

On a personal view yes it is worth my time to go to sites like this, and elsewhere and post my view ad my point against organized religion ENMASS.  Just as to many believers think that it is necessary to come bother me on a saturday with pamphlets or to stop me on the street.  I don’t go to churches and stand outside of their door and bring reality to them? 

 We also don't have massive government backings such as in the US the presidents faith based initiatives, and a group who actually advise on international religious freedom (i work where i have seen some of the documents) and they are worried about their god-given right to practice their faith. Even in the government that is supposed to be about separation of church and state, they are only worried about the christians (how can a church be a country and practice activities as real countries do?) The worst part is they are not just worried about this in this country but in the world, like in Islamic countries where christianity is the minority and is treated like the “lesser” or non religious are here.My issue is that this country was founded on freedom of religion to included freedom from religion. This is a natural right to believe or not, NOT some god given right as the religious right thinks. I have that right because I’m alive and can think as a sentient being not because my fear created a being to explain why things happen and I don’t want to feel so alone in the world. This means that just as you think it is a waste to fight against the organized religions for our right to think, it is a waste of all these evangelists and witnesses to bother me, kill trees with their pamphlets, and take over my tv on mornings. Oh and I hate all these church cd commercials. All I’m saying is for centuries religion ruled the dark ages and then some, now the church is loosing its grasp and those that don’t believe the way you do are not afraid to stand up and leave the church.Religion has become a business, and some are banking on the amount that is given to them, they should no longer be given these tax breaks, and special treatment like in the case of illegal’s taking sanctuary in a church for years so they are not deported. This is a building bricks and steel like any other, lets drop the unwritten rule of sanctuary and treat them like any of the lesser religions are. You can’t claim a Wiccan area religious because the government doesn’t treat them as a religion, so there is no sanctuary and no tax breaks, this may lead the roman catholic church to declare there churches land of foreign government like an embassy (which would be funny).  Either treat us all as nut jobs no matter if they believe in mother earth, an imaginary god, aliens, or leprechauns.  Just treat us equal and I’ll leave you along once were left alone. If this was about blacks, women, or Hispanics being mistreated then the whole country would be up in arms, how long till we are given the same respect as racial and gender minorities?  So yes fighting for our rights against you is worth my time! And if you think that were being extreme and irrational then you should remember that those baptists in Kansas think that killing soldiers is god way of punishing the US for allowing us to believe freely. And they protest at military bases and funerals, and they are christians!

 


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ment to ask

Oh i ment to ask all you belivers out there first there have been religions long before your crhistians showed up, so what makes yours so special that it should be the end all be all? just because it came later and there was the ability to force it on the world unlike before with the egyptian and greek polytheistic beliefs, so you got lucky and out lasted?  why is your god much better then Zeus, Rahm, Buddah, or Gya? (probbaly misspelled)

Why cant you allow others to believe as we wish as these religions let you centuries ago?  are you afraid you will be regulated to hystory and myth (as that is what it is) as those were? or is it your loosing your tiething and can't pay for you monsterous churches?

Also someone wrote.    "I know that the goal of Christianity is not to destroy man kind. In fact, it's just the opposite."   and actually religions are a form of control and have been since the dawn of their time, hence the roman and english catholic church institutions.  the way to improve society is not to say what were doing wrong here to get to there, but to believe in humanity and that we can get from here to the future by beliveing in ourselvs.  religions keep people from having or being able to think, they jsut tell them what they can't and can do.

evolution and humans are not under some gods control, gays on both sides are proof,  unless you didn't get the newest version of a bible that he is whispering to some nut in montana or kansas gays are here no matter how your belief may not want them.  that is one proof against god. an other is all the wars if he loved us and could control us then why would he have us killing each other.  Also for those baby making religions, why would a god want you to have 4-14 kids this is the cause of over population, this may have been good when people lived to be 50 got married at 15 and had kids that out of 10 only 3 would live, but lets stop unless you want to start liveing like china with a world wide limit on kids 2 per couple or one per adult in the world.

There are so many things that beg the question WHY that unless your an idiot (which i think so many are) you can't help but wonder.  The proof is my grandpa of 79 years just told me for the last 10 ye has started his change to athiesim and that these organized religions have it wrong and aren't helping society any more.  come on if a 78 year old highly educated, and educator, can do it why not you.

 


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jman wrote:What's wrong with

jman wrote:

What's wrong with using the Bible? Why can't it be judged just like any other historical document? I'm sure you've heard the arguments about how books and accounts about julius caesar and alexander the great were found to be written hundreds of years after their time, and books of the new testament were written less than one hundred years after Christ. I've even heard a good argument that the new testament was starting to be written down even as close as 20 years after Christ! Why doesn't the Bible have good credibility with that kind of resume?

Also, Christianity is more than just the soul. We're to attend to every kind of need that we see, yes the soul is the primary focus, since that's the only part of us that's eternal, but Christians are not suppose to overlook the needs of here and now. I know that you probably see a lot of Christians who don't act like it, but you can't judge Jesus by our poor behavior. You have to judge him for who he says he is, not by his followers who mess up constantly, and make a call yourself.

And as for suffering, the church does not believe in making other people suffer! Christ teaches that we who follow him will suffer because of our faith, and that if someone is willing to follow Christ, they had better know that true devotion to Jesus will include suffering, but we're not suppose to make others suffer. And it's not masochistic either. I sure don't like to suffer, but I wouldn't avoid it if it meant compromising my faith.

Quote:
What's wrong with using the Bible? Why can't it be judged just like any other historical document?

The Bible is not a history textbook. It is a book Christians believe is the word of their god. It is not, nor ever will be in the same category as say, The United States Constitution. The bible is a piece of literature, nothing more.

Nowhere in the US Constitution does it make claims of magic and George Washington never claimed to rise from the dead. But, you are in good company with other religions, they too claim their holy books to be history and those books too are just as full of unsubstantiated fantastic comic book claims, just like yours.

Wanting something to be real is NOT the same as having evidence of such. Even if one could prove that a city, or a person existed in ANY HOLY BOOK of any religion, it still would not make the magical claims real. Just  like because you see Superman flying around New York City, in movies, doesn't mean that a man can do that in reality.

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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jman wrote: I believe that

jman wrote:

 I believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus at all or as the only way to reconciliation with God, will go to hell.

 

Wow, what an attractive offer God presents us with.....submit to his will or he'll burn you alive for eternity 

That's a proposition right up there with "Give me all your money or I'll blow your brains out !"   

 

I'm a right wing atheist because I enjoy being hated by everyone.

"The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination." Voltaire ( 1694-1778 )


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jman, what horrible idols

jman, what horrible idols you worship. I tell you truly, you are sick. There are lots of sites and books , and teachers, that would help your recovery. Some that come to mind are,

  Alan Watts , in Youtube etc, is a healer

  "Atheists for Jesus" site is helpful

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

Listen to an angel - "Wisdom of the Buddha" , 8 min   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI

Pantheism "can be" a stepping stone to overcoming radical dogma superstition.  

Reading the words of the "Founding Fathers" regarding religion is strengthening.

See home page here as well - Click "J" for Thomas Jefferson ETC etc .....

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/qframe.htm

Home page: 

http://www.positiveatheism.org/

--- Also reading the writing of the many philosophers,

WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN----Bertrand Russell  (scroll down)

http://skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id7.html

THE ANTICHRIST - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/travis_denneson/antichrist.html

"Condemned To Be Free" - Sartre

http://www.nimbinaustralia.com/zenwatt/condemnedtobefree.html

                  GOOD LUCK . jman   .... Tell no lies to the children ..... please.

 


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Cool Alan Watts wrote: "The

Cool Alan Watts wrote: "The religion of "Jesus" [a buddha like wise clan] was that he  knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." .......... and,  "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God."

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~~~ Alan Watts

_______________________________________________________________

In other words: "The religion of "Jesus" [a buddha like wise clan] was that they knew they are the sons and daughters of God, as all is ONE, connected, NO MASTER.