This is my response to Danno21F and some of the rational response squad members arguments on Youtube.

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This is my response to Danno21F and some of the rational response squad members arguments on Youtube.

I’ll open with telling you all that I am an "atheist". I defiantly do not go about my life believing in a personal God such as Allah or the Christian God. I don’t believe in the Holy Spirit or that Jesus was the son of God. I think religion is playing a major role in the destruction of this world and I wish it were non-existent.

However, after saying all of that I find it very embarrassing that fellow “atheists” can use such harsh language, and attack people like many of the above posters have. To be fair, though Danno21F and me probably disagree on some things, any reasonable thinking person would clearly see that Danno21f won this little argument.

I am all for the criticizing of Christianity, by all means point out the flaws, contradictions, and dangers of it, but when you attack a Christian, or any religious person it won’t do any good. I visited the rational response website and like many of the comments posted by members above found it very offensive. The language and trashing of beliefs are extremely immature. I think Danno21F brings up an excellent point when he compares you guys (rational response squad) as the opposite of fundamental Christians.

I love the idea you fellow atheists have, but I strongly disagree with the way its being carried out. I’ve watched many of Mr. Harris’ lectures and I like how he opens with saying he will probably offend people in the audience, but that is not his purpose. What Harris and Dawkins are doing is bringing awareness to this problem. Now it may just be my opinion, but after viewing your comments and site his seems that your purpose is to simply offend people.

You guys can take this comment for what it is worth, a statement from some random person, but I suggest you clean up your act over at the rational response squad website, because I truly believe you guys have a positive idea in the works.

---Sorry for any of the spelling or grammar mistakes.

p.s. I couldn't really figure out how to post this on youtube. There is obviously to many words, plus when I tried to comment it just didn't work. Also I think I'll get more responses from the people I want to hear from by posting it in this forum. Also the link to this argument is...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CxaaIP-D0XI, its this chanmans famous video.


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Danno21F's main argument,

Danno21F's main argument, from his other posts, centers around the idea that it takes faith to be an atheist so believing and not believing are equal. The problem with this is that I have no reason to believe something without any evidence.

If you want to talk about his main comments I will.

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And I deny the existence of any warmth, humanity or humility in your video.

This is flame and adds nothing to the convo. It seems pretty clear from this he doesn't like the video from some reason, but that is about it.

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Religious fundamentalists and Darwinian fundamentalists are THE SAME. You can't argue with them because they're both exactly sure that they're RIGHT. That's why they're so smug and condescending, and enjoy toying with people. They're both at either end of the Bell curve, alone in their ignorance and giddy with self-congratulatory conceit.

Right off he blurs the lines of scientist and atheist, that is a bad thing to do by the way.

He then says people can't argue with "Darwinian Fundamentalists." By that I will assume he means atheists with balls. Now there may be a few atheists who you can not argue with, but those behind the Blasphemy Challenge want discussion. To say a person can't argue with people who want to talk is idiotic.

If anyone is going to say they are right on a topic they are going to sound or be arrogant every so often. This would go for the people who want to say there is no right answer of every answer is right also. Basically anyone who makes a claim, but that doesn’t those people “enjoy toying with people.”

I am kind of surprised he knows what a bell curve is when he doesn’t know there are theist who say evolution is a good theory if not scientific fact, but I guess if he heard the word Darwinian in school he would pick up a few more. What he is saying is that anyone making a claim is ignorant. That is an odd statement to make as if you want to make a claim then you have to put yourself in that ignorant part of the bell curve as well.

Now I’ll look at what you are saying.

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The language and trashing of beliefs are extremely immature.

By language I guess you mean words like fuck, ass, whore, cunt, or bitch, however most of the people here hate fucking censorship so we don’t really stop people from using a word because some people can’t handle it. Now when you say trashing beliefs is wrong I find it odd because you begin the paragraph by saying criticizing religion is good.

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I suggest you clean up your act over at the rational response squad website

What you are suggesting is that we go about being offensive in a less offensive manner. This is like asking us to say “theism is a mind disorder” in a nice way. For some reason I don’t think RRS is here to always be the nice guy holding someone’s hand. Note I’m probably one of the harsher people floating around here, but if something sounds like bullshit I am going to call it bullshit, use the word bullshit, and not feel sorry for it.

A lot of people won’t get that kind of response from me right from the start, but if Christianity is true Pascal’s Wager would make baby Jesus cry.

I was the kind of atheist that was a relativist about knowledge and wanted to be tolerant of everything on earth, then I thought about it. One that sounds like I smoked too much pot or something. Two if a person tolerates everything they are walked all over and basically end up not being able to say someone is wrong or simply no. Third no one can argue for relativism, as soon as you start you have to give up because the other guy is right or also wrong however you want to put it. Not to mention any idea of knowledge becomes completely pointless. The ideas of why no one can argue for relativism applies to tolerance as the person would be intolerant of someone not tolerating everything.


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I don't think you can say

I don't think you can say that all atheists here are being rude or immature. For my part, I give theists every respect until they display (as they usually do) no real interest in discussing the issues at hand. I'd say most people on this site take the same approach, though some are more aggressive than others.

Remember, much of the so-called "offensive" language out there is only considered so because of christian ethics about sex and taking god's name in vain. It's hardly surprising that many atheists would choose not to respect these ethics.

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Feel free to pick apart

Feel free to pick apart Danno21F’s argument that wasn’t really my point in writing this comment. I’m glad you managed to get in a bit of my concern, thanks for the response. I guess I wasn’t clear about the whole use of inappropriate language. I have no problem with that sort of language, until it is directed at someone/something. This shows hatred and I don’t see how swearing at a Christian, or putting down their beliefs by using this type of language is going to motivate them to search out other views. I see a comment on this site like “Fuck Religion” or “Fuck the Holy Spirit” and I wonder what exactly they expect to get from that? Fellow atheists will of course pat them on the back, and say “well done” but was that the purpose of this site? Maybe I can help explain the whole thrashing/criticizing as well. I also said “point out the flaws and contradictions.” By trashing I meant simply saying things like “Christianity is so fucking stupid, the Bible is completely wrong.” When we criticize something we should support it with findings and evidence. Now I’m not saying the people here don’t do that, I’m just saying maybe we drop the rudeness from it. Actually I’m suggesting that instead of being offensive we take a critical approach to this. Explain why the Bible is wrong, explain why religion is so dangerous, and explain things like evolution. A believer will be much more willing to sit down and learn with someone who isn’t jumping down his or her throats, constantly telling them how stupid their entire belief system is. All I want is awareness. And the message will spread faster and receive much more respect if it’s a bit (or a lot) more mature.

You go on to talk about tolerance. I was just wondering if that’s the message you got from my first comment.

Thanks for the discussion.

---Again sorry for any grammar mistakes


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Tilberian wrote:I don't

Tilberian wrote:
I don't think you can say that all atheists here are being rude or immature. For my part, I give theists every respect until they display (as they usually do) no real interest in discussing the issues at hand. I'd say most people on this site take the same approach, though some are more aggressive than others.

Remember, much of the so-called "offensive" language out there is only considered so because of christian ethics about sex and taking god's name in vain. It's hardly surprising that many atheists would choose not to respect these ethics.

I'm not saying all atheists here are being rude or immature, and I'm very sorry if thats what it sounded like. I understand your point about offensive language coming from christian ethics. However I've only been here a short period and i've already read things like "pimp slap" and "hoe" though these things may have evolved from Christian ethics I do think the authors of them should still respect the people reading them, even if they don't respect where the word came from.


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22jesus22 wrote: I'm not

22jesus22 wrote:

I'm not saying all atheists here are being rude or immature, and I'm very sorry if thats what it sounded like. I understand your point about offensive language coming from christian ethics. However I've only been here a short period and i've already read things like "pimp slap" and "hoe" though these things may have evolved from Christian ethics I do think the authors of them should still respect the people reading them, even if they don't respect where the word came from.

*sigh* I suppose. I'm impatient with people who get their panties in a twist over mere words. If you're upset with the jocular treatment of abuse of women that is implicit in "pimp slap" you should take the author to task directly for publishing that idea. "Hoe" is of course slang for "whore" which is only a bad word because of christian prudery about the sex trade.

It's all a small price to pay for having a site where atheists can speak their minds freely.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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22jesus22 wrote: Feel free

22jesus22 wrote:
Feel free to pick apart Danno21F’s argument that wasn’t really my point in writing this comment. I’m glad you managed to get in a bit of my concern, thanks for the response. I guess I wasn’t clear about the whole use of inappropriate language. I have no problem with that sort of language, until it is directed at someone/something. This shows hatred and I don’t see how swearing at a Christian, or putting down their beliefs by using this type of language is going to motivate them to search out other views.

Well if it is used it probably isn't used to make much of a point to an argument. Unless it is about fucking censorship then I can't help, but use those words. There is also a difference between calling someone fucking retarded and calling an idea fucking retarded.

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I see a comment on this site like “Fuck Religion” or “Fuck the Holy Spirit” and I wonder what exactly they expect to get from that?

I think most of that is either between atheists or for the Blasphemy Challenge. The whole point of that is to be blasphemes and cause shock.

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Fellow atheists will of course pat them on the back, and say “well done” but was that the purpose of this site?

I think a part of this site has become the community. I speak frankly in front of my atheist friends on religion, I don't see why a community that has developed around this site would be any different.

Quote:
Maybe I can help explain the whole thrashing/criticizing as well. I also said “point out the flaws and contradictions.” By trashing I meant simply saying things like “Christianity is so fucking stupid, the Bible is completely wrong.” When we criticize something we should support it with findings and evidence. Now I’m not saying the people here don’t do that, I’m just saying maybe we drop the rudeness from it.

I will do both sometimes. If I plan on making an argument I tend to explain why I think that quoted statement is very true.

Quote:
Actually I’m suggesting that instead of being offensive we take a critical approach to this. Explain why the Bible is wrong, explain why religion is so dangerous, and explain things like evolution. A believer will be much more willing to sit down and learn with someone who isn’t jumping down his or her throats, constantly telling them how stupid their entire belief system is. All I want is awareness.

If I go into my "Argument Mode" I try to censor myself of any rudeness and I think most people here do that. All the people on the radio show seem to try to do that. If you look at the sections of the forum about arguments or specific topics I think that idea shows itself rather quickly.

Quote:
And the message will spread faster and receive much more respect if it’s a bit (or a lot) more mature.

As for spread of a message I think the more shocking the more people will talk about it and want to respond. I mean think about it the thing that got RRS on the news was not how nice they are, but how they had this challenge for blasphemy. There was maturity and reason behind that, but we can't be mature all the time. I think Chin Sapient, if you know what I'm talking about, shows that really well.

Quote:
You go on to talk about tolerance. I was just wondering if that’s the message you got from my first comment.

I have heard people say they don't like religion, but we have no right to say it before. To me it sounds like you want to say we should say it in a different way. The subject matter does deal with tolerance as if you didn't have the part about wanting religion gone I would expect it. Really it was part me saying why I feel I can make bold statements.

To sum up most of the relevant points:
This site has a community and they will speak very harshly of religion to one another like they are talking about sports or weather. Anyway you say something offensive it will still be offensive. The shock is sometimes used as a tool, but if you watch someone get into a real argument they will act differently. (I know personally I completely change the way I talk and act)


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I think you guys are failing

I think you guys are failing to see my point. The Idea that this site uses such offensive language can make an already "bad" idea (atheism) even worse. You can preach all you want to the choir, but I suggest you reach out to the masses. I myself completely understand where you're coming from, and love the passion shown in the posts here. However, I think the purpose of this site is to bring awareness, am I correct? It seems you guys do in fact get a lot of response, which I have to say good job! I think you guys now have to look at the responsibility you have. Instead of simply offending people, educate them. Instead of just getting into dead-end arguments, spend the time supporting this wonderful idea you all have. I love the effort and passion you all put into this, but I think it can be taken much further, and I know you guys have the ability do it.


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22jesus22 wrote:I think you

22jesus22 wrote:
I think you guys are failing to see my point. The Idea that this site uses such offensive language can make an already "bad" idea (atheism) even worse.

So do you think we should stifle discussion by censoring everyone? Forcing people to only use particular words because some people who believe in invisible sky daddies take offense to particular words?

You know we have a forum specifically for people who melt upon hearing a curse word, it's called Kill em with Kindness, here are the rules and link.

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You can preach all you want to the choir, but I suggest you reach out to the masses.

The masses.

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However, I think the purpose of this site is to bring awareness, am I correct?

In a sense yes. I would have phrased it differently. I would have said, "the purpose of this site is to unite people who want to help end irrational beliefs on Earth."

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Instead of simply offending people, educate them.

You're generalizing a lot in this thread. If you honestly think we do no education and "simply offend" then you should explore this site further. I can't get through two pages of this site without finding some form of non hostile education. As for someone saying "bitch slap" and "ho," well he has the right to say it, and you have the right to think less of him because of it. He is within the board guidelines and I only know of one person who speaks like that here, so on a site of 3,000+ members you probably shouldn't look at the actions of one as a representation of all.

Quote:
I love the effort and passion you all put into this, but I think it can be taken much further, and I know you guys have the ability do it.

Thanks!

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Geez I just realized that

Geez I just realized that many of the comments you are referring to are from youtubers not even people of this site.

Any forum that limits character limits like youtube does is likely to degenerate into a one liner brigade. They also don't alert you to replies of your comments.

Comments that should be like this:

"Why do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? What sort of proof do you have for the existence of Jesus?"

turn out like this:

"I deny the fucking Holy spirit. Some people are idiots!"

Youtube comments section, "How good people turn bad." (shit, reminds me of religion)

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Let's also keep in mind that

Let's also keep in mind that if we want, as the theists do, to "get 'em young", we will probably do better with an edgier atmosphere here.

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22jesus22 wrote: I guess I

22jesus22 wrote:
I guess I wasn’t clear about the whole use of inappropriate language. I have no problem with that sort of language, until it is directed at someone/something. This shows hatred and I don’t see how swearing at a Christian, or putting down their beliefs by using this type of language is going to motivate them to search out other views. I see a comment on this site like “Fuck Religion” or “Fuck the Holy Spirit” and I wonder what exactly they expect to get from that? Fellow atheists will of course pat them on the back, and say “well done” but was that the purpose of this site?

You don't mind swearing as long as it isn't directed at someone/something? Man, that eliminates almost all of my swearing. "Fuck religion" and "Fuck the Holy Spirit" mean exactly that. Fuck them. I certainly don't give a shit about them. I don't think anyone's looking for back pats, they're just dismissing it all in a fairly unequivocal manner. Maybe it's just because my daily vocabulary has a healthy dose of swear words, but I don't really take offense to them. The pimp slap thing is fairly offensive to me, but I don't say anything because who fucking cares? I know noone here means it in the way that relates to violence against women.

Quote:
Actually I’m suggesting that instead of being offensive we take a critical approach to this. Explain why the Bible is wrong, explain why religion is so dangerous, and explain things like evolution. A believer will be much more willing to sit down and learn with someone who isn’t jumping down his or her throats, constantly telling them how stupid their entire belief system is. All I want is awareness. And the message will spread faster and receive much more respect if it’s a bit (or a lot) more mature.

We do that. There are numerous threads on here that explain why the Bible is wrong, explain why religion is so dangerous, and explain things like evolution.
Sometimes bad language will creep in, whether it's from frustration, anger or "fucking" being a very effective adjective. Laughing out loud

This is a forum made by atheists as a way of uniting us, it's not a fucking love-in for theists who are scawed of bad words. Besides, as Sapient pointed out, there is a place on here for friendly debate sans foul language.


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[i]"So do you think we

[i]"So do you think we should stifle discussion by censoring everyone? Forcing people to only use particular words because some people who believe in invisible sky daddies take offense to particular words?

---Again I don't think my point is being understood, and that may be my fault. Do you think a Christian is more likely to listen to "Hey, I disagree with what you believe in, I fact think you're wrong and I'm going to show you why." or "Fuck Religion, Fuck the Holy Ghost." I'm not at all saying censor these people, I'm just maybe saying we should use reasonable attempts at starting a discourse between believers and non-believers.

---I know you guys do a great job here; I just think more can be done. And with the effort you have already put in, changing a few words shouldn't be that hard. I don’t want you guys to take this the wrong way at all. I love what you guys are doing, and I’m glad I stumbled upon this site.

"You're generalizing a lot in this thread. If you honestly think we do no education and "simply offend" then you should explore this site further. I can't get through two pages of this site without finding some form of non hostile education. As for someone saying "bitch slap" and "ho," well he has the right to say it, and you have the right to think less of him because of it. He is within the board guidelines and I only know of one person who speaks like that here, so on a site of 3,000+ members you probably shouldn't look at the actions of one as a representation of all."

----I'm sorry I know I may be somewhat generalizing, and I know there is a lot of ways to educate oneself. But when discussing something such as your blasphemy challenge where I’ve heard plenty of people use offensive language when talking about the Christian beliefs, I see no point to this. Yes you guys have gotten plenty of response but from what I’ve seen its atheists uniting and religious people uniting. This just builds a larger wall between the two opposing parties. Also was the one person you were talking about yourself, or was it MattShizzle? In this thread both of you use unnecessary offensive language. (http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/the_rational_response_squad_radio_show/freethinking_anonymous/3479)

---You're Very Welcome. Keep up the good work guys! I love the discussion.


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Honestly I have made it a

Honestly I have made it a rule of thumb to refer to fucking censorship as only that, but that is just me asserting the idea I can say whatever I want. I do it at even hints of it, the idea doesn't always reflect what you are saying.

The basic idea is "honey attracts more flies then vinegar" right?

I think a part of this is to herd all these freethinking cats and making the point that criticism of religion can be done. Yes you already said you are for that, but no matter how you word the message it isn’t something that goes down easy. I can cut out some cussing in a real argument, but that’s all the sugar coating a person is going to get from me.

I come at this subject from a philosophic view point with science for facts. Both of those things deal with the pursuit of knowledge. Personally I don’t think knowledge is all about making friends. A professor at my college said it well, “In life you can have two things. Knowledge or friends, but not both.” Arguably you could have a few friends and still go for knowledge, but they will probably be the same kind of person as you. That isn’t necessarily a reflection of the squads view point, but that is how I personally approach ideas of knowledge.

It isn’t like I take the idea lightly either. I have seen hints of the implications in my life, but it is just the tip of the ice berg and I’m well aware of it.

If that doesn’t tell you what I’m saying here is one last way I can drive the point home.

I once heard Richard Dawkins referred to as evolution’s pitbull. While evolution is not an atheist only idea in respect to the way Dawkins goes about his atheism I don’t care if I make him look like a cuddly bunny rabbit. Please note I still think he is a pretty nice guy, but the pitbull thing is how others seem to view him.

I thought I would add if you think there is another nicer ways to convince people of your atheist ideas go for it. Maybe start your own group, but I have seen members of the squad be very nice to people. This forum even has a "Killing Them With Kindness" section.


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22jesus22 wrote:I’ll open

22jesus22 wrote:
I’ll open with telling you all that I am an "atheist". I defiantly do not go about my life believing in a personal God such as Allah or the Christian God. I don’t believe in the Holy Spirit or that Jesus was the son of God. I think religion is playing a major role in the destruction of this world and I wish it were non-existent.

However, after saying all of that I find it very embarrassing that fellow “atheists” can use such harsh language, and attack people like many of the above posters have. To be fair, though Danno21F and me probably disagree on some things, any reasonable thinking person would clearly see that Danno21f won this little argument.

I am all for the criticizing of Christianity, by all means point out the flaws, contradictions, and dangers of it, but when you attack a Christian, or any religious person it won’t do any good. I visited the rational response website and like many of the comments posted by members above found it very offensive. The language and trashing of beliefs are extremely immature. I think Danno21F brings up an excellent point when he compares you guys (rational response squad) as the opposite of fundamental Christians.

I love the idea you fellow atheists have, but I strongly disagree with the way its being carried out. I’ve watched many of Mr. Harris’ lectures and I like how he opens with saying he will probably offend people in the audience, but that is not his purpose. What Harris and Dawkins are doing is bringing awareness to this problem. Now it may just be my opinion, but after viewing your comments and site his seems that your purpose is to simply offend people.

You guys can take this comment for what it is worth, a statement from some random person, but I suggest you clean up your act over at the rational response squad website, because I truly believe you guys have a positive idea in the works.

---Sorry for any of the spelling or grammar mistakes.

p.s. I couldn't really figure out how to post this on youtube. There is obviously to many words, plus when I tried to comment it just didn't work. Also I think I'll get more responses from the people I want to hear from by posting it in this forum. Also the link to this argument is...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CxaaIP-D0XI, its this chanmans famous video.

Take your diaper off. We live in a free country where no one is forced to like their nieghbor or agree with them. If we value our right to say "Jesus is fiction" which some Christians would see as hate speech, then we cant ourselves demand that same polliticall correctness from them or even amongst our own.

One thing I hate more than bigotry is the idea that government should be used as thought police. You can be as "embarrassed" as you want and I wont seek to have my government shut you up for criticising some atheists.

I will however use my own voice to combat any tide that seeks to use goverment to say, "Government, they hurt my feelings, make them stop."

I am secure in myself that I dont need government to be my nipple or protect me from any bigoted crap a Christian might say about me. Laws are aready in place that prevent me from doing physical harm to them or from them doing physical harm to me.

If you want to fight bigotry, that is a good thing. We dont need more hate in the world. But it should not come at the cost of goverment becoming thought police or morality police. I cant force people to like me and neither can you.

My advice to you is to be yourself and be an individual. If you dont like using strong language, then dont. But do not presume that goverment should have the right to tell me "BRIAN you cannot say that or you'll be arrested".

I do admire the intent of wanting peace, but I warn against using goverment to excicute laws that prevent people from saying "offensive" things.

We are atheists. We are lower than Muslims and gays in America. I refuse to give the Christian majority through our government that kind of power of "That hurts my feelings, make those atheists stop."

Fuck them. I can be friends with people who I dissagree with. But polliticall correctness through goverment force will backfire. You forget "Who gets to decide" what is or is not "offensive".

Just because we have a document giving us "free speech" doesnt mean the people who interpret it will protect it and doesnt mean that the people who interpret it have atheist's freedom in mind.

I admire "cant we all just get allong". What I warn against is replacing the mind of the individual with a government brain telling you who you can or cannot like.

Criticise atheists for being "rude" all you want. But do not use goverment to be their brain. I dont like it when fudies do it and I dont like it when atheists insist on government being the author of individual thoughts.

Either way, Christian or atheist. I want us to get along, but not at the cost of telling my neighbor that they have to be polite to me or else they will be arrested.

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Excuse my offensive language

Excuse my offensive language but what the fuck? I'm sorry Brian37 was that comment an actual response to my statements?

It’s as if you guys think I'm attacking you, and you have to defend yourselves against me. I am one of you. My simple point, that obviously is not getting through is that in no way is using offensive language going to attract people to atheism. I understand that either way it’s going to be hard to get the message across, but I think there is a much easier and more effective way to express that message. Maybe the examples of The God Delusion, The End of Faith, and Letter to a Christian Nation will help make my point. We all agree that those are 3 awesome books right? I don't think any of you would disagree when I say that these books take a much more effective and appropriate approach to solving this problem, then simply saying, "Fuck the Holy Ghost"

And by no means am I calling for censorship. I believe I’ve already posted that, but I guess Brian37 didn’t read my other comments. Please if you think using offensive language is going to help your cause, continue doing so. I however believe Harris and Dawkins have done a much better job of pointing out the flaws, contradictions, and dangers with religion.

---Thanks for the continued discussion


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I would also like to mention

I would also like to mention Voiderest point about Knowledge and Friends. I completely agree with the statement your prof made. I myself have simply lost interest in some of the people that I once considered good friends. And I can see myself only dealing with people that have the same interests as me. It's funny, even if I know the people won't want to talk about religion, the first thing that comes out of my mouth is the base for a religious argument. I purposely create the discussion I want.


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22jesus22 wrote:---Again I

22jesus22 wrote:
---Again I don't think my point is being understood, and that may be my fault. Do you think a Christian is more likely to listen to "Hey, I disagree with what you believe in, I fact think you're wrong and I'm going to show you why." or "Fuck Religion, Fuck the Holy Ghost."

After they've listened, the act of listening is over, so in fact I think in both cases they heard the message. You should know we took great care to ask people to blaspheme the holy spirit in the least offensive way possible. We could've asked everyone to say "Fucking Holy Spirit sucks cock" but we purposefully made this campaign as pleasant as possible while still achieving the act of blasphemy. We also told people to make their videos their own.

Quote:
I'm not at all saying censor these people, I'm just maybe saying we should use reasonable attempts at starting a discourse between believers and non-believers.

Now I think it's you who's not seeing our point, which is that we do in fact do that and we do it often. To deny that we're not making "reasonable attempts" at starting a discourse is to miss most of the activity here. See many of our discussions with theists on our show (don't see youtube comments): http://www.rationalresponders.com/rrs_free_shows

Quote:
---I know you guys do a great job here; I just think more can be done.

And I don't think one of those things is refraining from what is commonly considered offensive. Keep in mind you are free to create your own site if you think you have a vision for the world that will be better received.

Quote:
And with the effort you have already put in, changing a few words shouldn't be that hard.

Asking people to blasphemy the Holy Spirit and then writing them to tell them to take out some of their blasphemy is not something I am willing to do. My integrity is worth more to me than the thoughts of a brainwashed person incapable of seeing that words are nothing without connotation. The connotation of these videos is bad enough, no matter what words are used. Think about it...

I = not offensive
deny = not offensive
the = not offensive
holy = not offensive
spirit = not offensive

I deny the holy spirit = offensive

Quote:
I don’t want you guys to take this the wrong way at all. I love what you guys are doing, and I’m glad I stumbled upon this site.

I'm glad, and we're receptive to constructive criticism which you are offering, and I appreciate that. I just don't exactly agree.

Quote:
Yes you guys have gotten plenty of response but from what I’ve seen its atheists uniting and religious people uniting.

There are also religious people abandoning religion.

Quote:
This just builds a larger wall between the two opposing parties.

I'm not in opposition to people who are religious. In fact it's precisely because I'm not in opposition to them that I will do whatever it takes to help them restore their mental freedom.

Quote:
Also was the one person you were talking about yourself, or was it MattShizzle? In this thread both of you use unnecessary offensive language.

LOL! You don't know Matt well enough, most people here do. That's his retarded thing, I have no idea why he does it, I think he thinks it's funny. He's had this act for quite some time, see his youtube videos. I was making a witty comment specifically directed at him as it pertains to him. Had it been anybody else I wouldn't say such a thing. A good example of how a similar comment might pertain to you (so you can see the wit) would be if you came on this board next week and started talking about a 3 hour conversation with a Christian that you had. If I said "You didn't curse at her at all, did you?" I would hope you would find some humor in that, I have a very dry sense of humor.

I curse freely and see no problem with that. Additionally you should know that the comments from myself in that thread other than my "pimp slap" comment to Matt were toned down severely. I saw many a moron in those response videos and purposefully was as nice as I could be with any commentary I gave, which is why you don't see much commenting on my side.

And one last additional FYI, I'm not sure if you realize but we're rather loose on who can use a Rational Response Squad badge behind their head. You can use one as well as long as you agree with this list: http://www.rationalresponders.com/hamurookis_irrational_precepts

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I think you responded well

I think you responded well to my comments and see no need for this "argument" to go any further. We obviously don't agree on everything, but I believe we agree on the much larger, and more important picture. I respect and appreciate everything you had to say. I do want you guys to know how wonderful I think this site is, and how much good you really are doing. Also if there is anything I can do to help, I would love too.


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22jesus22 wrote:It’s as if

22jesus22 wrote:
It’s as if you guys think I'm attacking you, and you have to defend yourselves against me. I am one of you.

That was another generalization again. Try directing your thoughts at specific posters.

1. I don't think you're attacking me, nor do I think void did, or glamour kat did, and I know Brian well enough to gather he probably feels the same.

2. Just being an atheist doesn't make you "one of" us so much that we shouldn't vocalize disagreements. Christians are "one of us" as well, we are all human.

Quote:
My simple point, that obviously is not getting through is that in no way is using offensive language going to attract people to atheism.

We got your point, it seems most of us disagree. Furthermore we're not here to attract people to atheism, we couldn't give two shits about atheism, we care about people not being theist. Now if people are too stupid to see that theists curse just as much as atheists (if not more), then they got bigger problems then merely believing in invisible unproven dieties.

Quote:
I don't think any of you would disagree when I say that these books take a much more effective and appropriate approach to solving this problem, then simply saying, "Fuck the Holy Ghost"

In none of the videos put out by the core of the Rational Response Squad did anyone say "Fuck the holy spirit" however doing so is an act of blasphemy and would be completely the point of this whole project. Your argument should be with the people who are saying this in their videos.

Quote:
Please if you think using offensive language is going to help your cause, continue doing so.

Offensive language is provocative and emphasizes points. It's just as likely to drive a stern point home and help a cause as much as it is to turn someone away from it. In fact I can think of many examples when it has done both. They may leave the video of the person cursing feeling disgusted, however may ponder the point later on their own as a point of obvious importance to that individual due to the harsh language.

Quote:
I however believe Harris and Dawkins have done a much better job of pointing out the flaws, contradictions, and dangers with religion.

Hey, we agree!

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22jesus22 wrote:I think you

22jesus22 wrote:
I think you responded well to my comments and see no need for this "argument" to go any further.

I had responded to the other post before I saw this.

Quote:
We obviously don't agree on everything, but I believe we agree on the much larger, and more important picture.

"The only thing one atheist must have in common with another is a lack of belief in a diety." - Jake

Quote:
I respect and appreciate everything you had to say. I do want you guys to know how wonderful I think this site is, and how much good you really are doing.

Thanks!

Quote:
Also if there is anything I can do to help, I would love too.

Could you make a video saying "fuck the holy spirit" ?





(see that was the dry sense of humor)

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I actually gave a little

I actually gave a little lawl there, so I guess your sense of humour works for me. Actually I would make a video rejecting the holy ghost, however I have no video camera, or webcam to help me do this. As you could imagine it becomes a bit difficult to make a video when you lack the equipment.


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22jesus22 wrote:I actually

22jesus22 wrote:
I actually gave a little lawl there, so I guess your sense of humour works for me. Actually I would make a video rejecting the holy ghost, however I have no video camera, or webcam to help me do this. As you could imagine it becomes a bit difficult to make a video when you lack the equipment.

To be honest just hanging around the forum and weighing in on things with your own slant is helpful. Just try not to get hung up on foul language. (even when theists use it)

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22jesus22 wrote:Excuse my

22jesus22 wrote:
Excuse my offensive language but what the fuck? I'm sorry Brian37 was that comment an actual response to my statements?

It’s as if you guys think I'm attacking you, and you have to defend yourselves against me. I am one of you. My simple point, that obviously is not getting through is that in no way is using offensive language going to attract people to atheism. I understand that either way it’s going to be hard to get the message across, but I think there is a much easier and more effective way to express that message. Maybe the examples of The God Delusion, The End of Faith, and Letter to a Christian Nation will help make my point. We all agree that those are 3 awesome books right? I don't think any of you would disagree when I say that these books take a much more effective and appropriate approach to solving this problem, then simply saying, "Fuck the Holy Ghost"

And by no means am I calling for censorship. I believe I’ve already posted that, but I guess Brian37 didn’t read my other comments. Please if you think using offensive language is going to help your cause, continue doing so. I however believe Harris and Dawkins have done a much better job of pointing out the flaws, contradictions, and dangers with religion.

---Thanks for the continued discussion

"I am one of you" only in label, but I am not a clone of you. I understand that you understand what it is like to be an atheist. I didnt ever in my post suggest you not criticise.

I am merely adding on that in the process of offering criticism of anyone, be they religious or atheist, that we do not resort to using goverment to replace our own brains.

I am not accusing you of anything. I just wanted to add that there is a way to make progress and a way not to. It is a bad idea for the theist or atheist to use government to play thought police. It is not an attack on you or anyone. Merely a warning to not use government to play thought police.

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the foul language doesn't

the foul language doesn't bug me, I just don't think its necessary, but lets not get involved with that again.

ok i'll do my best to post around.

Could you also explain the radio show to me, or link me to an explanation of it. I'm very interested in radio.


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Like I said above you can

Like I said above you can hear a bunch of free shows here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/rrs_free_shows

New shows air every Friday night at 9pm est and you can tune in from the left hand side of the screen (see icons of audio players). We hang out in the two chatrooms listed there as well, about 50 people generally show up. The shows are prerecorded and you can hang out when we record them. Look for recording date information near the time of broadcast which is always a Saturday from noon-2 am est. We record about 4-6 shows per session.

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22jesus22 wrote:the foul

22jesus22 wrote:
the foul language doesn't bug me, I just don't think its necessary, but lets not get involved with that again.

ok i'll do my best to post around.

Could you also explain the radio show to me, or link me to an explanation of it. I'm very interested in radio.

Well I do think it is nessary sometimes. I certainly wouldnt use it in the context of every given situation. But I am going to use it when I think an individual is being a fuckhead. It does not mean I hate an entire group of people just because of the actions of one fuckhead.

People like Fartwell represent the worst in humanity that seeks to divide based on "My god intitled me to tell you what to do". I do not think that one fuckhead represents all Christians nor does he even represent all his followers.

I used to work with many of his students from his college. EVEN THEY dissagreed with him and say he sticks his nose where it doesnt belong too much.

I AM capable of being friends with people I dissagree with. But to cut out cussing 100% of the time is just as inapropreate a demand as it would be if I insisted that we cuss all the time.

I think it is within human nature be it a theist or atheist to vent about the things we dont like. I have no right as an autonomous individual, if I value my own right to vent ,to deny others that same right simply because they "offend me".

Again, if you want to set your own example go do so. I would never suggest anyone stop you from making your own attempt and neither would anyone here.

If the cussing bothers you then you can obstain from using it or being around it. It is that simple. What none of us have the right to do is go to another board and dictate what the owners do.

I am an advocate of intelectual property rights and property rights in general. You DO have the right to do what you want. But this site can do what it wants as well.

You can make your case here if you want. But this site and it's members have no obligation to me or you to provide anything. We come here as guests because we want to. Neither you or I are forced to be here.

So you've made your case and my suggestion is simple. If you dont like cussing, then dont. It is that simple to me.

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Brian as I said I don't

Brian as I said I don't think we should get involved with this again but I guess you would like too. You again are failing to see my point. I'm not trying to deny anyones right to swear. Also I have no problem with fuck, whore, or pimp. I'm simply saying that I don't think it is necessary to get ones message across. I again don't have a problem with someone using this language to voice their message. The language does not offend me. But I understand that it offends others. If I were attempting to get my message across to a certain audience i'm going to of course play to the crowd, and if "fuck the holy ghost" doesn't work for them I'm not going to use it. See I think this is where people are getting mixed up with what i'm trying to say. I don't care if you swear or not, I'm just expressing my opinion, when I say it be more effective not to swear when discussing a person's beliefs with them. Swearing offends people, its that simple, you have to understand when, and when not to use swearing thats all I wanted to say.


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22jesus22 wrote:Brian as I

22jesus22 wrote:
Brian as I said I don't think we should get involved with this again but I guess you would like too. You again are failing to see my point. I'm not trying to deny anyones right to swear. Also I have no problem with fuck, whore, or pimp. I'm simply saying that I don't think it is necessary to get ones message across. I again don't have a problem with someone using this language to voice their message. The language does not offend me. But I understand that it offends others. If I were attempting to get my message across to a certain audience i'm going to of course play to the crowd, and if "fuck the holy ghost" doesn't work for them I'm not going to use it. See I think this is where people are getting mixed up with what i'm trying to say. I don't care if you swear or not, I'm just expressing my opinion, when I say it be more effective not to swear when discussing a person's beliefs with them. Swearing offends people, its that simple, you have to understand when, and when not to use swearing thats all I wanted to say.

Swearing offends SOME under certain premisis. Ok..........DUH!

So? Why do you feel the need to state the obvious?

"Time place and context" again, DUH, no kidding.

You are not the author of when and where it is or is not opropreate nor are you the sole rule giver as to when and where.

I understood your point. I did not miss it.

AT THIS TIME IN THIS THREAD IN THE CONTEXT OF THE RULES GIVEN BY THE OWNERS, I can cuss.

Now, IN THE CONTEXT OF a Thanksgiving dinner I was invited to when it is not my house, then it would not be, unless the person who invited me said it was ok.

Get my point?

TIME PLACE CONTEXT, yes, I agree. And in the context of THIS THREAD IN THIS FORUM ON THIS BORD I can say, "Fuck Falwell" or "Screw Jesus" or "Screw Brian37"

I defy you to show me where the rules in this segment of the fourms says, "Thou shalt not cuss".

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It is impossible NOT to

It is impossible NOT to offend theists. No matter how we word it, eloquantly or using all sorts of profanity, we are basically saying that they irrationally hold false beliefs. Everything they think is true, we deny. This offends people. The cursing (why is this called "cuss" anyway?) is just icing on a very large cake of offending views to them.


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KSMB wrote:It is impossible

KSMB wrote:
It is impossible NOT to offend theists. No matter how we word it, eloquantly or using all sorts of profanity, we are basically saying that they irrationally hold false beliefs. Everything they think is true, we deny. This offends people. The cursing (why is this called "cuss" anyway?) is just icing on a very large cake of offending views to them.

Yes I agree, but it is also true that we dont need to do it all the time either.

My point in this thread is that in the context of this thread it does demonstrate a point.

Anyone would look like a nutcase if they walked around all day shouting "SHIT FUCK DAMN SHIT FUCK DAMN" as much as they'd look nuts shouting, "GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO"

The point isnt that people do it or dont do it. But that we dont demand to each other to do what the other says. It is a personal issue and choice and is contextual.

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I completely agree with you

I completely agree with you Brian.


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Brian37 wrote:KSMB wrote:It

Brian37 wrote:
KSMB wrote:
It is impossible NOT to offend theists. No matter how we word it, eloquantly or using all sorts of profanity, we are basically saying that they irrationally hold false beliefs. Everything they think is true, we deny. This offends people. The cursing (why is this called "cuss" anyway?) is just icing on a very large cake of offending views to them.

Yes I agree, but it is also true that we dont need to do it all the time either.

My point in this thread is that in the context of this thread it does demonstrate a point.

Anyone would look like a nutcase if they walked around all day shouting "SHIT FUCK DAMN SHIT FUCK DAMN" as much as they'd look nuts shouting, "GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO"

The point isnt that people do it or dont do it. But that we dont demand to each other to do what the other says. It is a personal issue and choice and is contextual.

I agree. Its ultimately a personal choice on how you approach debates/conversations with theist. I prefer to avoid being very abrasive during my encounters with theist usually because as soon as insults start being leveled, any chance for mutual respect is gone, aswell as meaningful dialogue.


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(sorry had to do it!

(sorry had to do it! Sticking out tongue )

Anyway, if swearing bothers them so much, why do half the letters the RRS gets, and half the comments made by Christians in our Blasphemy videos along these lines:

"FUCK U U ASSHULL PEACE OF SHIT ATHEISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U R ALL GONG TO HELL AND BURN 4EVER 4 YOR STUPID BELIEFS. GOD IS REEL AND U JUST STUPID IF U DONT BELEEV IT!!!!!!"

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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melchisedec wrote:Brian37

melchisedec wrote:
Brian37 wrote:
KSMB wrote:
It is impossible NOT to offend theists. No matter how we word it, eloquantly or using all sorts of profanity, we are basically saying that they irrationally hold false beliefs. Everything they think is true, we deny. This offends people. The cursing (why is this called "cuss" anyway?) is just icing on a very large cake of offending views to them.

Yes I agree, but it is also true that we dont need to do it all the time either.

My point in this thread is that in the context of this thread it does demonstrate a point.

Anyone would look like a nutcase if they walked around all day shouting "SHIT FUCK DAMN SHIT FUCK DAMN" as much as they'd look nuts shouting, "GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO GOO"

The point isnt that people do it or dont do it. But that we dont demand to each other to do what the other says. It is a personal issue and choice and is contextual.

I agree. Its ultimately a personal choice on how you approach debates/conversations with theist. I prefer to avoid being very abrasive during my encounters with theist usually because as soon as insults start being leveled, any chance for mutual respect is gone, aswell as meaningful dialogue.

Respect is earned not given. You make he assumption that because we rant here that all Christians view it as hate. Not all do so don't make that assumption.

I do know plenty of Christians who would look at this and not take what we do personally. THOSE are the people I respond to very well with. The people who come here and shout "you f-ng jerks" do not deserve our respect and are pre disposed to ignore anything we have to say anyway.

I have had plenty of experiance with theists who can take the criticism and blasphemy and DO NOT veiw it as hate. It is not impossible for people to be mature enough to have freedom in language without shouting "you hate me".

South Park is a prime example of how we can criticise and poke fun of life without accusing the writers of hate. I am confident that there are mature Christians who do not see what we do here as hate. It is criticism it is venting and it does challenge people to think and YES this website allows for strong language.

Again, I aproach each converstation independantly and guague it as to how I will respond to that individual. But, to say we shouldn't ever respond with a "fuck you" is an unreasonable expectation and the people who we'd say that to do not diserve our respect anyway.

"Good cop" and "bad cop" are both viable tactics and neither should be discounted nor does either side need to assume the other is hated because of words.

I want to make it clear to everyone reading this. YES I do hate, but not for reasons believers want to think. I hate people who insist on running our goverment and laws off their version of deity. This is a bad idea for everyone including the believer.

Now, I also find all prior claims of deities AS A CLAIM, which is a seperate issue than liking the person, I do not find claims of the super natural to be credible. I find them to be comic book in nature and quite rediculous. BUT THOSE ARE SEPERATE ISSUES THAN LIKING THE INDIVIDUAL

1. What the person claims(ONE ISSUE)
2. The person as an individual seperate than the claim(COMPLETELY SEPERATE ISSUE)

Those are two different subjects.

I don't think we need to coddle believers and not give them credit for knowing the difference between those subjects. I think that does a disservice to humanity and fosters an aprin string society that cant debate because it doesnt want it's feelings hurt.

If we go being politically correct we are setting up goverment to be our brains insted of us challenging each other to think. I think there ARE theists willing to listen to our criticisms and dont take our blasphemy or strong language as hate. I think we CAN AND SHOULD give those credit who do believe but dont take it personally.

Thomas Jefferson DID believe in a generic god, but would not be offended if I said to him, "Tom, you are full of shit about that issue"

His next question would be, "Ok Brian, tell me why you think I am full of shit".

THERE ARE BELIEVERS WHO CAN HANDLE THIS and I dont think we need to coddle the ones that cant. I think we need to bring them to the same level as the ones who can handle it.

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Brian37 wrote:

Brian37 wrote:

Respect is earned not given.

Thats not my personal philosophy. I give everyone I encounter initially a level of respect. They can affirm that respect or disolve it via their own actions.

Quote:

You make he assumption that because we rant here that all Christians view it as hate. Not all do so don't make that assumption.

I certainly did not make that assumption. My comments were geared towards rough, abrasve tones when communicating. I also made it clear that its my own personal choice, not necessarily everyones cup of tea. I just think that when you inject certain language, it gets in the way of the dicussion at hand - for me atleast.

To me the language has to be relevant to the discussion. When someone says something like "Ok you fucking idiot, why can't you see x,y,z" , or "because jackass in order to have x, you need y". It doesn't help the conversation. Now I do acknowledge there are situations when someone is begging for those responses, lol. But to me often times they are just pointless cheapshots. I'm more interested in discussing the arguments at hand, I want to attack those arguments, not the agent of those arguments.

When I see someone continually using harsh language at me, its a sign that not only have I gotten underneath their skin. But they are vainly attempting to get under mine.


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melchisedec wrote:Brian37

melchisedec wrote:
Brian37 wrote:

Respect is earned not given.

Thats not my personal philosophy. I give everyone I encounter initially a level of respect. They can affirm that respect or disolve it via their own actions.

Quote:

You make he assumption that because we rant here that all Christians view it as hate. Not all do so don't make that assumption.

I certainly did not make that assumption. My comments were geared towards rough, abrasve tones when communicating. I also made it clear that its my own personal choice, not necessarily everyones cup of tea. I just think that when you inject certain language, it gets in the way of the dicussion at hand - for me atleast.

To me the language has to be relevant to the discussion. When someone says something like "Ok you fucking idiot, why can't you see x,y,z" , or "because jackass in order to have x, you need y". It doesn't help the conversation. Now I do acknowledge there are situations when someone is begging for those responses, lol. But to me often times they are just pointless cheapshots. I'm more interested in discussing the arguments at hand, I want to attack those arguments, not the agent of those arguments.

When I see someone continually using harsh language at me, its a sign that not only have I gotten underneath their skin. But they are vainly attempting to get under mine.

And that is you. I am not you. I give people respect too. But I dont give it to them when they come up to me and shout, "You peice of shit".

That is different than getting to know someone then after knowing them saying, "You are full of shit on this issue".

I dont assume that everyone who views this site is inmature and cant take it. To the ones who cry, "play nice", I say stay out of the kitchen if you cant stand the heat. THAT DOES NOT MEAN I HATE THEM. It simply means they should grow up.

There ARE as I have said, pleanty of believers that are mature enough not to take our venting, critisism or blasphemy personally. The ones who do need to grow up.

"I may vehimately dissagree with what you have to say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltair.

That is a mature person.

"YOU HURT MY FEELINGS, I CANT TAKE REALITY" those are the inmature people.

I am not against people believing. I can only present my voice as to why their belief is not credible. I have had many theistic friends who've I've said, "You are full of shit" on that CLAIM and did not take it as a personal attack on their right to believe or them as a person.

I do not discount those mature people. But, I will not coddle crybabies like the Muslims who threatened a cartoonist because of his cartoon. THAT IS INMATURE AND DOES NOT DISERVE RESPECT.

I dont see Christianity as having a pass either. If you act like a crybaby and cant take the heat, that is your problem, not mine. My suggestion to these people is to get over it. Life is not pretty all the time and neither are the words we use.

I do not see the need to always put up a Leave It To Beaver front when I am online or in public. I dont default to SCREAMING all the time either.

I think BOTH are important avenues to consider and neither should be discounted. I DO GIVE THEISTS CREDIT FOR HAVING BRAINS and I dont think we need to coddle people from our thoughts nor does it mean we hate them.

So again, do what you see fit. I am not asking you to be a clone of me. But do not expect me to play nice all the time simply because you dont like some of what is said here.

I give people credit and I think people can be mature enough to see the differenace.

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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