Alright

Ripple
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Alright

A lot of you are misunderstanding my reasons for being here.. Salient, I realize I have little grasp on this world. Don't fucking tell me that because I'm not stupid.

First, no, Salient, you have not answered one question for me, nor have you asked one question other then, where is God inside of me? I don't fucking know so quit asking me. I can't answer something you yourself have completely labeled as well as I have something that can't be labeled by a mortal being.

Second, I can talk in intelligible sentences and if you read what I have to say, and it gives you splitting headaches, I'm sorry. I think fast, and very jumbled. Want me to write an essay on why this world is fucked up and who is to blame, at least my thoughts on that, then I will. Would you read it? Would any of you read it?

If I can come on this board, and be so quickly labeled as a troll, rather then a Free Thinker, then please tell me, should I even bother asking the questions I even ask? Because I can go to some intelligent, scholar of some sort, and talk about a lot of very real things.

I have NOT come to this board to argue the existence of God. That argument is futile and half-retarded. We have all proved that for the past 2000 years.

I AM here to gain insight on the workings of human society and the human existence.

Who am I to ask and raise such ludicrous ideas such as "What is Religion Today, Yesterday, and in the Future?" Because there always is, and always will be religion. It is something humans create to "better" their lives. So why not make something, just some philosophy if you even want to call it, why not make that and give someone, some society something to live for.

Has Taoism failed humanity? Or Confucianism? Or even the ideas of Immanuel Kant?

Please don't read what I say, writing that it is jumbled and slightly incoherent and then disregard the questions I raise for any other reason other then, I'm trying to push buttons and I ask too many stupid questions. Because that's what I do, in the flesh, in thought, and on message boards. I want to push button ask questions, and GAIN knowledge.

Don't tell me, Salient, you in particular, that I am asking dumb questions and that I am not knowledgable. What subject would ANYONE like to speak of, and I'd write an essay.

Quantum Physics, Religion, Philosophy, Human morality, the depths of the lunacity of the human mind, Evolution, Government, Politics, World Peace, Mother Theresa, Fucking Spell Check if thats what you fucks can only take out of my words and ask me. To use spell check? Shove spell check up your fucking ass and choke. Choke and burn. Give me any other topic, and let me TRY and digest it. As a servant of knowledge, I try and show NO knowledge as a human being. I'm simply trying to get something out of the fact that I know NOTHING but what people have been telling me my whole life, and that is what I know. I have no preconceived notion other then that about God, Jesus, the Big Bang. I know what I think I know, and I'm just trying to peice it together.

So please, if I know little as a human being, Enlighten me. Por Favor. I beg of you all.

I'm just really upset right now that a lot of intelligent people are ignoring a lot of good points. I'm trying to expand MY mind, so guys, explain to ME, how the world works. Tell me how things are in the world, and convince me to do something about it.

You do absolutely nothing for my position to tell me that I'm crazy and that I will never amount to anything in my life, because that has been what I've been told my whole life.

PS(am I seriously trolling you people when I call you very intelligent human beings? Fine, take what I say in a different way, and I won't ever speak my Ideas to you ever again. Have an OUNCE of respect for me, as much respect as you have for Uncle Billy sitting on the shitter, and just talk to me.)

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


melchisedec
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Quote: I'm sorry. I think

Quote:
I'm sorry. I think fast, and very jumbled.

 First of all thanks for using sentences, it helps alot Smile. Second, I find it real hard to follow exactly what your points are due to the jumbled nature of your post. My suggestion would be to choose maybe one or two points that are related to one another and discuss those. You have so many different things going on in your post that it seems like a long ramble and it becomes hard to approach. 


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All right Ripple - you get

All right Ripple - you get one chance from me. I'll pick out a few points you've made and attempt to engage you in a meaningful conversation about them. I will forewarn you - if you ramble all over the place, change the topic, ignore my questions and come out with a bunch more stuff - you're on ignore. One shot.

Ripple wrote:
I have NOT come to this board to argue the existence of God. That argument is futile and half-retarded. We have all proved that for the past 2000 years.

Actually - I don't feel this is a futile or half-retarded argument at all - and clearly there has been no proof. So - what side of the fence do you sit on, Ripple? And for what reasons?

Ripple wrote:

I AM here to gain insight on the workings of human society and the human existence. Who am I to ask and raise such ludicrous ideas such as "What is Religion Today, Yesterday, and in the Future?" Because there always is, and always will be religion.

Has there always been religion? Evidence? Why do you always feel there will be religion? There are a number of people here that have no religion, and would like to assist others to free themselves from religion. Why are we doomed to fail? Your thoughts?

Ripple wrote:
It is something humans create to "better" their lives. So why not make something, just some philosophy if you even want to call it, why not make that and give someone, some society something to live for. Has Taoism failed humanity? Or Confucianism? Or even the ideas of Immanuel Kant? Please don't read what I say, writing that it is jumbled and slightly incoherent and then disregard the questions I raise for any other reason other then, I'm trying to push buttons and I ask too many stupid questions. Because that's what I do, in the flesh, in thought, and on message boards. I want to push button ask questions, and GAIN knowledge. Don't tell me, Salient, you in particular, that I am asking dumb questions and that I am not knowledgable. What subject would ANYONE like to speak of, and I'd write an essay. Quantum Physics, Religion, Philosophy, Human morality, the depths of the lunacity of the human mind, Evolution, Government, Politics, World Peace, Mother Theresa, Fucking Spell Check if thats what you fucks can only take out of my words and ask me. To use spell check? Shove spell check up your fucking ass and choke. Choke and burn. Give me any other topic, and let me TRY and digest it. As a servant of knowledge, I try and show NO knowledge as a human being. I'm simply trying to get something out of the fact that I know NOTHING but what people have been telling me my whole life, and that is what I know. I have no preconceived notion other then that about God, Jesus, the Big Bang. I know what I think I know, and I'm just trying to peice it together. So please, if I know little as a human being, Enlighten me. Por Favor. I beg of you all. I'm just really upset right now that a lot of intelligent people are ignoring a lot of good points. I'm trying to expand MY mind, so guys, explain to ME, how the world works. Tell me how things are in the world, and convince me to do something about it. You do absolutely nothing for my position to tell me that I'm crazy and that I will never amount to anything in my life, because that has been what I've been told my whole life. PS(am I seriously trolling you people when I call you very intelligent human beings? Fine, take what I say in a different way, and I won't ever speak my Ideas to you ever again. Have an OUNCE of respect for me, as much respect as you have for Uncle Billy sitting on the shitter, and just talk to me.)

I'm going to dismiss all this rambling for now. I have raised two points in response to two statements you made. Lets begin there, and address those two exclusively.

 

-AH.


Ripple
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Questions! Insight! Someone

Questions! Insight! Someone asking me REAL questions. Thank you. Seriously, thank God.


So - what side of the fence do you sit on, Ripple? And for what reasons?
I sit on all sides of the fence. Why not? So many people have decided to live a life on one side of the big fucking Wall for a long time. Why can't I be on both sides, and sitting on top of the Berlin Wall myself. I believe in a lot of Quantum Physics. Schroddingers Cat, theory of Relativity, black holes, Big Bang(I would love to discuss with anyone), probability, Einstein-Bose Condensation. I'm not a religious nut. I hope someone can read that and just believe me on that.



Has there always been religion? Evidence? Why do you always feel there will be religion? There are a number of people here that have no religion, and would like to assist others to free themselves from religion. Why are we doomed to fail? Your thoughts?
Hinduism was created 4000 years ago(roughly) Buddhism has been formed out of Hinduism. As has many other religious sects, and as well as those religions(Hinduism, Buddhism) have affected the world of affairs as the world turns. Religion is an integral part of every day life. Is that required? Absolutely not. Humans are much smarter, much greater then the greatest Religion(there is no greatest religion) ever could achieve. So why will there be religion? Good question, I want to know. Would religion be a good thing, if the idea and the notion of religion today(corruption, church officials, big business) and would religion be a good thing if you define religion as something...better. A way of life. Ethics. Morality. Environmentalism.

What would free ourselves from religion...A religion that has no Dogmatic stench of Satan tied to it.

We are doomed to fail because as smart as human beings are, independently, and as a whole, we are also very very very very very stupid. (1 in 5 Americans believe we life in a geocentric solar system. Think about that statement and argue that to me, because that possiblity of a fact is very true)


I'm going to dismiss all this rambling for now. I have raised two points in response to two statements you made. Lets begin there, and address those two exclusively.
I ramble. A lot. All apologies.

Respect.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


melchisedec
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Ripple wrote: So - what

Ripple wrote:


So - what side of the fence do you sit on, Ripple? And for what reasons?
I sit on all sides of the fence. Why not? So many people have decided to live a life on one side of the big fucking Wall for a long time. Why can't I be on both sides, and sitting on top of the Berlin Wall myself.

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by sitting on all sides of the fence? Does this mean that you believe in truths in all religions, or that you are both spiritual and scientific? 

 


Ripple
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If you wish for me to give

If you wish for me to give you a quick answer, and not ramble on the subject, then yes. I believe that truth in everything lies much much more in the field of Science, then any religion has ever contributed to the hearts and minds of man. Am I spiritual? Yes. I pray to God frequently, and pray for the world to be a better place. Am I religious? I know a few things, but hold no personal convictions of my own. I'm just trying to state here, if Christianity is incorrect, and Buddhism is incorrect, and so is Taoism(yin and yang) then what is correct? Science alone? If so, then please, point me to the nearest labratory, the nearest planetarium, so I can explore for myself, what it means to be human on this planet. If science can help me with that, then may it be so. If science can do nothing but tell me we've evolved from monkeys, and that the universe was started from a massive explosion of energy, then bore me. I know all of this. I hold all that science to be TRUTH in my heart of hearts. Is science the product of God? Or of Man? Of who? Just coincidence? How about all 3 things at once. Then you can maybe grasp by position as a fence sitter. I trust noone in this world(not even myself) to answer or ask any rational questions unless it is nothing but the Truth. And by my vile sinning hand(is masturbation and touching womens parts a sin?) upon Gods "word" itself(the Bible, Torah, Koran) then So help me God, give me knowledge.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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Ripple wrote: Questions!

Ripple wrote:
Questions! Insight! Someone asking me REAL questions. Thank you. Seriously, thank God.

 

AntiqueHunter wrote:
So - what side of the fence do you sit on, Ripple? And for what reasons?

Ripple wrote:

I sit on all sides of the fence. Why not? So many people have decided to live a life on one side of the big fucking Wall for a long time. Why can't I be on both sides, and sitting on top of the Berlin Wall myself. I believe in a lot of Quantum Physics. Schroddingers Cat, theory of Relativity, black holes, Big Bang(I would love to discuss with anyone), probability, Einstein-Bose Condensation. I'm not a religious nut. I hope someone can read that and just believe me on that.

Well, I believe the question was specifically about the existence of God. So lets try again. Do you believe in God? Yes or no, and provide a short response as to why.

As to the other topics you raise, I'm not qualified to discuss Quantum Physics - I believe that it was Feynman who cautioned that anyone who says they understand Quantum Physics - doesn't. Other science topics - not my forte either. Lets stick to the original question, shall we?

AntiqueHunter wrote:
Has there always been religion? Evidence? Why do you always feel there will be religion? There are a number of people here that have no religion, and would like to assist others to free themselves from religion. Why are we doomed to fail? Your thoughts?

Ripple wrote:
Hinduism was created 4000 years ago(roughly) Buddhism has been formed out of Hinduism. As has many other religious sects, and as well as those religions(Hinduism, Buddhism) have affected the world of affairs as the world turns.

Are you suggesting here that the world is no older than 4000 years old?

Ripple wrote:
Religion is an integral part of every day life. Is that required? Absolutely not. Humans are much smarter, much greater then the greatest Religion(there is no greatest religion) ever could achieve. So why will there be religion? Good question, I want to know. Would religion be a good thing, if the idea and the notion of religion today(corruption, church officials, big business) and would religion be a good thing if you define religion as something...better. A way of life. Ethics. Morality. Environmentalism.

What would free ourselves from religion...A religion that has no Dogmatic stench of Satan tied to it.

We are doomed to fail because as smart as human beings are, independently, and as a whole, we are also very very very very very stupid. (1 in 5 Americans believe we life in a geocentric solar system. Think about that statement and argue that to me, because that possiblity of a fact is very true)

Well, I guess you're going to not directly answer my questions but pose some of your own. All right. One more direct question. You said:

'What would free ourselves from religion...A religion that has no Dogmatic stench of Satan tied to it.'

My question to you - Do you believe that Satan or something that looks and feels like the common Christian interpretation of Satan exists? Yes or no, and why.

 


Ripple
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I believe in God. I love

I believe in God. I love God. I love Jesus Christ. Not because I'm a Christian or any reason that anyone ever told me to love such figures. If you can love your dog Fido with all your heart, why not love someone something, that gives me a lot of hope in the world. Leave my beliefs at that, and we are cool. "Tell that bitch to be cool. When people aren't cool, people get scared. And when people get scared, people get a taste of Mr. 9 MM here." (Pulp Fiction can give a lot of insight into the world, much more then the Bible might ever has)

I dont suggest shit. I don't even suggest Quantum Physics, because I DONT understand. Don't really want to, because thinking about Quantum Physics drove me INSANE. I payed the price for that.

The world..how old it is? 2000 years old, 5000 years old, 20 years old, as old as time. Who knows. Do you know? You "know" about evolution and you "know" about the Big Bang. Well I know as much as you do on those two subjects, believe me. I love Charles Darwin and Copernicus as much as I love Jesus Christ, but who cares how old the Earth is. What you care about, and should care about, is making this world a better place.

So yes, I do counter what you have to say with more questions, because why not? Are you interested at all on the subject? I will answer every question you every will ask.

My idea of Satan is not crazy. Satan was not a real person, not a fallen Angel. Satan was unleashed after the death of Christ. I don't say that in a, oh I'm right believe what I say. Everything I think, type, and say, MUST be taken in BOTH literal and figurative terms and thinking, rational thinking. Satan is not some guy controlling little demons to do his work. We are all demons. We are all saints. That is human nature. We are all FDR's and we are all Adolf Hitlers. No one, not even God pushes us on a path of righteousness or hate. If any of you listen to the Grateful Dead, then by the words of the song Ripple, There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone

What path is that? The path of sin? Of religious conviction? If insurrection, of resurrection? A path of what? My own path? That I create, I unfold? It's the American Beauty. The fact that it doens't matter what path you take. It's a path. Make of that path what you will, God, Jesus Christ, or a path of Buddha. Are you going to kill me for believing in Enlightenment too? Didn't the United States of America just go through a short period of human knowledge and history called the Age of Reason, or the Age of Enlightenment. How enlightened are we really? How reasonable are we really? Reasonable enough to kill a bunch of Jews and Niggers. That's how reasonable.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


melchisedec
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Ripple wrote: If you wish

Ripple wrote:
If you wish for me to give you a quick answer, and not ramble on the subject, then yes. I believe that truth in everything lies much much more in the field of Science, then any religion has ever contributed to the hearts and minds of man. Am I spiritual? Yes. I pray to God frequently, and pray for the world to be a better place. Am I religious? I know a few things, but hold no personal convictions of my own. I'm just trying to state here, if Christianity is incorrect, and Buddhism is incorrect, and so is Taoism(yin and yang) then what is correct? Science alone?

 

That is the question isn't it. What is correct? Well as far as science goes, science never professes to be an absolute truth. It is merely the best knowledge we have of the world around us. So far it has been pretty accurate in helping us discern truths relating to this world and how it operates. My question to you is what God do you pray to? And why?

 

Quote:

If so, then please, point me to the nearest labratory, the nearest planetarium, so I can explore for myself, what it means to be human on this planet.

Is there some lab that is looking for the meaning of life? No, thats not the aim of science in general. Now philosophy, a branch of science can really help you in exploring the nature of that question in regards to meaning. But will it provide the answer you seek? Maybe. There has been some who have been lead to both theist and atheistic positions just by the study of philosophy.

Quote:

science the product of God? Or of Man? Of who? Just coincidence? How about all 3 things at once. Then you can maybe grasp by position as a fence sitter.

This ofcourse depends on your position. If you presuppose a God then science is really just a manifestation of its work. If you do not, then science is merely the knowledge of the system that has been in place in which life has formed. Coincidence of?

 

Quote:

I trust noone in this world(not even myself) to answer or ask any rational questions unless it is nothing but the Truth.

 

This makes no sense, can you please clarify.


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Hookay... rambling... 

Hookay... rambling... 

Sorry Ripple, I'm making a conscious decision NOT to further discuss with you - for the following reasons:

1)  I asked you specifically to engage me in a discussion point by point without rambling on.  You have chosen not to do so.

2)  You are making assumptions about my intellect / beliefs that indicate you are not serious about engaging in a serious discussion.

3)  You have come forward and stated that you are not of sound mind - you stated this here:  "Don't really want to, because thinking about Quantum Physics drove me INSANE. I payed the price for that."  Furthermore, the rambling, incoherent nature of your responses in this and other threads indicates to me that you may be unwell.

I do not mean to sound condescending, but I really think you may wish to seek professional help - help you cannot get by discussion on an online forum.

Best,

 -AH.


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Ripple wrote:

Ripple wrote:
I believe in God. I love God. I love Jesus Christ. Not because I'm a Christian or any reason that anyone ever told me to love such figures.

Could you explain why you love Jesus and yet not identify yourself as a Christian? Do you believe that he was part of a revelation that is equally valid among other prophets such as Mohammed? Is there a reason you love the God of the bible over other Gods?

 


Quote:

The world..how old it is? 2000 years old, 5000 years old, 20 years old, as old as time. Who knows. Do you know?

Well we know the world is older than 2-5,000 years old. A variety of systems utilized to test this has shown to be very consistent. Do I know for certain, no I don't. But I believe that what we know is as close to truth as we have at this present time.

Quote:

My idea of Satan is not crazy. Satan was not a real person, not a fallen Angel. Satan was unleashed after the death of Christ. I don't say that in a, oh I'm right believe what I say. Everything I think, type, and say, MUST be taken in BOTH literal and figurative terms and thinking, rational thinking. Satan is not some guy controlling little demons to do his work. We are all demons. We are all saints. That is human nature. We are all FDR's and we are all Adolf Hitlers. No one, not even God pushes us on a path of righteousness or hate. If any of you listen to the Grateful Dead, then by the words of the song Ripple, There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone

What path is that? The path of sin? Of religious conviction? If insurrection, of resurrection? A path of what? My own path? That I create, I unfold? It's the American Beauty. The fact that it doens't matter what path you take. It's a path. Make of that path what you will, God, Jesus Christ, or a path of Buddha. Are you going to kill me for believing in Enlightenment too? Didn't the United States of America just go through a short period of human knowledge and history called the Age of Reason, or the Age of Enlightenment. How enlightened are we really? How reasonable are we really? Reasonable enough to kill a bunch of Jews and Niggers. That's how reasonable.

Maybe we can reach these topics later on, right not - its a bit of a ramble Tongue out


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What is correct? Do any of

What is correct?
Do any of us, even scientists, truly now what is correct? Doesn't even have to be completely correct.

I do believe in Philosophy, and everything you said about philosophy has led me to a guidance, both Thesist and Athesist in nature.

I pray to a God that didn't flood the earth, didn't head the Crusades, and didn't kill the Jews. I pray to a God, that right now in my life, gives me SOMETHING to live for. A hope, a desire. Could I explain that hope, desire to you in words? Probably not? Do you want to listen to something like that? Probably not? But does that hope and desire take me to a place that is productive and makes the world a better place? Who knows? Who cares? Did anyone care or really believe that Siddartha Guatama was going to eventually affect the lives of billions of people? Did Guatama really care at the time if or if not he was going to affect the lives of that many people? Did Jesus Christ?

I pray to my own God. Not because anyone told me to. My whole life I've been told to stay far, very very far from God. He is bad, he is a killer, but he also loves each and everyone one of to the fullest extent. That's all I've been told. So am I really a foolish religious nut to believe, and to love something that is JUST a concept in the mind a of a thinker, and that just maybe, it might help the world. Who is the fool/s?

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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Ripple wrote: What is

Ripple wrote:
What is correct?
Do any of us, even scientists, truly now what is correct? Doesn't even have to be completely correct.

This is a question about truth really. Can we know the truth? If you say no, then nothing you have said has been true at all. In fact, our exchange is meaningless because no matter how much we speak, learn and study we will never be any closer to truth, since it doesn't exist. I don't ascribe to this belief. I believe that we can determine certains truths about life and the world we operate in.

What do you mean by truly "know what is correct"?

Quote:


I pray to a God that didn't flood the earth, didn't head the Crusades, and didn't kill the Jews. I pray to a God, that right now in my life, gives me SOMETHING to live for.

So your belief exist to bring meaning to your life. Its driven by emotion in order to keep intact some existing worldview you have. Are you afraid that withou a belief in God you have nothing to live for?

 


Quote:

I pray to my own God. Not because anyone told me to. My whole life I've been told to stay far, very very far from God. He is bad, he is a killer, but he also loves each and everyone one of to the fullest extent. That's all I've been told. So am I really a foolish religious nut to believe, and to love something that is JUST a concept in the mind a of a thinker, and that just maybe, it might help the world. Who is the fool/s?

Is it a God of your own conception? Is it the God of the bible? Whats the purpose of you praying to this God? What aim does it serve and how do you know this God desires praying?


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Ripple wrote: Questions!

Ripple wrote:
Questions! Insight! Someone asking me REAL questions. Thank you. Seriously, thank God.

I think it was your desperation for interaction and your unstructured posts that threw people off. There's more to interaction than just the other party, you have to realize how you are presenting yourself and how it appears to others. You appeared as a nut job with your first posts. That's why I'm liking YouTube more and more, because you can see how the person REALLY is, not just how they happen to come off in text.

Quote:
What would free ourselves from religion...A religion that has no Dogmatic stench of Satan tied to it.

I actually agree with this and I'm working on these ideas right now. Mainly it's just ramblings like your own, but at least I'm writing them down in the hopes I can pull it together in a presentable form later on. 

Quote:
We are doomed to fail because as smart as human beings are, independently, and as a whole, we are also very very very very very stupid.

While I agree in fact, the facts of today will not necessarily doom us to the future you imagine. We can change things. In fact, we MUST change things, or we will perish as a species.

The name of the idea I'm working on now is 'wonderism'. Essentially, it is the belief that we should not run from the problems of today, and we should not ignore the problems of today, but we should investigate them with the best tools we have available. We should understand our problems, because that is the only way we can overcome them to assure our extended survival. The name comes from the emotion you feel when facing a problem. You can feel fear, and run from it. You can ignore the problem and live in ignorant bliss. Or you can see the problem with a sense of wonder, as an opportunity to learn and better yourself.

So, I do not share your pessimism at the doom of humanity. I choose to face the problem of destructive religion, understand it, and use that understanding to overcome the problem. Although I don't see complete evidence for the way we should overcome destructive religion, I remain optimistic that we'll find a way.

I suggest you read The God Delusion by (horror of horrors! Surprised) Richard Dawkins to see why this debate remains important, where religion comes from (remember, we have to understand the problems we face), and where we might go in the future.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


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Ripple wrote: what is

Ripple wrote:
what is correct? Science alone? If so, then please, point me to the nearest labratory, the nearest planetarium, so I can explore for myself, what it means to be human on this planet. If science can help me with that, then may it be so. If science can do nothing but tell me we've evolved from monkeys, and that the universe was started from a massive explosion of energy, then bore me. I know all of this. I hold all that science to be TRUTH in my heart of hearts. Is science the product of God? Or of Man? Of who? Just coincidence? How about all 3 things at once. Then you can maybe grasp by position as a fence sitter.

It sounds like you need a dose of understanding of memes. I recommend The Meme Machine by Susan Blackmore, although you can get a quick review of it on Wikipedia, and you can get a good foundation for it from The Selfish Gene by (again! Surprised) Richard Dawkins.

For me, the study of memes (not yet a science, but a budding proto-science) has been very revealing, not just in studies of culture, but in every aspect of life. When you combine thorough understanding of both genetics and memetics, it opens up a whole new world of meaning for humanity. We ARE essentially cultural life-forms. We are the fusion of biology and imagination.

It seems to me, Ripple, that your posts on this forum have so far been mostly of the 'intuitive' variety. Thinking in terms of ideas and not caring so much what words you write down to express those ideas. You think in terms of metaphors and analogies. If you want to have a productive conversation here, you must respect that most people here do not think that way when they make a post here. They think in terms of arguments, concepts, socratic dialogue, logic, reason, and *primarily* evidence. Let's call this 'rational' in contrast with your more 'intuitive' style.

Here's my hypothesis for you to consider. If you can take your intuitive ideas and *translate* them into well-formed rational arguments, then both you and we will benefit from that kind of interaction. We'll benefit by hearing (really hearing) some of your creatively intuitive ideas, and you will benefit by learning a very useful way to communicate ideas with others in a more-rational way, with fewer misunderstandings and a very clear and sharp perception of reality.

I'm currently exploring the world between the rational and the intuitive, much as you appear to be. But I come from the more-rational side, and I'm exploring the more-intuitive side. This post, in fact, is my attempt to explain the more-rational position of most members of this board in the vocabulary of your more-intuitive worldview. Likewise, you are probably exploring the more-rational side by coming to this board. I'm telling you right now that it is worth your time to try on the more-rational worldview, as it will open a lot of doorways in your mind (it absolutely has for me). The key to this discussion will be evidence.

Evidence accords, faith discords. Evidence brings about agreement; the more evidence is brought to light, the stronger the agreement will be. Faith brings about disagreement; the more faith is depended upon, the greater the disagreement will be.

When people relied on faith, the sun was created by Yahweh, by Allah, was a chariot driven by Apollo, was a god itself, etc. etc. Now that we examine the sun based on evidence, we know that it is really a giant ball of hydrogen, helium and other elements in a fusion reaction, just like all the other stars in the sky, only we happen to orbit it. More faith = more disagreement. More evidence = more agreement. That is why we rely so heavily on evidence and why we so strongly reject faith (belief with no evidence).

So, we as people who favour rational arguments ask you to base all of your positive claims on evidence. If you cannot bring forth evidence to support your claims, then please don't claim to 'know' that your claims are true, and just admit they are speculation based on intuitive grounds. There is nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is clearly marked as such, and not presented as fact. If you can hold to that standard of evidence, then we can hold a productive conversation.

Quote:
And by my vile sinning hand(is masturbation and touching womens parts a sin?)

The fact that anyone has doubts about this, given our state of knowledge of the universe, is one of the reasons we think this argument is important. Religious delusions negatively affect our perceptions of sexuality, to name just one area where humanity could see improvement if it was more-rational.

Quote:
upon Gods "word" itself(the Bible, Torah, Koran) then So help me God, give me knowledge.

Looking to God (the unknown) to give you knowledge is fruitless. We acquire knowledge through our studies, which we ourselves pursue. God (the unknown) only reveals knowledge when you seek it through the hard work of investigation. What we learn, God has  nothing to do with it. What we learn, we learn through our own efforts. Keep learning!

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Ripple wrote: The

Ripple wrote:
The world..how old it is? 2000 years old, 5000 years old, 20 years old, as old as time. Who knows. Do you know? You "know" about evolution and you "know" about the Big Bang. Well I know as much as you do on those two subjects, believe me. I love Charles Darwin and Copernicus as much as I love Jesus Christ, but who cares how old the Earth is. What you care about, and should care about, is making this world a better place.

There are several reasons why knowing our natural history is important. 1) The more we know about our past, the better we can use this knowledge to make the world a better place. 2) Religious people use false claims about natural history to support their irrational worldviews which pose a threat to humanity.

You say you know a lot about specific sciences like biology, astronomy, etc. Tell me, how much have you studied science itself? The scientific method, the history of science, the philosophy of science? Can you explain why a scientific theory such as gravity or evolution is not 'just a theory' in a colloquial sense? Can you explain the importance/significance of scientific principles such as Occam's Razor, falsifiability, and methodological naturalism?

It seems to me you have superficial knowledge of the facts learned by science, but not why they are important. You don't seem to place much creedence into scientific findings, you perhaps consider them as trifling details. For instance, you should know that the question of Earth's and the universe's age is STILL in debate as far as the American public is concerned. Thus, being able to defend WHY science has been able to KNOW the age of the earth to a good degree of certainty becomes more important than just 'knowing the age of the earth'. It's the justification that is important. 

Quote:
So yes, I do counter what you have to say with more questions, because why not? Are you interested at all on the subject? I will answer every question you every will ask.

As long as you actually DO answer the questions asked, that's fine. But if you end up not answering questions, you will be seen as not pulling your weight in the conversation. Rational discourse is a two-way thing.

Quote:
My idea of Satan is not crazy. Satan was not a real person, not a fallen Angel. Satan was unleashed after the death of Christ. I don't say that in a, oh I'm right believe what I say. Everything I think, type, and say, MUST be taken in BOTH literal and figurative terms and thinking, rational thinking.

You're going to get in *repeated* trouble on these boards if you do not clearly identify which statements/claims you make are based on evidence, and which are based on speculation/figurative/metaphorical thinking. People here are using a rational way of thinking that is very skeptical. So if you make a claim that to you is metaphorical, but is misinterpreted by others here as literal, then they will continually challenge you on these kinds of things. You need to make it clear when your claims are based on evidence or just speculation.

Quote:
Satan is not some guy controlling little demons to do his work. We are all demons. We are all saints. That is human nature. We are all FDR's and we are all Adolf Hitlers.

Again, I actually understand what you are trying to say, but this is a case again of metaphor. What you say is not literally true. You need to find a way to translate this into rational terms if you want to push it as a positive claim. Otherwise, mark it as "This is just what I imagine, but blah blah blah...". Nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is identified as such.

As for Satan, I again recommend you study memes, especially their relation to the phenomenon of religion. Then you will find Satan and be able to talk about him in meaningful (rational anyway) terms. Satan is a memeplex. So yes, I can see that we are all 'demons' in the sense that we all are the ones that are influenced by memeplexes to give them a sort of 'will' in the material world. However, we are not literally demons. We are not evil creatures. We sometimes contract a contagious mental delusion (CMD) like the story in the Bible, and this causes us to alter our behaviour, sometimes for the worse. In this way, the CMD is 'like' God/Satan, and our modified behaviour is 'like' us acting like demons/angels. However, this is a metaphor and nothing more.

Metaphors are actually incredibly powerful. But they must be used with caution, because all metaphors are flawed by nature. No metaphor can 100% accurately match reality. That's why when you talk in metaphors, you should occasionally (or often!) compare the metaphor with reality to see if it is still accurate. That's why evidence is so important. 

Quote:
What path is that? The path of sin? Of religious conviction? If insurrection, of resurrection? A path of what? My own path? That I create, I unfold? It's the American Beauty. The fact that it doens't matter what path you take. It's a path. Make of that path what you will, God, Jesus Christ, or a path of Buddha. Are you going to kill me for believing in Enlightenment too? Didn't the United States of America just go through a short period of human knowledge and history called the Age of Reason, or the Age of Enlightenment. How enlightened are we really? How reasonable are we really? Reasonable enough to kill a bunch of Jews and Niggers. That's how reasonable.

 This is like a stream of consciousness kind of rambling. It reminds me of Crossmack on Youtube. While it is useful for exploring yourself and expressing impressions, it is not really useful for a rational discussion. It's more like a brainstorming session. Good to come up with ideas, but eventually you have to do the hard work of investigating deeper than just surface impressions and speculations.

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Natural, I read every word

Natural, I read every word you type, and I smile. You know why I smile, and that is of joy of the human race. If you can see where I am coming from you would realize that yes, I am a misanthrope. I hate you all. But if you also knew where I was coming from, you would realize that if I had all the money in the world, I would be the most giving philanthropist of modern day.

So of all we have "learned" and all we "know" what you know and I know, am I really a philanthropist for giving money to people? Is the Carnegian style of philanthropy..is that what we really need in this world?

Naturally, Natural, I respect you, and I talk and ramble the way I do because I weed out the idiots. I weed out the irrational, and unintuitive people. I know who to talk to, who to share my thoughts with. If you know Taoism, then you would get what I'm saying without me having to say that. If I recorded a video, and put it on YouTube, would I really be showing you my character? Or have you and others on this board simply only read a fraction of what I think, and simply put a label on me. Call me the herd, if thats what you want. But we are all the herd.

I'm not religious. I'm not even that spiritual. I'm very scientific and VERY rational. I'm very evidence based. All I'm trying to get across is, WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE ABOUT ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD. Did you come up with the Big Bang yourself? Why do you take that so seriously? Because a scientist wrote in a book saying how the universal temperature is declining towards absolute zero? Well look, if someone can come up with that and use "evidence" then by my evidence I could tell you exactly how this universe is going to end. Am I right, or is anyone right? Noone is right. Noone knows everything. Noone will come close to knowing everything. Yet everything in this world works PERFECTLY.

Human behavior for example. I'm glad you brought that subject up. Never heard of the memian thing, but believe me, it gives me a hard on already.

I'm no great thinker, no great holder of knowledge. What I do know is that human beings are very very limited in knowledge. What I also know is that at the same time we are in a time and place and mindset where human beings are very very knowledgable. So what good deeds have come out of that knowledge? What good deeds WILL come out of that knowledge? Is there such thing as good deeds? If there is good deeds aren't there such thing as bad deeds. If there are no good deeds and they are rather then just deeds, then aren't we all just a much immoral SAVAGES who relentlessly rape and pillage Mother Earth for egotisitcal and material gaining.

So who is really the key point in human existence? God? Sure, he's been a big part. But if you are atheist, then there is no God. Therefore technically, God had no part in fucking this world up. Am I true in that statement? Is that rational thinking? I want to know. Because I do seek professional help. Every week I talk to a psychologist. Does she think I'm crazy? A little bit. But not that crazy.

You know what was crazy? Jesus Christ. God in flesh? All that shit? And you really think I am crazy?

I think a lot about a lot of things. Quantum Physics, religion, whatever.

Want to know what I think a LOT more about? Human behavior. Human Existence. What is the meaning of human existence? This? So I can go down the street and pick up a dime sack from my Negro friend who wears Fila and Phatfarm? Did God do that? Did God create a culture and society where Phatfarm is okay and moral? What is moral in the eyes of not only God but of man. Are we moral creatures?

What is our inherent desires? Control? Love? Desire? God? Ungod? Science? What drives you as much as God drives me? Why does God drive me? Do I need God to drive me? Do people need God to drive their lives. Why has God been running the world then? Why has everything for the past 4000 years been labeled as "Acts of God" when you people are the same fucking people saying he doesn't exist. So who flooded the earth? Who built the Tower of Babel? Who wrote the Bible? Did God really do all that? Or did a man write those things. Did a man think those things. Does a man think all these things. Does God(if he exists) think about these things?

If(and  only if) God exists, surely he must look on us earthly beings and say, Wow, what a bunch of (insert politically incorrect statement here)

What is the politically incorrect statement? Retards? I like to think more along the lines of corrupt Genius. Very corrupt. And take a long hard look at humanity and what do you find? You find corruption and God. Why... WHY, must you all, must everyone create this DIRECT correlation between the corruption of MAN and GOD.

(I hate the fucking bible. I read it. I hate it. It's useless. It's moral stories, but people take it too seriously. If God was as rational as any of us, God would hate the bible too.)

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Then Natural, send me a PM,

Then Natural, send me a PM, and I will give you my phone number. I can talk for hours on nature, religion, Occam's razor. Intelligent conversation that would be VERY metaphorical but very translatable into human existence.


Of COURSE we are not demons. There are no such thing as demons. There is no such thing as God. Fine. I accept those facts. But think about the human complexion, and really say to yourself, very metaphorically, and very rationally, are we ALL not in complete seriousness as demonic as the devil himself and as godly as God Himself.

My point is it doesn't matter what you or I believe in. I can say a lot of things, and point to a lot of things, which you would consider evidence. A lot of science.

I'm not here to prove or disprove the garden of Eden. Nor am I here to the same about the Big Bang. We all have our own ideas, it's just using those ideas for the common good of humanity. And I am simply trying to point out, to ALL of you my complete hatred for what is called Christianity. For any TRUE Christian would know and hold to their heart the fact that Jesus Christ has had no parts in world events for the last 2000 years. If any of you take that "belief"(the belief of many people around the world and a belief you are arguing against) and say that Jesus Christ is the reason we are all in a world of shit(Full Metal Jacket) then please tell me explain to me why you are all arguing that?

Wouldn't your point be proved then and only then that there has been noone, no religion, no God that has done anything to change the world. People are stupid. People are very fucking stupid. And organize that stupidity and base that stupidity on material wealth and desire, and you have a LITERAL and FIGURATIVE equation of disaster which spits out of the function machine something along the lines as Christianity for the past two millenia. Please, I beg of you to ask me for evidence in that. I'll write a fucking book. A very readable, and coherent one at that.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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natural wrote: Ripple

natural wrote:

Ripple wrote:
what is correct? Science alone? If so, then please, point me to the nearest labratory, the nearest planetarium, so I can explore for myself, what it means to be human on this planet. If science can help me with that, then may it be so. If science can do nothing but tell me we've evolved from monkeys, and that the universe was started from a massive explosion of energy, then bore me. I know all of this. I hold all that science to be TRUTH in my heart of hearts. Is science the product of God? Or of Man? Of who? Just coincidence? How about all 3 things at once. Then you can maybe grasp by position as a fence sitter.

It sounds like you need a dose of understanding of memes. I recommend The Meme Machine by Susan Blackmore, although you can get a quick review of it on Wikipedia, and you can get a good foundation for it from The Selfish Gene by (again! Surprised) Richard Dawkins.

For me, the study of memes (not yet a science, but a budding proto-science) has been very revealing, not just in studies of culture, but in every aspect of life. When you combine thorough understanding of both genetics and memetics, it opens up a whole new world of meaning for humanity. We ARE essentially cultural life-forms. We are the fusion of biology and imagination.

It seems to me, Ripple, that your posts on this forum have so far been mostly of the 'intuitive' variety. Thinking in terms of ideas and not caring so much what words you write down to express those ideas. You think in terms of metaphors and analogies. If you want to have a productive conversation here, you must respect that most people here do not think that way when they make a post here. They think in terms of arguments, concepts, socratic dialogue, logic, reason, and *primarily* evidence. Let's call this 'rational' in contrast with your more 'intuitive' style.

Here's my hypothesis for you to consider. If you can take your intuitive ideas and *translate* them into well-formed rational arguments, then both you and we will benefit from that kind of interaction. We'll benefit by hearing (really hearing) some of your creatively intuitive ideas, and you will benefit by learning a very useful way to communicate ideas with others in a more-rational way, with fewer misunderstandings and a very clear and sharp perception of reality.

I'm currently exploring the world between the rational and the intuitive, much as you appear to be. But I come from the more-rational side, and I'm exploring the more-intuitive side. This post, in fact, is my attempt to explain the more-rational position of most members of this board in the vocabulary of your more-intuitive worldview. Likewise, you are probably exploring the more-rational side by coming to this board. I'm telling you right now that it is worth your time to try on the more-rational worldview, as it will open a lot of doorways in your mind (it absolutely has for me). The key to this discussion will be evidence.

Evidence accords, faith discords. Evidence brings about agreement; the more evidence is brought to light, the stronger the agreement will be. Faith brings about disagreement; the more faith is depended upon, the greater the disagreement will be.

When people relied on faith, the sun was created by Yahweh, by Allah, was a chariot driven by Apollo, was a god itself, etc. etc. Now that we examine the sun based on evidence, we know that it is really a giant ball of hydrogen, helium and other elements in a fusion reaction, just like all the other stars in the sky, only we happen to orbit it. More faith = more disagreement. More evidence = more agreement. That is why we rely so heavily on evidence and why we so strongly reject faith (belief with no evidence).

So, we as people who favour rational arguments ask you to base all of your positive claims on evidence. If you cannot bring forth evidence to support your claims, then please don't claim to 'know' that your claims are true, and just admit they are speculation based on intuitive grounds. There is nothing wrong with speculation as long as it is clearly marked as such, and not presented as fact. If you can hold to that standard of evidence, then we can hold a productive conversation.

Quote:
And by my vile sinning hand(is masturbation and touching womens parts a sin?)

The fact that anyone has doubts about this, given our state of knowledge of the universe, is one of the reasons we think this argument is important. Religious delusions negatively affect our perceptions of sexuality, to name just one area where humanity could see improvement if it was more-rational.

Quote:
upon Gods "word" itself(the Bible, Torah, Koran) then So help me God, give me knowledge.

Looking to God (the unknown) to give you knowledge is fruitless. We acquire knowledge through our studies, which we ourselves pursue. God (the unknown) only reveals knowledge when you seek it through the hard work of investigation. What we learn, God has nothing to do with it. What we learn, we learn through our own efforts. Keep learning!

 

Wonderful post! 


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Look, I'm not that far off

Look, I'm not that far off of a thinker. I think just a naturally as you all do, as freely as you all do, taking all things into consideration. Taking all Science especially into consideration.

I don't believe in the garden of Eden, nor do I believe Adam and Eve to have been real actual people. There is no proof for those beliefs, therefor they are beliefs of ignorance and of irrational thought.

If I did have a belief, any belief at all, it is that man is inherintly corrupt. We are liars, and sinners, and worshipers. Am I or anyone else in this world really pushing anyone to lie or sin or worship about anything they want? Has God really pushed that upon any of you or upon me?

Please read what I say as being very metaphorical. But to disregard metaphors as being an INTERGRAL part of human life, then well you mind as well throw away most of what Lao Tse, Buddha, Immanual Kant, Benjamin Franklin, Adolf Hitler, and George Bush has been telling any of us for the small fraction of our miserable lives.

You say history is history to teach us something. IF there is anything I believe in, It's History and Science and in Humanity. It's what we do with those 3 things, to make our lives better. Who is making things better for us now? World leaders and politics? Materialism? Activism and communicaion? God? I'm not asking irrational questions. They are very very hard to answer. But any insight on such subjects could snowball into a volume of human knowledge shared amongst intelligent beings.

Why hasn't Buddha, Jesus Christ, and Allah been best buddies for all this time? Why does "Allah" hate "Christ" and hate the "Holy Spirit"?
What generates this hate. What makes radicals to strap bombs to their bodies and kill... KILL in the name of Allah. Does Allah really want that? Does Allah really want to reward some fucktard with 20 virgins because he "thinks" he's doing the "right" thing. Who determines who gets 20 virgins in this world. You? Me? God? What is 20 virgins? Eternal happiness? A metaphor? Love? Heaven? Hell? Who defines heaven and hell? Is heaven real? Can heaven be human life and existence in the Garden of Eden(biblically speaking, that little strip of land between the Tigris and Euphrates) What is the "Green Zone" Human potential and hope in the form of a "safe haven" in Hell on Earth? How come Iraq has always been taught to be a beautiful place, paradise essentially, yet corrupt Christians AND Muslims are taking a big dump on that paradise? Why can't I live in a paradise, TOMORROW? Is THAT unreasonable? What's my definition of paradise, what is your definition of paradise. Is life RIGHT now as it is, is that paradise? To some it is, correct? Some people are having the times of their lives. Who are those people? You and me? OR white Christians, and the oil barons of the Middle East, who? Who is in paradise right now? Why can't I be in paradise? I want paradise, and I want it ON EARTH. Is THAT irrational thinking? Honestly?

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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Melchisidic, I repsect you

Melchisidic, I repsect you for trying. But please, don't troll my post and my thoughts. You have obviously shown little in regards to what I ask, what I seek. So stay out of my way. Please. You tryed, you started to respect my views, and thought, maybe this guy isn't that bad. But then you proved to yourself and many others, that no, you really aren't worth the time to post,
Wonderful Post!
We all know it was a wonderful post. Why? Because he poked, and prodded, and DIDN'T attack my view of the world.

Fuck off, please.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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Ripple wrote: So who is

Ripple wrote:



So who is really the key point in human existence? God? Sure, he's been a big part. But if you are atheist, then there is no God. Therefore technically, God had no part in fucking this world up. Am I true in that statement? Is that rational thinking? I want to know. Because I do seek professional help. Every week I talk to a psychologist. Does she think I'm crazy? A little bit. But not that crazy.

You know what was crazy? Jesus Christ. God in flesh? All that shit? And you really think I am crazy?

I will use your own line of reasoning from this very post and say "why should I believe those things, because someone wrote it down in some book?".

Quote:

So who flooded the earth? Who built the Tower of Babel? Who wrote the Bible? Did God really do all that? Or did a man write those things. Did a man think those things. Does a man think all these things. Does God(if he exists) think about these things?

I will use your reasoning here to try to answer this. None of those things happened, no flood, no tower of babel. But then again these are things that scientist wrote in a book. They don't know everything, we don't know they are correct. Yet someone wrote the bible, in fact many people did. But they don't know everything, we don't know they are correct.

Sigh. Its sad, that Natural's two great post go basicly disregarded. You failed to address anything they brought up . I thought there might have been a slight chance of having a discussion with you, but I was wrong. You are either truly crazy, just fucking around, a discordian or a combination of all those things. The only benefit was I killed some hours at work. Latez.

 

 

 


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Ripple wrote: We all know

Ripple wrote:

We all know it was a wonderful post. Why? Because he poked, and prodded, and DIDN'T attack my view of the world.

 It being wonderful had nothing to do with you. 


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I answered EVERYTHING that

I answered EVERYTHING that man said or regarded to me on the subject. His post did NOT go disregarded, and if you can't see that, then friend your blind faith in human ignorance has kept you from seeing my true desires. I'm not here to prove anything or even everything right OR wrong. I'm just trying to prove how stupid and how potential things on this earth could be.

Everything you have asked has been addressed by me. You want to fucking ask me anything, if Natural thinks he is failing to get anything out of me by typing in paragraphs, then give me 20 fucking questions. I will answer every one of them. And if I can't answer them fully, then ask me 20 more questions on the subject.

Don't be frustrated with me because of the fact that I am SO frustrated by people JUST LIKE YOU. YOU. Not Natural, Or even Sapient, or Martha, or anyone. YOU. I don't like you. You have done little for human existence, and you have little input. Write me an essay on how YOU can change the world. I will read it. I will analyze. And digest, and spit something out that might help you. But constantly attack me, and I will shit in your mothers mouth. Because I could care less about you. Let me provoke, let me touch a nerve in your body, invoke some EMOTION into you, and make you speak your fucking mind, your fucking heart. If you CAN'T do that, if you CAN'T write me a 5 paragraph Free Respons Essay on the topic

HOW CAN I or ANYONE CHANGE THE WORLD?
,
then you have little to offer to me, or anyone else. Eat your frozen burrito, and go jack off to pictures of naked beautiful women. Noone is stopping you. But if you want to get something, anything out of my existence, then please, write me a fucking book.

Want me to write a 5 paragraph essay? Would you read it? Then tell me to do so. And I will write you a masterpeice.

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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Ripple wrote: What is

Ripple wrote:
What is correct?
Do any of us, even scientists, truly now what is correct? Doesn't even have to be completely correct.

Think of truth like an arrow. We look at the arrow and we ask, "How true is this arrow?" A true arrow is one which strikes the place that you aim it at reliably. If your aim is good and steady, and the arrow is true, you will strike the target. If the arrow is untrue, you will probably miss the target, regardless of how well you aim.

The only way to Know how true an arrow is is to Test the arrow by using it. You aim at a spot, fire the arrow, and if it strikes close to the target, you gain confidence in the arrow. If you wildly miss the target, you lose confidence in the arrow.

Claims about reality are like arrows. You test the claim by making a prediction (aiming). For instance, I claim that objects fall according to the theory of gravity. The theory of gravity makes predictions about how fast objects will fall, in what direction they'll fall, etc. I can make a prediction, such as 'if I drop this ball from a height of 4.9 metres, it will strike the ground in 1 second'. That's me aiming the arrow, making a prediction. Then I fire the arrow, run an experiment or make an observation. If the ball hits the ground in 1 second, then we gain confidence in the arrow/claim that objects fall according to the theory of gravity. If something else happens, then we lose confidence in the arrow/claim.

 So, claims are like arrows. We learn about the truth of claims by testing them against reality, with observation and evidence.

So, do we know what is 'truly correct'? If you are asking whether we Know ultimate reality, then no. No one does. But we DO know SOMETHING. We know that the claims of science are true like arrows are true, and we know that the claims of religion, when tested against reality are FAR less true than the claims of science.

Some claims in religion are not easily tested against reality. Some of them REQUIRE subjective interpretation and experience which cannot be independently verified. These claims are currently unfalsifiable, and therefore rejected by scientific-minded folks. But those claims in religion which ARE testable, usually fail the reality check.

 

Quote:
I pray to a God that didn't flood the earth, didn't head the Crusades, and didn't kill the Jews. I pray to a God, that right now in my life, gives me SOMETHING to live for.

Question: How do you know that that god isn't in your own mind? Are you maybe talking to yourself when you pray? How have you tested the claim/arrow that God exists outside of our minds?

If God really is just in your mind, then wouldn't it be better to know that? Shouldn't you investigate that possibility? If you don't like it, try to prove it wrong (that's how scientists tackle theories they don't like). Find some evidence that shows that God is not just in our minds.

Or, maybe you could try on that hypothesis for a while. Maybe god really is all just in our minds. God is a belief that influences people. It is a belief that can be explained to others and cause them to believe it too. But God is not a supernatural thing with all knowledge and all power. Its knowledge and power is strictly limited to what humans know and can do. If God is in your mind, then should you trust everything it 'tells' you? Are you 100% right all the time, or do you sometimes make mistakes in judgment? No, nobody is always right. So why should we expect God to be always right? God has this delusion that he's all powerful after all. That's a pretty scary delusion. God is like a megalomaniac. But that's the god of the bible. There are other gods. Some people say god is love, etc. Maybe some of those gods are good gods to follow.

But then, there are lots of people who don't follow any god. Maybe god is not necessary for human happiness. Shouldn't you explore that possibility too?

Some ideas to think about.

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A hope, a desire.

Why do you need a god to give you hope and desire? Can't you think of your own hopes and desires? Here's a great hope/desire to live for: The hope that one day the human race will find long-lasting peace and prosperity for everyone on earth, and will ascend one day to explore the REST of this enormous universe that we have only BEGUN to understand.

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But does that hope and desire take me to a place that is productive and makes the world a better place? Who knows? Who cares?

Don't you care? Don't you care if perhaps you are contributing to the contagious mental delusions of the world that threaten our survival? I would care if I were. I would want to know that I'm not, that my beliefs are as undeluded as possible.

Are my desires leading to the betterment of the world, or are they getting in the way of that? I would want to know.

That is why I remain firmly grounded in the more-rational side of the debate, and I'm only exploring the more-intuitive side. I find intuition very useful, but when trying to learn about REALITY, it is no match for the more-rational approach. 

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Did anyone care or really believe that Siddartha Guatama was going to eventually affect the lives of billions of people? Did Guatama really care at the time if or if not he was going to affect the lives of that many people? Did Jesus Christ?

Actually, that's a good question to ask, but perhaps for different reasons than you intended. I think that no, Jesus and Bhudda did not really think too carefully at the long-term implications of their ideas. Probably they simply did not have the means to ask and answer such questions. But today, we are beginning to be able to answer such questions (again, see memetics), and as we plough forward, we should use this understanding to help us avoid the problems caused by allowing speculation to be taught as fact.

If what you want is a religion free from tainted dogma, then the best way to achieve that is to apply the rational methods to understanding religion and how it becomes tainted in the first place. Studying the origins of Christianity is an *excellent* way to gain insight on this subject. I'm sure the origins of other religions would reveal similar information. 

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I pray to my own God. Not because anyone told me to. My whole life I've been told to stay far, very very far from God. He is bad, he is a killer, but he also loves each and everyone one of to the fullest extent. That's all I've been told. So am I really a foolish religious nut to believe, and to love something that is JUST a concept in the mind a of a thinker, and that just maybe, it might help the world. Who is the fool/s?

The fool is the one who believes his own deceptions and is happy to believe them.

Science is the way to eliminate self-deception.

Instead of saying 'maybe, just maybe I can help the world', use the philosophy of wonderism to get over that hump. Yes you CAN help the world by understanding the problems you find in it and using that understanding to change it for the better. The way to understanding, the best technique we have right now, is science and rational thinking.

Yes, science can still learn a lot about intuition and non-rational thinking, but science is currently at the point where this knowledge is coming very very soon, and we can use what we know NOW to gain USEFUL knowledge for the future. In other words, if you learn enough science, you will see what is wrong with the world with enough clarity that you will start to see how we can change it and solve its problems.

Inuitive thinking will only get you so far. The problem is that it does not question itself. When intuition doesn't question itself, you end up with a lot of false beliefs held on faith. Inuition needs to take a back seat to evidence. When the evidence points in the opposite direction, intuition needs to shut up and follow the evidence.

Question your intuitions, don't trust them 100%. Don't trust rationality 100% either, but then it does not promise 100% certainty. When you want to make a claim, if it is an intuitive claim, then find evidence to back it up. If you can't find evidence, label it as a speculative claim. If Bush had used this procedure years ago, there would be no mess in Iraq that we have today. That's enough evidence I need to see that rationality is better than intuition when it comes to important decisions about the world. 

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Where is Sapient anyways?

Where is Sapient anyways? Strike 4, or 5, or 6?

Invite me on to the Laura Ingraham show. Have a war of words with me. Will I change your mind or anyone elses mind? No, and I hope I don't. But would I make people think, make you think, Make Laura fucking Ingraham think? Yeah, probably.

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Natural, do you really look

Natural, do you really look at a person like me. Knowing that I might, just might know more about science then you do(not claiming a god damn thing) and add in the fact that I've already claimed myself to be a servant of knowledge and enemy of religion, I've already claimed myself to believe FULLY in the scientific proccess.

But do you as well maybe, just maybe assume that I am trying to attribute the scientific process to much more then just science? Can I attribute the scientific process to the unfolding of events which is this Brave New World? Is human intellect and design scientific or not scientific at all. I ask these questions so I can take this big fucking experiment which is human existense, and WANT to make sure that I know all I can before I even begin to put the the Earth into a hypothesis. If this world was a scientific experiment, take what you know. Everything you KNOW. The Big Bang, gravity, Strong Gravitational Force, Weak Gravitational Force, electromagnetism, alpha, omega particles, hydrogen atoms, the sun, theory of relativity. Essentially think of SCIENCE as we know it.

Take that and then realize I'm not trying to falsify or claim anything about this universe. To try would be to attempt to personify God(impossible to do)

What I am doing is just thinking, maybe, what if, Science is all part of a ... Cosmic Push? A cycle of life? Hindu's and Buddhists believe in a cycle of life. Argue that for a minute if you wish.

Ever heard St. Stephen by the Grateful Dead? Speeding arrow, sharp and narrow, what a lot of fleeting matters you have spurned. We areall  William Tell, we have all started a revolution. Human life is a revolutionary evolutionary movement of ideas, ALWAYS. So WHY, in all of the history of man, all of the sudden, disregard the idea of God? Because it blinds me? ME? Am I truly blinded by much of anything? Can you answer that for me? Can you answer me on how I can fully believe in what a lot of Quantum Physics(very smart people study quantum physics) has to say, and still believe in God. What does Quantum physics really prove or disprove about God? Anything? Everything? Nothing at all?

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  All apologies for not

 

All apologies for not answering your questions on the is God ourselves part. That is a huge concern of mine, and what that would do to people if they really believed it. I mean, so many of has believed in much more asinine things. Cough war in Iraq.

Natural, God doesn't move me to think the way I do. Nature moves me. God doesn't push me to be in the places that I want to be. My strive for knowing the NATURAL world has given me a desire to learn everything I can about the "natural" rather that be as natural as taking a shit or as natural as the fact that GOD MIGHT EXIST. I can have these COMPLETE ideas that I hold to be true in own mind now, and not have a single ounce of faith in "god" But am I any more ignorant or less ignorant then I am now?

I'll get back to you on is God in ourselves, because it is a very worthy subject. I must think for now, and get back to you.

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Ripple wrote: So of all we

Ripple wrote:
So of all we have "learned" and all we "know" what you know and I know, am I really a philanthropist for giving money to people? Is the Carnegian style of philanthropy..is that what we really need in this world?

No, that's clearly insufficient. We need a direction to apply the resources (like money) to. Clearly, putting the money into bigger bombs hasn't got us where we want to go. But that's what happens when people are left to wander through existence without an eye toward the future. We need more than just money, we need a strong, rational vision of the future that is compelling and worth fighting (or at least influencing) for. 


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Naturally, Natural, I respect you, and I talk and ramble the way I do because I weed out the idiots.

Careful with the insults. You basically just insulted most people on this board who didn't get you. But again, was it all their fault they misunderstood you, or is some of that your responsibility too? Again, discourse is a two way thing. You need to be aware not just of what you say but how you say it.

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I weed out the irrational, and unintuitive people.

Eventually you'll have to stop weeding them out, because most people suffer from both. And we can't achieve what we want to achieve in our ivory towers. We need the support of most people. Eventually, we'll need to explain everything to them and get them on our level. Besides, even you and I suffer from irrationality and unintuitiveness. We are not perfect. That's something important to understand.

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'm not religious. I'm not even that spiritual. I'm very scientific and VERY rational. I'm very evidence based. All I'm trying to get across is, WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE ABOUT ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD.

Again, go back to the arrow theory of truth. It's all about predictions and reliability. That's how we can know things about the world.

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Did you come up with the Big Bang yourself?

Nope.

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Why do you take that so seriously?

Because it was determined by the scientific method, which is a reliable 'arrow'.

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Am I right, or is anyone right? Noone is right.

No one is 100% right, but some people are more right than others. Their arrows are more true; their claims make the best predictions and the predictions are verified most often.

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Noone knows everything.

But we do know something.

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Noone will come close to knowing everything.

But we will continually get better and better knowledge.

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Yet everything in this world works PERFECTLY.

Perfectly? Is that a metaphor or a literal claim? What is perfect? Something real or is it an abstract idea? I'm not actually interested in the answer, I'm more pointing out the dangers of you making bold claims without identifying whether they are speculative or not.

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Never heard of the memian thing, but believe me, it gives me a hard on already.

lol, it's better than Viagra, man. Cool

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I'm no great thinker, no great holder of knowledge. What I do know is that human beings are very very limited in knowledge. What I also know is that at the same time we are in a time and place and mindset where human beings are very very knowledgable. So what good deeds have come out of that knowledge? What good deeds WILL come out of that knowledge? Is there such thing as good deeds? If there is good deeds aren't there such thing as bad deeds. If there are no good deeds and they are rather then just deeds, then aren't we all just a much immoral SAVAGES who relentlessly rape and pillage Mother Earth for egotisitcal and material gaining.

False dichotomy. Good/bad is not a question of 'there is absolute good and bad' vs. 'there is no such thing as good and bad, and we are all savages'. There are many alternatives. This is a perfect example of where intuitive thinking trips up and rational thinking is needed to see the problem. Remember wonderism? When there is a problem, do not avoid it, do not ignore it, do not destroy it. Instead, take a step back and investigate it.

Problem: The question of morality

Avoidance: There is no such thing as morality

Ignorance: Let's all just get along

Destruction: My morality is better than yours

Investigation: Could morality have a natural origin?

So, wonderism here is expressed in the concept that morality is not an either/or thing, but perhaps there's a natural explanation for it. And there is. We DON'T need a god to explain it, we DON'T need to accept the naive alternative that it does not exist at all. And we DON'T need to kill anybody to answer the question. And yet, morality STILL exists. That's the wonder of it. The universe is SO cool that such a thing is possible. F'ing amazing, if you ask me.

 I don't want to go too deeply into it, as it would side-track the conversation, but if you want to know the natural explanation of morality, it comes from the evolution of biology and culture. Biology evolving the emotional hooks that are needed to influence people, and culture evolving specific rules of conduct to be communicated between the people. Again, I refer you to memetics.

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So who is really the key point in human existence? God? Sure, he's been a big part. But if you are atheist, then there is no God. Therefore technically, God had no part in fucking this world up. Am I true in that statement? Is that rational thinking? I want to know.

Depends on your definition of god in this context. If god is the bible god, a literal being named Yahweh, then no, he had nothing to do with it. If god is the *concept* of the bible god, a metaphorical character called Yahweh, then yes, such a 'thing' did play a large part in fucking the world up, especially things like religious wars an persecution, but also in holding back science and other human endeavours.

If god is the universe excluding humanity, then no, it was primarily human action that fucked the world up. If god is the memeplex of the Bible or some other 'holy' book, then surely such ideas have caused problems in the world. If god is the creative 'force' that drives evolution, then yeah, the results of evolution (us) are what fucked the world up, so god is responsible.

See, this is why intuitive thinking can only get you so far. It is too imprecise to lead to Knowledge; at best it can lead to educated guessing and 'hunches' and speculations, but not demonstrable knowledge. It lends too easily to the fallacy of equivocation. The language of rational discourse is much more precise and less prone to errors of this sort.

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You know what was crazy? Jesus Christ. God in flesh? All that shit? And you really think I am crazy?

You know what's even crazier? The son of a bitch may not have even existed in history. There's a very good case to be made that Jesus is a mythical character like Hercules or Achilles. They essentially wrote him into history and then killed anyone who doubted him.

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I think a lot about a lot of things. Quantum Physics, religion, whatever.

Me too. My mind never fucking stops. Sometimes it's pathological, like when I write long posts in online forums when I should be working.

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Want to know what I think a LOT more about? Human behavior. Human Existence. What is the meaning of human existence? This? So I can go down the street and pick up a dime sack from my Negro friend who wears Fila and Phatfarm? Did God do that? Did God create a culture and society where Phatfarm is okay and moral? What is moral in the eyes of not only God but of man. Are we moral creatures?

Yes we are moral creatures. As for the god stuff, be careful with the metaphors and equivocations. Which god? What EXACTLY are you asking about? Instead of using the word g-o-d, try rephrasing the question using naturalistic vocabulary. Then maybe you will get a meaningful answer from some of us. Did a supernatural god create our culture and society? I severely doubt it. So, what natural 'god' could be responsible for our culture and society? Perhaps evolution? Evolution DOES give a natural explaination for the existence of culture and society. Memetics (cultural evolution) DOES give a natural explanation for the character of that culture (Phatfarm, Fila, etc.)

As for the nature of existence. Have you ever asked yourself, What if everything really IS natural? Maybe that feeling of incredulity you get ("No! It just COULDN'T be natural. I just can't imagine it.&quotEye-wink is actually a perverted sense of true wonder. Instead maybe you should be thinking "Wow! I cannot understand how it works, but it DOES, and there's no need for a supernatural guy to help it along. The universe just IS that cool."

So, is getting high (metaphor for living a life with no purpose) all there is to reality? That would be a very naive view of it. Just because there is no *supernatural* meaning/purpose to reality doesn't automatically mean there is *no* meaning/purpose to reality. Just like the universe is cool enough to generate life from non-life, it is also cool enough that it can generate meaning from no meaning. In fact, that is what humans do and what humans are. We are the universe creating its own meaning for itself. Now isn't THAT fucking cool? That's what I'm talking about man, the universe is more wonderful than you can possibly imagine (to twist a bit from Dawkins and a bit from Lucas).

There is no need for a supernatural god. In fact, the universe would be boring if there was one. The really cool part of the universe is that it works WITHOUT a god pulling the strings.

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What is our inherent desires? Control? Love? Desire? God? Ungod? Science? What drives you as much as God drives me? Why does God drive me? Do I need God to drive me? Do people need God to drive their lives. Why has God been running the world then? Why has everything for the past 4000 years been labeled as "Acts of God" when you people are the same fucking people saying he doesn't exist. So who flooded the earth? Who built the Tower of Babel? Who wrote the Bible? Did God really do all that? Or did a man write those things. Did a man think those things. Does a man think all these things. Does God(if he exists) think about these things?

Here's another speculation to mess with your head Eye-wink. How many neurons does it take to be conscious? I mean conscious of your own behaviour and your own perspective in the world? Does a fly with 100,000 neurons have a consciousness? How about an even more primitive animal with only a few hundred neurons? Well, we do know that humans are conscious, so *somewhere* between 1 and a few hundred billion neurons lies the possibility (not guarantee) of attaining consciousness.

But how do neurons attain consciousness? We don't know exactly, but we do know that it is by cooperating with each other through interaction. And we do know that they interact with electrical pulses and chemicals called neurotransmitters. Essentially, neurons talk to each other, and somehow this gives rise to a consciousness that is greater than any single neuron alone, and in fact greater than 100 billion neurons separately (one human is smarter than a million flies).

What else communicates in a cooperative manner? Humans of course. 100 humans working together can achieve greater accomplishments than a single person working alone or even than 100 people working separately. There are exceptions, of course; one Van Gogh is worth more than 100 amateur painters (but no one person could have coordinated the moon landing, for instance). The point is the potential.

So, if somewhere in the neighbourhood of billions of neurons can create a single unified consciousness in the form of a human person, is it possible that somewhere in the neighbourhood of billions of human people can create a single unified meta-consciousness? What form would it be in? Like neurons, it would probably be an interconnected network. What exists today as the largest interconnected network of human minds? Why, the internet of course. How big is the internet? The size of the world. So, is it possible that the internet is the nascent brain of the world? Perhaps it's not conscious yet, but maybe one day it will be. Perhaps the crisis we are going through in the world is the mind of the world becoming conscious of itself. Gaia is waking up. Let's hope she's not too pissed. 

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If(and only if) God exists, surely he must look on us earthly beings and say, Wow, what a bunch of (insert politically incorrect statement here)

Since you're in speculation-mode, then maybe God is the unconscious meta-awareness of humanity (like Gaia above). In that sense, God itself does not say "Wow, what a bunch of ___", because God is not yet conscious of itself (it doesn't know and understand that it is the meta-awareness of humanity). But parts of god (communities, like this one) do express the notion that "Wow, people are a bunch of ____". Maybe this 'god' experiences things like a dream, and we (as a group) are one of the characters in the dream, so when we say "Theists are irrational", that's 'god' actually dreaming a character in his dream saying "Theists are irrational". Maybe we need to tell the larger god-awareness, "Hey, you are dreaming! Wake up, dude! We have important problems to solve, while you are snoring and farting in bed."

Maybe god is in a lucid dream right now, and we just need to wake him up and show him the real damage his dream has cost us. Maybe we are god's subconscious yelling, "Hey douchebag! Stop daydreaming with your finger on the button, you're going to cause a nuclear war!"

Are you reading my neurotransmitters? 

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What is the politically incorrect statement? Retards? I like to think more along the lines of corrupt Genius. Very corrupt. And take a long hard look at humanity and what do you find? You find corruption and God. Why... WHY, must you all, must everyone create this DIRECT correlation between the corruption of MAN and GOD.

If we are god's neurons, then man's corruption IS god's corruption. Jesus preaches that we need to seek forgiveness from him. "HEY BUDDY! You need to seek forgiveness from US! The religion you started is WAY fucked up, and you need to take responsibility for the mess it created."

The saviour who needs to be saved. The messiah who needs to be led. The 'god' who is imperfect, who really IS just in our minds, and who depends on our belief in him for his survival.

 Jesus wants us to conform to his morality? I say Jesus should conform to OUR morality. The secular world has made much progress in 2000 years beyond religious notions of morality. Jesus needs to stop preaching and start listening. STFU Jesus, it's our turn. We are smarter than you and we can prove it. You are hereby dethroned, deposed, usurped.

We got some new laws that religion needs to obey if religion expects us to respect it. 

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(I hate the fucking bible. I read it. I hate it. It's useless. It's moral stories, but people take it too seriously. If God was as rational as any of us, God would hate the bible too.)

Exactly. The way to educate god on the topic of rationality is to educate his followers. That's what this website is for.

Eventually, we'll need to rewrite his book, too. I think the study of the natural origins of religion, combined with a functioning theory of memetics, will help us to achieve this long-term goal. 

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Ripple wrote: Then Natural,

Ripple wrote:
Then Natural, send me a PM, and I will give you my phone number. I can talk for hours on nature, religion, Occam's razor. Intelligent conversation that would be VERY metaphorical but very translatable into human existence.

Unfortunately, not practical. I live in Prague, so phone is out of the question for me (mobile; too expensive). I *would* like to see you do a video or three and put them up on YouTube. You would reach a lot more people that way, and I can point you to some VERY cool people on there that have similar ideas to you and you can start some great conversations. If you want to peruse my subscription list, you can find who I think are the most interesting and intelligent people on there (My Profile). Start with dexarouskies, FantasticBabblings, crossmack, and numsii for people who are somewhat similar to what you are expressing here.

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Of COURSE we are not demons.

Ah, but you forget that the people on this board deal with people who make and *believe* such claims as 'we are all demons', and so they have no way of knowing if you are being literal or metaphorical. That's why they jump on you and demand evidence and ask questions like "How do you know I'm a demon?"

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y point is it doesn't matter what you or I believe in.

My point is that it does. People in the world really do believe wacky shit, and they vote, and their candidates literally have their fingers on the button, and the candidates believe the wacky shit too. It matters what we believe. Our survival depends on it.

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We all have our own ideas, it's just using those ideas for the common good of humanity.

That I can agree on.

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If any of you take that "belief"(the belief of many people around the world and a belief you are arguing against) and say that Jesus Christ is the reason we are all in a world of shit(Full Metal Jacket) then please tell me explain to me why you are all arguing that?

Because it is true. Belief in Jesus Christ has caused many problems in the world and continues to. We want to stop that.

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Wouldn't your point be proved then and only then that there has been noone, no religion, no God that has done anything to change the world.

But it has changed the world. Christianity, the belief in Jesus, plus the stories in the Bible, has caused serious problems. Other religions too.

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People are stupid. People are very fucking stupid. And organize that stupidity and base that stupidity on material wealth and desire, and you have a LITERAL and FIGURATIVE equation of disaster which spits out of the function machine something along the lines as Christianity for the past two millenia.

Yep, and we have a method whereby *individual* stupidity can be detected and eliminated so that *group* stupidity is reduced to a minimum. That method is the scientific method, and the tools of reason and rationality. It's basically just an appeal to evidence to support claims.

Remember, evidence accords, faith discords. If everyone relied on evidence for important world/nation-level decisions, then the world would be FAR better off right now. 

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Just so you natural, who I

Just so you natural, who I believe can actually believe this to be so from such a person as meself, but half of things you say are nothing but reaffirment for strong beliefs I already hold over the history of mankind.

If you are sooooooo into this memian shit from what I guess I think I know about it, then you, you right now is still personifying Jesus Christ. I mean think. For one second. IF YOU as a human being doesn't even know if Christ exists; why would he want to help YOU in particular. Why would he want to help any "Christian" in particular. Because I tell you what is a major society ill today is the fact that you are still a  Christian. You have the same mindset as a Christian in that you won't shake this pre-conceived notion of who Jesus Christ really might have been. If we are all scientificially bound here, then why not consider the possiblity.

Jesus Christ died for the sins of man, and resurrected. Why oh why, does by Buddhist faith hold that to be a very REASONABLE AND RATIONABLE THING in the EYE and NEURONS of very many people.

Then begin to tell me that neurons and electrons in particular are not very..very weird. And I should end that topic on a note that I WENT INSANE thinking about just that. So if you want to exlore science, go for it. I don't mind sharing a thing, a thought or two, of just what might have been. I mean hell, it might have been Noah's Fucking Ark but you would never know till at least you died. So hey, what the fuck?

So take a combination of the fact that Jesus himself might full well have been a Buddha(talk to a Buddhist monk about that, I wouldn't have a fucking clue) and then ask them if they believe in resurrection and life after death. Think of those two words, analyze it, then explain THAT with science. Then go ahead and tell me a rational word or two saying that the whole system of faith (Buddha and Jesus are probably best friends right now) is completely debunked and has been debunked by the scientific method.


---------------======natural----Maybe this 'god' experiences things like a dream, and we (as a group) are one of the characters in the dream, so when we say "Theists are irrational", that's 'god' actually dreaming a character in his dream saying "Theists are irrational". Maybe we need to tell the larger god-awareness, "Hey, you are dreaming! Wake up, dude! We have important problems to solve, while you are snoring and farting in bed."


Ahh and maybe then, "GOD" is so crazy and irrational yet so rational might let such things come true. Why not? It was your idea. He can flood the earth...right?

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.


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Ripple wrote: Look, I'm not

Ripple wrote:
Look, I'm not that far off of a thinker. I think just a naturally as you all do, as freely as you all do, taking all things into consideration. Taking all Science especially into consideration.

I don't believe in the garden of Eden, nor do I believe Adam and Eve to have been real actual people. There is no proof for those beliefs, therefor they are beliefs of ignorance and of irrational thought.

If I did have a belief, any belief at all, it is that man is inherintly corrupt. We are liars, and sinners, and worshipers. Am I or anyone else in this world really pushing anyone to lie or sin or worship about anything they want? Has God really pushed that upon any of you or upon me?

Please read what I say as being very metaphorical. But to disregard metaphors as being an INTERGRAL part of human life, then well you mind as well throw away most of what Lao Tse, Buddha, Immanual Kant, Benjamin Franklin, Adolf Hitler, and George Bush has been telling any of us for the small fraction of our miserable lives.

You say history is history to teach us something. IF there is anything I believe in, It's History and Science and in Humanity. It's what we do with those 3 things, to make our lives better. Who is making things better for us now? World leaders and politics? Materialism? Activism and communicaion? God? I'm not asking irrational questions. They are very very hard to answer. But any insight on such subjects could snowball into a volume of human knowledge shared amongst intelligent beings.

Why hasn't Buddha, Jesus Christ, and Allah been best buddies for all this time? Why does "Allah" hate "Christ" and hate the "Holy Spirit"?
What generates this hate. What makes radicals to strap bombs to their bodies and kill... KILL in the name of Allah. Does Allah really want that? Does Allah really want to reward some fucktard with 20 virgins because he "thinks" he's doing the "right" thing. Who determines who gets 20 virgins in this world. You? Me? God? What is 20 virgins? Eternal happiness? A metaphor? Love? Heaven? Hell? Who defines heaven and hell? Is heaven real? Can heaven be human life and existence in the Garden of Eden(biblically speaking, that little strip of land between the Tigris and Euphrates) What is the "Green Zone" Human potential and hope in the form of a "safe haven" in Hell on Earth? How come Iraq has always been taught to be a beautiful place, paradise essentially, yet corrupt Christians AND Muslims are taking a big dump on that paradise? Why can't I live in a paradise, TOMORROW? Is THAT unreasonable? What's my definition of paradise, what is your definition of paradise. Is life RIGHT now as it is, is that paradise? To some it is, correct? Some people are having the times of their lives. Who are those people? You and me? OR white Christians, and the oil barons of the Middle East, who? Who is in paradise right now? Why can't I be in paradise? I want paradise, and I want it ON EARTH. Is THAT irrational thinking? Honestly?

Dude, seriously. Study memetics. Just study it. Most of your questions will be answered, but I cannot answer them all for you. This is the part where you have to turn off the intuitive brainstorm session and sit down and do some hard work in rationally investigating your own questions.

Part of my job (my personal mission) is to give you some tantalizing answers to your questions, but the other part is to get you to take up the torch yourself and start your own quest in search of answers. The wise man on the hill says, "Your quest is to study memetics and come back when you see how memetics and genetics interact to create religion."

We are all students, but we are also all teachers. I cannot be strictly a teacher, and you cannot be strictly a student. You need to do your own research so you can teach others as well. This is how we'll change the world, by inspiring others to follow us in our investigation of the universe. It is not a one way thing, it is a two way thing. Investigation is not just asking questions, it's also about finding answers.

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Ripple wrote: Melchisidic,

Ripple wrote:
Melchisidic, I repsect you for trying. But please, don't troll my post and my thoughts. You have obviously shown little in regards to what I ask, what I seek. So stay out of my way. Please. You tryed, you started to respect my views, and thought, maybe this guy isn't that bad. But then you proved to yourself and many others, that no, you really aren't worth the time to post,
Wonderful Post!
We all know it was a wonderful post. Why? Because he poked, and prodded, and DIDN'T attack my view of the world.

Fuck off, please.

Not likely to win many friends that way. Try not taking it too seriously. 

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Please don't ask me about

Please don't ask me about metaphors for life, especially smoking weed. We've all been really fucking stoned(hah I made a funny fish)

Don't get me started on some Gaia is waking shit man. If you don't even rationally think or is able to disprove something like that with the scientific method, then man I really wish we were all pagan right now. Zues has been throwin his bolts and Aphrodite hasn't been having her gangbang that lasted a whole quick minute.

Stepping on other people faith's are just as devestating or as ridiculous as me coming to this Board and doing just the same to all of you. Don't call me crazy, don't call me stupid, don't call me anything. Respect me for how I think, and just KNOW(knowledge, you want scientific method on that and that is very very experimental) then you would realize it does not matter what I believe in. If you people are truly interested in that, then I would be pleased to use my effort. But if you are simply interested in making this world...a cooler place, then by all means, literally, figurally, scientifically, lets do just that.

Religion is very harmful. But you have to understand that "GOD" in the eyes of these people could be herded much more towards, wow God is really kind of cool and he isn't that bad and really it's us that is fucking it up(talk about collective conciousness) then I'm just asking you, wake up from your dream? please? God is a powerful tool, if it can be used as a means to make man...what.. what is the word for what God has done to man the past 2000 years, then really sit here and explain to me rationally how God couldn't be used as a means of good, if you just change the definition of who God is or rather who got might be.

You want to take a lot of dissociative hallucinagenics in combination with mushrooms and xtc, then take a fucking brain trip when you think of what collective conciousness really is if you can explain that in scientific terms. Seriously if someone can tell me THAT I will PM you my phone number. I will watch any video you send me. Tell me how that is explained, because it would have saved me a real fucking mind trip where I WAS doing things with my mind that is not explainable by current human means, other then the explanation that I was really high. Fuck that, what I saw and experienced was much more and different, and transcended reality. Because my brother was sitting on the same fucking couch seeing the same thing. So then, and ONLY THEN should you consider something called collective conciousness and approach me or anyone else(timothy leary if he was alive) on something so fucking trippy as that. Because I know some of you haven't been in such a mindset to explore such SCIENTIFICALLY explainable subjects of matter, that CAN'T be debunked because it has been experienced by many many others for a very very long time. So call me irfuckingrational and let that be the end of what she wrote.

If the Christian, Muslim, or Judaic God was sooo all powerful to affect every day human life. Why doesn't he do it now? Did he love those human beings more? Did he hate them more? Was God really ever a PMSing little bitch at one time in history? What kind of Memes class are you taking friend? Shake loose your conception of "GOD" first and then consider everything of what "GOD" might be. Not might really be, or a suggestion that it is even remotely close to that. If it fucking helps you and your neuronically obsessed nogin on the subject of collective conciousness...then why isn't God collective conciousness? Can you disprove that with the scientific method. I believe in the method as much as you do man. Believe me, its a great great thing. We are smarter for it. But put it to real use and don't say can I prove it but rather ask yourself can I really be in the position to disprove it. Everyone, including myself to some extent is really stuck in this position.

A higher way of  thinking, free of "well the bible says this" then really wouldn't collective conciousness be a whole hell of a lot better. You guys are so into, changing how religious people think because they ruin the world, well make them change how they think. You WONT do it by just saying they are wrong.  Tell them how to worship a better "GOD" if they were going to worship one anyways. So fuck you if you tell me, then, and only then and in that mindset, that for the world to be a better place, with the same mindset and conviction, then please tell me that I am wrong.

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Ripple wrote: HOW CAN I or

Ripple wrote:
HOW CAN I or ANYONE CHANGE THE WORLD?

1) We can personally change the world through our actions. We can see how the world is, imagine how we want it to be, come up with a plan to achieve that goal, and follow the plan to achieve it.

2) We can change the world through other people, by influencing them. We can plant ideas, true or false, in their minds to modify their behaviours. Of course, this requires their acceptance, but it is a widely used method of changing the world. It's what makes us human, in fact.

3) We can change the world by constructing contagious ideas, which not only modify the behaviour of those affected, but cause the affected person to pass on the idea to even more people, who spread it to more people, etc. This is where religion, politics and science play roles. This is what we need to master in order to eliminate the stranglehold of contagious mental delusions (CMDs; such as Christianity, Islam, nationalism, etc.).

 

By the way, I lose respect for you when you allow your frustration with others to cause you to berate them. Just so you know. 

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Well you if you see my

Well you if you see my respect, and if you even give me an ounce of respect, its more then anything I could ask from a human being. It's why I ask questions like, why is Jesus Christ not respected? Did HE HIMSELF so terrible things? Or are we just unrealistically expecting as "Christian thinkers" that Jesus is supposed to be this dude who for one, really cares about what happens to us.

Free Will man. I plan on corroborating with any intelectual who is just willing to listen and share. My entire life. It won't stop, because Nature...ahh nature is a fascinating, obsessing, and world-consuming concept of life...and maybe God. So why not ask questions? What's for dinner?

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Ripple wrote: Natural, do

Ripple wrote:
Natural, do you really look at a person like me. Knowing that I might, just might know more about science then you do(not claiming a god damn thing) and add in the fact that I've already claimed myself to be a servant of knowledge and enemy of religion, I've already claimed myself to believe FULLY in the scientific proccess.

But do you as well maybe, just maybe assume that I am trying to attribute the scientific process to much more then just science? Can I attribute the scientific process to the unfolding of events which is this Brave New World? Is human intellect and design scientific or not scientific at all. I ask these questions so I can take this big fucking experiment which is human existense, and WANT to make sure that I know all I can before I even begin to put the the Earth into a hypothesis. If this world was a scientific experiment, take what you know. Everything you KNOW. The Big Bang, gravity, Strong Gravitational Force, Weak Gravitational Force, electromagnetism, alpha, omega particles, hydrogen atoms, the sun, theory of relativity. Essentially think of SCIENCE as we know it.

Danger Will Robinson! Unclear metaphor. I'm trying to interpret what you're saying but I don't know if I got it exactly. That's the problem with intuitive argumentation. What I say next may be talking right past you, not connecting.

Quote:
Take that and then realize I'm not trying to falsify or claim anything about this universe. To try would be to attempt to personify God(impossible to do)

What I am doing is just thinking, maybe, what if, Science is all part of a ... Cosmic Push? A cycle of life? Hindu's and Buddhists believe in a cycle of life. Argue that for a minute if you wish.

If my interpretation of your metaphor is on target, then I think what you are saying is essentially, "Is there a direction to the universe?" If that's where you're going, then my answer is this:

It is commonly taught that evolution does not have a direction. Things just evolve and the ones that survive contribute to the next generation.

But, that is WITHIN a domain of evolution. Consider that there may be many domains of evolution. Two examples, genetic biological evolution and memetic cultural evolution. Biological evolution *supports* cultural evolution. In a sense, in fact actually, biological evolution *discovered* cultural evolution.

So, what is this process of 'discovery'? If we solve that, we'll go a long way toward unifying science. Call it the Theory of Discovery, intentionally analogous to the Theory of Evolution. Actually, the Theory of Discovery is more like the Hypothesis of Discovery, since it is just my speculation, unsupported by controlled observation.

The theory/hypothesis is this: The domains or levels of evolution are IN FACT connected by another process of discovery, which occurs naturally just as evolution does. Stellar evolution drives elemental evolution, elemental evolution (fueled by radiation) drives chemical evolution, chemical drives genetic, genetic drives cellular, cellular drives multicellular, multicellular drives neural, neural drives memetic.

What the hypothesis does is give *direction* to evolution.

In other words, evolution, within its own domain, is directionless, but discovery provides an inherent direction IN the universe. That direction is toward greater stability, and toward greater intelligence.

 

But that's all I can say right now. Must go.

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In other words, evolution,

In other words, evolution, within its own domain, is directionless, but discovery provides an inherent direction IN the universe. That direction is toward greater stability, and toward greater intelligence.


What should be asked by any person who believes in God right now, is, Is God evolution, and is got directionless, is God it's own domain, its own discovery, it's own greater stability, and it's own great intelligence. If human beings are pouring their lives into "Enlightenment" Then why is "God" not doing just the same. Is he really all knowing. Or is it just another teacher/student. Wouldn't for that quest, a thirst of knowledge(some might call it the fountain of Christs blood, I don't) make claim to the fact, that maybe we are all God's? Why can't we be God's? Maybe we are God's who got in a little trouble in Heaven, and needed to go to such a place as Earth, and learn a life lesson or two. Why can't THAT be the answer we are all looking for.

If we keep asking questions, like I do, we all go crazy. But if you take that in any sense other then say what...Albert Einstein was trying to do, then we must all fail like Einstein did. Because we, as humans, can not and will not grasp such a concept as nature. Is that what you want to call my God? Nature? I'd be willing to accept that as a perfect adjective, noun, verb, adverb, or proposition. It's my nature as a being, to think about the world in exactly the same eyes and position as Einstein. My vision is the same. How does "god" fit into the picture, naturally, philosophicaly, and scientifically. Oh, and memically, thank you. Cool Doob

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Ripple wrote: If you are

Ripple wrote:
If you are sooooooo into this memian shit from what I guess I think I know about it, then you, you right now is still personifying Jesus Christ. I mean think. For one second. IF YOU as a human being doesn't even know if Christ exists; why would he want to help YOU in particular. Why would he want to help any "Christian" in particular. Because I tell you what is a major society ill today is the fact that you are still a Christian. You have the same mindset as a Christian in that you won't shake this pre-conceived notion of who Jesus Christ really might have been. If we are all scientificially bound here, then why not consider the possiblity.

You're losing me here. I don't follow what you mean by Jesus Christ here. Do you mean a literal person who lived 2000 years ago? Do you mean the collective unconscious thing I was talking about?

I am not a personification of Jesus Christ in the same way that I'm not a personification of my father, nor of Luke Skywalker. At best you could say that some of Jesus' character rubbed off on me, just as it rubs off on most North Americans. The people who are personifications of Jesus are the ones who have religious experiences of Jesus in their 'hearts' telling them to do stuff. People who pray to Jesus and get 'answers'.

The only 'Jesus' I think existed is the concept of Jesus written in the bible. Not a man, not a supernatural entity, just some ideas in a book. 

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Jesus Christ died for the sins of man, and resurrected.

Do you mean literally or figuratively?

Quote:
Why oh why, does by Buddhist faith hold that to be a very REASONABLE AND RATIONABLE THING in the EYE and NEURONS of very many people.

Most people think they are 'rational', when really it's a case of them simply being 'good at making up rationalizations'. Being rational is hard work and takes practice, not to mention a lot of self-examination.

Quote:
Then begin to tell me that neurons and electrons in particular are not very..very weird. And I should end that topic on a note that I WENT INSANE thinking about just that.

Literally insane?

Quote:
So if you want to exlore science, go for it. I don't mind sharing a thing, a thought or two, of just what might have been. I mean hell, it might have been Noah's Fucking Ark but you would never know till at least you died. So hey, what the fuck?

Back to arrow-truth again. I know with great certainty, but not 100% certainty, that there was no global flood survived by one family headed by a guy named Noah.

Just because we can't know things with 100% certainty is no reason to waste time considering crazy metaphorical stories as fact. 

Quote:
So take a combination of the fact that Jesus himself might full well have been a Buddha(talk to a Buddhist monk about that, I wouldn't have a fucking clue) and then ask them if they believe in resurrection and life after death. Think of those two words, analyze it, then explain THAT with science. Then go ahead and tell me a rational word or two saying that the whole system of faith (Buddha and Jesus are probably best friends right now) is completely debunked and has been debunked by the scientific method.

You lost me on this one. Bring it down to reality for a second so I can get a grasp on your metaphors. Remember, I only just started exploring intuition recently, so you'll have to go slow.

Quote:
Quote:
Maybe this 'god' experiences things like a dream, and we (as a group) are one of the characters in the dream, so when we say "Theists are irrational", that's 'god' actually dreaming a character in his dream saying "Theists are irrational". Maybe we need to tell the larger god-awareness, "Hey, you are dreaming! Wake up, dude! We have important problems to solve, while you are snoring and farting in bed."

Ahh and maybe then, "GOD" is so crazy and irrational yet so rational might let such things come true. Why not? It was your idea. He can flood the earth...right?

No. I guess you missed the part where I stated that this kind of 'god' is limited strictly to what humans can and can't know and what they can and can't do. Such a god could not have literally flooded the planet. 

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Ehh, thinking about

Ehh, thinking about electrons, valence levels, probability levels, string theory, Quantum Physics in general, yeah I would say I lost a little basis of the real world at one point in my life. Other then that, I would say I'm completely sane right now.

I guess all I have been trying to relate with anything is that all the supernatural events described in the Bible, if truly happened, could not be described by completely natural ways of life. I wish not to discuss the validity of such events, as noone could prove them as the resurrection(if true) of Jesus Christ happened a little less then 2000 years ago. For that, noone can prove if it really happened, or if it did not happened.

For that I only argue that to just flat out say it didn't happen, then who is really basing theirselves in a state of ignorance. Note, I stated ignorant, not rational.

As for the flood, geographic studies of the layers of soil can easily prove or disprove such an event, and to this point, no evidence has pointed to such and event.

A little off topic, but only to give evidence to such an argument, lets take into consideration the story of Sodom and Gemorrah. Though they are merely stories, in which the only records of such events are recorded in the old testament(in which case most anything written in such a book must be rationally weighed against what is really possible in the real world) one must also consider that there has been much archaeological digging upon a couple sites on the south end of the dead sea, of two sister cities, which has evidence of the fact that at the same exact time, the two cities were leveled by great fires. The bible states that Sodom and Gemorrah were torched in fire and brimstone(brimstone being burning sulfur). It should also be noted that in that area, there is a large quantitiy of sulfur. Does this mean that the stories of Sodom and Gemorrah has been scientifically proven to be actual historical events? Absolutely not. But is there enough evidence to say that, maybe such events did occur? Absolutely. Does that mean those 2 cities were burned to the ground by God itself? Absolutely not. But does that mean that God(if existing) didn't do it? We would never know.

For that, I do not argue whether anything has ever been put forth by the hands(thoughts? powers) of such an entity, but rather I argue, how can anyone else prove that such an entity did NOT create everything we know as existense in this cosmic realm?

1 in 5 Americans believe we live in a Geocentric solar system. Who do you blame for that? God? I blame god.