What's so rational about evolution?

mythrys
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What's so rational about evolution?

You believe that man came from monkeys. Then why is there still monkeys? Why are humans the only 'animal' with a moral conscience? How did that evolve? How does our universe work like clockwork if there is no creator? If the earth were tilted even a little bit off where it is now, it would be either too hot or too cold for life. You believe some random explosion of cosmic goop did that?

 

Sounds irrational to me! 

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Man didn't evolve from

Man didn't evolve from monkeys - apes and humans both evolved from a common apelike ancestor. Learn evolution the way it actually is, not from an apologist website. Moron.

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You atheists are very cruel

You atheists are very cruel people. I didn't attack you, but you go and call me a moron. It's very hard, but I will restrain from attacking you. Have a nice day Smiling

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Quote: You believe that man

Quote:
You believe that man came from monkeys. Then why is there still monkeys?

It's an oversimplification to say man came from monkeys, but I'll grant that we evolved from monkey or ape-like creatures.  There is no accepted model of speciation that requires the ancestral population to go extinct when a new population evolves from this.  This isn't just science, it's common sense.  Why on earth would you believe the ancestral population must go extinct?  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopatric_speciation

 

Quote:
Why are humans the only 'animal' with a moral conscience?

Are they?  This is not rhetorical, I am seriously asking you.  Are they?  If you've ever owned a pet, it is crystal clear to any but the most severely deluded that animals are perfectly capable of bonding, showing empathy, compassion, social behavior and a sense of grief and mourning at the passing of others.  The fact that they cannot express in words or language we can understand does not preclude their having at least some of the rudimentary essential elements of morality, if not full-blown morality itself.

Quote:
How does our universe work like clockwork if there is no creator?

And what of the creator?  What made the creator so complex and powerful?  You do not accept the vacuity of stating that the universe is just the way it is because it's just the way it is, but you are perfectly satisfied to believe that the creator is just the way it is because it's just the way it is. 

Quote:
If the earth were tilted even a little bit off where it is now, it would be either too hot or too cold for life.

Qualification:  Life AS WE KNOW IT, would not be sustainable.  However, something else would arise in its place.  And if that something else had something resembling intelligence, it might be asking the same question and wondering about the same observational bias of being in a universe that fits its exact needs, while the more intelligent among these something elses point out the straightforward silliness of such reasoning. 

 

 

 

 

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I don't know what you mean

I don't know what you mean by the universe working "like clockwork" but the universe takes the form that it does because there's this force called gravity that affects all objects that have mass and it pulls things toward other things.

If the tilt of the earths axis were slightly different it would affect the seasons but the planet would still be inhabitable. It would just mean the winter and summer would be more or less intense depending on which way it tilted. If it was 90 degrees that would probably be a big problem

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I figured the ancestral

I figured the ancestral population must go extinct according to Darwinism because it's "survival of the fittest". So if apes or some monkey like creature started to evolve because it needed it for survival, shouldn't the other monkeys have died off because they didn't adapt to changes?

 

For the moral conscience, I mean a sense of right and wrong. Of course animals can love and bond, but they don't know what's right or wrong. Strange example, but say two male dogs are trying to mate. (Whether you agree or disagree with homosexuality doesn't matter, it's just for the example). Would another dog come and tell them "Hey, that's wrong!" Animals don't seem to have a system of justice as do humans.

 

Nothing made the creator so complex and powerful, because no one or nothing created him- he has no beginning. He has been alive for ever, and will be alive forever.  

I'll give you the last one. I honestly don't know. Even I'm stumped sometimes. 

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mythrys wrote: You

mythrys wrote:

You atheists are very cruel people. I didn't attack you, but you go and call me a moron. It's very hard, but I will restrain from attacking you. Have a nice day Smiling

I seem to remember you from the Challenge Blasphemy forums. How's it going over there since they kicked out all the infidels?

Yes, it wasn't nice of Matt to call you a moron, but don't lump all atheist together now. I don't assume all Christians are ignorant of science just because you're showing ignorance of it.


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Prove animals don't have

Prove animals don't have morality:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3014747.stm


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mythrys wrote: I figured

mythrys wrote:
I figured the ancestral population must go extinct according to Darwinism because it's "survival of the fittest". So if apes or some monkey like creature started to evolve because it needed it for survival, shouldn't the other monkeys have died off because they didn't adapt to changes?

I am not a biologist, but it's not inconceivable that a population could still survive after a another species evolved from it. It would have to do with the environment they live in.

mythrys wrote:
Nothing made the creator so complex and powerful, because no one or nothing created him- he has no beginning. He has been alive for ever, and will be alive forever.

This is somehow easier to accept than evolution by natural selection?


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MrRage wrote: mythrys

MrRage wrote:
mythrys wrote:

You atheists are very cruel people. I didn't attack you, but you go and call me a moron. It's very hard, but I will restrain from attacking you. Have a nice day Smiling

I seem to remember you from the Challenge Blasphemy forums. How's it going over there since they kicked out all the infidels? Yes, it wasn't nice of Matt to call you a moron, but don't lump all atheist together now. I don't assume all Christians are ignorant of science just because you're showing ignorance of it.

I agree with this, I never called you a moron, I just said there was gravity. But I do think you're more than a little misinformed. 

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I was very angry when they

I was very angry when they did not allow non-Christians on the site, and I refused to go until they changed it. That was stupid, and I apologize on their behalf. I wrote an angry email saying that churches don't put a sign on the door saying 'no sinners allowed', and I also told them that if sinners could not come, then I would not come either. I want a place where everybody can come, regardless of what they believe. They immediately changed the rule and 'infidels' (and I) are allowed back.

I don't mean to lump them all together, but every atheist I have ever talked to in my life has been very nasty to me. There probably are some nice atheists out there, but I have yet to spot this elusive creature. 

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mythrys wrote: I was very

mythrys wrote:

I was very angry when they did not allow non-Christians on the site, and I refused to go until they changed it. That was stupid, and I apologize on their behalf. I wrote an angry email saying that churches don't put a sign on the door saying 'no sinners allowed', and I also told them that if sinners could not come, then I would not come either. I want a place where everybody can come, regardless of what they believe. They immediately changed the rule and 'infidels' (and I) are allowed back.

I don't mean to lump them all together, but every atheist I have ever talked to in my life has been very nasty to me. There probably are some nice atheists out there, but I have yet to spot this elusive creature.

When you talked to these other atheists in the past did you say things similar to what you said in your first post? If you did maybe you were mistaking frustration for nastiness. Because those are things you could know are wrong by reading one book.

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You complain about atheists

You complain about atheists being nasty towards you, and you post things like this on your own public weblog:

 

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Homosexuality is repulsive,vile,demonic, and fatal. And it brings bad weather.[...] sodomites should not be let free to convert men from power tools to purses. With out beating around the bush, homosexuals deserve the death penalty. But don't think I'm unkind. I love gay people; I love murderers too. I just hate their sins,[my italics]

 

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Don't let some heathen tell you that men are slobs and need to shape up. That's the feminization of America.

 

Oh no why are all those atheist being so unfriendly...!?!?!?

 

 


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No, just in general. They

No, just in general. They call me a "Jesus c*nt" and poke fun at God. Many times, I don't debate, I just share the gospel with them.

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mythrys wrote: I was very

mythrys wrote:
I was very angry when they did not allow non-Christians on the site, and I refused to go until they changed it. That was stupid, and I apologize on their behalf. I wrote an angry email saying that churches don't put a sign on the door saying 'no sinners allowed', and I also told them that if sinners could not come, then I would not come either. I want a place where everybody can come, regardless of what they believe. They immediately changed the rule and 'infidels' (and I) are allowed back.

I'm glad to hear this. Thanks for doing that.

mythrys wrote:
I don't mean to lump them all together, but every atheist I have ever talked to in my life has been very nasty to me. There probably are some nice atheists out there, but I have yet to spot this elusive creature.

Maybe it's because theist tend to go ballistic over atheists. We can be a bit defensive. Please, don't confuse bluntness with being nasty, at least on this board.


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I am attacking their SINS,

I am attacking their SINS, not the people. Notice I said Homosexuality is vile, repulsive, etc., but not the people. I wouln't care if you said what I do is moronic, but he called ME a moron.

As for calling people heathen, I am not being unkind.

From Dictionary.com: 1.an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible; a person who is neither a Jew, Christian, nor Muslim; pagan.

It just means a non believer. Some define it as "uncivilized" or evil or use it as an insult, but that is not the way in which I was using it. 

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mythrys wrote: No, just in

mythrys wrote:
No, just in general. They call me a "Jesus c*nt" and poke fun at God. Many times, I don't debate, I just share the gospel with them.

So all you did was ask "can I share the gospel with you?" and then they called you jesus cunt.

Something tells me that there's a little more to this story.

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I didn't ask, I just told

I didn't ask, I just told told them in a friendly way. And not trying to "force my beliefs" on anyone. I tell everybody that when I preach. They don't have to if they don't want to.

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Homosexuality causes bad

Homosexuality causes bad weather? Shouldn't San Francisco have the worst weather around? There must be a lot of in the closet gays in the rural midwest. Laughing out loud

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mythrys wrote: I am

mythrys wrote:

I am attacking their SINS, not the people.

 

Yet according to you, those people deserve the death penalty.

 

"No really Mr/Ms Homosexual I love you, now hush this won't hurt a bit". 


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mythrys wrote: I am

mythrys wrote:
I am attacking their SINS, not the people. Notice I said Homosexuality is vile, repulsive, etc., but not the people.

You said they deserve death. How's that only attacking their "sins?"

mythrys wrote:
As for calling people heathen, I am not being unkind. ... It just means a non believer. Some define it as "uncivilized" or evil or use it as an insult, but that is not the way in which I was using it.

We know what it means, but it does have negative connotations. You don't call persons born out of wedlock "bastards," and black persons "negros" do you?


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Ah, the plot thickens. You

Ah, the plot thickens. You left out the part where you advocate the indiscriminate murder of innocent people.

mythrys wrote:
I am attacking their SINS, not the people. Notice I said Homosexuality is vile, repulsive, etc., but not the people. I wouln't care if you said what I do is moronic, but he called ME a moron.

Yes, but you also said that homosexuals should get the death penalty. So by your standards I could say "kill christians wherever you find them" and that would be ok with you. How is calling you jesus cunt any worse than that?

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"If a man also lie with

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death..." Leviticus 20:13

Murderers should be put to death too, "Thou shalt not kill".

I agree with you on the heathens though. I guess it does have a negative sound to it. I never meant it that way though. 

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Let's see. 1. you

Let's see.

1. you misrepresent evolution

2. bunch it with abiogenisis 

3. when one person calls you a moron you say all atheists here are rude.

 

 

You deserve the moron comment.  Keep it up, you might deserve worse.

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mythrys wrote: "If a man

mythrys wrote:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death..." Leviticus 20:13

Murderers should be put to death too, "Thou shalt not kill".

I agree with you on the heathens though. I guess it does have a negative sound to it. I never meant it that way though.

The bible says lots of things that are stupid. Why not use your brain instead of a book that tells you to murder people? 

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They are not innocent.

They are not innocent. Homosexuality is a capital crime. "kill christians everywhere" would certainly scare me, but I would not be offended if they attacked my sins. So, say I looked at porno. Someone comes up and says "Hey, your action of looking at porno is evil and disgusting!" Ok, fine. But if they say, "Your a disgusting and terrible person for looking at that stuff", that would be wrong.

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If I had known you advocated

If I had known you advocated executing someone for doing something which harms nobody (as Adolph Hitler did) I would have used a stronger word than "moron."

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mythrys wrote: "If a man

mythrys wrote:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death..." Leviticus 20:13


Leviticus 11:9-12:

Quote:
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

So both homosexuality and eating shrimp are abominations. I hope you just eat plain old fish.

mythrys wrote:
Murderers should be put to death too, "Thou shalt not kill".

You got put to death for many things in the OT, like disrespecting your parents. Do you suggest we do that too?

mythrys wrote:
I agree with you on the heathens though. I guess it does have a negative sound to it. I never meant it that way though.

I understand. I'm glad you're aware of it now.


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mythrys wrote: They are not

mythrys wrote:
They are not innocent. Homosexuality is a capital crime. "kill christians everywhere" would certainly scare me, but I would not be offended if they attacked my sins. So, say I looked at porno. Someone comes up and says "Hey, your action of looking at porno is evil and disgusting!" Ok, fine. But if they say, "Your a disgusting and terrible person for looking at that stuff", that would be wrong.

Ok, but in my hypothetical worldview being a christian is a capital crime. So when I say "kill all christians and salt the earth where they live so nothing will ever grow there" I'm attacking your sin of being a christian. I'm not calling you disgusting I'm saying your actions are death worthy. 

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Murder is killing innocent

Murder is killing innocent people who are not convicted of a capital crime in court. Execution is doing justice to people who have been rightfully tried and convicted of a crime that deserves the death penalty.

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That's an old Jewish law

That's an old Jewish law that they had to honor because Jesus had not yet taken their sins, so they had to keep the law to repent and place their faith in the coming messiah. Yes, I agree with the death penalty, as long as it doesn't deal with ceremonial Jewish laws. And before you ask, yes I believe I deserve the death penalty. We all deserve hell (death) for our sins.

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mythrys wrote:

mythrys wrote:
Murder is killing innocent people who are not convicted of a capital crime in court. Execution is doing justice to people who have been rightfully tried and convicted of a crime that deserves the death penalty.

But you're not innocent in this case, you already admitted you worship jesus and that's a capital offense. So should I kill you and castrate your pets so that they never reproduce?

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That's fine. If

That's fine. If Christianity were a capital crime, and you were attacking my sin of being a Christian, and not the peson themself. Then if it's a capital crime, bring them to court, prove their guilt, and they will be justly executed. (I don't advocate driving around with a gun shooting every homo you see- trial would be necessary.)

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Homosexuality is not a

Homosexuality is not a capital crime in the US (it is in some of the more extreme Islamic countries, however.) Actually it's not a crime at all in all but the most backwards states.

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mythrys wrote:

mythrys wrote:
That's an old Jewish law that they had to honor because Jesus had not yet taken their sins, so they had to keep the law to repent and place their faith in the coming messiah. Yes, I agree with the death penalty, as long as it doesn't deal with ceremonial Jewish laws. And before you ask, yes I believe I deserve the death penalty. We all deserve hell (death) for our sins.

since you feel you deserve the death penalty, why do you call out on homosexuals specifically for deserving the death penalty, if they merely deserve it as much as you do? why do you focus on this particular sin rather than your own sins?


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mythrys wrote: That's

mythrys wrote:
That's fine. If Christianity were a capital crime, and you were attacking my sin of being a Christian, and not the peson themself. Then if it's a capital crime, bring them to court, prove their guilt, and they will be justly executed. (I don't advocate driving around with a gun shooting every homo you see- trial would be necessary.)

Ok, so in this situation do you think you deserve to die?  

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Yes. I was guilty of a

Yes. I was guilty of a capital crime, I deserve to die.


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mythrys wrote: Yes. I was

mythrys wrote:
Yes. I was guilty of a capital crime, I deserve to die.

Are you not at all bothered by the fact that I arbitrarily picked christianity to be a capital crime? Does that seem fair to you?

 

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mythrys wrote: Yes. I was

mythrys wrote:
Yes. I was guilty of a capital crime, I deserve to die.

mythrys, why do you subscribe to these barbaric and self defeating beliefs?


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mythrys wrote: Yes. I was

mythrys wrote:
Yes. I was guilty of a capital crime, I deserve to die.

 

if this is the case, why do you call out on homosexuals specifically for deserving the death penalty, if they merely deserve it as much as you do?


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Because I have been

Because I have been forgiven by Jesus for my sins. He takes the punishment for you. If a capital offender were to repent, then he doesn't get the death penalty any more. He still deserves it, but hes forgiven and sincerely sorry. 

I focused on this sin because we were talking about it. I don't particularly hate gays or anything. Do you want me to focus on my own sins? I'm a sinful person.

I have looked at pornography , I have used vulgar language and still do if I am very angry. I have disrespected my mom many times and disobeyed her. I have used the name of God in vain. I have had other gods besides the real god. I have looked at a woman with lust MANY times. I have lied, cheated, and stolen. I have been envious of other people. I don't always put God first in my life. I sometimes want to hurt other people. I cheat on tests.  

 

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In that world, it is a

In that world, it is a captial crime. It seems fair in your hypothetical situation. I may not like it, but I admit it's fair.

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That's funny. I was going to

That's funny. I was going to put in my reply "don't think I'm an emo self hating person or something", but I took it out. No, it's not barbaric. I certainly would try to escape, and I would not WANT to die. But It would be a fair punishment, regardless of whether I like it or not.

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I know it's not, but america

I know it's not, but america doesn't always follow God's laws.


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I respect your explanation,

I respect your explanation, however I still think that fundamentalists in general have a tendency to focus on the particular "sin" of homosexuality rather than other sins delineated in the Bible.  For example, I think their picket signs and hate slogans would do a whole world of good protesting, say, sins like greed and domestic violence rather than homosexuality.  I don't understand the curious fixation on homosexuality, when there is plenty of issues which could be improved upon in the world.


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I don't want to be cruel or

I don't want to be cruel or anything but you seem like you have some problems that I don't want to exacerbate so have a nice life and try not to kill anybody.

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So by that logic, God would

So by that logic, God would be more approving of the Taliban than of the United States government. I'm glad we don't follow God's law! It is barbaric!

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Gauche wrote: I don't want

Gauche wrote:
I don't want to be cruel or anything but you seem like you have some problems that I don't want to exacerbate so have a nice life and try not to kill anybody.

I agree.

mythrys, I hope you realize that threats of punishment and making you feel guilty are techniques they use to keep you in Christianity. They're trying to make it hard on you emotionally to question them. Someone seems to have done a number on you. I'm sorry.


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No, you guys have it

No, you guys have it wrong!

I don't WANT to die. But if I was a capital criminal and sat down to think about it, I would be like, "Yeah, I guess that's fair. I killed someone, I deserve the death penalty. That's the law". 

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Theist
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Joined: 2007-02-11
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You have a nice life too,

You have a nice life too, Mr. Gauche. You are talented at debating. I hope you get far in life.Laughing