Grow up - YOU RESPOND

darth_josh
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Grow up - YOU RESPOND

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Casebolt" <xcorexkidx@hotmail.com>
To: <waronchristmas@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: just a question

i don't know if i will get a response or not...but i don't really care. I just have a question....what are you really accomplishing by encouraging people to deny God?? What is the point?? If people believe then they believe...if they don't then they don't....it's everyone's choice. And how mature is it to ask people to make a video proclaiming that they deny God??
It should be a personal path and choice that each person decides to
make. If you don't believe in God then that's fine...each person has there
views on this world and what is going on in it...Grow up...make the choice
for yourself and live it....and let other people choose for themselves

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Quote: ....Grow

Quote:
....Grow up...

 

Well, you know what they say...

"Why be Born Again when you can just grow up?" Laughing


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Why is it when Atheist take

Why is it when Atheist take an offensive approach it's bad, but when the church does it's good?

I'll stop trying to get people to think for themselves when xtians stop knocking on my door, sending me pamphlets, and trying to get at my kids. They show up at my kid's pre-school handing out flyers for their church's "fun fair."  It's ridiculous. 

 

 

But I'm the bad guy.... 


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The Rational Response Squad:

The Rational Response Squad: Giving people a choice on religion.

Also, could you point out where the RRS FORCED people to make the videos? Thanks.

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought


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Is the original author of

Is the original author of emails posted in the forums notified that it has a thread and that members will be responding? Seems like sending an email/message instead of posting is a hit-and-run tactic, followed by "LA LA LA I can't hear you!" fingers in the ears. I'd like to think we're actually responding to the message.

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I hope so, or I'll have to

I hope so, or I'll have to start linking them here. Smile


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Something that comes up on a

Something that comes up on a fairly regular basis when these theists write in, is that we are somehow forcing people to deny god or leave their religion. Where the hell is this mentality coming from....oh yeah the theistic view of believe or burn.

We must favor verifiable evidence over private feeling. Otherwise we leave ourselves vulnerable to those who would obscure the truth.
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Yes, Susan. I actually send

Yes, Susan.

I actually send a second e-mail three days after the initial post.

Some of them come. For instance, Eric finally made it to the other thread. Sapient says post 'em with the e-mail and send a link to the thread.

I'm always nice in the e-mails too even if their post is hateful or ignorant or both.

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I thought imaginary friends

I thought imaginary friends were for kids????


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  Saying "that's just the

  Saying "that's just the way things are" is just about the most juvenile way to approach life.  There is absolutley nothing immature about standing up and defending what you have to say.  I see no wisdom in sitting on your hands when you could potentially enact real change.  You describe religious choice as being a personal path; this may be iniatially true, but when theists start crossing the word evolution out of high school science text books, that's where the path stops being personal.  Really, who needs to be doing the growing up here?

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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darth_josh wrote: -----

darth_josh wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Casebolt" <xcorexkidx@hotmail.com>
To: <waronchristmas@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: just a question

If people believe then they believe...if they don't then they don't....it's everyone's choice.


It should be a personal path and choice that each person decides to
make. If you don't believe in God then that's fine...each person has there
views on this world and what is going on in it...Grow up...make the choice
for yourself and live it....and let other people choose for themselves

 

See, the problem I see with this (besides the wah wah wah attitude) is that whole pesky god in our government thing. If you don't want me to question your god, or question your beliefs, then don't put your beliefs in our courts. Keep your beliefs out of our schools. Because once your beliefs begin to affect me, and people I love, you bet I'm going to question them. You say you want to let people choose for themselves? Have you read the new lately? People can't 'choose' to get married these days. The 'choice' of terminating a pregnancy is in the balance because of the your beliefs. I have no problems with you having your beliefs. I do have a problem when you beliefs begin to encroach on other people's lives.

Sorry, that turned into a slightly incoherent rant.

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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James Casebolt wrote: i

James Casebolt wrote:
i don't know if i will get a response or not...but i don't really care. I just have a question....what are you really accomplishing by encouraging people to deny God?? What is the point??

The removal of obstacles to technological and societal advancement, as well as the freedom guaranteed in the constitutions of most western countries.

James Casebolt wrote:
If people believe then they believe...if they don't then they don't....it's everyone's choice.

Indeed. But most of those in religion aren't respecting that basic rights of a significant portion of the population. Indoctrination is not a choice.

James Casebolt wrote:
And how mature is it to ask people to make a video proclaiming that they deny God??

Not very, I'll admit. But it's been wildly successful, so I also won't condemn it.

James Casebolt wrote:
It should be a personal path and choice that each person decides to make.

Yes it should. Which is something I support. Most theists do not support it though, and think everyone should be like them.

James Casebolt wrote:
If you don't believe in God then that's fine...each person has there views on this world and what is going on in it...Grow up...make the choice for yourself and live it....and let other people choose for themselves

I do. That's why I'm here.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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 These people seek to end

 These people seek to end religion because they believe that theism is detrimental to society. It is. And it has been for quite some time. But I don't think they understand completely the positive effects of religion. You see, without religion, the general populace would become these bland and uncultured savants that abound in this forum. Nothing is universal, but I find that quite a majority of atheists share a very prominent trait. They are arrogant. They think they have an answer for everything. They are boring and they express themselves merely through their assumption that they are "superior" to the populace. Eventually theism will cease to exist. I find it amusing how atheist believe they are so smart, when in actual fact, they have just been told something before everyone else. I see this arrogance in the Rational Response team. These videos you speak of are essentially just mocking theists. They serve no real purpose in ending theism. The t-shirts they make and other merchandise are usually producing humour from theism also. But I don't really care. Theism will end. It is in my deepest hope that Religion will not. Because as wonderful and essential to the progression of the human race as it is, I find science rather boring. And I don't mean religion as in ceremonies and worship. I mean celebration, philosophy, morals and appreciation of existence. Peace and love for all. 

Fear denies Faith


darth_josh
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Quote:   But I don't

Quote:
  But I don't really care. Theism will end.   It is in my deepest hope that Religion will not.   Because as wonderful and essential to the progression of the human race as it is, I find science rather boring.   And I don't mean religion as in ceremonies and worship.   I mean celebration, philosophy, morals and appreciation of existence.   Peace and love for all.
 It was almost a nice sentiment. Why should celebration, philosophy, morality, and appreciation of existence be subclassifications under 'religion'?

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 Because that is what

 Because that is what Religion should be.

Forget all you know of Religion.

 

Now picture what I have said.

 Would it not be beautiful?

 

It would be the new Religion.

 

It would have nothing to do with the old "religions".

But that is what the word formerly meant, a collaboration of people, all binding their souls to complete each other in every way possible.

 

Sure, these things I envision exist today, but they are not shared by all, their is no complete love.

 

 What I say sounds very "theistic"... right?

 

Forgive me, I grew up with poetry and it flows through me like the words from my mouth.

 

I will put it bluntly. For you "rational minds"

Basically, a society where there is no said object of worship, but the centre of focus is around the appreciation of humanity as a whole.

 Not only humanity but also the Earth.

Not "worshipping" the Earth, like Wiccans, more revelling in its delights, and preserving it against those who would seek to plunder it.

No churches, no heirachy, no rituals.

 Just love for the fellow man and woman, and a furthered interest in the arts and in compassion.

 I can see this idea working well with a revised version of communism.

Of course it has flaws, and there would be those who would see themselves "superior" and attempt to become manipulative in some way. But there are ways around this.

 

These are just thoughts, please, no ridicule. 

 

Fear denies Faith


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Oh I didn't intend ridicule

Oh I didn't intend ridicule by the question.

I also enjoy poetry. I get questions about mine as well.

I have found so many different people on the site. From individualist to conformist, sitemembers exemplify human diversity in my opinion. 

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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

But I don't think they understand completely the positive effects of religion. 

You see, without religion, the general populace would become these bland and uncultured savants that abound in this forum.

It's my understanding that Europe is pretty much without religion as perhaps is Australia. Europe is bland and uncultured? I think not.

Not to mention, "bland and uncultured savants that abound in this forum" is simply an insult to all the atheists on this forum.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

Nothing is universal, but I find that quite a majority of atheists share a very prominent trait.

They are arrogant.

They think they have an answer for everything.

I do believe we have a goodly number of pretty darned intelligent folks here. There's a difference between arrogance and confidence.

Calling us arrogant is simply rude.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

They are boring and they express themselves merely through their assumption that they are "superior" to the populace.

Again with the insults. Many of the posts are fascinating and one can learn a great deal here.

sonofthemorningstar, you have some interesting things to say, but it's completely uncalled for that you insult the people here while saying it. 

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I bore no false words

I bore no false words against any one.  You think that being Atheists, and following the rapid centralization of Atheist thought that you are free from flaw and fault? I think not.  Nothing is universal, I am sure there are many truly unique Atheist minds here.  But, generally I see a strain of thought and action emerging that shows not confidence but complacence.  "We don't believe in God, so we must be better/smarter than you." Another trait on these forums? Inability to face criticism. This is evident in your post.  To me, you are defending   THIS  I do believe the rules for the "Kill 'em With Kindness" Forum are as follows:

Religious debate forum, that is heavily moderated, with strict rules. Posters must make every effort to be kind and courteous. No cursing, no insults, no deconstructive criticism. Moderation is provided by a theist-atheist mod team for fairness.

These Atheists were in breach of this on several accounts. You witnessed it. Did you do anything about it?  There was a reason why I went straight to that forum. I thought I could have intellectual discussion with both Theists and Atheists, where all would be respectful and humbled.  I was wrong.  I am not saying all Atheists are what I have described. But quite a few are.  ----  Susan, It was not in my intention to slander and speak mud of the Atheists here. I am just seeing that we are becoming a very bland and straight forward group, unable to see beauty in life.   I think Man is to quick to believe we are master of all elements. Can a hurricane not destroy entire villages in an hour? Can we produce human life without the union of Man and Woman? Are we "God" yet? NO. NO. NO.  This world has survived for aeons without our prescence. Once we are gone it will continue to orbit and grow.  We humans are very beautiful. Why not sit back, breathe in some fresh air, and feel the warm sun heat your naked skin?  I fear that once Atheism is fully embraced it will cease to exist. Do we call people who no longer believe the Earth is flat a special name?  No.  So once Atheism is dead what will there be?  People. And Science.  What I hope to happen is that we create something to counter and balance Science.   I am too young, and not learned enough to devise such an expression of life. But one day I will.   But as we stand. Theism is still prominent.  I fear it may end in arms, and I can see a world divided in the near future.

Theists and Atheists.

I see the Vatican burning and those suspect of disbelief slain as "infidels" by fundamentalists.  We must remember, the youth are the world's future, and to them we must show the truth.  ----  I think some Atheists feel they know everything. Most Atheists are in fact quite intelligent. But just because there is no God does this mean there are no longer any mysteries beyond our comprehension?. No. There is still much to be learnt.  But there is also much to celebrate. By focusing purely on sciences and logic we deny ourselves that which makes us complete.  The Dawn is near.

The age of cybernetics holding captive the bleeding heart of Man draws closer.  Will we lose ourselves to technology? or will we use it to further our existence?  I do not know.  And never will.  ----

If anyone takes offence from what I have said, I apologise.

Fear denies Faith


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sonofthemorningstar

 

 

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

Nothing is universal, but I find that quite a majority of atheists share a very prominent trait.
They are arrogant.

 
So, Lucifer's child, you feel intimidated?
 
Quote:

They think they have an answer for everything.

So you feel ignorant?
Quote:

They are boring and they express themselves merely through their assumption that they are "superior" to the populace.

So you feel inferior?
Thanks for sharing

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Son, would you please stop

Son, would you please stop with the "you think you are sooo damn smart" shit.

Why don't you ask us what we think instead of acting like a jerk by putting words in our mouths like every other idiot that spewed garbage in this fourm?

You seem think you know everything about, you act like you are so flawless. 

get over it, and to quote the thread title. Get mature. 

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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
These people seek to end religion because they believe that theism is detrimental to society. It is.

No it isn't. Organized theism is detrimental, and that is religion. People can believe what they want. It won't change anything unless they band together.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
But I don't think they understand completely the positive effects of religion.

There aren't any.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
You see, without religion, the general populace would become these bland and uncultured savants that abound in this forum.

Baseless assertion. And insulting to boot. I say you're the bland and uncultured savant.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Nothing is universal, but I find that quite a majority of atheists share a very prominent trait. They are arrogant.

I find the majority of theists share a very prominent trait. They are arrogant. I guess it's a human characteristic.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
They think they have an answer for everything.

Pure bullshit. Do you even know what the term atheist means? I'd guess not by this stupid comment.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
They are boring and they express themselves merely through their assumption that they are "superior" to the populace.

More pure bullshit. You sure love lying don't you?

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Eventually theism will cease to exist.

Wow. You are capable of telling the truth. I'm amazed.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
I find it amusing how atheist believe they are so smart, when in actual fact, they have just been told something before everyone else.

3rd massive lie in one post. Really not going so well for you here...

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
I see this arrogance in the Rational Response team. These videos you speak of are essentially just mocking theists. They serve no real purpose in ending theism.

Actually they do. They serve to bring people here, where the intellectual discussion can commence. But I guess you're too brainless to have figured that out.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
The t-shirts they make and other merchandise are usually producing humour from theism also.

So? It's a humourous thing to see people worship things that don't exist.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
It is in my deepest hope that Religion will not.

Religion will die before theism does. I can't wait.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Because as wonderful and essential to the progression of the human race as it is, I find science rather boring.

I guess you have a significant problem with reality.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
And I don't mean religion as in ceremonies and worship. I mean celebration, philosophy, morals and appreciation of existence.

You don't need religion for morals, appreciation, philosophy, or celebration. It corrupts them all, and needs to die.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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You two both flatter me

You three all flatter me with perfect examples of such arrogance.  Also, to hurl hollow threats over the internet is as integral to stupidity as lack of knowledge.  Mature? You speak to me of "Maturity"?  I tell you this, what if I was to know all that could be, but my manner were of a child's.  Would I be mature?   ----

I can just see it now... "No, you would have X psychiatric disorder and Y behavioural disability"

How rational.  Rational thought involves levels of thought restriction not unlike theism.  You don't see it but. You all follow the same code. You will deny this. But slowly your human minds will corrupt the somewhat pure intentions of Rational Thought and Atheism.  And perhaps it will become the new religion.  Deny it if you will.  But you can't remove theism without something taking its place.  Mystify me.

Fear denies Faith


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Oh, Vastet, you make me

Oh, Vastet, you make me smile with you bluntness and closed mind. An answer for everything, that directly rejects all I say. You people surely are destroyers of Joy and Love. Yet how blind you are to see that religion is but a word. There are forces at work in the world that heed no words nor alphabets. They cannot be scientifically explained. People have tried but failed. No. Before you all start. I do not mean "God" or "Dragons" or "Faeries" or other myths like that. Figure it out, I know you can, being so infinitely intelligent. I do not wish to critique Atheism further, because you people are not yet ready to face your reality. And perhaps you will find out when its too late. Its a shame, you must understand that people like me are merely trying to help you, by delivering an outside perspective, as you do to Theists. I apologize for all you may take offence to, and I will leave you from my thoughts. Goodbye, Brothers and Sisters.   

Fear denies Faith


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I'm actually 5'4", but would

I'm actually 5'4", but would like to be 6 feet tall - see all the advantages taller people have. So would you allow me to believe I was actually 6' tall just so I'd be happier or would you rather see me dealing with reality? I personally would rather live in the real world than a fantasy world.

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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
You three all flatter me with perfect examples of such arrogance.

You're a perfect example of arrogant hypocracy. Congrats!

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Also, to hurl hollow threats over the internet is as integral to stupidity as lack of knowledge.

What threats? Your lies and stupidity increase incrementally. I won't deal with the mature comment since I didn't make it.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Rational thought involves levels of thought restriction not unlike theism.

The restriction against saying blue is green is hardly a bad thing. We aren't talking about art. Or fiction. We're talking about day to day life.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
You don't see it but. You all follow the same code. You will deny this. But slowly your human minds will corrupt the somewhat pure intentions of Rational Thought and Atheism.

Unsupported assertions merely make me lower my estimate of your intellect once again. It's approaching the 10/100 mark now. Where 100 is the average person and 0 is a brainless vegetable.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Deny it if you will.

You've given me nothing to deny. So there's no point.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
But you can't remove theism without something taking its place.

Prove it.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

Oh, Vastet, you make me smile with you bluntness and closed mind.

Oh I'm blunt alright. But my mind is not closed. Even though you apparently want it to be for some reason.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
An answer for everything, that directly rejects all I say.

I don't have answers for everything. I already pointed this out to you in my last post. Down again: 9/100.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
You people surely are destroyers of Joy and Love.

Theatrics will get you nowhere.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

Yet how blind you are to see that religion is but a word.

Every word is just a word. It's the concept behind the word that's the problem.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
There are forces at work in the world that heed no words nor alphabets.

Name some.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

They cannot be scientifically explained.

Impossible. They have not been scientifically explained perhaps. But then, that will always be the case with something or another. Unless we get to a point when we know everything that is.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
People have tried but failed.

And in the future they will try and fail, and fail, and fail, and then finally succeed. Such is the beauty of science. Even failure is success.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
No. Before you all start. I do not mean "God" or "Dragons" or "Faeries" or other myths like that. Figure it out, I know you can, being so infinitely intelligent.

For someone whining about arrogance, you certainly are possessed of enough of it. But then I already concluded above that you're a hypocrite.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
I do not wish to critique Atheism further, because you people are not yet ready to face your reality.

In other words you've been shown as a fool and can't support your stupid comments. No surprise there.

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Its a shame, you must understand that people like me are merely trying to help you, by delivering an outside perspective, as you do to Theists.

If it's your wish to help us, you're failing miserably.

And I don't even know what language that last line is, if it's even a language, let alone what it says/means.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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I sincerely do feel sorry

I sincerely do feel sorry for people like this. They tell us to grow up, yet it is they who indulge in magical thinking and are afraid to apply critical thinking to what they hold true, due to the possibility that it will shatter their faith and bring them out of the darkness and into the light. To them, the darkness of blind belief is comforting and safe, because what resides beyond the darkness is left to the imagination and it can be anything they want it to be. In the light, they would see what is actually there and, deep down, they all know it's not what they imagine.


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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Nothing is universal, but I find that quite a majority of atheists share a very prominent trait.
 
They are arrogant.
 
They think they have an answer for everything. They are boring and they express themselves merely through their assumption that they are "superior" to the populace.


From my experience it is actually the other way around, it is the theists who are arrogant often telling the atheists and those who are of religions other than theirs things like "I am superior because of my god, my god is what gives me my happiness and morals.  Without my god one wouldn't truly understand what happiness is nor what morals are.  I'm not going to explain to you how my god makes my happiness, morals and cultural richness superior because you wouldn't understand because you don't have my god."

Most of the threads in this very site will back my argument, just take a quick browse and you will see in almost every thread that has been contributed to by a theist these very things.  That, is arrogance.

soneofthemorningstar wrote:
But I don't really care. Theism will end.
 
It is in my deepest hope that Religion will not.
 
And I don't mean religion as in ceremonies and worship.

I mean celebration, philosophy, morals and appreciation of existence.


Theism to end but religion not to?  Aren't they both one in the same?  Oh, and right there I see that very same arrogance, you include celebration, philosophy, morals and appreciation of existence as though they are things atheists do not and possibly can not have ...

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Basically, a society where there is no said object of worship, but the centre of focus is around the appreciation of humanity as a whole.

 Not only humanity but also the Earth.

Not "worshipping" the Earth, like Wiccans, more revelling in its delights, and preserving it against those who would seek to plunder it.

No churches, no heirachy, no rituals.

 Just love for the fellow man and woman, and a furthered interest in the arts and in compassion.


Sounds like an atheist world to me.  One that many thiests cannot understand because they believe love, morals and compassion are things purely brought of their god.  

What you have said here, this is the exact same future I am fighting for. Smiling

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
You think that being Atheists, and following the rapid centralization of Atheist thought that you are free from flaw and fault?
I think not.


I agree.  Nobody can be free from flaw and fault, those are characteristics of humanity no matter what their beliefs are.  

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Susan, It was not in my intention to slander and speak mud of the Atheists here. I am just seeing that we are becoming a very bland and straight forward group, unable to see beauty in life.


You are not seeing the entire person through these forums, just one side of each and every user here.  The side that is either for or against theism.  It has no effect on the other aspects of ourselves, our daily lives and interactions.  We are not robots who live and breath arguments on theism.  We hold down jobs, we spend time with our friends, we go out and experience life.  Word of these actions never make it to this board though as this board is not about people socialising but rather it is about discussing a certain topic.  If RRS were to create seperate sub forums for non-theist topics I'm sure you'd get to see the other sides of most of us and come to appreciate us more.

Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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Susan
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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Oh, Vastet, you make me smile with you bluntness and closed mind.
Insult
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
An answer for everything, that directly rejects all I say.
This is a discussion forum. Was it expected that everyone would immediately agree? The statements in the posts were refuted. That's what happens here. You make an assertion and back it up. Others will then refute the argument and back them up.
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
You people surely are destroyers of Joy and Love.
Bigger insult
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Yet how blind you are to see that religion is but a word.
Insult (Not to mention an incorrect statement that religion is "but a word". That has already been refuted in a prior post.)
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
There are forces at work in the world that heed no words nor alphabets. They cannot be scientifically explained. People have tried but failed.
Forces at work in the world?!? I think that's been discussed on a different thread. And again, assertion with no foundation.
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
No. Before you all start. I do not mean "God" or "Dragons" or "Faeries" or other myths like that. Figure it out, I know you can, being so infinitely intelligent.
Yet another insult
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
I do not wish to critique Atheism further, because you people are not yet ready to face your reality.And perhaps you will find out when its too late.
An odd insult
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Its a shame, you must understand that people like me are merely trying to help you, by delivering an outside perspective, as you do to Theists.
These posts aren't an outside perspective. They contain multiple insults to the people on this forum. This person is trying to help by using insults? Oh come on now!
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
I apologize for all you may take offence to, and I will leave you from my thoughts.
The apology cannot be sincere. It's along the lines of someone smacking you in the face and then saying "Oops. Excuse me."
sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Goodbye, Brothers and Sisters.
Quite honestly, I hope that means this was the last post.

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darth_josh
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The last line is Runic for

The last line is Runic for his screen name.

Vastet and Susan are spot on in analysis in my opinion. 

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deludedgod
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To dance around rational

To dance around rational argument using poetry is the oddest debate tactic I have hitherto encoutered. He reminds me of John Keates hyper-romanticist philosphers. His "arguments" were based on semantics not reason. I'm trying to place precisely the logical fallacy that crops up most consistently (trying to decide between the argument from ridicule and the argument from pity).Some things he said were bizarre. 

 But some were also quite intelligent. Like that religion should simply become morals, philosophy and appreciation for life. Sonofthemorningstar, if you can go out and convince the Bible thumpers who literally believe in hellfire and creation, who really believe their Burgundy wine is the blood of Christ, that they are nutcases, then we will drop this site. After all, there would be nothing left to fight for.

But your claim "that is what religion should be" does not stand up to the correct definition of religion

Religion is a set of codified beliefs and practices expressed in the forms of rituals and worships often laid down in Holy Text

Get it? Just because you think religion should morph into new age philosophy does not mean that it actually is. 

Since we've all decided to break out in poetry, this reminds me of a poem about religion I composed a very (very) long time ago:

 

RELIGION IS THE ULTIMATE

The ultimate excuse to avoid looking at the evidence
The ultimate in indoctrination and unquestioning
Teaching its subjects, from when they are impressionable children
To be satisfied with not knowing and having faith
And regarding not knowing as a virtue
Religion can suppress the fundamental human need to question
In a way nothing Orwellian could describe
And is the ultimate in contradictions, fallacy and lies
Religion fails to grasp the obvious
We are not created in His image
But rather he in ours
God is no more than a comfort creation of man
Nothing more than armchair ratiocination
An a priori conjured up by ancients
Who suffered from Incredulity complex
A human creation from thin air
And so Religion is the ultimate teleological reliever
Assuring us that a purpose has been created for us
And that we should submit ourselves before it
Religion is the ultimate device for control
And has served many corrupt power structures of men
Seeking to exact dominion over their subjects
Religion is the ultimate laughable exercise
Telling us the writings of books collated
Over a millennia ago should trump
All the hard-earned truths of science that man has gleaned
And so it creates an environment where ignorance thrives
Religion is the ultimate in dangerous moral absolutism
Where you can commit the unspeakable if you are deluded
Into thinking God wills it
And it still finds the arrogance to assume
It is the basis of morality instead of vice-versa
And for this reason its many factions see fit to war for millennia
Accusing each other of being blind to the truth, infidels and disbelievers
And so it revels in decay and unquestioning ignorance
Religion in the best tool in controlling people
And through it you can create a first-class dictatorship
Where the lie that you must not because the ruler wishes it,
But God, is accepted without question
Religion comforts us with the most preposterous beliefs
Life after death, heaven and hell, purgatory and divinity
Religion can crush any inward critiquing and curiosity of its children about God
Saying that we can never understand it and we should not try
It creates the arbitrary standard that we aren’t allowed to understand
After all, the word God, by definition means
A power so great we cannot understand
But it still asks us to submit ourselves without question before Him
Religion can be good, depending on who wields it
But through others, it becomes a most terrible evil
Spewing hatred, restriction, ruthlessness and intolerance
It may once have served a purpose
Where men looked to the sky in wonder
When men did not yet grasp the grand majesty of the universe
But today, where we have cracked the atom and touched the heavens
It is nothing more than obsolescent sludge

Is it too much to hope that it will be dumped in the dustbin of history where it belongs

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Susan
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I suspect that if you

I suspect that if you remove the centering format, you all probably wouldn't think it's poetry.

 

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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:

Forgive me, I grew up with poetry and it flows through me...

No wonder I mistook it for shit.


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sonofthemorningstar

sonofthemorningstar wrote:
Because that is what Religion should be.
No, it's what you think religion should be. Besides, you didn't answer the question.

The question was "Why should celebration, philosophy, morality, and appreciation of existence be subclassifications under 'religion'?"

celebration, philosophy, and morality are the primary concepts he was regarding

He was asking why you believe these concepts to be solely a subset of religion (i.e. religion taking ownership of those concepts) instead of being stand-alone concepts which might just happen to coincide with religion sometimes.

You turned the question on its head, and did not regard celebration, philosophy and morality as the primary concepts. You instead held religion as the primary concept.

Now that I've tried to basically spell that out for you, can you answer the question he asked?


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Cruci Fiction

Cruci Fiction wrote:
sonofthemorningstar wrote:

Forgive me, I grew up with poetry and it flows through me...

No wonder I mistook it for shit.

 

Oh my god! HAHAHAHA!

 

You are one funny person. 

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darth_josh wrote: -----

darth_josh wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Casebolt" <xcorexkidx@hotmail.com>
To: <waronchristmas@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:47 PM
Subject: just a question

i don't know if i will get a response or not...but i don't really care. I just have a question....what are you really accomplishing by encouraging people to deny God?? What is the point?? If people believe then they believe...if they don't then they don't....it's everyone's choice. And how mature is it to ask people to make a video proclaiming that they deny God??
It should be a personal path and choice that each person decides to
make. If you don't believe in God then that's fine...each person has there
views on this world and what is going on in it...Grow up...make the choice
for yourself and live it....and let other people choose for themselves

 

The "point" is encourage atheist to come out. Atheist are one of the most distrusted and disliked groups. It time to people realize that where here and we will be heard, and well yeah, its also a promotional gimmick for The God Who Wasn't There video.

 

If it is immature to declare one's disbelief in god, then it must be also be immature to proclaim one's belief as well. This shames every evangelist and pastor you have ever know. It is not the act it self that is "immature" just how you go about it.  The Blasphemy Challenge does nothing that is disgraceful or tasteless. So our "maturity" is not at stake.

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. ~ Albert Eins


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darth_josh wrote:i don't

darth_josh wrote:
i don't know if i will get a response or not...but i don't really care. I just have a question....what are you really accomplishing by encouraging people to deny God?? What is the point?? If people believe then they believe...if they don't then they don't....it's everyone's choice. And how mature is it to ask people to make a video proclaiming that they deny God??
It should be a personal path and choice that each person decides to
make. If you don't believe in God then that's fine...each person has there
views on this world and what is going on in it...Grow up...make the choice
for yourself and live it....and let other people choose for themselves

It sure does sounds like you're expecting a response to state that you don't care. I'm not sure what you mean by asking what we're accomplishing. We don't believe in a higher being. We use rational thought and common sense in our lives. If people choose to make videos re: not believing in god, how has that affected you? Are your feelings hurt? Did we make baby Jesus cry again? If anyone needs to grow up, it's you. Realize that not EVERYONE thinks the same boring thoughts that you think.

PW

"Heresy is only another word for freedom of thought."
~Graham Greene


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darth_josh wrote: What are

darth_josh wrote:
What are you really accomplishing by encouraging people to deny God?? What is the point??

There are those of us who don't believe in God but have had to live alone in a God fearing world our entire lives. The act is a voice of reason that says "Humanity does not need religion but we do need human affection to survive."

What's the voice of reason coming from the Christian camp, is it one of compassion and tolerance? Draw your own conclusions...

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher.

Your questions should now be one of reason and why you are here feeling threatened by a minority of people. A group of people who hold similar views to each other and are trying to find one another.

Now I ask you again what is the voice of reason coming from the Christian camp? Is it tolerance?

Your mind will answer most questions if you learn to relax and wait for the answer. - William S. Burroughs