Danno21F's main argument, from his other posts, centers around the idea that it takes faith to be an atheist so believing and not believing are equal. The problem with this is that I have no reason to believe something without any evidence.

If you want to talk about his main comments I will.

He then says people can't argue with "Darwinian Fundamentalists." By that I will assume he means atheists with balls. Now there may be a few atheists who you can not argue with, but those behind the Blasphemy Challenge want discussion. To say a person can't argue with people who want to talk is idiotic.

If anyone is going to say they are right on a topic they are going to sound or be arrogant every so often. This would go for the people who want to say there is no right answer of every answer is right also. Basically anyone who makes a claim, but that doesn’t those people “enjoy toying with people.”

I am kind of surprised he knows what a bell curve is when he doesn’t know there are theist who say evolution is a good theory if not scientific fact, but I guess if he heard the word Darwinian in school he would pick up a few more. What he is saying is that anyone making a claim is ignorant. That is an odd statement to make as if you want to make a claim then you have to put yourself in that ignorant part of the bell curve as well.

Now I’ll look at what you are saying.

A lot of people won’t get that kind of response from me right from the start, but if Christianity is true Pascal’s Wager would make baby Jesus cry.

I was the kind of atheist that was a relativist about knowledge and wanted to be tolerant of everything on earth, then I thought about it. One that sounds like I smoked too much pot or something. Two if a person tolerates everything they are walked all over and basically end up not being able to say someone is wrong or simply no. Third no one can argue for relativism, as soon as you start you have to give up because the other guy is right or also wrong however you want to put it. Not to mention any idea of knowledge becomes completely pointless. The ideas of why no one can argue for relativism applies to tolerance as the person would be intolerant of someone not tolerating everything.

Feel free to pick apart Danno21F’s argument that wasn’t really my point in writing this comment. I’m glad you managed to get in a bit of my concern, thanks for the response. I guess I wasn’t clear about the whole use of inappropriate language. I have no problem with that sort of language, until it is directed at someone/something. This shows hatred and I don’t see how swearing at a Christian, or putting down their beliefs by using this type of language is going to motivate them to search out other views. I see a comment on this site like “Fuck Religion” or “Fuck the Holy Spirit” and I wonder what exactly they expect to get from that? Fellow atheists will of course pat them on the back, and say “well done” but was that the purpose of this site? Maybe I can help explain the whole thrashing/criticizing as well. I also said “point out the flaws and contradictions.” By trashing I meant simply saying things like “Christianity is so fucking stupid, the Bible is completely wrong.” When we criticize something we should support it with findings and evidence. Now I’m not saying the people here don’t do that, I’m just saying maybe we drop the rudeness from it. Actually I’m suggesting that instead of being offensive we take a critical approach to this. Explain why the Bible is wrong, explain why religion is so dangerous, and explain things like evolution. A believer will be much more willing to sit down and learn with someone who isn’t jumping down his or her throats, constantly telling them how stupid their entire belief system is. All I want is awareness. And the message will spread faster and receive much more respect if it’s a bit (or a lot) more mature.

You go on to talk about tolerance. I was just wondering if that’s the message you got from my first comment.

Thanks for the discussion.

---Again sorry for any grammar mistakes

*sigh* I suppose. I'm impatient with people who get their panties in a twist over mere words. If you're upset with the jocular treatment of abuse of women that is implicit in "pimp slap" you should take the author to task directly for publishing that idea. "Hoe" is of course slang for "whore" which is only a bad word because of christian prudery about the sex trade.

It's all a small price to pay for having a site where atheists can speak their minds freely.

I think you guys are failing to see my point. The Idea that this site uses such offensive language can make an already "bad" idea (atheism) even worse. You can preach all you want to the choir, but I suggest you reach out to the masses. I myself completely understand where you're coming from, and love the passion shown in the posts here. However, I think the purpose of this site is to bring awareness, am I correct? It seems you guys do in fact get a lot of response, which I have to say good job! I think you guys now have to look at the responsibility you have. Instead of simply offending people, educate them. Instead of just getting into dead-end arguments, spend the time supporting this wonderful idea you all have. I love the effort and passion you all put into this, but I think it can be taken much further, and I know you guys have the ability do it.

Geez I just realized that many of the comments you are referring to are from youtubers not even people of this site.

Any forum that limits character limits like youtube does is likely to degenerate into a one liner brigade. They also don't alert you to replies of your comments.

Comments that should be like this:

"Why do you believe that Jesus was the son of God? What sort of proof do you have for the existence of Jesus?"

turn out like this:

"I deny the fucking Holy spirit. Some people are idiots!"

Youtube comments section, "How good people turn bad." (shit, reminds me of religion)

You don't mind swearing as long as it isn't directed at someone/something? Man, that eliminates almost all of my swearing. "Fuck religion" and "Fuck the Holy Spirit" mean exactly that. Fuck them. I certainly don't give a shit about them. I don't think anyone's looking for back pats, they're just dismissing it all in a fairly unequivocal manner. Maybe it's just because my daily vocabulary has a healthy dose of swear words, but I don't really take offense to them. The pimp slap thing is fairly offensive to me, but I don't say anything because who fucking cares? I know noone here means it in the way that relates to violence against women.

We do that. There are numerous threads on here that explain why the Bible is wrong, explain why religion is so dangerous, and explain things like evolution.
Sometimes bad language will creep in, whether it's from frustration, anger or "fucking" being a very effective adjective.

This is a forum made by atheists as a way of uniting us, it's not a fucking love-in for theists who are scawed of bad words. Besides, as Sapient pointed out, there is a place on here for friendly debate sans foul language.

Honestly I have made it a rule of thumb to refer to fucking censorship as only that, but that is just me asserting the idea I can say whatever I want. I do it at even hints of it, the idea doesn't always reflect what you are saying.

The basic idea is "honey attracts more flies then vinegar" right?

I think a part of this is to herd all these freethinking cats and making the point that criticism of religion can be done. Yes you already said you are for that, but no matter how you word the message it isn’t something that goes down easy. I can cut out some cussing in a real argument, but that’s all the sugar coating a person is going to get from me.

I come at this subject from a philosophic view point with science for facts. Both of those things deal with the pursuit of knowledge. Personally I don’t think knowledge is all about making friends. A professor at my college said it well, “In life you can have two things. Knowledge or friends, but not both.” Arguably you could have a few friends and still go for knowledge, but they will probably be the same kind of person as you. That isn’t necessarily a reflection of the squads view point, but that is how I personally approach ideas of knowledge.

It isn’t like I take the idea lightly either. I have seen hints of the implications in my life, but it is just the tip of the ice berg and I’m well aware of it.

If that doesn’t tell you what I’m saying here is one last way I can drive the point home.

I once heard Richard Dawkins referred to as evolution’s pitbull. While evolution is not an atheist only idea in respect to the way Dawkins goes about his atheism I don’t care if I make him look like a cuddly bunny rabbit. Please note I still think he is a pretty nice guy, but the pitbull thing is how others seem to view him.

I thought I would add if you think there is another nicer ways to convince people of your atheist ideas go for it. Maybe start your own group, but I have seen members of the squad be very nice to people. This forum even has a "Killing Them With Kindness" section.

Excuse my offensive language but what the fuck? I'm sorry Brian37 was that comment an actual response to my statements?

It’s as if you guys think I'm attacking you, and you have to defend yourselves against me. I am one of you. My simple point, that obviously is not getting through is that in no way is using offensive language going to attract people to atheism. I understand that either way it’s going to be hard to get the message across, but I think there is a much easier and more effective way to express that message. Maybe the examples of The God Delusion, The End of Faith, and Letter to a Christian Nation will help make my point. We all agree that those are 3 awesome books right? I don't think any of you would disagree when I say that these books take a much more effective and appropriate approach to solving this problem, then simply saying, "Fuck the Holy Ghost"

And by no means am I calling for censorship. I believe I’ve already posted that, but I guess Brian37 didn’t read my other comments. Please if you think using offensive language is going to help your cause, continue doing so. I however believe Harris and Dawkins have done a much better job of pointing out the flaws, contradictions, and dangers with religion.

---Thanks for the continued discussion

After they've listened, the act of listening is over, so in fact I think in both cases they heard the message. You should know we took great care to ask people to blaspheme the holy spirit in the least offensive way possible. We could've asked everyone to say "Fucking Holy Spirit sucks cock" but we purposefully made this campaign as pleasant as possible while still achieving the act of blasphemy. We also told people to make their videos their own.

Now I think it's you who's not seeing our point, which is that we do in fact do that and we do it often. To deny that we're not making "reasonable attempts" at starting a discourse is to miss most of the activity here. See many of our discussions with theists on our show (don't see youtube comments): http://www.rationalresponders.com/rrs_free_shows

And I don't think one of those things is refraining from what is commonly considered offensive. Keep in mind you are free to create your own site if you think you have a vision for the world that will be better received.

Asking people to blasphemy the Holy Spirit and then writing them to tell them to take out some of their blasphemy is not something I am willing to do. My integrity is worth more to me than the thoughts of a brainwashed person incapable of seeing that words are nothing without connotation. The connotation of these videos is bad enough, no matter what words are used. Think about it...

I = not offensive
deny = not offensive
the = not offensive
holy = not offensive
spirit = not offensive

I deny the holy spirit = offensive

I'm glad, and we're receptive to constructive criticism which you are offering, and I appreciate that. I just don't exactly agree.

There are also religious people abandoning religion.

I'm not in opposition to people who are religious. In fact it's precisely because I'm not in opposition to them that I will do whatever it takes to help them restore their mental freedom.

LOL! You don't know Matt well enough, most people here do. That's his retarded thing, I have no idea why he does it, I think he thinks it's funny. He's had this act for quite some time, see his youtube videos. I was making a witty comment specifically directed at him as it pertains to him. Had it been anybody else I wouldn't say such a thing. A good example of how a similar comment might pertain to you (so you can see the wit) would be if you came on this board next week and started talking about a 3 hour conversation with a Christian that you had. If I said "You didn't curse at her at all, did you?" I would hope you would find some humor in that, I have a very dry sense of humor.

I curse freely and see no problem with that. Additionally you should know that the comments from myself in that thread other than my "pimp slap" comment to Matt were toned down severely. I saw many a moron in those response videos and purposefully was as nice as I could be with any commentary I gave, which is why you don't see much commenting on my side.

And one last additional FYI, I'm not sure if you realize but we're rather loose on who can use a Rational Response Squad badge behind their head. You can use one as well as long as you agree with this list: http://www.rationalresponders.com/hamurookis_irrational_precepts

That was another generalization again. Try directing your thoughts at specific posters.

1. I don't think you're attacking me, nor do I think void did, or glamour kat did, and I know Brian well enough to gather he probably feels the same.

2. Just being an atheist doesn't make you "one of" us so much that we shouldn't vocalize disagreements. Christians are "one of us" as well, we are all human.

We got your point, it seems most of us disagree. Furthermore we're not here to attract people to atheism, we couldn't give two shits about atheism, we care about people not being theist. Now if people are too stupid to see that theists curse just as much as atheists (if not more), then they got bigger problems then merely believing in invisible unproven dieties.

In none of the videos put out by the core of the Rational Response Squad did anyone say "Fuck the holy spirit" however doing so is an act of blasphemy and would be completely the point of this whole project. Your argument should be with the people who are saying this in their videos.

Offensive language is provocative and emphasizes points. It's just as likely to drive a stern point home and help a cause as much as it is to turn someone away from it. In fact I can think of many examples when it has done both. They may leave the video of the person cursing feeling disgusted, however may ponder the point later on their own as a point of obvious importance to that individual due to the harsh language.

Hey, we agree!

I actually gave a little lawl there, so I guess your sense of humour works for me. Actually I would make a video rejecting the holy ghost, however I have no video camera, or webcam to help me do this. As you could imagine it becomes a bit difficult to make a video when you lack the equipment.

"I am one of you" only in label, but I am not a clone of you. I understand that you understand what it is like to be an atheist. I didnt ever in my post suggest you not criticise.

I am merely adding on that in the process of offering criticism of anyone, be they religious or atheist, that we do not resort to using goverment to replace our own brains.

I am not accusing you of anything. I just wanted to add that there is a way to make progress and a way not to. It is a bad idea for the theist or atheist to use government to play thought police. It is not an attack on you or anyone. Merely a warning to not use government to play thought police.

Like I said above you can hear a bunch of free shows here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/rrs_free_shows

New shows air every Friday night at 9pm est and you can tune in from the left hand side of the screen (see icons of audio players). We hang out in the two chatrooms listed there as well, about 50 people generally show up. The shows are prerecorded and you can hang out when we record them. Look for recording date information near the time of broadcast which is always a Saturday from noon-2 am est. We record about 4-6 shows per session.

Brian as I said I don't think we should get involved with this again but I guess you would like too. You again are failing to see my point. I'm not trying to deny anyones right to swear. Also I have no problem with fuck, whore, or pimp. I'm simply saying that I don't think it is necessary to get ones message across. I again don't have a problem with someone using this language to voice their message. The language does not offend me. But I understand that it offends others. If I were attempting to get my message across to a certain audience i'm going to of course play to the crowd, and if "fuck the holy ghost" doesn't work for them I'm not going to use it. See I think this is where people are getting mixed up with what i'm trying to say. I don't care if you swear or not, I'm just expressing my opinion, when I say it be more effective not to swear when discussing a person's beliefs with them. Swearing offends people, its that simple, you have to understand when, and when not to use swearing thats all I wanted to say.

It is impossible NOT to offend theists. No matter how we word it, eloquantly or using all sorts of profanity, we are basically saying that they irrationally hold false beliefs. Everything they think is true, we deny. This offends people. The cursing (why is this called "cuss" anyway?) is just icing on a very large cake of offending views to them.

I completely agree with you Brian.

(sorry had to do it! )

Anyway, if swearing bothers them so much, why do half the letters the RRS gets, and half the comments made by Christians in our Blasphemy videos along these lines:

"FUCK U U ASSHULL PEACE OF SHIT ATHEISTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! U R ALL GONG TO HELL AND BURN 4EVER 4 YOR STUPID BELIEFS. GOD IS REEL AND U JUST STUPID IF U DONT BELEEV IT!!!!!!"

Thats not my personal philosophy. I give everyone I encounter initially a level of respect. They can affirm that respect or disolve it via their own actions.

I certainly did not make that assumption. My comments were geared towards rough, abrasve tones when communicating. I also made it clear that its my own personal choice, not necessarily everyones cup of tea. I just think that when you inject certain language, it gets in the way of the dicussion at hand - for me atleast.

To me the language has to be relevant to the discussion. When someone says something like "Ok you fucking idiot, why can't you see x,y,z" , or "because jackass in order to have x, you need y". It doesn't help the conversation. Now I do acknowledge there are situations when someone is begging for those responses, lol. But to me often times they are just pointless cheapshots. I'm more interested in discussing the arguments at hand, I want to attack those arguments, not the agent of those arguments.

When I see someone continually using harsh language at me, its a sign that not only have I gotten underneath their skin. But they are vainly attempting to get under mine.