Is this in the Bible?

peppermint
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Is this in the Bible?

I remember hearing on the show that in the Bible it spelled out that you could pretty much sin, rape, murder, whatever but as long as you accept JC into your heart you get a free ticket to heaven.

I explained what'd I'd heard to a friend, when a very rude second "friend" swooped in, told me was I stupid, ignorant, blah blah, he'd gone to Catholic school, Purgatory was this and that..blah blah.

He was all "bring in a quote where it says that" and then proceeded to tell me I must be mistaken with Hitler's autobiography (ha..ha..). His dumb friends in serious need of a testosterone boost got a laugh out of that one.

Ironically, he is an atheist.
Or is that not ironic? Hard to tell.

So who is right?

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


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http://www.skepticsannotatedb

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/saved.html

But as you will notice the bible says a lot of things and most of it doesn't all agree...


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Thanks, and oh I know...the

Thanks, and oh I know...the Bible is contradiction upon contradiction.


LLroomtempJ
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Skeptics Annotated

here's a long response for you:

I just went to the skeptics annotated bible website to read the article on faith/works and salvation.

Those contradictions are only contradictions when taken out of the full context in which they were initially used.

It is the equivalent to saying that I said "Killing babies is good" when my words were actually "This man would have you believe that killing babies is good". Yes those words came out of my mouth, but when taken out of context, they take on an entirely different meaning.

To answer your initial question about faith and salvation:

Yes, people are saved solely by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. However, would you say that someone is truly saved if they can freely do things that God finds detestable? Did that person ever truly know God? Or did they just claim to know God? There is a difference between someone who professes to be a christian and someone who actually is a christian.

If i were to sign up to be a libertarian tomorrow, does that make me a libertarian? In name, yes...by actions and beliefs, no. Which is a better test of what someone actually is?

This is a rough topic because the media only covers christians when the underlying motive is a mocking of God. I would question whether or not all these priests who molested little boys ever actually knew God.

Ask a random friend...and they'll tell you that they are a christian. Not because they truly believe the bible, or because they have a relationship with God, but because they believe that it is a "good thing" to be a christian in name.

And good things, in the place of God's perfection is a sin. Yes, ephesians 2 says that people are saved unto good works (as opposed to doing good works unto being saved)...yes, God does value our good works, but (edit to add the word but) if the motivation for good works is anything outside of glorifying God, then it has it's root in pride and self-assurance and God finds that detestable.

In conclusion, the world is in the state that it is in because it denies the very God of gods. It has reached a point where its teachings make the words of God sound comparatively foolish. (who waits for marriage to have sex? why should I love people who hate me? what benefit is there in serving others when doing things that benefit me will serve me greater good? etc)

Please respond in the same manner that this was given. I don't think i'm better than anyone. It is only by the grace of God that i'm am saved. I didn't do anything to deserve the relationship that I have with God...everything that I did merited an eternal death apart from him, but thank God for grace.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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LL, welcome to the board. I

LL, welcome to the board. I really like the screen name.

LLroomtempJ wrote:

Yes, people are saved solely by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. However, would you say that someone is truly saved if they can freely do things that God finds detestable? Did that person ever truly know God? Or did they just claim to know God? There is a difference between someone who professes to be a christian and someone who actually is a christian.

And that difference appears to be that some Christians actions aren't desireable, however they still get into heaven.

Accepting Jesus Christ into your life is your free ticket to rape and murder. I'll agree that God can make a judgement call on who is actually a Christian, however I don't think you or any other Christian would want that as it may be you that is refused entry into heaven.

In the bible we see two versions of God. In the OT we see a vengeaful, wrathful, angry, jealous, god full of rage and violence. In the NT we see his "son" who is merely jealous and has small doses of violence, however we do see him claiming that he is here to enforce all of the old laws (even the violent ones). So, with that... from your perspective, while the actions of the Christian serial killer don't bode well for the moral conduct of Christians, it's actually not too far fetched that God could find the serial killers actions desireable and your actions undesireable. If God is to be making a judgement call, I think you have reason to fear, especially if you can so callously claim one isn't a true Christian... maybe it is you who is not.

What assurance do you have that if God is making a judgement call on heaven entry, and that heaven entry isn't merely accepting Jesus Christ into your heart, that you are getting into heaven over a Christian serial killer who murders only abortion doctors?

Have you ever heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy? You've bordered on falling prey to it. Essentially you must realize that someone who accepts Christ into their life is a Christian, whether you find their actions "Christlike" or not. Whether you find their actions desireable they are no more or no less a Christian then you.

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Another long response.

Another long response. Please respond in the manner with which this was given.

Sapient wrote:

And that difference appears to be that some Christians actions aren't desireable, however they still get into heaven.

Accepting Jesus Christ into your life is your free ticket to rape and murder. I'll agree that God can make a judgement call on who is actually a Christian, however I don't think you or any other Christian would want that as it may be you that is refused entry into heaven.

Have you heard about the doctrine of depravity? No one is desirable. That is why salvation is seen as a gracious gift of God. No one deserves it. All sin is equally detestable in God's eyes.

Accepting Jesus is not a free ticket to murder and rape. Paul discusses this in romans 6: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

Accepting Jesus Christ is to be crucified with Christ and to be resurrected with christ. Crucifixion of the flesh (dying to the flesh) and a resurrection of the spirit (becoming alive to God).

Biblically, there is to be evidence of salvation in someone's life if they claim to be saved. If there is no evidence, then it is reasonable to question their claim.

Quote:

In the bible we see two versions of God. In the OT we see a vengeaful, wrathful, angry, jealous, god full of rage and violence. In the NT we see his "son" who is merely jealous and has small doses of violence, however we do see him claiming that he is here to enforce all of the old laws (even the violent ones).

The character of God has not changed. Jesus served as a propitiation. Which is to say that his death quenched the rightoeus vengence, righteous wrath, righteous anger and righteous jealousy of God so that we might be reconciled with God.

Accurately described, God is a holy and loving judge. Holy to the point where that which is contrary to his holy nature is objectionable and loving to the point where he provided a pardon for judgement

Quote:
Christian serial killer

there's an oxymoron for you.

Quote:
it's actually not too far fetched that God could find the serial killers actions desireable and your actions undesireable.

Quote:
What assurance do you have that if God is making a judgement call on heaven entry, and that heaven entry isn't merely accepting Jesus Christ into your heart, that you are getting into heaven over a Christian serial killer who murders only abortion doctors?

That assumes that the serial killer is blameless. That assumes that the serial killer is holy to the point where he is justified in judging the sin of those that he kills...and that is heretical blasphemy .

Quote:
If God is to be making a judgement call, I think you have reason to fear, especially if you can so callously claim one isn't a true Christian... maybe it is you who is not.

This is precisely why God gave us his word. Everything that he wanted to say to us is in the Bible. We will be judged according to what his word says and as a result of that, I can use the word of God to discern. God said that he will exalt his word above his name.

Quote:

Have you ever heard of the No True Scotsman fallacy? You've bordered on falling prey to it.

I read the article. Thanks for the information. The difference is that the word of God is exactly that...the word of God. God has spoken. He has defined what a true christian is. He has defined what a true christian looks like. He has defined the character of the heart of a true christian. The definition of a christian isn't some fuzzy cloud of contradictions, but rather it is comprosied of several concise statements...grace, mercy and faith being its foundations.

Quote:
Essentially you must realize that someone who accepts Christ into their life is a Christian, whether you find their actions "Christlike" or not. Whether you find their actions desireable they are no more or no less a Christian then you.

This is the equivalent of arguing my point about my registering as a libertarian. Profession of faith does not equal salvation.

Matthew 7:21 says this:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

And contrary to what the skeptics bible will tell you, this is not a contradiction. As i mentioned before, ephesians 2 states that we are saved unto good works. Someone who is truly saved will bear the "fruit" of doing the will of God. EDIT: How do i know the will of God? It is found in his word. It is found through being counseled by the holy spirit...which counsels in accordance with God's word.

I have reason to believe that I am saved because of what the bible says about salvation, not because of some sort of pharisaical "letter of the law" living. If i'm mistaken, then an eternity in hell is in my near future. The truth of the matter is that I doubt that i'm wrong because i have the very words of God on my side.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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You might want to read some

You might want to read some of the things posted here and elsewhere - things in the Bible where God himself ordered some pretty evil/horrific things.

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LLroomtempJ wrote: Have you

LLroomtempJ wrote:
Have you heard about the doctrine of depravity? No one is desirable. That is why salvation is seen as a gracious gift of God. No one deserves it. All sin is equally detestable in God's eyes.

Yep, Just like military boot camp, they tear you down, then build you up to follow like a good sheep.

I dont know about you but I think I am disirable, to myself and my friends and loved ones. I am not going to devalue myself on the whims of ancient mythology just because some goat hearders wrote it down. Claims is all you have backed up by circular reasoning.

I dont need to live by fear of some invisable boogie. Doing the right thing does not need to happen under fear of punishment or promise of reward.

Quote:
All sin is equally detestable in God's eyes.

No it isnt.

No one today gets stoned to death for adultry. No one is forced to marry the woman they rape today. You obviously only see what you want to see in the Bible.

God clearly says that all can be saved no matter what they have done as long as they ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus.

HOWEVER, the biggest "sin" of all is denying the holy spirit. That is a bigger "sin" than pediophilia and rape. Otherwise death row inmates wouldnt be offered a preacher and a chance at redemtion.

Now I am going to say it, "I deny the holy spirit" I realy do. It is a made up concept and nothing but fiction.

Now, do you think I should burn forever for saying, "I deny the holy spirit?" I dispise pediophiles and rapists. But "The holy spirit is a work of fiction" That statement alone has no chance of reversal according to the Bible.

You are buying into a mental mind scam. You have a authoritarian head charicture whom you cant qeustion or dissent from. In reality we are allowed to love or not love the people we chose. But with all modern monotheism if you die without believing in that deity you will burn. That is not love freely given.

I was married once. I got divorced because she wanted a divorce. I let her go because she has her own brain. I didnt threaten to beat her up if she didnt come back.

Your god is an evil construct invented by humans used for mind control. If this god were really real I would want no part of it.

Your god will torture me forever if I refuse to love him or dont believe in his existance. I dont respond to tyranical threats. You seem to. You fear god. To bad you fear him, because you are letting a work of fiction rule you. You might as well worship Harry Potter.

If your claimed deity is that insecure to threaten me with hell because I dont want to love him or think he doesnt exist, what kind of god is that? Either egotistical or extreemly insecure brat who throws a tantrum when he doesnt get what he wants.

Your god is an invention of inmature thinking by inmature people who were tribalistic and superstitions. But it was like that in all polytheism and monotheism in ancient times, not just Christianity.

If you dont want to face that, there is nothing I can do to help you.

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You said all you had to do

You said all you had to do is have Jesus then said kills don't get a free ticket. Which is it? Or is it both? Also I think a lot of people here could point out all the bad stuff in the bible that are in context, but those are other topics...


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LLroomtempJ wrote: Accepting

LLroomtempJ wrote:

Accepting Jesus is not a free ticket to murder and rape. Paul discusses this in romans 6: "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

Unfortunately, that came right after he wrote in Romans 4:15b,
"And where there is no law there is no transgression."

No law->no transgression. No transgression->no sin.

Romans 6:1-2 doesn't make sense because Paul had said that the law no longer applies to Christians..

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A VERY long response

I left work and went to the gym before I had a chance to respond. This is my longest one yet. If you read it all…or at least portions that seem interesting to you, I give you my deepest gratitude for indulging me (a “crazy” Christian) in conversation.

I write this to the thinker in you guys. Please read this as you would any other philosophical argument. Once again, this is not a personal attack against any of you…I know where I am and what I am doing. Please receive this in the spirit with which it is given.

Brian37 wrote:

I dont know about you but I think I am disirable, to myself and my friends and loved ones. I am not going to devalue myself on the whims of ancient mythology just because some goat hearders wrote it down. Claims is all you have backed up by circular reasoning.
I dont need to live by fear of some invisable boogie. Doing the right thing does not need to happen under fear of punishment or promise of reward.

YES, you are desirable to your friends. I never said that. But apart from himself, how does God view you? I’m sure that you know the answer. The answer to that question is why God emptied (a paradox, read up on kenosis) himself to become man so that he could live a perfect life and then be treated as though he lived the worst life possible.

NO I am not ashamed to say that I fear God. However, my good acts are not done because of a promise of reward or a promise of punishment, but rather because I love God and desire to honor him with my life

Brian37 wrote:

No it isnt.

Yes, it is. Laughing out loud

Brian37 wrote:
Now, do you think I should burn forever for saying, "I deny the holy spirit?" I dispise pediophiles and rapists. But "The holy spirit is a work of fiction" That statement alone has no chance of reversal according to the Bible.

The writers of the skeptic’s annotated bible would want you to believe that there is a contradiction within the bible when in reality they seek to skew the original meaning of the text to suit their damnable ends. YES, the earthly and temporal (I use the words as synonyms) consequences of certain sin is greater than others, however, the eternal consequences of sin is the same all around…death.

To address the issue at hand, the passage to which you are referring is a tricky one that is often misinterpreted. How can a man receive forgiveness when his entire disposition is contrary to God? And I’m here to tell you that a disposition that is contrary to God is NOT unique to blasphemy against the holy spirit. It is characteristic of all men who are apart from God...whether they accept it or not God, himself spoke it.How can one who completely rejects God ever come to faith and receive forgiveness UNLESS God begins a gracious work in that man’s heart and allows his eyes to be opened to the truth? John 1:29 speaks of the far reaching potential of Jesus’ sacrifice.

Brian37 wrote:

I was married once. I got divorced because she wanted a divorce. I let her go because she has her own brain. I didnt threaten to beat her up if she didnt come back.

So…are you implying that a union that is steeped in sin apart from God and his commands is supposed to go according to what God says about marriage? Really think about that.

Here’s a quote for you:

"Free will without grace has the power to do nothing but sin...The sinner can choose his category, but he can't choose anything other than sin"

No matter how righteous the deed…it is sinful in God’s eyes. Why is it sinful? Because glorifying God is not the motivating factor for anything in your life. You may not have said it that bluntly, but I’m sure that you don’t disagree with that statement. Your marriage, though a noble deed, was sinful. Your divorce (despite the fact that your wife probably did not commit adultery), was sinful. This is not my opinion.

Brian37 wrote:
Your god will torture me forever if I refuse to love him or dont believe in his existance. I dont respond to tyranical threats. You seem to. You fear god. To bad you fear him, because you are letting a work of fiction rule you. You might as well worship Harry Potter.

You don’t respond to tyrannical threats, but what about responding to gracious love?

God has been interacting with man since the beginning of time. Heaven is a place for people who love God. Biblically, I will worship him in the beauty of his holiness forever. I truly desire that. Seeing that the options are only an eternity with God, or an eternity apart from God…add to that the fact that you chose a fleeting moment, which was relatively long (I’m talking about your life), to deny God and to rebel against him, where else should you spend eternity? Why would you want to spend an eternity with the very being that you blasphemed against? Satan has blinded you from seeing the beauty of God. I was in the same state as you, but thank God for his grace. It is only by his grace that I am where I am today. I would also venture to say that it is only by God's grace that you are alive to read what I am typing.

Brian37 wrote:

Either egotistical or extreemly insecure brat who throws a tantrum when he doesnt get what he wants.

Here’s a quote that speaks for itself:

“Love is to enthrall another person with what will make them eternally and infinitely happy; Namely, Christ…If there were a person in this room infinitely beautiful, infinitely worthy, infinitely valuable, infinitely satisfying[...]the most loving thing for that person to do would be to get attention from all of us and say LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!![…]but there’s nobody here like that. There is one being in the universe like that, there’s one all glorious being, one infinitely valuable being, one all beautiful being. God, in Christ crucified and risen and reigning and coming[…]And therefore in order for him to be loving he must say LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!”

Voiderest wrote:

You said all you had to do is have Jesus then said kills don't get a free ticket. Which is it? Or is it both? Also I think a lot of people here could point out all the bad stuff in the bible that are in context, but those are other topics...

The question that I’m posing is this: “Do professing Christians who are also unrepentant murderers really have Jesus?” Repentance is a defining characteristic of a christian.

jcgadfly wrote:

Unfortunately, that came right after he wrote in Romans 4:15b,
"And where there is no law there is no transgression."
No law->no transgression. No transgression->no sin.
Romans 6:1-2 doesn't make sense because Paul had said that the law no longer applies to Christians..

Dude, you totally missed it. Totally. I’ll quote paul again and then expound further.

“We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

How can live in sin if you died to sin? Were you ever truly crucified with Christ? Were you truly born again? Or are you just self deceived? Are you one of the people that God is talking about in Matthew 7:21?

Only an unregenerate heart can continue to live in sin after professing to have been changed. But if you profess that change while there is no evidence of a change, you are a liar and a fraud.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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Quote:The question that

Quote:
The question that I’m posing is this: “Do professing Christians who are also unrepentant murderers really have Jesus?” Repentance is a defining characteristic of a christian.

You are arguing what defines a christian... If they follow the bible even if they pick and choose they are still christian because you pick and choose too. In a lot of cases (in the bible) murder was for the religion so they probably didn't repent.

Also you seem to say as long as someone repents they are ok. I think that is more dangerous then just thinking murder is wrong. I mean think about it, if I follow that then I can go out kill a bunch of people, repent, then everything is good again.

Now let look at this idea of a "professing christian". David Korash was christian, he believed in the bible and thought a conflect with the government would bring the second coming of christ. A person can do wrong and still be christian. A person can even do wrong following the bible, don't fool yourself...


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LL, I have a 'righteous

LL,

I have a 'righteous judgment' test that I apply to people who say they are christians.

It begins in Galatians 5:19 and continues to 5:26

King James Bible wrote:

Galatians 5
19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Now, I understand that we are flesh according to this and as such we are prone to sin. However, A TRUE CHRISTIAN would 'walk in the spirit' and evidence the fruit of the spirit by their actions. Something which you previously mentioned as meaning more than just their declaration or affiliation with christianity.
In my experience and by my judgment, I have NEVER seen evidence of a true christian that 'walks in the spirit'. No human that I've ever come in contact with or witnessed has evidenced these nine traits of 'righteousness'.
Do I still look? Oh you betchya. I want to meet someone that nice. For the most part, if my appraisal of the individual agrees with one or more other people's judgment then I still try to get past my possible bias with regard to my skepticism.

Much like you, I have thought about the idea that:

LLroomtempJ wrote:

There is one being in the universe like that, there’s one all glorious being, one infinitely valuable being, one all beautiful being. God, in Christ crucified and risen and reigning and coming[…]And therefore in order for him to be loving he must say LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!”

However, if we are to look and see not then..... what? I understand that your answer might be that 'faith' is needed, but by the scripture faith is a 'fruit of the spirit' implying that the spirit should be upon you and growing before that faith can be manifest.

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Voiderest wrote: In a lot of

Voiderest wrote:

In a lot of cases (in the bible) murder was for the religion so they probably didn't repent.

God hates all sin…and the wages of sin is DEATH. Can’t stress that enough. GOD HATES IT! He hates it he hates it he hates it. He is holy! The word for death in greek means DEATH! What do you expect???

God is sovereign. He is God. It is only by common grace that those that reject him are not wiped out. Each day that you have is another day to repent. Don’t waste time.

In Deuteronomy it discusses Israel becoming the sword of the lord. God executed his justice both with and without human involvement.

I will not carry out God’s will and justice unless I am unequivocally told to do so. Will the murder seem wrong in your unrighteous eyes? (a resounding) YES! Will I go to jail? YES! Why? Because man’s relative “perfection” (better said: man’s goodness) will try to punish God’s eternal perfection. Humor me for a second and assume that there is a God…doesn’t that thought sound crazy and shortsighted to you?

Voiderest wrote:

Also you seem to say as long as someone repents they are ok. I think that is more dangerous then just thinking murder is wrong. I mean think about it, if I follow that then I can go out kill a bunch of people, repent, then everything is good again.

The doctrine of grace is exactly that. It is receiving from God what you do not deserve (life in eternity). And an equally importantl accompaniment to grace is mercy, which is not getting what you DO deserve (death followed eternal death in HELL).

Voiderest wrote:

Now let look at this idea of a "professing christian". David Korash was christian, he believed in the bible and thought a conflect with the government would bring the second coming of christ. A person can do wrong and still be christian. A person can even do wrong following the bible, don't fool yourself...

But is this person truly saved? And if they are truly saved, are they being lead by the spirit of God or by the spirit of their own “good” motives. The perfection of God and the goodness of man are light years apart from each other. Yes, the second coming of Christ is a “good thing” , but it can only be a perfect thing when it is done in God’s perfect time. No man knows the hour or day that the Son of Man will return…who is this man to think that he can provoke God to return?

darth_josh wrote:

I have NEVER seen evidence of a true christian that 'walks in the spirit'. No human that I've ever come in contact with or witnessed has evidenced these nine traits of 'righteousness'.

If you live in the Baltimore area, I’d like to invite you to my house. If you’re not satisfied with me and my fruit, I’d like to invite you to my church.

Romans 7 discusses struggles that we have with our flesh. I live by the spirit, but immodest dressing by women could cause me to fall into lust. I live by the spirit, but someone denting and scratching my new car *not because of poor parallel parking skills, but rather because of extremely poor judgment could cause me to become angry. How I respond to these stimuli is a direct result of my desire to please God with my life. Do I engage these scantily clad women in conversation that would lead to further sin? Do I smash the windshield of the car that messed my car up? BY NO MEANS. Grace may abound, but the holy spirit leads me to act in a manner that is pleasing to God.

I’m not perfect, but I can assure you that the all of the fruit of the spirit is present in my life.

Is it possible for me to rejoice in witnessing the death of a loved one? How can I be joyful in that moment? Do my tears mean that I'm not living by the spirit? By no means. But as someone who has been changed by the salvific and regenerative power of God, I should be able to be joyful in God's perfect will.

eternity>>time spent here on earth

darth_josh wrote:

However, if we are to look and see not then..... what? I understand that your answer might be that 'faith' is needed, but by the scripture faith is a 'fruit of the spirit' implying that the spirit should be upon you and growing before that faith can be manifest.

This is a paradox. People that deny the sovereingty of God would have you believe differently, but here is the biblical truth for you.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing the word of God.

People can be saved by faith ONLY by the power of God (because grace is the catalyst)

No one comes to God unless God draws him.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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The first/4th paragraph you

The first/4th paragraph you wrote sounds to me not much different from something from Osama Bin Laden. I am so glad the Christian God does not actually exist.

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mattshizzle wrote: The

mattshizzle wrote:

The first/4th paragraph you wrote sounds to me not much different from something from Osama Bin Laden.

Without the wrath of God, there is no need for propitiation.

Without judgement, there is no need for the grace of God.

God is so holy that he cannot stand to look upon sin.. and this was made manifest by him exacting his righeous judgement and warning of subsequent judgement.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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jcgadfly wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Unfortunately, that came right after he wrote in Romans 4:15b,
"And where there is no law there is no transgression."
No law->no transgression. No transgression->no sin.
Romans 6:1-2 doesn't make sense because Paul had said that the law no longer applies to Christians..

LLroomtempJ wrote:

Dude, you totally missed it. Totally. I’ll quote paul again and then expound further.

“We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"

How can live in sin if you died to sin? Were you ever truly crucified with Christ? Were you truly born again? Or are you just self deceived? Are you one of the people that God is talking about in Matthew 7:21?

Only an unregenerate heart can continue to live in sin after professing to have been changed. But if you profess that change while there is no evidence of a change, you are a liar and a fraud.

What did I miss?

Paul says that believers are dead to sin. This was after he wrote that god's law doesn't apply to believers. .

Isn't sin a violation of god's law? If god's law doesn't apply to believers, they can't violate it. It would be like being tried here for breaking the laws of Japan.

If the believers can't violate god's law, they can't sin. Why talk about being dead to something in romans 6 that he said believers can't do in romans 4?

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LLroomtempJ wrote: God is so

LLroomtempJ wrote:

God is so holy that he cannot stand to look upon sin..

Then why did he create the world knowing that there would be an abundance of "sin?" In fact supposedly EVERYONE is a sinner.

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LLroomtempJ wrote: God hates

LLroomtempJ wrote:

God hates all sin…and the wages of sin is DEATH. Can’t stress that enough. GOD HATES IT! He hates it he hates it he hates it. He is holy! The word for death in greek means DEATH! What do you expect???

Yes it very clear in the bible god hates people.
Quote:
God is sovereign. He is God. It is only by common grace that those that reject him are not wiped out. Each day that you have is another day to repent. Don’t waste time.

Ok I won't waste time and stay out of church. Smiling
Quote:
In Deuteronomy it discusses Israel becoming the sword of the lord. God executed his justice both with and without human involvement.

Read Deuteronomy 13? That one is really messed up...
Quote:
I will not carry out God’s will and justice unless I am unequivocally told to do so. Will the murder seem wrong in your unrighteous eyes? (a resounding) YES! Will I go to jail? YES! Why? Because man’s relative “perfection” (better said: man’s goodness) will try to punish God’s eternal perfection. Humor me for a second and assume that there is a God…doesn’t that thought sound crazy and shortsighted to you?

The thought that you'll kill someone when you hear voices sounds crazy...
Quote:
The doctrine of grace is exactly that. It is receiving from God what you do not deserve (life in eternity). And an equally importantl accompaniment to grace is mercy, which is not getting what you DO deserve (death followed eternal death in HELL).

Well if I have original sin its god's fault talk to him about it.
Quote:
But is this person truly saved? And if they are truly saved, are they being lead by the spirit of God or by the spirit of their own “good” motives. The perfection of God and the goodness of man are light years apart from each other. Yes, the second coming of Christ is a “good thing” , but it can only be a perfect thing when it is done in God’s perfect time. No man knows the hour or day that the Son of Man will return…who is this man to think that he can provoke God to return?

Well he thought he was doing gods will. He thought he was told by god to do things. Is that any different then what you suggest?


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LLroomtempJ wrote:darth_josh

LLroomtempJ wrote:
darth_josh wrote:

However, if we are to look and see not then..... what? I understand that your answer might be that 'faith' is needed, but by the scripture faith is a 'fruit of the spirit' implying that the spirit should be upon you and growing before that faith can be manifest.

This is a paradox. People that deny the sovereingty of God would have you believe differently, but here is the biblical truth for you.

Faith in Christ comes by hearing the word of God.

People can be saved by faith ONLY by the power of God (because grace is the catalyst)

No one comes to God unless God draws him.

Ahhhhh. Therein lies one reason why some of my colleagues and I agree that christianity is the faith of exclusion. The paradox of salvation is that 'god' knows who is to be saved.
It seems that another contradiction has arisen.
god's grace would supplant faith as the primary determining factor for one's salvation.
Here we have another unreconcilable problem(paradox) because 'faith' is dependent upon the individual in the 'free will' model of humanity. However, if faith in christ comes from god then we are led to believe that our decision concerning faith would be pre-determined on god's part. Thus, those who are 'godless' are so due to god's will. That would definitely curtail any kind of evangelical mission to let everyone 'hear the word of god'. It wouldn't make a difference to the 'not chosen' ones.
god's gotta want you before the word makes a difference.
Thus if he existed then he is evil in the eyes of the people that he would shun. This would contradict the ideas concerning the 'loving, forgiving, kind, and just' god of the bible.

How many paradoxes until the root of the problem disappears?

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I came here knowing that I

I came here knowing that I was fighting a battle that wouldn’t be met with:

“You know what, I never really thought of it that way. Thank God for Jesus” Laughing out loud

All that I can do as a Christian is pray for you all and other of similar mindset.

Sapient wrote:

Then why did he create the world knowing that there would be an abundance of "sin?" In fact supposedly EVERYONE is a sinner.

God is all-knowing, I am not. Could God have prevented the fall? Yes. Did he? No. My take on things is that the fall of man wasn’t because God hated man, but rather because man is imperfect and God wants man to see that perfection is found in him. Through the fall, he is glorified. Is it selfish? No. It is loving. Please refer to the “look at me look at me look at me” quote.

voiderest wrote:

Yes it very clear in the bible god hates people.

Actually, it’s very clear to me that God hates the sin that people do. His righteousness does not allow him to not punish sin.

voiderest wrote:

Read Deuteronomy 13? That one is really messed up

Messed up by whose standard? Yes, you are a rational being, but by God’s standard, you are irrational in that you deny him, his sovereignty and the perfection of his will.

voiderest wrote:

The thought that you'll kill someone when you hear voices sounds crazy

That was an extreme example that would’ve placed me in the position of an Israelite in the old testament days. Under the new covenant established by Jesus Christ, no one is called to carry out God’s righteous judgement.

The bigger point is that to you, the will of God will sound crazy because you are a moral humanist. And your morality is relative, while God’s morality is absolute.

voiderest wrote:

Well he thought he was doing gods will. He thought he was told by god to do things. Is that any different then what you suggest?

I’ll say it again: Contrary to what the skeptics annotated bible says, God’s word does not contradict itself. God’s spirit will counsel you in a manner which is contrary to what was breathed by God’s spirit in the scriptures. The heart is deceitful above all things. We can easily be lead astray by our convictions, while God’s spirit is saying otherwise. Satan is real and he is actively trying to keep man away from God’s perfection.

Why does God allow satan to exist? I’m not sure, but I can assure you that Satan’s end has been written.

darth_josh wrote:

Thus, those who are 'godless' are so due to god's will…Thus if he existed then he is evil in the eyes of the people that he would shun. This would contradict the ideas concerning the 'loving, forgiving, kind, and just' god of the bible.

God creates universe.
God creates man.
God knows that some men will deny and reject him.
God allows this rejection to happen.

Why? I do not know.

There was an established model for this rejection set when Lucifer rebelled against God with a third of heaven.

Israel had insanely intimate contact with God, and yet they chose idols over God.

There is even rebellion against God during the reign of Jesus (2nd coming). AFTER GOD CLEARLY SHOWS HIMSELF TO PEOPLE. No more faith involved in the encounter.

God created man the way he did for a reason. We die to sin, but we still choose righteousness over sin by sewing to our spirit man as opposed to sewing to our flesh.

I can choose to read stuff magazine, or I can read Christian literature.

I think that this is all that I can say. As I said at the start of this entry, I didn’t expect to come here and mass-repentance to be the result. I’ve been praying for you all since I came here. I know that you all couldn’t possibly care less about what I do, but that is what I’m doing.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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LL, That didn't really

LL,

That didn't really address the issue for me. I understand that your faith is strong. However, I need to know if you really are analyzing the problems with your religion that are being presented to you or not.

You mentioned the rebellion of satan/lucifer, but didn't there need to be more than just one reason for him to 'fall'? We've got only one side of the story there. Was god doing such a poor job of ruling heaven that his angels became disgruntled employees rather than willing servants?

Yet satan has no need for faith because he would have intimate knowledge of god, which would bring absolute evidence for him. This seems to me to be in direct contradiction with the ideas in the bible concerning

Quote:
GOD CLEARLY SHOWS HIMSELF TO PEOPLE.

This 'clear' evidence is unfound. This would also disregard faith as the means to attain salvation since it could be CLEARLY EVIDENCED. Which in turn, brings us back to the 'faith' contained in the fuit of the spirit verse. If the existence of god is evidencable then faith no longer becomes an issue.
Do you see how ridiculously futile it is to discuss something that is circular in nature? lol.

I know it seems that I'm 'attacking' you, but it isn't you that I feel is the problem. Religion has used this circular logic to prevent questions being asked because all of the answers just don't seem to hold up. The handy little 'disclaimers' included don't hold up to scrutiny especially when confronted with 'Why?'

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ME wrote: God’s spirit

ME wrote:

God’s spirit will counsel you in a manner which is contrary to what was breathed by God’s spirit in the scriptures.

this should read:

God's spirit will NOT cousel you in a manner that is contrary to what was breathed by God's spirit in the scriptures.

I tried editing it, but i couldn't.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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LLroomtempJ wrote: All that

LLroomtempJ wrote:

All that I can do as a Christian is pray for you all and other of similar mindset.

I think RRS has a saying for that Eye-wink
Quote:
Actually, it’s very clear to me that God hates the sin that people do. His righteousness does not allow him to not punish sin.

What about the time when god tells them to do something then gets pissed about it?
Quote:
Messed up by whose standard? Yes, you are a rational being, but by God’s standard, you are irrational in that you deny him, his sovereignty and the perfection of his will.

You aren't even addressing the issue... It is telling you to kill people if they think differently then you.
Quote:
That was an extreme example that would’ve placed me in the position of an Israelite in the old testament days. Under the new covenant established by Jesus Christ, no one is called to carry out God’s righteous judgement.

Matthew 10:21?
Quote:
The bigger point is that to you, the will of God will sound crazy because you are a moral humanist. And your morality is relative, while God’s morality is absolute.

If you define humanist as "of or pertaining to a philosophy asserting human dignity and man's capacity for fulfillment through reason and scientific method and often rejecting religion" sure, but I haven't even been to there website or wiki so I'm not a part of that group. Not that absolute when few agree on everything Eye-wink
Quote:
I’ll say it again: Contrary to what the skeptics annotated bible says, God’s word does not contradict itself. God’s spirit will counsel you in a manner which is contrary to what was breathed by God’s spirit in the scriptures.

Contrary to what you imply SAB isn't the only one who knows there are contradictions.
Quote:
The heart is deceitful above all things. We can easily be lead astray by our convictions, while God’s spirit is saying otherwise. Satan is real and he is actively trying to keep man away from God’s perfection.
Why does God allow satan to exist? I’m not sure, but I can assure you that Satan’s end has been written.

Well if satan exists god let it happen and you just said satan is the one trying to keep me from god. So doesn't that mean god is one you should be complaining about?


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LLroomtempJ wrote:I came

LLroomtempJ wrote:
I came here knowing that I was fighting a battle that wouldn’t be met with:

“You know what, I never really thought of it that way. Thank God for Jesus” Laughing out loud

All that I can do as a Christian is pray for you all and other of similar mindset.

And as a human you could embrace reason over prayer.

Sapient wrote:
Quote:

Then why did he create the world knowing that there would be an abundance of "sin?" In fact supposedly EVERYONE is a sinner.

God is all-knowing, I am not. Could God have prevented the fall? Yes. Did he? No. My take on things is that the fall of man wasn’t because God hated man, but rather because man is imperfect and God wants man to see that perfection is found in him. Through the fall, he is glorified. Is it selfish? No. It is loving. Please refer to the “look at me look at me look at me” quote.

You know the first post I didn't respond to you, my apologies for that. Much of the reason I didn't was because you completely dodged the point. In this post you did it again, yes you answered what you think an answer could be, but the question still remains...

If god can't stand sin why did he create an abundance of it?

Now, new questions have arisen:

How can you think that it's loving to create man as imperfect in a system in which some are punished eternally? Let's take a 5 year old boy in Africa who has muslim parents as an example. How is it loving to send them to eternal torment for being exactly as god made him?

How does it glorify god to have made something imperfect and watch it fall? Sounds to me that would make god feel incompetent.

Quote:
I think that this is all that I can say. As I said at the start of this entry, I didn’t expect to come here and mass-repentance to be the result. I’ve been praying for you all since I came here.

See this on prayer. (three seperate points)

Third point:
What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already?

1.) Humans can't change God's mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

Quote:
I know that you all couldn’t possibly care less about what I do, but that is what I’m doing.

Untrue. I actually like you, but it's probably just your screen name. Sticking out tongue

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didn't realize that there was a second page

darth_josh wrote:

Yet satan has no need for faith because he would have intimate knowledge of god, which would bring absolute evidence for him.

There are some mysteries that even angels desire to know. What if satan was just discontented by not knowing more?

darth_josh wrote:

The handy little 'disclaimers' included don't hold up to scrutiny especially when confronted with 'Why?'

acceptance by faith is the only reasonable response. As you have expressed knowledge of, why's cannot always be answered.

voiderest wrote:

You aren't even addressing the issue... It is telling you to kill people if they think differently then you.

Contrarily, i believe that i have addressed the issue. The issue is "who does God think he is?" the answer is: "God". I honestly don't think that i'm dancing around the issue.

voiderest wrote:
matthew 10:21

are you sure that you're quoting the correct scripture? There is no instruction to physically carry out God's righteous judgement in that passage.

Sapient wrote:

If god can't stand sin why did he create an abundance of it?

I would venture to say that God didn't create sin, but rather he created certain beings who chose sin over him. The first being angels, the second, man.

Anticipated quote wrote:
Didn't God create all things and therefore a desire in his creation's heart to sin?

Yes. God did create all things. But by what masure is "good" good. How can you know that something is hot if there is nothing colder that is ever experienced? I would also venture to say that God struck a careful balance with his creation that gave them the option to choose to evil despite knowledge of him. I cannot understand it. I cannot explain it. But it happened, and I accept God's perfection by faith.

Sapient wrote:
What is the purpose of prayer?

The purpose of prayer is for you to acknowledge God as being in control of your situation. Biblically, God knows what i need before I ask it, but he desires for me to acknowledge him, and it does me good to remind myself that he is in control.

Sapient wrote:
Untrue. I actually like you, but it's probably just your screen name.

I've had it since i was 12. Ten years later, the smile value remains.

I'm glad that we were able to have a civilized conversation on this topic.

At the end of the day, it is my faith the sustains me and it is your faith (if you so choose to call it that) that allows you to maintain your atheism.

It is my acceptance of the bible as the inspired, inerrant word of God that keeps me. Tough passages don't lead me to complete rejection, but rather to further study.

Your questions are valid. In some cases, your questions are my questions. However, we've come to two totally different conclusions

You guys will see me around here on occasion.

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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Quote:Contrarily, i believe

Quote:
Contrarily, i believe that i have addressed the issue. The issue is "who does God think he is?" the answer is: "God". I honestly don't think that i'm dancing around the issue.

I said it was messed up that people are told to kill people over religion and you basically said we shouldn't question god then brought up another subject...
Quote:
are you sure that you're quoting the correct scripture? There is no instruction to physically carry out God's righteous judgement in that passage.

Pretty sure I'm quoting this right, I'll break it down, maybe there is a flaw...

The main subject seems to be those going out spreading the word and what should be expected in this action.

And brother will give up brother to death, and the father his child: and children will go against their fathers and mothers, and put them to death. (people will kill there family over this, being "the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.")

Then they go into how you will be hated for this. Now if it is that people are killing people for believing you wouldn't they just kill you too and fix the problem? But if people are killing in your gods name wouldn't that be a bigger problem something which would be worthy of persecuting?


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LLroomtempJ wrote: Sapient

LLroomtempJ wrote:

Sapient wrote:

If god can't stand sin why did he create an abundance of it?

I would venture to say that God didn't create sin, but rather he created certain beings who chose sin over him. The first being angels, the second, man.

Realizing of course that God knew before creating them that they would choose sin over him, right? And of course, realizing that God knew they would choose sin well before he created them and chose to make a system in which sinners are punished eternally, right?

Honestly the question still hasn't been answered satisfactorily. Inability to answer questions sufficiently is the risk somoene runs when trying to defend a logical belief in Yahweh.

Let's review:

1. You said God can't stand sin.
2. God is all powerful and all knowing
3. God made man knowing they would sin and had the power to stop it
4. God created something he cant stand, knowing it ahead of time, with the power to change it.

Quote:
At the end of the day, it is my faith the sustains me and it is your faith (if you so choose to call it that) that allows you to maintain your atheism.

I'll agree it's your faith, but you should be aware, I don't utilize faith. I abhor and detest faith, and am againsts beliefs that rests solely on faith.

One need not have faith to lack belief in god.

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Voiderest wrote: I said it

Voiderest wrote:

I said it was messed up that people are told to kill people over religion

I will address this in as straightforward a manner as i can. If the wages of sinning against God is death, what does that literally mean? If you sin against God, and he as a righteous judge must punish sin, what is your punishment?

The answer is death.

Does it say some sin? Does it say these particular sins, but not these other ones? No, it is very clear....the wages of SIN is death. That means all sin. From covetousness to rape. They are equal because their doing requires an equal disregard for God and his commands.

If you are killed by God for sinning against him, you will say "Man, this is unfair", but that does not make the judgement unfair by the standard to which you are being held.

The wages of vehicular manslaughter is 20 years to life. If you commit vehicular manslaughter, would it be justifiable for a judge to say at your sentencing "you're free to go"?

Why, then would it be any more justifiable for God to dismiss sin?

Your next thought may be, but what about being admonished by God and then sent on my way to sin no more?

Have you ever received a speeding ticket? Why did you get it? Here's the answer: Because of a disregard for the established law. Did you learn your lesson at the time, or did you curse the cop under your breath for messing up your day? After getting your ticket, have you ever gone 60 in a 55 (what about 56 in a 55?), even though you know the upper limit is 55? Don't you remember how you felt when you were ADMONISHED for the first offense? If you've never gotten a speeding ticket, please indulge me, or put one of your lead foot friends in your place.

Why is it that not everyone gets pulled over for doing 60 in a 55? The common grace of the police officers on duty.

When someone does get pulled over for going 60 in a 55, are they guilty or innocent?

Just in case my point is unclear. God's sin limit is zero. Do you disregard his law by going 5 in a zero zone? You may ask: "But what about everyone else going 5?" God doesn't grade on a curve. Here's a cool metaphor for you: When God judges christians, though there may have been a point in their lives when they were going 5 in a zero zone, Jesus Christ serves as a retroactive radar gun blocker.

No one has a problem with the law until they get caught and it's time to pay the consequences.

To come back to the larger issue:

I think that you have missed the gravity of this topic. If I'm hearing you correctly as you're typing, you're stressing the word "religion". Like...it's messed up to kill people over religion.

Kinda like the statement. "I can't believe they shot him over $0.25."

You are inherently implying that the matters of God are meaningless...when in fact the very statement "The wages of sin is death" implies that the matters of God are a matter of life and death.

I hope that I answered your question clearly and adequately.

voiderest wrote:
And brother will give up brother to death, and the father his child: and children will go against their fathers and mothers, and put them to death. (people will kill there family over this, being "the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.")

Then they go into how you will be hated for this. Now if it is that people are killing people for believing you wouldn't they just kill you too and fix the problem? But if people are killing in your gods name wouldn't that be a bigger problem something which would be worthy of persecuting?

that's why you have to read the entire section to understand the context of the verse.

This section is talking about the persecution that christians will undergo because of the faith.

In the early church, and in most non-christian countries today, christians are persecuted/martyred on a regular basis.

Brother's will give up their christian brothers to authorities because they are christians. Fathers will give up their children because their children are christians. Children will rise up against their christian parents and cause them to be put to death because the parents are christian.

This is just an illustration of the division that will occur.

You have to read the entire chapter (specifically the verses leading up to the 21st verse to fully understand what that scripture is saying).

You tell me to substantiate my claim that God exists and it is given to you. I ask you to substantiate your claim that God does not exist and you respond with confusion and misunderstanding. Satan is a liar. God stands and waits for you.[j316]


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LLroomtempJ wrote:I hope

LLroomtempJ wrote:
I hope that I answered your question clearly and adequately.

I didn't ask what is sin or why god would hate sin... I asked if you had read it, I was pointing out how it tells you to kill. Here is a better question are you going to follow the bible and kill people?

Deuteronomy 13 wrote:
6 If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend, who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods," which you have not known, you, nor your fathers;

7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near to you, or far off from you, from the one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth;

8 you shall not consent to him, nor listen to him; neither shall your eye pity him, neither shall you spare, neither shall you conceal him:

9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first on him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Quote:
You have to read the entire chapter (specifically the verses leading up to the 21st verse to fully understand what that scripture is saying).

I did, that’s kinda where I got the "Spirit of your Father" and knew what they are telling people to do. In that verse it doesn't say which people are christians, but it is clear someone is christian. So far you could be right however let look at these verses.

Matthew 10 wrote:
34 Don't think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn't come to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I came to set a man at odds against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

36 A man's foes will be those of his own household.

37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me isn't worthy of me.

38 He who doesn't take his cross and follow after me, isn't worthy of me.

39 He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

I don't think that is talking about what other are doing to christians but what christians are doing to others... That might be why it says people want like it and then tells you again that you'll be saved for it.


hethsixoespa
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Voiderest-Perhaps I can

Voiderest-

Perhaps I can help. Deuteronomy is a message to the Jews living in a world surrounded by poly-theists. The Lord God brought them out from under the slavery of egypt...had personally appeared to the jews as a pillar of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day...He provided miraculously food for them while they were wandering in the desert...He drove nations out before them who would have otherwise destroyed them...He always had mercy on his people who consistently disobeyed Him and tried to follow after the idols of the pagans..God had performed many miracles before this stubborn people...notice that the jews never argued whether or not He existed...and here in Deuteronomy God instructs them to kill those enemies who try to draw them away from what they know to be right...that is far more severe than perhaps it looks. These weren't innocent people having harmless discussions with the jews, but people who tempted the very people of the one true God to worship their own idols. This was necessary because God was establishing the Jews as His people and teaching them how to live, teaching them the truth about Himself, the only true God...how severe then for a pagan to try to tempt away the people of God to serve idols made of stone and wood. This was necessary for the survival of the Jews. But this was to the Jews, trying to be established amongst a world full of nations who would destroy them for worshiping not worshiping their man-made idols. This is a lesson in history from which we can draw much, but not a commandment from God for believers to kill non-believers. This was written for a specific purpose in time for the Jews.

Matthew 10:34-39 says specifically that Jesus did not come to bring peace on earth, not in the sense that people normally think of it. Jesus came to bring the truth, and the truth divides those who accept it and those who do not accept it. A man or woman who accepts the truth will be set at odds with those who do not accept the truth, even with his own family. It is not what Christians are doing to non-believers or vice-versa, it is what happens when one person accepts the truth and another denies it...they are set at odds...they are divided...it commands the christian not to compromise the truth even for his/her family. It tells us that to gain the eternal life that God offers us we must give up our lives to Him and stop following the course that we choose to take for ourselves.

Even you as an athiest believe that what you believe is the truth...and when Christians come along and disagree, you are divided. That is what the passage is saying.

I also just noticed that the last post before this was almost 3 months ago, but perhaps you will stumble back upon this. Have you thought anymore about this since?

Hethsixoespa; To learn you must love discipline, it is stupid to hate correction.