Theist wants a response (you respond)

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YOU RESPOND:

Quote:

From: soccerfreak141@yahoo.com

Dear People (whoever you are),
Now it is my turn to give you a piece of the truth and try to free you all from the mind disorder known as Atheism. My first "general
question" is how do you explain the existence of the universe? -It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God). There had to have been something from the beginning, nothing can come from nothing, so there always had to be something (do you follow?) Also I ask, "WHY ARE U TRYING TO SEND PPL TO HELL?????" HELL is a torturous demon possessed non- stop firery inferno meant to torture those who have sinned against God and haven't received the FREE gift of eternal life through God's son- Jesus Christ. Instead of FREEING humanity as you say, you are actually condemning them...which is the least HUMANE thing you could possibly do to a fellow human being. And I would like to comment on your the examples of how many ppl God killed vs. Satan...God killed those ppl b/c they disobeyed him, God has the right to do that b/c he
created us in the first place- he loves evey single one of us (and I knowyou're wondering, then why would he kill a person he loves)...but first
let me ask you a question also, "Do you think that if there were a God, would you want one that you were able to understand???? NO- we don't fully understand him and that's why he gets to be called...GOD (makes perfect logical sense). Next, I would leave you with a few verses and I pray that you will pay close attention to them:

" For we have known and BELIEVED the love that God has or us. God is love
and he who abides in love, abides in God, and God in him. Love has been
perfected among us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of
judgement b/c as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love,
but perfect love casts out fear because fear involves torment. He who fears
has not been made perfect in love. We love him because he FIRST loved us."
- 1 John 4: 16-19
I hope your minds are changed about what you are doing, Jesus doesn't want
any of you to go to Hell and neither do I. The central part of our faith in
Jesus Christ is trust and hope in a love so divine as you have just read in
the passage above. Why do turn away from the God who loves you
unconditionally?

-A follower of Jesus

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Hambydammit
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Now it is my turn to give

Now it is my turn to give you a piece of the truth and try to free you all from the mind disorder known as Atheism.

By all means. Give it a shot!

how do you explain the existence of the universe?

Why does it matter how I explain it? Does it matter that for years and years people thought that lightning was a manifestation of the hand of some god or another? Did that make it so? No... it was still just electricity. I don't have an answer to the existence of the universe, and neither do you. It's not particularly important, believe it or not.

-It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God).

What? Could you explain how it's irrational? If you can believe that a god always existed, why can't you believe that the universe always existed? There are plenty of theories about how the big bang came about, including some that involve an eternal expansion and contraction, making this one of many universes in an endless cycle. What's so hard to believe about that if you've already wrapped your brain around an eternal being?

There had to have been something from the beginning.

Why?

nothing can come from nothing, so there always had to be something (do you follow?)

So, you're admitting that the universe always existed, in some form or another? Good. We agree. No need for your bizarre theory of god, then. You're an atheist now. Congratulations!

"WHY ARE U TRYING TO SEND PPL TO HELL?????"

Can't send someone to a place that doesn't exist, can we?

And even if it does exist, it's god's plan for those people to go. Since he knows everything, and has always known everything, before he created the universe, he knew about the Blasphemy Challenge, and knew every single soul that was going to perish, so it's not our fault. Look at your god for blame. All he would have needed to do was make a world without atheists. No more need for hell.

HELL is a torturous demon possessed non- stop firery inferno meant to torture those who have sinned against God and haven't received the FREE gift of eternal life through God's son- Jesus Christ.

Prove it.

Instead of FREEING humanity as you say, you are actually condemning them...which is the least HUMANE thing you could possibly do to a fellow human being.

The most humane thing to do would be to kill every baby ever born so they never have the chance to reject god and go to hell.

... that is, if your god exists, and that's really how the universe is. Lucky thing is, we don't believe that.

And I would like to comment on your the examples of how many ppl God killed vs. Satan...God killed those ppl b/c they disobeyed him, God has the right to do that b/c he created us in the first place

What a dick!

he loves evey single one of us (and I knowyou're wondering, then why would he kill a person he loves)

Yeah... doesn't sound like love to me. Sounds like he's a dick.

"Do you think that if there were a God, would you want one that you were able to understand????

Yes.

NO- we don't fully understand him and that's why he gets to be called...GOD (makes perfect logical sense).

Our school system has failed us yet again. It's actually contrary to logic.

Next, I would leave you with a few verses and I pray that you will pay close attention to them:

And I will quit reading at this point in your post. I have read the bible from one end to the other in multiple versions, with a hebrew/greek concordance at the ready. That's exactly why I'm an atheist. You should try it.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Quote: -It is Irrational to

Quote:
-It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God).

 

Polytheists think you're an asshat. 

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Quote: Now it is my turn to

Quote:
Now it is my turn to give you a piece of the truth and try to free you all from the mind disorder known as Atheism.

I'm decidedly unenthused.

Quote:
My first "general
question" is how do you explain the existence of the universe? -It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God

Yes, it is. Even for moment. Is there some reason why that isn't rational?

Quote:
who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God).

Well shit, that explains everything!

Quote:
There had to have been something from the beginning, nothing can come from nothing, so there always had to be something (do you follow?)

If nothing can exist without a creator, then who created the creator? For that matter, who created the creator's creator? Not to mention the creator's creator creator's creator? It's contradicting to say the universe couldn't "just happen" because it had to be created by a god who "just happened". Do you follow?

Quote:
Also I ask, "WHY ARE U TRYING TO SEND PPL TO HELL?????"

We're not. There isn't a hell.

Quote:
HELL is a torturous demon possessed non- stop firery inferno meant to torture those who have sinned against God and haven't received the FREE gift of eternal life through God's son- Jesus Christ.

Oh no! Good thing it's just a fairy tale.

Quote:
Instead of FREEING humanity as you say, you are actually condemning them...which is the least HUMANE thing you could possibly do to a fellow human being.

Condemning people for eternity is inhumane? That seems to be a regular passtime for your god. Why else would he created his non-stop demon party, hell, as you previously described?

Quote:
And I would like to comment on your the examples of how many ppl God killed vs. Satan...God killed those ppl b/c they disobeyed him, God has the right to do that b/c he
created us in the first place-

so your parents are "allowed" to kill you if you disobey them?

Quote:
he loves evey single one of us (and I knowyou're wondering, then why would he kill a person he loves)

this should be interesting.

Quote:
but first
let me ask you a question also, "Do you think that if there were a God, would you want one that you were able to understand????

Yes, I would.

Quote:
NO-

Apparently, I am mistaken. Good thing you're around to answer my questions for me.

Quote:
we don't fully understand him and that's why he gets to be called...GOD (makes perfect logical sense).

It actually makes no sense. This statement make no attempt to explain or prove anything. I'd say nice try, but this is pretty pathetic.

Quote:
Next, I would leave you with a few verses and I pray that you will pay close attention to them: " For we have known and BELIEVED the love that God has or us. God is love
and he who abides in love, abides in God, and God in him. Love has been
perfected among us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of
judgement b/c as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love,
but perfect love casts out fear because fear involves torment. He who fears
has not been made perfect in love. We love him because he FIRST loved us."
- 1 John 4: 16-19

I'm sure you just converted eveyone on this site by using the as of yet unthought of device of quoting scripture.

Quote:
I hope your minds are changed about what you are doing, Jesus doesn't want
any of you to go to Hell and neither do I. The central part of our faith in
Jesus Christ is trust and hope in a love so divine as you have just read in
the passage above. Why do turn away from the God who loves you
unconditionally?

Let me help you out here:

un·con·di·tion·al /ˌʌnkənˈdɪʃənl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-kuhn-dish-uh-nl] -adjective

- Not limited by conditions;an absolute: un unconditional promise.

You see, the definition of the word "unconditional" is "without condition". Therefore, "unconditional love" is  love without condition. If you love someone unconditionally, then the absolute last thing you would ever think of doing to them is condemning them to eternal torment, especially for something as trite as "disobedience". You would never do this to someone you love. Does it make sense to you to believe in a being's "benevolence", when this same being would send you screaming into the pits of hell for some very questionable preset rules? Any sane, rational human being would find that style of benevolence highly suspect. That being said, doesn't it make sense that the concept of hell was created by people to keep people in fear?

Fear is a great deterent for any kind of thought or action. The people who created your religion did so with the goal of controlling a group of people utterly. Obviously, they were successful in this since the concept of religion perservered long beyond the memory of the people wh created it. "Hell" is being used against you as a deterrent to common sense. If you applied the same kind of common sense to your religion that you apply to your everyday life, You would stop believing. But then, they'd lose their control over you. And you call atheism a mind disorder?

If I might requote you:

Quote:
he loves evey single one of us (and I knowyou're wondering, then why would he kill a person he loves)

you never answered this question. I hope that you would respond with an answer. You know, whenever "later" is.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


Brian37
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RationalResponseSquad

RationalResponseSquad wrote:
YOU RESPOND:
Quote:
From: soccerfreak141@yahoo.com Dear People (whoever you are), Now it is my turn to give you a piece of the truth and try to free you all from the mind disorder known as Atheism. My first "general question" is how do you explain the existence of the universe? -It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God). There had to have been something from the beginning, nothing can come from nothing, so there always had to be something (do you follow?) Also I ask, "WHY ARE U TRYING TO SEND PPL TO HELL?????" HELL is a torturous demon possessed non- stop firery inferno meant to torture those who have sinned against God and haven't received the FREE gift of eternal life through God's son- Jesus Christ. Instead of FREEING humanity as you say, you are actually condemning them...which is the least HUMANE thing you could possibly do to a fellow human being. And I would like to comment on your the examples of how many ppl God killed vs. Satan...God killed those ppl b/c they disobeyed him, God has the right to do that b/c he created us in the first place- he loves evey single one of us (and I knowyou're wondering, then why would he kill a person he loves)...but first let me ask you a question also, "Do you think that if there were a God, would you want one that you were able to understand???? NO- we don't fully understand him and that's why he gets to be called...GOD (makes perfect logical sense). Next, I would leave you with a few verses and I pray that you will pay close attention to them: " For we have known and BELIEVED the love that God has or us. God is love and he who abides in love, abides in God, and God in him. Love has been perfected among us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgement b/c as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear because fear involves torment. He who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love him because he FIRST loved us." - 1 John 4: 16-19 I hope your minds are changed about what you are doing, Jesus doesn't want any of you to go to Hell and neither do I. The central part of our faith in Jesus Christ is trust and hope in a love so divine as you have just read in the passage above. Why do turn away from the God who loves you unconditionally? -A follower of Jesus

God, "I love you unconditionally"

Me, "Ok, have it Yahwey. But can I ask you a question?"

God, "No shut up! OBEY ME OR I WILL TORTURE YOU FOREVER!" 

 Now, try to follow that logic.

We dont believe in your fictional character.

BUT, if you claim X is true.

WE are merely saying, "Here is the problem I have with X claim".

Omnibenevolence is a contratiction to the concept of "all loving"

There is no way I would bow to threats of enternal violance and pain simply over a dissagreement. Bullies and tyrants expect obidiance. Civil beings have discorse and questioning back and forth and should not commit acts of violence or torture because the other person doesnt want to follow them.

The concepts you put forth as to what you claim your deity will do to us for merely not following him are absurd to modern pluralistic cultures. If it is not ok to torture people who merely say, "I dont want to be in your club" Why would you worship a deity that would do that?

I cant stop you from believing what you do and I certainly wouldnt use goverment to force you to stop believing it. But for you to post this stuff and expect us to magically bow to a claim with no evidence of such is patantly absurd. You wouldnt bow to Allah under threat so dont expect us to bow to your claim under threat.

Do us a favor if you want us to listen, debate us and give us your best shot. But do not think preaching or condesending language will work here. We are not afraid of what you have to say and free thinking does not respond to threats. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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soccerfreak141 wrote:

soccerfreak141 wrote:
Dear People (whoever you are), Now it is my turn to give you a piece of the truth and try to free you all from the mind disorder known as Atheism.

Ok but I have to warn you that you are going to have to offer some proof...

Quote:
My first "general question" is how do you explain the existence of the universe?

That is a whole field of scientific study for that I suggest you research what they say as I do not have any degrees on the subject.

Quote:
-It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God). There had to have been something from the beginning, nothing can come from nothing, so there always had to be something (do you follow?)

I would say it is irrational to assume it was, I need to see so proof when you make a claim about the existence of something and the workings of reality. You are confused or misinformed about most of our positions on the subject. Who here has said everything came from nothing? You also are assuming everything has to have a beginning which I would be careful about as that implies something did come from nothing.

Quote:
Also I ask, "WHY ARE U TRYING TO SEND PPL TO HELL?????" HELL is a torturous demon possessed non- stop firery inferno meant to torture those who have sinned against God and haven't received the FREE gift of eternal life through God's son- Jesus Christ.

In order for us to be trying to send someone to a location we would first have to believe such a place exists. Since no one is saying they believe in hell we aren't trying to send them there.

Quote:
Instead of FREEING humanity as you say, you are actually condemning them...which is the least HUMANE thing you could possibly do to a fellow human being.

You aren't seeing things from our point of view. We are not convinced those ideas are true or convinced they are all false. If we don't take the ideas as fact then we will see the rules or organization supporting the rules as hindering freedoms.

Quote:
And I would like to comment on your the examples of how many ppl God killed vs. Satan...God killed those ppl b/c they disobeyed him, God has the right to do that b/c he created us in the first place-

So if I have kids or create life somehow I have a right to kill or massacre them for not following my rules?

Quote:
he loves evey single one of us (and I knowyou're wondering, then why would he kill a person he loves)...but first let me ask you a question also, "Do you think that if there were a God, would you want one that you were able to understand???? NO- we don't fully understand him and that's why he gets to be called...GOD (makes perfect logical sense).

What if I said yes? BTW your statement doesn't even look at logic and gives no reasons for the logical steps that would be involved in a conclusion as large as that.

Quote:
Next, I would leave you with a few verses and I pray that you will pay close attention to them: " For we have known and BELIEVED the love that God has or us. God is love and he who abides in love, abides in God, and God in him. Love has been perfected among us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgement b/c as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear because fear involves torment. He who fears has not been made perfect in love. We love him because he FIRST loved us." - 1 John 4: 16-19

Why do you assume these words mean anything to us or we haven't heard them before?

Quote:
I hope your minds are changed about what you are doing, Jesus doesn't want any of you to go to Hell and neither do I.

Well then to bad nether of you gives us proof to believe such ideas.

Quote:
The central part of our faith in Jesus Christ is trust and hope in a love so divine as you have just read in the passage above.

You see there is were we differ. You think things like faith, trust, hope, and love are good bases for knowledge. Most, if not all, here do not think these are good ways to find knowledge.

Quote:
Why do turn away from the God who loves you unconditionally?

Why are you assuming all these things and expect us to? Also it isn't that I turn away from a idea of god it is that I don't believe in such an idea. I am not hating god I am not seeing proof for its existence and with some ideas of god realizing the idea cannot logically exist.


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Ophios wrote: Quote: -It

Ophios wrote:

Quote:
-It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God).

Polytheists think you're an asshat.

 lol clapping

 


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Symok wrote: Ophios

Symok wrote:
Ophios wrote:

Quote:
-It is Irrational to believe even for a moment that it WASN'T made by a- no excuse me- THE God who lives and will forever (that's why he's called God).
Polytheists think you're an asshat.

lol clapping

It's true. And if I was a polytheist, I would hate these "one true god" creationists too.

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I have a few questions.  If

I have a few questions.  If this is a site for promoting atheism, why does it seem like main objective of rational responders is to disprove only the Christian God? If this were about atheism why aren't the Buddhist, Wiccan, Shinto, animist, satanist, or Muslim gods being disproven? And why is the blasphemy challenge only set up to send people to the Christian hell?


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Chibo-ezze wrote: I have a

Chibo-ezze wrote:
I have a few questions. If this is a site for promoting atheism, why does it seem like main objective of rational responders is to disprove only the Christian God?

 

Becuase most of us are in the US, and the christians seems to like shoving their god down all other american's throats. 

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That's not a very rational

That's not a very rational response at all. 


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Chibo-ezze wrote: I have a

Chibo-ezze wrote:
I have a few questions. If this is a site for promoting atheism, why does it seem like main objective of rational responders is to disprove only the Christian God? If this were about atheism why aren't the Buddhist, Wiccan, Shinto, animist, satanist, or Muslim gods being disproven? And why is the blasphemy challenge only set up to send people to the Christian hell?

 This being an American site populated predominantly with Americans, it's hardly surprising that the overwhelming focus is on christianity.  However if you dig around a little you'll find many many arguments that can be directed at any faith-based belief in the supernatural. 

 BTW Buddhism doesn't really count since Buddhists don't really make any claim about the supernatural or a Creator god.  They do make unfounded claims that people can achieve some transcendant state of consciousness through meditation, but there is certainly no moral imperative to do this implied in Buddhist teachings.  Buddhists are saying "we think this is a better way to live and we recommend it to you."  If christians held themselves to this level of rhetoric, there'd be a lot less suffering in the world.  Unfortunately, followers of the Abrahamic god have a much different message:  "do as we say or burn in hell".  

 Also, just to correct your language, no one is disproving any gods here.  That is impossible.  What we are doing is defeating (over and over and over) attempts by theists to prove their gods exist.  We've also shown that many (most?) of the claims made by theists about their gods are illogical, so if you think that illogical things can't exist, you might agree that we've disproved those particular models of god.  But we really haven't, since logic doesn't define the universe, only our understanding of it.  What has been shown is that a supernatural god can't be known, in any sense of the word. 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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Chibo-ezze wrote: That's

Chibo-ezze wrote:
That's not a very rational response at all.

Too bad, that's how it is. Frankly, I wouldn't give a damn about christians. You know, meeting people would be like. 

 "Hi!"
"Hi!"
"Oh, you a christian?"
"Ya, and you?" 
"An atheist."
"Really,  ok!"
(And the conversation continues)
 

 but nooooo. It ends up being like this.

"Hi!" 
"Hi! I'm a christian, and I want you to vote for this guy because this guy gives head to Jesus."
"That seems unfair, voting for someone just because they are christian, why don't you vote based on more important things, like will the guy listen to your concerns, ask yourself, 'does this guy want in the office so he can start a holy war to get oil?', I feel that's more important then 'Does he love Jesus?"
"Oh, what are you, one of those atheists?"
"Well, yes."
"ZOMFG!!1! Teh evil atheist of teh evil scientific athiest illuminati!!! How dare you push your science on me... I'll go on my computer and tell everyone I meet you. You immoral idiots, you can't be trusted and you should be institutionalized. You and your stupid science, what has it done for us...? *Quickly uses an inhaler* NOTHING!!11!!!1!!oneeleventy!1!!!!lol"
 

The christians start becoming vile, lazy, dishonest, and soo complacent that they start thinking it's okay to force their god upon everyone, That's enough to raise a warning flag. but when they become soo lazy, that they believe everything they have heard about atheists and charge onto fourms throwing insults. Sooo stupid, they start chanting Pascal's wager (Not even doing research, finding out how stupid it is.). Soooo dishonest, that they deny the existance of the sun, and DNA just to disprove evolution. Sooooo vile, that they threaten to kill people who don't agree to fellatio their god. They deserve a good lashing.

 Either the christians straighten up, or we (At the least I) will continue talking about them.

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Quote: HELL is a torturous

Quote:
HELL is a torturous demon possessed non- stop firery inferno meant to torture those who have sinned against God and haven't received the FREE gift of eternal life through God's son- Jesus Christ.

 

So you believe in hell. Where exactly is hell? Christians talk about hell a lot but none can tell me where it is. Is it deep within the earth as it says in the bible? If we drill miles into the earth will we hit hell?

Not only can't Christians tell me where hell is, but I've never heard a convincing reason for why hell exists. Why would a "loving" god make a place where people are tortured for eternity?

You believe god can do anything, right? So why did he create mankind and then give us free will to choose to either believe in him or be tortured for eternity? Why give us the choice to be either good or bad? Why not just make us all good to begin with? Afterall, he's god. He can do whatever he wants. Why create us just to torture us? What's the point?

And not only does he threaten us with eternal torture, but he supposedly writes a book with talking animals and flying zombies and confusing contradictions and mysterious symbolism that makes it impossible for a thinking person to find it believable. Yet, if he doesn't believe he'll burn forever in a lake of fire.

And to make it all even more unbelievable, God makes himself invisible. He hides from us and then demands that we believe in him. It's almost like he's playing some kind of sadistic game with us.

So basically god hides from us, writes a confusing and unbelievable book, and then tortures us for eternity if we don't believe in him.

Maybe you should take some time to stand back from Christianity for a minute and instead of using your beliefs and emotions, use your intelligence. Use your rational mind to see what Christianity is really asking us to believe. If you do that, you may see just how totally absurd it all really is.

 

Rick



 

 

 

Frosty's coming back someday. Will you be ready?


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Well put arguements both of

Well put arguements both of you.  First of Tilberian my mistake for using Buddhism as an example. I was actually intending to use Hinduism but that's besides the point. 

So we live in America and that's why the focus is the Christian God....fair enough I'll accept that.  However I have read through many of the forums and blogs and all else and I'm pretty confident that 95% of what I read was directed towards Christianity while comments directed towards others were very few and far between...but even that's besides the point. 

So the Christian model of God is illogical and so this site is partially designed to bring logical questions to an illogical God in order to disuade belief or potential belief; But the universe itself is illogical and only has aspects that can be proven logically to ease our understanding.  Yet we believe in the illogical universe?  Why not design a website to bring logical arguements against something more tangible, that's illogical, like the universe? 

As far as the example of Christians responding to your atheist identification of yourself, Ophios, I think it's a bit exaggerated.  I myself have seen a few Christians with that approach to unbelief but for the most part my observations have been totally opposite.  A response like that one is usually due to some sort of insult made towards their God, which however "fleshly" it may be is a reaction that is similar to someone talking about their mother. 

I've noticed something interesting in my research of Christianity. I've seen that many men in the Bible didn't have to prove anything to anyone about their God.  There was no preaching about hell and brimstone to kings.  They just behaved according to the patterns that God had showed them and nations around them saw the God they served prove Himself. So maybe it's not so much that their God isn't real but maybe it's because like Tilberian said, people don't know/understand their God?  And if that's the case then what is Christianity to do?

I also wanted to respond quickly to the post under Ophios's reply. What you can and cannot see shouldn't determine you faith in anything.  If you look up at the sky at night and see stars, do you know that the light that you're seeing is millions or even billions of years old? So what you see tells you that there is a star there but in actuality, that star could have been destroyed millions of years ago.

Also, is your life living torture right now? Seeing as you have access to the internet and free time to discuss in forums I would guess no.  Hell was never made for people.  It was made for the devil and his angels.  I've read all of this stuff myself.  It says expressly that God's will is that all men might be saved.  I guess to sum up my chatter, the mysterious symbols and images are all meant to be understood.  Even in that as I said before; the men that knew their God were told the meanings of the things they didn't understand.  So maybe it's not that they can be understood; maybe it's that it's not meant to be thought through. Maybe we're supposed to get to know this God like those dudes in the Bible and then He'll tell us.


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Chibo-ezze wrote: But the

Chibo-ezze wrote:
But the universe itself is illogical

What in the name of Peter Lorre are you talking about?

Chibo-ezze wrote:
Also, is your life living torture right now? Seeing as you have access to the internet and free time to discuss in forums I would guess no.

did I ever say it was? I'm more concerned about the rights set by the founding fathers right now.

Chibo-ezze wrote:
What you can and cannot see shouldn't determine you faith in anything.

As if seeing was the only thing humans can do. Of course what I see doesn't have a direct determination to what I believe. I just need satisfactory evidence!

Chibo-ezze wrote:
If you look up at the sky at night and see stars, do you know that the light that you're seeing is millions or even billions of years old?

Well ya! We know this becuase we can determine how far stars are, and how fast light can travel.

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  The parts that you don't

  The parts that you don't understand were responses to comments made by Tilberian and RickRebel.  They don't apply to the responses you made to me.


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Chibo-ezze wrote:

Chibo-ezze wrote:

I also wanted to respond quickly to the post under Ophios's reply. What you can and cannot see shouldn't determine you faith in anything. If you look up at the sky at night and see stars, do you know that the light that you're seeing is millions or even billions of years old? So what you see tells you that there is a star there but in actuality, that star could have been destroyed millions of years ago.

First of all, it would have nothing to do with having 'faith' in anything - faith (in the religious sense) is about belief without evidence. If you can clearly see something, then faith should not be involved, unless its perhaps its 'faith' that you can generally trust the evidence of your eyes.

Of course most people here would understand the possibility that those stars may no longer exist, even tho we know they certainly did exist once - that knowledge was arrived at by the process of scientific enquiry, the same process that has shown zero evidence of God...

So thank you for agreeing with us that the process of science is necessary to understand the true nature of reality, despite how it may appear to our naked senses, as well as to our un-trained understanding.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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   Then why did Einstein

   Then why did Einstein himself say that he spent his entire life trying to disprove God only to find that alls he did was prove God was real?


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Chibo-ezze wrote: The

Chibo-ezze wrote:
The parts that you don't understand were responses to comments made by Tilberian and RickRebel. They don't apply to the responses you made to me.

 

The only part I didn't get was the universe is illogocal.

 

Maybe you should explain this. 

 

Chibo-ezze wrote:
Then why did Einstein himself say that he spent his entire life trying to disprove God only to find that alls he did was prove God was real?

Can you explain this too? To my knowledge he didn't spend his time trying to disprove his idea of a diest god, he was busy (to the point of obsession) with his science work.

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Chibo-ezze wrote:    Then

Chibo-ezze wrote:
   Then why did Einstein himself say that he spent his entire life trying to disprove God only to find that alls he did was prove God was real?

Einstein never said this, and even if he did, it would be nothing more than an appeal to authority.

Einstein did however have this to say, "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
"

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. - Richard Dawkins

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You should research some of

You should research some of these guys and see their opinions of creation/God/etc: Astrophysicist George Smoot,  astronomer Robert Jastrow, Roger Penrose, Fred Hoyle, NASA astronomer John O’Keefe.  As for Einstein's quote, just because he doesn't believe in his own personal God doesn't mean that He didn't believe in God: "the harmony of natural law reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish"

"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being" 

These are all from Einstein.

 


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   Again this is not me,

   Again this is not me, by any means, trying to convert anyone but presenting what I have seen in my research of the topic.


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More Einstein: I cannot

More Einstein:

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance-but for us, not for God.

 and:

The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere.

and:

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

and:

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion.

Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

Do you really understand how little his concept of 'God' corresponds to anything meaningfully corresponding to the God of the Abrahamic religions in particular, in anything much beyond the three letters?

 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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 Again it may not be a

 Again it may not be a belief in a personal God, and/or Abrahamic God, but the fact that a man would have "a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit"  shows the acknowledgment of some supernatural being.  This man, as we all are, was very careful with his word choice.  One doesn't just throw the word "spirit" into a religious response unless knowing what the word means in that context. 

What about the other scientists?


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Chibo-ezze wrote: So the

Chibo-ezze wrote:

So the Christian model of God is illogical and so this site is partially designed to bring logical questions to an illogical God in order to disuade belief or potential belief; But the universe itself is illogical and only has aspects that can be proven logically to ease our understanding.  Yet we believe in the illogical universe?  Why not design a website to bring logical arguements against something more tangible, that's illogical, like the universe? 

The universe is entirely logical.  Give me an example of something illogical that exists.

Of course, we are putting the cart before the horse.  The universe is logical because humans have built logic so that it is useful in this universe.  Logic is based on math, and math is drawn from geometry which refers to the structure of the universe.  Logic is our attempt to discipline our minds so that they provide useful conclusions about the universe that can be shared between people. 

If we ever found something illogical in the universe (like a square circle, for instance) we would of course have to revisit our model of logic.

Chibo-ezze wrote:
  

 I've noticed something interesting in my research of Christianity. I've seen that many men in the Bible didn't have to prove anything to anyone about their God.  There was no preaching about hell and brimstone to kings.  They just behaved according to the patterns that God had showed them and nations around them saw the God they served prove Himself.

Since the patterns OT god "showed" them involved slaughtering their enemies and establishing a totalitarian theocracy, it is unsurprising that they succeeded in that barbaric time.  While other armies might have been prevented, through simple human compassion, from killing every last woman and child of their defeated enemy, the armies of the Lord went to battle prepared with a "justified" road map for genocide.  Needless to say, this made it a lot easier to hold captured territory - none of the natives were left alive to fight back!

In the NT, christians took a different but also highly effective political approach that had nothing in particular to do with god.  Jesus and friends were unusual (perhaps unique) in admitting anyone, regardless of race, wealth, class or nationality into their new religion.  This inclusiveness was unheard of in an era when your religion flowed necessarily from your family and social connections.  Early populism - a powerful political tool but not necessarily connected to the divine influence of god in any way.

So, as usual, it wasn't god proving himself but rather his followers proving themselves and attributing it to god. 

 

Chibo-ezze wrote:
  

 So maybe it's not so much that their God isn't real but maybe it's because like Tilberian said, people don't know/understand their God?  And if that's the case then what is Christianity to do?

Admit that if there is a god, they don't know any more about him/her/it than anyone else and fold up their tents!  And, further, to admit that their unknowable, undetectable, irrational god has no place in rational discourse and to excuse themselves from matters that demand it, like politics and science. 

 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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Quote: Give me an example

Quote:
Give me an example of something illogical that exists.

bill O'rly