Global Warming

Knight
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Global Warming

A few days ago, I started discussing global warming with a die-hard Catholic. He is determined to say that it is nothing but propoganda, and that I should be more rational to not just accept things because someone told me they were true (a bit hypicritical, if you ask me...). I said that no scientist in the right state of mind disputes that global warming is happening, and he brushed it off by saying it's a normal trend that our Earth is going through.

His arrogance really annoyed me, but I want to know if I'm in the wrong. Would you guys say that global warming is happening? I believe very deeply that it is, but I would like to see some more opinions, backed up by facts. I can post links leading to sites that help support global warming if needed.

I honestly don't see how people can think that billions of people have no effect on the planet we live on. They blame global warming on some sun cycle. Is this adequate?

Thanks in advance!

 


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It's extremely irrational.

It's extremely irrational. Usually the same people that deny global warming also deny evolution.

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Cpt_pineapple
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 Watch The Great Global

 Watch The Great Global Swindle

 

 Mars is also getting hotter. Are martians using SUVs?

 

 


Knight
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I watched the first ten

I watched the first ten minutes, and stopped because it kept making claims without supporting them.

 "Global Warmig has become like a religion"

"Many people will be without jobs"

 "It's not the scientific way"

 Global Warming is more than a theory, as the movie depicts it. 

 

Quote:
Mars is also getting hotter. Are martians using SUVs?

 Mars may have other reasons for heating up that we are unaware of. However, even IF the Sun is causing Mars to heat up a little bit (And I'd like a source that's not over an hour long, please. I don't have that much free time), how can we as humans not be having any effect on our planet, especially since we consume so much?

 

 


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If it calls it a "theory" as

If it calls it a "theory" as a method of attack, the source is totally ignorant of science and not worth the time.

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Yeah, this is the same type

Yeah, this is the same type of dismissal of science and evidence, replaced by paranoid conspiracy theories, that you see from creationists. People who have absolutely no expertise in the area hear something and repeat it as if they are educated on all the relevant data and the actual scientists must not have considered things as carefully as they have. I love how they say, "The earth goes through normal periods/cycles of getting warmer and cooler" as if they have some intimate knowledge of the climate that climatologists and meteorologists are completely unaware of and haven't bothered to consider in their findings. The arrogance of these people, thinking they are better informed than the educated experts, is truly mindboggling.

Ask your Catholic friend if he has bothered to inform the scientific community of his astounding observation. Maybe he his holding onto just the precise piece of data they have been overlooking in their years of research.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


Cpt_pineapple
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Knight wrote:

Knight wrote:

I watched the first ten minutes, and stopped because it kept making claims without supporting them.

"Global Warmig has become like a religion"

"Many people will be without jobs"

"It's not the scientific way"

Global Warming is more than a theory, as the movie depicts it.

I bolded/underlined the part that explains why you haven't seen them support the claims

 

Quote:

Quote:
Mars is also getting hotter. Are martians using SUVs?

Mars may have other reasons for heating up that we are unaware of. However, even IF the Sun is causing Mars to heat up a little bit (And I'd like a source that's not over an hour long, please. I don't have that much free time), how can we as humans not be having any effect on our planet, especially since we consume so much?

 

Mars Earth may have other reasons for heating up that we are not aware of

 

[edit:added underline] 


Knight
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Quote: I bolded/underlined

Quote:
I bolded/underlined the part that explains why you haven't seen them support the claims

 I'm going to be as nice as I can. If you say the claims are supported, can you please provide me with evidence so I don't have to try and connect your dots? Global Warming is an observed fact, and if you want to disprove it, can you please at least give me the exact time-frame in the movie where global warming is disproved? 

Also, I'd like a detailed paragraph or more on who made that video and why, please. What experience do those scientists have? What degree do they have and how much study have they given to global warming?

Quote:
  Earth may have other reasons for heating up that we are not aware of

Um, dude, we can observe the Earth up-close and personal. We have broken up pieces of the Arctic and Antarctic ice to get information on what the composition of the atmosphere was (measured by the amount of particles in the ice, though I'm not an expert in the EXACT science of it.). However, I know that it has shown us the changes in CO2 and other gases.

 Of course, there are many more methods that scientists use to prove global warming. This is just one example. However, we do not have easy access to Mars. We may know that it is getting hotter, but that doesn't mean anything. Why isn't Venus getting hotter? If it was more than just Mars, why only make a big deal about Mars? Mars is FARTHER AWAY from the sun than Earth is. Venus is closer, as is Mercury. Wouldn't we notice an even more dramatic change in their temperature? Theoretically (*gasp, I said something with "theory" in it), we would. 


Cpt_pineapple
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Knight wrote: Quote: I

Knight wrote:

Quote:
I bolded/underlined the part that explains why you haven't seen them support the claims

I'm going to be as nice as I can. If you say the claims are supported, can you please provide me with evidence so I don't have to try and connect your dots? Global Warming is an observed fact, and if you want to disprove it, can you please at least give me the exact time-frame in the movie where global warming is disproved?

Also, I'd like a detailed paragraph or more on who made that video and why, please. What experience do those scientists have? What degree do they have and how much study have they given to global warming?

I already watched it. If you don't want to that's not my problem.

I'll give you an example from the film: As it gets hotter, the oceans heat up, releasing more CO2 into the atmosphere, since it's harder to dissolve CO2 when it's hot.

 

Watch the film for more. 

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
Earth may have other reasons for heating up that we are not aware of

Um, dude, we can observe the Earth up-close and personal. We have broken up pieces of the Arctic and Antarctic ice to get information on what the composition of the atmosphere was (measured by the amount of particles in the ice, though I'm not an expert in the EXACT science of it.). However, I know that it has shown us the changes in CO2 and other gases.

Of course, there are many more methods that scientists use to prove global warming. This is just one example. However, we do not have easy access to Mars. We may know that it is getting hotter, but that doesn't mean anything. Why isn't Venus getting hotter? If it was more than just Mars, why only make a big deal about Mars? Mars is FARTHER AWAY from the sun than Earth is. Venus is closer, as is Mercury. Wouldn't we notice an even more dramatic change in their temperature? Theoretically (*gasp, I said something with "theory" in it), we would.

 Venus is getting hotter. If Mars is farther from the sun, wouldn't that mean that Earth will have a greater change than Mars? 

Don't treat me like some fundie.  


qbg
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Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Watch The Great Global Swindle

What do you think of the many criticisms/responses to it? 

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
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qbg wrote: Cpt_pineapple

qbg wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Watch The Great Global Swindle

What do you think of the many criticisms/responses to it?

 

links? 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Watch The Great Global Swindle

C'mon, that documentary is as scientific as a creationist book on evolution.  It's so much easier to prove one's case when only part of the data is presented.

The most blatent piece of propaganda was the sun chart.  For some reason the chart just ended in 1980 as if that was the last year data was collected.  To nobody's surprise when the rest of the chart is viewed it reveals a much different result, that the sun's effect on the Earth remains constant while the temperature greatly increases.

When climate change deniers have to rely on lies and pseudoscience it just proves they have no facts to base their case on. 


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I watched that movie, I

I watched that movie, I believe.  I don't know, I'm kind of in the middle of this one.  I mean, sure, there is evidence that the Earth is getting a little warmer.  Does that mean that the ice caps will melt off and it will cause the Earth to die in the future?  I don't think so.  I'm not sure if it was in that movie, or another, but they presented a chart of the world temperature throughout history.  During the middle ages there was a time called the "little ice age" where temperatures were at an all time low.  And there was another before it where temperatures were higher.  I think it's just a natural part on how the earth's climate works.  I'm no scientist however.

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Honestly, I'm still not

Honestly, I'm still not totally convinced that global warming is happening.  I mean, the earth is getting hotter, but it's been scientifically observed that the earth goes through cycles of the earth heating up and cooling down.  The hottest year on record is 1934 - not 1998, as some folks say.  They certainly weren't driving SUVs back then. 

30 years ago, there was a similar media scare - global cooling.  If you didn't believe in global cooling in the 1970's, you were labelled a brainwashed conservative who probably thought the earth was also flat.  Now we know that it was all bullshit.  Sound familiar?  


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: qbg

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
qbg wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Watch The Great Global Swindle

What do you think of the many criticisms/responses to it?

 

links? 


You can start with this

"What right have you to condemn a murderer if you assume him necessary to "God's plan"? What logic can command the return of stolen property, or the branding of a thief, if the Almighty decreed it?"
-- The Economic Tendency of Freethought


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jmm wrote:

jmm wrote:

30 years ago, there was a similar media scare - global cooling. If you didn't believe in global cooling in the 1970's, you were labelled a brainwashed conservative who probably thought the earth was also flat. Now we know that it was all bullshit. Sound familiar?

From the link qbg posted:

"It has been well-established in the scientific literature that the period of cooling that was most evident over North America and Europe between about 1940 and 1976 was largely due to increased concentrations of aerosols (particularly sulphates) released into the atmosphere by industrial processes, such as the combustion of coal. These aerosols lowered the amount of solar radiation reaching the Earth’s surface, for instance by scattering sunlight. The concentrations of these aerosols have been shown to be highest in the Northern Hemisphere, close to their industrial sources. A paper by David Stern, published in the journal ‘Chemosphere’ in 2005, showed that sulphurous emissions around the world increased sharply between 1945 and about 1989, since when they have declined markedly. Sulphuruous emissions peaked in North America and Europe during the 1970s."

When the stories of climate change were hitting the papers in Alaska the scientists at my old university (UAF) pondered why the Antarctic was heating up faster than the Arctic. It was pointed out that the pollution in the North was blocking the sunlight from hitting the ice.

In Michael Moore's Bowling For Columbine he made reference to how smoggy LA used to be and how it's been cleaned up. The simple fact the scientists are talking about global cooling anymore is because the pollution that was causing the cooling has been cleaned up.

Global warming deniers use the same methods as the creationists. They pick and choose which information they'll promote and disregard any evidence after the fact. 


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After viewing the link, I

After viewing the link, I went back on the fence with global warming.

 

Climate change is a complex process that involves many factors, so it is unkown how signifigant human interaction will be.  CO2 makes up a small percentage of our atmosphere where as Venus is about 96% CO2.


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To my understanding, the

To my understanding, the deal with other planets heating up is fully known. The issue is that those planets naturally have great amounts of greenhouse gasses, and so this is normal. Heating and cooling periods do indeed happen on Earth, but normally it's able to self-regulate to keep things from getting out of hand. There has been no denial that the Earth goes through warming periods, what makes this different is that we are outside of normal range and it looks like it may go out of control.

 The deniers like to point out things like the medieval warming while leaving out the fact that it was restricted to a particular region (Europe) while the rest of the planet stayed relatively normal.

It should really raise some red flags when there are really no scientists coming out against climate change. The others tend to play on the idea that scientists can't be trusted, that they are somehow consipiring for money. The fact is, however, that most of this data came in while scientists were studying other things and found the data almost accidentally. It just makes no sense to suggest that they have missed something obvious, are conspiring, or even that they're just nodding their heads with their peers to save face. For starters, the financial risk was with coming out with this data - scientists lost jobs because of it, and scientists do NOT make carreers by simply agreeing with everything.

If a scientist came out with solid evidence against climate change, it would make that person much much more rich and famous than simply agreeing and moving on. 


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ABx wrote: It should

ABx wrote:

It should really raise some red flags when there are really no scientists coming out against climate change. The others tend to play on the idea that scientists can't be trusted, that they are somehow consipiring for money. The fact is, however, that most of this data came in while scientists were studying other things and found the data almost accidentally. It just makes no sense to suggest that they have missed something obvious, are conspiring, or even that they're just nodding their heads with their peers to save face. For starters, the financial risk was with coming out with this data - scientists lost jobs because of it, and scientists do NOT make carreers by simply agreeing with everything.

If a scientist came out with solid evidence against climate change, it would make that person much much more rich and famous than simply agreeing and moving on.

 

O RLY? 


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Pineapple, you posted a

Pineapple, you posted a link from wikipedia, which clearly says:

Quote:
This is an incomplete list, which may never be able to satisfy certain standards for completeness.
Revisions and sourced additions are welcome.
 
Anyone can edit it. Therefore, it is not accurate. Can you please find a source more reliable than wikipedia? If you can, I promise I'll read it more.  


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Knight wrote: Pineapple,

Knight wrote:

Pineapple, you posted a link from wikipedia, which clearly says:

Quote:
This is an incomplete list, which may never be able to satisfy certain standards for completeness.
Revisions and sourced additions are welcome.

Anyone can edit it. Therefore, it is not accurate. Can you please find a source more reliable than wikipedia? If you can, I promise I'll read it more.

 

A blog of a Nir Shaviv

 

BBC news article 

 

BTW, click on the reference numbers to view the source. Some of those scientists have such sourcees. 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: After

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

After viewing the link, I went back on the fence with global warming. 

Climate change is a complex process that involves many factors, so it is unkown how signifigant human interaction will be. CO2 makes up a small percentage of our atmosphere where as Venus is about 96% CO2.

The fact that CO2 makes up so little of the atmosphere just shows that a tiny percentage increase can have a great effect.  There is very little ozone in the atmosphere too but it manages to protect all life on the planet and the Aussies noticed the giant holes above their nation.


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Please, someone link me to

Please, someone link me to some evidence that our current climate change is manmade.  Don't just keep talking about how it's getting warmer, because everyone knows that.  Tell me why it's getting warmer.  Is it a natural cycle, or is it something we've contributed to?

I really am interested in this topic, by the way.  It just seems like the argument always goes:

Liberal:  Global warming is real, and it's our fault!

Conservative:  Nah.

Yet no one gives scientific evidence that proves that the current temperature rise is a product of greenhouse gasses, i.e., our fault.     


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Quote: Please, someone link

Quote:
Please, someone link me to some evidence that our current climate change is manmade.  Don't just keep talking about how it's getting warmer, because everyone knows that.  Tell me why it's getting warmer.  Is it a natural cycle, or is it something we've contributed to?

I really am interested in this topic, by the way.  It just seems like the argument always goes:

Liberal:  Global warming is real, and it's our fault!

Conservative:  Nah.

Yet no one gives scientific evidence that proves that the current temperature rise is a product of greenhouse gasses, i.e., our fault.

 I disagree. There is plenty of evidence that supports global warming. Here's a good illustration that briefly explains what happens:
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/images/global_warming/ghouse_effect.jpg

 The following are a lot better. This link shows how climate change occured in the past:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/pastcc.html

This link shows current climate change:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/recentcc.html

This link shows future climate changes:

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/science/futurecc.html

And finally, here's another great website:

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html#Q1

 

If you want more proof, first take a container, put a cup of water in it, along with a thermometer, and measure the temperature. Then, (using two containers, exactly the same water and everything) put two containers outside (so they both get the same amount of sun). However, fill one container with CO2, and you will notice that the water gets warmer much faster because less sunlight can escape.

I used the greenhouse effect to make a solar cooker, and it works great. I almost got water to boil after only half an hour (it was a school project, and that's all the time we had). If the sunlight has nowhere to go, it is, obviously, trapped and therefore the earth heats up. 

 


Knight
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Still no response...does

Still no response...does that mean a forfeit in the theist side of the argument? It's been well over a week.

*Sigh* awe well...I suppose that a theist doesn't usually admit defeat.  I just presented a bunch of evidence, and not even a single comment on it. Maybe there's not much else to say. I wanted to know why people think Global Warming isn't real. I presented evidence as to how we know it's real, and that's when the debate stopped. That saddens me, as that theist probably still believes global warming is a myth, but will now go back into hiding and deny that it exists, despite the evidence. Hey, we never know. Maybe "God" planted evidence of Global Warming and is threatening civilization and nature as a punishment...just like he planted evidence of dino fossils...

 :roll: I honestly don't get it. 

/rant. I appologize for it. I just started school again, so my stress levels have been raised. Smiling  

 


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Knight wrote: Still no

Knight wrote:

Still no response...does that mean a forfeit in the theist side of the argument? It's been well over a week.

*Sigh* awe well...I suppose that a theist doesn't usually admit defeat. I just presented a bunch of evidence, and not even a single comment on it. Maybe there's not much else to say. I wanted to know why people think Global Warming isn't real. I presented evidence as to how we know it's real, and that's when the debate stopped. That saddens me, as that theist probably still believes global warming is a myth, but will now go back into hiding and deny that it exists, despite the evidence. Hey, we never know. Maybe "God" planted evidence of Global Warming and is threatening civilization and nature as a punishment...just like he planted evidence of dino fossils...

:roll: I honestly don't get it.

/rant. I appologize for it. I just started school again, so my stress levels have been raised. Smiling

 

I work 2 jobs, and I'm working on my Master's degree.  I don't really have the time or desire to sort through hours worth of scientific material in my leisure time right now, which is sparse.  If I get a weekend off soon I'll take an in depth look at it.  


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Here's a couple of

Here's a couple of extensive websites (I'd say articles, but they're more than that) that address almost all the criticisms/denials of climate change:

Climate Change: A Guide for the Perplexed (24 Climate Myths, see links at bottom of page for additional sites/info):
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/dn11462

How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic (extensive, and each answer includes links to references and additional information, similar in structure to Talk Origin's page on evolution):
http://gristmill.grist.org/skeptics#Stages%20of%20Denial

 


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Quote: I work 2 jobs, and

Quote:
I work 2 jobs, and I'm working on my Master's degree.  I don't really have the time or desire to sort through hours worth of scientific material in my leisure time right now, which is sparse.  If I get a weekend off soon I'll take an in depth look at it.

 Okay, that's good.

 


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@ABx I really

@ABx

I really appriciated the link to newscientist.com. It is so rare to read such a level discussion over Global Warming.


I have to admit that in the past I wasn't convinced that Global Warming actually exists, and no I'm not a theist. Ok, I am in no way an expert. I've read about GW occassionally, and watched reports on television as well. The one thing that has always REALLY annoyed me was how it was presented; most often by flaky new reports during a summer heat wave.

In the end and after reading more about it, I do believe that Global Warming is (very) probably happening. But to what extent humans are causing it (probably), and what effects it will result in (probably not very good ones), I don't really know. And the thing is, I don't believe that anyone here or any scientist can be ABSOLUTELY certain that they know the cause and effect. As I said before I'm not an expert, but I'm smart enough to know that the study of environment change is not an exact science. And that, for me, doesn't change the importance of thier work, and the urgency to address this problem; but the absolutist rhetoric of scientist and political activist just puts me off, and throws thier credibility right out the window.

An interesting article I read a few months ago... http://www.slate.com/id/2159164/

Readiness to answer all questions is the infallible sign of stupidity. Saul Bellow, Herzog


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Global warming is happening,

Global warming is happening, but not for reasons that government-funded scientist propogate. Sure, humans have impacted it a little with greenhouse gasses, but there have been studies that show that the temperatures of the sun's surface and the Earth have heated up and cooled down in sinch with each other, with little to no impact from global warming. Global warming is happening, but it is just the Earth's natural cycle. And yes, I do believe in evolution, so Shizzle ain't ot no shizzle on me! Sticking out tongue


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http://www.hillsdale.edu/news

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis.asp


**I usually don't like to just follow links on forums, so I know you might not...but I got this in a magazine and it was to long to type.

My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon


Knight
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I found the IRCC document,

I found the IRCC document, at it is a wonderful read. It's basically a document put together by scientists from all over the world, all putting the data they collected onto one giant document. This is just a summary of the entire thing.

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_SPM.pdf

Here's a link where you can view the entire document in chuncks (the real thing, not a summary):

http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html

They are wonderful reads. Please take the time to at least breeze through it. Laughing out loud I had to for Biology homework, and it's very interesting.  


Knight
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Warning, idiots are present

Warning, idiots are present in the following link:

http://forums.catholic-convert.com/viewtopic.php?t=77945

Does anyone have any information on that North Pole/South Pole thing? And is it even significant?