Square circles and round circles

Mechanical Atheist
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Square circles and round circles

I heard on several earlier episodes of the RRS that a circle is not a square.  I wanted to say that if you speak of a circle in Euclidean geometry, then a circle is not a square, but if you move outside of geometry a circle can be square.  If you have a globe, you can draw a triangle on it with three 90 degree corners, two corners on the equator and one on a pole, but this is a Reimannian geometry.  Algebraically a circle is defined as the collection of points (locus) whic are equidistant from a single point.  The concept of distance in mathematics is formalized with something called a metric, a metric is a unique value describing how far two points are from one another; the distance is always positive or zero, the distance of a point to itself is zero, and the distance from point A to C is less than or equal to the distance from A to B plus B to C.

Now, to imagine a legitimate (mathematical) square circle, imagine a grid block system aligned with the cardinal compass directions.  Each block is of equal width in the north-south and east-west directions, all streets intersect at 90 degree angles.  Suppose you only measure distance by the largest number of blocks you travel in one of the cardinal directions, so if you travel east 5 blocks and north 6 blocks, then you would have traveled 6 blocks in this way of measuring.   If you pick a number of blocks, say 6 blocks and draw a line connecting all points that are 6 blocks away, you have a square circle.

 I think my point is that we should be very careful to avoid using the trite quips that appeal to our innate sense of what is correct because it often hinges on definitions.

Jerry the Mechanical Atheist

"Fundamentalists do not create; they destroy." Brian Trent.


aiia
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Mechanical Atheist

Mechanical Atheist wrote:

I heard on several earlier episodes of the RRS that a circle is not a square. I wanted to say that if you speak of a circle in Euclidean geometry,

then a circle is not a square...

This is what is meant.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


MrRage
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Good to see another

Good to see another mathematician on the boards, Mechanical Atheist.

Mechanical Atheist wrote:
Now, to imagine a legitimate (mathematical) square circle, imagine a grid block system aligned with the cardinal compass directions. Each block is of equal width in the north-south and east-west directions, all streets intersect at 90 degree angles. Suppose you only measure distance by the largest number of blocks you travel in one of the cardinal directions, so if you travel east 5 blocks and north 6 blocks, then you would have traveled 6 blocks in this way of measuring. If you pick a number of blocks, say 6 blocks and draw a line connecting all points that are 6 blocks away, you have a square circle.

Ah, yes the "Taxicab Metric". It's true that in using this metric, that the set of all circles is a subset of the set of all squares.

Mechanical Atheist wrote:
I think my point is that we should be very careful to avoid using the trite quips that appeal to our innate sense of what is correct because it often hinges on definitions.

True enough. The pedantic nature of mathematics does help one think more clearly. But, most people don't know there are more geometries than Euclidean, so it's safe to assume that when they say "circle" they mean a circle with the Euclidean metric.

The "there's no square circles" argument is usually given to theist who claim that you can't make universal negative statements. The truth is, you can, if you use deductive arguments. The Taxicab Metric doesn't counter this point at all.


MattShizzle
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Actually, as Dan Barker

Actually, as Dan Barker pointed out, A square circle could be a nerdy group of friends.


Mechanical Atheist
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So many of the discussions

So many of the discussions that I listen to on the RRS and elsewhere often hinge solely upon definitions, such as, what is evidence and proof.  What does someone mean when they say god?  Do they mean a magician in the clouds who participates in people's lives or is it an apathetic being that started everything into motion without further interaction?  I think one of these is testable one is not and it hinges upon the definition.

Jerry the Mechanical Atheist

"Fundamentalists do not create; they destroy." Brian Trent.


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Mechanical Atheist

Mechanical Atheist wrote:
So many of the discussions that I listen to on the RRS and elsewhere often hinge solely upon definitions, such as, what is evidence and proof. What does someone mean when they say god? Do they mean a magician in the clouds who participates in people's lives or is it an apathetic being that started everything into motion without further interaction? I think one of these is testable one is not and it hinges upon the definition.
That's always a good question to ask the individual who claims it exists. So far, it is whatever they imagine it to be.

So then one can conclude that it must be imaginary.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.